Ops Cast

Text us your thoughts on the episode or the show!

What are the biggest challenges of MarTech consulting, and how does working in-house compare when it comes to managing projects, stakeholders, and technology?

In this episode of the Society of Marketing Technology Consulting Podcast, Courtney Makara and Grant Gregorian sit down with Kelly Jo Horton, Principal Engineer of Marketing Operations and Technology at ROOM, to discuss her extensive experience working as an independent consultant, with agencies, and in-house.

The conversation also explores project-based pricing, discovery calls, agile sprint planning, and why the organizational structure of a Marketing Operations team can make a significant difference in how effectively technical work gets done.

In this episode, we discuss:

• Kelly Jo's career across independent consulting, agency work, and in-house Marketing Operations
• Why she returned in-house to become part of a team and build technology systems over the long term
• The frustrations of tracking billable hours when consulting work is spread across multiple clients and projects
• Why project-based pricing can help consultants focus on outcomes rather than individual hours
• The challenges of invoicing, collecting payments, and finding new consulting business
• What scope creep looks like and why it can quickly turn a profitable project into an unprofitable one
• How to manage additional client requests without damaging relationships
• Why clear statements of work (SOWs), project boundaries, and change requests are essential
• The importance of discovery calls before agreeing to a consulting engagement

One of the central themes of the conversation is the importance of managing scope and expectations. Kelly Jo explains how easy it can be for consultants to take on additional work simply because they want to help their clients. Without clear boundaries, discovery processes, and adjustments to the original SOW, those seemingly small requests can accumulate into significant unpaid work.

For MarTech consultants, Marketing Operations professionals, and RevOps leaders navigating project scoping, consulting engagements, team structures, or career decisions, this episode offers practical insights into delivering better work while managing the realities of both consulting and in-house roles.

If you enjoyed the episode, subscribe and rate the SMTC Podcast, and join the Society of Marketing Technology Consulting community through MarketingOps.com.

Episode Brought to You By MO Pros 
The #1 Community for Marketing Operations Professionals

Streamline your webinar programs and tap into more data, more content, and far less manual work. Save time, simplify your workflow, and integrate Goldcast.io with your stack.

Support the show

Text us your thoughts on the episode or the show!

What does it really take to leave a stable in-house Marketing Operations role, start your own consulting business, and eventually find your place at an agency?

In this episode of the Society of Marketing Technology Consulting Podcast, Courtney Makara and Grant Gregorian sit down with Carey Picklesimer, Senior Consultant at Perkuto, to discuss her journey from graphic design and in-house marketing to independent MarTech consulting and agency life.

Carey shares how her career evolved from graphic design into marketing automation, how working with Marketo and Salesforce shaped her passion for Marketing Operations, and why she eventually decided to leave a long-term in-house role to pursue consulting.

She also offers a practical look at the financial planning, time management, client relationships, and personal considerations involved in building an independent consulting business, including how she balanced entrepreneurship with raising two young children.

In this episode, we discuss:

• Carey's career journey from graphic design and advertising agencies to Marketing Operations and MarTech consulting
• How working with Marketo and Salesforce sparked her interest in marketing automation
• Why she left an in-house marketing role after nearly 12 years
• How burnout, career growth, and family priorities influenced her decision to become an independent consultant
• Dealing with imposter syndrome when starting a consulting business
• Why setting realistic financial expectations is important before going independent
• How Carey calculated her initial consulting income target using 20 billable hours per week at $85 per hour

One of Carey's most valuable lessons is that successful consulting requires much more than technical expertise. Before going independent, she carefully considered her expenses, healthcare coverage, taxes, and realistic billable hours. Rather than assuming she would immediately have a full workload, she built her financial plan around a modest target that would allow her business to grow sustainably.

For MarTech and Marketing Operations professionals considering independent consulting, transitioning into an agency, or returning to an in-house role, this episode offers practical insights into the financial, professional, and personal decisions that shape a sustainable consulting career.

If you enjoyed the episode, subscribe and rate the SMTC Podcast, and join the Society of Marketing Technology Consulting community through MarketingOps.com.

Episode Brought to You By MO Pros 
The #1 Community for Marketing Operations Professionals

Support the show

Text us your thoughts on the episode or the show!

What does it take to move from agency consulting to in-house Marketing Operations and eventually build an independent consulting business of your own?

In this episode of the Society of Marketing Technology Consulting Podcast, Courtney Makara and Grant Gregorian sit down with Nate Hall, an independent freelance Marketing Operations consultant with experience across all three sides of the profession: agency consulting, in-house Marketing Ops, and independent consulting.  Pasted markdown

Nate shares how he got his start in Marketing Operations, what DigitalPi taught him about working with clients, why he moved in-house to Sift, and what eventually motivated him to go independent. 

In this episode, we discuss:

• How Nate unexpectedly found his way into Marketing Operations after college
• Starting his career as a junior consultant at DigitalPi
• Why he left agency consulting for an in-house Marketing Ops role
• How agency experience helped him treat internal stakeholders like customers
• The importance of communication and a client-service mindset in Marketing Operations
• Why working in-house can give MOPS professionals more freedom to explore problems and go deeper into projects
• How great consultants can move beyond execution and challenge whether a project should be done differently
• When it makes sense to hire a full-time Marketing Ops employee instead of relying on outside support

One of Nate’s biggest lessons from agency life was that the consulting mindset remains valuable even when you move in-house. Your clients may become sales, marketing, and other internal teams, but communication, responsiveness, understanding requests, and managing stakeholder relationships still matter.  Pasted markdown

For Marketing Operations professionals considering agency life, an in-house role, or going independent, this episode offers a practical look at what each path can teach you and what it really takes to make the transition into consulting.

If you enjoyed the episode, subscribe and rate the SMTC Podcast, and join the Society of Marketing Technology Consulting community through MarketingOps.com.

Episode Brought to You By MO Pros 
The #1 Community for Marketing Operations Professionals

Support the show

Text us your thoughts on the episode or the show!

What is the best way to move from an in-house Marketing Operations role into consulting without immediately giving up the stability of your full-time job?

In this episode of the Society of Marketing Technology Consulting Podcast, Courtney Makara and Grant Gregorian sit down with Alden Dale of Inverta to explore his journey from in-house Marketing Operations to moonlighting as a consultant, running his own independent practice, and eventually joining a larger agency. 

Alden shares how his interest in marketing technology began when he built his own automated email tool before discovering Eloqua, and how growing his Marketo expertise eventually created opportunities to take on consulting projects during nights and weekends.

In this episode, we discuss:

• How Alden discovered Marketing Operations through Eloqua and marketing automation
• Starting a consulting side business while maintaining a full-time job
• Why getting your employer’s permission before moonlighting can be important
• How Alden incorporated his ability to consult on the side into negotiations for his next role
• Managing client expectations when you are only available during evenings and weekends
• The tradeoff between limited availability and more competitive freelance pricing
• How Marketo user groups, industry events, and professional relationships generated consulting opportunities

For MarTech and Marketing Operations professionals considering freelancing, moonlighting, independent consulting, or agency life, this episode offers a practical look at the different paths available and the tradeoffs that come with each.

If you enjoyed the episode, subscribe and rate the SMTC Podcast, and join the Society of Marketing Technology Consulting community through MarketingOps.com.

Episode Brought to You By MO Pros 
The #1 Community for Marketing Operations Professionals

Support the show

Text us your thoughts on the episode or the show!

What does consulting teach you that working in-house cannot, and when does it make sense to leave agency life and return to an internal Marketing Operations role?

In this episode of the Society of Marketing Technology Consulting Podcast, Courtney Makara and Grant Gregorian sit down with Mike Rizzo of WeWork to talk about his journey from in-house Marketing Operations to consulting at Digital Pi, then back into an internal enterprise role.

Mike shares why agency life appealed to him in the first place, how working across different clients and projects changed his confidence as a consultant, and why realizing that consultants do not need to know every answer was such an important lesson. 

He also reflects on the skills he developed through consulting, from project management and stakeholder communication to emotional intelligence and relationship building.

In this episode, we discuss:

• Why Mike moved from an in-house Marketing Operations role into agency consulting 
• The initial hesitation he felt about calling himself a consultant 
• Why consultants do not need to know every answer to provide value 
• How agency support helped Mike build confidence in client-facing situations 
• What working across multiple clients taught him about common Marketing Operations challenges 
• How consulting improved his project management, communication, and people skills 
• Why emotional intelligence matters as much as technical expertise 
• The difference between building a system for a client and owning that system long term

Mike also explains why his time in consulting became a career-changing experience. Working with different clients, teams, and business problems gave him a broader perspective that he later carried back into an internal role.

For Marketing Operations professionals deciding between agency consulting, independent consulting, and in-house work, this episode offers a practical look at the benefits and tradeoffs of each path, and how moving between them can help build a stronger, more versatile career.

If you enjoyed the episode, subscribe and rate the SMTC Podcast, and join the Society of Marketing Technology Consulting community through MarketingOps.com.

Episode Brought to You By MO Pros 
The #1 Community for Marketing Operations Professionals

Streamline your webinar programs and tap into more data, more content, and far less manual work. Save time, simplify your workflow, and integrate Goldcast.io with your stack.

Support the show

Text us your thoughts on the episode or the show!

What happens when a career in sports marketing leads to marketing automation, consulting, and eventually the CMO seat?

In this episode of the Society of Marketing Technology Consulting Podcast, Courtney Makara and Grant Gregorian sit down with Andrea Lechner-Becker, CMO at LeadMD, to explore her journey from working with the Phoenix Suns to becoming deeply immersed in B2B marketing, marketing automation, analytics, and consulting.

Andrea shares how her experience in sports entertainment shaped the way she thinks about customer psychology and measurement, and why B2B marketers need to connect marketing activity to meaningful sales outcomes. The conversation also explores the business side of consulting, including pricing expertise, packaging services, managing client expectations, and knowing when to establish clear boundaries.

In this episode, we discuss:

•  Andrea’s journey from the Phoenix Suns into B2B marketing and marketing automation 
•  How she developed expertise across platforms like Eloqua and Marketo 
•  What sports marketing taught her about customer psychology and buyer behavior 
•  Why marketing analytics should connect marketing activity with tangible sales outcomes 
•  What B2B marketers should actually focus on when measuring performance 
•  Why consultants should price based on expertise and value, not simply hours worked

Andrea also offers an important perspective on what clients are really paying for. Consulting value is not necessarily determined by how long a task takes, but by the experience and expertise that allow a consultant to identify the right solution and deliver it effectively.

For MarTech consultants, agency professionals, and marketers considering a move into consulting, this episode provides a practical look at building expertise, communicating value, navigating client relationships, and understanding the business behind the technology.

If you enjoyed the episode, subscribe and rate the SMTC Podcast, and join the Society of Marketing Technology Consulting community through MarketingOps.com.

Episode Brought to You By MO Pros 
The #1 Community for Marketing Operations Professionals

Streamline your webinar programs and tap into more data, more content, and far less manual work. Save time, simplify your workflow, and integrate Goldcast.io with your stack.

Support the show

Text us your thoughts on the episode or the show!

What does it really take to build a MarTech consulting practice while keeping a full-time role, and how much experience do you need before clients will trust you as the expert?

In this episode of the Society of Marketing Technology Consulting Podcast, Courtney Makara and Grant Gregorian sit down with Julie James, a multiple-time Marketo Champion, professor, consultant, and practitioner who has worked across in-house, freelance, and consulting roles.

Julie shares how she moved from working client-side in Marketo to teaching marketing technology in academia, then gradually built her own consulting business after realizing how much demand existed for independent specialists outside large agencies. She also explains how working across roughly 20 clients and 25 Marketo instances dramatically expanded her perspective on what “best practice” really means.

In this episode, we discuss:

• How Julie moved from in-house Marketing Operations into teaching, freelancing, and consulting 
• How a simple post in the Marketo community led to her first consulting opportunities 
• Why many companies prefer working with an independent consultant instead of a large agency 
• What Julie learned from working across dozens of different Marketo instances 
• Why best practices often need to be adapted to the specific needs of each business 
• How her PhD in marketing and experience as a professor influence the way she approaches MarTech consulting 
•  Why teaching skills are valuable when clients need more than just technical execution 

Julie also explains why strong consulting is not simply about knowing Marketo. Understanding the customer, the wider technology stack, integrations, sales processes, and how teams work together can be just as important as knowing how to build inside the platform.

For anyone thinking about becoming a MarTech consultant, freelancing alongside a full-time role, or building deeper expertise before making the move into consulting, this conversation offers a practical look at how Julie built her career one client, one instance, and one lesson at a time.

If you enjoyed the episode, subscribe and rate the SMTC Podcast, and join the Society of Marketing Technology Consulting community through MarketingOps.com.

Episode Brought to You By MO Pros 
The #1 Community for Marketing Operations Professionals

Streamline your webinar programs and tap into more data, more content, and far less manual work. Save time, simplify your workflow, and integrate Goldcast.io with your stack.

Support the show

Text us your thoughts on the episode or the show!

After nearly 250 episodes and more than five years of conversations, Ops Cast is signing off, at least in its current form.

In this final episode, Michael Hartmann is joined by longtime co-hosts Mike Rizzo and Naomi Liu to look back at how Ops Cast began, how the Marketing Operations profession changed alongside it, and what they learned from hundreds of guests who shared their experiences, ideas, challenges, and careers with the community.

Rather than focusing on technology, analytics, or another Marketing Ops framework, this conversation reflects on the people behind the profession. The hosts revisit episodes that tackled leadership, career development, mental health, parenthood, workplace pressures, and the personal realities that inevitably become part of professional life.

In this episode, we discuss:

•  How Ops Cast grew from an experiment in 2021 to nearly 250 episodes 
•  The conversations and guests that stayed with Michael, Mike, and Naomi 
•  Why understanding human psychology remains an important Marketing Ops skill 
•  Giving first-time podcast guests a platform to share their experiences and build confidence 
•  Some of the more personal conversations around parenthood, mental health, career challenges, and life outside work 
•  How remote work changed the separation between professional and personal life 
•  The growth of Marketing Ops, RevOps, and the wider operations community during the life of the podcast 
•  How the Marketing Ops podcast space expanded over the past five years 
•  What the hosts learned from CMOs and other executives about how they view Marketing Operations 

The episode is also a reminder of what made Ops Cast work in the first place: there was never one prescribed path into Marketing Operations or one correct way to approach the work. Across hundreds of conversations, guests brought different backgrounds and opinions while repeatedly returning to the importance of curiosity, authenticity, human connection, and learning from one another.

While this marks the end of Ops Cast in its current form, the conversations, relationships, and community built around it continue.

Thank you to every guest who shared their story, every person who helped produce the show, and everyone who listened over the years.

Episode Brought to You By MO Pros 
The #1 Community for Marketing Operations Professionals

Streamline your webinar programs and tap into more data, more content, and far less manual work. Save time, simplify your workflow, and integrate Goldcast.io with your stack.

Support the show

Text us your thoughts on the episode or the show!

AI is changing how people search for information, evaluate options, and make buying decisions. But what happens when customers stop searching for information themselves and start asking AI to solve the problem for them?

In this episode of Ops Cast, Michael Hartmann is joined by Len Ward, Managing Partner and Head of AI at Commexis, to discuss the shift from a traditional “search and retrieve” model to a “solve my problem” model and what it could mean for Marketing Operations.

Drawing on more than two decades of experience across traditional marketing, digital, analytics, and AI, Len explains why the rise of LLMs could challenge long-standing assumptions about websites, SEO, content, lead generation, and the customer journey.

In this episode, we discuss:

• How Commexis evolved from traditional and digital marketing into analytics and AI 
• What the shift from “search and retrieve” to “solve my problem” means for marketers 
• How LLMs could change the role of websites, content, SEO, and owned channels 
• Why traditional search and lead-generation models may come under increasing pressure 
• Len’s prediction about Google and what declining search dependence could mean for marketers 
• What organizations should consider building as traditional acquisition models change 
• How agent-to-agent marketing could reshape the way buyers and companies interact
• What Marketing Ops leaders should prioritize over the next 12 to 18 months 

The conversation also explores a much bigger question for Marketing Operations. If AI increasingly handles research, comparison, and decision support for customers, how should companies rethink the systems and processes they have spent years building around the traditional buyer journey?

For Marketing Ops and RevOps leaders trying to prepare for what comes next without chasing every new AI development, this episode offers a thought-provoking look at where AI may have its biggest impact and why the goal should be solving customer problems better, not simply doing existing work faster.

Episode Brought to You By MO Pros 
The #1 Community for Marketing Operations Professionals

Streamline your webinar programs and tap into more data, more content, and far less manual work. Save time, simplify your workflow, and integrate Goldcast.io with your stack.

Support the show

Text us your thoughts on the episode or the show!

In this episode of the Society of Marketing Technology Consulting Podcast, Courtney and Grant sit down with Bryan D’Andrea, a San Diego-based MarTech consultant, to talk about his journey from agency life to independent consulting and what it takes to build a successful consulting career.

Bryan shares practical lessons from his experience in marketing technology operations, working with platforms like Salesforce and HubSpot, building strong client relationships, and helping organizations bring sales, marketing, and customer success teams into better alignment.

In this episode, we discuss:

• Bryan’s transition from agency life to independent MarTech consulting
• The realities of building a consulting career and working for yourself
• How Salesforce, HubSpot, and MarTech operations fit into effective business processes
• Aligning sales, marketing, and customer success teams around shared goals
• How networking and professional relationships can lead to new consulting opportunities

Whether you're considering making the move into consulting, already working independently, or looking to grow your MarTech consulting business, Bryan's experience offers practical advice on building credibility, finding clients, delivering value, and creating a sustainable consulting career.

Listen to the full episode for an honest conversation about MarTech consulting, freelancing, networking, client relationships, and building a business around your expertise.

Learn more about SMTC and join the community at MarketingOps.com.

Episode Brought to You By MO Pros 
The #1 Community for Marketing Operations Professionals

Streamline your webinar programs and tap into more data, more content, and far less manual work. Save time, simplify your workflow, and integrate Goldcast.io with your stack.

Support the show