PCC Local Time

Structural change in local government is rare. Therefore, we don’t often get the opportunity to learn how it works.

My three guests today, Jerry Andree, Toby Cordek, and Michael Foreman were invited to work with a group of engaged citizens in Millcreek Township, Erie County to shepard a community making its third attempt in fifteen years to restructure their local government.

Millcreek is one of the largest second-class townships in Pennsylvania with nearly 55,000 residents, a sophisticated range of services, and all the complexity that comes with governing a community that size. Yet for decades, it has been run by three elected supervisors who, at their first meeting after each election, appoint themselves as the township’s full-time municipal administrators. This does not provide for a separation of powers between the people who set policy and the people who carry it out and creates a vacuum in the continuity of services.

This episode is in many respects a rare master class in how to form a study commission and carry a recommendation through to the voters. But more importantly, it’s a frank, insider conversation about the dynamics behind the scenes, including the interviews, the resistance, the attacks, and what it takes to stay focused and transparent when the process gets hard.

This podcast episode has been created in partnership with APMM, the association for professional municipal managers to enhance learning, leadership development and networking.

Jerry Andree spent three decades as Township Manager of Cranberry Township in Butler County Pennsylvania and has been a steady presence in local government leadership across Pennsylvania. Even in retirement, he continues to teach, advise, and support communities working through complex challenges.

Toby Cordek served more than 35 years as Town Manager of McCandless in Allegheny County and has worked across nearly every aspect of local government. Today, he continues to mentor leaders and support municipalities through consulting and executive search work.

Michael Foreman brings over 30 years of experience with the Pennsylvania Department of Community and Economic Development, where he advised municipalities on policy, finance, and operations. He now continues that work as a consultant supporting local governments across the region.

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00:00 – Opening: Why this story matters

Nancy frames the rarity of structural change in local government and introduces Millcreek as a “third attempt” story with real stakes.

01:30 – Guest introductions

Jerry Andree, Toby Cordek, and Michael Foreman are introduced with their backgrounds and roles.

03:00 – What makes Millcreek different

Three-member board of supervisors acting as full-time administrators—an unusual structure for a township of this size.

05:30 – The core problem emerges

Lack of professional management; solicitor acting as de facto manager; growing complexity of the township.

07:45 – Why residents pushed for change

Blended roles (legislative, executive, administrative) and growing disconnect between governance and community expectations.

09:00 – Public access and transparency issues

Meeting times and structure raise questions about accessibility and responsiveness to residents.

10:30 – Clarifying the real issue

Not about removing elected officials—but clarifying roles and introducing professional management.

12:00 – How a study commission works

Michael walks through the legal process: ballot question, election, structure, and responsibilities.

15:00 – Inside the research process

Interviews with department heads, supervisors, and comparisons with other townships.

17:00 – Why council-manager emerged as the best fit

Separation of powers, stability, and professional administration.

19:00 – What the interviews revealed

Lack of continuity, shifting oversight, and absence of administrative expertise.

21:00 – A “vacuum of continuity”

Toby reflects on what was felt inside the organization—competence present, but no administrative anchor.

22:30 – Resistance from leadership

Supervisors not supportive; difficult environment for employees and interviews.

23:30 – The decision point: vote for change

Study commission evaluates options and moves toward a council-manager model.

27:00 – Voter approval and timeline to 2028

Final report, public hearing, and decisive vote; transition period begins.

28:00 – The “secret sauce” begins

Shift from structure to human dynamics—how the commission actually worked together.

29:00 – Building trust and momentum

Early meetings, “symbiosis,” and a nurturing leadership approach.

31:00 – Organizing the commission like a governing body

Committees form; members begin practicing how a council operates.

32:30 – Facing attacks and staying grounded

Public criticism, accusations, and the discipline to “keep the high ground.”

34:30 – Who were the commission members?

Diverse, accomplished residents who largely didn’t know each other before serving.

36:30 – What made the group effective

Patience, empathy, discipline—and a shared commitment to the community.

37:00 – Understanding resistance

Cultural, political, and financial incentives behind opposition to change.

39:30 – The work is not finished

Transition phase begins; questions about hiring a professional manager.

40:30 – The transition challenge

No formal roadmap after the vote; need for a transition committee and continued leadership.

42:00 – Administrative code and control

Who shapes the new system—and whether it enables or constrains the manager role.

45:00 – “Poison pills” to watch for

Risks in implementation: micromanagement, weak role definition, hiring decisions.

47:00 – Signs of early progress

Evening meetings added; continued civic engagement by commission members.

48:30 – One chance to get it right

Importance of early leadership and governance alignment.

49:00 – The first manager will be tested

Discussion of political pressure, expectations, and leadership resilience.

50:30 – What kind of leader is needed?

Experience, toughness, and ability to navigate conflict and culture change.

52:00 – Community support for change

Strong voter backing and desire for professional leadership.

53:00 – Closing reflections

“You only get one opportunity to do it right.”

54:00 – Final thoughts: democracy in action

Guests reflect on the meaning of the process and community engagement.

Maggie Dobbs is a trained city planner (Rutgers) who spent a decade writing comprehensive plans across Montgomery County before stepping into her current role as Borough Manager of Narberth, Pennsylvania, a half-square-mile community tucked inside Lower Merion Township just outside of Philadelphia. She arrived after a period of leadership turnover. What she found was not a small job. It was a dense one.

Host Brandon Ford and co-host Nancy Hess have a wide ranging conversation with Maggie that moves through the real experience of borough management: the math of running a full municipal government — police, public works, library, eleven miles of road — with fifteen people and a fraction of a township’s budget; the intimacy that makes boroughs special and the same intimacy that makes criticism land close to the heart; and the reality that wearing every hat in the building demands more knowledge, not less, than specializing in a larger organization.

Maggie is candid about walking into a community that had cycled through five managers in four years, what it took to steady that ship, and why her focus is on building standard operating procedures so the day-to-day can run itself. Along the way, the crew explores Narberth’s housing story — how a historically working-class rail town became the highest median sales price in Montgomery County — and what that shift means for a community once referred to as “Mayberry,” still sorting out who it is.

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Five Realities Before You Take the Seat

1. Your job will crowd out your job. Protect space for strategic work.
2. SOPs are not paperwork. They are oxygen.
3. Fill your blind spots early. Pride is expensive.
4. Proactive information reduces political friction.
5. Borough leadership is not smaller. It’s closer.

0:00 – Introducing Maggie and Narberth

1:18 – The “donut hole” geography inside Lower Merion

2:09 – Maggie’s path: NJ Dept. of Agriculture → Rutgers → Planning

3:30 – Montgomery County Planning Commission & contract planning model

5:49 – Writing four comprehensive plans; interviewing hundreds

8:12 – Planners as connectors in local government

9:36 – Being tapped for the manager role

10:01 – First-year lessons; “90% of the day is listening”

12:36 – Compliance vs. innovation — the Venn diagram problem

13:20 – Shared services with Lower Merion

17:45 – Joint traffic study collaboration

21:29 – Pennsylvania’s “nugget” borough system

24:02 – Borough vs. township — professional fit

27:08 – Narberth staffing reality (4 admin, 6 police, 5 public works)

30:00 – Affordable housing question

31:05 – Narberth’s housing transformation

36:10 – Generalist vs. specialist municipal structures

40:47 – SOPs, website overhaul, proactive communication

42:00 – Five managers in four years — rebuilding trust

44:34 – The lunch that changed her mind

49:57 – Finance gaps & building a support network

52:27 – Who thrives in borough leadership?

54:31 – Closing reflections

There is a polite fiction in local government that serving “at the pleasure of the governing body” rests securely on mutual trust. Often it does. Increasingly, it can feel more fragile.

In today’s political climate, the employment relationship between elected officials and their chief administrative officer deserves a closer examination. What protections actually exist? Who advocates for the manager when circumstances shift?

In this episode of Generation on the Rise, Eden Ratliff and Dave Pribulka sit down with Brad Gotshall to explore what it means to become, in his words, a “free agent.” They examine contracts and severance, and they also confront questions of reputation, professional identity, and the personal weight of transitions that can be political, strategic, or simply inevitable.

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1. 00:00 – Cold open, book banter, introductions
2. 04:30 – Brad’s background: elected official at 17 to professional manager
3. 09:30 – Transition to Warren County and “free agency”
4. 11:30 – Protecting yourself as a manager: personal and professional buckets
5. 13:30 – Contract negotiations: learning the hard way
6. 16:00 – Do managers need representation?
7. 19:00 – The loneliness of severance negotiations
8. 22:00 – Lower Paxton: no contract, negotiated exit
9. 26:00 – Recruiter’s role in negotiations
10. 31:00 – Severance pushback and board dynamics
11. 37:00 – Creative contract structures (Rehoboth example)
12. 39:30 – Should managers use agents?
13. 41:30 – Legal review vs. negotiation support
14. 43:00 – Preserving reputation under NDAs
15. 45:30 – Building a personal brand before crisis hits
16. 48:00 – No-fault divorce vs. political dismissal
17. 50:00 – Wrap-up and Part Two teaser

Eden and Dave are joined by guest Jeffrey Stonehill, Borough Manager of Chambersburg Pennsylvania. They begin with an examination of how crises today differ from those Jeffrey encountered when he began in the field. Although they traverse the doom and gloom of dealing with crisis in the profession, they return to the core reasons they remain in the field.

Contrasting generational perspectives and recognition of the vulnerability that comes with commitment and transitions make this episode a memorable one.

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🔥Crisis has always been part of the job. The pressure isn’t new — the speed is.

🔥Not every issue deserves full emotional escalation.

🔥Fire Suppression ≠ Fire Prevention. Be proactive.

🔥 The communities you serve will continue without you—and that's okay.

🔥Leaving a community requires a grieving process, even when it's your choice to leave.

🔥The work is meaningful. Despite the pressure, leaders would not trade the experience.

00:00 - Cold open and greetings

03:47 - Welcome and introduction to Generation on the Rise

04:42 - Introducing first-time guest Jeffrey Stonehill

06:32 - Jeffrey’s career journey: From SUNY grad to 40-year manager

08:15 - The “crisis as normal” phenomenon in local government

11:45 - Why municipalities attract constant crisis

15:20 - The evolution of pressure: Then vs. now

19:30 - Harrisburg bankruptcy and advisory board experience

24:10 - The psychological toll of perpetual emergency management

28:45 - Learning to disconnect (or trying to)

33:20 - The loneliness of municipal management

37:50 - Why managers struggle to share burdens

42:15 - Transitioning between communities: The Disney tradition

45:40 - The grieving process when you leave a community

49:18 - Taking care of yourself and your family

50:05 - Despite everything: Why we love this profession

52:03 - Closing thoughts and next week’s preview

Hey listeners, if you like video with your podcast, check out this episode on Spotify with the video feed included. Don't forget to hit the follow button. And subscribe to MuniSQuare where you will find more on the Pioneering Change Community channel.

"We are all one elected official away from a hostile work environment.” - Dave

“Yeah, but if it gets that bad, why would you stay?" - Eden

Today on Generation on the Rise, what starts as tactical shop talk evolves into a revealing examination of professional isolation, with Dave pushing hard on systemic advocacy gaps while Eden counters with self-reliance pragmatism. By the end, they’re debating whether the profession’s recruitment crisis stems from lack of awareness or legitimate wariness about the job’s inherent instability.

“Labor relations are high risk, high reward. When it goes bad, it goes bad fast.” - Brandon

1. Generational dynamics within unions have shifted bargaining leverage.
2. Don’t wait until negotiation year to build trust.
3. Personnel management is on-the-job training, no matter your preparation.
4. Managers lack advocacy structures..
5. Geographic mobility is a professional survival skill, not a character flaw.
6. The profession needs better advocacy and mentorship structures.

1. 00:00 – Sustainability banter, ICMA programs
2. 03:00 – Topic launch: manager’s role in HR
3. 04:30 – Why personnel issues are hardest to prepare for
4. 06:00 – HR professionals vs textbook training
5. 08:30 – Generational workforce dynamics
6. 10:00 – Labor relations as high-risk / high-reward
7. 12:00 – Collective bargaining philosophy differences
8. 18:00 – “Sacrificing the unborn” and pension negotiations
9. 22:00 – Relationship building with unions outside negotiation years
10. 29:00 – Transparency and negotiating in public
11. 33:00 – The manager as an employee: who advocates for us?
12. 38:00 – Hostile work environment discussion
13. 44:00 – The limits of formal support structures
14. 50:00 – Informal networks and senior advisors
15. 53:00 – ICMA’s role: management vs manager debate
16. 55:00 – Closing reflections on the realities of the profession

In this kickoff-to-2026 episode of Generation on the Rise, hosts Dave Pribulka, Brandon Ford, and Eden Ratliff tackle the question: what is the real role of a municipal manager in forming local government policy?

Generation on the Rise is produced by Nancy Hess (Publisher of MuniSquare) and features Eden Ratliff (Middletown Township Manager, Bucks County PA), Brandon Ford (Lower Merion Assistant Township Manager, Montgomery County PA, and Dave Pribulka (Bellefonte Borough Manager, Centre County PA)

MuniSquare is a reader-supported publication. To subscribe to this feed, receive new posts and support our work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.

This is a great listen for anyone interested in the work of local government or just wants to understand how it really works. Be sure to leave your comments and questions for the crew to tackle in a future episode.

“Our job is to inform the process, respect the outcome, and then deliver with enthusiasm.” - Eden

“We took ‘leaf blower ban’ as a goal and did what staff does—we turned it into options, wrote the ordinance, and recommended a seasonal ban. The board said, ‘Thanks, but we want a full ban.’ And that’s democracy.” - Brandon

“Sometimes the textbook says, ‘The board sets policy, the manager administers.’ The real work is everything in between—the translation, the conflict, the opportunity costs.” - Dave

TIMESTAMPS:

00:00 – New Year banter & Y2K

03:30 – First-week-back routines & “Purge Day”

06:30 – Reorganization meetings as the “real” New Year

09:00 – Setting up the topic: managers and policy formation

10:00 – Textbook council–manager model vs reality

12:00 – How Eden reads and frames board policy priorities

13:30 – Who really sets the agenda? Chair vs manager

14:30 – Is capital equipment a policy question?

16:00 – Municipal vs nonprofit vs corporate boards

17:30 – Disagreeing with the board and processing it at home

21:00 – Culture, roles, and “no big emotions” about policy

24:00 – Translating decisions up and down the organization

28:00 – “Negotiation” vs expectations and culture

29:30 – When managers do and don’t make recommendations

33:00 – Budgets, tax policy, and whether a balanced budget is a recommendation

36:00 – Assistant manager perspective: one functional unit

38:00 – Preemption, home rule, and plastic-bag bans

44:00 – Inertia, backlash, and revisiting policy after it “marinates”

47:00 – What’s distinctive about the Generation on the Rise cohort?

48:00 – When operations are failing and the manager must force the policy conversation

49:00 – Closing reflections & takeaways

Summary: In this thought-provoking episode, Brandon, Dave, and Eden tackle the complex topic of workplace loyalty in local government. The hosts debate what loyalty means in practice, whether it’s connected to tenure, and how it differs from professionalism. The conversation takes an unexpected turn into residency requirements, sparking passionate disagreement about whether living in the community you serve impacts your work. As they wrap up 2024, the hosts announce exciting changes coming in 2025, including guest appearances.

Generation on the Rise is produced by Nancy Hess (Publisher of MuniSquare) and features Eden Ratliff (Middletown Township Manager, Bucks County PA), Brandon Ford (Lower Merion Assistant Township Manager, Montgomery County PA, and Dave Pribulka (Bellefonte Borough Manager, Centre County PA)

MuniSquare is a reader-supported publication. To subscribe to this feed, receive new posts and support our work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.

Show Notes:

1. What does workplace loyalty mean in local government?
2. The connection (or disconnection) between loyalty and tenure
3. ICMA’s two-year standard and generational shifts in career mobility
4. Professionalism vs. loyalty: which matters more?
5. The heated residency debate: does living in your community change your recommendations?
6. Small town dynamics vs. larger municipalities
7. Looking ahead: Generation on the Rise adds guests in 2025!

Timestamps:

1. 00:00 - Cold open: ICMA’s two-year standard discussion
2. 01:00 - Holiday gift assembly war stories
3. 05:00 - Defining workplace loyalty in local government
4. 08:00 - The role of personal affinity in job selection
5. 11:00 - Measuring loyalty: what does it look like?
6. 15:00 - The two-year standard and its implications
7. 18:00 - Why managers move more frequently now
8. 22:00 - ICMA’s two-year standard revisited
9. 27:00 - Loyalty vs. professionalism in difficult decisions
10. 31:00 - The residency debate begins
11. 40:00 - Does living in your community affect recommendations?
12. 46:00 - Generational differences in mobility and commitment
13. 50:00 - Episode wrap-up and 2025 announcement

As the calendar year closes out, Eden Ratliff sits down with Brandon Ford and Dave Pribulka to talk about strategic planning in the real world: not as a glossy document, but as a working “rudder” for budget decisions, priorities, and day-to-day execution.

They dig into the tension between aspirational goals (the “why”) and cross-offable action steps (the “how”)—including how to avoid plans that sound inspiring but don’t translate into steps, owners, timelines, or resources.

Along the way, they compare planning approaches in large and small communities, debate when to use consultants vs. doing the work in-house, and talk honestly about what happens when boards turn over and want to toss the plan on the shelf.

Generation on the Rise is produced by Nancy Hess and features Eden Ratliff (Middletown Township Manager, Bucks County PA), Brandon Ford (Lower Merion Assistant Township Manager, Montgomery County PA, and Dave Pribulka (Bellefonte Borough Manager, Centre County PA)

Subscribe to MuniSquare on Substack and sign up for the Generation on the Rise feed.

00:00 - Welcome & Year-End Check-In

00:01 - Episode Introduction: Strategic Planning

00:02 - Brandon's Love/Hate Relationship with Strategic Planning

00:03 - The Chicken or Egg Debate: Aspirational vs. Practical

00:04 - Dave Introduces "Cross-Offable" Action Steps

00:05 - The Comp Plan vs. Strategic Plan Hierarchy Debate

00:07 - Eden's Cascade Model: How Plans Connect

00:08 - Lower Merion's Annual Priorities Workshop Process

00:11 - Strategic Planning for Small Communities

00:15 - Dave: Small Communities Need It MORE

00:17 - Brandon's Reality Check: Need vs. Resources

00:18 - In-House vs. Hiring Consultants

00:20 - Dave on Pros and Cons of Each Approach

00:22 - Eden's Charlottesville Story: Third-Party Facilitation

00:24 - Most Memorable Planning Experiences

00:26 - Eden's 112-Person Strategic Team: "Planning Is Messy"

00:28 - Strategic Plans Cannot Replace Policy Process

00:30 - The Big Question: What When Boards Throw Out Your Plan?

00:31 - Defining AMI and ALICE (Housing Affordability Context)

00:34 - Dave: Sometimes Things Just Change

00:35 - "Failing to Plan Is Planning to Fail" - True or False?

00:37 - Emergency Planning Discussion

00:38 - Dave's Key Insight: Strategic Plans Give Managers "Cover"

00:40 - Final Wisdom: Planning for Communities of All Sizes

00:41 - Closing & Where to Listen

In this episode of ‘Generation on the Rise’, the hosts Dave Pribulka, Eden Ratliff, and Brandon Ford “go there” to unpack the inherent biases present in local government, and how it can impact decision-making processes.

They explore how biases affect hiring practices and public policy formation, emphasizing the need for a culture of challenge and building perspective in leadership. The conversation also touches on the impact of confirmation bias and the necessity of engaging with voices from outside familiar turf to challenge the status quo.

02:51 The Meaning Behind ‘Generation on the Rise’

12:06 Understanding Bias in Local Government

23:47 Bias in Hiring Processes and Practices

28:27 Navigating Education Choices in Suburban Life

29:41 Blind Reviews and Bias in Hiring

31:35 The Importance of Diverse Perspectives

33:17 Creating a Culture of Disagreement

35:01 Affinity Bias in Team Dynamics

37:47 The CAO and Assistant Relationship

42:54 Confirmation Bias in Municipal Management

54:58 The Impact of Experience on Management Bias

59:22 Bias in Public Policy Formation

In this episode, Brandon Ford leads the conversation with co- hosts Eden Ratlif and Dave Pribulka. They discuss the challenges of work-life balance in local government, touching on public comment dynamics, the pioneering leaf blower ban initiative, and the importance of personal life beyond work. They explore generational differences in work expectations, the impact of remote work policies, and the recent implementation of a paid parental leave policy. The conversation emphasizes the need for boundaries and support in achieving a healthy work-life balance.

Highlights include: why culture starts at the top (and why “first in, last out” can quietly poison a workplace), why “email jail” keeps people from fully unplugging, what it looks like to structure remote work without creating resentment, and a concrete example of a benefits move that actually supports families: a 12-week paid parental leave policy that includes birth, non-birth parents, adoption, and foster adoption.