Luke Waldo 00:04

Welcome to season 3 of Overloaded: Understanding Neglect, where we explore how we might change the conditions that overload families with stress, so that families can thrive and children grow up with a strong foundation built on positive childhood experiences. 

Hey everyone, this is Luke Waldo, your host for this podcast series and the Director of Program Design and Community Engagement for the Institute for Child and Family Well-being, our partnership between Children’s Wisconsin and the University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee’s Helen Bader School of Social Welfare. 

Luke Waldo 00:47

This season’s bonus episode was inspired by our collaboration with Children’s Home Society of America or CHSA and the upcoming Wicked Problems Institute national convening on November 13th and 14th. The Wicked Problems Institute will bring together CHSA’s state-based member organizations and a team of partners from their state including individuals with lived expertise, philanthropists, public agency leaders, researchers, elected officials, health care providers, community-based advocates and others committed to improving the lives of children and families. 

I have the great honor of opening Wicked with the powerful conversation you are about to hear with 7 lived experience changemakers from across the country. Their diverse lived experiences shed a bright light on what is weighing most heavily on them about families’ well-being right now, and how leaders should respond differently if they want to build a better future with families. Now on to the conversation.

We are living in a moment that demands both urgency and reflection. Families are experiencing rapid shifts in policy, resources, and daily life. The Wicked Problems Institute 2025 offers a rare space to pause, learn, and generate fresh thinking that leads to stability, connection, positive experiences, health, and well-being for families and their communities. 

As we welcome you to this year’s Wicked Problems Institute - The Future We Shape Together: Real Solutions for Families in Changing Times – let’s start our two days together by listening to what is weighing most heavily on caregivers and families and what is needed to lighten the overload. 

Welcome. I'm Luke Waldo, as we welcome all of you to Wicked Problems 2025 we wanted to ask the question of what is weighing most heavily on you. As a caregiver, as someone who's been impacted by the child welfare system, as somebody who's part of their community, and this is what we had to say.

Valerie Frost 02:46

My name is Valerie Frost. My favorite title is mom. I am based here in Kentucky, and I have lived experience with public assistance, child welfare and court systems. 

So what's weighing on me most heavily right now about family well-being is how out of reach it feels, and that's because of power who holds it and who is blocked from having any those with the most power over policies and programs, they tend to be the furthest from the realities that families live. Families and systems are becoming more and more disconnected. 

So I remember when my twins were in the NICU, how Medicaid covered their stay, and I'm grateful for that, but afterward, constant authorizations made caring for infants with developmental needs hard. During my second pregnancy, my childcare assistance was cut off because of a verification error, and I was charged for a denied appeal the same month I gave birth. I've had three CPS investigations that offered no support and only exasperated the situation I was found in. I know these systems because I am living them, but too often my voice, and voices like mine are the least heard or completely left out. Families are not failing, systems are.

Michael Huesca 04:09

Hello everyone and welcome. My name is Michael Huesca. I'm a birth father who has been impacted by the child welfare system, and I'm here elevating the voices of families and parents. 

What weighs heavily on me is really a collective of things. Right now, for black and brown folks that are in our country, it's a scary time. It is a time where children are experiencing the highest level of anxiety and trauma, whether they are going to see their parents, whether their parents are going to be harmed, whether they're going to be harmed, is such a fear for so many children today and for so many families. What worries me is this is another barrier for us giving help to families. Who's going to ask for help when they're fearing the very government that might be asking to offer that said help? I think that's a real big challenge. 

And additionally, it's been decades that we know fathers are important for families and children well-being yet we have yet been able to authentically engage those and so it's our hope, it's my hope, that we're able to have conversations about strategies that could be effective in solving some of these solutions.

Derreasha Jones 05:35

Hi, my name is Derreasha Jones. I am coming from the Children's Home Society of Florida, and today I identify with change makers and community advocates. 

It's weighing heavily on me that these issues are not new. It shows us that things are getting worse for our families. Historically, our families have been trying to build stability and systems that weren't even designed for them to thrive, and so they've climbed and climbed and climbed, and here they go to fall again. And instead of trying to build a net to save them, why were they falling in the first place? And so we have to look at history the way that it is, without erasing it, rewriting it or acting like it's not there. And so we all know that the cost of living keeps rising, but wages and resources haven't kept pace, and that creates a ripple effect on mental health, relationships and child development. 

Sonia Cohen 06:31

Hello.I am Sonia Marie Cohen, lived expert, consultant and Child and Family Well Being advocate as well as an impacted young person, not so young anymore by both the child welfare and justice system. 

You know what's weighing on me the most when I watch, oh, man, it's an accumulation of everything that families are being asked to hold. I think about families that I work alongside with every day I think about my family, my own story, which is often unburied, as I sit back and watch time after time harm be perpetuated against our young people and families. And I think about often what it means to grow up in systems that were supposed to protect us, to protect our families, to protect our young people, but instead fractured the very fabric of our beingness, our sense of safety, our sense of trust and our sense of belonging. 

It aches me to watch the harm continuing to see families, especially those mostly impacted by poverty and racism and generational trauma, still having to prove their worthiness of support and healing of human dignity and resources, quite frankly, that are essential to them surviving to their well-being. It's heartbreaking. What also saddens me is how little we're prioritizing healing and well-being at a time such as this, when families need it the most, the spaces that hold people together, the communities and resource centers that are always constantly there, the healing circles, the gathering hubs, the services, the resources that families and young people trust and rely on, truly rely on, that now they're at risk of losing funding. 

I you know, often think about how we make this commitment and do this work from a place of we want families to be well. We want families to be better, yet we're watching the very programs that make that possible, the support, the wellness, the healing possible. We're watching them struggle to survive. Healing cannot happen in scarcity. If we truly want families to heal, to stay strong, to feel safe, to feel together, to be together, we must invest in the people and the places that create that sense of belonging, safety and collective healing.

Titianna Goings 08:57

Hello, I'm Titianna Goings, located in Raleigh, North Carolina, and I am identifying with kinship caregivers. 

Economic and financial strains weigh most heavily on me regarding families’ well-being. In my opinion, work life balance is also essential to the well-being of families. With the rise in housing costs, childcare expenses and the price of groceries, that balance becomes interrupted. We must strengthen community support systems, advocate for family friendly workplace policies and promote financial security initiatives that help families meet their basic needs and maintain a healthy work life balance.

Shana King 09:36

My name is Ida’akube Xuba’ash Mia, Holy Owl Woman in Hidatsa, and my English given name is Shana King. I am a parent mentor at the ICWA Law Center in Minneapolis. I am somebody who aged out of foster care and then I became a parent who was involved in the system as well. I successfully reunified with my children. I am here to reach everybody who works in the child welfare system. 

What weighs on me most in this current times is watching an entire race of people's families be torn apart, and what's going to happen to those children in the future. I've seen it happen to my people, and I have, I'm a product of that. I can trace our historical trauma that happened to Indigenous people down my family tree, including me and my children. I think about the adoption era and the boarding school era and how people were just okay with that and how that has so impacted my people today, and now I'm watching that again. 

I also work in the Indigenous community, so I am dealing with families who are impacted by ICWA, and the generational and historical trauma that caused is hard to overcome, and now I'm watching it happen to an entire race of people based on their skin color, which includes my people too. And I just really hope that we bring some humanity back into our lives and into what we see every day that we can work with these families. We know the trauma that this causes on people due to what is going on with Black and Brown people currently. So we need to do better for our families today, because we know that we're going to have some trauma coming up in our future.

Dony Jean Charles  11:35

Hello, I'm Dony Jean Charles, Communications and Marketing Manager for Children's Home Society of Florida, and my lived experience is being a product of Community Partnership Schools. 

What's been weighing on me the most is capacity in terms of families, what they're dealing with on a daily basis, all the obstacles they encounter, and where they can counteract those obstacles with resources, support and community. How can you think of watering someone else's lawn when you still have to tend to yours?

Luke Waldo 12:15

So over the next day and a half, what are we going to do about it? Here's our call to action.

Titianna Goings 12:21

Families in crisis should have access to strong community resources such as food programs and affordable, safe childcare. Employers who promote family friendly workplaces play a key role in restoring work life balance for those in less flexible jobs, it's essential to set boundaries, prioritize meaningful tasks and practice self-care to maintain stability and well-being. Get moving. Advocate.

Valerie Frost 12:49

if we want a better future, leaders need to center lived experience. Lead with families, not just for them, and close the gap between intent and impact. Traditional leaders need to share power with humility. When proximity and lived experience guide leadership, when systems are built with families instead of around them, that's when they will truly serve.

Michael Huesca 13:14

What we need to do is put humanity back into human services. We need to meet families where they are, and that's not just a cliche that's really, truly showing up and supporting where they need the support, listening to what families need. We need to stop marginalizing and separating individuals and welcome community and collaborations together. We have solutions, but we need to be heard.

Derreasha Jones 13:47

We have to make sure that the communities that we are serving have a seat at the table. We can't just give them a service. We have to try to meet their specific needs. We want to make sure that there is representation at all levels of decision making. We also want to make sure that the decisions that we're making are not short term, but they're long term. We're not thinking about an individual, but we're thinking about their families and their children and the generations that come after that. We have to remember to treat our families with dignity, because they are still the leaders of their own lives.

Sonia Cohen 14:22

I think about how much courage it takes to center humanity and healing over hierarchy, to actually sit to listen, to value, to design the future of families with families so that healing is possible.

Shana King 14:38

We need to have come to this space with an open mind. And when we look at the children we're working with, the moms and the dads, we need to realize that they're human and that they need to heal from whatever has caused them to be in this space in the first place, and think outside of the box. Think of where that family comes from, what traditions they have. Think about adding culture into case plans so that families can truly heal and not come back into the system.

Dony Jean Charles 15:04

My call to action is to empathize to reflect, reflect to build, and build to cultivate true community.

Everyone 15:14

So let's step into our conversations at Wicked with open hearts, open ears, with open hands, ready to listen, learn and act together.

Luke Waldo 15:27

I want to thank each and every one of the seven changemakers who shared their lived experience with me and all of you today. May we be moved by what's weighing most heavily on them, and inspired and guided by their calls to action. 

Thank you for listening and for showing up. I hope you will join the conversation at Wicked and again soon as Season Four of Overloaded launches in 2026.

Today’s episode included the following speakers (in the order they appear):

Host: Luke Waldo

Experts:

• Kate Luster – Director of Human Services, Rock County Department of Human Services

:04-:44 – Kate Luster - “Co-design was very different in which the parents have truly influenced and driven what our priorities will be moving forward, how we will go about implementing. They have been a regular resource for us to really help share that power of making decisions about what should happen as we work to improve our system and to grow resources in the community.”

:55- - Luke Waldo – Opening, introduction to Kate Luster and Rock Families First, and welcome.

3:37-3:40 – Kate Luster – Thank you

3:41-4:01 – Luke Waldo – Why is Rock Families First needed today?

4:02-7:32 – Kate Luster – Rock Family First is a response to the disproportionality that Black families have experienced with the Child Protective Services in Rock County. It was also a response to the national shift within CPS to the Family First Prevention Services Act. Focusing on Black families in Beloit and how we can learn from them as to what works and what doesn’t allow us to scale up improved changes.

• Rock Families First
• Families First Prevention Services Act
• Alia

7:33-7:43 – Luke – Can you elaborate on the disparities in Rock County?

7:44-8:44 - Kate – Black families make up 22% of Child Protective Services involved families while they only make up 7% of the county’s population. 

8:45-9:08 – Luke – What did Rock Families First hope to change or accomplish? What were the key strategies that were employed to advance it?

9:09-16:23 – Kate – Promote child and family well-being through partnership. 

1. Increase satisfaction in engagement for Black families living in Beloit, 
2. Safely reduce the total number of out-of-home placements, and 
3. Eliminate racial disparities in CPS.  

A Community Cultivator is a partner from Beloit who has been a bridge to Black families in Beloit with lived experience with CPS. This has led to a co-design process with many families within our community. 

• The Idea Book
• The BeeHive

16:24-18:23 – Kate – This co-design process was very different as it was led by the community partners. They had influence and decision-making power from the beginning until now beyond the initial plan. 

• Human-Centered Design

18:24-18:59 - Luke – We have been talking a lot this season about authentic engagement with lived experience experts. Can you share more on how that relationship and process worked? 

19:00-31:31 - Kate – Co-design was central to this initiative, but we didn’t just jump into it. We first did a lot of preparation on our teams. We then worked to build trust with our community. We invested in the well-being of our staff and teams, and the trust in their leaders. We developed a two-year well-being process to ensure that leaders were responsive to staff needs. The culture changed, which led to a mindset shift that prepared us to be more responsive to our community’s needs and co-design. The system had not been designed to be family-centered. It was punitive, which put staff in a difficult position. Kate tells her story about her apology to families and the community. 

31:32-32:52 - Luke – It takes courage to do what you did. People come to do this work with good intentions as they want to help children and families. What did it take to implement Rock Families First?

32:53-43:47 – Kate – We have seen a significant drop in the number of families in out of home care in CPS. We have reallocated a lot of our funds to prevention and early intervention services. We have created a position that provides in-home safety supports. 

Parents and staff came together to co-design a new practice model. This has been translated into new standards and best practices for staff. Community engagement and communication have been developed through Parent Cafes. There was a strong balance between professionals with experience with developing communication plans and the lived experience understanding of what will connect with the community. 

Now we are in the phase of moving forward with accountability. We are partnering with prevention and early intervention organizations, so that they can work with families that may be overloaded but don’t need the intervention of CPS. 

• Family Support Program Services - Family Resource Navigator, Family Support and Preservation Specialist, In-Home Safety Supports
• Parent Cafes

43:48-4:03 - Luke – As a partner of ours with SFTCCC, it’s promising to hear the work that you are doing in the Workforce Innovation and Inclusion space. Can you expand on the workforce well-being work that you’ve done?

42:04-49:07– Kate – Culture change that empowers staff to say what they need. Caseload sizes were reduced. Provided education on the impacts of family separation, bias, systemic racism, and the opportunities to do and be better. They were given a safe space to process this and think differently.

Parents Supporting Parents program are part of the continuum of resources and supports.

Invest in our leadership development and strategy to support leaders to support staff.

• Parents Supporting Parents program

49:08-50:38 - Luke Waldo – This initiative has led to a significant and community-changing outcome that SFTCCC aspires to. What would you leave our audience with that you’ve learned from this movement?

50:39-54:58 - Kate – When we authentically engage with our community and believe in them, real change can happen. 

54:59-55:26 – Luke – Thank you.

55:27-55:28 – Kate – Thank you.

55:37-57:45 - 3 Key Takeaways 

1. “Build a trust and well-being culture with real intention.” As Kate shared, this culture took years to develop, and ultimately created a safe environment through supportive and responsive leaders and an empowered workforce who speaks up, asks for what they need, and has the capacity to share power and decision-making with the people they serve. 
2. “Center a new mindset of thinking about working with families differently, centering families.” This started, as Kate courageously shared, with acknowledging the harm that our systems have done to families. From there, we can move from being punitive to being partners who center families to build trust and begin healing through meaningful change, accountability and committed action. 
3. Write your Idea Book and Build your BeeHive. As Kate says, “[Co-design was very different in which the] Parents have truly influenced and driven what our priorities will be moving forward, how we will go about implementing. They have been a regular resource for us to really help share that power of making decisions about what should happen as we work to improve our system and to grow resources in the community.”

57:52- - Luke Waldo – Closing Credits

Join the conversation and connect with us!

• Visit our podcast page on our ICFW website to learn more about the experts you hear in this series.
• Subscribe, rate our show and leave feedback in the comments section.
• Sign up for our Strong Families, Thriving Children, Connected Communities initiative and our quarterly newsletter.
• Follow the Institute for Child and Family Well-being on Facebook, Instagram and LinkedIn.

Today’s episode included the following speakers (in the order they appear):

Host: Luke Waldo

Experts:

• Bryan Samuels – Chapin Hall

:07-:39 – Bryan Samuels - Is the goal that you’re trying to get engagement? Or is the goal you’re trying to get ownership? And when you think about ownership, then you have to think about going the extra mile.

:42-3:24 - Luke Waldo – Opening, introduction to Bryan Samuels and the Systems Transformation Through Community Leadership report.

3:25-10:15 - Bryan – Disrupting System Mindsets

• When there are power imbalances, you often don’t get meaningful change. 
• You also need to shift the mental models away from where systems and communities address negative issues and move to where positive things occur.
• Infrastructure and coordinated planning.
• Continuous Quality Improvement is also needed to check in to see if the process is working for everybody. 
• Establishing a common language can build momentum towards change.
• Community needs to have agency as to how resources are used. 
• Power-building may start with different levels of power, but it should aspire to share power and decision-making. 

10:16-19:15 – Bryan – Investing in Communities

• Marginalization has occurred throughout history due to race and racism and income inequality. 
• Investing in resources that will support those community partners who have been marginalized, so that they can participate. Childcare, food, compensation, as they likely worked a full day and are not being paid to participate like the professionals who are. 
• Systems need to actively seek out participants to ensure that the community’s diversity is fully represented at the table. Using surveys, taking polls, engaging in different ways to ensure full representation. 
• Take the time to build trust. 
• Leverage people’s unique strengths. 
• Pausing long enough to ensure that participants understand the systems that you are trying to transform. 
• Recognition that people need to be compensated for the work that they are contributing. 

19:16-28:47 - Bryan – Reimagine Community Engagement

• Engagement is more than a one-time commitment.
• Building relationships and ensuring that community residents understand what is being proposed and giving them the opportunity to set priorities.
• Creating a shared vision for the future.
• Community residents and community providers often have different power and experiences.
• Who does the community hold in high regard? Find them and bring them to the table.

28:48-39:18 - Bryan – Community Leadership

• Getting ownership means that the community sees the change as theirs. 
• Are you trying to get engagement or ownership?
• Creating a decision-making and governance structure helps create ownership. A ladder of opportunity acknowledges that not everyone comes to the table with the same experience or knowledge, so this allows for growth that makes them more capable than when they arrived. 
• Sometimes we rely too often on champions. You need to move beyond the people that will say the right thing and find the people that will defend the right thing. 
• Sharing in the budgeting process. Systems leaders often know what the budget is, but the community itself doesn’t. Maybe we have fewer meetings, so that we can feed people who are attending. 
• May need to pause throughout the process to leave the room and allow the community to be in the room with one another to determine if things are progressing towards ownership for them. 
• Tenant housing example. 

39:19-48:20 - Bryan – Embedding Community Leadership

• Creating a process and space that promotes long-term engagement for the community and ultimately ownership. Infrastructure promotes trust and engagement. 
• CQI mechanism is important to check in and validate with the community that things are going well. If they aren’t, then you make changes. 
• Create agreements that there will be open communication about what isn’t working. 
• Regularity is important so that people know what to expect. 

48:21-52:20 - Bryan – Use the podcast as inspiration to dive more deeply into the bulletins and build a strategy from both.

52:21-52:50 - Luke – This conversation has been both inspirational and instructive. Gratitude.

52:52-55:00 – Luke - 3 Key Takeaways 

1. Power Sharing is a Foundation for Equity
   “When communities, systems leaders, and providers come together, they start from unequal footing. Moving toward equity at the table requires intentional planning to share power from the very beginning.”
2. Moving from Storytelling to Engagement
   “Engagement isn’t a one-time checkbox; it’s a long-term relationship with a commitment to removing barriers. It’s not just about inviting people to the table—it’s about ensuring they have the time, resources, and support to stay there and contribute fully. Communities need time to process, prioritize, and incubate ideas, creating shared visions that reflect their lived experiences and expertise.”
3. Moving from Engagement to Ownership “Ownership happens when the community sees the strategy not as a system-led initiative but as a reflection of their values, their priorities, and their contributions. It’s a process that builds commitment and sustainability.” As system professionals, we can facilitate and empower that ownership by providing clear and predictable processes for those we serve. Through structure like regular meetings, transparent decision-making, and clear roles, we create a foundation for trust and meaningful participation.

55:05-56:53 - Closing Credits

Join the conversation and connect with us!

• Visit our podcast page on our ICFW website to learn more about the experts you hear in this series.
• Subscribe, rate our show and leave feedback in the comments section.
• Sign up for our Strong Families, Thriving Children, Connected Communities initiative and our quarterly newsletter.
• Follow the Institute for Child and Family Well-being on Facebook, Instagram and LinkedIn.

Today’s episode included the following speakers (in the order they appear):

Host: Luke Waldo

Experts:

• Bryan Samuels – Chapin Hall

:11-:33 - Bryan Samuels - I think at the end of the day, there are lots of folks that want change. There aren't a ton of folks that have realized that change. And for that, it often requires some of us to bring forward the best thinking so that people can take advantage of experiences that others have had, so that it might inspire and direct their efforts.

:42-4:55 – Luke Waldo – Introduction to Systems Transformation Through Community Leadership report, Bryan Samuels’ bio, and welcome.

Why is systems transformation needed today in the US? 

• Systems Transformation Through Community Leadership – Chapin Hall

4:56-6:33 - Bryan – How can we make services more effective and more equitable? How can systems change to meet the needs of diverse populations?

Chapin Hall was motivated out of a sense that there was a window of opportunity to contribute to the growth and change and direction for the country, and to bring some unique insight into how systems go about changing themselves in order to respond to the needs of a diverse population of families that they serve. 

6:34-7:01 – Luke – Can you expand on why Chapin Hall felt that our systems weren’t meeting the diverse needs of our children, families and communities?

7:02-10:54 – Bryan – How do systems take a limited amount of resource and share them equitably? Many of our most marginalized communities have received less services and resources. Over 50% of Black children are investigated by CPS. Families living in poverty are disproportionately investigated by CPS. 

Chapin Hall believes that we are living a moment where many want change, so we are providing them with some of the best thinking and tools from across the country to enact that change.

10:55-11:18 – Luke – What does Chapin Hall hope to change or accomplish with the Systems Transformation blueprint? What are some of the key components of the blueprint?

11:19-13:30 – Bryan – Connect the dots between what people were proposing and what we know works. And so we wanted to look at these questions: 

Does community engagement and engaging folks with lived experience produce better results? 

Does systems change happen when the only people making the change happen are people leading the system right? 

Do folks have the skills they need to be successful in the long term? 

Do we have the right resources at the table to enable real, meaningful long-term change to occur? 

There were lots of lessons learned. So even in failure, there were things that one could conclude about what you would do better the next time.

13:31-13:51 – Luke – Can you expand on those lessons learned?

13:52-17:51 - Bryan – Lessons learned.

1. Top-down approaches to systems change rarely work. 
2. Systems change takes time. 
3. Community engagement requires greater commitment. 
4. Skill-building for community engagement is needed. 
5. Shared leadership, decision-making and power are essential to larger change processes. 

17:52-18:47 – Luke – Can you outline those 5 key strategies for us and how you came to them?

18:48-20:48 - Bryan – Conducted focus groups and learned from system leaders to inform this process along with reviewing the research. There are 5 principles.

• Disrupt System Mindsets
• Invest in Community
• Reimagine Community Engagement
• Transform Systems with Community in the Lead
• Embed Community Leadership 

20:49-21:10 - Luke – Gratitude.

21:11-23:33 - Bryan – “Opportunity to speak to these issues are near and dear to me.” Bryan’s experience that speaks to why this work is so important to him. 

23:34-27:03 – Luke – 3 Key Takeaways 

1. “Even in failure, there were things that one could conclude about what you would do better the next time.” This is such an important reminder that we are doomed to repeat our failures if we fail to make the time to learn from them the first time.
2. “If you want to move a system, you’ve got to have people at every level of that system sharing in the goals and objectives, and committed to achieving the change that one might aspire to. The same is true for community, who should have a role in leadership and decision-making.”
3. “There are lots of folks who want change, there are not a lot of folks who have realized that change, and for that it requires some of us to bring about the best thinking so that people can take advantage of experiences that others have had so that it may inspire and direct their efforts.” May this episode and next week’s deep dive into Chapin Hall’s best thinking serve as inspiration and direction for all of us.

Closing Credits

Today’s episode included the following speakers (in the order they appear):

Host: Luke Waldo

Experts:

• Samantha Copus – Jefferson County Parents Supporting Parents

:04–:33 – Samantha Copus – “That's the main piece. That's the secret sauce of peer support. Is connection, is that you can show me the part of you that you think is the worst, and I'm still going to show up and tell you, like, Oh, that's okay. How do we move forward? How do you want to move forward? Because nothing you've done changes what I think you're worth, and I'm still going to show up and support you. And I think that's when you start breaking down those barriers and giving these parents, you know, something they couldn't get anywhere else.”

:41-3:29 – Luke – Opening, Samantha’s Bio, and Opening

The history of peer support goes back long before we had formal systems like child protection or mental health. 

It wasn’t until fairly recently that these peer support and mentor models were translated to child welfare. So I wanted to learn more about the model that is being implemented in Wisconsin.

Parents Supporting Parents is a peer support program designed in Iowa for parents involved in the Child Protection System that is now implemented here in a handful of counties across Wisconsin. 

Samantha Copus is a mother to two children and identifies as a person in long term recovery. Samantha has a variety of lived experiences ranging from mental health, substance use disorders, domestic violence and being a mother who had a child in the child welfare system, all which qualify her now to serve as a parent partner in Jefferson County as part of the Parents Supporting Parents program. 

3:29-3:37 – Samantha – Thank you.

3:38-4:01 - Luke – Why are peer support programs such as Parents Supporting Parents needed today? 

4:02-5:02 – Samantha – What we were doing without it wasn’t working. Families weren’t feeling heard, weren’t feeling connected. 

“You wouldn’t hire a tour guide that’s never been to that destination.”

5:03-6:00 – Luke – I’d like to dive deeper into the ‘why’ behind one of today’s focus areas: social connectedness. Why do you think peer support—and your role as a parent partner in the Parents Supporting Parents program—is so critical to improving social connectedness for the caregivers and parents you serve?"

6:01-9:07 – Samantha – Parenting alone can be isolating. Peer support allows for non-judgmental showing up and walking the journey with the parent. 

“It’s the child welfare system, not the parent welfare system. Who’s going to be looking after these parents who are looking out for their children?”

Social connection is the secret sauce that breaks down barriers and allows the parent to share their darkest moments and still know that that person will keep showing up.

9:08-10:04 – Luke – This perspective helps explain why there is growing momentum behind the incorporation of lived experience into our systems and decision-making. It’s difficult to teach the emotional experience of being on the other side of child welfare. 

It is important to take that first step of acknowledging that lived experience should be a part of our systems. It’s another to scale it so that it can have a greater impact. 

So what does Parenting Supporting Parents do? And what does it hope to accomplish or change in the child welfare system and for parents and caregivers?

10:05-13:20 – Samantha – Parents Supporting Parents (PSP) is an evidence-based program out of Iowa that is voluntary for parents involved in the child welfare system. The program is growing across the state – Rock, Milwaukee, Eau Claire, Jefferson. 

We are also looking at it moving further upstream so that we can work with families to prevent child welfare involvement. Rock County hired two parents who previously worked with a PSP partner.

13:21-14:21 - Luke – It can be difficult to scale promising models, so it is promising to hear that Parents Supporting Parents is scaling across the state and within counties. What are some of the key components of your role? How do they impact the parents that you serve? 

14:22-19:09 - Samantha – Parent Partners support parents at court, by transporting them to services, processing through what they need during those car rides or on the phone, referring to services. Sharing space. Providing another voice of lived experience during meetings with professionals. 

Participate in trainings on foster care placements to provide additional perspective. Peer support in a system shows that we are seeking alignment to find solutions for families.

“I think having peer support embedded in your system is a system that is ready to hold itself accountable.”

19:10-20:54 – Luke – The magic happening during those drives - to appointments or court—when the most honest conversations often take place. It’s something that’s hard to evaluate or formalize or even train staff on in a program, but as you said, these moments are critical for connection and building trust, particularly for people who’ve been isolated by challenges like domestic violence or substance use.

Given how demanding this work can be—requiring, for example, you to revisit some of your darkest moments—how important is it for you to have other parent partners to confide in or lean on when you’re feeling overloaded?"

20:55-24:35 - Samantha – They are the supports I didn’t know that I needed. Parent Partners work closely together. 

24:36-25:03 - Luke – Where do you see the greatest impact in your 18 months, almost two years in this role?

25:04-30:27 – Samantha – At the macro-level, it’s been great seeing more and more people interested in this work. At the micro-level, the change that can happen when there’s one healthy, supportive person in someone’s life. “I have had a client tell me that they told me something that they’ve never told anyone before.”

Transformation can happen when people feel connected and believed in. Child welfare workers value her perspective and support of the parent. 

“The single most frustrating thing is screaming and feeling like no one can hear you.”

“Having peer support embedded can keep people compassionate instead of complacent.” 

30:28-33:09 - Luke – Social isolation is a growing crisis. The U.S. Surgeon General’s 2023 report on social isolation and loneliness highlighted this epidemic, and more recently, a report on parents’ mental health revealed that nearly half of all parents feel overwhelmed by stress most days. It’s sobering but underscores the importance of building social connectedness.

• Our Epidemic of Loneliness and Social Isolation - US Surgeon General
• Raj Chetty

With that in mind, I’d love for you to reflect on how your role as a parent partner aligns with our four critical pathways, which are:

1. Social Connectedness;
2. Economic Stability;
3. Community Collaborationwhere we hope to improve coordination among systems and services to better serve families. And finally, 
4. Workforce Inclusion and Innovation, which looks at how we might diversify the workforce to reflect those being served and also address challenges like burnout.

Feel free to take this in any direction that you’d like.

33:10-38:02 - Samantha – PSP is evidence-based which has shown to lower reentry rates for those that have had a Parent Partner. Parent Partners assist a lot with Economic Stability by creating bridges to housing and food stability, access to benefits and job opportunities. Lived Experience partners stand between theory and reality. 

$2000 prescription metaphor. In theory it works, in practice the patient can’t afford it. 

Mandated reporting is mandated supporting in the PSP world. 

38:03-39:42 - Luke - How might communities implement a role like parent partners or a program like Parents Supporting Parents?

For those listening who are inspired by this model, what do you believe are the critical conditions for implementing and scaling it?

Beyond that, what other conditions, practices, or opportunities do you think are essential to successfully implement and scale this model? And how do we ensure there are enough parent partners and enough support for you to meet the demand within each community?"

39:43-43:20 - Samantha – Contact Department of Children and Families. This work requires authenticity. Look around your community as there are likely lived experience helpers already doing the work. Make it an equitable relationship with your peers. 

• Department of Children and Families

43:21-44:32 - Luke – This conversation has been both inspirational and instructive. It challenges our mental models and hopefully moves us to consider the importance of equity and the role that lived experience brings to it. Gratitude.

44:33-44:52 - Samantha – Thank you! 

44:53-45:07 – Luke – Thank you, Samantha!

45:12-46:53 - Luke – 3 Key Takeaways 

1. “You wouldn’t hire a tour guide that’s never been to that destination.” As Samantha goes on to say, this doesn’t take away from the knowledge, expertise, and dedication of system staff. Rather, it’s a powerful statement about the deep personal experience and understanding of the system from a parent who has been through it that can provide a complementary perspective to paint a more complete picture.
2. “The secret sauce of peer support is connection, where you can show me the part of you that you think is the worst, and I'm still going to show up for you.” As Marlo said in episode 4, we are more than our darkest moments. Standing with someone so they can get through those darkest moments to see their light again can often be the most transformative service we can give. 
3. “I think having peer support embedded in your system is a system that is ready to hold itself accountable.” And ““Having peer support embedded can keep people compassionate instead of complacent.” There are so many ways in which a system can be held accountable, so that first statement is worth reflecting on for a while. I chose to follow it with the second statement because I feel that we can always be reminded why we, the people that make up these systems, wanted to do this work in the first place. 

47:05-49:00 – Luke – Closing Credits

Join the conversation and connect with us!

• Visit our podcast page on our ICFW website to learn more about the experts you hear in this series.
• Subscribe, rate our show and leave feedback in the comments section.
• Sign up for our Strong Families, Thriving Children, Connected Communities initiative and our quarterly newsletter.
• Follow the Institute for Child and Family Well-being on Facebook, Instagram and LinkedIn.

Today’s episode included the following speakers (in the order they appear):

Host: Luke Waldo

Experts:

• CJ Suitt – MC for Wicked Problems Institute Convening
• Sixto Cancel - Think of Us
• Anthony Barrows – Network of Intersectional Professionals
• Bryn Fortune - Fortune Consulting & Nurture Connection Family Network Collaborative

:06-:18 - Opening Clip – Anthony Barrows -– “And for all of you who are really interested in thinking about ‘how do we bring lived experience into our work, my guess is that we are probably already there, and maybe not raising our hands to self-disclose for lots of reasons.”

00:22-2:59 – Luke Waldo – Opening and Introduction to Wicked Problems Institute national convening and the episode’s three speakers.

2:59- CJ Suitt – Introduction of Sixto Cancel and Think of Us.

3:30-25:20 – Sixto Cancel – Opening acknowledgement of the audience and the work being done to elevate lived experience.

• Sixto Cancel’s Slide Deck – Wicked Problems Institute convening

Sixto shares why he started Think of Us as a college student when he realized that he wanted young people to have more control over their child welfare cases than he did as a foster youth who could have lived with family members. 

What Think of Us does. Direct practice through Resource Navigators. Research.

Proximate Policy. Sixto provides a powerful example of how Think of Us and young people with lived expertise influenced policy change around kinship care.

He talks about how they reimagined their role and the process away from just telling their stories and providing recommendations to becoming part of the prioritization and decision-making processes.

• National Convening on Kinship Care – Children’s Bureau

What does it mean to be an Ambassador?

Going beyond traditional diversity. 

How is it that you take your lens while also connecting with the young people that are living it today?

Great story about how the Ambassador’s work. Partnered with an agency, Unicorn Solutions, and asked “What can this federal agency do? And what can it not do?” 

• Unicorn Solutions

You have to have resource navigation for the ambassadors.

Crowdsourcing. Surveyed thousands of people, themed the responses, created long- and short-form documents sharing the themes, and then compared with Congressional Coalition on Adoption Institute for Foster Club and other leaders’ crowdsourcing and research. “This kind of work matters and will pay off…” 

• Congressional Coalition on Adoption Institute
• Foster Club

All this prep work allows for the Ambassadors to identify policy and strategy priorities based on what is possible.

Solid process description starting with game night, relationship building, then trust building. 

Sixto finishes with a Michelle Alexander quote that is powerful about family separation. 

Follows it with Bryan Stevenson and the importance of proximity. “How do we integrate rather than engage?”

Goal of Think of Us is to serve as an R&D center that shares its lessons learned to be scaled. 

25:21-25:31 – Takkeem Morgan - “What would you like to see replicated?” 

25:32-27:55 - Sixto - Integration instead of engagement.

27:56-28:15 - Luke – Introduction of Anthony Barrows.

28:16-28:28 - CJ asks about Intersectional Professionals. 

28:29-53:00– Anthony Barrows - How the world experiences us based on our identities can shape how we engage with the world. 

• Anthony Barrow’s Slide Deck – Wicked Problems Institute convening
• Who are Intersectional Professionals? - Anthony Barrows 

Anthony’s introduction to himself and his work.

“I’ve been on the inside of these systems. I’ve seen how they can positively transform people’s lives when they work and chew up and spit out people when they don’t work.”

How do we make key systems deliver better for individuals?

Case Study - Strong example of the disconnect between the content experts from the context experts in San Francisco dropout study. Interesting content regarding social connectedness.

• Project Evident
• Ideas42

We asked the people closest to the problem. They identified different reasons for their academic challenges compared to the professionals’ reasons.

How is Lived Experience used in our work today? Who has control of the outcomes? 

• Organizationally-Bound
• Research-Driven
• Design-Focused
• Advocacy-Oriented

Anthony is going to give a different view on how Lived Experience can be used. He provides the Venn diagram of the Intersectional Professional. 

• People with lived experience of a system
• People doing work, research or advocacy in a system
• People with professional and/or academic training relevant to a system

Why does it matter? “I believe that intersectional professionals should be leading systems change. As dual experts, insiders with outsider experience.”

“We are probably already in your organization, but may not be raising our hands to let you know.”

Why did we decide to do this work? “This work can be isolating… so well-being is very important.” Five values that guide the work.

• Liberation
• Autonomy
• Creativity
• Excellence
• Solidarity

Summarizing his paper, The Experts by Experience.

• The Experts by Experience

Process.

Three Takeaways.

Best practices. 

How to implement this model. 

5 Integration Takeaways.

• Community knowledge must be treated as its own form of valuable expertise 
• Effective collaboration requires intentional investment of resources 
• Organizational leadership is a prerequisite for successful collaboration 
• People engaged in design should represent intra-community diversity 
• Create infrastructure and explicit roles that enable meaningful power-sharing

The Peer Health Exchange case study.

• Peer Health Exchange

53:01-53:25 - Luke - How might we more effectively support those folks, especially early in that kind of process or transition? 

53:26-54:56 - Anthony - Send them to the Network of Intersectional Professionals. Build supportive cohorts of more intersectional professionals.

54:57-55:17 - Luke – Introduction of Bryn Fortune.

55:18-56:09 - CJ – Introduction to Bryn.

56:10-1:11:38 – Bryn Fortune – Lived experience as a mother of a child with special needs who had 85 surgeries and grew up 40 years ago inside a Children’s Hospital in Detroit. While she had privilege, many of the people she met there did not, so she used her lived experience and what she saw others experience to advocate for change with the hospital leadership. 

• Bryn Fortune’s Slide Deck – Wicked Problems Institute convening

“Six degrees of separation of privilege” speaks to how lived experience brings a needed perspective that system leaders often don’t get to understand gaps.

Working in Alaska currently because the community has the highest child welfare referral rate in the country from their Head Start and early childhood programs.

How this model was developed. 

• Sherry Arnstein
• A Ladder of Citizen Participation – Sherry Arnstein
• Spectrum of Community Engagement to Ownership – Facilitating Power - Rosa Gonzalez 
• Who are Intersectional Professionals? - Anthony Barrows 

A flavor of the What the model does. 

Redesigning structures. 

Pregnancy to 1000 days. 

Working with 6 diverse populations and regions in the country to learn from. 

Identifying Intersectional Professionals who were working with the distinct populations.

Bryn’s description of her program, how it was informed, and how it was implemented.

• Reach Out and Read
• Living Room Language

“What we learned about equity is that 4 out of the 6 communities didn’t know what it meant.”

Bryn’s comments about relationships and the value of Parent Partners was powerful as she states that “there is a lot of mistrust with our systems for many good reasons”.

Steering Committee made up of Lived Experience experts that are now working with Harvard researchers.

Steering Committee members bring their own Lived Experience, and they also represent their communities in a way that they are speaking to what would help the collective behind them.

Historically, well-intentioned professionals have often treated this work tokenistically. 

“This is all very adaptable…” Lived experience changes over time and we need to honor those changes.

1:11:39-1:13:42 - Luke – 3 Key Takeaways

1. Diversity matters. As Sixto and Bryn both shared from their work, racial, gender, sexual orientation, and age diversity is critical to consider when working with lived experience partners. Equally important is their diversity of experience as someone who has been separated from their parents will have a very different experience with child welfare than a foster parent, even if they have worked with the same system or workers. 
2. Any one of those experiences can’t encapsulate the 360 degree life that we’ve lived. As Anthony shared, someone who has experience in the child welfare system is not defined by that experience, certainly not alone. Each person has a rich history, yes, often informed by their experiences with systems like child welfare, public schools and housing, and also by their experiences with joy, family, and triumph. Let’s honor and learn from all those experiences, from the whole person that sits before us. 
3. So, how should we bring lived experience into our work? I share Anthony’s guess that Intersectional Professionals are already there, but may not be raising their hands to self-disclose for lots of reasons. So how might we develop the culture and community within our organizations to support and empower those with lived experience much like the Network of Intersectional Professionals so that they may bring their whole selves safely and confidently into their work? How might we invest in lived experience through intentional processes, roles, and support systems like the Family Network Collaborative model and its Steering Committee or the Ambassador model that Sixto described? How might we move away from the transactional approaches of yesterday and towards the foundation, capacity and equity-building approaches that our experts shared today?

1:14:00-1:15:53 - Luke – Closing Credits

Join the conversation and connect with us!

• Visit our podcast page on our ICFW website to learn more about the experts you hear in this series.
• Subscribe, rate our show and leave feedback in the comments section.
• Sign up for our Strong Families, Thriving Children, Connected Communities initiative and our quarterly newsletter.
• Follow the Institute for Child and Family Well-being on Facebook, Instagram and LinkedIn.

Today’s episode included the following speakers (in the order they appear):

Host: Luke Waldo

Experts:

• Marlo Nash – Children’s Home Society of America

:00-:15 – Marlo Nash - “It’s really important to understand that the information we understand through people’s experiences is knowledge that can be used to change systems, to make practices and policies better.” 

:22–3:33 – Luke Waldo – Opening, Marlo’s Bio, and Welcome

Lived experience, lived expertise, context experts… For the past many years, we have seen a movement towards including or elevating or integrating the voice of lived experience into our work. But what does that really mean? What does that mean for the person that has lived through the child welfare system? What does that mean for the people working in the system? What are we trying to accomplish or change, and how might we do this better? 

If you have considered any of these questions or find yourself at a loss as to what the answers might or should be, then you’re in the right place. Over the next three episodes, we will be exploring these questions, many lessons learned as our guests worked through these questions, and the strategies designed and implemented by people with lived experience who, today, are leading others with lived experience. 

Today’s episode, along with next week’s, will share what was learned during this year’s Wicked Problems Institute national convening titled “Unlocking the Power of Lived Experience through True Collaboration,” hosted by Children’s Home Society of America or CHSA and the Jordan Institute for Families at the University of North Carolina School of Social Work.

Today you will hear from Marlo Nash, managing director of CHSA, who led the planning and execution of the convening. 

• Wicked Problems Institute 2024
• Jordan Institute for Families

3:34-3:57 – Marlo Nash – As the podcast’s biggest fan, it’s a pleasure being here.

3:58-4:45 – Luke – Why do we need to give more attention and action to integrating lived expertise into our systems and organizations?

4:46-8:01 – Marlo – Why we need to create the answers by providing safe spaces to learn. Lived experience is knowledge that informs how we can improve systems, practices and policies. 

Overarching theme of Building Equitable Pathways to Child and Family Well-being, and this year the theme was Unlocking the Power of Lived Experience through True Collaboration. 

“How do we do this for real, for real.” 

8:02-8:37 – Luke – Recognizing Marlo and CHSA for pulling off an inspiring virtual Wicked event. What are objectives and aspirations of Wicked? What does it hope to change?

8:38-12:40 – Marlo – CHSA’s mission and vision, and how Wicked supports this. Our systems and organizations have historically underappreciated the contributions of lived experience partners. Six conditions of systems change. Dig deeper in practice around integrating lived experience into our work.

The current transactional state of Lived Experience in our systems practices.

People with lived experience are willing to share their stories, often traumatic, but also their expertise to make changes that will improve outcomes for children and families now and for future generations.

• Six Conditions of Systems Change - FSG

12:41-13:45 - Luke – It’s important to acknowledge that we haven’t done this right or even caused harm. What is powerful about CHSA and Wicked is that we can acknowledge these challenges together across states and organizations.

13:46-14:08 - Marlo – Co-creating with lived experts is exciting, but can also retraumatize.

14:09-14:22 – Luke – What happened at Wicked this year?

14:23-23:38 - Marlo – Wicked is the event in which our 23 state members bring a team of public and private partners, funders, lived experience partners, so that we can hear our unique perspectives from one another.

Overview of CHSA, Wicked and the value of sharing unique perspectives from different sectors and roles.

Overview of the format of the day and introduces our 3 plenary speakers and their expertise and focus.

• Bryn Fortune - Nurture Connection Family Network Collaborative
• Sixto Cancel – Think of Us
• Anthony Barrows – Network of Intersectional Professionals

Synthesizers and their roles.

Themes that came up throughout the day:

Power imbalance. Put people and how they are feeling at the center. See empathetically. Move from storytelling and consultation to prioritization of informed-decision making. House metaphor and paint colors and curtains. Listen deeply even when it’s hard to hear. Relationships and community are the heart of doing this work.

23:39-24:33 - Luke – How might we implement these lessons learned into our practice, organizations, and systems?

24:34-26:05 - Marlo – Wicked has a graphic illustrator who captures the themes throughout the day. We encourage you to use it for ideas and inspiration. 

• Graphic Illustration – Wicked Problems Institute 2024
• A Visual Approach – Graphic Illustrators

26:06-26:45 - Luke – How do you see CHSA’s work and this year’s Wicked aligning with our SFTCCC Critical Pathways?

• Strong Families, Thriving Children, Connected Communities Critical Pathways

26:46-34:26 - Marlo – Engaging with Lived Experts requires that we center social connectedness. People are made up of lots of different parts, and we often see the worst parts of people as they are experiencing the darkest moments of their lives when they come to child welfare, for example. We must recognize that they are a whole person and they have many strong parts that we aren’t seeing right now. Their social connectedness and belonging are critical in understanding their whole self.

Workforce Inclusion and Innovation aligns well with the concept of Intersectional Professionals. Everyone wants appropriate boundaries to be set so that they can feel safe in their work. Everyone wants the support and resources needed to be their best self at work. How do we create those conditions that will make our workplaces positive spaces where they can be their whole selves?

Lived experience can illuminate what we really need to hear.

34:27-35:26 - Luke – I have seen how effective advocacy with policymakers by showing the data and research that is also supported by the lived experience of patients can be. Our mental models often allow us to have greater empathy for a family who has a child with cancer than a family who is involved in the child welfare system because of poverty. 

35:27-38:04 - Marlo – “Listen deeply even when it’s hard to hear.” People with Lived Experience shouldn’t be paraded in front of policymakers, but rather put in a position much like an Ambassador – see Sixto next week – where they are an engaged part of the process and impact.

38:05-38:49 - Luke – How might we implement some of these strategies to advance the vision of Wicked and CHSA?

38:50-48:53 - Marlo – Encourages listeners to check out the Show Notes and the graphic illustration. Engage with partners with Lived Experience and Wicked participants to deepen knowledge and strategies around how to integrate lived experience into your work. 

Pairing lived experience with research and science. Dean Ramona talked about lived experience as “a way of knowing”. Research Agenda on the 21st Century Child and Family Well-being. CHSA is a network of Scholar Practitioners who seek to confront the Wicked Problems in our systems. 

What policies – both legislative and organizational – need to be changed? 

We ideate so that we can work backwards from that big vision. Increasing authentic engagement with people with lived experience to make decisions together. 

“Marrying data, science, service, research, and advocacy with humanity and equity.”

Examining mental models around how we engage with people with lived experience. What mental models exist in our community?

Wicked is not a day of learning, but a medium to stay in community all year long. 

• The National Research Agenda for a 21st Century Child and Family Well-Being System
• Unsticking Stuck Mental Models – Collective Impact Forum

48:54-51:27 - Luke – My hope is that Wicked and this podcast will have ripple effects on our listeners. Wicked inspired me to build new relationships with partners including partners in New Jersey and Delaware to learn from one another and scale our work. Thank you for your partnership and vision.

51:28-53:30 - Marlo – Thank you for your work on this podcast that has challenged us to think about our mental models. 

53:31-54:46 – Luke – 3 Key Takeaways 

1. We need to move away from transactional relationships where people with lived experience are asked to share their darkest moments or to briefly consult after most decisions have already been made, and towards building authentic relationships that bring the whole person into decision making from the foundation to the curtains.
2. Listen deeply even when it’s hard to hear. Humility and the ability to acknowledge the harm that our systems have caused are at the heart of building trust and learning how to do better through partnership with families.
3. How might we create the conditions within our workspaces where intersectional professionals and community partners with lived experience can be their whole selves? Marlo asked this important question today. Come back next week to hear Anthony Barrows, Sixto Cancel, and Bryn Fortune answer it.

54:58-56:52 – Luke – Closing Credits

Join the conversation and connect with us!

• Visit our podcast page on our ICFW website to learn more about the experts you hear in this series.
• Subscribe, rate our show and leave feedback in the comments section.
• Sign up for our Strong Families, Thriving Children, Connected Communities initiative and our quarterly newsletter.
• Follow the Institute for Child and Family Well-being on Facebook, Instagram and LinkedIn.
• Email Luke Waldo at [email protected] to share how you are changing the conditions so that children and families can thrive.

Today’s episode included the following speakers (in the order they appear):

Host: Luke Waldo

Experts:

• Allison Thompson – Center for Guaranteed Income Research
• Blake Roberts Crall – Madison Forward Fund

 :00-:09 - Allison Thompson – “So there’s absolutely a way to address child poverty at the national level. It’s about the will, right?” 

:17–5:36 – Luke Waldo – Opening, Bios, and Welcome

In the first half of last century, American children and families faced a crisis. Invisible threats paralyzed society as viruses such as polio paralyzed children, claimed lives, and left communities in despair as they searched for solutions. In response, widespread quarantine shut down schools and public places to prevent the disease from spreading; and iron lungs were used to treat people already impacted by severe respiratory paralysis. But then came a groundbreaking prevention strategy through vaccines, massive public health campaigns, and the mobilization of resources to protect every community and get people back to living their lives without fear. Vaccination efforts eradicated polio from the United States 50 years ago and drastically reduced the burden of other deadly diseases, saving millions of lives, restoring hope for the future, and creating a blueprint for how bold prevention measures can transform society.

Today, children and families face another crisis. In 2022, over 7 million reports of alleged child abuse or neglect were made to Child Protective Services. 3 million families were subsequently investigated, and around 85% of them were living at or below 200% of the federal poverty line. Ultimately, of those 7 million reports, 550,000 were substantiated for maltreatment, or somewhere around 1 of every 10. 

How might we apply a similar public health approach that was used to address our polio crisis to address this crisis where too many families are overloaded by stress and vulnerable to child neglect, CPS investigations, and family separation? As we heard last episode from Jennifer Jones, Prevent Child Abuse America has a bold vision for what this could look like: an aligned and comprehensive primary prevention ecosystem that would empower all children and families to live a purposeful and happy life with hope for the future. One of its core aspirations is promoting economic stability, so that all families have the quality housing, childcare, and healthcare that we all need to thrive. 

In this episode, we’ll explore how guaranteed income programs and other economic supports that alleviate financial stress might help us move further upstream as an important part of that prevention ecosystem. Over the past six months, I have met many leaders of guaranteed income programs across the country. This journey began when the Bridge Project arrived here in Milwaukee to provide unconditional cash assistance to 100 low-income, pregnant mothers in Milwaukee for the next three years. Today, you will hear my conversation with two of these leaders who I’ve learned from on this journey, Blake Roberts Crall and Dr. Allison Thompson, as we explore the potential of guaranteed income programs as part of this primary prevention ecosystem. 

5:37-5:46 – Blake Roberts Crall and Allison Thompson – Thank you for having us.

5:47-6:03 – Luke Waldo – Why are guaranteed income or direct cash transfer programs needed today?

6:04-7:47 – Blake Roberts Crall – “And I really believe that our social safety net in this country plays a huge, huge role in helping to ensure financial security for our families and their well-being. So that's a really important part of our social infrastructure that we need, and it does a lot for families um and for children. And at the same time, um there's still so much more to do because there are families that are still struggling. We know that people are not able to make ends meet. 

And I think that there's an opportunity to look at our social safety net and figure out ways that we can make it better, make it more accessible, more inclusive, and provide more resources to families. um It seems pretty crazy to me that you can be working in this country full time or working more than full time and still not be able to pay all of your bills and still to be struggling financially. The term working poor, we hear that a lot. That's literally people are working, but still under that poverty line. So for me, there's a lot of opportunity to be doing something different and really to think about um how can we build systems of care and well-being for everyone. And I think guaranteed income or basic income is one possible tool that we can add in our toolbox.”

• What is Guaranteed Income? – Madison Forward Fund

7:48-7:50 – Luke – Same question to Allison.

7:51-10:41 - Allison Thompson - One in eight Americans live in poverty. And even with a full-time job, most families working minimum wage jobs still can't meet their basic needs. In fact, across many US cities, a parent of two children making the minimum wage would need to work between two to four minimum wage jobs just to make ends meet without benefits. And even with benefits, a parent working a full-time minimum wage job with two children typically experiences a $3,000 to $5,000 gap each month between their basic cost of living and their income and benefits.

To make matters worse, nearly half of all families with annual incomes of less than $25,000 a year also experience pretty significant income volatility, which means that their income each month is prone to both rapid and unpredictable change.

This might be because families are working hourly-waged jobs or doing gig work with unpredictable hours, or it could be that their jobs do not provide paid time off, leading to decreased income when parents' children get sick. But this income volatility puts families in really tough positions. Each month, families are often forced to make hard decisions to survive, decisions about paying utility bills or purchasing more costly, healthy foods. paying co-pays for their own medication versus paying their rent. And the bottom line is that neither the labor market nor the social safety net in the US is sufficient to keep families out of poverty. More is needed. 

Increasingly, we also know that economic and material hardship are significant predictors of child welfare involvement. This shows up as neglect often in the child welfare system. penalizing families for not having the means or resources necessary to make up for these market failures or government shortcomings. This type of neglect suggests that addressing inadequate economic resources should be one of the core set of tools for families when aiming to prevent child welfare involvement and out-of-home placement. So guaranteed income has emerged as an evidence-informed strategy to alleviate some of the burden that families bear as a result of the market failures and safety net shortcomings.”

Guaranteed income definition.

10:42-10:49 – Luke – Blake, what is the Madison Forward Fund and what does it hope to change or accomplish?

10:50-15:56 – Blake Roberts Crall – The Madison Forward Fund is a research program that piloted the impacts of guaranteed income on the lives of low-income people. 

• Madison Forward Fund
• Mayors for a Guaranteed Income
• Institute for Research on Poverty
• Center for Guaranteed Income Research

15:57-17:46 – Luke – It’s important to acknowledge the stigma and mistrust around some of our safety net systems as it has led to billions of dollars left on the table as reported by Matthew Desmond and others recently. If people are embarrassed to access or distrustful of anti-poverty programs, then they aren’t achieving their objectives. 

• Poverty, by America – Matthew Desmond

17:47-25:06 - Allison – Recurring, unconditional and unrestricted. Recipients can trust that it will be available to them during the period that it has been promised compared to many conditional and restricted public benefits. 

Participants spend the money on basic needs.

Guaranteed income also offers opportunities for economic mobility.

Impacts of pandemic on economic stability.

19,000 participants involved in these programs that are being researched by CGIR.

Positive impacts on people’s economic stability and mobility.

• Stanford Basic Income Lab
• Stockton Economic Empowerment Demonstration
• Center for Guaranteed Income Research
• American Rescue Plan Act funding Guaranteed Income programs

25:07-26:58 - Luke – Poverty does not equal neglect; however, families living in poverty are much more likely to be investigated by Child Protective Services. So guaranteed income may reduce the likelihood that a family is investigated by CPS. 

How does GI align with our Strong Families, Thriving Children, Connected Communities initiative?

• The Bridge Project – Zilber Family Foundation 

26:59-32:01 - Blake – While Guaranteed Income is not a silver bullet, it can improve economic stability and social connections.

Positive impacts on people’s mental health and stress levels. GI allows participants to provide more for their kids, pay rent, cover child care costs. Participant stories are available on the Madison Forward Fund website. 

When caregivers can meet their own needs, they can show up better for their kids.

• Participant Stories – Madison Forward Fund

32:02-32:55 – Luke – People’s stories to illustrate the data is always helpful and powerful. Same question to Allison.

32:56-39:38 - Allison – How might guaranteed income be a child welfare intervention? Labor market and social safety net are inadequate to help families meet their basic needs for too many families. Guaranteed income assumes that families know best how to care for their children.

New York child welfare pilot. Los Angeles County pilot with youth that have aged out of child care.

• New York State Direct Cash Transfer Research Pilot
• Breathe: Los Angeles County’s Guaranteed Income Program

39:39-40:55 – Luke – How might we implement these models into our communities?

40:56-45:57 – Blake – The mechanics and administration of guaranteed income programs are not complicated. There is more and more data improving the evidence base and showing its effectiveness. We need to do more basic education about what guaranteed income is and what it can accomplish. GI is a policy choice that will need to be made to help pay for it. 

45:58-47:46 - Luke – Education and mental model shifts will be important to policy and funding changes that support guaranteed income programs. How might guaranteed income programs lead to cost savings if it leads to a reduction in child welfare spending?

47:47-50:20 - Allison – Research on guaranteed income is nascent. There is a growing body of evidence. Thinking more about cost-benefit analysis. The Child Tax Credit expansion during COVID, which mirrors a guaranteed income program, cut the child poverty rate in half. 

• The Anti-Poverty Effects of the Expanded Child Tax Credit – Brookings 

50:21-50:31 - Luke – When we have the will, our policies can have a profound impact.

50:32-52:25 - Blake – Many states have implemented a state child tax credit. We don’t have that here in Wisconsin. Wisconsin Farmers Union has interest in guaranteed income to support agricultural communities in the state. 

• Wisconsin Governor’s Health Equity Council Report
• Wisconsin Farmers Union

52:26-52:50 - Luke Waldo – Closing and Gratitude 

52:51-52:57 - Allison – Thank you.

52:58-53:08 – Blake – Thank you.

53:09-56:34 - Luke Waldo - 3 Key Takeaways 

1. “People are working hard, and yet they still can’t make ends meet.” 75 years ago, we didn’t look down on people who were impacted by polio, we came together as a society to keep our kids safe by creating a solution to prevent it. How might we change the conditions today for the working poor as we did for families and communities generations ago so that they can thrive? 
2. “Think about the freedom of choice, trust, and self-determination as a way of bringing some trust back to our social safety net and welfare systems.”  As Blake and Dr. Thompson shared, programs like guaranteed income that are predictable and unconditional, parents and caregivers have shown us that they not only know what’s best for their kids, they do what’s best for their kids by investing in their basic needs like food, housing, childcare, and education. 
3. “There’s a way to address poverty, it’s about the will.” Whether it’s through expanded Child Tax Credits that have shown to cut childhood poverty in half in a single year, or through increased minimum wage or guaranteed income programs, there are policy and systems changes that have proven to combat poverty and improve family economic stability and mobility. So how might we see the systemic issues of family poverty as we did with our public health crises from a century ago, so that the conditions might change for overloaded families through effective Family Prosperity policies and systems changes?

Join the conversation and connect with us!

• Visit our podcast page on our ICFW website to learn more about the experts you hear in this series.
• Subscribe, rate our show and leave feedback in the comments section.
• Sign up for our Strong Families, Thriving Children, Connected Communities initiative and our quarterly newsletter.
• Follow the Institute for Child and Family Well-being on Facebook, Instagram and LinkedIn.
• Email Luke Waldo at [email protected] to share how you are changing the conditions so that children and families can thrive.

Host: Luke Waldo

Experts:

• Jennifer Jones – Prevent Child Abuse America

:05-:14 - Jennifer Jones – “We must disrupt the status quo and advance equitable access to opportunities and environments that all families need to thrive.”

:22–4:35 – Luke Waldo – Welcome, Opening, and Jennifer Jones’ bio.

39,325 reports of suspected child neglect were made to Wisconsin Child Protective Services. In other words, every single day, 108 people across Wisconsin felt worried enough about a child to take the time to report them with the belief that they or their family would receive some support or intervention to ensure that the child was safe and well. Of those nearly 40,000 reports, 88% were unsubstantiated for maltreatment. In fact, over 26,000 or two out of every three reports of neglect were screened out, which means that they don't receive any form of service or response to the concerns that the person that reported them had for them in the first place. These are often reports of struggles with economic insecurity, as 85% of families investigated by child protective services are living at or below 200% of the federal poverty line. 

So the question becomes, how might we create a better alternative to reporting overloaded families to child protective services so that they receive the targeted support and resources that they need to thrive? How might we empower teachers, police officers, social workers, doctors, and nurses who are on the front lines of supporting overloaded families to build trust through referrals and connections to prevention services and resources, rather than suspicion through reports to Child Protective Services?

4:36-4:44 – Jennifer Jones – Thank you for the invitation to join the pod again.

4:45-4:56 – Luke - Why is a Primary Prevention System needed today in the US?

4:57-11:25 – Jennifer – Why we need a Primary Prevention System in the US. 

In 2022 over 3 million children were investigated for child abuse or neglect in this country, and of those children, over 550,000 were considered victims of child abuse and neglect, and 74% of those were for neglect. Almost 40% of all children in this country are subjected to a child welfare investigation. For white kids, it's 28% and for black kids, it's significantly higher, at 53% so over half of black children in this country experience a child welfare investigation before they are 18. 

Families lacking income and resources for basic needs are often referred to the child welfare system for neglect, and we know that this disproportionately impacts black and indigenous families. We know that too many families are being subjected to harmful investigations. We know that too many families are being separated due to a range of things that could be addressed earlier, like poverty. There's great disproportionality, especially for black children and families, and overall, there is too little investment in prevention in this country.

We don't just want to prevent kids and families from coming to the attention of our nation's child welfare system. We want to reach them before they are in crisis, so they have what they need when they need it in the communities in which they live. We want to ensure that all children and families are living a purposeful and happy life with hope for the future. That is the heart and the foundation of our new theory of change. 

We believe that we need a drastically different approach to supporting families, ensuring what they have to what they need to be happy, healthy and economically secure. We must change how our society values and cares for all children and families. And in doing this, we will write the next chapter of primary prevention in this country.

• A Theory of Change for Primary Prevention in the US – Prevent Child Abuse America

11:26-11:58 - Luke – What so many families who are feeling overloaded by the weight of poverty or social isolation need is someone to lessen that load. So how might a primary prevention ecosystem do that? What does Prevent Child Abuse America hope to change or accomplish with this theory of change?

11:59-16:33 – Jennifer Jones – What the PCAA Theory of Change for a Primary Prevention System aspires to accomplish, its North Star, and its process.

• Building a Shared Understanding and Shifting Mindsets
• Policies and Practices
• Collective Responsibility

Theory of Change principles and 5 strategies.

• Transform the narrative
• Center families
• Build evidence and advocate
• Activate adaptive action
• Grow human and financial capacity

16:34-17:44 – Luke – How might we implement the Theory of Change?

17:45-21:05 – Jennifer – It creates a Primary Prevention strategy for everyone across the country. Plug and Play Theory of Change. The flexibility for each community is critical as this is not a “one size fits all” solution. Unify and align a diverse group of actors. 

CHSA has adopted the North Star, which shows the collective energy.

• Children’s Home Society of America
• PCAA Theory of Change – Plug and Play

21:06-21:17 - Luke – Thank you, Jennifer.

21:18-22:09 – Jennifer – Thank you, Luke.

22:10-24:02 - Luke – 3 Key Takeaways.

1. Many of the pieces already exist for a Primary Prevention Ecosystem, but they are not yet aligned or comprehensive. So how might we work together across primary prevention programs such as Home Visiting, Family Resource Centers economic and concrete support programs with systems like housing, early education, and healthcare to create greater alignment and shared language? As Jennifer shared, if this alignment were to create a comprehensive Ecosystem and Prevent Child Abuse America were to achieve its goal, we could divert 50 million kids over the next 25 years from CPS and keep them with their families who would have what they need to thrive.
2. Center families in the decision-making process. More specifically, how might we learn from families who have benefitted from prevention services and resources so that they didn’t have to experience deeper end systems like Child Protective Services? As we will hear throughout this season, we must move beyond transactional relationships with people with lived experience, and move into authentic trust and power-sharing that leads to better informed decision-making.
3. Individuals and organizations that haven’t seen themselves as contributing to child maltreatment prevention need to be a part of this prevention ecosystem. I have been inspired by the participation of housing and anti-poverty advocates, educators, and police officers in our Strong Families, Thriving Children, Connected Communities initiative as they see their role and potential partnerships that may lead to preventing child neglect and family separation. After today’s conversation with Jennifer, I hope that many more of you will join us so that all children and families may live a purposeful and happy life with hope for the future.

24:08-25:32 - Luke – Closing Credits

Join the conversation and connect with us!

• Visit our podcast page on our ICFW website to learn more about the experts you hear in this series.
• Subscribe, rate our show and leave feedback in the comments section.
• Sign up for our Strong Families, Thriving Children, Connected Communities initiative and our quarterly newsletter.
• Follow the Institute for Child and Family Well-being on Facebook, Instagram and LinkedIn.
• Email Luke Waldo at [email protected] to share how you are changing the conditions so that children and families can thrive.

Over the past 30 years, we have seen a 60% decline in physical and sexual abuse of children across the United States. At the same time, we have only seen a 10% decline in child neglect.  We have also seen poverty remain stubbornly persistent while learning that 85% of families investigated by the Child Protective Services live at or below 200% of the federal poverty line. As we have learned over these years about the positive impacts of social connections on our well-being and ability to manage stress and crises, we have also seen social isolation grow across our country.

These realities have motivated us over the past three years of our Strong Families, Thriving Children, Connected Communities initiative and the first two seasons of this podcast series to build a shared understanding of neglect, its underlying roots causes, and the social and systemic critical pathways we may take to advance promising solutions.  

This year and this season of the podcast, we confront these complex realities where, too often, overloaded families are expected to beat the odds that have been stacked against them; and we explore how we might change the conditions so that we improve the odds for children and families to thrive.

To do that, we must ask, how might we transform our systems, create a prevention ecosystem, and center families as the experts they are and the changemakers they should be?

And why now?  

Today’s episode included the following speakers (in the order they appear):

Host: Luke Waldo

Experts:

• Jennifer Jones – Prevent Child Abuse America
• Kate Luster – Rock County Department of Human Services
• Allison Thompson – Center for Guaranteed Income Research
• Samantha Copus – Jefferson County Parents Supporting Parents
• Blake Roberts Crall – Madison Forward Fund
• Bryan Samuels – Chapin Hall
• Anthony Barrows – Network of Intersectional Professionals
• Marlo Nash – Children’s Home Society of America
• Laura Radel – US Department of Health and Human Services
• Jaclyn Gilstrap – A Visual Approach
• Norma Hatfield – Generations United
• Andry Sweet, CEO, Children's Home Society of Florida
• Ramona Denby-Brinson – University of North Carolina School of Social Work

:00–2:33 - Luke Waldo 

Over the past 30 years, we have seen a 60% decline in physical and sexual abuse of children across the United States. At the same time, we have only seen a 10% decline in child neglect.  We have also seen poverty remain stubbornly persistent while learning that 85% of families investigated by the Child Protective Services live at or below 200% of the federal poverty line. As we have learned over these years about the positive impacts of social connections on our well-being and ability to manage stress and crises, we have also seen social isolation grow across our country.

These realities have motivated us over the past three years of our Strong Families, Thriving Children, Connected Communities initiative and the first two seasons of this podcast series to build a shared understanding of neglect, its underlying roots causes, and the social and systemic critical pathways we may take to advance promising solutions. 

This year and this season of the podcast, we confront these complex realities where, too often, overloaded families are expected to beat the odds that have been stacked against them; and we explore how we might change the conditions so that we improve the odds for children and families to thrive.

To do that, we must ask, how might we transform our systems, create a prevention ecosystem, and center families as the experts they are and the changemakers they should be?

And why now? 

• Strong Families, Thriving Children, Connected Communities Initiative

2:34-7:29 – Jennifer Jones

In 2022, over 3 million children were investigated for child maltreatment. There is great disproportionality for Black children as 50% will be investigated in their childhood by the child welfare system. We invest too little in prevention.

We know that child welfare reform is happening across the country to provide better outcomes for children and families already in the system or entering today. But we also know that we have to move further upstream.

We also know that social connectedness and Positive Childhood Experiences (PCEs) are essential to long-term well-being. So we don’t want to just prevent bad things from happening, we want to promote PCEs.

• Positive Childhood Experiences – Jennifer Jones

We need to address the context within which children and families live rather than just focusing on the individual challenges. We need to address the systemic issues.

7:30-8:27 – Kate Luster

“In Rock County, about 22% of our families in in involved in child welfare services are Black African-American families, whereas only 7% of our county population is represented by Black families. And so we have overrepresentation at sort of every step of every level of decision making within the child welfare continuum, reports to access screened-in reports, investigations, separations, and out of home placements, et cetera. So we know we are we're not alone in that. Those are statistics that show up ah across the state and across the country. And we feel committed to prioritizing addressing those disparities in our work moving forward.”

8:28-10:06 - Allison Thompson

One in eight Americans live in poverty. And even with a full-time job, most families working minimum wage jobs still can't meet their basic needs. In fact, across many US cities, a parent of two children making the minimum wage would need to work between two to four minimum wage jobs just to make ends meet without benefits. And even with benefits, a parent working a full-time minimum wage job with two children typically experiences a $3,000 to $5,000 gap each month between their basic cost of living and their income and benefits.

To make matters worse, nearly half of all families with annual incomes of less than $25,000 a year also experience pretty significant income volatility, which means that their income each month is prone to both rapid and unpredictable change.

Each month, families are often forced to make hard decisions to survive, decisions about paying utility bills or purchasing more costly, healthy foods. paying co-pays for their own medication versus paying their rent. And the bottom line is that neither the labor market nor the social safety net in the US is sufficient to keep families out of poverty. More is needed. 

10:07-10:30 – Samantha Copus 

“It’s the child welfare system, not the parent welfare system. Who’s going to be looking after these parents who are looking out for their children?”

10:31-11:11 - Allison Thompson

Increasingly, we also know that economic and material hardship are significant predictors of child welfare involvement. This shows up as neglect often in the child welfare system. penalizing families for not having the means or resources necessary to make up for these market failures or government shortcomings. This type of neglect suggests that addressing inadequate economic resources should be one of the core set of tools for families when aiming to prevent child welfare involvement and out-of-home placement. So guaranteed income has emerged as an evidence-informed strategy to alleviate some of the burden that families bear as a result of the market failures and safety net shortcomings.”

11:13-12:18 - Blake Roberts Crall 

“And I really believe that our social safety net in this country plays a huge, huge role in helping to ensure financial security for our families and their well-being. So that's a really important part of our social infrastructure that we need, um and it does it does a lot for families and for children. And at the same time, there's still so much more to do because there are families that are still struggling. We know that people are not able to make ends meet. 

And I think that there's an opportunity to look at our social safety net and figure out ways that we can make it better, make it more accessible, more inclusive, and provide more resources to families. It seems pretty crazy to me that you can be working in this country full time or working more than full time and still not be able to pay all of your bills and still to be struggling financially. The term working poor, we hear that a lot. That's literally people are working, but still under that poverty line. So for me, there's a lot of opportunity to be doing something different and really to think about how can we build systems of care and well-being for everyone. And I think guaranteed income or basic income is one possible tool that we can add in our toolbox.”

• What is Guaranteed Income? – Madison Forward Fund

12:19-13:16 - Jennifer Jones 

The Theory of Change shifts to building and aligning a prevention ecosystem to create the conditions so all children and families can thrive. We want them to have what they need, when they need it, in the places where they need it. 

• Theory of Change for Primary Prevention in the United States – Prevent Child Abuse America

13:17-14:34 – Bryan Samuels

People come upon good ideas, they spend as much time as they can, but then often have to move on. After George Floyd’s murder, there was a moment where real change was demanded around equity for our communities. So Chapin Hall began focusing on how authentic systems transformation through community engagement occurs.

• System Transformation through Community Leadership – Chapin Hall

14:36-15:30 - Luke Waldo 

Why is the authentic integration of Lived Experience into our systems and organizations’ decision-making and power-sharing needed today? 

15:32-15:46 - Anthony Barrows

“I’ve been on the inside of these systems. I’ve seen how they can positively transform people’s lives when they work and chew up and spit out people when they don’t work.”

15:47-15:55 - Samantha Copus

“The single most frustrating thing is screaming and feeling like no one can hear you.” 

15:57-16:58 – Marlo Nash 

The current transactional state of Lived Experience in our systems practices. We need to move away from this, and yet there isn’t a guidebook or crystal-clear path.

16:59-17:41 - Laura Radel

“But there is a lot of excitement in many of the groups around the expansion of authentic engagement. I think that was a key theme that was coming out. However, folks are struggling within their organizations about making a true culture shift, and moving from a rallying cry to real action, more upstream in our processes and activities, and moving from storytelling and commenting mostly on the back end and on tentative decisions that our organizations have already started to make instead of engaging folks early and often, and with true power-sharing from the beginning.”

17:42-18:43 – Jaclyn Gilstrap 

How do we address the harm when it happens, not if it happens? How do we do this for real, for real? People with lived experience confront many barriers, so how do we address this? 

18:44-19:27 – Norma Hatfield 

True collaboration requires that we work together from the beginning of a process all the way until we are done building something together. House metaphor. 

19:28-19:54 – Andry Sweet 

Co-creation requires that we really listen.

19:55-20:48 

Dean Ramona Denby-Brinson – Lived experience is a way of knowing. Moving away from the transactional nature of these relationships. We want the same for our families – health, happiness, and hope.

20:49-21:04 - Anthony Barrows 

Who isn’t being listened to in your work?

21:05-21:36 - Marlo Nash 

People with lived experience are willing to share their stories, often traumatic, but also their expertise to make changes that will improve outcomes for children and families now and for future generations.

21:39-21:54 - Luke Waldo – Closing and Gratitude 

21:56-23:00 Luke Waldo - 3 Key Takeaways 

1. We don't want to only prevent the bad things from happening. We need to promote and grow the good things.
2. How might systems change themselves in order to respond to the needs of a diverse population of families that they serve?
3. How do we address the harm that we've caused, and how do we do this for real, for real. How do we have the humility and the accountability to address the harm that has been caused, that families that we serve have been telling us, often yelling, yet unheard for too long.

23:07-24:30 - Luke Waldo – Closing Credits

Join the conversation and connect with us!

• Visit our podcast page on our ICFW website to learn more about the experts you hear in this series.
• Subscribe, rate our show and leave feedback in the comments section.
• Sign up for our Strong Families, Thriving Children, Connected Communities initiative and our quarterly newsletter.
• Follow the Institute for Child and Family Well-being on Facebook, Instagram and LinkedIn.
• Email Luke Waldo at [email protected] to share how you are changing the conditions so that children and families can thrive.