Many men are now engaging in a variety of behaviours traditionally associated with femininity – such as trying to make their bodies look good, worrying about their fertility, and opening up about their emotions. But what is driving these shifts? And to what extent do such practices challenge conventional norms of masculinity, or reinforce them? In this episode, Prof Brendan Gough discusses his wide-ranging research on contemporary constructions of masculinity. 

We explore the pressures patriarchal societies place on men: to be fit and healthy, lean and muscular, sexually virile, and self-reliant, and how these combine with neoliberal expectations that disciplining our bodies and having good wellbeing is an individual responsibility. We also discuss the ways in which these norms are being subtly challenged and changed, for example through efforts to encourage men to be open and honest about their feelings and struggles such as depression, and provide support to one other, including in online communities. Brendan reflects on what can help to steer this change in healthy directions – and how spaces such as the Manosphere may be exacerbating men’s insecurities about their bodies. He also considers the strengths and weaknesses of the UK government’s new men’s health strategy and health promotion efforts aimed at men.

Brendan is a critical social psychologist and qualitative researcher based at Leeds Beckett University in the UK. Over several decades, he has published a wealth of research on men and masculinities, particularly in relation to health, lifestyle, and wellbeing.

• University profile page
• LinkedIn
• ‘Contemporary Masculinities: Embodiment, Emotion and Wellbeing’ (Palgrave Macmillan, 2018)
• ‘(In)Fertile Male Bodies: Masculinities and Lifestyle Management in Neoliberal Times’ (with Dr Esmée Hanna, Emerald, 2022)

Episode timeline

• Intro
• What sparked Brendan’s interest in masculinity (02:08-05:40)
• The positives as well as harms of online spaces (05:40-09:36)
• Men’s complex current relationship with gender equality (09:36-13:44)
• ‘Healthism’ and its connections to masculinity (13:44-15:40)
• The use of masculine norms in health promotion (15:40-19:55)
• The UK govt’s men’s healthy strategy (19:55-24:29)
• Break
• Men’s struggles with body image (24:41-28:53)
• How attention towards appearance is rationalised in masculine terms (28:53-32:00)
• ‘Metrosexuality’ and grooming practices (32:00-34:01)
• Pressures to have a lean and muscular body (34:01-36:18)
• The impact of infertility on men (36:18-41:39)
• Men’s bodies as machines (41:39-42:34)
• What helps men share their experiences of depression (42:34-45:58)
• The use of ‘masculine capital’ to legitimise vulnerability (45:58-47:57)
• The value of peer support (47:57-49:45)
• The influence of the manosphere (49:45-51:40)
• Conclusion (52:12-01:00:30)

More info

• Margaret Wetherell and Nigel Edley
• Andy’s Man Club
• Hybrid masculinity
• Dr Lucy Eldred
• Men’s Sheds UK
• UK Govt's Men’s Health Strategy for England
• Prof Paul Galdas
• Looksmaxxing
• Dr Matthew Hall – ‘Metrosexual masculinities’
• Teddy Boys
• New Romantics
• Dandies
• Pierre Bourdieu

Since 2021, Now and Men has been initiating conversations about changing masculinities and challenging norms. New episodes drop every month - listen wherever you get your podcasts, and share with anyone interested in men's role in gender equality!

Music: 'Now is time', courtesy of Chaps' Choir and Dom Stichbury.

Fathers on low-incomes and young fathers are often portrayed in media and politics as ‘feckless’ and ‘failing’. Father absence is blamed for a wide range of social problems, including crime, antisocial behaviour, and poor educational outcomes. These discourses have intensified in the UK in recent months with renewed assertions about a ‘crisis of masculinity’. However, Professor Anna Tarrant’s research over many years demonstrates that most fathers, including those who are young or experiencing poverty, very much want to care for their children. Yet they face numerous structural obstacles in doing so, such as a lack of secure jobs, suitable housing, or welfare support, and being sidelined by services who may see them as inherently ‘risky’. Young fathers in particular (as with young mothers) are frequently presented as a ‘social problem’. 

Anna’s research challenges these unhelpful stereotypes, shining a light on the ways in which many young men and working-class fathers (as well as grandfathers, uncles, brothers, and other family members) are engaging in love and caregiving, with transformative impacts on them, their children, and their partners. She discusses what changes need to happen for policies and services to become more ‘father-inclusive’ without undermining vital support for mothers, and why this is good for gender equality and for society as a whole. 

Anna Tarrant is a Professor of Sociology at the University of Lincoln (UK), a UKRI (UK Research and Innovation) Future Leaders Fellow, and Director of the Centre for Innovation in Fatherhood and Family Research. She is currently the Director of the UKRI-funded Future Leaders Fellowship study, 'Following Young Fathers Further'. She has written three books: 

• The Dynamics of Young Fatherhood (with Bren Neale, Policy Press, 2024)
• Men, Families and Poverty (with Kahryn Hughes, Palgrave Macmillan, 2023)
• Fathering and Poverty: Uncovering Men's Family Participation in Low Income Families (Policy Press, 2021)
• Follow Anna on LinkedIn
• Anna is also the Director of the Father-Inclusion Hub

She is also co-editor, with Linzi Ladlow and Laura Way, of the book ‘Men and Welfare’ (Routledge, 2022), in which Sandy and Stephen have a chapter on ‘Men, work, and care in the UK in the wake of COVID-19’.

Episode timeline

• Intro
• Notions of a ‘crisis of masculinity’ due to fatherlessness (02:59-08:17)
• Obstacles low-income fathers face (08:17-11:12)
• Lack of housing (11:12-13:21)
• Why young fathers are constructed as a ‘social problem’ (13:21-17:27)
• Barriers to services engaging with fathers (17:27-22:12)
• Break 
• How gender norms influence societal perceptions of fathers (22:22-25:10)
• Working with fathers who have been abusive (25:10-28:50)
• What a father-inclusive approach looks like (28:50-34:19)
• Policy change to support active fatherhood (34:19-41:38)
• Anna’s early research on grandfathers (41:38-48:28)
• The personal dynamics of research (48:28-51:22)
• Conclusion (51:22-59:22)

More info

• Prof Laura King’s research on the social history of fatherhood in the UK
• For Baby’s Sake
• Caring Dads
• Young Dads’ Collective
• North East Young Dads and Lads
• DigiDad
• International Network on Leave Policies & Research
• ‘The Vegetarian’ by Han Kang

Music: 'Now is time', courtesy of Chaps' Choir and Dom Stichbury.

How have young feminists challenged the patriarchal culture of South Korea in recent times? How are young men reacting to the upsurge in support for feminist ideas and activism? What is the background to the dramatic conflict around gender and masculinity in the country the last few years, and how might it be resolved?

Please note: This episode includes discussion about sexual violence.

On 3rd December 2024, a huge political upheaval took place which drew global attention when President Yoon Suk Yeol declared martial law. But this only lasted six hours as opposition lawmakers managed to get past the police and military, gain entry to the Assembly, and pass a resolution to lift it. Young women in the so-called “cheering light brigade” and the “kisses squad” played a key part in the pro-democracy movement that grew to impeach the President, staying out in public squares in freezing temperatures to demonstrate. 

These events followed a long-standing backlash against gender equality in South Korea, and the gains for women’s rights made since the 1980s. Three years of Yoon’s Presidency led to a dramatic roll-back on hard-won gender equality policies. He pledged to abolish the Ministry of Gender Equality and Family, withdrew plans for a non-consensual sex law, undermined safe abortion service, and removed funding for sexuality and human rights education.

These regressive moves reflect the rise of Manosphere communities over the past decade, fuelling men’s grievances against feminism and legitimising men’s violence against women in South Korea. Whilst the country leads the world in internet connectivity and hi-tech innovation, anti-feminist online spaces have become breeding grounds for various forms of digital crime, such as spy cameras in public toilets and deepfake pornography. So how have feminists been responding to this, how can solidarity be built among men and women amidst these divisions, and what lessons does this provide for gender equality advocates around the world?

Our guest is Myoung Ryoon Kim (better known as Goldie). She’s an educator in the prevention of gender-based violence and an activist for gender equality. A graduate of Kyung-Hee University, Goldie has held numerous positions in South Korean NGOs working on gender issues over the past 30 years. In 2025, she became the Director of GOMA (Gender Justice Organisation for More Action) Korea, and is one of the founders and current co-coordinator of K-MEN (the newly-formed Korean MenEngage Network). She talks honestly about her personal experience of gender violence, how she became involved in this struggle, and how she maintains her motivation to continue through such difficult times.

Episode timeline

• Intro
• The social position of women in South Korea today (02:49-06:14)
• Femicide and the Gangnam Station Exit 10 Murder Case (06:14-09:58)
• ‘Soranet’ and men’s violence against women online (09:58-15:29)
• The rise of the Manosphere and tech-facilitated abuse in South Korea (15:29-20:47)
• The ‘Feminist Reboot’ that has emerged in response (20:47-25:26)
• Break
• Reversals in gender equality under President Suk Yeol Yoon (25:35-28:25)
• Yoon’s masculinist attempt to impose martial law (28:25-31:04)
• The pro-democracy movement led by young women (31:04-35:33)
• Support for right-wing politicians among some young men (35:33-38:19)
• The relationship with North Korea, militarism and conscription of young men (38:19-43:25)
• Engaging men in gender equality in South Korea (43:25-47:00)
• What led Goldie to this work and what keeps her going (47:00-51:50)
• Conclusion (52:46-59:52)

More info

• 'A year after South Korea’s martial law crisis, the president urges unity, but the wounds are still raw'
• '‘Men don’t know why they became unhappy’: the toxic gender war dividing South Korea'
• Mare of Easttown
• Imagine Toolkit
• Jens Van Tricht – ‘Men Need Feminism’
• ‘Kim Ji-young, Born 1982’ by Cho Nam-Joo
• ‘The Vegetarian’ by Han Kang

Music, 'Now is time', courtesy of Chaps' Choir and Dom Stichbury.

Is masculinity ‘under attack’, and are boys increasingly ‘lost’? How valid are concerns about boys’ and young men’s achievement in education? What is the impact on them – and girls and young women – of the rise of the Manosphere and right-wing populism? In this episode, Prof Steven Roberts argues that the picture is much more complicated than is often presented, with, for instance, mixed effects on different racial and class groups. He challenges the pervasive narrative that tells young men gender equality threatens their positions and that traditional gender norms must be reasserted, arguing that this backward-looking approach feeds a sense of ‘manufactured outrage’ and ‘instructed victimhood’ among men and boys. 

Instead, he stresses the need for an alternative discourse which embraces gender equality, builds on the under-recognised positive changes taking place in (working-class) masculinity, and provides a more hopeful vision. He suggests, for instance, that many young working-class men find ways to adapt to the shifting labour market, working in sectors which are not seen as traditionally masculine such as retail and care, and forging more complex masculine identities as a result. 

Drawing on his research with Dr Stephanie Wescott in schools, Steven highlights the impact of sexist and misogynistic behaviour among young men influenced by the Manosphere and the complicity and responsibility of schools, and what they should do to promote gender-based violence prevention and early intervention work and develop wider school culture, norms, and leadership. 

Steven also talks movingly about the sustained violence and controlling behaviour he experienced from men when growing up, the impact on his work and life, and his remarkable transition to being an academic. He draws attention to the wider implications, including, for example, how the significance and prevalence of men’s violence is often downplayed, and the importance of breaking men’s silence on this issue.  

Steven is a Professor of Sociology in the School of Social Sciences at Monash University in Melbourne, Australia. He has published numerous journal articles, (co-)authored three books, and edited six more about changes and continuities in boys and men's masculinity practices, and inequalities in young people’s transitions to adulthood. Steven makes regular contributions to the media and other forms of public discussion. He writes frequently, for example, for the ABC, the Conversation and Women’s Agenda, and has appeared in a raft of media outlets in print, TV and radio nationally and internationally.

• Steven’s profile
• LinkedIn

Episode timeline

• Intro
• The play Inter Alia (00:41-03:35)
• What drew Steven to working on masculinity (03:35-05:59)
• What made Steven share his experiences of men’s violence (05:59-08:43)
• Encouraging other men to share their stories (08:43-10:37)
• Sexism and misogyny in schools today (10:37-15:52)
• Where boys are learning this behaviour from (15:52-20:17)
• Manufactured outrage around young men being ‘under attack’ (20:17-23:34)
• The masculinist politics of ‘protecting the nation’ (23:34-28:06)
• The relationship between class, race, and the rise of the far-right (28:06-32:54)
• Changing the discourse around boys and young men (32:54-36:36)
• Break
• The limitations of narratives about boys’ performance at school (36:46-41:22)
• Wellbeing struggles among both girls and boys (41:22-43:51)
• The impact of domestic abuse at home on school (43:51-49:49)
• How personal transitions shape research interests (49:49-54:24)
• Working-class communities driving change and providing seeds of hope (54:24-01:00:18)
• Conclusion (01:00:58-01:09:24)

Futher reading

• Steven’s review of ‘Inter Alia’
• ‘A very personal call to action for non-violent men to denounce men’s violence’
• ‘How the discourse on boys’ alienation is fuelled by anti-feminist agendas’
• ‘Research exposes alarming impact of 'manfluencer' culture on Australian schools’
• ‘The ‘March for Australia’ and the masculine politics of protection’
• ‘‘No one knew what was happening’: New research shows how domestic violence harms young people’s schooling’
• ‘Young Working-Class Men in Transition’ (Routledge, 2018)
• Raymond Williams
• bell hooks
• Amanda Keddie and Michael Flood’s research on young men online
• 'No room for battle of the sexes: Why boys AND girls matter' (Education Policy Institute)

What role does love have to play in transforming men and masculinities? Why is it that so many men and boys struggle to give and receive love, yet feel great hunger for it? How should we understand the complex relationship between masculinity, love, and violence – why do men enact violence towards the people we claim to love? Why do dominant notions of masculinity often conflict with love and vulnerability? We discuss these issues with Kopano Ratele, Professor of Psychology at the University of Stellenbosch in South Africa, drawing on his recent book ‘Why Men Hurt Women and Other Reflections on Love, Violence and Masculinity’, published in 2022 by Wits University Press. Kopano puts forward honest personal reflections about his own experiences with love as a partner, father, psychologist and researcher in the field of men and masculinities.

The second part of the episode explores Kopano’s vital work on critical and cultural African psychology, and the need to apply a decolonial lens to men and masculinities work. Decolonisation involves not only the process of undoing colonial rule, but also deeper shifts away from Western systems and structures of knowledge and power – including in our own psyches. Applying this approach to gender relations, Kopano highlights how a vibrant, Global South range of scholarship on men and masculinities now exists, which asks questions of dominant Western-centric frameworks. For example, he draws attention to the complex position of men of colour in Africa, who may simultaneously have some degree of male privilege, whilst also having been marginalised by colonisation. Our discussion concludes with his thoughts on the ‘softer’ masculinity displayed by South African President, Cyril Ramaphosa, and what impact his condemnation of violence against women and related policy initiatives are having on the very high levels of violence in the country. 

Kopano has published an extensive body of work focusing on the core themes of this episode. Alongside authoring multiple books, chapters, and journal articles, he has served as a member of the Ministerial Committee on Transformation in South African Universities, convener of the National Research Foundation’s Specialist Committee for Psychology Rating Panel, president of the Psychological Society of South Africa, and chairperson of Sonke Gender Justice.

Episode timeline

• Intro
• Why Kopano is interested in questions of love (02:30-04:39)
• Why so many men struggle to give and receive love (04:39-08:54)
• The relationship between (an absence of) love and men’s violence (08:54-13:37)
• Kopano’s own personal struggles with love (13:37-17:42)
• Opening oneself up to vulnerability (17:42-20:27)
• Helping men to embrace a loving masculinity (20:27-26:03)
• How Kopano became involved in profeminism (26:03-31:42)
• Break
• Why men and masculinity studies needs to be decolonised (31:53-41:56)
• The complexities of masculinity, race and power in Africa (41:56-48:17)
• Cyril Ramaphosa’s Oval Office exchange with Donald Trump (48:17-49:59)
• Ramaphosa’s vocal condemnation of violence against women (49:59-54:06)
• Pushing for deeper social change in South Africa post-Apartheid (54:06-56:01)
• Conclusion (56:32-01:04:45)

Music, 'Now is time', courtesy of Chaps' Choir and Dom Stichbury.

How do women and men suffer in different ways in wartime? How are distorted ideas about masculinity and femininity manipulated to promote and justify wars and recruit men to fight? What can be done to counter a return to patriarchal societies post-conflict? How are feminists responding to increasing militarisation in these dark times? 

Over many years, Cynthia Enloe has drawn on women’s first-hand experiences of war to show how patriarchy and militarism have become embedded in institutions and personal lives. Her analysis highlights how wartime shapes the gendered politics of issues such as marriage, family, work, childcare, food, income, prostitution, domestic violence and rape. She criticises the notion of a hierarchy of wartime suffering between women and men and draws attention to how men are coerced into being soldiers, framed as protectors of women, conscripted into militaries, and suffer death, injury and trauma in large numbers from direct wartime violence. She also shows how women’s emotional and physical labour is exploited by governments to support war-waging policies, and how different groups of women and men have tried to resist these efforts. 

In this episode, Cynthia reflects on these issues in particular in relation to the ongoing war in Ukraine, and the underlying patriarchal ideas and processes that perpetuate the conflict. Echoing a perceptive and long-standing theme in her work, she brings a feminist curiosity to what she sees, and encourages observers to remain attentive to the full range of questions that should be asked, rather than narrowing focus and leaping to easy assumptions.  

Cynthia Enloe is an activist, researcher and teacher, and still engaged - in her words - in the lifetime process of ‘becoming a feminist’. She is Research Professor at Clark University in Massachusetts and internationally renowned for her work on the interactions of feminism, women, militarised culture, war, politics, and globalised economics in countries such as Japan, Iraq, the US, Britain, the Philippines, Canada, Chile, and Turkey. She’s written 15 ground-breaking books, including her latest Twelve Feminist Lessons of War, 2023 (Footnote Press/University of California Press), for which she reads the audiobook. Among many accolades, in 2018 she was selected to be named on the Gender Justice Legacy Wall at the International Criminal Court in The Hague.

• Cynthia’s profile
• ‘Twelve Feminist Lessons of War’ (UK, US, Australia)

Episode timeline

• Intro
• Learning from Ukrainian feminists (01:38-10:18)
• The multiple roles women are expected to play during war (10:18-15:52)
• How even insurgent movements can foster post-war patriarchy (15:52-16:57)
• The insidiousness of ‘returning to normal’ (16:57-17:32)
• The return of the Taliban and the MAGA movement (17:32-19:25)
• Why women’s wars are not men’s wars (19:25-28:43)
• How masculinity and femininity are used to justify war (28:43-36:53)
• Break
• Putin’s strategies to recruit Russian men to fight (37:05-43:15)
• Nurturing feminist curiosity (43:15-48:45)
• The surge in militarisation across the world (48:45-56:21)
• Why we need to look beyond the big leaders (56:21-01:02:33)
• How Cynthia became the feminist she is today (01:02:33-01:05:45)
• What men can do to support struggles against militarism (01:05:45-01:06:33)
• Conclusion (01:06:42)

More info

• Women’s Perspectives in Lviv
• Marta Chumalo
• Nimo's War, Emma's War: Making Feminist Sense of the Iraq War, by Cynthia
• Putin’s payments to Russian soldiers, New York Times
• The Big Push: Exposing and Challenging the Persistence of Patriarchy, by Cynthia
• Seriously! Investigating Crashes and Crises as If Women Mattered, by Cynthia

Music 'Now is time' courtesy of Chaps' Choir and Dom Stichbury.

How are artificial intelligence and other technologies exacerbating misogyny and undermining women’s rights and safety? What are the emerging forms of violence against women and girls being facilitated by AI, such as deepfakes and nudify apps? What is driving so many men to view and create such material, and how is it shaping their sexual attitudes and behaviours? What actions are needed to address these harms, and by whom? For many years, Prof Clare McGlynn has been at the forefront of efforts to tackle the devastating impacts of online violence against women and to establish stronger forms of regulation. Central to her work on sexual violence are the perspectives of victims and survivors, particularly their understandings of what justice means to them.

 In this episode, we explore her approach to these issues and some of the challenges involved, including the masculinist dynamics of the highly profitable tech and porn companies, and obstacles in attempting to regulate the transformation of these industries in recent years.  

Clare also talks about recent aspects of her influential advocacy work.  For example, she provided legal expertise to the successful campaign to persuade the UK Government to adopt a law criminalising the creation and solicitation of sexually explicit ‘deepfakes’. We explore too her work to reduce the easy and growing availability, and adverse impacts, of extreme and abusive pornography (including ‘strangulation porn’ and ‘incest porn’). She outlines her involvement in the campaign to tackle the harms of strangulation in mainstream pornography. 

We conclude by discussing with Clare what led her to focus increasingly on online and tech-facilitated harms in her work, and how her sense of responsibility and justice sustains her in continuing to research such distressing issues. 

Clare is a Professor of Law at Durham University, with particular expertise in the legal regulation of pornography, sexual violence and online abuse, especially image-based sexual abuse (i.e. taking, creating, and sharing intimate images without consent). In 2020, she was appointed an Honorary KC (Kings Counsel) in recognition of her exceptional work within the legal profession.

• Clare’s website: https://www.claremcglynn.com
• Durham University profile: https://www.durham.ac.uk/staff/clare-mcglynn/
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/clare-mcglynn-32b898238/
• Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/claremcglynn_/

Episode timeline

• Introduction
• How AI is deepening gender inequality (02:34-04:21)
• Emerging AI-driven forms of violence against women (04:21-06:08)
• The masculinist dynamics of the tech industry (06:08-08:52)
• Why attempts to regulate Big Tech have been so lacklustre (08:52-11:31)
• The new UK law Clare helped to introduce criminalising ‘deepfake’ images (11:31-16:44)
• Why the criminal law can be a useful tool for feminist campaigners (16:44-19:34)
• Why debates about ‘carceral feminism’ should not be reduced to either/or (19:34-24:23)
• Victim-survivors’ wide-ranging perceptions of justice (24:23-26:27)
• Break
• What is driving so many men to engage in image-based sexual abuse (26:35-29:56)
• Why the online world is not simply a reflection of wider society (29:56-31:35)
• The role of pornography and how it’s shifted over time, e.g. ‘incest porn’ (31:35-36:55)
• The personal impacts of doing this research (36:55-38:25)
• Is porn simply giving people what they want? (38:25-40:46)
• How porn influences our attitudes, behaviours, and relationships (40:46-44:11)
• The mainstreaming of strangulation in sex (44:11-48:04)
• Talking to young people (48:04-52:05)
• What sustains Clare to keep doing this work (52:05-54:24)
• Conclusion (55:15-01:02:27)

More info

• New ‘engaging men’ briefing paper co-authored by Stephen: https://www.endviolenceagainstwomen.org.uk/new-how-to-engage-men-in-ending-vawg/
• ‘The New Age of Sexism’ by Laura Bates: https://www.simonandschuster.co.uk/books/The-New-Age-of-Sexism/Laura-Bates/9781471190483
• End Violence Against Women Coalition: https://evaw.org.uk
• #NotYourPorn: https://notyourporn.com
• Sally Rees, NASUWT union: https://news.sky.com/story/upskirted-teacher-says-women-being-targeted-by-misogynistic-attitudes-in-classroom-13351789
• Clare’s research on ‘kaleidoscopic justice’:
• https://doi.org/10.1177/0964663918761200
• And restorative justice: https://doi.org/10.1111/j.1467-6478.2012.00579.x
• ‘Breathless’ campaign: https://www.breathlesscampaign.com
• ‘No One Wants to See Your D*ck’, by Jess Davies: https://www.theguardian.com/society/2025/apr/30/i-dont-date-at-all-now-one-womans-journey-into-the-darkest-corners-of-the-manosphere
• ‘The Crimes of Digital Capitalism’, by Aitor Jiménez: https://nyupress.org/9781479821693/the-crimes-of-digital-capitalism/

Society is obsessed with masculinity, and constantly discussing how it's 'in crisis'. But how helpful are these debates? Can masculinity be reshaped as 'positive' or 'healthy' - and should that be our focus? In a challenging new paper – 'Positive humanity, when? Is masculinity worth saving?' – Dr Finn Mackay argues that policy aimed at saving men and alleviating their suffering does not address men's humanity, but is erroneously focused on 'saving' masculinity. Instead, Finn believes we should aspire to be positive, healthy people and equal human beings, without needing to have our identities as men reinforced. Rather than recycling tired biological essentialism, Finn concludes "it is time for men and women to start acting like we really believe we are not separate spheres, but on the same planet, with the same needs for love and care, the same need to matter to our communities, the same need for life". Finn advocates for a radical feminist analysis, arguing that it offers positive solutions to the problems all of us face - including men and boys.

The episode discusses Finn's 2021 book 'Female Masculinities and the Gender Wars: The Politics of Sex'. Based on research they conducted on lesbian and queer masculinities in the UK, they explore the challenges and obstacles facing those who do not fit into strict boxes of sex and gender. This is particularly topical given the recent ruling by the UK Supreme Court that the terms "woman" and "sex" in the Equality Act 2010 refer only to "biological women" and "biological sex". Decrying the widespread scapegoating and demonising of trans people, Finn argues they have become easy targets for regressive gender conservatism. 

Finn ends by talking movingly about their personal journey from growing up in rural Scotland, to living at women's peace camps outside military bases, and the impact that feminism – especially radical feminism – has had on their life.

Finn is a senior lecturer in Sociology at the University of the West of England, and they have a long history of feminist research and activism. Prior to academia, Finn was involved in education and youth work on issues including domestic violence prevention and anti-bullying. In 2004, they founded the London Feminist Network, and revived the tradition of London Reclaim the Night. Their previous book 'Radical Feminism: Feminist Activism in Movement' (2015) set out a pioneering feminist manifesto analysing the reasons for women’s oppression and what feminist activism must do to counter it.

• Finn's personal website: https://www.drfinnmackay.co.uk
• UWE profile: https://people.uwe.ac.uk/Person/FinnMackay
• Bluesky: https://bsky.app/profile/finnfox.bsky.social
• Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/finn-mackay-87a593345/
• ‘Positive humanity, when?’ paper: https://doi.org/10.1080/09589236.2025.2502679
• ‘Radical Feminism’ book: https://doi.org/10.1057/9781137363589
• ‘Female Masculinities’ book: https://www.bloomsbury.com/uk/female-masculinities-and-the-gender-wars-9781350466623/

Episode timeline

• Intro
• Current debates about masculinity (02:02-03:56)
• Is 'positive masculinity' the answer? (03:56-06:12)
• Why masculinity is crisis (06:12-08:59)
• Reinforcing gender dualisms through segregation (08:59-13:12)
• Boys starting school later (13:12-15:48)
• The allure of patriarchal norms in times of crisis (15:48-18:46)
• Why radical feminism offers hope to boys and men (18:46-22:45)
• What men can do to support radical feminism (22:45-25:40)
• Break
• How to define radical feminism and essentialism (25:56-33:21)
• Finn's research on lesbian and queer masculinities (33:21-37:09)
• Simultaneously identifying with and critiquing masculinity (37:09-41:57)
• The UK supreme court decision on 'biological women' (41:57-45:50)
• Trans panic and the gender equality backlash (45:50-49:49)
• Reconciling the divides over trans rights (49:49-55:55)
• Finn's personal feminist journey (55:55-01:02:20)
• Conclusion [Learning from radical feminism; How can men deal feminist divisions?; Patriarchy is the problem; Continuity and crisis; Men who supported the peace camps; Dismantling essentialism] (01:02:28-01:08:00)

More info

• John Stoltenberg: https://johnstoltenberg.medium.com/
• UK Dads' Strike: https://www.theguardian.com/money/2025/jun/11/dad-strikes-in-london-and-edinburgh-demand-better-paternity-leave
• Susan Brownmiller obituary: https://www.theguardian.com/books/2025/jun/03/susan-brownmiller-obituary
• UK Supreme Court ruling: https://www.theguardian.com/society/2025/apr/16/critics-of-trans-rights-win-uk-supreme-court-case-over-definition-of-woman
• 'What does the UK Supreme Court’s gender ruling mean for trans men?': https://theconversation.com/what-does-the-uk-supreme-courts-gender-ruling-mean-for-trans-men-254868
• Greenham Common Women's Peace Camp: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenham_Common_Women%27s_Peace_Camp
• 'The origins and history of Reclaim the Night': https://mancunion.com/2022/03/20/the-origins-and-history-of-reclaim-the-night/

Why do men still benefit from higher pay, status, and power at work? What is the ideological and cultural underpinning that sustains the gendered division of labour? What are the harmful effects of workplace inequality on poverty, health, family life and women’s status? These are some of the key issues that Professor Cordelia Fine addresses in her witty and insightful new book ‘Patriarchy Inc.: What We Get Wrong About Gender Equality and Why Men Still Win at Work’, which is listed as one of the non-fiction books to read this year by the UK Financial Times. 

In our discussion, Cordelia draws on a wealth of evidence to explain how ‘Patriarchy Inc.’ operates, and how progress in dismantling unequal gender arrangements is stymied by two false visions: the ‘Diversity, Equality and Inclusion (DEI)’ approach, and the ‘Different but Equal’ perspective. Instead, she argues for a set of commonsense reforms which would benefit everyone. These include reorientating societies and workplaces around the assumption that most workers will have caring responsibilities; setting aside definitions of job ‘fit’ and success that exclude women and other marginalised groups; and addressing how the gender system is embedded in childhood. 

We also explore some of the themes from her earlier book, Testosterone Rex, which won the Royal Society Science Book Prize. The book challenges the powerful myth that men and women have evolved fundamentally different natures, and that testosterone is responsible for ‘hard-wiring’ male brains to, for example, take risks, compete, and be violent.  We conclude by discussing her motivations and influences as a writer, and the role of humour in her work. 

Cordelia is Professor in the History and Philosophy of Science at the University of Melbourne. She was awarded the prestigious 2018 Edinburgh Medal for her work challenging gender bias in science, and was recently named as a living legend by The Australian newspaper. 

• Buy the book: https://atlantic-books.co.uk/book/patriarchy-inc/ (UK) https://www.allenandunwin.com/browse/books/9781838953355 (Aus)
• Cordelia’s website: https://www.cordelia-fine.com
• Her University of Melbourne profile: https://findanexpert.unimelb.edu.au/profile/126041-cordelia-fine
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cordelia-fine-240773250/

Episode timeline

• Intro
• Why Cordelia wanted to write ‘Patriarchy Inc.’ (03:49-08:01)
• Why she takes issue with the ‘Different but Equal’ perspective (08:01-15:30)
• Why the ‘DEI’ approach is also insufficient (15:30-27:06)
• What her ‘Patriarchy Inc.’ approach adds (27:06-33:42)
• How we can foster genuine equality in the workplace and society (33:42-42:41)
• Break
• ‘Testosterone Rex’ and why men’s violence can’t be reduced to biology (42:52-50:55)
• Fatherhood and why Patriarchy Inc. doesn't work for any of us (50:55-52:12)
• The use of humour in writing (52:12-55:38)
• What led Cordelia into researching the science of sex and gender (55:38-01:00:13)
• Conclusion [The nuances of DEI, Progress being non-linear, The role of trade unions, Capitalism and fatherhood, Valuing care] (01:00:22-01:06:49)