Nobody Should Believe Me

We're unlocking an episode from the subscriber feed. Enjoy!

***

This is the first part of Andrea and Dr. Bex’s coverage of the Peacock documentary series “Anatomy of Lies”. The show dives into the story of Elisabeth Finch, who was best known as a head writer on “Grey’s Anatomy”, and the lies that her life was built on. In their conversation about the first part of this docuseries, Andrea and Dr. Bex discuss Munchausen syndrome, the impact of false narratives in storytelling, particularly when it comes to claims of personal trauma, and how Finch’s claims intersected with the public discourse of the Me Too era.

***

Listen to the rest of this series: https://www.patreon.com/collection/1433425

Watch “Anatomy of Lies”: https://www.peacocktv.com/watch-online/tv/anatomy-of-lies/6024435431465947112

Order Andrea's new book The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy. 

Click here to view our sponsors. Remember that using our codes helps advertisers know you’re listening and helps us keep making the show!  

Subscribe on YouTube where we have full episodes and lots of bonus content. 

Follow Andrea on Instagram: @andreadunlop

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For more information and resources on Munchausen by Proxy, please visit MunchausenSupport.com

The American Professional Society on the Abuse of Children’s MBP Practice Guidelines can be downloaded here.

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

S4: EP 1 — One of the Good Ones

Karoline built her life around her husband's career as a Colorado Springs police officer. The family was proud of his service, until they learned that the only person he was serving was himself.  

***

Listen to Betrayal: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/betrayal-weekly/id1615637724

Follow Betrayal on Instagram at @betrayalpod. 

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In our season finale, Andrea comes face-to-face with Lisa McDaniel, the woman at the center of this story when she arrives on her doorstep with television journalist Meredith Anderson to request an interview. 

As they process the revealing conversation with Mishelle, they reflect on the ripple effects that this story has already had on the McDaniel family, and for Lisa’s former employer, the Guthy-Jackson Foundations. 

 Drawing parallels between Collin’s case and that of Olivia Gant, Andrea speaks with Melissa Kalish, the lead detective in the investigation of Kelly Turner, Olivia’s mother for insight and, perhaps, a roadmap.

Mishelle reflects on what justice would mean for her, as she and her aunt Sabrina reclaim their memories of Collin. 

***

Justice for Collin: Contact Birmingham PD

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1tEg2mpbrwNJnuVMNdbHANCofEFYvH9_bO5MULHUxqLs/edit

Order Andrea's new book The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy. 

Click here to view our sponsors. Remember that using our codes helps advertisers know you’re listening and helps us keep making the show!  

Subscribe on YouTube where we have full episodes and lots of bonus content. 

Follow Andrea on Instagram: @andreadunlop

Buy Andrea's books here. 

For more information and resources on Munchausen by Proxy, please visit MunchausenSupport.com

The American Professional Society on the Abuse of Children’s MBP Practice Guidelines can be downloaded here. 

***

This season covers sensitive subject matter involving allegations of child abuse, medical child abuse (also known as Munchausen by proxy), and the death of a minor. All information presented is based on court records, first-person interviews, contemporaneous documentation, and publicly available sources.

The podcast includes personal statements and perspectives from individuals directly involved in or affected by these events. These accounts represent their experiences and interpretations, and some statements reflect opinions that may be emotionally charged. Where appropriate, the reporting team has verified claims through official records or corroborating sources.

Nothing in this podcast should be interpreted as a legal conclusion or diagnosis. All subjects are presumed innocent unless convicted in a court of law. This podcast is intended for informational and public interest purposes.

This podcast contains audio excerpts from two phone conversations recorded in the states of Georgia and Alabama, respectively. Both recordings were obtained by a third-party source, who acted in accordance with the relevant one-party consent laws of those states, which allow for the lawful recording of a conversation with the consent of one participant.

These recordings were subsequently shared with the producers of this podcast after the fact, and were not made by or at the direction of the podcast team or its parent organization.

The podcast producers have made good-faith efforts to confirm the legal compliance of the original recordings, and are presenting these materials in the context of public interest reporting. The inclusion of this audio is intended for journalistic, educational, and documentary purposes in alignment with the principles of fair use and First Amendment protections.

Listeners are advised that the views expressed in the recordings are those of the individuals speaking and do not necessarily reflect the views of the producers or affiliated entities.

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Mishelle recounts how she and her sister, Angellyn, stumbled upon their past medical and court records while helping Lisa and Carey move. This discovery prompted the sisters to reach out to people who could offer a perspective unfiltered by their mother’s influence: Judy, the PICU nurse who once treated Angellyn, and Bea Yorker, the Munchausen by proxy expert who testified against Lisa more than twenty years ago. 

***

Justice for Collin: Contact Birmingham PD

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1tEg2mpbrwNJnuVMNdbHANCofEFYvH9_bO5MULHUxqLs/edit

Order Andrea's new book The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy. 

Click here to view our sponsors. Remember that using our codes helps advertisers know you’re listening and helps us keep making the show!  

Subscribe on YouTube where we have full episodes and lots of bonus content. 

Follow Andrea on Instagram: @andreadunlop

Buy Andrea's books here. 

For more information and resources on Munchausen by Proxy, please visit MunchausenSupport.com

The American Professional Society on the Abuse of Children’s MBP Practice Guidelines can be downloaded here. 

***

This season covers sensitive subject matter involving allegations of child abuse, medical child abuse (also known as Munchausen by proxy), and the death of a minor. All information presented is based on court records, first-person interviews, contemporaneous documentation, and publicly available sources.

The podcast includes personal statements and perspectives from individuals directly involved in or affected by these events. These accounts represent their experiences and interpretations, and some statements reflect opinions that may be emotionally charged. Where appropriate, the reporting team has verified claims through official records or corroborating sources.

Nothing in this podcast should be interpreted as a legal conclusion or diagnosis. All subjects are presumed innocent unless convicted in a court of law. This podcast is intended for informational and public interest purposes.

This podcast contains audio excerpts from two phone conversations recorded in the states of Georgia and Alabama, respectively. Both recordings were obtained by a third-party source, who acted in accordance with the relevant one-party consent laws of those states, which allow for the lawful recording of a conversation with the consent of one participant.

These recordings were subsequently shared with the producers of this podcast after the fact, and were not made by or at the direction of the podcast team or its parent organization.

The podcast producers have made good-faith efforts to confirm the legal compliance of the original recordings, and are presenting these materials in the context of public interest reporting. The inclusion of this audio is intended for journalistic, educational, and documentary purposes in alignment with the principles of fair use and First Amendment protections.

Listeners are advised that the views expressed in the recordings are those of the individuals speaking and do not necessarily reflect the views of the producers or affiliated entities.

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

On this week’s episode, we hear Mishelle’s phone call with Dr. Jayne Ness, Collin’s treating physician, who shares concerning insights into Collin’s treatment—notably, that she was never certain Collin had NMO and that she had serious concerns for abuse. Andrea then speaks with Dr. Kenneth Feldman, a Child Abuse Pediatrician and Clinical Professor of Pediatrics at the University of Washington, about how physicians become entangled with Munchausen by Proxy perpetrators. Dr. Feldman also discusses the online behavior of perpetrators.

Andrea then traces Lisa’s advocacy efforts following Collin’s death, starting with a now-defunct 501(c)(3) organization and eventually leading to her work with the Guthy Jackson Foundation. Mishelle goes on to describe how, after Collin’s passing, Lisa began faking her own illness. 

***

Justice for Collin: Contact Birmingham PD

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1tEg2mpbrwNJnuVMNdbHANCofEFYvH9_bO5MULHUxqLs/edit

Andrea’s August 1st event with Gregg Olsen: https://www.libertybaybooks.com/event/west-sound-crime-con-2025-local-authors-gregg-olsen-and-andrea-dunlop

Order Andrea's new book The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy. 

Click here to view our sponsors. Remember that using our codes helps advertisers know you’re listening and helps us keep making the show!  

Subscribe on YouTube where we have full episodes and lots of bonus content. 

Follow Andrea on Instagram: @andreadunlop

Buy Andrea's books here. 

For more information and resources on Munchausen by Proxy, please visit MunchausenSupport.com

The American Professional Society on the Abuse of Children’s MBP Practice Guidelines can be downloaded here. 

***

This season covers sensitive subject matter involving allegations of child abuse, medical child abuse (also known as Munchausen by proxy), and the death of a minor. All information presented is based on court records, first-person interviews, contemporaneous documentation, and publicly available sources.

The podcast includes personal statements and perspectives from individuals directly involved in or affected by these events. These accounts represent their experiences and interpretations, and some statements reflect opinions that may be emotionally charged. Where appropriate, the reporting team has verified claims through official records or corroborating sources.

Nothing in this podcast should be interpreted as a legal conclusion or diagnosis. All subjects are presumed innocent unless convicted in a court of law. This podcast is intended for informational and public interest purposes.

This podcast contains audio excerpts from two phone conversations recorded in the states of Georgia and Alabama, respectively. Both recordings were obtained by a third-party source, who acted in accordance with the relevant one-party consent laws of those states, which allow for the lawful recording of a conversation with the consent of one participant.

These recordings were subsequently shared with the producers of this podcast after the fact, and were not made by or at the direction of the podcast team or its parent organization.

The podcast producers have made good-faith efforts to confirm the legal compliance of the original recordings, and are presenting these materials in the context of public interest reporting. The inclusion of this audio is intended for journalistic, educational, and documentary purposes in alignment with the principles of fair use and First Amendment protections.

Listeners are advised that the views expressed in the recordings are those of the individuals speaking and do not necessarily reflect the views of the producers or affiliated entities.

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

As Lisa escalates Collin’s medication regimen and pushing for risky experimental treatments, we examine the gulf between Lisa’s reports of Collin’s symptoms and known cases of NMO.  

We also see the beginning of Lisa’s connection to the Guthy Jackson Foundation, a high-profile non-profit, dedicated to NMO awareness and research. Collin’s condition rapidly declines, and he is placed on hospice care. Sabrina and Mishelle share heartbreaking memories of Collin’s final days, offering a deeply emotional and personal perspective on this tragic chapter.

***

If you or someone you know is struggling, please call 988 or visit https://988lifeline.org/

***

Justice for Collin: Contact Birmingham PD

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1tEg2mpbrwNJnuVMNdbHANCofEFYvH9_bO5MULHUxqLs/edit

Andrea’s August 1st event with Gregg Olsen: https://www.libertybaybooks.com/event/west-sound-crime-con-2025-local-authors-gregg-olsen-and-andrea-dunlop

Order Andrea's new book The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy. 

Click here to view our sponsors. Remember that using our codes helps advertisers know you’re listening and helps us keep making the show!  

Subscribe on YouTube where we have full episodes and lots of bonus content. 

Follow Andrea on Instagram: @andreadunlop

Buy Andrea's books here. 

For more information and resources on Munchausen by Proxy, please visit MunchausenSupport.com

The American Professional Society on the Abuse of Children’s MBP Practice Guidelines can be downloaded here. 

***

This season covers sensitive subject matter involving allegations of child abuse, medical child abuse (also known as Munchausen by proxy), and the death of a minor. All information presented is based on court records, first-person interviews, contemporaneous documentation, and publicly available sources.

The podcast includes personal statements and perspectives from individuals directly involved in or affected by these events. These accounts represent their experiences and interpretations, and some statements reflect opinions that may be emotionally charged. Where appropriate, the reporting team has verified claims through official records or corroborating sources.

Nothing in this podcast should be interpreted as a legal conclusion or diagnosis. All subjects are presumed innocent unless convicted in a court of law. This podcast is intended for informational and public interest purposes.

This podcast contains audio excerpts from two phone conversations recorded in the states of Georgia and Alabama, respectively. Both recordings were obtained by a third-party source, who acted in accordance with the relevant one-party consent laws of those states, which allow for the lawful recording of a conversation with the consent of one participant.

These recordings were subsequently shared with the producers of this podcast after the fact, and were not made by or at the direction of the podcast team or its parent organization.

The podcast producers have made good-faith efforts to confirm the legal compliance of the original recordings, and are presenting these materials in the context of public interest reporting. The inclusion of this audio is intended for journalistic, educational, and documentary purposes in alignment with the principles of fair use and First Amendment protections.

Listeners are advised that the views expressed in the recordings are those of the individuals speaking and do not necessarily reflect the views of the producers or affiliated entities.

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Mishelle describes her brother Collin as a vibrant little boy who loved to joke around and make people laugh. All of that changed, seemingly overnight. Sabrina and Mishelle walk Andrea through their memory of the timeline of Collin’s symptoms, and his eventual diagnosis with NMO (Neuromyelitis Optica). This recounting of events exposes some discrepancies in the family’s memory and Lisa’s public story, as well as a rapid escalation in the medication given to Collin.

We’re introduced to Lisa’s blog on CaringBridge, where she kept a detailed account of Collin’s medical journey. She quickly begins referring to NMO as a fatal disease, even mentioning the possibility of hospice care. However, this portrayal is challenged by a pediatric neuroimmunologist we’ll refer to as Dr. K, who specializes in NMO. Dr. K offers a clear explanation of what Neuromyelitis Optica is, the diagnostic criteria, and just how rare the condition is—particularly in children.

As suspicions grow within their tight-knit community and the family’s financial support runs dry, the McDaniels relocate to Alabama to seek care from NMO expert Dr. Jayne Ness.

***

Justice for Collin: Contact Birmingham PD

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1tEg2mpbrwNJnuVMNdbHANCofEFYvH9_bO5MULHUxqLs/edit

Andrea’s August 1st event with Gregg Olsen: https://www.libertybaybooks.com/event/west-sound-crime-con-2025-local-authors-gregg-olsen-and-andrea-dunlop

Order Andrea's new book The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy. 

Click here to view our sponsors. Remember that using our codes helps advertisers know you’re listening and helps us keep making the show!  

Subscribe on YouTube where we have full episodes and lots of bonus content. 

Follow Andrea on Instagram: @andreadunlop

Buy Andrea's books here. 

For more information and resources on Munchausen by Proxy, please visit MunchausenSupport.com

The American Professional Society on the Abuse of Children’s MBP Practice Guidelines can be downloaded here. 

***

This season covers sensitive subject matter involving allegations of child abuse, medical child abuse (also known as Munchausen by proxy), and the death of a minor. All information presented is based on court records, first-person interviews, contemporaneous documentation, and publicly available sources.

The podcast includes personal statements and perspectives from individuals directly involved in or affected by these events. These accounts represent their experiences and interpretations, and some statements reflect opinions that may be emotionally charged. Where appropriate, the reporting team has verified claims through official records or corroborating sources.

Nothing in this podcast should be interpreted as a legal conclusion or diagnosis. All subjects are presumed innocent unless convicted in a court of law. This podcast is intended for informational and public interest purposes.

This podcast contains audio excerpts from two phone conversations recorded in the states of Georgia and Alabama, respectively. Both recordings were obtained by a third-party source, who acted in accordance with the relevant one-party consent laws of those states, which allow for the lawful recording of a conversation with the consent of one participant.

These recordings were subsequently shared with the producers of this podcast after the fact, and were not made by or at the direction of the podcast team or its parent organization.

The podcast producers have made good-faith efforts to confirm the legal compliance of the original recordings, and are presenting these materials in the context of public interest reporting. The inclusion of this audio is intended for journalistic, educational, and documentary purposes in alignment with the principles of fair use and First Amendment protections.

Listeners are advised that the views expressed in the recordings are those of the individuals speaking and do not necessarily reflect the views of the producers or affiliated entities.

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

We begin this week’s episode with a young Mishelle struggling to adjust to life with her grandparents, finding it difficult to accept both the separation from her parents and the reality of what her mother had done. Meanwhile, Lisa is in the midst of a police investigation, undergoing a psychological evaluation and attending therapy.

We hear from Bea Yorker—an expert in Munchausen by Proxy and the President of Munchausen Support—and Dr. Mary Sanders, a Clinical Professor of Psychiatry and Behavioral Sciences at Stanford University and a member of APSAC’s Munchausen by Proxy committee. They explain what should have been considered during Lisa’s evaluation and what it truly means to "treat" someone with Munchausen by Proxy.

Armed with letters from therapists attesting to her remorse, Lisa turns to the online forum MAMA (Mothers Against Munchausen Allegations) to build her case for court. There, she begins digging for information on enemy number one: Bea Yorker. 

***

Justice for Collin: Contact Birmingham PD

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1tEg2mpbrwNJnuVMNdbHANCofEFYvH9_bO5MULHUxqLs/edit

Order Andrea's new book The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy. 

Click here to view our sponsors. Remember that using our codes helps advertisers know you’re listening and helps us keep making the show!  

Subscribe on YouTube where we have full episodes and lots of bonus content. 

Follow Andrea on Instagram: @andreadunlop

Buy Andrea's books here. 

For more information and resources on Munchausen by Proxy, please visit MunchausenSupport.com

The American Professional Society on the Abuse of Children’s MBP Practice Guidelines can be downloaded here. 

***

This season covers sensitive subject matter involving allegations of child abuse, medical child abuse (also known as Munchausen by proxy), and the death of a minor. All information presented is based on court records, first-person interviews, contemporaneous documentation, and publicly available sources.

The podcast includes personal statements and perspectives from individuals directly involved in or affected by these events. These accounts represent their experiences and interpretations, and some statements reflect opinions that may be emotionally charged. Where appropriate, the reporting team has verified claims through official records or corroborating sources.

Nothing in this podcast should be interpreted as a legal conclusion or diagnosis. All subjects are presumed innocent unless convicted in a court of law. This podcast is intended for informational and public interest purposes.

This podcast contains audio excerpts from two phone conversations recorded in the states of Georgia and Alabama, respectively. Both recordings were obtained by a third-party source, who acted in accordance with the relevant one-party consent laws of those states, which allow for the lawful recording of a conversation with the consent of one participant.

These recordings were subsequently shared with the producers of this podcast after the fact, and were not made by or at the direction of the podcast team or its parent organization.

The podcast producers have made good-faith efforts to confirm the legal compliance of the original recordings, and are presenting these materials in the context of public interest reporting. The inclusion of this audio is intended for journalistic, educational, and documentary purposes in alignment with the principles of fair use and First Amendment protections.

Listeners are advised that the views expressed in the recordings are those of the individuals speaking and do not necessarily reflect the views of the producers or affiliated entities.

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Lisa’s second child, Angellyn, was born prematurely and in a medically fragile state. Mishelle and her aunt Sabrina recount a troubling pattern: just as Angellyn would be cleared for hospital discharge, doctors would abruptly reverse course, warning that she might not survive the night.

Andrea speaks to a nurse, “Judy”, who was working in the Pediatric Intensive Care Unit (PICU) at the time of Angellyn’s hospitalizations. Judy walks us through the medical team’s growing suspicions and their decision to install surveillance cameras in Angellyn’s hospital room. The footage reveals deeply disturbing behavior by Lisa and Carey’s utter compliance, prompting an investigation into the parents. Ultimately, custody of both Mishelle and Angellyn was revoked, and the children were placed with their maternal grandparents.

***

Justice for Collin: Contact Birmingham PD

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1tEg2mpbrwNJnuVMNdbHANCofEFYvH9_bO5MULHUxqLs/edit

Order Andrea's new book The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy. 

Click here to view our sponsors. Remember that using our codes helps advertisers know you’re listening and helps us keep making the show!  

Subscribe on YouTube where we have full episodes and lots of bonus content. 

Follow Andrea on Instagram: @andreadunlop

Buy Andrea's books here. 

For more information and resources on Munchausen by Proxy, please visit MunchausenSupport.com

The American Professional Society on the Abuse of Children’s MBP Practice Guidelines can be downloaded here. 

***

This season covers sensitive subject matter involving allegations of child abuse, medical child abuse (also known as Munchausen by proxy), and the death of a minor. All information presented is based on court records, first-person interviews, contemporaneous documentation, and publicly available sources.

The podcast includes personal statements and perspectives from individuals directly involved in or affected by these events. These accounts represent their experiences and interpretations, and some statements reflect opinions that may be emotionally charged. Where appropriate, the reporting team has verified claims through official records or corroborating sources.

Nothing in this podcast should be interpreted as a legal conclusion or diagnosis. All subjects are presumed innocent unless convicted in a court of law. This podcast is intended for informational and public interest purposes.

This podcast contains audio excerpts from two phone conversations recorded in the states of Georgia and Alabama, respectively. Both recordings were obtained by a third-party source, who acted in accordance with the relevant one-party consent laws of those states, which allow for the lawful recording of a conversation with the consent of one participant.

These recordings were subsequently shared with the producers of this podcast after the fact, and were not made by or at the direction of the podcast team or its parent organization.

The podcast producers have made good-faith efforts to confirm the legal compliance of the original recordings, and are presenting these materials in the context of public interest reporting. The inclusion of this audio is intended for journalistic, educational, and documentary purposes in alignment with the principles of fair use and First Amendment protections.

Listeners are advised that the views expressed in the recordings are those of the individuals speaking and do not necessarily reflect the views of the producers or affiliated entities.

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This season on Nobody Should Believe Me, we tell the story of Lisa McDaniel, who crafted a public image as the Director of Patient Advocacy at the Guthy Jackson Foundation while concealing her conviction for child abuse more than a decade ago.

We begin with an introduction to the McDaniel family: Lisa, her husband Carey, and their children—Mishelle, Angellyn, and Collin. While the unraveling of their family began when Collin was “diagnosed” with NMO (Neuromyelitis Optica), to understand the full story, we must go back to where it all began: Hazlehurst, Georgia.

Andrea and our producer Myrriah travel with Mishelle–Lisa’s courageous eldest daughter– to her mother’s hometown, where they sit down with Lisa’s younger sister, Sabrina. Sabrina recounts a childhood marked by emotional manipulation and physical abuse at the hands of her older sister. She walks us through Mishelle’s early years, how, as a baby, she was often left with relatives for days at a time, and then through Lisa’s troubled pregnancy with her second child, Angellyn.

Stay tuned through the end of the episode for a preview of what’s to come this season.

***

Justice for Collin: Contact Birmingham PD https://docs.google.com/document/d/1tEg2mpbrwNJnuVMNdbHANCofEFYvH9_bO5MULHUxqLs/edit

Order Andrea's new book The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy. 

Click here to view our sponsors. Remember that using our codes helps advertisers know you’re listening and helps us keep making the show!  

Subscribe on YouTube where we have full episodes and lots of bonus content. 

Follow Andrea on Instagram: @andreadunlop

Buy Andrea's books here. 

For more information and resources on Munchausen by Proxy, please visit MunchausenSupport.com

The American Professional Society on the Abuse of Children’s MBP Practice Guidelines can be downloaded here. 

***

This season covers sensitive subject matter involving allegations of child abuse, medical child abuse (also known as Munchausen by proxy), and the death of a minor. All information presented is based on court records, first-person interviews, contemporaneous documentation, and publicly available sources.

The podcast includes personal statements and perspectives from individuals directly involved in or affected by these events. These accounts represent their experiences and interpretations, and some statements reflect opinions that may be emotionally charged. Where appropriate, the reporting team has verified claims through official records or corroborating sources.

Nothing in this podcast should be interpreted as a legal conclusion or diagnosis. All subjects are presumed innocent unless convicted in a court of law. This podcast is intended for informational and public interest purposes.

This podcast contains audio excerpts from two phone conversations recorded in the states of Georgia and Alabama, respectively. Both recordings were obtained by a third-party source, who acted in accordance with the relevant one-party consent laws of those states, which allow for the lawful recording of a conversation with the consent of one participant.

These recordings were subsequently shared with the producers of this podcast after the fact, and were not made by or at the direction of the podcast team or its parent organization.

The podcast producers have made good-faith efforts to confirm the legal compliance of the original recordings, and are presenting these materials in the context of public interest reporting. The inclusion of this audio is intended for journalistic, educational, and documentary purposes in alignment with the principles of fair use and First Amendment protections.

Listeners are advised that the views expressed in the recordings are those of the individuals speaking and do not necessarily reflect the views of the producers or affiliated entities.

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices