Will (00:00):
Welcome back to the Prisoners of Hope podcast. This is Will Carlisle, and I'm joined as always by the great, the illustrious, the loved Joshua Youssef.
Josh (00:14):
Great to be back. Happy new year.
Will (00:15):
Happy New Year. Happy New Year. It's January. It's the first Prisoners of Hope of the year. And so today we're just going to have a little bit of a state of affairs conversation about the persecuted church, about what 2024 feels like globally for the persecuted church and help the persecuted vision for the year and kind of down into the nitty-gritty personal side of the ministry that is happening. So one of the things that is sort of like a topic of conversation within this fear is that persecution seems to be increasing and Islam seems to be on the rise in parts of the world, and that can kind of come with a whole host and plethora of opinions and hot takes and whatnot. So Josh, what are your thoughts on why is persecution increasing? Why do we seem to be seeing the things overseas that we are seeing? Yeah, what is your takeaway?
Josh (01:24):
Well, we're looking at two different things. One is the growth and advance of Islam and the growth in advance of the church, the growth in advance of conversion. And so when you look at the last 1400 years since Islam, you have only... Let's say prior to the 1980s, you have only really a handful of conversion moments within the Islamic community. You have stories about William of Tripoli and others who were around the crusader time in places like modern day Libya and Turkey and stuff, where there were instances of Muslims coming to faith in Christ. In fact, I think in modern day Libya, there was an account of about a thousand Muslims coming to faith in Christ. Now, we don't know whether they were genuinely preached the gospel and that they converted, or was it that there was in this battle, they felt like, okay, let's join the other team.
(02:28):
We don't know. But when we look at the 1980s, '90s, 200s, we have seen... And I'm writing about this for reform theological seminary, we have seen a movement of conversion from Islam in mass numbers. We're seeing even a phenomena of things that make us in the reform camp very uncomfortable, like dreams and visions of Jesus. And so you have this growth and advent advance of Islam, but you also have this growth of the church. You have more converts today than we've ever seen. And I've said this repeatedly. I go around and ask pastors all the time, pastors in Morocco, pastors in Iraq, pastors in Syria, "How many converts did you know..."
(03:14):
Even know, not just have you heard of in the 1960s and '70s. And they would say, "We don't remember any of that." And they would say, around the nineties and two thousands, we started to see more. And I talked to one pastor in Iraq, and he said half of his church are converts from a Muslim background. So you have this advance of Islam, which is a very honor, shame culture, does not respond well to conversion and leaving the faith. And you have this growth of the church. And what it is, it's basically two trains kind of colliding, and that's the persecution.
Will (03:47):
Yeah. Yeah. It's helpful for me to think of this through the lens of spiritual warfare rather than just a tug of war kind of match. I've been watching a Band of Brothers recently, the amazing World War II miniseries. And one of the things that's fresh on my mind because of that is war is really messy and painful to watch. And it's not like, "Oh, this side is clearly winning all the time without any casualties, without any struggles, and this other side is receding." But there's this give and take, and there's a million different angles that all tell different stories. That's the story of World War II.
(04:35):
And scripture clearly talks about these sorts of matters as spiritual warfare, these unseen forces that we see come into play in these dreams and visions and all this spiritual activity, some of which we've covered on this podcast. And so I think that what you're saying is a great reminder to not be easily shaken, but to actually be reoriented towards this is warfare and both sides are trying to make advances. We know who wins in the end. We know the name above every other names, but as there's advances and rises in persecution, that is only a side of the story, but we know who wins at the end. So given though that persecution is increasing, what is HTP's plan and what are you doing to respond to this shifting climate?
Josh (05:37):
Yeah, I mean, at the end of the day, we feel called to rescue and restore and rebuild people who have essentially gone through a very difficult situation, a very challenging situation where their livelihood has been taken from them, their inheritance has been taken from them. In some cases, their life has been taken from them, and then they were the provider for their family. And so we have to provide for the family that's left. And so how do we support a beleaguered church, a struggling church, a church that is what I would call weak in the physical sense. I don't think they are spiritually. They're actually stronger than us spiritually, but they are weaker physically and in a social fabric sense. And so that was what we aim to do, is to support a church that is weak and that can survive and with the goal to survive a dry climate, if you will. Not a literally dry climate, but a spiritually dry climate. And so we want to see a church that's flourishing in hostile lands, and that oftentimes does take a practical turn for us.
(06:50):
We have to sort of treat these people as a whole person spiritually and physically. When they lose their job, we need to help them find a job or create a business. When they are kicked out of their house, they need practical roof over their heads. They need a safe house. And so those are the day in and day out tactical things that we do. Now, strategically, we're looking at Libya. We just recently brought Yemen online. That's going to take some time to get fully onboarded, but Libya is in the future. Afghanistan's still in our sites. We think we have a solution there. And Libya is one of those places that I've been doing ministry in and out of the Middle East for over 20 something years. And every conference that I would go to, people would say, "We can't find anybody in Libya." Libya has just always been a drought place, and we think we have a bead on the right person or persons. And so that's a country that I think really needs the gospel. It's an unreached country for sure, but we also know that there are believers there that need support.
Will (08:01):
Yeah, that's awesome. There's two things in play there. It's like some of it is as daily life and tactical as job hunting aid or daily provision, but then also this high level globalistic, looking at these different countries and the political and spiritual climates and ramifications. So there's a lot going on there and a lot it sounds like, to be excited about for another year of this ministry that you are doing. For you, Josh, personally, what are you most excited about? And maybe you can speak collectively for your team for 2024 and these new prospects and all the work that's going on. What are you most excited about for this year of ministry that you are looking at ahead?
Josh (09:01):
Yeah, I mean, we are actually gathering as a team this year, the whole team, almost Morocco, Algeria, Egypt, Lebanon, Jordan, Syria, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan, I mean, all of us coming together. And so I'm super excited about that. We don't get to do that very often. A lot of things are done through Signal and Zoom and calls, WhatsApp. So it's good for us to be together. That's like what we're really looking forward to. And then there's just this desire that I have for us to go into these countries, Yemen and Libya, and get into find a solution for Afghanistan. So those are the big things that I'm dialed in on.
Will (09:52):
What is all staff, HTP home team gathering? What are you going to do? What's the plan, hope, dream?
Josh (10:03):
The Middle Eastern culture is so warm, it's so kind, and there's just a lot of warmth when we all come together. And they often talk about in the Middle East, they talk so close to each other, you can smell each other's breath. And sometimes that can make a westerner very uncomfortable. But for me, having some Middle Eastern blood in me, I sometimes feel like I'm at home when I'm with the group and there's lots of laughter. There are a ton of tears. And just hearing from my own teams, look, they're helping people who are struggling and they themselves are struggling. They're struggling with the same kind of things that we deal with in the West in terms of just day-to-day life. But then they are also being chased down by secret police. They're having to navigate truth. How do they tell the truth and not be shrewd about certain things they can say and can't say to certain people? They're constantly living under the thumb of either a state dictatorial regime or being watched by other family members who are suspicious of their own situation and what they're doing.
Will (11:17):
Yeah. Gosh, that's amazing. When is that all team gathering going to happen, or is that-
Josh (11:23):
Early February. We'll say early February in an undisclosed location.
Will (11:27):
I like it. Yeah. Well, that's definitely something to be praying towards for all of us, for some refreshing time for everyone. What else, as you look forward into 2024? For the avid HTP prayer warrior, what are the big picture? A lot of us get the prayer report every week, which it's amazing and well put together and has these... It's very granular. You can kind of get into the stories of these people that HTP is helping. But looking at 2024 on a whole, where should people be directing their prayers? Where should I be aiming those big picture prayers for help the persecuted?
Josh (12:15):
Well, it's good. I mean, each country has their unique set of problems. But I will say that Lebanon is one of those countries that needs our prayer. It's such a pivotal country for us because it's critical to... It's what I call a fallback country. So you have converts in Syria who are really running for their life, truly running for their life, or converts from Egypt or converts from Iraq. Lebanon is our easiest country to get people in as far as visas and as far as the number of safe houses that we have and the structures that are there. So we need to pray for Lebanon that it would remain free of war. And the economic situation that's impacted Lebanon is just awful. So we've expanded the size of our farm. We've set up a refuge center, and so these are things that we need to be praying for Lebanon.
(13:08):
It's this foundational block country block for us. Somebody asked me, "Well, what happens if Lebanon falls?" And the answer is at that point, I don't know. I mean, Turkey's kind of an option, but not really. Not for more middle Arab centric people, but for Persians it is. So these are things we need to be praying for. We started these ministry teams in Lebanon, and they've been doing great personal discipleship and personal ministry, and so we want to start doing that, those kind of care teams in other countries as well. And so pray that we would find the right people who are committed to evangelism and to that ministry shepherding aspect.
Will (13:58):
Absolutely. This is going off script a little bit, but I'm curious. I'm sure other people are. Obviously, one of the hottest topics of conversation right now is the war in Palestine, the Israel-Hamas conflict. We only see the tip of the iceberg, which is the outright tension between this group, Hamas and the state of Israel. But I would assume that that has tentacles that run deep into the climate of the Middle East. So is that affecting the work of HTP?
Josh (14:39):
I pulled up this tweet from a friend of mine, Robert Nicholson, and I've known Robert for years now. He's up in New York and does some writing. He's written for Wall Street Journal and Atlantic, I think. And Robert tweeted this out, and I sent it to my team. I said, "Finally, somebody's written something I've been thinking, but I didn't know how to articulate." But he said, "Middle Eastern Christians come in two flavors. One is brainwashed by Arabist and Islamist propaganda and thinks that Israel is their enemy. The other knows that the people trying to destroy Israel want to destroy them too." And if I'm honest with you, Will, this is a challenge that we're dealing with as an organization... Not so much as an organization internally. I think we are all pretty uniform, but certainly what we're dealing with in the broader Christian world... And I say Christian. I actually think a lot of converts who've left Islam understand this better than those who were born into a cultural ethnic Christian background like a Coptic Christian or a Maronite Christian or whatever.
(15:52):
Their identity has been so rocked and so broken up. The soil has been so broken up of Islam that they no longer have this loyalty, this blind loyalty to Palestine in the sense of... Again, I'm talking more like Hamas. I have very sensitive feelings about Palestinians in general. I lean more towards their plight in some ways. But in terms of this, Israel is evil and has done these heinous things, and they're killing babies and all this kind of stuff, it's just rooted in reality. And so some have, unfortunately, I think blindly adopted this notion that Israel is evil. And again, they are a nation that... They do wrong. I mean, they make mistakes. But I don't think at their core, when you look at the makeup of their government and the makeup of their people, they're not a capricious people, generally speaking.
(16:56):
And look, there's some the wonderful things that Israel has done. You've got Arab Christians who are members of the Knesset. You have Arab Muslims, you have Jews. You have a very diverse... Not very diverse, but a diverse group of people representing different ethnic groups from within Israel in their government. And so I would just say that some of this has clouded the way in which we view the world, in which we view the region, in the way we view evangelism and our call. And so I suppose my call to my staff and my team has just been, "We do need to keep the gospel central to what we do. We don't need to be defending nations and defending political parties and so forth." But at the same time, I am calling them to ask questions around this issue of truth. What is the truth? And I'm not shy about that. We shouldn't be shy about having open discussions about these things.
Will (18:06):
Yeah. Absolutely. As we start to wrap things up, one of the greatest things we can do in this podcast is to highlight some of the stories of these Prisoners of Hope, the namesake of the podcast, the people who seem like they're exiles and captives in the world. And yet in reality, the only thing that they're held captive by is hope, that all will be restored, all will be well. So who are some of these Prisoners of Hope that your team has been meeting with recently? Do you have any one or two just kind of like stories on the top of your mind that jump out as that hope in play in the lives that you're interacting with?
Josh (18:54):
Yeah. Our team just came back from Egypt, and they did this story on one of the cases that we funded. It was a gentleman who was a Muslim from a Muslim background, had lost his vision due to a battery exploding. And he believes that the Lord miraculously healed him. And he came to faith in Christ, and his family immediately took away his inheritance. They kicked him out of his home, and then the community around him realized what had happened and prevented him from working. And so we were able to buy him this little tuk-tuk, and this is how he makes money. He drives people around Cairo in this tuk-tuk. And my team was saying that his smile was just radiating joy, radiating hope. So here was this man who's lost everything. He's lost his family. He's lost the love and admiration of the community, and yet he, he's got Jesus, and he's got his tuk-tuk.
Will (20:01):
And he's got his tuk tuk. I love it. I love it. That's awesome, man. That's awesome. Well, it's great to look ahead and see all the work that is to be done. So maybe to close, Josh, could you just say a prayer over 2024 and all these things that we've been talking about and [inaudible 00:20:22] that we can mimic in our own prayer lives?
Josh (20:24):
Lord, we commit this year to you, 2024, that we would not make flippant New Year's resolutions. But if there is one, Lord, it would be that we would stay ever close to you, or we pray for those who are suffering for their faith, that they too would be drawn closer to you, that you would use HTP, Help The Persecuted in a way that shields our brothers and sisters and protects them. But together, Lord, that they would be drawn closer to you in the East, and that our brothers and sisters here in the West also to Lord through that suffering, through the story of their suffering would too also be drawn closer to you. And that's our prayer in Jesus' name.
Will (21:14):
Amen. Well, thanks for listening to Prisoners of Hope. For Josh Youssef, this is Will Carlisle. And if you would like to support the work of Help the Persecuted, please visit htp.org. That's htp.org/donate. Thanks for listening. We'll see you next time on Prisoners of Hope.
Josh (21:37):
Thank you for listening to another episode of Prisoners of Hope. Visit us at www.htp.org. Thank you.