Overloaded: Understanding Neglect Season 4

Show Notes: Episode 4

Today's episode included the following speakers (in the order they appear):

Host: Luke Waldo

Experts:

Prudence Beidler Carr — American Bar Association's Center on Children and the Law

Annessa Hartman — Oregon State Representative

Tshaka Barrows — Haywood Burns Institute

Dr. Nadine Burke Harris — ACE Resource Network and Former California Surgeon General

Samantha Mellerson — Haywood Burns Institute

Episode Segments

00:00–04:29 — Luke Waldo

Introduction: What happens when cultural narratives about unfit parents are codified into federal law? Host Luke Waldo introduces Prudence Beidler Carr, Director of the ABA's Center on Children and the Law, to trace the historical arc of the modern child welfare system and her presentation: "How Poverty Became Neglect in Federal Law and Policy: A 1961 Magic Trick".

4:29–6:39 — Prudence Beidler Carr

Overview of the ABA's Center on Children and the Law — a nonprofit within the ABA serving ~300,000 legal professionals with a staff of 20.

6:39–7:00 — Luke Waldo

What inspired Prudence's research and this nationwide presentation?

7:00–10:34 — Prudence Beidler Carr

In summer 2020, the Commission on Youth and Family Justice was examining racial disproportionality in child welfare. Judge Ernestine Gray pushed for substantive research rather than a surface-level statement. Two catalysts: Donna Wilson's finding that very few Black children were in foster care before the 1960s, and Joyce McMillan's quote: "If foster care was a good thing, Black children would only get in through affirmative action."

10:34–12:16 — Luke Waldo

Sets up the historical walk-through of key policy milestones that built today's foster care system.

12:16–15:52 — Prudence Beidler Carr

Three major pre-1961 shifts: (1) Very few Black children in formal foster care; (2) Rare judicial involvement in child removal; (3) No federal foster care funding until 1961 — that infusion of dollars fundamentally reshaped child welfare law.

15:52–21:32 — Luke Waldo & Prudence Beidler Carr

History of Mother's Pensions and Aid to Dependent Children (ADC) in the early 20th century. "Suitable home" standards were loosely defined by states and caseworkers — fitness to receive assistance, not fitness to parent.

22:30–29:28 — Prudence Beidler Carr

The second New Deal and the Social Security Act (Title IV) structured children's support through ADC. The NAACP, Urban League, and others challenged discriminatory administration. After Brown v. Board of Education (1954), 23 states tightened suitability rules within 4 years to restrict ADC access — effectively using it to push Black and Native American families out of communities to avoid school integration. Caseworkers began threatening removal, not just loss of benefits.

29:28–33:16 — Luke Waldo & Prudence Beidler Carr

The federal government had given states full discretion over ADC, so had no authority to stop discriminatory administration. In the year Ruby Bridges integrated Louisiana schools, the state cut ~23,000 children (95% nonwhite) from public assistance. HHS Secretary Arthur Flemming issued the Flemming Rule to stop this — but included two exceptions: states could still restrict ADC if they tried to "help" the family, or if they removed the child. The second exception effectively incentivized removal.

33:16–41:22 — Prudence Beidler Carr & Luke Waldo

In 1961, for the first time, Congress provided federal funding for foster care maintenance payments — in response to states requesting authority to remove children from homes deemed unsuitable for ADC. The "1961 magic trick": a few words in statute created an entirely new system that shifted from supporting families to separating them. Flemming likely did not intend to create a massive foster care system.

41:22–52:17 — Prudence Beidler Carr

The Child Welfare League of America pushed for judicial oversight of removals, but judges largely rubber-stamped caseworker decisions. In 1962, Congress codified the standard: states receive federal foster care reimbursement when a judge finds it "contrary to the child's welfare" to remain home. No operational definition was provided. The standard was about poverty, not abuse.

52:33–57:15 — Prudence Beidler Carr

The legal structure was never about protecting children from abuse — it was a generic poverty-based removal standard. Dr. Henry Kempe's 1962 "battered child syndrome" article came after the initial surge in foster care entries. By the mid-1960s, two-thirds of foster care placements stemmed from ADC referrals with limited abuse allegations.

57:15–1:05:35 — Prudence Beidler Carr

Before 1960 very few Black children were in formal foster care. By 1977: 28% of all children in foster care were Black; by ~1999: 40%. Congress repeatedly expanded foster care funding (an uncapped entitlement) rather than increasing ADC, structurally incentivizing removal. Prudence reflects on presenting this history: audiences consistently report feeling relieved to understand the system's roots and recognize it wasn't designed to do what they thought they were entering the field to do.

1:05:35–1:10:21 — Luke Waldo & Prudence Beidler Carr

65 years in, we now have intention — we can no longer call harm an "unintended consequence." This is a call to action: "It's the present and it's ours for the remaking."

1:10:21–1:14:47 — Luke Waldo & Prudence Beidler Carr

Reflection on the 1961-62 fork in the road: federal dollars could have been directed to abuse cases OR toward deeper family support. Instead the system lost focus on child protection from imminent harm. Today, 37% of all American children — and 53% of Black children — will experience a child welfare investigation before age 18. The cost extends to all families, echoing Heather McGhee's "drain the pool" metaphor.

1:33:58–1:35:47 — Luke Waldo & Prudence Beidler Carr

Closing remarks. Check out Prudence at the upcoming Together for Children conference.

1:35:47–End — Luke Waldo

Outro: The next episode explores how these narratives manifest as individual experiences and community harm, featuring Dr. Pegah Faed (Safe and Sound), Valerie Frost (national lived experience expert), Claudia Rowe (National Book Awards finalist, Wards of the State), and others.

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Overloaded: Understanding Neglect Season 4

Show Notes: Episode 3: The Stories We Tell Ourselves

Today’s episode included the following speakers (in the order they appear):

Host: Luke Waldo

Experts:

• Annessa Hartman – Oregon State Representative
• Dr. Nadine Burke Harris – ACE Resource Network and Former California Surgeon General 
• Desmond Meade – Florida Rights Restoration Coalition
• Tshaka Barrows – Haywood Burns Institute
• Samantha Mellerson – Haywood Burns Institute
• Dr. Bruce Perry – Child Trauma Academy
• Jessica Moyer – FrameWorks Institute

00:00-02:20 – Luke Waldo - So far this season, we’ve tracked the big picture, the public narratives that shape our culture. We’ve examined the harmful patterns where radical individualism intersects with caregiving that turns collective crises into personal failures and therefore shrink our sense of shared responsibility. But today, we’re going inward.

Today, we turn inward to examine those internal filters, our mental models—the deeply held beliefs that too often divide us and limit our own capacity for change.

Today, we are asking: What happens when those filters limit us? What happens when the stories we tell ourselves keep us from seeing our own power, or the humanity of the person standing right next to us?

This is Episode 3: The Stories We Tell Ourselves.

2:20-2:33 – Media Clips

2:33-2:57 - Luke Waldo – But it’s also a deeply personal one. Before we can change the systems that serve families, we often have to rewrite the internal scripts that tell us we can’t. 

2:57-3:46 – Annessa Hartman – “I had no dreams of becoming a politician by any means, and I ran really with the like conviction that every single person deserved to be at all levels of government, that if certain people can run for higher office, Why can't someone who went to culinary school, who was raised by a single mom who we, you know, had to choose between whether or not she was going to pay a bill versus putting food on the table? Like, why can't people with lived experience be in these positions?” 

• The Shift: Voices of Prevention – Annessa Hartman

3:46-5:07 – Luke Waldo - That is the internal narrative work. It is a story we now tell ourselves because it's the dominant narrative that's been told to us over the years. 

[Media Clips]

How high we reach is often determined by the limits of our imagination. Our imagination is built on the stories that we’ve been told and those that have been withheld or dismissed as unattainable and inaccessible. 

It’s why Annessa had to dismantle a story that said "people like me don't belong in power".

5:07-5:55 – Dr. Nadine Burke Harris – “One of the things that you learn when you're a child and you're exposed to huge amounts of trauma and it persists is is that if you raise your voice, it doesn't do anything. And in my adult life, it has been very important for me to rewrite that narrative, to say, you know what? If I speak up, it does make a difference. We can change outcomes for people.”

• The Shift: Voices of Prevention – Dr. Nadine Burke Harris

5:55-7:07 – Luke Waldo – If we believe the story that our voice doesn't matter, we create and maintain systems that are unresponsive and unaccountable to us, but if we rewrite that script, we create openings for change.

In our first episode, Jess Moyer from FrameWorks warned us about the "individualism" mindset, the idea that people end up where they are solely because of their own choices. When we tell ourselves that story about a parent involved in the child welfare system, or a person returning from incarceration, we distance ourselves. We create an "Other."

7:08-7:48 – Desmond Meade – “The United States, before they bombed Hiroshima Nagasaki, they engaged in this narrative campaign that desensitized people as to the humanities of Japanese and actually dehumanized them, right? And and and and in doing so, when they did drop the bomb and killed all these kids and women, they were celebrating in the streets. Think about it, celebrating in the streets. That's the power of the narrative. A narrative actually controls how we react to atrocities.”

[Media Clip]

• The Shift: Voices of Prevention – Desmond Meade

7:48-8:10– Luke Waldo – Narrative controls how we react to atrocities. It controls whether we celebrate suffering or mourn it.

Desmond’s antidote to this dehumanization isn’t a policy paper. It’s a memory. A story from his childhood that challenges harmful narratives that keep us apart. He calls it the "poison pill" to polarization.

8:10-9:45 – Desmond Meade – “And that poison pill, I believe, is this connectivity that we have.”

The story about Amy.

• Let My People Vote – Desmond Meade

9:45-10:15 – Luke Waldo – If only there were a way to challenge the narrative of division, a cure-all, a simple way to reframe the “Other” into someone familiar. How might you do that? And if you and your organization have been nominated for a Nobel Peace prize for changing hearts and minds of millions of people, you likely had to wrestle with that very question.

10:15-10:53 – Desmond Meade – “Whenever I approach somebody, right? First question I ask Do you know anyone who you love who's ever made a mistake? You know what I say? I say anybody who you love or care about who's ever had a felony conviction. See the difference? You see what I just did, right? Do you know anyone who you love who's ever made a mistake? Right? See what I did there, right? Well, number one, love, right? Number two, it's somebody who you love that you're connected to. And it's not those people, right?” 

10:53-11:19 – Luke Waldo – This is narrative change in action. It shifts the mindset from punishment to shared experiences to empathy.

11:19-11:52 – Annessa Hartman – “If someone could just learn to like help their neighbor instead of just immediately judgment and like learn it, like lean in with curiosity rather than immediate judgment, like what could that do for people? And I think that the same thing could be said in an agency lens, right? Like um, if someone is dealing with substance use, not your bad parent, but why? Like, and what can we do to help you instead of judging you in that way?”

11:52-12:28 – Luke Waldo – But what happens when these old stories, stories of judgment, of separation, of hierarchy, get told over and over again that they feel stuck as if poured in concrete? They become the foundations of our systems.

12:28-13:01 - Tshaka Barrows – “…I often ask people to think about, you know, our railroad tracks and the system that moves all of the cargo across this country. People every day are on these railroad tracks. The width of them. Was it based on study? Is it the most advanced width, you know, that we could come up with? Or is it based on the horse and buggy that they used to build that first set of tracks? And are we still limited by that? Absolutely. That's infrastructure. You know, that's what we're trying to think about in terms of human services and this opportunity to reimagine.”

13:01-13:39 – Samantha Mellerson – “I think it's really important to acknowledge when these systems and institutions were created, they were created for certain folks in mind. We had a lot of people in the population that were not considered human at that time, right? … When you look at the even the history, the root of these foundations, these institutions are rooted in systemic inequities, right? Very deliberate in a time of racial hierarchy.”

• The Shift: Voices of Prevention – Tshaka Barrows and Samantha Mellerson

13:39-14:16 – Luke Waldo – If the tracks were built on a narrative of exclusion, we cannot simply "reform" our way to justice. We have to tell a new story about what the tracks are for, what they are capable of and what they are not.

14:16-15:15 – Dr. Bruce Perry – “There are systems, there are mechanisms that want to put you back in equilibrium. So the status quo of a group is very hard to change, and there are lots of mechanisms that keep, maintain the status quo. And usually your view of the world is something that centers you, that involves the system accumulating resources and power and taking it up to you. And so it's the very rare person who is open-minded enough to actually see that I, we need to change something that will take power away from me.”

• The Shift: Voices of Prevention – Dr. Bruce Perry

15:15-15:26 – Luke Waldo – The story of the system, then, is often the story of self-preservation. To change it requires what Tshaka Barrows calls "reimagining." It requires us to believe that a different way is possible.

15:26-15:53 – Tshaka Barrows – “We need examples of humans figuring it out. What does that look like? Why is our creative juices not pouring in that direction?”

15:53-16:23 – Luke Waldo – We need to shine the light on examples of humans figuring it out. We need new stories. Success stories. Stories of connection, shared aspirations, communal resilience, and thriving communities.

16:23-16:53 – Jess Moyer – “We need to kind of take that lens to every decision that we make together. How will this impact children? And kind of think through that question. Because all the decisions we make about society have some impact on children in some way, and in the same way they impact all of us. They're social issues and that they touch all of our lives. So expanding that concept of care to something that's collective, inclusive, and expansive, I think is something that everybody can do.”

16:53-17:14 – Luke Waldo – When we expand the story of care, we change the logic of systems. We move from a story of fixing broken people to a story of building healing environments.

17:14-17:51 – Dr. Nadine Burke Harris – But one of the things that a panelist mentioned is that the opposite of vision is fear, right? And so I can understand if there's fear there, right? But then I think that there's this incredible opportunity for us to come together, even if there is fear and concerns around solutions, so we don't let that fear get in the way of families getting the access to the services that they need.

17:51-18:06 – Luke Waldo – The opposite of vision is fear.

Dr. Nadine Burke Harris, who has spent her career showing us the link between trauma and health, is now writing a new story about what that trauma actually means. It’s not just harm. It’s power.

18:06-18:47 - Dr. Nadine Burke Harris – “I'm close to the beginning of writing my second book now, and it's called Pain to Power. And it's like our source of our pain is also the source of our superpowers. The fact that ACEs impact all these different sectors is huge. It's a huge toll on our society. ... But it's also the source of our superpower because it means that everyone's got a stake in this. So when we come together and we do it strategically and we're organized and we each play our different part, we can make transformative change.”

18:47-21:47– Luke Waldo – “The stories we tell ourselves can either keep us trapped in fear, fear of the other, fear of losing power, fear that we don't matter, or they can give us the vision to build something new, to play our part in making transformative change. 

I would like to again thank Prevent Child Abuse America for their partnership and the opportunity to co-host their podcast, The Shift: Voices of Prevention, at their 2025 national conference. If you’d like to hear the full episodes where the many voices and clips that you heard today came from, find The Shift wherever you listen to this podcast or you can find the links above.

Today, we turned inward to examine the stories we tell ourselves and how these personal stories scale up to become the very foundations of our systems - systems built like old railroad tracks that were designed for a different time, for some, not all.

But here's the powerful part: we learned that we are the authors of these narratives. Every time we choose curiosity over judgment, every time we see a parent's struggle in context rather than as their character, and every time we speak up when the system tries to silence us, we are editing the script.

But there's another crucial part of this story: how dominant narratives don't just stay in our heads—they become concrete. They transform into policies. They solidify into practices. They get reinforced until they become the systems that govern our lives.

In our next episode, we're going to meet Prudence Beidler Carr, Director of the American Bar Association’s Center on Children and the Law, who will walk us through a pivotal moment in history when a dominant narrative about "unfit parents" became the foundation for the child welfare system as we know it today. We'll explore how the stories we tell about poverty and parenting got confused, then codified into law, and what that means for families still caught in that system. Because if we want to reimagine harmful systems, we first have to understand how narratives built them in the first place.

Closing Credits

Join the conversation and connect with us!

• Visit our podcast page on our ICFW website to learn more about the experts you hear in this series.
• Subscribe, rate our show and leave feedback in the comments section.
• Sign up for our Strong Families, Thriving Children, Connected Communities initiative.
• Follow the Institute for Child and Family Well-being on Facebook, Instagram and LinkedIn.

Overloaded: Understanding Neglect Season 4

Show Notes: Episode 2: “We Need Both”: The Science and Stories of Strategic Communication

Today’s episode included the following speakers (in the order they appear):

Host: Luke Waldo

Experts:

• Jessica Moyer – FrameWorks Institute
• Claudia Rowe – National Book Award Finalist and Seattle Times 
• Dr. Bruce Perry – Child Trauma Academy
• Desmond Meade – Florida Rights Restoration Coalition

00:00-04:22 – Luke Waldo - Jess Moyer and her metaphors from our first episode still have me thinking. Tilling the soil for social change. Not persuading, not convincing, but rather creating the conditions for new ways of thinking to grow.

But what exactly are we tilling? What lies beneath the surface that needs turning over?

Introduction to Jess Moyer and her bio.

I'm honored that Jess has joined us again to serve as my copilot for breaking down and analyzing some of the powerful narrative change efforts that we are hearing this season from many of our other guests. But before we get into some of that conversation, let's start again with what Jess and FrameWorks Institute do and why it's so important in this moment we are living in.

4:22-6:26 – Jessica Moyer – “FrameWorks is a social science research and advocacy organization. We study the relationship between culture and communication, how each of those things kind of shapes and is shaped by the other. And we are really interested in how we can use our communications to engage with how we think as a culture in our sort of shared cultural practices. Our mission is about framing the public discourse and building public will for positive social change.” 

6:26-8:03 – Luke Waldo – Could you elaborate on the difference between a story or an anecdote about a family, for example, and a narrative that pattern of stories? And how does a strategically framed story interrupt an entrenched, harmful narrative?

8:03-10:07 – Jessica Moyer – “Each of those stories, it fills in the details in their own particular ways, but there are common patterns across those stories, and that that commonality is the shared narrative.” 

The “Bootstraps” narrative and The Pursuit of Happyness.

• The Pursuit of Happyness– Chris Gardner

10:07-10:40 – Will Smith - “and don't ever let somebody tell you you can't do something, not even me. All right. You got a dream. You got to protect it. People can't do something themselves. They want to tell you, you can't do it. You want something. Go get it. Period.”

• The Pursuit of Happyness movie

10:40-11:52 – Jess Moyer – “I think an important takeaway here is that it's an insight of the work of narrative change, that we can make some choices. It sometimes seems inevitable that a story gets told in the way that it does, but actually we can tell the same story in so many different ways, and the different ways that we tell it have different implications for how we think in general and can bring about different effects.”

11:52-12:25 – Luke Waldo – I'm going to use an example that I just heard from Claudia Rowe, who wrote a book called Wards of the State: The Long Shadow of American Foster Care. And she talks about a similar Pursuit of Happiness and bootstraps story in which a young man in foster care enters foster care when he's 11,12 years old… 

• Wards of the State: The Long Shadow of American Foster Care – Claudia Rowe

12:25-15:13 – Claudia Rowe and Luke Waldo – The story of Jay and the mentor

15:13-16:10– Luke Waldo – But I'm curious, why do we either ignore that part of the story, right, that that in many ways, our success is as much an outcome of the other people in our lives that believe in us, that invest in us, that lift us up, that pick us back up, right? That, that they, they, they help us put those boots on so that we can pull ourselves up by those bootstraps, right? Why is that part of the story often times ignored, or, for that matter, in some cases, just not told?

16:10-20:03 – Jessica Moyer – “The individualism mindset is so strong and so dominant, it's really easily activated.”

“I think it's also, I mean, it's interesting to think about that person's story and the alternative tellings that are, that maybe require a little bit more work, because we have to get we have to first recognize what the default thinking is, and then actively choose to take a different approach, to try to understand what are the other mindsets that are available that we might want to work hard to to queue up and to build on.”

20:03-21:10 – Luke Waldo – We have to be cognizant of the fact that there are many dominant narratives oftentimes at play in the same moment.

We're put in a position where we if we want to get to curious, we have to really start to ask ourselves, why all of those particular narratives are being triggered in the first place, right?

21:10-22:01 – Claudia Rowe and Luke Waldo – “And as Claudia Rowe, again, said quite a bit in our conversation, is she wanted to tell this story because she was continuously struggling with, she's always been struggling with these, you know, these monikers, these, these frames of she talked about the monster…” 

22:01-22:57 – Luke Waldo – So what is the single most common and harmful framing choice you see advocates make when talking about issues like child welfare or family well-being, and what specific framing choice or choices could or should replace it?

22:57-27:02 – Jessica Moyer – “…some framing choices are harmful, but they're actually a whole lot more of them that are just maybe not actively harmful, but kind of get us stuck, or kind of fail to get us unstuck.”

Communication traps.

27:02-29:24 – Luke Waldo – So in the season, we've heard from Dr Bruce Perry. He talks in in his conversation, and again, hear this whole conversation at The Shift, but he does talk at one point about how people have really connected when he talks about about the brain, the brain feels like science…

• The Shift: Voices of Prevention – Dr. Bruce Perry

29:24-29:46 - Dr. Bruce Perry – “…because the brain's interesting, and for many people, it feels and this is probably not fair, but it feels more like science than when you talk about social science or psychology, which a lot of people have weird biases about. We're saying the same thing. But if you use kind of brain examples, people go, Oh, the brain.”

29:46-30:23 - Luke Waldo – Building off what you just said from a FrameWorks perspective, what is the value of kind of explanatory metaphors, again, like tilling the soil for social change, while also really pairing it or supporting it with concrete science or research or evidence? And do you feel like either the kind of metaphors, the storytelling or the concrete science is more powerful in changing culture and mindsets?

30:23-34:11 – Jessica Moyer – “That's a great question and a fun one to answer, and I'm I think the short answer is that we need both. We absolutely need both to bring science into our communications. And metaphors are a natural way of thinking and talking. We use them all the time, oftentimes without even realizing that we're using them. But also, an interesting thing is, like you sort of alluded to, metaphors are really, are an effective explanatory tool, and that makes them really well suited to translating science. In fact, the earliest work that FrameWorks did was to translate the science of early childhood development the science of brain development, you know, starting in in the earliest days and weeks of life.”

• FrameWorks Institute – Early Childhood and Brain Science

34:11-35:07 – Luke Waldo – So how do you recommend communicators, or how do you recommend that communicators practically do this without losing kind of the human element of the story? And what specific details or contextual factors should we always put in and never leave out?

35:07-37:17 - Jessica Moyer – “I think of it as being about telling a fuller story about people and about our lives and experiences, because we we don't, we don't exist in a vacuum, right? We interact with our surroundings, and we're influenced by our environments, and we influence our environments, and we're shaped by our relationships and the spaces that we occupy. So that's part of putting parents or putting anyone in context is sharing the full kind of experience of their being and everything that they come in contact with and are in relationship with.”

37:17-37:49 - Luke Waldo – What are a few examples of policies or programs that become kind of legible or good examples of forms of caregiving when framed this way? And you know, for one instance, one that we talk about a lot in our work. How do we reframe a discussion about, say, housing assistance as a form of care? 

37:49-40:48 – Jessica Moyer – “I think just by making the connection explicit, and that doesn't have to be a complicated framing choice. Oftentimes really subtle, kind of seemingly very minor, framing choices can have big impacts. In this case, it really matters if we name that there's a connection between, for example, housing policies and the well-being of children, and it's not that hard for folks to see. And also that that lexicon of care, the language of caregiving, is an effective way to do that gives us some tools for doing that.” 

40:48-41:42 – Luke Waldo – Desmond Meade in particular speaks really powerfully about how narratives of the other or them can lead to the dehumanization or demonization of groups of people. He then talks about reframing and building a narrative to activate a sense of us, and he does that through this idea of love.

• The Shift: Voices of Prevention – Desmond Meade

41:42-42:00 - Desmond Meade – “How I push it up is having people see a reason to love someone. No, I think the key is, if we can get people to love who, what they despise the most, or who they hate the most, then they're capable of loving everyone.”

42:00-42:31 – Luke Waldo – First, what do you believe is the strategic risk of telling a story that is too focused on the problem, on tragedy or even deep pain and suffering? And then you know, is there well, by focusing too heavily on need rather than possibility, does that inadvertently reinforce this harmful us versus them or other narrative?

42:31-43:27 – Jessica Moyer – “So the first thing is that when I mean I actually am really inspired by Trabian Shorters, who you may know, and I'm guessing lots of listeners know, who says this part much more beautifully than I'll be able to right now…”

• Trabian Shorters

43:27-43:59 - Trabian Shorters – “I don't run around believing I'm an at risk this, or a low income that, or a high poverty, high crime, like no one carries around those labels, thinking that's how I'm going to face the world. Right? People think about is I want to maybe go to school. I want to maybe someday own a home. I want to maybe possibly get out of this neighborhood, or come back to this neighborhood and build. Whatever that person's aspiration is, if you haven't bothered to acknowledge that aspiration before you engage them, then you've made them an object in the sentence. They are a thing to be dealt with, to be moved, to be manipulated. They are not a person.”

43:59-47:15 – Jessica Moyer – “Even when it is well intentioned, and even when it taps into kind of a sense of concern or sympathy, it also reinforces that idea that there's an us and there's a them, and there's a critical distinction between those two things. It has a way of kind of making us feel different and apart and as if our interests are conflicting rather than shared.”

“That's an easy mindset to queue up and a really, really unhelpful one. There are alternative mindsets, though, and and the good news is there are ways to navigate around that thinking and to kind of push it into the background and to build understanding about our interconnection, our interdependence, the how well being is shared and mutually reinforcing.” 

47:15-49:39 - Luke Waldo - How do we tell stories? 

What stories do we tell when we see someone struggle?

Do we see a bootstraps story, a lone individual overcoming odds, or do we see the mentor who showed them a different path to school? The program that made that mentorship possible? The design of the neighborhood that made one route dangerous and another safe?

Do we focus on problems until people feel fatalistic, or do we till the soil for something new to grow? Do we play in someone else's frame, or do we set the terms of the conversation ourselves?

I would like to again thank Prevent Child Abuse America for their partnership and the opportunity to co-host their podcast, The Shift: Voices of Prevention, at their 2025 national conference. If you’d like to hear the full episodes where the many voices and clips that you heard today came from, find The Shift wherever you listen to this podcast or you can find the links above.

In our next episode, we turn inward to examine those internal scripts. We'll hear from the powerful thought leaders and changemakers that you heard in episode 1 from my collaboration with Prevent Child Abuse America and interviews from The Shift. And we'll explore how these personal stories scale up to become the very foundations of our systems.

49:39 – Luke Waldo – Closing Credits

Join the conversation and connect with us!

• Visit our podcast page on our ICFW website to learn more about the experts you hear in this series.
• Subscribe, rate our show and leave feedback in the comments section.
• Sign up for our Strong Families, Thriving Children, Connected Communities initiative.
• Follow the Institute for Child and Family Well-being on Facebook, Instagram and LinkedIn.

Overloaded: Understanding Neglect Season 4

Show Notes: Episode 1: Tilling the Soil for Social Change

Today’s episode included the following speakers (in the order they appear):

Host: Luke Waldo

Experts:

• Jessica Moyer – FrameWorks Institute
• Dr. Nadine Burke Harris – ACE Resource Network and former California Surgeon General
• Samantha Mellerson – Haywood Burns Institute
• Dr. Bruce Perry – Child Trauma Academy
• Representative Annessa Hartman – Oregon State Representative
• Desmond Meade – Florida Rights Restoration Coalition

00:00-01:59 – Luke Waldo - Over the past three seasons of Overloaded we have explored the forces that overload families, from poverty to social isolation, systemic racism to mistrust of our systems. But this season, we're looking at something more invisible, the stories behind these forces…

[Media clips about narratives behind overloaded families and child welfare]

2:00-3:16 – Luke Waldo - Changing those narratives takes intention, courage and collective effort. Together, we can tell a story that uplifts instead of blames, that prevents harm before it happens. In season four, we're taking apart the stories that define our families, our communities and our future and building better ones together. 

You will hear from the inspiring changemakers that I had the honor of interviewing this past summer at the 2025 Prevent Child Abuse America national conference for their podcast The Shift: Voices of Prevention.

3:17-3:53 – Jessica Moyer – “What we're seeking to change are things that are really entrenched, really embedded. I mean, culture doesn't move quickly.” 

3:53-3:58 – Luke Waldo – What is a narrative?

3:58-6:23 – Jessica Moyer – “Narratives are made up of lots of different stories. So narratives are kind of patterns in stories.”

Defining narrative, stories, mental models, and framing.

“Which ones do we want to kind of cultivate and activate and queue up and utilize, and which are the ones that are holding us back? Which are the ones that are maybe being activated by default but not really helping us? Which ones are unproductive? And how do we steer clear of those? And we do think of it in terms of kind of like we love a good explanatory metaphor at FrameWorks, but we think of it as kind of like tilling the soil for social change. So it's about laying the groundwork that will enable all kinds of decisions and collective actions that will have an impact. But the change that we're seeking is slow, and it happens over a long period of time.”

6:23-7:04 – Luke Waldo – “…narrative is such a powerful force that it impacts how we aspire, where we put our empathy, and even how we react to how trauma affects us and those we love.”

7:04-7:21 – Dr. Nadine Burke Harris – “Let me tell you one of these stories that we've been telling ourselves, one of the stories that we've been telling ourselves as a society is that talking about trauma and adversity does harm.”

7:21-7:58 – Luke Waldo – Even when evidence changes or even our realities, old stories linger, shaping what we see, the way we act and what we ignore. But why? Or maybe how is a better question. How do our mindsets and the narratives that may shape or change them work? How does it all function?

7:58-9:34– Jessica Moyer – “Mindsets are those deeply held, kind of latent, sort of default patterns and thinking they're different from public opinions, because we're not always even aware that we're holding them. They're sort of kind of lenses on the world that we share, that influence how we see the world, how we process new information, and they are durable.”

“Framing has to do with that, the way that we tell stories, the way that we present information. Framing involves lots of different choices in how we communicate. And anytime we're communicating, we're framing. So framing involves things like, what do we put into a particular message? What are the things that we don't say? What tone do we adopt? What values do we appeal to? How do we explain particular concepts? What examples do we draw on to make a particular point or to explain a particular concept?” 

9:34-9:58 – Luke Waldo – “Let’s imagine this all as a tree. If mindsets are the roots, narratives are the trunk. And were we to step back … way back… far enough to see it all … framing is how we describe the forest.”

9:58-10:24 – Jessica Moyer – “Choices, but a lot of times, we're making those choices without realizing that we're making them or making them without realizing what impact they'll have.”

10:24-10:38 – Luke Waldo – “And yet, over and over again, we are often making the same choices, choosing the same narratives and treading the same path. Why is that?” 

10:38-10:49 – Samantha Mellerson – “Somehow we've become so conflict averse that we dare not present an idea that's different or that may be perceived as against the norm of what's happening, right?”

10:49-11:03 - Dr. Bruce Perry – “I think part of the issue is that people tend to view the world and problems from their frame of reference, from where they're standing.”

• What Happened to You? Conversations on Trauma, Resilience, and Healing by Dr. Bruce Perry and Oprah Winfrey

11:03-11:42 - Luke Waldo – But what I love about Frameworks’ approach, and what I’ve learned through Overloaded, is that framing isn’t manipulation, or coercion or even persuasion. It’s stewardship.

It’s about creating the conditions, the mental space where truth and empathy can coexist. Or even better: where it can thrive. How might we do that in the face of harmful, dominant narratives?

11:42-16:13 - Jessica Moyer – Exploration of the individualism and “care matters most” mindsets.

16:13-16:44 - Luke Waldo – “Those mental models are then reinforced by narratives, which can lead to how we behave, pass laws, on-board practices and procedures; it reinforces how we see our overloaded parents, caregivers, and families.”

16:44-17:32 - Dr. Bruce Perry – “And so by and large, really, you know, 40, 50, 60 years ago, uh, the majority of people that were solving problems around education, child welfare, mental health were looking at it through the lenses of an adult.”

17:32-19:00 - Luke Waldo – Story about fatherhood and the “empty vessel” myth.

19:00-19:28 - Annessa Hartman – “I think one common story I often hear from people is that we keep people poor so that they can stay on these services.”

19:28-20:23 – Luke Waldo – “Time and time again, history tells us that when we accept dominant narratives uncritically, we make decisions, often motivated or informed by fear or suspicion, not understanding or empathy.”

[Media clips about overloaded families and child welfare]

20:23-23:32 - Jessica Moyer – “What we found to be most effective in the end was to sort of redefine care itself, to define care much more broadly, to define care as something that is a collective endeavor.”

23:32-24:09 - Luke Waldo – “And what Jess is saying is that by broadening our definition of, in this case, care, we turn empathy into infrastructure for better, more constructive narratives. This is where narrative becomes strategy.”

24:09-24:16 - Annessa Hartman – “We need people who understand what it's like to live paycheck to paycheck.”

24:16-24:32 - Dr. Bruce Perry – “Form real relationships.”

24:32-25:05 - Desmond Meade – “…if we can get people to love who, what they despise the most, or who they hate the most, then they're capable of loving everyone, right?”

25:05-26:47 - Dr. Nadine Burke Harris – “The more you just kind of scrape under the surface and start to look at how these odds are set, right, the more, the easier it is you to recognize the embedding of some of these structural inequities in our society.”

26:47-27:17 – Luke Waldo - When we tell stories that reflect our interdependence, we make it possible for systems to act on that truth.

A final, if not nagging, question Season 4 seeks to answer: How do we do that? 

27:17-29:01 – Jessica Moyer – “So expanding that concept of care to something that's collective, inclusive and expansive, I think, is something that everybody can do.”

29:01-30:40 - Luke Waldo - Narrative change is patient, strategic work. It’s about returning, again and again, to the same truth: that families thrive when communities do.
Every conversation, every story, every small policy that affirms that truth, it all tills the soil. And over time, that soil grows something new: belonging, stability, and shared possibility.

I would like to again thank Prevent Child Abuse America for their partnership and the opportunity to co-host their podcast, The Shift: Voices of Prevention, at their 2025 national conference. If you’d like to hear the full episodes where the many voices and clips that you heard today came from, find The Shift: Voices of Prevention wherever you listen to this podcast or you can find the links below.

• From Pain to Power: Dr. Nadine Burke Harris on Healing and Prevention
• Quantum Leap Possibilities of Prevention with Dr. Bruce Perry
• Reimagining Together: Seeding System Success with Samantha Mellerson and Tshaka Barrows
• Love as a Force for Justice with Desmond Meade
• Policy Through Lived Experience with Rep. Annessa Hartman
• Framing Family Well-Being: From Blame to Belonging | Jessica Moyer

In our next episode, Jess Moyer joins me in the studio to go deeper. We'll explore the mechanics of how narratives work, how mindsets get activated, how stories reinforce or challenge those patterns, and most importantly, how we can make strategic choices in our framing to shift culture and policy. If you've been wondering how to actually apply these ideas in your work, your conversations, or your community, episode two is where we dig into the how.

30:40 - Luke – Closing Credits

Join the conversation and connect with us!

• Visit our podcast page on our ICFW website to learn more about the experts you hear in this series.
• Subscribe, rate our show and leave feedback in the comments section.
• Sign up for our Strong Families, Thriving Children, Connected Communities initiative.
• Follow the Institute for Child and Family Well-being on Facebook, Instagram and LinkedIn.

0:08 - Luke Waldo: The first three seasons of Overloaded explored the forces that overload families from poverty to social isolation, systemic racism to mistrust of our systems. But this season, we're looking at something more invisible, the stories behind those forces. And how stories shape what we believe, how we act, and who we hold responsible.

Join me, Luke Waldo, on Wednesday, February 4th for season 4 of Overloaded: Understanding Neglect, where we're taking apart the stories that define our families, our communities, and our future, and building better ones together.

Through conversations with changemakers like Frameworks Institute’s Jess Moyer…

0:59 – Jess Moyer: What we're talking about is kind of an ambitious endeavor. And what we're seeking to change are things that are really entrenched. 

1:08 – Luke Waldo: Doctors Nadine Burke Harris and Bruce Perry…

1:11 – Dr. Nadine Burke Harris: Do you want me to speak truthfully?

1:13 - Dr. Bruce Perry: People tend to view the world and problems from their frame of reference.

1:18 - Dr. Nadine Burke Harris: The more you just kind of scrape under the surface the easier it is to recognize that those structures are not accidental.

1:28 – Luke Waldo: National Book Award finalist Claudia Rowe…

1:31 - Claudia Rowe: Some of those storylines have not changed all that much, and I am surprised, frankly, that I still encounter them even up to, you know, like last week.

1:42 – Luke Waldo: American Bar Association Center on Children and the Law Director Prudence Beidler Carr…

1:47 - Prudence Beidler Carr:  We've essentially created a mechanism for determining that a child who was living in a home where the parents were found unfit, not because they've abused their child, not because there's an imminent risk of harm, not because that child has experienced a safety issue, but because the parents sought help, were rejected from that help, and now unfit to care for their child, so their child is removed from their care.

2:15 – Luke Waldo: National Lived Experience Leader Valerie Frost…

2:18 – Valerie Frost: You know it’s really humbling to have systems involvement in that way that’s shocking. Because I now know, for the rest of my life, I don’t really have anything. Right now, on this call, CPS could come knock on my door, they could go pick up my kids from school. They could do any day.

2:36 – Luke Waldo: And Anti-Hate Advocate Pardeep Singh Kaleka amongst many others, we explore the question: “What stories shape how we see the world? And how can we tell them differently?

2:49 – Pardeep Singh Kaleka: Maybe we can go past what we say about each other…

2:55 – Luke Waldo: Join us on Wednesday, February 4th when we premiere season 4 wherever you listen to your podcasts.

Luke Waldo 00:04

Welcome to season 3 of Overloaded: Understanding Neglect, where we explore how we might change the conditions that overload families with stress, so that families can thrive and children grow up with a strong foundation built on positive childhood experiences. 

Hey everyone, this is Luke Waldo, your host for this podcast series and the Director of Program Design and Community Engagement for the Institute for Child and Family Well-being, our partnership between Children’s Wisconsin and the University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee’s Helen Bader School of Social Welfare. 

Luke Waldo 00:47

This season’s bonus episode was inspired by our collaboration with Children’s Home Society of America or CHSA and the upcoming Wicked Problems Institute national convening on November 13th and 14th. The Wicked Problems Institute will bring together CHSA’s state-based member organizations and a team of partners from their state including individuals with lived expertise, philanthropists, public agency leaders, researchers, elected officials, health care providers, community-based advocates and others committed to improving the lives of children and families. 

I have the great honor of opening Wicked with the powerful conversation you are about to hear with 7 lived experience changemakers from across the country. Their diverse lived experiences shed a bright light on what is weighing most heavily on them about families’ well-being right now, and how leaders should respond differently if they want to build a better future with families. Now on to the conversation.

We are living in a moment that demands both urgency and reflection. Families are experiencing rapid shifts in policy, resources, and daily life. The Wicked Problems Institute 2025 offers a rare space to pause, learn, and generate fresh thinking that leads to stability, connection, positive experiences, health, and well-being for families and their communities. 

As we welcome you to this year’s Wicked Problems Institute - The Future We Shape Together: Real Solutions for Families in Changing Times – let’s start our two days together by listening to what is weighing most heavily on caregivers and families and what is needed to lighten the overload. 

Welcome. I'm Luke Waldo, as we welcome all of you to Wicked Problems 2025 we wanted to ask the question of what is weighing most heavily on you. As a caregiver, as someone who's been impacted by the child welfare system, as somebody who's part of their community, and this is what we had to say.

Valerie Frost 02:46

My name is Valerie Frost. My favorite title is mom. I am based here in Kentucky, and I have lived experience with public assistance, child welfare and court systems. 

So what's weighing on me most heavily right now about family well-being is how out of reach it feels, and that's because of power who holds it and who is blocked from having any those with the most power over policies and programs, they tend to be the furthest from the realities that families live. Families and systems are becoming more and more disconnected. 

So I remember when my twins were in the NICU, how Medicaid covered their stay, and I'm grateful for that, but afterward, constant authorizations made caring for infants with developmental needs hard. During my second pregnancy, my childcare assistance was cut off because of a verification error, and I was charged for a denied appeal the same month I gave birth. I've had three CPS investigations that offered no support and only exasperated the situation I was found in. I know these systems because I am living them, but too often my voice, and voices like mine are the least heard or completely left out. Families are not failing, systems are.

Michael Huesca 04:09

Hello everyone and welcome. My name is Michael Huesca. I'm a birth father who has been impacted by the child welfare system, and I'm here elevating the voices of families and parents. 

What weighs heavily on me is really a collective of things. Right now, for black and brown folks that are in our country, it's a scary time. It is a time where children are experiencing the highest level of anxiety and trauma, whether they are going to see their parents, whether their parents are going to be harmed, whether they're going to be harmed, is such a fear for so many children today and for so many families. What worries me is this is another barrier for us giving help to families. Who's going to ask for help when they're fearing the very government that might be asking to offer that said help? I think that's a real big challenge. 

And additionally, it's been decades that we know fathers are important for families and children well-being yet we have yet been able to authentically engage those and so it's our hope, it's my hope, that we're able to have conversations about strategies that could be effective in solving some of these solutions.

Derreasha Jones 05:35

Hi, my name is Derreasha Jones. I am coming from the Children's Home Society of Florida, and today I identify with change makers and community advocates. 

It's weighing heavily on me that these issues are not new. It shows us that things are getting worse for our families. Historically, our families have been trying to build stability and systems that weren't even designed for them to thrive, and so they've climbed and climbed and climbed, and here they go to fall again. And instead of trying to build a net to save them, why were they falling in the first place? And so we have to look at history the way that it is, without erasing it, rewriting it or acting like it's not there. And so we all know that the cost of living keeps rising, but wages and resources haven't kept pace, and that creates a ripple effect on mental health, relationships and child development. 

Sonia Cohen 06:31

Hello.I am Sonia Marie Cohen, lived expert, consultant and Child and Family Well Being advocate as well as an impacted young person, not so young anymore by both the child welfare and justice system. 

You know what's weighing on me the most when I watch, oh, man, it's an accumulation of everything that families are being asked to hold. I think about families that I work alongside with every day I think about my family, my own story, which is often unburied, as I sit back and watch time after time harm be perpetuated against our young people and families. And I think about often what it means to grow up in systems that were supposed to protect us, to protect our families, to protect our young people, but instead fractured the very fabric of our beingness, our sense of safety, our sense of trust and our sense of belonging. 

It aches me to watch the harm continuing to see families, especially those mostly impacted by poverty and racism and generational trauma, still having to prove their worthiness of support and healing of human dignity and resources, quite frankly, that are essential to them surviving to their well-being. It's heartbreaking. What also saddens me is how little we're prioritizing healing and well-being at a time such as this, when families need it the most, the spaces that hold people together, the communities and resource centers that are always constantly there, the healing circles, the gathering hubs, the services, the resources that families and young people trust and rely on, truly rely on, that now they're at risk of losing funding. 

I you know, often think about how we make this commitment and do this work from a place of we want families to be well. We want families to be better, yet we're watching the very programs that make that possible, the support, the wellness, the healing possible. We're watching them struggle to survive. Healing cannot happen in scarcity. If we truly want families to heal, to stay strong, to feel safe, to feel together, to be together, we must invest in the people and the places that create that sense of belonging, safety and collective healing.

Titianna Goings 08:57

Hello, I'm Titianna Goings, located in Raleigh, North Carolina, and I am identifying with kinship caregivers. 

Economic and financial strains weigh most heavily on me regarding families’ well-being. In my opinion, work life balance is also essential to the well-being of families. With the rise in housing costs, childcare expenses and the price of groceries, that balance becomes interrupted. We must strengthen community support systems, advocate for family friendly workplace policies and promote financial security initiatives that help families meet their basic needs and maintain a healthy work life balance.

Shana King 09:36

My name is Ida’akube Xuba’ash Mia, Holy Owl Woman in Hidatsa, and my English given name is Shana King. I am a parent mentor at the ICWA Law Center in Minneapolis. I am somebody who aged out of foster care and then I became a parent who was involved in the system as well. I successfully reunified with my children. I am here to reach everybody who works in the child welfare system. 

What weighs on me most in this current times is watching an entire race of people's families be torn apart, and what's going to happen to those children in the future. I've seen it happen to my people, and I have, I'm a product of that. I can trace our historical trauma that happened to Indigenous people down my family tree, including me and my children. I think about the adoption era and the boarding school era and how people were just okay with that and how that has so impacted my people today, and now I'm watching that again. 

I also work in the Indigenous community, so I am dealing with families who are impacted by ICWA, and the generational and historical trauma that caused is hard to overcome, and now I'm watching it happen to an entire race of people based on their skin color, which includes my people too. And I just really hope that we bring some humanity back into our lives and into what we see every day that we can work with these families. We know the trauma that this causes on people due to what is going on with Black and Brown people currently. So we need to do better for our families today, because we know that we're going to have some trauma coming up in our future.

Dony Jean Charles  11:35

Hello, I'm Dony Jean Charles, Communications and Marketing Manager for Children's Home Society of Florida, and my lived experience is being a product of Community Partnership Schools. 

What's been weighing on me the most is capacity in terms of families, what they're dealing with on a daily basis, all the obstacles they encounter, and where they can counteract those obstacles with resources, support and community. How can you think of watering someone else's lawn when you still have to tend to yours?

Luke Waldo 12:15

So over the next day and a half, what are we going to do about it? Here's our call to action.

Titianna Goings 12:21

Families in crisis should have access to strong community resources such as food programs and affordable, safe childcare. Employers who promote family friendly workplaces play a key role in restoring work life balance for those in less flexible jobs, it's essential to set boundaries, prioritize meaningful tasks and practice self-care to maintain stability and well-being. Get moving. Advocate.

Valerie Frost 12:49

if we want a better future, leaders need to center lived experience. Lead with families, not just for them, and close the gap between intent and impact. Traditional leaders need to share power with humility. When proximity and lived experience guide leadership, when systems are built with families instead of around them, that's when they will truly serve.

Michael Huesca 13:14

What we need to do is put humanity back into human services. We need to meet families where they are, and that's not just a cliche that's really, truly showing up and supporting where they need the support, listening to what families need. We need to stop marginalizing and separating individuals and welcome community and collaborations together. We have solutions, but we need to be heard.

Derreasha Jones 13:47

We have to make sure that the communities that we are serving have a seat at the table. We can't just give them a service. We have to try to meet their specific needs. We want to make sure that there is representation at all levels of decision making. We also want to make sure that the decisions that we're making are not short term, but they're long term. We're not thinking about an individual, but we're thinking about their families and their children and the generations that come after that. We have to remember to treat our families with dignity, because they are still the leaders of their own lives.

Sonia Cohen 14:22

I think about how much courage it takes to center humanity and healing over hierarchy, to actually sit to listen, to value, to design the future of families with families so that healing is possible.

Shana King 14:38

We need to have come to this space with an open mind. And when we look at the children we're working with, the moms and the dads, we need to realize that they're human and that they need to heal from whatever has caused them to be in this space in the first place, and think outside of the box. Think of where that family comes from, what traditions they have. Think about adding culture into case plans so that families can truly heal and not come back into the system.

Dony Jean Charles 15:04

My call to action is to empathize to reflect, reflect to build, and build to cultivate true community.

Everyone 15:14

So let's step into our conversations at Wicked with open hearts, open ears, with open hands, ready to listen, learn and act together.

Luke Waldo 15:27

I want to thank each and every one of the seven changemakers who shared their lived experience with me and all of you today. May we be moved by what's weighing most heavily on them, and inspired and guided by their calls to action. 

Thank you for listening and for showing up. I hope you will join the conversation at Wicked and again soon as Season Four of Overloaded launches in 2026.

Today’s episode included the following speakers (in the order they appear):

Host: Luke Waldo

Experts:

• Kate Luster – Director of Human Services, Rock County Department of Human Services

:04-:44 – Kate Luster - “Co-design was very different in which the parents have truly influenced and driven what our priorities will be moving forward, how we will go about implementing. They have been a regular resource for us to really help share that power of making decisions about what should happen as we work to improve our system and to grow resources in the community.”

:55- - Luke Waldo – Opening, introduction to Kate Luster and Rock Families First, and welcome.

3:37-3:40 – Kate Luster – Thank you

3:41-4:01 – Luke Waldo – Why is Rock Families First needed today?

4:02-7:32 – Kate Luster – Rock Family First is a response to the disproportionality that Black families have experienced with the Child Protective Services in Rock County. It was also a response to the national shift within CPS to the Family First Prevention Services Act. Focusing on Black families in Beloit and how we can learn from them as to what works and what doesn’t allow us to scale up improved changes.

• Rock Families First
• Families First Prevention Services Act
• Alia

7:33-7:43 – Luke – Can you elaborate on the disparities in Rock County?

7:44-8:44 - Kate – Black families make up 22% of Child Protective Services involved families while they only make up 7% of the county’s population. 

8:45-9:08 – Luke – What did Rock Families First hope to change or accomplish? What were the key strategies that were employed to advance it?

9:09-16:23 – Kate – Promote child and family well-being through partnership. 

1. Increase satisfaction in engagement for Black families living in Beloit, 
2. Safely reduce the total number of out-of-home placements, and 
3. Eliminate racial disparities in CPS.  

A Community Cultivator is a partner from Beloit who has been a bridge to Black families in Beloit with lived experience with CPS. This has led to a co-design process with many families within our community. 

• The Idea Book
• The BeeHive

16:24-18:23 – Kate – This co-design process was very different as it was led by the community partners. They had influence and decision-making power from the beginning until now beyond the initial plan. 

• Human-Centered Design

18:24-18:59 - Luke – We have been talking a lot this season about authentic engagement with lived experience experts. Can you share more on how that relationship and process worked? 

19:00-31:31 - Kate – Co-design was central to this initiative, but we didn’t just jump into it. We first did a lot of preparation on our teams. We then worked to build trust with our community. We invested in the well-being of our staff and teams, and the trust in their leaders. We developed a two-year well-being process to ensure that leaders were responsive to staff needs. The culture changed, which led to a mindset shift that prepared us to be more responsive to our community’s needs and co-design. The system had not been designed to be family-centered. It was punitive, which put staff in a difficult position. Kate tells her story about her apology to families and the community. 

31:32-32:52 - Luke – It takes courage to do what you did. People come to do this work with good intentions as they want to help children and families. What did it take to implement Rock Families First?

32:53-43:47 – Kate – We have seen a significant drop in the number of families in out of home care in CPS. We have reallocated a lot of our funds to prevention and early intervention services. We have created a position that provides in-home safety supports. 

Parents and staff came together to co-design a new practice model. This has been translated into new standards and best practices for staff. Community engagement and communication have been developed through Parent Cafes. There was a strong balance between professionals with experience with developing communication plans and the lived experience understanding of what will connect with the community. 

Now we are in the phase of moving forward with accountability. We are partnering with prevention and early intervention organizations, so that they can work with families that may be overloaded but don’t need the intervention of CPS. 

• Family Support Program Services - Family Resource Navigator, Family Support and Preservation Specialist, In-Home Safety Supports
• Parent Cafes

43:48-4:03 - Luke – As a partner of ours with SFTCCC, it’s promising to hear the work that you are doing in the Workforce Innovation and Inclusion space. Can you expand on the workforce well-being work that you’ve done?

42:04-49:07– Kate – Culture change that empowers staff to say what they need. Caseload sizes were reduced. Provided education on the impacts of family separation, bias, systemic racism, and the opportunities to do and be better. They were given a safe space to process this and think differently.

Parents Supporting Parents program are part of the continuum of resources and supports.

Invest in our leadership development and strategy to support leaders to support staff.

• Parents Supporting Parents program

49:08-50:38 - Luke Waldo – This initiative has led to a significant and community-changing outcome that SFTCCC aspires to. What would you leave our audience with that you’ve learned from this movement?

50:39-54:58 - Kate – When we authentically engage with our community and believe in them, real change can happen. 

54:59-55:26 – Luke – Thank you.

55:27-55:28 – Kate – Thank you.

55:37-57:45 - 3 Key Takeaways 

1. “Build a trust and well-being culture with real intention.” As Kate shared, this culture took years to develop, and ultimately created a safe environment through supportive and responsive leaders and an empowered workforce who speaks up, asks for what they need, and has the capacity to share power and decision-making with the people they serve. 
2. “Center a new mindset of thinking about working with families differently, centering families.” This started, as Kate courageously shared, with acknowledging the harm that our systems have done to families. From there, we can move from being punitive to being partners who center families to build trust and begin healing through meaningful change, accountability and committed action. 
3. Write your Idea Book and Build your BeeHive. As Kate says, “[Co-design was very different in which the] Parents have truly influenced and driven what our priorities will be moving forward, how we will go about implementing. They have been a regular resource for us to really help share that power of making decisions about what should happen as we work to improve our system and to grow resources in the community.”

57:52- - Luke Waldo – Closing Credits

Join the conversation and connect with us!

• Visit our podcast page on our ICFW website to learn more about the experts you hear in this series.
• Subscribe, rate our show and leave feedback in the comments section.
• Sign up for our Strong Families, Thriving Children, Connected Communities initiative and our quarterly newsletter.
• Follow the Institute for Child and Family Well-being on Facebook, Instagram and LinkedIn.

Today’s episode included the following speakers (in the order they appear):

Host: Luke Waldo

Experts:

• Bryan Samuels – Chapin Hall

:07-:39 – Bryan Samuels - Is the goal that you’re trying to get engagement? Or is the goal you’re trying to get ownership? And when you think about ownership, then you have to think about going the extra mile.

:42-3:24 - Luke Waldo – Opening, introduction to Bryan Samuels and the Systems Transformation Through Community Leadership report.

3:25-10:15 - Bryan – Disrupting System Mindsets

• When there are power imbalances, you often don’t get meaningful change. 
• You also need to shift the mental models away from where systems and communities address negative issues and move to where positive things occur.
• Infrastructure and coordinated planning.
• Continuous Quality Improvement is also needed to check in to see if the process is working for everybody. 
• Establishing a common language can build momentum towards change.
• Community needs to have agency as to how resources are used. 
• Power-building may start with different levels of power, but it should aspire to share power and decision-making. 

10:16-19:15 – Bryan – Investing in Communities

• Marginalization has occurred throughout history due to race and racism and income inequality. 
• Investing in resources that will support those community partners who have been marginalized, so that they can participate. Childcare, food, compensation, as they likely worked a full day and are not being paid to participate like the professionals who are. 
• Systems need to actively seek out participants to ensure that the community’s diversity is fully represented at the table. Using surveys, taking polls, engaging in different ways to ensure full representation. 
• Take the time to build trust. 
• Leverage people’s unique strengths. 
• Pausing long enough to ensure that participants understand the systems that you are trying to transform. 
• Recognition that people need to be compensated for the work that they are contributing. 

19:16-28:47 - Bryan – Reimagine Community Engagement

• Engagement is more than a one-time commitment.
• Building relationships and ensuring that community residents understand what is being proposed and giving them the opportunity to set priorities.
• Creating a shared vision for the future.
• Community residents and community providers often have different power and experiences.
• Who does the community hold in high regard? Find them and bring them to the table.

28:48-39:18 - Bryan – Community Leadership

• Getting ownership means that the community sees the change as theirs. 
• Are you trying to get engagement or ownership?
• Creating a decision-making and governance structure helps create ownership. A ladder of opportunity acknowledges that not everyone comes to the table with the same experience or knowledge, so this allows for growth that makes them more capable than when they arrived. 
• Sometimes we rely too often on champions. You need to move beyond the people that will say the right thing and find the people that will defend the right thing. 
• Sharing in the budgeting process. Systems leaders often know what the budget is, but the community itself doesn’t. Maybe we have fewer meetings, so that we can feed people who are attending. 
• May need to pause throughout the process to leave the room and allow the community to be in the room with one another to determine if things are progressing towards ownership for them. 
• Tenant housing example. 

39:19-48:20 - Bryan – Embedding Community Leadership

• Creating a process and space that promotes long-term engagement for the community and ultimately ownership. Infrastructure promotes trust and engagement. 
• CQI mechanism is important to check in and validate with the community that things are going well. If they aren’t, then you make changes. 
• Create agreements that there will be open communication about what isn’t working. 
• Regularity is important so that people know what to expect. 

48:21-52:20 - Bryan – Use the podcast as inspiration to dive more deeply into the bulletins and build a strategy from both.

52:21-52:50 - Luke – This conversation has been both inspirational and instructive. Gratitude.

52:52-55:00 – Luke - 3 Key Takeaways 

1. Power Sharing is a Foundation for Equity
   “When communities, systems leaders, and providers come together, they start from unequal footing. Moving toward equity at the table requires intentional planning to share power from the very beginning.”
2. Moving from Storytelling to Engagement
   “Engagement isn’t a one-time checkbox; it’s a long-term relationship with a commitment to removing barriers. It’s not just about inviting people to the table—it’s about ensuring they have the time, resources, and support to stay there and contribute fully. Communities need time to process, prioritize, and incubate ideas, creating shared visions that reflect their lived experiences and expertise.”
3. Moving from Engagement to Ownership “Ownership happens when the community sees the strategy not as a system-led initiative but as a reflection of their values, their priorities, and their contributions. It’s a process that builds commitment and sustainability.” As system professionals, we can facilitate and empower that ownership by providing clear and predictable processes for those we serve. Through structure like regular meetings, transparent decision-making, and clear roles, we create a foundation for trust and meaningful participation.

55:05-56:53 - Closing Credits

Join the conversation and connect with us!

• Visit our podcast page on our ICFW website to learn more about the experts you hear in this series.
• Subscribe, rate our show and leave feedback in the comments section.
• Sign up for our Strong Families, Thriving Children, Connected Communities initiative and our quarterly newsletter.
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Today’s episode included the following speakers (in the order they appear):

Host: Luke Waldo

Experts:

• Bryan Samuels – Chapin Hall

:11-:33 - Bryan Samuels - I think at the end of the day, there are lots of folks that want change. There aren't a ton of folks that have realized that change. And for that, it often requires some of us to bring forward the best thinking so that people can take advantage of experiences that others have had, so that it might inspire and direct their efforts.

:42-4:55 – Luke Waldo – Introduction to Systems Transformation Through Community Leadership report, Bryan Samuels’ bio, and welcome.

Why is systems transformation needed today in the US? 

• Systems Transformation Through Community Leadership – Chapin Hall

4:56-6:33 - Bryan – How can we make services more effective and more equitable? How can systems change to meet the needs of diverse populations?

Chapin Hall was motivated out of a sense that there was a window of opportunity to contribute to the growth and change and direction for the country, and to bring some unique insight into how systems go about changing themselves in order to respond to the needs of a diverse population of families that they serve. 

6:34-7:01 – Luke – Can you expand on why Chapin Hall felt that our systems weren’t meeting the diverse needs of our children, families and communities?

7:02-10:54 – Bryan – How do systems take a limited amount of resource and share them equitably? Many of our most marginalized communities have received less services and resources. Over 50% of Black children are investigated by CPS. Families living in poverty are disproportionately investigated by CPS. 

Chapin Hall believes that we are living a moment where many want change, so we are providing them with some of the best thinking and tools from across the country to enact that change.

10:55-11:18 – Luke – What does Chapin Hall hope to change or accomplish with the Systems Transformation blueprint? What are some of the key components of the blueprint?

11:19-13:30 – Bryan – Connect the dots between what people were proposing and what we know works. And so we wanted to look at these questions: 

Does community engagement and engaging folks with lived experience produce better results? 

Does systems change happen when the only people making the change happen are people leading the system right? 

Do folks have the skills they need to be successful in the long term? 

Do we have the right resources at the table to enable real, meaningful long-term change to occur? 

There were lots of lessons learned. So even in failure, there were things that one could conclude about what you would do better the next time.

13:31-13:51 – Luke – Can you expand on those lessons learned?

13:52-17:51 - Bryan – Lessons learned.

1. Top-down approaches to systems change rarely work. 
2. Systems change takes time. 
3. Community engagement requires greater commitment. 
4. Skill-building for community engagement is needed. 
5. Shared leadership, decision-making and power are essential to larger change processes. 

17:52-18:47 – Luke – Can you outline those 5 key strategies for us and how you came to them?

18:48-20:48 - Bryan – Conducted focus groups and learned from system leaders to inform this process along with reviewing the research. There are 5 principles.

• Disrupt System Mindsets
• Invest in Community
• Reimagine Community Engagement
• Transform Systems with Community in the Lead
• Embed Community Leadership 

20:49-21:10 - Luke – Gratitude.

21:11-23:33 - Bryan – “Opportunity to speak to these issues are near and dear to me.” Bryan’s experience that speaks to why this work is so important to him. 

23:34-27:03 – Luke – 3 Key Takeaways 

1. “Even in failure, there were things that one could conclude about what you would do better the next time.” This is such an important reminder that we are doomed to repeat our failures if we fail to make the time to learn from them the first time.
2. “If you want to move a system, you’ve got to have people at every level of that system sharing in the goals and objectives, and committed to achieving the change that one might aspire to. The same is true for community, who should have a role in leadership and decision-making.”
3. “There are lots of folks who want change, there are not a lot of folks who have realized that change, and for that it requires some of us to bring about the best thinking so that people can take advantage of experiences that others have had so that it may inspire and direct their efforts.” May this episode and next week’s deep dive into Chapin Hall’s best thinking serve as inspiration and direction for all of us.

Closing Credits

Today’s episode included the following speakers (in the order they appear):

Host: Luke Waldo

Experts:

• Samantha Copus – Jefferson County Parents Supporting Parents

:04–:33 – Samantha Copus – “That's the main piece. That's the secret sauce of peer support. Is connection, is that you can show me the part of you that you think is the worst, and I'm still going to show up and tell you, like, Oh, that's okay. How do we move forward? How do you want to move forward? Because nothing you've done changes what I think you're worth, and I'm still going to show up and support you. And I think that's when you start breaking down those barriers and giving these parents, you know, something they couldn't get anywhere else.”

:41-3:29 – Luke – Opening, Samantha’s Bio, and Opening

The history of peer support goes back long before we had formal systems like child protection or mental health. 

It wasn’t until fairly recently that these peer support and mentor models were translated to child welfare. So I wanted to learn more about the model that is being implemented in Wisconsin.

Parents Supporting Parents is a peer support program designed in Iowa for parents involved in the Child Protection System that is now implemented here in a handful of counties across Wisconsin. 

Samantha Copus is a mother to two children and identifies as a person in long term recovery. Samantha has a variety of lived experiences ranging from mental health, substance use disorders, domestic violence and being a mother who had a child in the child welfare system, all which qualify her now to serve as a parent partner in Jefferson County as part of the Parents Supporting Parents program. 

3:29-3:37 – Samantha – Thank you.

3:38-4:01 - Luke – Why are peer support programs such as Parents Supporting Parents needed today? 

4:02-5:02 – Samantha – What we were doing without it wasn’t working. Families weren’t feeling heard, weren’t feeling connected. 

“You wouldn’t hire a tour guide that’s never been to that destination.”

5:03-6:00 – Luke – I’d like to dive deeper into the ‘why’ behind one of today’s focus areas: social connectedness. Why do you think peer support—and your role as a parent partner in the Parents Supporting Parents program—is so critical to improving social connectedness for the caregivers and parents you serve?"

6:01-9:07 – Samantha – Parenting alone can be isolating. Peer support allows for non-judgmental showing up and walking the journey with the parent. 

“It’s the child welfare system, not the parent welfare system. Who’s going to be looking after these parents who are looking out for their children?”

Social connection is the secret sauce that breaks down barriers and allows the parent to share their darkest moments and still know that that person will keep showing up.

9:08-10:04 – Luke – This perspective helps explain why there is growing momentum behind the incorporation of lived experience into our systems and decision-making. It’s difficult to teach the emotional experience of being on the other side of child welfare. 

It is important to take that first step of acknowledging that lived experience should be a part of our systems. It’s another to scale it so that it can have a greater impact. 

So what does Parenting Supporting Parents do? And what does it hope to accomplish or change in the child welfare system and for parents and caregivers?

10:05-13:20 – Samantha – Parents Supporting Parents (PSP) is an evidence-based program out of Iowa that is voluntary for parents involved in the child welfare system. The program is growing across the state – Rock, Milwaukee, Eau Claire, Jefferson. 

We are also looking at it moving further upstream so that we can work with families to prevent child welfare involvement. Rock County hired two parents who previously worked with a PSP partner.

13:21-14:21 - Luke – It can be difficult to scale promising models, so it is promising to hear that Parents Supporting Parents is scaling across the state and within counties. What are some of the key components of your role? How do they impact the parents that you serve? 

14:22-19:09 - Samantha – Parent Partners support parents at court, by transporting them to services, processing through what they need during those car rides or on the phone, referring to services. Sharing space. Providing another voice of lived experience during meetings with professionals. 

Participate in trainings on foster care placements to provide additional perspective. Peer support in a system shows that we are seeking alignment to find solutions for families.

“I think having peer support embedded in your system is a system that is ready to hold itself accountable.”

19:10-20:54 – Luke – The magic happening during those drives - to appointments or court—when the most honest conversations often take place. It’s something that’s hard to evaluate or formalize or even train staff on in a program, but as you said, these moments are critical for connection and building trust, particularly for people who’ve been isolated by challenges like domestic violence or substance use.

Given how demanding this work can be—requiring, for example, you to revisit some of your darkest moments—how important is it for you to have other parent partners to confide in or lean on when you’re feeling overloaded?"

20:55-24:35 - Samantha – They are the supports I didn’t know that I needed. Parent Partners work closely together. 

24:36-25:03 - Luke – Where do you see the greatest impact in your 18 months, almost two years in this role?

25:04-30:27 – Samantha – At the macro-level, it’s been great seeing more and more people interested in this work. At the micro-level, the change that can happen when there’s one healthy, supportive person in someone’s life. “I have had a client tell me that they told me something that they’ve never told anyone before.”

Transformation can happen when people feel connected and believed in. Child welfare workers value her perspective and support of the parent. 

“The single most frustrating thing is screaming and feeling like no one can hear you.”

“Having peer support embedded can keep people compassionate instead of complacent.” 

30:28-33:09 - Luke – Social isolation is a growing crisis. The U.S. Surgeon General’s 2023 report on social isolation and loneliness highlighted this epidemic, and more recently, a report on parents’ mental health revealed that nearly half of all parents feel overwhelmed by stress most days. It’s sobering but underscores the importance of building social connectedness.

• Our Epidemic of Loneliness and Social Isolation - US Surgeon General
• Raj Chetty

With that in mind, I’d love for you to reflect on how your role as a parent partner aligns with our four critical pathways, which are:

1. Social Connectedness;
2. Economic Stability;
3. Community Collaborationwhere we hope to improve coordination among systems and services to better serve families. And finally, 
4. Workforce Inclusion and Innovation, which looks at how we might diversify the workforce to reflect those being served and also address challenges like burnout.

Feel free to take this in any direction that you’d like.

33:10-38:02 - Samantha – PSP is evidence-based which has shown to lower reentry rates for those that have had a Parent Partner. Parent Partners assist a lot with Economic Stability by creating bridges to housing and food stability, access to benefits and job opportunities. Lived Experience partners stand between theory and reality. 

$2000 prescription metaphor. In theory it works, in practice the patient can’t afford it. 

Mandated reporting is mandated supporting in the PSP world. 

38:03-39:42 - Luke - How might communities implement a role like parent partners or a program like Parents Supporting Parents?

For those listening who are inspired by this model, what do you believe are the critical conditions for implementing and scaling it?

Beyond that, what other conditions, practices, or opportunities do you think are essential to successfully implement and scale this model? And how do we ensure there are enough parent partners and enough support for you to meet the demand within each community?"

39:43-43:20 - Samantha – Contact Department of Children and Families. This work requires authenticity. Look around your community as there are likely lived experience helpers already doing the work. Make it an equitable relationship with your peers. 

• Department of Children and Families

43:21-44:32 - Luke – This conversation has been both inspirational and instructive. It challenges our mental models and hopefully moves us to consider the importance of equity and the role that lived experience brings to it. Gratitude.

44:33-44:52 - Samantha – Thank you! 

44:53-45:07 – Luke – Thank you, Samantha!

45:12-46:53 - Luke – 3 Key Takeaways 

1. “You wouldn’t hire a tour guide that’s never been to that destination.” As Samantha goes on to say, this doesn’t take away from the knowledge, expertise, and dedication of system staff. Rather, it’s a powerful statement about the deep personal experience and understanding of the system from a parent who has been through it that can provide a complementary perspective to paint a more complete picture.
2. “The secret sauce of peer support is connection, where you can show me the part of you that you think is the worst, and I'm still going to show up for you.” As Marlo said in episode 4, we are more than our darkest moments. Standing with someone so they can get through those darkest moments to see their light again can often be the most transformative service we can give. 
3. “I think having peer support embedded in your system is a system that is ready to hold itself accountable.” And ““Having peer support embedded can keep people compassionate instead of complacent.” There are so many ways in which a system can be held accountable, so that first statement is worth reflecting on for a while. I chose to follow it with the second statement because I feel that we can always be reminded why we, the people that make up these systems, wanted to do this work in the first place. 

47:05-49:00 – Luke – Closing Credits

Join the conversation and connect with us!

• Visit our podcast page on our ICFW website to learn more about the experts you hear in this series.
• Subscribe, rate our show and leave feedback in the comments section.
• Sign up for our Strong Families, Thriving Children, Connected Communities initiative and our quarterly newsletter.
• Follow the Institute for Child and Family Well-being on Facebook, Instagram and LinkedIn.