In Philadelphia, a whopping 70% of people arrested are represented by public defenders.

In this episode, I speak with Keisha Hudson, the Chief Defender of the Philadelphia Defender Association.

She walks me through the ins and outs of the indigent defense system in Pennsylvania, and how she deals with the lack of funding and support from the legislature.

Pennsylvania stands as one of the only states that provides 0 funding to Public Defenders at the trial level. This lack of funding often forces public defenders to fight the county governments for desperately needed funding. In our conversation, Keisha shares with us her fight for funding in Montgomery County.

Despite the lack of funding, Keisha will show us how she is able to lead the Philadelphia Defender Association to be renowned as one of the best offices in the state despite the lack of support.

With her expertise and passion, Keisha was a fantastic guest to discuss the challenging cases Public Defenders can face and how failing to fund Public Defense rested at the heart of the Kids for Cash Scandal in Luzerne County.

Key Topics and Takeaways:

• Keisha's background and where she fits into the system. [0:32]
• How public defenders are using strategic advocacy. [9:27]
• Building relationships with media. [13:20]
• The role of restorative justice. [19:33]
• Why Philadelphia has such a strong public defense system. [41:45]
• What's going to bring change? [38:38]
• Where Keisha wants public defense to go. [48:24]

Guest:

Keisha Hudson, Chief Defender Philadelphia Defender Association

Resources:

Forward Justice

Philly Defenders

Pennsylvania Committee on racial and Gender and Bias in the Justice System

Task Force and Advisory Committee on Services to Indigent Criminal Defendants

Cash for Kids Scandal

Lawsuit Against Luzerne County

Memorable Quotes:

"If you are looking to do public defense and you want to learn how to be an incredible trial lawyer, then come to Philadephia. We have earned and enjoyed a reputation for our zealous advocacy in and out of the courtroom." (1:58, Keisha)

"We are appointed in every case where someone cannot afford counsel. And when you have an office that's not funded and resourced, it presents a significant constitutional challenge in meeting those requirements of zealous and effective advocacy." (5:29, Keisha)

"You can find something redeeming about every human being." (18:02, Keisha)

"I think if you balance the scales and if you have a well-funded, well-resourced public defender office who can push those issues and not fear political repercussions from county commissioners or from the bench, you are able to make a better impact." (36:54, Keisha)

"If we truly prevent crime and lower crime rates and impact public safety, then we need to reinvest in solutions we know work and in a robust social safety net." (47:44, Keisha)

Contact Hunter Parnell:

[email protected]

Instagram

www.publicdefenseless.com

In today's episode, I speak with Stephen Hanlon, who has been working for over 30 years to drive forward public interest law.

With the depth of his experience to back him up, he'll explain how data is the key to pushing forward legislation and law suits that can help to reshape and empower public defense.

When advocating for a change to any system, there has to be mutli-faceted approaches. Some people respond well to the emotional stories. For others, it is data they find the most compelling, and that is what Stephen brings to the table. Data to help bolster the compelling stories of defenders and their clients from around the country.

Stephen Hanlon holds a tremendous amount of wisdom and his passion for bettering the system will inspire you to take action!

Key Topics and Takeaways:

• How Stephen made his way into the public defense system. [9:37]
• Handling states that won't listen to data. [20:42]
• Case refusal. [25:31]
• Why the public defense system needs business plans. [27:14]
• Will we ever be in a place where public defenders only take the cases they can handle? [33:19]
• How contract-dependent states should be handled. [52:24]
• A message from Stephen to the future generations of attorneys. [58:57]

Guest:

Stephen Hanlon, a leader in Public Interest Law over the last 50 years

Resources:

Lawyer Hanlon

Missouri Study

Louisiana Study

Oregon Study

Colorado Study

Rhode Island Study

Indiana Study

Texas Study

New Mexico Study

State of Louisiana v Covington

State of Missouri V Waters

Equal Defense Act of 2019

Memorable Quotes:

"Are we willing to live in a society that reflects the principles that we say we value?" (5:56, Hunter)

"I want a lever. I want to be the leveraging force to incentivize and indeed force change." (13:01, Stephen)

"The whole problem with this thing is that there's no business plan for the criminal processing system. We should have never agreed to do this." (27:14, Stephen)

"Without an adequate defense lawyer, a court is not properly constituted." (31:36, Stephen)

"Implore your representatives to ask questions besides guns and abortions." (39:06, Hunter)

"The federal is the floor, the states are the ceiling. Go for the ceiling!" (40:06, Stephen)

Contact Hunter Parnell:

[email protected]

Twitter

Instagram

www.publicdefenseless.com

In this special solo episode, I share some thoughts on the first 16 episodes, thoughts from my interactions with people who have reached out, and the direction the show will be going over the next few points

I wanna first thank all the people who have gone through the system who have reached out for help/advice/or to share your story. This project is designed to correct the system so that it helps people like yourself, so thank you!

In light of the nomination hearings for soon to be Justice Jackson, I was yet again struck by the fear of being soft on crime. As I discusss in this episode, the Constitution, the bedrock of the American legal system is incredibly soft on crime. I talk a lot about how we manage our desire for justice and the obligations to protect the rights of people.

Lastly, I cover the danger I see in our legal system continuing to march away from jury trials and instead towards plea deals.

Key Topics and Takeaways:

• Difficulties in building Trust between PDs and clients [1:43]
• Soft on crime policies. [9:55]
• Why jury trials are so important. [13:03]
• The issues with plea deals. [19:09]
• What Hunter has learned from each episode to date. [25:44]
• The importance of supervision. [33:45]
• The intersection of race and class. [45:32]

Memorable Quotes:

"The most consistent thing I hear from people who reach out to me is the mistrust in the indigent defense with public defenders." (1:49, Hunter)

"If our founding fathers wanted to make a harsh on crime policy, a pro-police constitution, I'm going to tell you they couldn't have done a worse job of doing it." (9:55, Hunter)

"The theme is so clear, ladies and gentleman, that we are no longer a system of trials. We are a system of plea deals, and I do not think that bet drives us in the correct direction." (21:29, Hunter)

"If you want public defenders to be better, it's good to have supervision in a lot of cases and have supervising attorneys who have that guiding hand and the knowledge to help people make more informed decisions." (34:48, Hunter)

"If you actually look at the living wage standard in most states and most communities, we don't come anywhere close to giving attorneys to all the people who cannot actually afford them." (46:41, Hunter)

Contact Hunter Parnell:

[email protected]

Twitter

Instagram

www.publicdefenseless.com

16: South Dakota Public Defense w/ Tim Rensch & Bob Pesall

South Dakota is like many states around the country in that there are some public defender offices in the "cities," but the rest of the state is served through an assigned council system.

Today, I talk to two incredibly experienced and knowledgeable assigned councils in the state: Tim Rensch and Bob Pesall.

Each shares a different perspective on public defense in South Dakota, Tim being in an urban area and Bob being in a rural one.

With few outside evaluations of public defense in the state, we go through the nuances and strengths of the system in South Dakota.

Tim and Bob are two extraordinary examples of assigned councils that go above and beyond for their clients and truly care about the quality of the system.

Key Topics and Takeaways:

• How Tim and Bob got into public defense & their roles. [5:49]
• The number of assigned councils in the state. [12:54]
• The Catastrophic Legal Expense Relief Program. [17:43]
• The importance of expert witnesses. [22:02]
• The struggles of those who suffer from addiction and mental illness in the system. [28:54]
• How the debt of cycle perpetuates criminality. [47:02]
• The future direction of public defense in South Dakota. [50:18]

Guests:

Tim Rensch, President Rensch Law Corporation, South Dakota Assigned Counsel,

Bob Pesall, Assigned Counsel, Flanders South Dakota

Resources:

Rensch Law Corporation

Pesall Law Firm

Memorable Quotes:

"I've never called myself a public defender. I always have said I'm a court-appointed lawyer and I've always had great admiration for the public defenders who work the ins and outs of the court system every day." (7:21, Tim)

"It can be a little tricky when you try and weigh the cost-benefit of getting lawyers on board versus the actual seriousness of the case." (17:11, Bob)

"So the judges really, truly want to get people what they need. They just don't want to be burning money on experts that are useless." (25:44, Bob)

"I think meth is a horrible drug. It's the only drug for which you've never heard anybody advocate socially about any useful benefit whatsoever. And it's a shame what happens." (34:25, Tim)

"I think people are indigent. That means that they don't have the money to hire a lawyer. And to me, it does seem unfair to take somebody who is defined as indigent and then force them to pay these attorney's fees. No matter the outcome." (39:47, Tim)

"I think that there are good experiences and bad experiences. The experiences that I've had, and that I'm aware of are mostly good. People want defendants to be represented. They want them to be represented by good lawyers. They don't want to have to redo things three times. And generally, the thought is, is that the system wants to be fair and be good to people." (51:14, Tim)

Contact Hunter Parnell:

[email protected]

Instagram

www.publicdefenseless.com

Meet Anthony Rothert, one of the individuals behind those lawsuits.

Anthony is the Director of Integrated Advocacy at the American Civil Liberties Union of Missouri and is here today to give you the inside scoop on the cases.

You'll learn the ins and outs of the indigent system in this state, from long wait times to high public defender turnover rates.

This episode will leave you with renewed hope that there are people out there working tirelessly to positively change the system for good.

Key Topics and Takeaways:

• Anthony's role in the Missouri criminal justice system and the history of public defense in the state. [4:52]
• How public defender turnover affects indigent clients. [9:32]
• Public defense legislative history in the state. [12:27]
• Ethical dilemmas in the Missouri indigent system. [19:52]
• Anthony dives deep into the class-action lawsuits against the state of Missouri. [32:06]
• Indigent wait times in Missouri. [37:56]
• Goals for the future. [43:03]
• Progressive prosecutors. [50:04]

Guest:

Anthony Rothert, Director of Integrated Advocacy, American Civil Liberties Union of Missouri

Resources:

ACLU of Missouri

2009 Spangenberg Report

1993 Spangenberg Group Report

2005 Spagenberg Group Report

Michael Barret Letter to Gov Nixon

2014 ABA Missouri Workload Study

Memorable Quotes:

"Part of the reason attorneys leave is they're overworked, they are not satisfied by their work because they don't have time to do as good a job as they would like. And they're not even paid well for it." (15:24, Anthony)

"Defendants are faced with a choice. You can proceed without counsel, or you can wait." (38:57, Anthony)

"We will be asking the court to enter a judgment in the case requiring the state to provide enough money so we don't have waitlists." (42:02, Anthony)

"We could decriminalize things. That would solve a lot." (44:11, Anthony)

"It's easy to say that the far-off bad guy is not good. But then when you work with attorneys who work in these offices, you realize, okay, they're doing their job, which is to protect constitutional rights for individuals." (48:09, Hunter)

Contact Hunter Parnell:

[email protected]

Instagram

www.publicdefenseless.com

West Virginia Public Defense with Dana Eddy & Stacey Fragile

When it comes to the public defense system, simple human connection is more important than you might think.

Dana Eddy, Executive Director of West Virginia Public Defender Services, and Stacey Fragile, Chief Public Defender of the 10th Judicial Circuit, are here to prove just that.

In this week's episode, Dana and Stacey speak about their community outreach efforts in the state and how they are making a difference at a local level.

They share their arguments for a holistic defense model and lessening the time people spend in the criminal justice system.

You'll learn that by connecting with people individually and focusing on the root of the problems, the entire public defense system could be changed for good.

Key Topics and Takeaways:

• The structure of public defense in West Virginia and Dana's role in it. [8:08]
• Stacey's role in West Virginia Public Defense. [12:34]
• Community outreach programs in West Virginia. [18:57]
• Drug decriminalization in the state. [28:25]
• Public defense staffing issues in West Virginia. [49:56]
• Stacey & Dana's biggest goals for public defense in the state. [54:44]

Guests:

Dana Eddy, Executive Director of West Virginia Public Defender Services

Stacey Fragile, Chief Public Defender of the 10th Judicial Circuit

Resources:

West Virginia Public Defender Services

Spangenberg Report West Virginia

West Virginia Annual Reports:

https://pds.wv.gov/Documents/FY18%20-%20Annual%20Report.pdf

https://pds.wv.gov/Documents/FY17%20-%20Annual%20Report.pdf

https://pds.wv.gov/Documents/FY16%20-%20Annual%20Report.pdf

Memorable Quotes:

"It's hard to say in the state of West Virginia that we need more money. I do think we need to spend it more intelligently." (14:17, Dana)

"It's always going to be a challenge to get the community to accept individuals who have been convicted of criminal charges that carry with them the stigma of either a sex offense or violent offense." (26:31, Dana)

"The stigma is still there locally with the citizens in terms of all drugs are bad drugs, and until that changes, I don't see us legalizing." (32:45, Stacey)

"If I have one thing on my Christmas wishlist for this season, it would be that we look at a different mechanism for appointing counsel to these cases, but it's going to be hard to convince local judges that they need to give up out of authority, that control, over their courtroom." (47:52, Dana)

"What I would say is there's a lack of people who are really dedicated to public service and the public mission." (52:15, Dana)

"We have to remove the stigma regarding mental health or we're never going to make progress as a society." (1:09:14, Stacey)

Contact Hunter Parnell

[email protected]

Instagram Twitter

www.publicdefenseless.com

From Gideon to Argersinger, much of the legal framework for the public defense came about because of the flaws in Florida public defender system. As one of the only places in the country with elected public defenders, it offers up several quirks that should worry people about the status of public defense in the state.

Today, I speak about this complicated system with Rex Dimmig, Chief Public Defender of the Florida 10th Judicial District and President of the Florida Public Defender Association.

Without glossing over the weaknesses of the system, you'll hear how asking for an attorney may eventually lead to you losing the right to vote, a shortage of investigators and staff, and an increasing number of ways the state makes you pay for a "free" attorney.

Rex gives you a behind-the-scenes glimpse of the Florida criminal justice system while stressing the importance of independence.

Key Topics and Takeaways:

• Rex's background and role in the Florida indigent system. [4:37]
• How a shortage of resources has created a crisis. [9:09]
• Efforts to improve Florida public defense. [13:20]
• Why Florida has elected public defenders. [20:11]
• The problems of a fee-based model. [25:09]
• Exploring the 6th amendment. [36:16]
• What is contributing to the low levels of representation in the state of Florida. [45:00]
• Florida's failure in reducing recidivism.

Guest:

Rex Dimming, Chief Public Defender Florida 10th Judicial District & President of Florida Public Defender Association

Resources:

Florida Public Defender Association

"Despite Common Belief, Floridians Can't Always Get a Free Public Defender."

"Prosecutors, Public Defenders Face Case Backlogs and Smaller Budgets." - The Florida Bar, August 11, 2020

Memorable Quotes:

"We're generally satisfied with the distribution of resources, we're not at all satisfied with the quantity of resources that we are given." (8:34, Rex)

"I understand the concern that particularly in this hyper-partisan era, why some people might have some reservations about the elected process. All I can tell you is here in Florida. We haven't had that problem. The people who run for public defender are folks who are truly dedicated to the cause of indigent criminal defense." (21:10, Rex)

"Next to funding, independence is one of the hardest things to establish and the hardest thing to maintain of any public defender system." (23:06, Hunter)

"There's got to be a serious exploration of ways to increase revenue that are not dependent upon user fees that are just never going to be paid in substantial numbers." (34:55, Rex)

"In the effort to make sure that the worst perpetrators are punished, we create such a sweepingly aggressive punishment system that those who probably shouldn't be given similar results in their life are then straddled with it." (44:34, Hunter)

"What the goal of the criminal justice system has to be is to change people's unlawful conduct. If that's not the goal of your system, then locking somebody up, all that does is guarantee that once they're back out, they're going to re-offend." (52:44, Rex)

In the American conversation, there is a large overlap between class and race. Yet very often, we underplay the role that class plays in the dynamics of our legal system

In today's episode, Hunter chats with Amari Harris, the Equity Diversity and Inclusion Attorney for Virginia Public Defenders to discuss those dynamics and more.

He describes his much-needed position within the Virginia public defense system, the broken payment structure for contract attorneys, the ways in which Virginia prosecutors can engage in trial by ambush, and the important of crafting public messaging around public defense to fit the demographics and needs of the communities they serve.

Amari bridges the gap between practicing public defenders and their clients—helping them effectively approach each client's unique life experiences.

This episode challenges people to constantly think about how messaging around public defense will most effectively get people across the racial and socioeconmic spectrum to care about public defense reform.

Key Topics and Takeaways:

• An overview of the Virginia public defense system & Amari's role within it. [3:04]
• Why many cases don't get an investigation even though they need one. [18:26]
• The negative impacts of "trial by ambush." [21:03]
• Ways that the rural areas are disadvantaged in Virginia. [24:57]
• How Amari handles the massive amount of diversity in the state. [30:58]
• Amari walks you through Virginia indigency standards. [43:55]
• Hunter and Amari dig deep into class arguments. [46:15]
• Amari's goals for a better public defense system of tomorrow in Virginia. [50:01]

Guest:

Amari Harris, Equity Diversity and Inclusion Attorney for Virginia Public Defenders

Resources:

Virginia Defenders

Justice Forward

Gideon's Promise

2016 ACLU report on Prosecutor Power

"Unparalleled Power: Commonwealth's Attorneys, Voters and Criminal Just Reform in Virginia". American Civil Liberties Union. June 2016. At Page 1-5.

Memorable Quotes:

"Being a great lawyer is fantastic, but you could be a great lawyer and a bad public defender if you can't relate to your clients, if you can't engender yourself to the community in some way, then you're doing our clients a disservice." (6:20, Amari)

"If there's one thing that I know from just looking nationally, when you have a flat fee structure like this, you're not getting investigation." (18:09, Hunter)

"Just having someone that thinks a little bit differently than another person in the room makes that other person so much smarter than if they just read about the information." (32:46, Amari)

"If we think of diversity and inclusion only as representing ethnic and racial things, you're missing the point." (34:53, Hunter)

"I think race does dictate a lot of what goes on in the criminal justice system and it's been historic, but if you lead with that, then you will lose a lot of people." (42:59, Amari)

"Every public defender who stays in this long enough will work under blue and red administration. And the idea that you simply have to throw up your hands and go 'well shucks, wait till the guy who agrees with me comes into office' is not workable." (49:30, Hunter)

Right now, approximately 40,000 people are incarcerated for cannabis-related charges, while others are making millions of dollars in the legal industry.

Steve DeAngelo, often considered "the father of the legal industry," has been fighting for reform since the 1970s.

In today's episode, Steve is here to talk about his work to reform both the cannabis industry and state laws through his organization the Last Prisoner Project.

He'll disprove the common misconceptions around cannabis while teaching you the spirit of the plant.

Steve will leave you with a clear image of the ideal cannabis industry and will also give you arguments for cannabis reform to keep in your back pocket.

Just by listening to this episode and sharing the information, you can be a part of the change!

Key Topics and Takeaways:

• What the Last Prisoner Project is and why it's important. [10:33]
• Decriminalization vs. full legalization. [19:53]
• Bringing people who were harmed by cannabis prohibition into the legal industry. [22:19]
• Protecting yourself against the predatory cannabis industry. [29:56]
• Should cannabis reform be a primary issue? [31:40]
• The importance of coalition building. [33:53]
• Exploring faith-based opposition. [40:03]
• Legalization of other psychoactive plants. [49:48]

Guest:

Steve DeAngelo, Father of the Legal Cannabis Industry, Founder of Harborside Dispensary, Founder of the Last Prisoner Project

Resources:

SteveDeAngelo.com

@steve.deangelo

Last Prisoner Project

Norml Cannabis Advocacy Group

Memorable Quotes:

"Every governor in the United States of America has the power to release cannabis prisoners with the stroke of a pen. And we believe that, especially in states where voters have voted to legalize cannabis, that every governor should do so." (12:49, Steve)

"I think that mobilizing people to defend their right to be able to grow cannabis in their own homes is pretty achievable." (31:2, Steve)

"I believe that cannabis is more than just another product. There's no other product that teaches us lessons and that gives us a common value system." (35:55, Steve)

"When you look at the cannabis plant across the breadth of human history, what you find is that every single human culture on this planet has adopted and used this planet successfully almost without exception." (43:13, Steve)

"When you look at the total range of substances that are out there, there's no question that cannabis should not be illegal. It should not be restricted. In fact, cannabis use should be celebrated and promoted because it gives social benefits rather than harms." (50:48, Steve)

"My belief is that if more people around the world consume cannabis, that we're going to end up living in a better world." (58:37, Steve)

Colorado's Doug Wilson has worked in the public defense system for over 40 years, so to say he holds a boatload of knowledge is an understatement!

Colorado has one of the best models of public defense and Doug is one of the people responsible for that success.

In this episode, Doug explains how he worked with the Colorado legislature to create a system built on independence and increase their budget by over 40 million dollars.

You'll also hear about Colorado's weaknesses—poor determination standards, court fees, and a lack of community outreach.

However, Wilson continues to advocate for an improved public defense system in Colorado.

In a world where not everybody gets access to representation and public defenders are overworked and underpaid, Doug Wilson is tenaciously working to change that.

Key Topics and Takeaways:

• Why Colorado's public defense system so well and how Doug laid that foundation [4:05]
• Public defense is a part of public safety [12:35]
• Defining recidivism [13:58]
• Doug and I dive deep into The Colorado Project, a recent workload analysis [28:16]
• Doug breaks down Colorado's determination standards [32:09]
• Colorado's struggle to provide adequate mental health services [50:30]
• The negative impacts of horizontal representation [1:04:06]

Guests:

Doug Wilson, Chief Public Defender of Aurora Municipal Defender Office and former Chief Public Defender of The Colorado Office of the State Public Defender

Resources:

NLADA Aurora Public Defender Assessment

ACLU Report on Colorado Municipal Courts

Office of the State Public Defender of Colorado

Aurora Office of the Public Defender

Do You Qualify for a Public Defender in Colorado?

Colorado Workload Study

Memorable Quotes:

"Indigent clients must be given the same constitutionally effect and officiant counsel as folks who can afford to pay for their attorney. That's huge. You don't see that level of independence or those mandates in very many systems around the country." (6:38, Doug)

"We're part of the public safety discussion as well, because for every person that we can keep out of the system or keep from coming back into the system, by our intervention or our representation, or our alternative sentencing plan… that protects the public." (12:45. Doug)

"50% of the bill of rights is there to protect the individual against the government." (22:00, Doug)

"So for my listeners, indigent does not mean just the homeless person on the side of the road with two pennies to rub together. It is the family next door struggling with medical debt, it is the family across the street who just got into a fender bender, it is the guy at work who just got laid off to no fault of his own. It is every ordinary people who will face the brunt of the legal system without an attorney." (38:07, Hunter)

"There are only five dedicated, municipal structured public defender offices in the country. Think about that." (49:59, Doug)

"When a person's livelihood is dependent upon them not realizing they're doing something bad, they will very rarely realize they're doing something bad." (46:34, Hunter)