PCC Local Time

What happens when municipalities stop trying to solve every problem alone?

In this episode, members of the Pennsylvania Councils of Government explore how intermunicipal cooperation creates capacity, improves services and helps communities learn from one another. Patrick Conners of South Hills COG, Ben Estell of Centre Region COG, Lance Prator of Slate Belt COG, and Deborah Grass of PACOG share examples ranging from joint purchasing and shared equipment to regional parks, bike networks, planning and public safety.

The conversation also looks at why COGs remain poorly understood, how cooperation can preserve local identity while expanding capacity, and why PACOG hopes to strengthen the statewide voice of councils of government.

The episode previews PACOG’s September 1-2 conference in State College, themed “Better Together.”

CHAPTERS:

• 00:00 — Introduction
• 02:36 — What Is a Council of Government?
• 05:45 — Centre Region: Consistency Across Municipal Borders
• 09:56 — Small Communities, Shared Capacity
• 13:39 — What Municipalities Gain from Working Together
• 16:54 — Sharing Ideas and Not Reinventing the Wheel
• 18:36 — Building Networks Across Municipal Borders
• 20:47 — Cooperation, Consistency and Fairness
• 23:31 — Creating Places to Solve Problems Together
• 25:47 — Think Globally, Act Locally
• 27:12 — What PACOG Brings to the Table
• 31:28 — Learning From Other COGs
• 32:58 — Who Should Be Paying Attention to COGs?
• 34:34 — Building a Statewide Voice
• 37:34 — Why Some Municipalities Hold Back
• 43:00 — Making COGs More Visible
• 44:53 — PACOG Conference Preview: Better Together
• 48:13 — What Everyone Is Looking Forward To

In this APMM series episode, Nancy Hess speaks with John Ernst, Borough Manager of Lansdale, and Sandra Zadell, Township Manager of Upper Gwynedd, about what the housing crisis looks like from the municipal manager’s desk.

The conversation begins with an encampment near the border of their two municipalities and moves into workforce housing, shelter, zoning, public opposition, state legislation, and the limits of what local government can do alone. John and Sandra offer a candid look at how housing pressure shows up in parks, public meetings, police calls, comprehensive plans, and the lives of people trying to stay housed.

John Ernst

Borough Manager, Lansdale Borough, Montgomery County, Pennsylvania

Sandra Brookley Zadell

Township Manager, Upper Gwynedd Township, Montgomery County, Pennsylvania

For more content like this, subscribe to MuniSquare

APMM

An advocate for municipal management and professional assistance in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania

The Association for Pennsylvania Municipal Management (APMM) is an organization of professional township, borough, city, home-rule and county managers, administrators and COG directors. APMM is dedicated to the promotion of professional and effective local government management of Pennsylvania.

“It might be more affordable — but affordable to who?” - John Ernst

“As a municipal manager, I would never advocate for any state legislation that takes away local control... I strongly believe that towns should be able to govern. That's what our Commonwealth was founded upon." - Sandra Zadell

“These are the small things that make a culture. This is what makes a community. It’s a way to show up for humanity, not a political leaning. That is just a human desire.” - Nancy Hess

Evicted: Poverty and Profit in the American City, by Matthew Desmond

Recommended by Sandra. The book won the 2017 Pulitzer Prize for General Nonfiction and examines eviction as both a consequence and a cause of poverty.

Upper Gwynedd Planning Commission presentation

Background resource on the township’s planning work and the Pennbrook Parkway affordable housing development.

Low-Income Housing Tax Credit Program (LIHCP)

The federal tax credit program discussed by Sandra in connection with the Walters Group workforce housing development.

Walters Group

The New Jersey-based developer working with Upper Gwynedd on the proposed workforce housing development.

Nomadland

The film Nancy was trying to recall during the conversation. It is a narrative feature film starring Frances McDormand, not a documentary. It won Best Picture at the 2021 Academy Awards and was inspired by Jessica Bruder’s nonfiction book, Nomadland: Surviving America in the Twenty-First Century.

Kayleigh Silver, LSW

Administrator for Montgomery County’s Office of Housing and Community Development. Nancy spoke with Kayleigh as part of her background preparation for this episode.

Pennsylvania zoning and permitting context

The episode refers to recent reporting on how zoning, permitting, local regulation, and construction costs affect homebuilding in Pennsylvania.

Pennsylvania House Bill 2186: Accessory Dwelling Units

HB 2186 passed the Pennsylvania House on June 1, 2026, by a vote of 139–62. As of July 10, 2026, it had been referred to the Senate Urban Affairs & Housing Committee. The bill would require municipalities to allow accessory dwelling units by right in areas where single-family detached homes are permitted, while allowing some local standards related to safety and neighborhood compatibility.

New Jersey affordable housing model

Sandra references the New Jersey framework shaped by the Mount Laurel doctrine and the Fair Housing Act, which creates municipal fair-share obligations for affordable housing. The guests compare that approach with Pennsylvania’s stronger tradition of local control.

As producer and publisher here at MuniSquare on Substack, today’s post is hard to write… we have decided to bring the Generation on the Rise podcast to a close, at least for now. Dave, Brandon and Nancy start off with a little light bantor today before making their way to the core message which concerns the absence of Eden.

This will not affect PCC Local Time podcast recordings or our MuniSquare podcast stream. Please subscribe to receive full content from our site that focuses on local government and public service!

00:00 Opening banter and music talk

03:00 Brandon on ICMA, APMM and the conference season

03:53 Nancy introduces the final episode

04:20 Decision to close this chapter of Generation on the Rise

05:05 Eden’s departure and what is publicly known

06:15 Why the public testimony required a response

07:10 What we know, what we do not know

07:50 Employee voice, risk and organizational recovery

08:20 Building in public and closing this chapter

08:54 Brandon reflects on the purpose of the podcast

09:35 Conversations people need but do not get formal training for

10:30 The value of candid professional dialogue

11:20 Continuing the conversation beyond the podcast

12:01 Dave reflects on Eden, Middletown and next chapters

13:00 Dave’s leadership lesson: people need to want to follow you

14:15 Authenticity, social intelligence and emotional intelligence

15:40 The danger of trying to be someone you are not

16:50 Mistakes, public judgment and professional recovery

18:10 Learning, growth and second chances in leadership

19:10 Investing in employees, boards and communities

19:45 Looking back on the podcast’s purpose and tone

21:00 Appreciation for listeners and future collaborations

21:47 Nancy reflects on Dave and Brandon’s growth

22:45 Gratitude, community and what comes next

23:40 Final goodbye and “take care of each other”

24:05 Closing banter and authenticity of the show

25:11 Nancy’s final words

25:37 Dave and Brandon close the episode

What does a mature emergency management program look like before a community is tested? In this 2026 APMM series episode of PCC Local Time, Nancy Hess talks with Shawn Kauffman, Fire Director for the Centre Region Council of Governments and former Emergency Management Coordinator, about the human infrastructure behind effective emergency response.

Shawn shares what he has learned over 40 years in emergency services. The conversation explores the importance of local knowledge, technical skill, regional coordination, relationships with county and state partners, and the ability to bring people together across silos before a crisis occurs. It is a practical and hopeful conversation for local government managers, elected officials, emergency service leaders, and volunteers who want to understand where this field is headed

Be sure to check out and subscribe ro MuniSquare for more content on local government.

TIMESTAMPS

00:00 — Introducing Shawn Kauffman and the Centre Region model

01:40 — What mature emergency management looks like

02:30 — From silos to coordination

04:00 — Building relationships before the emergency

05:20 — Local knowledge versus technical training

07:00 — Why county relationships matter in Pennsylvania

08:40 — Regionalization as a practical solution

11:00 — Volunteer capacity and looking beyond municipal borders

12:20 — No-notice events and what keeps emergency managers up at night

15:00 — The infrastructure of relationships

16:00 — What silos look like in real life

18:00 — Who makes a good emergency management coordinator?

19:30 — Falling in love with emergency management

20:20 — Who needs to be at the table?

22:10 — Lessons from major events

23:50 — Creating a “community within a community”

25:00 — Leadership, ego, and resistance

26:40 — COVID and the loss of in-person cohesion

29:00 — Working with state police and large institutions

30:30 — Large employers, institutions, and local emergency planning

32:20 — The future of emergency management

33:40 — The next emergency manager

34:40 — AI, forecasting, and the human factor

36:00 — Emergency management as a career path

37:20 — Shawn’s own path into the work

38:00 — Closing reflections

"I need help."

There are conversations in local government that change how you think about leadership. This is one of them. In this episode of PCC Local Time, I sit down with Chief David Lash of Northern York County Regional Police and Chief Dave Steffen, retired chief of Northern Lancaster County Regional Police, to talk about how the idea of wellness actually converts to meaningful outcomes inside a police agency.

Link to an earlier episode with Chief David Steffen on Regional Policing

Be sure to check out MuniSquare on Substack and our YouTube Channel

TIMESTAMPS:

00:00 Opening: why wellness and policing are difficult to connect

02:00 A 25-year relationship: how it began

05:30 The shift in policing culture around wellness

10:00 February 2025: the UPMC shooting

13:30 Immediate response and the role of support systems

17:30 Continuity of care and leadership perspective

19:30 September 2025: the second critical incident

22:30 “Two minutes of hell”: what happened and what followed

24:30 Leadership under pressure and the role of relationships

26:30 The three-word call: “I need help”

28:30 Reframing wellness as culture, not program

29:30 Reducing stigma and normalizing support

31:00 Moving from reactive to proactive wellness

32:30 Total wellness: beyond mental health

34:00 Building access: systems, providers, and trust

36:30 Wellness and use of force: a possible connection

38:00 Mindfulness and officer buy-in

39:00 Feeling valued as a core metric

40:30 Resistance, generational differences, and adaptation

44:30 Extending wellness into the community

46:30 Budgeting for wellness as essential, not optional

48:00 Culture shift: from external image to internal strength

49:30 Closing reflections: what can be carried forward

Two municipal managers introduced host Nancy to the same book: Unreasonable Hospitality by Will Guidara. Chris Garges and Joe Hogarth (also Chief of Police) join her to unpack what a four-star Manhattan restaurant can teach local government.

Through a municipal lens, they talk about the front of the house and the back of the house, how "toiling in obscurity" is part of our success, why imitating others is a bad idea, and what Joe calls the nobility of the work.

This PCC Local Time podcast episode has been created in partnership with APMM - the Association of Pennsylvania Municipal Management.

🎧 Full show notes and quotes at MuniSquare. Subscribe and get more content like this.

00:00 Opening: what can a restaurant teach local government?

00:02 How Joe and Chris found the book

00:05 Nancy’s restaurant story and the customer experience lens

00:07 Silos, roles, and balancing departments

00:09 Real teamwork across public works, police, and codes

00:11 Volunteer work and building connection across staff

00:13 Why stories matter in shaping culture

00:16 Purpose, community, and significance in public service

00:20 Chris on marathon mindset and mental toughness

00:22 Why collaboration meets resistance

00:23 Vulnerability and the myth of the all-knowing leader

00:26 Humility, learning, and asking better questions

00:27 Learn from others, but do not imitate blindly

00:29 Hierarchy, feedback, and speaking honestly

00:31 Hospitality as a daily dialogue

00:33 Younger employees and visible community impact

00:34 What leaders do with resistant employees

00:36 Encouraging people when the work never feels finished

00:38 One takeaway for managers

00:39 Nobility, purpose, and the meaning of service

00:41 Final story: when someone thanks an officer for arresting them

Why would anyone choose to evade governance, and what do contemporary versions of that choice look like in the communities we serve? What familial stories do we carry forward that are, at root, an attempt to evade government?

The late James C. Scott, Yale political scientist, agrarian studies scholar, and, as he put it himself, an anarchist willing to raise only two cheers (as he titled one of his beloved books, Two Cheers for Anarchism), spent a career asking that question.

Today we explore Scott’s book The Art of Not Being Governed, which outlines an arc of our history that is, for the most part, about people who have lived outside the reach of government systems. That we have fled, adapted, and re-integrated elsewhere, partly or fully, is fundamental to our human story. These stories reveal our diversity and resilience, but also our reluctance to be made “legible” to governments.

Here with me are Dr. Mike Rowe (University of Liverpool), Dr. Tom Bryer (University of Central Florida, soon to be founding director of the Center for CivicLands and Democratic Stewardship at Old Dominion University), and Dr. Mandie Cantlin (township manager and lecturer at West Chester University).

Together we take up Scott’s larger question: why do people stay within systems of governance, and why do they leave? Drawing on examples that range from Southeast Asia to contemporary communities, the conversation moves through themes of resistance, mobility, sustainability, and public trust.

Our conversation offers many jumping-off points for deeper inquiry into how people navigate the edges of being governed. For those of us working in and around local government, Scott’s work asks us to look more closely at how people experience governance, and what it means to belong to a place.

Check out MuniSquare.Substack.com and subscribe for more content on local government's role in our lives today.

• 00:00 — Molokai and the choice to say no
• 05:30 — Why people stay or leave a place
• 06:30 — Scott’s work and challenging linear progress
• 09:30 — Rethinking prosperity and subsistence
• 12:00 — Why people choose not to be governed
• 13:30 — Modern examples: homeschooling and personal autonomy
• 16:30 — Diversity, identity, and “legibility”
• 18:00 — The push and pull of government in everyday life
• 20:00 — Contemporary forms of resistance
• 21:30 — Subsistence thinking in modern economies
• 23:00 — Development, sustainability, and local choice
• 24:30 — The role of government when people resist
• 26:00 — Participation, “state picking,” and civic voice
• 29:00 — Public trust and agency
• 30:00 — Ecological systems and unintended consequences
• 33:00 — Climate, risk, and the role of the state
• 37:30 — Hill people, mobility, and “flight”
• 40:00 — No single path forward
• 41:30 — Civilization, exclusion, and who belongs
• 45:30 — Living with tension in governance
• 47:30 — Closing reflections

Brandon Ford rejoins Dave Pribulka and Eden Ratliff and wastes no time stepping back into the role of host. He deftly guides the conversation from how have expectations changed for managers to something much deeper that touches on what it means to be apolitical in this new reality and how compartmentalization may or may not serve the profession going forward.

Check our MuniSquare for more content like this and be sure to subscribe!

00:00 Sports and Local Engagement

03:56 International City Management Association Insights

09:30 Expectations of Local Government

18:44 The Role of Technology in Local Governance

23:13 Navigating Civic Engagement and Emotional Appeals

25:13 The Complexity of Local Governance

28:35 Engaging the Next Generation of Managers

30:26 The Balance of Politics and Management

32:34 Compartmentalizing Personal Beliefs in Governance

36:34 The Future of Political Neutrality in Local Government

40:18 Maintaining Professional Standards Amidst Political Pressures

Who gets to decide the value of a place? In other words, who gets to decide the metric?

I brought that question to Christa Breum Amhøj, a Danish practitioner, researcher, and what I can only describe as a social architect because she reads a place the way a building architect reads a site. And to John Diamond, who sits in Manchester and has been watching the same tensions play out in the UK across decades of academic research, consultation, and engagement with emerging local government challenges. What follows is my attempt to trace the arc of what the three of us discovered together.

Be sure to check out the full video on MuniSquare or our YouTube Channel and subscribe to get more content like this!

• 01:39 — Opening: Who Creates Value in a Community?
• 02:23 — Competing Definitions of Public Value
• 03:38 — Rethinking Value: The Aging Society Example
• 06:22 — Tourism, Resistance, and Local Control (Scotland Case)
• 08:51 — Visible vs. Invisible Value
• 11:11 — Micro-Experiments vs. Traditional Innovation
• 14:53 — Professional Expertise vs. Local Knowledge
• 19:43 — A Place Has Agency
• 21:00 — Learning to Observe and Map a Place
• 23:27 — From Problem-Solving to System-Based Thinking
• 24:42 — Case Study: Faxe Municipality (Denmark)
• 27:00 — Redesigning the Festival Through Community Input
• 28:30 — Outcomes: Relationships, Access, and New Pathways
• 32:49 — Why Process Matters More Than Outputs
• 34:00 — Access and Infrastructure: The Transport Example
• 37:45 — The COMPASS Model Overview
• 42:30 — Managing Tension and Conflict in Co-Creation
• 44:00 — Expanding the Definition of Prosperity
• 46:30 — The Role of the Facilitator in Place-Based Work
• 53:34 — Closing Reflections: Practice Over Theory

Economic development isn’t just about buildings and business, sidewalks and parking, blighted malls and dying downtowns, housing shortages and shrinking workforces, casino controversies and data center ordinances. It’s actually about facilitating conversations with the people invested in the outcomes.

Keri (Miller) Kenepp, Director of Community and Economic Development for College Township, Pennsylvania, and Erin (Genest) Trone, Project Manager for BusinessPA at the Pennsylvania Department of Community & Economic Development, walk us through a maze of issues facing local governments today and grant us invaluable insights into how we can think about a future together.

This episode is made possible by a partnership with APMM, the Association for Pennsylvania Municipal Management.

Be sure to subscribe to MuniSquare to get full content that includes all episodes of PCC Local Time and much, much more.

00:00 – Who Shapes the Future of a Place? (Episode Setup)

02:00 – Keri’s Non-Traditional Path into Economic Development

05:00 – The Expansive Nature of Local Government Roles

07:00 – “Creating the Conditions” for Development

08:30 – The Long Game vs. Election Cycles

10:30 – What Elected Officials Want (and Need to Say in Public)

12:30 – Casinos: Public Resistance vs. Legal Reality

15:00 – Data Centers: Misunderstanding and Zoning Constraints

17:00 – “We Have to Allow for All Uses” (Policy Reality)

20:00 – The Power of Community Resistance (Nestlé Case)

22:00 – The Blighted Mall and Risk-Taking in Development

23:00 – Understanding the Private Sector (Erin’s State Role)

25:00 – Matchmaking: Communities and Companies

29:00 – The Facilitator Role Defined

31:00 – Advising Elected Officials (Pros, Cons, and Decisions)

33:00 – Tension: Standards vs. Development (Affordable Housing)

36:00 – Sidewalks as a Case Study in Equity and Safety

38:00 – Developer Perspective: Why Projects Don’t Pencil Out

40:00 – Blighted Properties and “Highest and Best Use”

43:00 – Redeveloping the Mall (Zoning Shifts and Density)

45:30 – Parking: Outdated Assumptions and New Thinking

49:00 – Changing Mindsets About Walkability

50:30 – What Keri Had to Unlearn About Economic Development

53:00 – Erin on Labor Shortages, AI, and Shifting Metrics