Overloaded: Understanding Neglect

Today’s episode included the following speakers (in the order they appear):

Host: Luke Waldo

Experts:

• Samantha Copus – Jefferson County Parents Supporting Parents

:04–:33 – Samantha Copus – “That's the main piece. That's the secret sauce of peer support. Is connection, is that you can show me the part of you that you think is the worst, and I'm still going to show up and tell you, like, Oh, that's okay. How do we move forward? How do you want to move forward? Because nothing you've done changes what I think you're worth, and I'm still going to show up and support you. And I think that's when you start breaking down those barriers and giving these parents, you know, something they couldn't get anywhere else.”

:41-3:29 – Luke – Opening, Samantha’s Bio, and Opening

The history of peer support goes back long before we had formal systems like child protection or mental health. 

It wasn’t until fairly recently that these peer support and mentor models were translated to child welfare. So I wanted to learn more about the model that is being implemented in Wisconsin.

Parents Supporting Parents is a peer support program designed in Iowa for parents involved in the Child Protection System that is now implemented here in a handful of counties across Wisconsin. 

Samantha Copus is a mother to two children and identifies as a person in long term recovery. Samantha has a variety of lived experiences ranging from mental health, substance use disorders, domestic violence and being a mother who had a child in the child welfare system, all which qualify her now to serve as a parent partner in Jefferson County as part of the Parents Supporting Parents program. 

3:29-3:37 – Samantha – Thank you.

3:38-4:01 - Luke – Why are peer support programs such as Parents Supporting Parents needed today? 

4:02-5:02 – Samantha – What we were doing without it wasn’t working. Families weren’t feeling heard, weren’t feeling connected. 

“You wouldn’t hire a tour guide that’s never been to that destination.”

5:03-6:00 – Luke – I’d like to dive deeper into the ‘why’ behind one of today’s focus areas: social connectedness. Why do you think peer support—and your role as a parent partner in the Parents Supporting Parents program—is so critical to improving social connectedness for the caregivers and parents you serve?"

6:01-9:07 – Samantha – Parenting alone can be isolating. Peer support allows for non-judgmental showing up and walking the journey with the parent. 

“It’s the child welfare system, not the parent welfare system. Who’s going to be looking after these parents who are looking out for their children?”

Social connection is the secret sauce that breaks down barriers and allows the parent to share their darkest moments and still know that that person will keep showing up.

9:08-10:04 – Luke – This perspective helps explain why there is growing momentum behind the incorporation of lived experience into our systems and decision-making. It’s difficult to teach the emotional experience of being on the other side of child welfare. 

It is important to take that first step of acknowledging that lived experience should be a part of our systems. It’s another to scale it so that it can have a greater impact. 

So what does Parenting Supporting Parents do? And what does it hope to accomplish or change in the child welfare system and for parents and caregivers?

10:05-13:20 – Samantha – Parents Supporting Parents (PSP) is an evidence-based program out of Iowa that is voluntary for parents involved in the child welfare system. The program is growing across the state – Rock, Milwaukee, Eau Claire, Jefferson. 

We are also looking at it moving further upstream so that we can work with families to prevent child welfare involvement. Rock County hired two parents who previously worked with a PSP partner.

13:21-14:21 - Luke – It can be difficult to scale promising models, so it is promising to hear that Parents Supporting Parents is scaling across the state and within counties. What are some of the key components of your role? How do they impact the parents that you serve? 

14:22-19:09 - Samantha – Parent Partners support parents at court, by transporting them to services, processing through what they need during those car rides or on the phone, referring to services. Sharing space. Providing another voice of lived experience during meetings with professionals. 

Participate in trainings on foster care placements to provide additional perspective. Peer support in a system shows that we are seeking alignment to find solutions for families.

“I think having peer support embedded in your system is a system that is ready to hold itself accountable.”

19:10-20:54 – Luke – The magic happening during those drives - to appointments or court—when the most honest conversations often take place. It’s something that’s hard to evaluate or formalize or even train staff on in a program, but as you said, these moments are critical for connection and building trust, particularly for people who’ve been isolated by challenges like domestic violence or substance use.

Given how demanding this work can be—requiring, for example, you to revisit some of your darkest moments—how important is it for you to have other parent partners to confide in or lean on when you’re feeling overloaded?"

20:55-24:35 - Samantha – They are the supports I didn’t know that I needed. Parent Partners work closely together. 

24:36-25:03 - Luke – Where do you see the greatest impact in your 18 months, almost two years in this role?

25:04-30:27 – Samantha – At the macro-level, it’s been great seeing more and more people interested in this work. At the micro-level, the change that can happen when there’s one healthy, supportive person in someone’s life. “I have had a client tell me that they told me something that they’ve never told anyone before.”

Transformation can happen when people feel connected and believed in. Child welfare workers value her perspective and support of the parent. 

“The single most frustrating thing is screaming and feeling like no one can hear you.”

“Having peer support embedded can keep people compassionate instead of complacent.” 

30:28-33:09 - Luke – Social isolation is a growing crisis. The U.S. Surgeon General’s 2023 report on social isolation and loneliness highlighted this epidemic, and more recently, a report on parents’ mental health revealed that nearly half of all parents feel overwhelmed by stress most days. It’s sobering but underscores the importance of building social connectedness.

• Our Epidemic of Loneliness and Social Isolation - US Surgeon General
• Raj Chetty

With that in mind, I’d love for you to reflect on how your role as a parent partner aligns with our four critical pathways, which are:

1. Social Connectedness;
2. Economic Stability;
3. Community Collaborationwhere we hope to improve coordination among systems and services to better serve families. And finally, 
4. Workforce Inclusion and Innovation, which looks at how we might diversify the workforce to reflect those being served and also address challenges like burnout.

Feel free to take this in any direction that you’d like.

33:10-38:02 - Samantha – PSP is evidence-based which has shown to lower reentry rates for those that have had a Parent Partner. Parent Partners assist a lot with Economic Stability by creating bridges to housing and food stability, access to benefits and job opportunities. Lived Experience partners stand between theory and reality. 

$2000 prescription metaphor. In theory it works, in practice the patient can’t afford it. 

Mandated reporting is mandated supporting in the PSP world. 

38:03-39:42 - Luke - How might communities implement a role like parent partners or a program like Parents Supporting Parents?

For those listening who are inspired by this model, what do you believe are the critical conditions for implementing and scaling it?

Beyond that, what other conditions, practices, or opportunities do you think are essential to successfully implement and scale this model? And how do we ensure there are enough parent partners and enough support for you to meet the demand within each community?"

39:43-43:20 - Samantha – Contact Department of Children and Families. This work requires authenticity. Look around your community as there are likely lived experience helpers already doing the work. Make it an equitable relationship with your peers. 

• Department of Children and Families

43:21-44:32 - Luke – This conversation has been both inspirational and instructive. It challenges our mental models and hopefully moves us to consider the importance of equity and the role that lived experience brings to it. Gratitude.

44:33-44:52 - Samantha – Thank you! 

44:53-45:07 – Luke – Thank you, Samantha!

45:12-46:53 - Luke – 3 Key Takeaways 

1. “You wouldn’t hire a tour guide that’s never been to that destination.” As Samantha goes on to say, this doesn’t take away from the knowledge, expertise, and dedication of system staff. Rather, it’s a powerful statement about the deep personal experience and understanding of the system from a parent who has been through it that can provide a complementary perspective to paint a more complete picture.
2. “The secret sauce of peer support is connection, where you can show me the part of you that you think is the worst, and I'm still going to show up for you.” As Marlo said in episode 4, we are more than our darkest moments. Standing with someone so they can get through those darkest moments to see their light again can often be the most transformative service we can give. 
3. “I think having peer support embedded in your system is a system that is ready to hold itself accountable.” And ““Having peer support embedded can keep people compassionate instead of complacent.” There are so many ways in which a system can be held accountable, so that first statement is worth reflecting on for a while. I chose to follow it with the second statement because I feel that we can always be reminded why we, the people that make up these systems, wanted to do this work in the first place. 

47:05-49:00 – Luke – Closing Credits

Join the conversation and connect with us!

• Visit our podcast page on our ICFW website to learn more about the experts you hear in this series.
• Subscribe, rate our show and leave feedback in the comments section.
• Sign up for our Strong Families, Thriving Children, Connected Communities initiative and our quarterly newsletter.
• Follow the Institute for Child and Family Well-being on Facebook, Instagram and LinkedIn.

Today’s episode included the following speakers (in the order they appear):

Host: Luke Waldo

Experts:

• CJ Suitt – MC for Wicked Problems Institute Convening
• Sixto Cancel - Think of Us
• Anthony Barrows – Network of Intersectional Professionals
• Bryn Fortune - Fortune Consulting & Nurture Connection Family Network Collaborative

:06-:18 - Opening Clip – Anthony Barrows -– “And for all of you who are really interested in thinking about ‘how do we bring lived experience into our work, my guess is that we are probably already there, and maybe not raising our hands to self-disclose for lots of reasons.”

00:22-2:59 – Luke Waldo – Opening and Introduction to Wicked Problems Institute national convening and the episode’s three speakers.

2:59- CJ Suitt – Introduction of Sixto Cancel and Think of Us.

3:30-25:20 – Sixto Cancel – Opening acknowledgement of the audience and the work being done to elevate lived experience.

• Sixto Cancel’s Slide Deck – Wicked Problems Institute convening

Sixto shares why he started Think of Us as a college student when he realized that he wanted young people to have more control over their child welfare cases than he did as a foster youth who could have lived with family members. 

What Think of Us does. Direct practice through Resource Navigators. Research.

Proximate Policy. Sixto provides a powerful example of how Think of Us and young people with lived expertise influenced policy change around kinship care.

He talks about how they reimagined their role and the process away from just telling their stories and providing recommendations to becoming part of the prioritization and decision-making processes.

• National Convening on Kinship Care – Children’s Bureau

What does it mean to be an Ambassador?

Going beyond traditional diversity. 

How is it that you take your lens while also connecting with the young people that are living it today?

Great story about how the Ambassador’s work. Partnered with an agency, Unicorn Solutions, and asked “What can this federal agency do? And what can it not do?” 

• Unicorn Solutions

You have to have resource navigation for the ambassadors.

Crowdsourcing. Surveyed thousands of people, themed the responses, created long- and short-form documents sharing the themes, and then compared with Congressional Coalition on Adoption Institute for Foster Club and other leaders’ crowdsourcing and research. “This kind of work matters and will pay off…” 

• Congressional Coalition on Adoption Institute
• Foster Club

All this prep work allows for the Ambassadors to identify policy and strategy priorities based on what is possible.

Solid process description starting with game night, relationship building, then trust building. 

Sixto finishes with a Michelle Alexander quote that is powerful about family separation. 

Follows it with Bryan Stevenson and the importance of proximity. “How do we integrate rather than engage?”

Goal of Think of Us is to serve as an R&D center that shares its lessons learned to be scaled. 

25:21-25:31 – Takkeem Morgan - “What would you like to see replicated?” 

25:32-27:55 - Sixto - Integration instead of engagement.

27:56-28:15 - Luke – Introduction of Anthony Barrows.

28:16-28:28 - CJ asks about Intersectional Professionals. 

28:29-53:00– Anthony Barrows - How the world experiences us based on our identities can shape how we engage with the world. 

• Anthony Barrow’s Slide Deck – Wicked Problems Institute convening
• Who are Intersectional Professionals? - Anthony Barrows 

Anthony’s introduction to himself and his work.

“I’ve been on the inside of these systems. I’ve seen how they can positively transform people’s lives when they work and chew up and spit out people when they don’t work.”

How do we make key systems deliver better for individuals?

Case Study - Strong example of the disconnect between the content experts from the context experts in San Francisco dropout study. Interesting content regarding social connectedness.

• Project Evident
• Ideas42

We asked the people closest to the problem. They identified different reasons for their academic challenges compared to the professionals’ reasons.

How is Lived Experience used in our work today? Who has control of the outcomes? 

• Organizationally-Bound
• Research-Driven
• Design-Focused
• Advocacy-Oriented

Anthony is going to give a different view on how Lived Experience can be used. He provides the Venn diagram of the Intersectional Professional. 

• People with lived experience of a system
• People doing work, research or advocacy in a system
• People with professional and/or academic training relevant to a system

Why does it matter? “I believe that intersectional professionals should be leading systems change. As dual experts, insiders with outsider experience.”

“We are probably already in your organization, but may not be raising our hands to let you know.”

Why did we decide to do this work? “This work can be isolating… so well-being is very important.” Five values that guide the work.

• Liberation
• Autonomy
• Creativity
• Excellence
• Solidarity

Summarizing his paper, The Experts by Experience.

• The Experts by Experience

Process.

Three Takeaways.

Best practices. 

How to implement this model. 

5 Integration Takeaways.

• Community knowledge must be treated as its own form of valuable expertise 
• Effective collaboration requires intentional investment of resources 
• Organizational leadership is a prerequisite for successful collaboration 
• People engaged in design should represent intra-community diversity 
• Create infrastructure and explicit roles that enable meaningful power-sharing

The Peer Health Exchange case study.

• Peer Health Exchange

53:01-53:25 - Luke - How might we more effectively support those folks, especially early in that kind of process or transition? 

53:26-54:56 - Anthony - Send them to the Network of Intersectional Professionals. Build supportive cohorts of more intersectional professionals.

54:57-55:17 - Luke – Introduction of Bryn Fortune.

55:18-56:09 - CJ – Introduction to Bryn.

56:10-1:11:38 – Bryn Fortune – Lived experience as a mother of a child with special needs who had 85 surgeries and grew up 40 years ago inside a Children’s Hospital in Detroit. While she had privilege, many of the people she met there did not, so she used her lived experience and what she saw others experience to advocate for change with the hospital leadership. 

• Bryn Fortune’s Slide Deck – Wicked Problems Institute convening

“Six degrees of separation of privilege” speaks to how lived experience brings a needed perspective that system leaders often don’t get to understand gaps.

Working in Alaska currently because the community has the highest child welfare referral rate in the country from their Head Start and early childhood programs.

How this model was developed. 

• Sherry Arnstein
• A Ladder of Citizen Participation – Sherry Arnstein
• Spectrum of Community Engagement to Ownership – Facilitating Power - Rosa Gonzalez 
• Who are Intersectional Professionals? - Anthony Barrows 

A flavor of the What the model does. 

Redesigning structures. 

Pregnancy to 1000 days. 

Working with 6 diverse populations and regions in the country to learn from. 

Identifying Intersectional Professionals who were working with the distinct populations.

Bryn’s description of her program, how it was informed, and how it was implemented.

• Reach Out and Read
• Living Room Language

“What we learned about equity is that 4 out of the 6 communities didn’t know what it meant.”

Bryn’s comments about relationships and the value of Parent Partners was powerful as she states that “there is a lot of mistrust with our systems for many good reasons”.

Steering Committee made up of Lived Experience experts that are now working with Harvard researchers.

Steering Committee members bring their own Lived Experience, and they also represent their communities in a way that they are speaking to what would help the collective behind them.

Historically, well-intentioned professionals have often treated this work tokenistically. 

“This is all very adaptable…” Lived experience changes over time and we need to honor those changes.

1:11:39-1:13:42 - Luke – 3 Key Takeaways

1. Diversity matters. As Sixto and Bryn both shared from their work, racial, gender, sexual orientation, and age diversity is critical to consider when working with lived experience partners. Equally important is their diversity of experience as someone who has been separated from their parents will have a very different experience with child welfare than a foster parent, even if they have worked with the same system or workers. 
2. Any one of those experiences can’t encapsulate the 360 degree life that we’ve lived. As Anthony shared, someone who has experience in the child welfare system is not defined by that experience, certainly not alone. Each person has a rich history, yes, often informed by their experiences with systems like child welfare, public schools and housing, and also by their experiences with joy, family, and triumph. Let’s honor and learn from all those experiences, from the whole person that sits before us. 
3. So, how should we bring lived experience into our work? I share Anthony’s guess that Intersectional Professionals are already there, but may not be raising their hands to self-disclose for lots of reasons. So how might we develop the culture and community within our organizations to support and empower those with lived experience much like the Network of Intersectional Professionals so that they may bring their whole selves safely and confidently into their work? How might we invest in lived experience through intentional processes, roles, and support systems like the Family Network Collaborative model and its Steering Committee or the Ambassador model that Sixto described? How might we move away from the transactional approaches of yesterday and towards the foundation, capacity and equity-building approaches that our experts shared today?

1:14:00-1:15:53 - Luke – Closing Credits

Join the conversation and connect with us!

• Visit our podcast page on our ICFW website to learn more about the experts you hear in this series.
• Subscribe, rate our show and leave feedback in the comments section.
• Sign up for our Strong Families, Thriving Children, Connected Communities initiative and our quarterly newsletter.
• Follow the Institute for Child and Family Well-being on Facebook, Instagram and LinkedIn.

Today’s episode included the following speakers (in the order they appear):

Host: Luke Waldo

Experts:

• Marlo Nash – Children’s Home Society of America

:00-:15 – Marlo Nash - “It’s really important to understand that the information we understand through people’s experiences is knowledge that can be used to change systems, to make practices and policies better.” 

:22–3:33 – Luke Waldo – Opening, Marlo’s Bio, and Welcome

Lived experience, lived expertise, context experts… For the past many years, we have seen a movement towards including or elevating or integrating the voice of lived experience into our work. But what does that really mean? What does that mean for the person that has lived through the child welfare system? What does that mean for the people working in the system? What are we trying to accomplish or change, and how might we do this better? 

If you have considered any of these questions or find yourself at a loss as to what the answers might or should be, then you’re in the right place. Over the next three episodes, we will be exploring these questions, many lessons learned as our guests worked through these questions, and the strategies designed and implemented by people with lived experience who, today, are leading others with lived experience. 

Today’s episode, along with next week’s, will share what was learned during this year’s Wicked Problems Institute national convening titled “Unlocking the Power of Lived Experience through True Collaboration,” hosted by Children’s Home Society of America or CHSA and the Jordan Institute for Families at the University of North Carolina School of Social Work.

Today you will hear from Marlo Nash, managing director of CHSA, who led the planning and execution of the convening. 

• Wicked Problems Institute 2024
• Jordan Institute for Families

3:34-3:57 – Marlo Nash – As the podcast’s biggest fan, it’s a pleasure being here.

3:58-4:45 – Luke – Why do we need to give more attention and action to integrating lived expertise into our systems and organizations?

4:46-8:01 – Marlo – Why we need to create the answers by providing safe spaces to learn. Lived experience is knowledge that informs how we can improve systems, practices and policies. 

Overarching theme of Building Equitable Pathways to Child and Family Well-being, and this year the theme was Unlocking the Power of Lived Experience through True Collaboration. 

“How do we do this for real, for real.” 

8:02-8:37 – Luke – Recognizing Marlo and CHSA for pulling off an inspiring virtual Wicked event. What are objectives and aspirations of Wicked? What does it hope to change?

8:38-12:40 – Marlo – CHSA’s mission and vision, and how Wicked supports this. Our systems and organizations have historically underappreciated the contributions of lived experience partners. Six conditions of systems change. Dig deeper in practice around integrating lived experience into our work.

The current transactional state of Lived Experience in our systems practices.

People with lived experience are willing to share their stories, often traumatic, but also their expertise to make changes that will improve outcomes for children and families now and for future generations.

• Six Conditions of Systems Change - FSG

12:41-13:45 - Luke – It’s important to acknowledge that we haven’t done this right or even caused harm. What is powerful about CHSA and Wicked is that we can acknowledge these challenges together across states and organizations.

13:46-14:08 - Marlo – Co-creating with lived experts is exciting, but can also retraumatize.

14:09-14:22 – Luke – What happened at Wicked this year?

14:23-23:38 - Marlo – Wicked is the event in which our 23 state members bring a team of public and private partners, funders, lived experience partners, so that we can hear our unique perspectives from one another.

Overview of CHSA, Wicked and the value of sharing unique perspectives from different sectors and roles.

Overview of the format of the day and introduces our 3 plenary speakers and their expertise and focus.

• Bryn Fortune - Nurture Connection Family Network Collaborative
• Sixto Cancel – Think of Us
• Anthony Barrows – Network of Intersectional Professionals

Synthesizers and their roles.

Themes that came up throughout the day:

Power imbalance. Put people and how they are feeling at the center. See empathetically. Move from storytelling and consultation to prioritization of informed-decision making. House metaphor and paint colors and curtains. Listen deeply even when it’s hard to hear. Relationships and community are the heart of doing this work.

23:39-24:33 - Luke – How might we implement these lessons learned into our practice, organizations, and systems?

24:34-26:05 - Marlo – Wicked has a graphic illustrator who captures the themes throughout the day. We encourage you to use it for ideas and inspiration. 

• Graphic Illustration – Wicked Problems Institute 2024
• A Visual Approach – Graphic Illustrators

26:06-26:45 - Luke – How do you see CHSA’s work and this year’s Wicked aligning with our SFTCCC Critical Pathways?

• Strong Families, Thriving Children, Connected Communities Critical Pathways

26:46-34:26 - Marlo – Engaging with Lived Experts requires that we center social connectedness. People are made up of lots of different parts, and we often see the worst parts of people as they are experiencing the darkest moments of their lives when they come to child welfare, for example. We must recognize that they are a whole person and they have many strong parts that we aren’t seeing right now. Their social connectedness and belonging are critical in understanding their whole self.

Workforce Inclusion and Innovation aligns well with the concept of Intersectional Professionals. Everyone wants appropriate boundaries to be set so that they can feel safe in their work. Everyone wants the support and resources needed to be their best self at work. How do we create those conditions that will make our workplaces positive spaces where they can be their whole selves?

Lived experience can illuminate what we really need to hear.

34:27-35:26 - Luke – I have seen how effective advocacy with policymakers by showing the data and research that is also supported by the lived experience of patients can be. Our mental models often allow us to have greater empathy for a family who has a child with cancer than a family who is involved in the child welfare system because of poverty. 

35:27-38:04 - Marlo – “Listen deeply even when it’s hard to hear.” People with Lived Experience shouldn’t be paraded in front of policymakers, but rather put in a position much like an Ambassador – see Sixto next week – where they are an engaged part of the process and impact.

38:05-38:49 - Luke – How might we implement some of these strategies to advance the vision of Wicked and CHSA?

38:50-48:53 - Marlo – Encourages listeners to check out the Show Notes and the graphic illustration. Engage with partners with Lived Experience and Wicked participants to deepen knowledge and strategies around how to integrate lived experience into your work. 

Pairing lived experience with research and science. Dean Ramona talked about lived experience as “a way of knowing”. Research Agenda on the 21st Century Child and Family Well-being. CHSA is a network of Scholar Practitioners who seek to confront the Wicked Problems in our systems. 

What policies – both legislative and organizational – need to be changed? 

We ideate so that we can work backwards from that big vision. Increasing authentic engagement with people with lived experience to make decisions together. 

“Marrying data, science, service, research, and advocacy with humanity and equity.”

Examining mental models around how we engage with people with lived experience. What mental models exist in our community?

Wicked is not a day of learning, but a medium to stay in community all year long. 

• The National Research Agenda for a 21st Century Child and Family Well-Being System
• Unsticking Stuck Mental Models – Collective Impact Forum

48:54-51:27 - Luke – My hope is that Wicked and this podcast will have ripple effects on our listeners. Wicked inspired me to build new relationships with partners including partners in New Jersey and Delaware to learn from one another and scale our work. Thank you for your partnership and vision.

51:28-53:30 - Marlo – Thank you for your work on this podcast that has challenged us to think about our mental models. 

53:31-54:46 – Luke – 3 Key Takeaways 

1. We need to move away from transactional relationships where people with lived experience are asked to share their darkest moments or to briefly consult after most decisions have already been made, and towards building authentic relationships that bring the whole person into decision making from the foundation to the curtains.
2. Listen deeply even when it’s hard to hear. Humility and the ability to acknowledge the harm that our systems have caused are at the heart of building trust and learning how to do better through partnership with families.
3. How might we create the conditions within our workspaces where intersectional professionals and community partners with lived experience can be their whole selves? Marlo asked this important question today. Come back next week to hear Anthony Barrows, Sixto Cancel, and Bryn Fortune answer it.

54:58-56:52 – Luke – Closing Credits

Join the conversation and connect with us!

• Visit our podcast page on our ICFW website to learn more about the experts you hear in this series.
• Subscribe, rate our show and leave feedback in the comments section.
• Sign up for our Strong Families, Thriving Children, Connected Communities initiative and our quarterly newsletter.
• Follow the Institute for Child and Family Well-being on Facebook, Instagram and LinkedIn.
• Email Luke Waldo at [email protected] to share how you are changing the conditions so that children and families can thrive.

Today’s episode included the following speakers (in the order they appear):

Host: Luke Waldo

Experts:

• Allison Thompson – Center for Guaranteed Income Research
• Blake Roberts Crall – Madison Forward Fund

 :00-:09 - Allison Thompson – “So there’s absolutely a way to address child poverty at the national level. It’s about the will, right?” 

:17–5:36 – Luke Waldo – Opening, Bios, and Welcome

In the first half of last century, American children and families faced a crisis. Invisible threats paralyzed society as viruses such as polio paralyzed children, claimed lives, and left communities in despair as they searched for solutions. In response, widespread quarantine shut down schools and public places to prevent the disease from spreading; and iron lungs were used to treat people already impacted by severe respiratory paralysis. But then came a groundbreaking prevention strategy through vaccines, massive public health campaigns, and the mobilization of resources to protect every community and get people back to living their lives without fear. Vaccination efforts eradicated polio from the United States 50 years ago and drastically reduced the burden of other deadly diseases, saving millions of lives, restoring hope for the future, and creating a blueprint for how bold prevention measures can transform society.

Today, children and families face another crisis. In 2022, over 7 million reports of alleged child abuse or neglect were made to Child Protective Services. 3 million families were subsequently investigated, and around 85% of them were living at or below 200% of the federal poverty line. Ultimately, of those 7 million reports, 550,000 were substantiated for maltreatment, or somewhere around 1 of every 10. 

How might we apply a similar public health approach that was used to address our polio crisis to address this crisis where too many families are overloaded by stress and vulnerable to child neglect, CPS investigations, and family separation? As we heard last episode from Jennifer Jones, Prevent Child Abuse America has a bold vision for what this could look like: an aligned and comprehensive primary prevention ecosystem that would empower all children and families to live a purposeful and happy life with hope for the future. One of its core aspirations is promoting economic stability, so that all families have the quality housing, childcare, and healthcare that we all need to thrive. 

In this episode, we’ll explore how guaranteed income programs and other economic supports that alleviate financial stress might help us move further upstream as an important part of that prevention ecosystem. Over the past six months, I have met many leaders of guaranteed income programs across the country. This journey began when the Bridge Project arrived here in Milwaukee to provide unconditional cash assistance to 100 low-income, pregnant mothers in Milwaukee for the next three years. Today, you will hear my conversation with two of these leaders who I’ve learned from on this journey, Blake Roberts Crall and Dr. Allison Thompson, as we explore the potential of guaranteed income programs as part of this primary prevention ecosystem. 

5:37-5:46 – Blake Roberts Crall and Allison Thompson – Thank you for having us.

5:47-6:03 – Luke Waldo – Why are guaranteed income or direct cash transfer programs needed today?

6:04-7:47 – Blake Roberts Crall – “And I really believe that our social safety net in this country plays a huge, huge role in helping to ensure financial security for our families and their well-being. So that's a really important part of our social infrastructure that we need, and it does a lot for families um and for children. And at the same time, um there's still so much more to do because there are families that are still struggling. We know that people are not able to make ends meet. 

And I think that there's an opportunity to look at our social safety net and figure out ways that we can make it better, make it more accessible, more inclusive, and provide more resources to families. um It seems pretty crazy to me that you can be working in this country full time or working more than full time and still not be able to pay all of your bills and still to be struggling financially. The term working poor, we hear that a lot. That's literally people are working, but still under that poverty line. So for me, there's a lot of opportunity to be doing something different and really to think about um how can we build systems of care and well-being for everyone. And I think guaranteed income or basic income is one possible tool that we can add in our toolbox.”

• What is Guaranteed Income? – Madison Forward Fund

7:48-7:50 – Luke – Same question to Allison.

7:51-10:41 - Allison Thompson - One in eight Americans live in poverty. And even with a full-time job, most families working minimum wage jobs still can't meet their basic needs. In fact, across many US cities, a parent of two children making the minimum wage would need to work between two to four minimum wage jobs just to make ends meet without benefits. And even with benefits, a parent working a full-time minimum wage job with two children typically experiences a $3,000 to $5,000 gap each month between their basic cost of living and their income and benefits.

To make matters worse, nearly half of all families with annual incomes of less than $25,000 a year also experience pretty significant income volatility, which means that their income each month is prone to both rapid and unpredictable change.

This might be because families are working hourly-waged jobs or doing gig work with unpredictable hours, or it could be that their jobs do not provide paid time off, leading to decreased income when parents' children get sick. But this income volatility puts families in really tough positions. Each month, families are often forced to make hard decisions to survive, decisions about paying utility bills or purchasing more costly, healthy foods. paying co-pays for their own medication versus paying their rent. And the bottom line is that neither the labor market nor the social safety net in the US is sufficient to keep families out of poverty. More is needed. 

Increasingly, we also know that economic and material hardship are significant predictors of child welfare involvement. This shows up as neglect often in the child welfare system. penalizing families for not having the means or resources necessary to make up for these market failures or government shortcomings. This type of neglect suggests that addressing inadequate economic resources should be one of the core set of tools for families when aiming to prevent child welfare involvement and out-of-home placement. So guaranteed income has emerged as an evidence-informed strategy to alleviate some of the burden that families bear as a result of the market failures and safety net shortcomings.”

Guaranteed income definition.

10:42-10:49 – Luke – Blake, what is the Madison Forward Fund and what does it hope to change or accomplish?

10:50-15:56 – Blake Roberts Crall – The Madison Forward Fund is a research program that piloted the impacts of guaranteed income on the lives of low-income people. 

• Madison Forward Fund
• Mayors for a Guaranteed Income
• Institute for Research on Poverty
• Center for Guaranteed Income Research

15:57-17:46 – Luke – It’s important to acknowledge the stigma and mistrust around some of our safety net systems as it has led to billions of dollars left on the table as reported by Matthew Desmond and others recently. If people are embarrassed to access or distrustful of anti-poverty programs, then they aren’t achieving their objectives. 

• Poverty, by America – Matthew Desmond

17:47-25:06 - Allison – Recurring, unconditional and unrestricted. Recipients can trust that it will be available to them during the period that it has been promised compared to many conditional and restricted public benefits. 

Participants spend the money on basic needs.

Guaranteed income also offers opportunities for economic mobility.

Impacts of pandemic on economic stability.

19,000 participants involved in these programs that are being researched by CGIR.

Positive impacts on people’s economic stability and mobility.

• Stanford Basic Income Lab
• Stockton Economic Empowerment Demonstration
• Center for Guaranteed Income Research
• American Rescue Plan Act funding Guaranteed Income programs

25:07-26:58 - Luke – Poverty does not equal neglect; however, families living in poverty are much more likely to be investigated by Child Protective Services. So guaranteed income may reduce the likelihood that a family is investigated by CPS. 

How does GI align with our Strong Families, Thriving Children, Connected Communities initiative?

• The Bridge Project – Zilber Family Foundation 

26:59-32:01 - Blake – While Guaranteed Income is not a silver bullet, it can improve economic stability and social connections.

Positive impacts on people’s mental health and stress levels. GI allows participants to provide more for their kids, pay rent, cover child care costs. Participant stories are available on the Madison Forward Fund website. 

When caregivers can meet their own needs, they can show up better for their kids.

• Participant Stories – Madison Forward Fund

32:02-32:55 – Luke – People’s stories to illustrate the data is always helpful and powerful. Same question to Allison.

32:56-39:38 - Allison – How might guaranteed income be a child welfare intervention? Labor market and social safety net are inadequate to help families meet their basic needs for too many families. Guaranteed income assumes that families know best how to care for their children.

New York child welfare pilot. Los Angeles County pilot with youth that have aged out of child care.

• New York State Direct Cash Transfer Research Pilot
• Breathe: Los Angeles County’s Guaranteed Income Program

39:39-40:55 – Luke – How might we implement these models into our communities?

40:56-45:57 – Blake – The mechanics and administration of guaranteed income programs are not complicated. There is more and more data improving the evidence base and showing its effectiveness. We need to do more basic education about what guaranteed income is and what it can accomplish. GI is a policy choice that will need to be made to help pay for it. 

45:58-47:46 - Luke – Education and mental model shifts will be important to policy and funding changes that support guaranteed income programs. How might guaranteed income programs lead to cost savings if it leads to a reduction in child welfare spending?

47:47-50:20 - Allison – Research on guaranteed income is nascent. There is a growing body of evidence. Thinking more about cost-benefit analysis. The Child Tax Credit expansion during COVID, which mirrors a guaranteed income program, cut the child poverty rate in half. 

• The Anti-Poverty Effects of the Expanded Child Tax Credit – Brookings 

50:21-50:31 - Luke – When we have the will, our policies can have a profound impact.

50:32-52:25 - Blake – Many states have implemented a state child tax credit. We don’t have that here in Wisconsin. Wisconsin Farmers Union has interest in guaranteed income to support agricultural communities in the state. 

• Wisconsin Governor’s Health Equity Council Report
• Wisconsin Farmers Union

52:26-52:50 - Luke Waldo – Closing and Gratitude 

52:51-52:57 - Allison – Thank you.

52:58-53:08 – Blake – Thank you.

53:09-56:34 - Luke Waldo - 3 Key Takeaways 

1. “People are working hard, and yet they still can’t make ends meet.” 75 years ago, we didn’t look down on people who were impacted by polio, we came together as a society to keep our kids safe by creating a solution to prevent it. How might we change the conditions today for the working poor as we did for families and communities generations ago so that they can thrive? 
2. “Think about the freedom of choice, trust, and self-determination as a way of bringing some trust back to our social safety net and welfare systems.”  As Blake and Dr. Thompson shared, programs like guaranteed income that are predictable and unconditional, parents and caregivers have shown us that they not only know what’s best for their kids, they do what’s best for their kids by investing in their basic needs like food, housing, childcare, and education. 
3. “There’s a way to address poverty, it’s about the will.” Whether it’s through expanded Child Tax Credits that have shown to cut childhood poverty in half in a single year, or through increased minimum wage or guaranteed income programs, there are policy and systems changes that have proven to combat poverty and improve family economic stability and mobility. So how might we see the systemic issues of family poverty as we did with our public health crises from a century ago, so that the conditions might change for overloaded families through effective Family Prosperity policies and systems changes?

Join the conversation and connect with us!

• Visit our podcast page on our ICFW website to learn more about the experts you hear in this series.
• Subscribe, rate our show and leave feedback in the comments section.
• Sign up for our Strong Families, Thriving Children, Connected Communities initiative and our quarterly newsletter.
• Follow the Institute for Child and Family Well-being on Facebook, Instagram and LinkedIn.
• Email Luke Waldo at [email protected] to share how you are changing the conditions so that children and families can thrive.

Host: Luke Waldo

Experts:

• Jennifer Jones – Prevent Child Abuse America

:05-:14 - Jennifer Jones – “We must disrupt the status quo and advance equitable access to opportunities and environments that all families need to thrive.”

:22–4:35 – Luke Waldo – Welcome, Opening, and Jennifer Jones’ bio.

39,325 reports of suspected child neglect were made to Wisconsin Child Protective Services. In other words, every single day, 108 people across Wisconsin felt worried enough about a child to take the time to report them with the belief that they or their family would receive some support or intervention to ensure that the child was safe and well. Of those nearly 40,000 reports, 88% were unsubstantiated for maltreatment. In fact, over 26,000 or two out of every three reports of neglect were screened out, which means that they don't receive any form of service or response to the concerns that the person that reported them had for them in the first place. These are often reports of struggles with economic insecurity, as 85% of families investigated by child protective services are living at or below 200% of the federal poverty line. 

So the question becomes, how might we create a better alternative to reporting overloaded families to child protective services so that they receive the targeted support and resources that they need to thrive? How might we empower teachers, police officers, social workers, doctors, and nurses who are on the front lines of supporting overloaded families to build trust through referrals and connections to prevention services and resources, rather than suspicion through reports to Child Protective Services?

4:36-4:44 – Jennifer Jones – Thank you for the invitation to join the pod again.

4:45-4:56 – Luke - Why is a Primary Prevention System needed today in the US?

4:57-11:25 – Jennifer – Why we need a Primary Prevention System in the US. 

In 2022 over 3 million children were investigated for child abuse or neglect in this country, and of those children, over 550,000 were considered victims of child abuse and neglect, and 74% of those were for neglect. Almost 40% of all children in this country are subjected to a child welfare investigation. For white kids, it's 28% and for black kids, it's significantly higher, at 53% so over half of black children in this country experience a child welfare investigation before they are 18. 

Families lacking income and resources for basic needs are often referred to the child welfare system for neglect, and we know that this disproportionately impacts black and indigenous families. We know that too many families are being subjected to harmful investigations. We know that too many families are being separated due to a range of things that could be addressed earlier, like poverty. There's great disproportionality, especially for black children and families, and overall, there is too little investment in prevention in this country.

We don't just want to prevent kids and families from coming to the attention of our nation's child welfare system. We want to reach them before they are in crisis, so they have what they need when they need it in the communities in which they live. We want to ensure that all children and families are living a purposeful and happy life with hope for the future. That is the heart and the foundation of our new theory of change. 

We believe that we need a drastically different approach to supporting families, ensuring what they have to what they need to be happy, healthy and economically secure. We must change how our society values and cares for all children and families. And in doing this, we will write the next chapter of primary prevention in this country.

• A Theory of Change for Primary Prevention in the US – Prevent Child Abuse America

11:26-11:58 - Luke – What so many families who are feeling overloaded by the weight of poverty or social isolation need is someone to lessen that load. So how might a primary prevention ecosystem do that? What does Prevent Child Abuse America hope to change or accomplish with this theory of change?

11:59-16:33 – Jennifer Jones – What the PCAA Theory of Change for a Primary Prevention System aspires to accomplish, its North Star, and its process.

• Building a Shared Understanding and Shifting Mindsets
• Policies and Practices
• Collective Responsibility

Theory of Change principles and 5 strategies.

• Transform the narrative
• Center families
• Build evidence and advocate
• Activate adaptive action
• Grow human and financial capacity

16:34-17:44 – Luke – How might we implement the Theory of Change?

17:45-21:05 – Jennifer – It creates a Primary Prevention strategy for everyone across the country. Plug and Play Theory of Change. The flexibility for each community is critical as this is not a “one size fits all” solution. Unify and align a diverse group of actors. 

CHSA has adopted the North Star, which shows the collective energy.

• Children’s Home Society of America
• PCAA Theory of Change – Plug and Play

21:06-21:17 - Luke – Thank you, Jennifer.

21:18-22:09 – Jennifer – Thank you, Luke.

22:10-24:02 - Luke – 3 Key Takeaways.

1. Many of the pieces already exist for a Primary Prevention Ecosystem, but they are not yet aligned or comprehensive. So how might we work together across primary prevention programs such as Home Visiting, Family Resource Centers economic and concrete support programs with systems like housing, early education, and healthcare to create greater alignment and shared language? As Jennifer shared, if this alignment were to create a comprehensive Ecosystem and Prevent Child Abuse America were to achieve its goal, we could divert 50 million kids over the next 25 years from CPS and keep them with their families who would have what they need to thrive.
2. Center families in the decision-making process. More specifically, how might we learn from families who have benefitted from prevention services and resources so that they didn’t have to experience deeper end systems like Child Protective Services? As we will hear throughout this season, we must move beyond transactional relationships with people with lived experience, and move into authentic trust and power-sharing that leads to better informed decision-making.
3. Individuals and organizations that haven’t seen themselves as contributing to child maltreatment prevention need to be a part of this prevention ecosystem. I have been inspired by the participation of housing and anti-poverty advocates, educators, and police officers in our Strong Families, Thriving Children, Connected Communities initiative as they see their role and potential partnerships that may lead to preventing child neglect and family separation. After today’s conversation with Jennifer, I hope that many more of you will join us so that all children and families may live a purposeful and happy life with hope for the future.

24:08-25:32 - Luke – Closing Credits

Join the conversation and connect with us!

• Visit our podcast page on our ICFW website to learn more about the experts you hear in this series.
• Subscribe, rate our show and leave feedback in the comments section.
• Sign up for our Strong Families, Thriving Children, Connected Communities initiative and our quarterly newsletter.
• Follow the Institute for Child and Family Well-being on Facebook, Instagram and LinkedIn.
• Email Luke Waldo at [email protected] to share how you are changing the conditions so that children and families can thrive.

Over the past 30 years, we have seen a 60% decline in physical and sexual abuse of children across the United States. At the same time, we have only seen a 10% decline in child neglect.  We have also seen poverty remain stubbornly persistent while learning that 85% of families investigated by the Child Protective Services live at or below 200% of the federal poverty line. As we have learned over these years about the positive impacts of social connections on our well-being and ability to manage stress and crises, we have also seen social isolation grow across our country.

These realities have motivated us over the past three years of our Strong Families, Thriving Children, Connected Communities initiative and the first two seasons of this podcast series to build a shared understanding of neglect, its underlying roots causes, and the social and systemic critical pathways we may take to advance promising solutions.  

This year and this season of the podcast, we confront these complex realities where, too often, overloaded families are expected to beat the odds that have been stacked against them; and we explore how we might change the conditions so that we improve the odds for children and families to thrive.

To do that, we must ask, how might we transform our systems, create a prevention ecosystem, and center families as the experts they are and the changemakers they should be?

And why now?  

Today’s episode included the following speakers (in the order they appear):

Host: Luke Waldo

Experts:

• Jennifer Jones – Prevent Child Abuse America
• Kate Luster – Rock County Department of Human Services
• Allison Thompson – Center for Guaranteed Income Research
• Samantha Copus – Jefferson County Parents Supporting Parents
• Blake Roberts Crall – Madison Forward Fund
• Bryan Samuels – Chapin Hall
• Anthony Barrows – Network of Intersectional Professionals
• Marlo Nash – Children’s Home Society of America
• Laura Radel – US Department of Health and Human Services
• Jaclyn Gilstrap – A Visual Approach
• Norma Hatfield – Generations United
• Andry Sweet, CEO, Children's Home Society of Florida
• Ramona Denby-Brinson – University of North Carolina School of Social Work

:00–2:33 - Luke Waldo 

Over the past 30 years, we have seen a 60% decline in physical and sexual abuse of children across the United States. At the same time, we have only seen a 10% decline in child neglect.  We have also seen poverty remain stubbornly persistent while learning that 85% of families investigated by the Child Protective Services live at or below 200% of the federal poverty line. As we have learned over these years about the positive impacts of social connections on our well-being and ability to manage stress and crises, we have also seen social isolation grow across our country.

These realities have motivated us over the past three years of our Strong Families, Thriving Children, Connected Communities initiative and the first two seasons of this podcast series to build a shared understanding of neglect, its underlying roots causes, and the social and systemic critical pathways we may take to advance promising solutions. 

This year and this season of the podcast, we confront these complex realities where, too often, overloaded families are expected to beat the odds that have been stacked against them; and we explore how we might change the conditions so that we improve the odds for children and families to thrive.

To do that, we must ask, how might we transform our systems, create a prevention ecosystem, and center families as the experts they are and the changemakers they should be?

And why now? 

• Strong Families, Thriving Children, Connected Communities Initiative

2:34-7:29 – Jennifer Jones

In 2022, over 3 million children were investigated for child maltreatment. There is great disproportionality for Black children as 50% will be investigated in their childhood by the child welfare system. We invest too little in prevention.

We know that child welfare reform is happening across the country to provide better outcomes for children and families already in the system or entering today. But we also know that we have to move further upstream.

We also know that social connectedness and Positive Childhood Experiences (PCEs) are essential to long-term well-being. So we don’t want to just prevent bad things from happening, we want to promote PCEs.

• Positive Childhood Experiences – Jennifer Jones

We need to address the context within which children and families live rather than just focusing on the individual challenges. We need to address the systemic issues.

7:30-8:27 – Kate Luster

“In Rock County, about 22% of our families in in involved in child welfare services are Black African-American families, whereas only 7% of our county population is represented by Black families. And so we have overrepresentation at sort of every step of every level of decision making within the child welfare continuum, reports to access screened-in reports, investigations, separations, and out of home placements, et cetera. So we know we are we're not alone in that. Those are statistics that show up ah across the state and across the country. And we feel committed to prioritizing addressing those disparities in our work moving forward.”

8:28-10:06 - Allison Thompson

One in eight Americans live in poverty. And even with a full-time job, most families working minimum wage jobs still can't meet their basic needs. In fact, across many US cities, a parent of two children making the minimum wage would need to work between two to four minimum wage jobs just to make ends meet without benefits. And even with benefits, a parent working a full-time minimum wage job with two children typically experiences a $3,000 to $5,000 gap each month between their basic cost of living and their income and benefits.

To make matters worse, nearly half of all families with annual incomes of less than $25,000 a year also experience pretty significant income volatility, which means that their income each month is prone to both rapid and unpredictable change.

Each month, families are often forced to make hard decisions to survive, decisions about paying utility bills or purchasing more costly, healthy foods. paying co-pays for their own medication versus paying their rent. And the bottom line is that neither the labor market nor the social safety net in the US is sufficient to keep families out of poverty. More is needed. 

10:07-10:30 – Samantha Copus 

“It’s the child welfare system, not the parent welfare system. Who’s going to be looking after these parents who are looking out for their children?”

10:31-11:11 - Allison Thompson

Increasingly, we also know that economic and material hardship are significant predictors of child welfare involvement. This shows up as neglect often in the child welfare system. penalizing families for not having the means or resources necessary to make up for these market failures or government shortcomings. This type of neglect suggests that addressing inadequate economic resources should be one of the core set of tools for families when aiming to prevent child welfare involvement and out-of-home placement. So guaranteed income has emerged as an evidence-informed strategy to alleviate some of the burden that families bear as a result of the market failures and safety net shortcomings.”

11:13-12:18 - Blake Roberts Crall 

“And I really believe that our social safety net in this country plays a huge, huge role in helping to ensure financial security for our families and their well-being. So that's a really important part of our social infrastructure that we need, um and it does it does a lot for families and for children. And at the same time, there's still so much more to do because there are families that are still struggling. We know that people are not able to make ends meet. 

And I think that there's an opportunity to look at our social safety net and figure out ways that we can make it better, make it more accessible, more inclusive, and provide more resources to families. It seems pretty crazy to me that you can be working in this country full time or working more than full time and still not be able to pay all of your bills and still to be struggling financially. The term working poor, we hear that a lot. That's literally people are working, but still under that poverty line. So for me, there's a lot of opportunity to be doing something different and really to think about how can we build systems of care and well-being for everyone. And I think guaranteed income or basic income is one possible tool that we can add in our toolbox.”

• What is Guaranteed Income? – Madison Forward Fund

12:19-13:16 - Jennifer Jones 

The Theory of Change shifts to building and aligning a prevention ecosystem to create the conditions so all children and families can thrive. We want them to have what they need, when they need it, in the places where they need it. 

• Theory of Change for Primary Prevention in the United States – Prevent Child Abuse America

13:17-14:34 – Bryan Samuels

People come upon good ideas, they spend as much time as they can, but then often have to move on. After George Floyd’s murder, there was a moment where real change was demanded around equity for our communities. So Chapin Hall began focusing on how authentic systems transformation through community engagement occurs.

• System Transformation through Community Leadership – Chapin Hall

14:36-15:30 - Luke Waldo 

Why is the authentic integration of Lived Experience into our systems and organizations’ decision-making and power-sharing needed today? 

15:32-15:46 - Anthony Barrows

“I’ve been on the inside of these systems. I’ve seen how they can positively transform people’s lives when they work and chew up and spit out people when they don’t work.”

15:47-15:55 - Samantha Copus

“The single most frustrating thing is screaming and feeling like no one can hear you.” 

15:57-16:58 – Marlo Nash 

The current transactional state of Lived Experience in our systems practices. We need to move away from this, and yet there isn’t a guidebook or crystal-clear path.

16:59-17:41 - Laura Radel

“But there is a lot of excitement in many of the groups around the expansion of authentic engagement. I think that was a key theme that was coming out. However, folks are struggling within their organizations about making a true culture shift, and moving from a rallying cry to real action, more upstream in our processes and activities, and moving from storytelling and commenting mostly on the back end and on tentative decisions that our organizations have already started to make instead of engaging folks early and often, and with true power-sharing from the beginning.”

17:42-18:43 – Jaclyn Gilstrap 

How do we address the harm when it happens, not if it happens? How do we do this for real, for real? People with lived experience confront many barriers, so how do we address this? 

18:44-19:27 – Norma Hatfield 

True collaboration requires that we work together from the beginning of a process all the way until we are done building something together. House metaphor. 

19:28-19:54 – Andry Sweet 

Co-creation requires that we really listen.

19:55-20:48 

Dean Ramona Denby-Brinson – Lived experience is a way of knowing. Moving away from the transactional nature of these relationships. We want the same for our families – health, happiness, and hope.

20:49-21:04 - Anthony Barrows 

Who isn’t being listened to in your work?

21:05-21:36 - Marlo Nash 

People with lived experience are willing to share their stories, often traumatic, but also their expertise to make changes that will improve outcomes for children and families now and for future generations.

21:39-21:54 - Luke Waldo – Closing and Gratitude 

21:56-23:00 Luke Waldo - 3 Key Takeaways 

1. We don't want to only prevent the bad things from happening. We need to promote and grow the good things.
2. How might systems change themselves in order to respond to the needs of a diverse population of families that they serve?
3. How do we address the harm that we've caused, and how do we do this for real, for real. How do we have the humility and the accountability to address the harm that has been caused, that families that we serve have been telling us, often yelling, yet unheard for too long.

23:07-24:30 - Luke Waldo – Closing Credits

Join the conversation and connect with us!

• Visit our podcast page on our ICFW website to learn more about the experts you hear in this series.
• Subscribe, rate our show and leave feedback in the comments section.
• Sign up for our Strong Families, Thriving Children, Connected Communities initiative and our quarterly newsletter.
• Follow the Institute for Child and Family Well-being on Facebook, Instagram and LinkedIn.
• Email Luke Waldo at [email protected] to share how you are changing the conditions so that children and families can thrive.

:06-1:03 – Luke Waldo - Over the past 30 years, we have seen a 60% decline in physical and sexual abuse of children across the United States. We should celebrate this achievement that came from building a shared understanding of the challenge and targeting solutions through prevention and early intervention. Over those same 30 years, we have only seen a 10% decline in child neglect while poverty has remained stubbornly persistent and social isolation has grown.

How might we change these conditions that overload families with stress and make them vulnerable to child neglect and family separation?

In season 1, we set out to build a shared understanding of neglect and its underlying root causes.

In season 2, we confronted complex systemic challenges that overload families, and the Critical Pathways that have shown promise in advancing solutions. 

Now, how might we transform our systems, create a prevention ecosystem, and center families as the experts they are and the decision-makers they should be?

1:04-1:18 – Jennifer Jones – “Too many families are being subjected to harmful child welfare investigations. Too many families are being separated due to a wide range of things that, if we addressed them before they were in crisis, things like poverty.”

1:20-1:28 – Allison Thompson – “A neglect report is lack of supervision, or deplorable housing, or insufficient food, can all be thought of as proxies for poverty.”

1:36-1:48 - Blake Roberts Crall – “People are working hard, and yet they still can’t make ends meet. Families are still struggling, and a lot of that labor is unrecognized in the rest of our social safety net.” 

1:48-2:00 – Samantha Copus - “It’s the child welfare system, right? It’s not the parent welfare system. Who’s looking out for these parents who are going to be looking out for these children? And that’s not to take away from the good intentions of the professionals of the system.”

2:01-2:06 – Kate Luster – “It’s not about staff doing things wrong, it was really about how we’ve implemented the system's mandates.”

2:07-2:18 - Anthony Barrows - “You name the system, and I’ve probably been on the inside of it. And I’ve seen how those systems can positively transform people’s lives when they work well and how they can chew people up and spit them out when they don’t.”

2:19-2:25 – Samantha Copus - “Parents aren’t wrong about how they feel when they’re in the system. The single most frustrating piece is feeling like you’re screaming and no one can hear you.”

2:26-2:34 - Jennifer Jones - “We must disrupt the status quo and advance equitable access to opportunities and environments that all families need to thrive.” 

2:35-2:40 - Jaclyn Gilstrap – “We love talking about it. We are good talking about it, but how do we do this for real, for real?”

2:41-2:48 - Bryan Samuels - “Is the goal you’re trying to get engagement, or is it ownership? And if you’re thinking about ownership, then you need to go the extra mile.”

2:49-3:00 – Marlo Nash – “We’ve gotta be communicating with one another. We have to create the answers. To do that, you have to have spaces and containers that are safe where you can have those conversations.”

3:01-3:11 – Kate Luster – “As we’ve partnered with parents in new ways, we’ve learned the value and importance of acknowledging in formal ways the harm that’s been done.”

3:12-3:25 – Bryan Samuels - “Sometimes we rely too much on champions, that if you want community ownership, you gotta move beyond the people who will say the right thing and make sure you have the people around the table that will defend the right thing.”

3:26-3:36 - Blake Roberts Crall – “Think about the freedom of choice, trust, and self-determination as a way of bringing some trust back to our social safety net and welfare systems.”

3:37-3:57 - Ramona Denby-Brinson - “Lived experience is a way of knowing and we should recognize it for what it is. It’s one of the most powerful ways that we know, and that we can serve our families and our communities. And moving away from that transactional approach, we have to show up in very different ways. First and foremost, we show up with respect.”

3:58-4:02 – Samantha Copus - “Maybe that’s the biggest goal is changing the relationships between families and child welfare.”

4:03-4:14 – Jennifer Jones – “The ecosystem is reliant on a diverse array of actors working in this collective and unified way to achieve our aspirational outcomes and our north star.”

4:18-5:03 – Luke Waldo - Join me, Luke Waldo, for season 3 of Overloaded: Understanding Neglect, where we confront these complex realities where, too often, overloaded families are expected to beat the odds that have been stacked against them. In this season, we explore how we might change the conditions so that we improve the odds for children and families to thrive. Through conversations with national and local experts and changemakers, we dive into the innovative ideas that aspire to transform our systems through community leadership, build an aligned and comprehensive primary prevention ecosystem, and unlock the power of lived experience through true collaboration.

We believe neglect is preventable. Join us on Wednesday, January 8th when we premiere season 3 wherever you listen to your podcasts. 

Host: Luke Waldo

Experts:

• Josh Mersky – Co-Director of the Institute for Child and Family Well-being, Professor at UW-Milwaukee’s Helen Bader School of Social Welfare

:00-:36 – Josh Mersky - If we only focus on poor families, we’re going to miss opportunities to prevent a lot of maltreatment cases. So I think the FRCs have a lot of prevention capacity because they reach a lot of people from all walks of life and because they offer an array of services that can be tailored to match the amount of support that each family needs.”

:37-4:15 – Luke Waldo – Opening and Welcome

4:16-4:18 – Josh Mersky – Hello

4:18-4:29 – Luke – Where did your journey studying resilience and family protective factors begin, and where has it led?

4:30-:10:47 Josh – In the early stages of his professional career before going back to school. Worked in human service capacities with youth who had adverse experiences. This experience led to relationships with children and families that he served and his colleagues. At UW-Madison, he worked on the Chicago Longitudinal Study that studied the Child-Parent Centers. He learned that these programs had a positive impact on short-term and long-term educational, social-emotional, and child maltreatment outcomes. Why? They invest in enriched supports for families like home economics for parents, community outreach. This is a two-generation approach in which they work with both parents and children. They found that parents were more involved in the child’s school and education, and there was less stress in the home. Over the last two decades, he has focused on the causes of child adversity and maltreatment and the programs that can support families and build resilience.

• Chicago Longitudinal Study
• Dr. Arthur Reynolds
• Chicago Child-Parent Centers

10:48-12:05 - Luke – What have you learned about the impact of child neglect and, conversely, how does social connectedness help to reduce the risk of neglect or mitigate its effects?

12:06-17:34 - Josh – We have known now for a long time that neglect can have adverse impacts on child development. There is good research that neglect can lead to later-life violence at similar rates as abuse. Neglect does not get the same attention as child abuse. Neglect is strongly correlated with poverty, which makes it difficult to separate the two. We need to design effective programs to address neglect as neglect is often neglected by policymakers and funders. Neglect is most likely to occur where there is an absence of strong social connectedness, therefore, investing in and strengthening social connectedness in the home, school, and community is an effective preventative approach to neglect.

• Harry Harlow – Experiments on attachment and neglect

17:35-17:51 – Luke - What does social connectedness look like and how does it impact the individual and family?

17:52-24:07 - Josh – Social connectedness as an ecology shows that our closest environments are the most important – family, friends, and peers. We can expand beyond those closest relationships – neighborhood, faith communities – to explain how we function. How our environments are structured has a significant impact on our well-being. Social determinants of health are influential. Promotive factors versus protective factors. For children who have experienced adversity, protective factors are particularly important. Story about his grandmother and their close relationship. A grandparent can be a buffer for children who have experienced homelessness, the loss of a parent, or neglect, which can promote resilience in that child. 

• Social Ecological Model - Unicef
• Social Determinants of Health
• Promotive and Protective Factors – Center for the Study of Social Policy

24:08-26:14 - Luke - What do FRCs promote or strengthen that has or may have the greatest impact on reductions in child maltreatment and in keeping families together?

26:15-32:33 - Josh – Family Resource Centers have some common elements. They are universal, so all families can benefit from FRCs. FRCs are designed to be comprehensive, so they provide many different services like parenting groups, home visiting, or development assessments. FRCs operate at a community level where they engage and connect community members and resources. At the Parenting Place in LaCrosse, they host a Children’s Festival that brings out many people from the community. Why do FRCs reduce the risk of neglect? Progressive universalism or targeted universalism is when you balance equality of access with equity of resource distribution. The Prevention Paradox illustrates this idea that the majority of incidents of maltreatment occur in families of moderate risk, so we need to be cautious about solely focusing on those living in poverty or considered to be “at-risk”. 

• Child Abuse and Neglect Prevention Board (CANPB)
• Parenting Place

32:34-33:01 – Luke - What have you learned from your research on Family Resource Centers?

33:02-39:03 - Josh – The Strong and Stable Families project is funded by the CANPB and works with 18 FRCs across the state. The project gathers data from families that receive services from FRCs and families that do not. What have they learned? FRC participants are mostly above the poverty line, however, most are lower-SES. They tend to have more challenges than the general population. They are more likely to have employment, housing, and healthcare challenges. They also reported many positive Adult Experiences, which include protective factors such as social connectedness. They use the Protective Factors Survey to measure those protective factors. FRC participants have been shown to have similar levels of protective factors such as social connectedness, however, they appear to have less concrete supports such as stable income, housing, etc. compared to the general population. 

• The Strong and Stable Families project
• Protective Factors Survey – FRIENDS National Center for Community-Based Child Abuse Prevention

39:04-39:32 - Luke - What have you seen as barriers to applying this evidence/research in systems? And how might we more effectively translate research and evidence into policies and practices?

39:33-43:37 - Josh – Inertia is a barrier as systems change moves slowly or the status quo reigns. Prevention is difficult to demonstrate the outcomes or ROI to policymakers compared to intervention. If we can show that FRCs serve as a hub that connects to other services and supports, we might see greater investment and buy-in. Hello, Baby is a universal program delivered to all families with a newborn. 

• Hello Baby

43:38-44:08 - Luke – What makes you optimistic about the future of this work?

44:09-47:18 - Josh – There is growing recognition that child welfare systems were not designed to provide services to families, and therefore there is a need to invest more in prevention services to get further upstream. This has led to Family First Prevention Services Act, which has already begun investing more in mental health, home visiting, and prevention programs to families that may be at risk of child maltreatment. Family Resource Centers  across the state are critical to their communities.

• Eau Claire FRC
• St. Croix Valley FRC
• Marathon County FRC
• Family and Childcare Resources of Northeastern Wisconsin - Brown County FRC
• Parenting Place – Lacrosse FRC
• Indian Community School

47:19-48:10 – Luke - Before we let you go, can you share a book or author that shaped or represents your thinking around your work? 

48:11-49:59 - Josh – Promoting early literacy is so important as it improves attachment between children and their caregivers. Invest in your local libraries and early literacy programs.

50:00-50:24 - Luke – Dea Wright and the Office for Early Childhood Initiatives is going to be a big fan, Josh. 

• Office of Early Childhood Initiatives – City of Milwaukee

50:25-50:45 - Josh – Josh will be meeting with Dea to discuss some of their initiatives promoting reading to children in non-professional spaces such as barber shops.

50:46-51:19 – Luke - Thank you, Josh!

51:20-51:34 – Josh – Thank you, Luke!

51:35-56:00 - Luke – 3 Key Takeaways

56:01-57:05 – Luke – Closing Credits

Join the conversation and connect with us!

• Visit our podcast page on our ICFW website to learn more about the experts you hear in this series.
• Subscribe, rate our show and leave feedback in the comments section.
• Sign up for our Strong Families, Thriving Children, Connected Communities initiative and our quarterly newsletter.
• Follow the Institute for Child and Family Well-being on Facebook, Instagram and LinkedIn.

Host: Luke Waldo

Experts:

• Julie Ahnen – Dane County HHS
• Laura Glaub – Madison Metro School District
• Marc Seidl – Brown County HHS

:00-:16 – Julie Ahnen “Do the best you can until you know better. And then when you know better, do better.”

:20-3:50 – Luke Waldo – Opening and Welcome

• Child Protective Services Reports Dashboard - Wisconsin Department of Children and Families

3:51-4:26 – Luke - I’d like to begin our conversation by learning more about you and your journeys with mandated reporting, community collaboration, and systems and service failures on children and families. Welcome, Julie.

4:27-9:22– Julie Ahnen – Over a 25 year career in child welfare, she acknowledges that she has had some blind spots with mandated reporting. In the past 15 years in Dane County, they have recognized the disproportionality that exists in our child welfare system. “We don’t have control over who comes through the front door.” Center for the Study of Social Policy webinar on Implicit Bias and Structural Racism led her team to researching changes in mandated reporting to mandated supporting in places like New York. The mantra has been for decades “see something, say something”, but the last two and a half years since the murder of George Floyd has led to a shift. People like Dorothy Roberts have been articulating these messages of change for decades. 

• Exploring Implicit Bias in Child Welfare – Center for the Study of Social Policy
• Shattered Bonds: The Color of Child Welfare – Dorothy Roberts
• What Does it Mean to Abolish the Child Welfare System as We Know It? - CSSP

9:23-10:01 - Luke – Dorothy Roberts is mentioned frequently in this podcast. Marc, what has your journey looked like?

10:02-14:17 – Marc Seidl – Over the past 15 years as part of the child welfare system, he too has voiced the mantra of reporting whenever you have a concern for a child. However, he now recognizes that the data shows that this has resulted in “casting an incredibly wide net that is entangling families needlessly” in the system. Most of those families don’t meet the maltreatment standards, so they don’t receive services that they truly need as CPS is not built to do that for families that don’t enter the system. In Brown County, of the 4,000 reports that they receive each year, 73% are screened out, yet those reports live on for those families. This reality has led to a real passion to addressing our mandated reporting process to improve outcomes for families.

• Child Welfare Reports and Dashboards – Wisconsin DCF
• Putting Families First Dashboard – Racial and Ethnic Disparities - DCF

14:18-15:41 - Luke – Thank you, Marc, for sharing those startling statistics in which 3,000 of the 4,000 families that are reported to Brown County CPS never reach the system.

15:42-16:21 - Marc – Of those 1000 or so families that are screened in, only 6% or so are substantiated for maltreatment. “So there is this reverse funnel” where only a few families actually have committed maltreatment while the majority of families coming to the attention of the child welfare system have not.

16:22-16:44 – Luke – So based on my math, only 60 families ultimately enter the child welfare system due to substantiated maltreatment of the 4,000 initial reports?

16:45-17:28 - Marc – Ultimately, around 140 families entered the Brown County child welfare system of the 4,000 reports that were made. 

17:29-17:35 - Luke – Laura, can you share your journey?

17:36-23:30 – Laura Glaub – Her journey starts once she joined a school district. As a White woman, she didn’t experience the child welfare system on the other side of mandated reporting. As an AmeriCorps member, she always consulted with her students and families so that she could support them rather than report them. As a social worker, she looks to collaborate with families even though the policies often encourage her to call CPS whenever there is doubt. Laura tells a story about how she handled an incident when a student disclosed an allegation of abuse to her. She contacted the parent to work collaboratively with the parent in reporting with her. Laura has worked more collaboratively with partners like Julie and Dane County HHS since the pandemic to improve outcomes like chronic absenteeism for children and families. 

• AmeriCorps

23:31-25:00 – Luke – How does mandated reporting impact overloaded families and our workforce? 

25:01-30:15 – Julie – The history of our child welfare laws have targeted Black and minority families starting with AFDC. Family separation of Black and Native families has been deeply rooted in our history. The Flemming Rule came along in the 1960s that led to an increase in more families coming into the child welfare system. Then CAPTA led to an even greater increase due to fear from mandated reporters as they didn’t want to be penalized for not reporting. Reporters have historically wanted to remain anonymous, and would get angry if they were discovered by the family that they reported. This creates an adversarial dynamic rather than one of collaboration and trust, which overloaded families need to overcome their challenges. Now, Dane County is shifting more towards collaborating with families to build that trust, which is empowering staff. 

• Aid to Families with Dependent Children (AFDC)
• Flemming Rule
• The Child Abuse Prevention and Treatment Act(CAPTA)

30:16-30:24 – Luke – What does AFDC stand for?

30:25-30:43 - Julie – Aid to Families with Dependent Children (AFDC) is now known as TANF.

30:44-31:46 - Luke – The consequences for mandated reporting often lead to a lack of engagement and support from our community and our most overloaded families. There is often a lack of accountability to overloaded families who need support, but instead are reported to CPS.

31:47-35:18 - Marc – We got into this work because we want to help families. There has been a shift from investigating families like law enforcement to conducting assessments, which started with the alternative response pilot to better understand and support families that are overloaded. Access is critical as it is the front door to the child welfare system, so the assessment process should feel like an interview to better understand what is really happening in families’ lives. Trust is very difficult when our role is seen as intruding in their lives and not providing the support they need. We “need to bridge that gap (of trust) first.”

• Alternative Response

35:19-35:22 - Luke – Laura, how does mandated reporting impact families and school staff?

35:23-37:28 - Laura – “When I think of mandated reporting, I think of stressful and punitive interactions. When I make a report, I know that it will not be neutral as my experience influences my decision.” Families are doing the best for their kids. They are navigating systems that have harmed them.

37:29-39:24 - Julie – There is a level of fear in the community of mandated reporters and child welfare professionals because they know that they can interview their children without their presence and have the authority to separate their families. This dynamic makes it difficult to build trust.

39:25-39:43 - Luke – What is not working that is leading to overloaded families being reported to CPS?

39:44-42:30 - Marc – Wendy Henderson, DCF Administrator, shared recently that 15 years ago around 40% of all child maltreatment substantiations were due to neglect. That number is now 70%. That coupled with 15 years ago had 80 out of 100 families that lived in poverty were supported by TANF whereas now that number is 21 out of 100 families. If Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs is not met, the basic needs of an individual or family, then all the other needs are more difficult to focus on and meet. How does a low-paying job pay for the high costs of childcare? If economic instability wasn’t an issue, would we see as much substance abuse and mental health issues? 

• Few Families Receive the TANF Cash Assistance They’re Eligible For – Urban Institute
• Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs

42:31-43:18 - Luke – We may need to invite you back, Marc, to join our conversations around economic stability. Laura?

• ICFW Economic Stability Critical Pathway

43:19-45:15 - Laura – The new Race to Equity report came out, which shows that it is very difficult to be Black in this state. Wisconsin also has many non-profits, but it is too often difficult for families to get what they actually need. It’s easier to get a turkey or backpack than the services or resources that would help families overcome the systemic challenges that overload them.

• Race to Equity report

45:16-47:04 - Luke – What is the state of community collaboration in your community?

• ICFW Community Collaboration Critical Pathway

47:05-48:52 - Julie – There is still a belief system that poverty is a moral failing. We then look to “repair” this struggling individual rather than fix the systems that lead to poverty.

48:53-50:02 - Luke – As Jennifer Jones stated in the first season, we can both feed people that are hungry while also addressing the systemic and root causes of hunger. Marc, what is the state of community collaboration?

50:03-53:26 - Marc – There is robust collaboration between Brown County CPS and its school districts through a number of meetings each year. Those meetings have expanded since the pandemic. They exchange knowledge and dialogue around how they can work better together and with their families. They have worked on mandated reporting with one another. CPS is now looking to connect with families first rather than making decisions without their input.

53:27-53:45 - Luke – Laura?

53:46-57:25 - Laura – The school district in partnership with Dane County HHS has shifted from mandated reporting to mandated supporting, from truancy to chronic absenteeism, which focuses on trying to understand what is underlying the chronic absenteeism and what might be missing for families. This has led to a wraparound approach and community collaboration with housing, mental health, family-serving organizations that are communicating more effectively now, particularly for families that have been historically excluded.

57:26-58:11 - Luke – Julie Incitti from Department for Public Instruction introduced us through their efforts to better understand how mandated reporting has worked and not worked in schools. Julie, what has your team been working on to shift from mandated reporting to a more supporting mindset?

• Child Abuse and Neglect training – Department for Public Instruction

58:12-1:03:11 - Julie – Dane County’s mandated reporting process has long been a “how to” rather than emphasizing why we report who and what we report. There has been a shift towards understanding implicit bias and how it has led to disproportionality of Black and minority families being reported as well as too many families being reported who never receive the services that they could really benefit from. Encouraging more critical thinking to determine if the report rises to the level of maltreatment. Providing education to the community that anyone can refer families to the services that CPS can refer to so that they don’t feel that they need to refer to CPS for those services. Dane County has opened a line for reporters to consult with CPS rather than make the report before reflecting on whether it meets the definition of maltreatment.

1:03:12-1:04:18 – Luke – What if the thousands of families in Wisconsin that were reported to CPS but didn’t receive services were referred to a system that is designed to support them?

1:04:19-1:05:36 – Laura – The new Mandated Supporting approach centers families as the solution. All of MMSD is receiving the Mandated Supporting training.

1:05:37-1:05:58 – Luke – MMSD is Madison Metro School District. Marc?

1:05:59-1:09:55 - Marc – There has been a shift towards engagement and assessment with children and families to better understand what is truly happening with a family. They have also added their phone numbers and encouragement on screen out letters so that reporters can understand the screen out decision. This creates more collaboration and open lines of communication.

1:09:56-1:12:08 - Luke – There are two systems change levers that have been shared – 1. Change in mental models. 2. Relationships with overloaded families and community partners. What is still needed?

1:12:09-1:14:29 - Julie – Our mental models still need to shift. Some overloaded families don’t have the awareness that they are struggling, so we need to build community support around those families before they need intervention. We can’t rely solely on community organizations to solve these problems.

1:14:30-1:14:31 – Luke – Thank you, Julie. Marc?

1:14:32-1:17:23 - Marc – We need to meet families’ basic needs so that we can reduce the need for child welfare intervention. During the pandemic, stimulus checks brought down poverty and child welfare removals. 87% of families used their checks for basic needs.

• Stimulus Payments, Child Tax Credit Expansion Were Critical Parts of Successful COVID-19 Policy Response -

1:17:24-1:19:00 - Luke – We have a poverty crisis in this country. There needs to be upward pressure that includes more money in families’ pockets and downward pressure on the rising costs of housing, childcare, and food.

1:19:01-1:22:08 - Laura – We need to shift the responsibility more onto our systems that are causing many of these problems, particularly the cost and inaccessibility of basic needs. We also need a community wraparound approach that supports and empowers families. 

1:22:09-1:22:26 – Luke – What makes you optimistic?

1:22:27-1:23:21 - Laura – Students and families advocating for themselves. There are great collaborative efforts that are pushing to dismantle oppressive systems and improve our policies and practices.

1:23:22-1:23:26 - Luke – Marc?

1:23:27-1:24:52 - Marc – We are having these conversations. Years ago, this conversation wouldn’t have happened. Most of the people having these conversations are receptive to these new ideas. 

1:24:53-1:25:51 - Luke – Systems change does not happen unless hearts and minds change, and that can’t happen if these conversations aren’t happening. 

1:25:52-1:28:12 - Julie – Similar to Marc, the fact that these conversations are happening in our organizations and communities is promising. There are local and national efforts that are looking at economic and concrete supports as a solution to family separation. It’s also promising that young professionals entering the child welfare system today are learning differently, are exposed to the teachings of Dorothy Roberts and can be the disruptors to change the system.

• Dorothy Roberts
• Color of Child Welfare conference

1:28:13-1:28:51 - Luke – What book or author has shaped your thinking?

1:28:52-1:29:31 - Julie 

• Dorothy Roberts – Torn Apart
• Shanta Trivedi

1:29:32-1:29:33 – Luke – Laura?

1:29:34-1:30:19 – Laura 

• Dr. Bettina Love – We Want to Do More than Survive
• UpEnd Podcast

1:30:20-1:30:29 – Luke – Marc?

1:30:30-1:31:27 - Marc 

• Closing the Front Door of Child Protection: Rethinking Mandated Reporting
• An Unintended Abolition. Family Regulation During the COVID-19 Crisis

1:31:28-1:32:28 - Luke – Thank you, Julie, Laura and Marc

1:32:34-1:35:10 - Luke – 3 Key Takeaways

1:35:11-1:37:24 - Luke – Closing Credits

Join the conversation and connect with us!

• Visit our podcast page on our ICFW website to learn more about the experts you hear in this series.
• Subscribe, rate our show and leave feedback in the comments section.
• Sign up for our Strong Families, Thriving Children, Connected Communities initiative and our quarterly newsletter.
• Follow the Institute for Child and Family Well-being on Facebook, Instagram and LinkedIn.

Host: Luke Waldo

Experts:

• Esmeralda Martinez – Parent Advocate – Children’s Wisconsin

:00-:17 – Esmeralda Martinez - “So those closest to the problem are those who are best suited to help fix it.”

:30-4:32– Luke Waldo – Opening 

• Liz Weaver and Mark Cabaj – Collective Impact and “Nothing about us, without us” – Episode 2 
• Think of Us
• Parents Supporting Parents – Wisconsin Department for Children and Families

4:33-5:12 - Luke - Welcome, Esme. What happened in your life that led to child welfare becoming involved in your family’s life? How did the different challenges that you were facing begin to overload you with stress? 

5:13-6:36 – Esmeralda Martinez – Esme was struggling with addiction and homelessness when she was pregnant with her second child. She didn’t want to raise this child in the condition that she was in, so she left the baby at the hospital. Child welfare took custody of the child and placed her with Esme’s sister. 

6:37-7:08 - Luke – Can you share what was happening in your life that led to the abusive relationship, homelessness and financial challenges that would have made it hard for you to raise your second child?

7:09-9:30 – Esme – Childhood trauma and access to alcohol at an early age. Struggled with alcoholism in her teens with moments of sobriety. She struggled with finances as a young mother, so she decided to go back to school. She met a man who at first was really good for her and her son. But over time, he became controlling and then physically abusive to a point where she ended up in the emergency room.

9:31-11:34 - Luke – What do you feel was missing that led to your coping through alcohol? What changed that led to your moments of sobriety and pursuit of education?

11:35-15:39 - Esme – Education about what can lead to abusive relationships was missing from her youth. Her mother worked three jobs. Her family struggled with poverty, so she didn’t always have her around to support or educate her. High school students should receive education on healthy relationships and what to do if abuse does occur. People with lived experience could be powerful teachers of healthy relationship curriculum. Addiction and alcoholism was part of her family history, so she may have been predisposed. Esme’s parents took her son when she was struggling with alcohol, and they made an ultimatum that if she didn’t get sober that they would take legal steps to address her parental rights. She wished she had gotten into treatment earlier, but she wasn’t aware of them. She leaned on her faith until her daughter was removed from her care by the child welfare system. A charter school took a chance on her, which allowed her to see what healthy living looked like. It inspired her to make changes in her life.

15:40-17:07 - Luke – We often underappreciate the impact of a single person or institution on one’s motivation to overcome challenges. The school clearly helped you find your motivation. What was your experience with the child welfare system?

17:08-22:09 – Esme – For the first months after she left her daughter in the hospital, she was homeless and struggling with addiction, so she didn’t receive any documents or information as she didn’t have an address. She wanted help, but didn’t know how to get it or what the first step was. She didn’t know where to turn or that there was a process from detox to treatment and so on. After being in survival mode for so long, she was so tired. Then, a woman that she had gotten close with on the streets had disappeared for awhile, and showed back up to let her know that she had gotten treatment. This was her moment of inspiration. She contacted her sister to let her know that she was going to seek treatment. The screening and intake process was challenging as she didn’t have a working phone, so if there weren’t beds available she would need to call back every day. 

• Rogers Behavioral Health – Inpatient Services

22:10-22:18 – Luke - Esme, can you share more about your recovery journey and what it was like to navigate the Substance Abuse and Child Welfare systems at the same time?

22:19-29:12 – Esme - After a couple weeks, she was able to get in. But then there wasn’t a residential placement available, so she was going to be released. She knew that she couldn’t go back to the streets, so she asked her parents to come up to support her until she was able to get a residential placement. There was one worker who worked so hard for her until she got a placement at Meta House. She was then able to get five months of residential treatment, which is beyond the norm. In the midst of this, she was able to connect with her child welfare case manager and begin visits with her daughter. There had been some turnover with the case manager, which can be difficult for families.

• Meta House

29:13-32:32 - Luke – There are tensions in our systems – the time addiction recovery takes versus the short period of time a parent has to recover so that they can be reunified with their child – and the real challenges that overloaded families face that make it even more difficult to overcome these tensions. How did your experience with child welfare inform your work in your current role?

32:33-34:48 - Esme – The impact of peer support specialists in her treatment and recovery was so important, particularly the inspiration of seeing how far they had come. Knowing how hard this is is invaluable in giving encouragement. She does relive some of her darkest moments, but she works for an organization that takes care of her.

• Peer Specialists – Wisconsin Department for Health Services

34:49-35:58 - Luke – What does the Parent Advocate role look like?

35:59-37:40 - Esme – A direct support for biological parents who are going through the child welfare system. Sometimes a listening ear, transportation to appointments, a mediator between a parent and case manager, a support during visits. 

37:41-38:18 - Luke – What do parents tell you is the greatest value of your role?

38:19-39:11 - Esme – That doesn’t happen as you might imagine, but she realizes that she didn’t see the value necessarily in the moment when she was working with peer support either. But the exchange of information and encouragement is really important.

39:12-40:18 – Luke – How have you seen the Parent Advocate role serve as a bridge between the case manager and the parent?

40:19-41:08- Esme – The parent may be more willing to connect with her and receive the information because they know that Esme’s been through this. She works through documents and information in a way that takes some of the emotion out of the process, and it helps them understand that it’s not personal, but rather the case manager’s job.

41:09-42:19 - Luke – Is there a credibility or trust-building that happens because you have been through the system in a way that a case manager hasn’t?

42:20-43:43- Esme – Indeed. She doesn’t have to be professional in the way that case managers have to be. Maintaining professionalism when we are in somebody’s life the way that we are is very difficult. 

43:44-49:38 - Luke – It is important to explore this concept of professionalism within human services and child welfare. There is so much lived experience within our field, and yet there has been this expectation that we create strong boundaries to button it up. How might we find the balance so that one’s lived experience can help build trust with those that are in the system now? How do we support people with lived experience so that you can do your job well and for a long time?

49:39-52:18 - Esme – She feels supported by Children’s as she has the best supervisor that she’s ever had. It would be great to have another Parent Advocate to have weekly check-ins so that she could consult with them on what they are experiencing. More funding would be helpful to provide incentives to the parents that she works with to engage them.

52:19-53:50 – Luke – How do you overcome the tension of being part of the organization that is partially responsible for their family separation?

53:51-55:12 - Esme – Her role allows her to maintain confidentiality with parents. She works hard to build trust through that. 

55:13-57:11 – Luke – How have you been involved in the decision-making process? Do you feel like your perspective is changing how we think about our work?

57:12-59:33 - Esme – Partner programs such as Family Support have consulted with her. She has been involved in many focus groups exploring opportunities for systems change. Garbage can example.

59:34-1:02:00 - Luke – References Mark Cabaj, Liz Weaver and episode 2 in response to Esme’s statement of “So those closest to the problem are those who are best suited to help fix it.”

1:02:01-1:03:56 - Esme – The support that this role has received from our organization and system. Systems change takes a long time. The sincerity in the people that are leading systems change efforts. Seeing the acknowledgement of the humanity of people in the system.

1:03:57-1:05:09 - Luke - Closing and Gratitude

1:05:10-1:05:26 – Esme – Thank you

1:05:27-1:07:25 - 3 Key Takeaways

1:07:26-1:08:56 - Luke – Closing Credits

Join the conversation and connect with us!

• Visit our podcast page on our ICFW website to learn more about the experts you hear in this series.
• Subscribe, rate our show and leave feedback in the comments section.
• Sign up for our Strong Families, Thriving Children, Connected Communities initiative and our quarterly newsletter.
• Follow the Institute for Child and Family Well-being on Facebook, Instagram and LinkedIn.