Today, Hunter sat down with Nick Barber, author of a recent piece in the magazine In These Times called "In Small-Town Georgia, A Broken Taillight Can Lead to Spiraling Debt". In his investigation and writing, Nick uncovered a corrupt private probation system that keeps people under control of the state for years in what appears to be an effort to generate revenue for Clayton, Georgia and for the company.

As is so often the case, Nick highlights the story of two poor people who lives were upended by this abusive system of debt, and it is clear throughout the work that at no point in time did the city ask, "Does this actually improve public safety?" From this episode, Hunter hopes you are able to walk away with a better understanding of the insidious ways in which we have forced small towns around the country have trapped countless Americans in a cycle of poverty through the crushing force of the criminal legal system.

Guests:

Nick Barber, Journalist and Former Investigator for the Southern Center for Human Rights

Key Topics and Takeaways:

Nick's work with the Southern Center for Human Rights and finding this story [7:15]

Nick's advice to those who want to get into Court Watching [11:00]

Background on Clayton, Georgia and Municipal Courts [13:50]

The Impacts of Private Probation on Ms. Lynn Davis [18:10]

Where is the Public Defender in Clayton, Georiga? [27:00]

The Impacts of Judge Sneed on revenue generated through fines and fees [31:38]

How the system trapped a 72 year old woman in years of debt [35:30]

How Georgia tried to address Private Probation [37:30]

How Clayton Georgia worked around the State's remedy [40:00]

Private Probation and Predatory Municipal Finance [44:50]

The impacts of smaller federal spending on small town America [50:00]

Has the private probation system improved [54:30]

Will things change in the state? [58:00]

Resources:

In These Times Article

The Bonds of Inequality

Conditions in a New Mexico Jail

Follow Nick on Twitter

Contact Hunter Parnell:

[email protected]

Instagram

Twitter

www.publicdefenseless.com

Today, Hunter spoke with Sharone Mitchell Jr., Chief Public Defender in Cook County about a few extremely timely topics: Guns and Bail Reform.

Born and raised in Chicago, Sharone understands the needs of his community and you can easily see how his experience helps to inform the way he pushes for and speaks about reform in Cook County. At the center of those pushes are tackling the issue of gun violence in the city without feeding America's addiction to mass incarceration. Hunter really enjoyed the nuanced conversation about the ways in which gun violence and possession can be addressed without further harming poor Black and Hispanic communities in the city.

Lastly, Hunter and Sharone took a deep dive on the newest massive criminal justice reform legislation in Illinois, the Pre Trial Fairness Act, what it does, how it helps, and how people are already blaming it for everything before the Act even goes into effect.

Guests:

Sharone Mitchell Jr., Chief Public Defender, Cook County

Key Topics and Takeaways:

From Growing up in Chicago to Being the Chief Defender [5:30]

What People Misunderstand About Those in the Legal System [9:00]

Why Sharone Wanted to Be a Public Defender [11:00]

Differences and Similarities Between Cook County Public Defense and the Rest of the State [16:05]

The Nuance of the Gun Control Debate [24:00]

The Realities of Gun Restrictions in Cook County [29:00]

Why it is So Difficult to Fight the Status Quo on Gun Possession [38:00]

The Details of the Illinois Pre-Trial Fairness Act [46:50]

Resources:

NYSRPA v Bruen

BRIEF OF THE BLACK ATTORNEYS OF LEGAL AID, THE BRONX DEFENDERS, BROOKLYN DEFENDER SERVICES

6th Amendment Center Report on Illinois

Sharone's Piece in the Nation on the impact of Gun Laws

Sharone on First Person podcast

Recent Op-ed pieceby two Cook County Assistant Public Defenders

Recent Block Club Chicago storyon some of the issues

Recent Injustice Watch storyon even more issues with gun possession charges

Here is a basic overview of the Pretrial Fairness Act. The state is ending money bond on Jan. 1, but there are other important reforms.

Follow the Cook County PD Office on Twitter

Follow Sharone on Twitter

Contact Hunter Parnell:

[email protected]

Instagram

Twitter

www.publicdefenseless.com

Today, Hunter sat down with Lori James-Townes, Executive Director of the largest Public Defense Association in the country, the National Association of Public Defense. After conversations with Jeff Sherr, Heather Hall, and countless other members of NAPD, listeners will likely be familiar with the organization, but Hunter wanted to speak with Lori to highlight a specific aspect of the association and the Public Defense movement at large: it is about more than lawyers. Lori is not an attorney by trade, and her experience in social work reminds us how essential it is to build public defender teams with more than just attorneys in mind.

Without question, zealous advocacy in the court room is the primary focus of Public Defense, but that advocacy can only go so far with a team of strictly lawyers. Paralegals, social workers, investigators, administrative staff, and others, all are essential to maximizing the representation clients can expect to receive. Enjoy this conversation with Lori and Hunter as they explore how to continue to expand the NAPD to cities and states around the country!

Guests:

Lori James-Townes, Executive Director of the National Association of Public Defense

Key Topics and Takeaways:

Lori's Journey to Become the Executive Director [5:58]

What We can Learn from the Brittney Griner Case [17:10]

Why Lori Wanted to be the Executive Director Role [22:30]

Pushing For Policy Reform at the National Level [32:00]

Bridging Gap in the Generational Differences in Public Defenders [36:50]

How to Lift up the Voice of those Impacted by Mass Incarceration [42:51]

Improving Public Defender Media Relations [50:08]

Improving Outreach in Law School and Improving Law School's Curriculum [1:02:08]

Resources:

National Association of Public Defense

Follow NAPD on Twitter

Follow NAPD on Facebook

Contact Hunter Parnell:

[email protected]

Instagram

Twitter

www.publicdefenseless.com

Today, Hunter sat down with Carlos Martinez, the Chief Defender in the Miami Public Defender Office. With more than 30 years of experience as a Public Defender in Miami, Carlos Martinez has seen a little bit of everything in the office, but his experience extends past the court room. As a native son of Miami, Carlos relies on his personal experiences to help shape his offices outreach into the community. In speaking with Carlos I was struck by the thoughtful manner in which he approaches his responsibilities as an elected official and the importance of being an office that is constantly reaching out into the community.

In this discussion, you'll hear Carlos talk about his early influences that drove him towards public defense, the challenges of staffing and funding shortages that his office currently faces, and much much more!

Guests:

Carlos Martinez, Chief Public Defender, 11th Judicial Circuit of Florida

Key Topics and Takeaways:

How Carlos Got to be the Chief Public Defender [6:22]

Inspiring the Hispanic Community Through Action and Outreach [17:10]

Successes in Community Outreach [23:10]

The Impacts of Being an Elected Official [28:30]

Manning and Funding Shortages [40:47]

Why the Judiciary is so Reluctant for Change [49:30]

Why is There a Shortage of Prosecutors in Miami [55:00]

Sustaining the Victories [58:00]

Resources:

Law Offices of the Miami Public Defender

Consequences of Arrest in Miami

Record Sealing and Expungement

Follow Carlos on Twitter

Contact Hunter Parnell:

[email protected]

Instagram

Twitter

www.publicdefenseless.com

If you believed the many legal dramas in TV reflected actual court proceedings, you would be under the impression that our legal system is driven by the battle of wits between two lawyers at trial. If, however, you examine how our legal system operates, you would see that long ago our system became one where trials are rare. Instead, it is the plea bargain sitting at the bedrock of our legal system, but how did this happen? How did our country go from outright rejecting plea bargains so that a jury trial may happen to a country that actively punishes those who seek out a trial?

All that and more is at the forefront of this discussion between Hunter and Professor Carissa Byrne Hessick. Our guest is a law professor at the University of North Carolina Chapel Hill and author of the book Punishment Without Trial: Why Plea Bargaining is bad Deal. As the title suggests and as many of my guests know, plea bargaining is likely not the best for the accused, for the alleged victims, or for society at large, but what is lost when we allow justice to be negotiated behind closed doors? Tune in to this episode to find out!

Guests:

Carissa Byrne Hessick, Anne Shea Ransdell and William Garland "Buck" Ransdell, Jr. Distinguished Professor of Law, University of North Carolina Chapel Hill

Key Topics and Takeaways:

Why Carissa Wanted to Write this Book [6:00]

Carissa's viewpoints on the legal system prior to writing [8:00]

How did Plea Bargaining become so prevalent? [13:37]

How lawyers reacted to the rise of Plea Bargaining [17:00]

Santabello v New York and SCOTUS' endorsement of Plea Bargaining [20:00]

The Trial Penalty [22:00]

The Role of The Chief Justice in Court Admin [25:00]

Picking Apart Arguments for Plea Deals [28:00]

How Plea Deals can Hide the Truth [31:00]

Do Prosecutors have too much power and too many responsibilities? [35:00]

The Stories of Scott Hechinger as a Brooklyn Defender [39:00]

How Arizona circumvents Brady Requirements [45:00]

The Discretionary Nature of our Legal System via Jury Trials [51:00]

"Why Would you Plea Guilty to Something you Didn't Do? [57:00]

How Could Law School do Better? [1:12:00]

What to do about Plea Bargaining [1:20:00]

Resources:

Purchase Punishment Without Trial!!

UNC Chapel Hill Bio

Follow Carissa on Twitter

Contact Hunter Parnell:

[email protected]

Instagram

Twitter

www.publicdefenseless.com

Justin Heim - Staff Development Program Specialist (Training Division), Wisconsin State Public Defender - joins this episode to breaks down what a social worker really is and helps us define their role in the legal system.

Trauma is something that is not only affecting the community but the agents working to help as well. Justin believes a renaissance is beginning as our culture accepts that emotional intelligence is an integral part to our functionality, both in and out of the system. Without pausing to process, we can easily endanger our community by not coming into these high risk situations with the compassion they deserve. I hope you leave today with a new perspective of our culture's craving for punishment.

Key Takeaways:

• What is a Social Worker? [8:20]
• A new approach: Shifting towards emotional intelligence [12:45]
• The overlooked reality that experiencing trauma is inevitable for social workers [13:25]
• The traumatic imprint of a situation will manifest [15:30]
• Crisis response teams: assessing if someone is a danger to themselves [19:00]
• Retraining for moments of crisis: Teaming with Police to de-escalate situations [22:30]
• Making difficult decisions on behalf of people who need help in moments of crisis [25:00]
• When does my right to choose something start to impede on your right to safety? [29:00]
• Social workers are necessary to help attorney's understand the client's story [37:00]
• Community correction agents and pre investigations for sentencing [46:22]
• Compassion fatigue and moral injury in the public defenders [48:45]
• The work is never ending so you do have take the time to care for yourself [58:00]
• Social workers will intuitively get involved in the transformative justice movement [62:10]
• Helping victims understand that punishment is not always useful [64:30]
• Punishment is not always the solution [68:00]

Resources:

Email: [email protected]

https://www.wispd.gov/

Memorable Quotes:

"It has to change because…it's not transactional law, criminal defense is not transactional law, you are working with human beings, human beings who have experienced trauma. You will experience trauma, right? Your colleagues are traumatized. This work takes a lot out of people and we need to acknowledge that."[13:25]

"If we went with law enforcement, they would often let us lead, right, as far as building that rapport and then if it came to that point of like it seems like this isn't safe…almost every single time it was not any confrontation necessary. It might have been against the person's will, they did not want to come but I feel like if the officers are skilled enough and working together with community mental health folks that is really the best situation." [20:37]

"Sometimes when someone is saying "'I don't want to be hospitalized, I don't want to take my medication" previously sometimes they told you "when I say this, please give me my medication, please hospitalize me" right so, it's not as easy as like, the best interest verses what their expressed interest was because sometimes those things get confused depending on the situation." [25:27]

"We are educated to find punishment pleasurable, if we can see another and judge them as wrong, If we have some rules and we know this is right and this is wrong therefor I get to say you're wrong and you should be punished it increases my sense of rightness." [67:40]

There are only so many victories that can happen for Public Defense in a court room. Of course, we should the goal should be zealous advocacy and the best outcome for each client, but a single victory in a single case is not enough to stem the tide of Mass Incarceration. Real victories for the accused come at the policy level, and that is what this week's conversation is all about. Joining Hunter this week is Brad Haywood and Bryan Kennedy, two public defenders in Virginia and members of the non-partisan policy advocacy group, Justice Forward Virginia!

Throughout the conversation, both Brad and Bryan highlight the importance of brining the public defender voice to the policy table. Without that voice, policy makers are often directed by the only criminal justice stakeholders in the room: Police and Prosecutors. Organizations like Justice Forward, while difficult to start and sustain, are an essential factor for those looking to zealously fight for public defense reform at the level where small changes make the most impact.

Guests:

Brad Haywood, Chief Public Defender, Arlington VA

Bryan Kennedy, Assistant Public Defender, Fairfax VA

Key Topics and Takeaways:

Introduction to Brad, Bryan, and Justice Forward [6:30]

How to fill the knowledge gap between the theory of law and the practice of law [12:45]

The importance of having a public defender at the policy table [15:40]

Policy Victories for Justice Forward [21:10]

Sustaining Victories and Understanding the Political Landscape of Virginia [28:19]

Lies perpetuated by the media about Criminal Justice Reform [37:00]

Impacts of Virginia Laws on Racial Minorites [42:50]

How to Best Message Progressive Criminal Justice Policies [49:50]

Advice for those seeking Policy Reform [57:50]

Resources:

Justice Forward Virginia

Example of Media Bias Around Shooting in Arlington

Follow them on twitter:

Brad Haywood @BradleyRHaywood

Bryan Kennedy @kennedybtd

Justive Foward Virginia

Contact Hunter Parnell:

[email protected]

Instagram

Twitter

www.publicdefenseless.com

Jenny Andrews is the Director of Training for California's Indigent Defense Improvement Division. She's here today to teach you what public defense is truly like from the defender's side.

Public defenders are often trapped between a rock and a hard place because they want to provide equal representation access, yet are expected to work too many hours for not enough pay. Because of this, "martyr complex" is prevalent in this field.

You'll learn that public defense is an area of service, but that this often comes at the expense of the defender's mental health. Jenny will walk you through how she's helping implement self-care practices into nation wide and why self-care is vital to providing zealous representation!

Throughout this episode, remember that ultiamtely, it is the client who sufferes when the public defender suffers in silence

Key Topics and Takeaways:

• Jenny's background and how she got started in public defense. [7:50]
• Why Jenny burnt out and left the industry. [14:18]
• Moral injury. [21:58]
• Self-care in public defense. [26:32]
• Secondary trauma. [33:36]
• How Jenny has been building a culture of self-care. [42:50]
• How individual offices are promoting self-care. [48:28]
• The line between service and self-care. [53:14]

Guest:

Jenny Andrews, Director of Training, Indigent Defense Improvement Division, Office of the State Public Defender, California

Resources:

Be Sustained

Body Keeps the Score

Memorable Quotes:

"It is the client who suffers the most when public defenders are run ragged and into the ground." (4:33, Hunter)

"As a public defender, most of us come into this work because we see the way that the system treats the most vulnerable people, and we wanna provide a high level of representation to them. And then we encounter all of these obstacles and things that block us and prevent us from being able to do that. And it's really, really taxing and demoralizing." (18:14, Jenny)

"Having great self-care tools is like knowing how to change a tire, but you drive every day on a road that is covered in potholes. So you are constantly needing to change your tires." (31:48, Hunter)

"If you are not letting your people take care of yourself, the mission will fall apart. They will not perform." (53:39, Hunter)

"I think that if we are taking care of ourselves and each other, we are better equipped to take care of the people that we represent." (58:45, Jenny)

"We have to break out of this idea that caging people fixes social problems." (1:02:02, Jenny)

Contact Hunter Parnell:

[email protected]

Instagram

www.publicdefenseless.com

This Week, Hunter spoke with the awesome and powerful, Brendon Woods. As Chief Public Defender in Alameda County, Brendon is one of the loudest and strongest advocates for criminal justice reform in the entire country.

On this episode, Brendon and Hunter discuss how Brendon was able to cultivate the culture both in and out of his office that enabled wide sweeping success at crafting meaningful reforms. From his work in the state house to his work in the Oakland community, Brendon has seen success after success because of his ability to show the local community the essential role that Public Defense places in community health. From his voter registration program to his high school, his team has helped to demonstrate for all the extent to what Public Defense could be.

Brendon's vision and drive to implement a truly holistic model of public defense is one that all public defenders should strive to meet.

Key Topics and Takeaways:

Brendon's path to becoming a Chief Defender [11:12]

Developing a Positive Reputation in Alameda County [13:44]

VOICE and LYRIC Programs [15:15]

Immigration Representation Work [21:00]

How to Keep Getting Resources to Grow [25:00]

Public Defender Funding Disparities [27:00]

Battle with The Alameda DA's [31:30]

The Recall of Chesa Boudin and the Role of DAs [37:50]

Policy Victories in the State [46:10]

Pushback To Policy Reform [51:50]

Discussion on California Public Defense [57:00]

Guests:

Brendon Woods, Chief Public Defender, Alameda County, California

Resources:

Alameda Public Defender Office

Establishing Immigration Representation

Partners For Justice

V.O.I.C.E Program

L.Y.R.I.C Program

SB310 – which allows people with felony convictions to serve on juries. Brendon published an op-ed about this bill.

AB3070 – which made it more difficult for racist prosecutors to kick black people off juries. He also wrote an op-ed on this.

Battles with the DA

• • Last year, one of our lawyers moved to recuse the entire DA's office from a murder case because of extensive misconduct in other cases.It was a crazy, innovative motion.
  • The DA's office retaliated against us by refusing to engage in any informal plea discussions.
  • Within days, the DA's office stops its illegal retaliation.
  • The recusal motion was denied and the client was acquitted at trial.

Contact Hunter Parnell:

[email protected]

Instagram

Twitter

www.publicdefenseless.com

38: Michigan Public Defense w/ Kristen Staley

Ready for a refreshing dose of positivity?

In this episode, Hunter speaks with Kristen Staley, the Executive Director of the Michigan Indigent Defense.

Kristen maps out the complexities of a committee system, sharing the unique challenges and benefits that having individual offices hold. It turns out that the quality of services varies from county to county.

She'll also explain how she is working in the legislature to transform the future of Michigan public defense. Kristen has many goals for the state that she lays out in this episode.

Overall, Kristen conveys an attitude of hope and excitement for the future. She is certain that Michigan indigent defense will change for the better.

Key Topics and Takeaways:

• Kristen's background and how she got into Michigan public defense. [10:53]
• Handling cases of individuals 18-25. [15:26]
• The Michigan Model of public defense. [24:08]
• Michigan's indigency standards. [36:17]
• The commission and state's response to the Sixth Amendment Center reports. [39:39]
• How Kristen works with the legislature. [44:35]
• The difference between being an advocate and a policy maker. [48:39]
• Kristen's goals for Michigan indigent defense. [59:43]

Guest:

Kristen Staley, Executive Director Michigan Indigent Defense Commission

Resources:

Michigan Indigent Defense Commission

Race to the Bottom NLADA Report

2018 Wayne County Report

2019 Wayne County Report

Prof Eve Primus Observations on Michigan Court Rooms

Memorable Quotes:

"Change can happen and will happen if you keep on pushing." (10:23, Hunter)

"18 is not a magic number, that there is science and there is research and youth are not adults." (17:07, Kristen)

"The criminal justice system, just like any other type of system, is run by humans. Right? And we all have these biases, no matter what it is, but we have to be able to understand and recognize them." (18:21, Kristen)

"I think that having such a large group of stakeholders beyond the commission helps ensure that we're actually hearing all the voices and makes sure that we're not forgetting things." (35:15, Kristen)

"I think there's a lot of very good activists who push these types of things forward, but not every great activist is also a great policy person. I think that's very different. And not every great policy person is a great activist." (51:47, Hunter)

"Public defenders care about this work. At the end of the day they are advocates." (1:04:35, Kristen)

Contact Hunter Parnell:

[email protected]

Instagram

www.publicdefenseless.com