After years of rejections, Kameron's early book deals ran into problems when her publishers either folded or went bankrupt, Instead of quitting, she kept going. And going. In the decade since, Hurley has signed new deals, built a fanbase, and even won a Hugo.

We sit down with her today to ask hard-hitting questions: Why don't we just quit? Why keep doing it? Why not 'just' self publish? And finally, was it all worth it?

Nota bene: SPECIAL THANKS to Casmer Maliszewski for helping us clean up the audio on this episode! We experienced a lot of distortion and he kindly stepped in to help make it a more comfortable listen.

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SHOW NOTES:·

• Long career that begin with a slew of rejections, followed by getting picked up by publishers who either went bankrupt, folded, or refused to pay. Kameron now claws a fierce living on the midlist, with a hard-earned fanbased and a chest of publishing war stories / wisdom.·
• Sunyi reads a bit from Kameron Hurley’s essay, ON PERSISTENCE:· "I felt like I'd failed at everything. Life was a ruin. I found myself living in a spare bedroom at a friend's house, unemployed, deep in medical debt, staring at yet another novel three-quarters of the way finished. When I opened my laptop, the sticky note still stared back at me. Persistence, in all things, in writing, in life. I finished the book. I'd reached a point in my life where I didn't know how to do anything else but finish the fucking book."·
• The importance of being ‘easy to work with’ in the industry·
• But also the importance of knowing your worth and fighting for your career·
• Choosing walk away from bad deals, unsupportive agents or editors, and bad film options (yes you can do all of this!)·
• Why did Kameron choose to champion transparency on her blog? Because the skewed publishing perspective that many writers put forward made her feel like a failure.·
• Examples of midlist writers who broke out to find big success·
• The importance of pen names·
• The importance of giving away arcs·
• WHY DON’T YOU JUST SELF PUBLISH? The dreaded question that we swim through repeatedly in conversations.·
• Why do we keep doing it? Why should we persevere?· Defining personal success, and finding joy in the process.·
• Sunyi’s final question: WAS IT WORTH IT?

If you've ever been curious about alternate or adjacent writing careers, this episode is for you! David "D.V." Bishop got his start 30 years ago writing for comics and IP franchises, before later moving to tv/film scriptwriting. These days, he's back to books and is now an award-winning historical crime novelist.

Bringing to bear years of varied experience, he walks us through the trenches and pitfalls of an industry that makes trad pub look like child's play--including the kind of working conditions you can expect, and the kind of money you might be able to earn.

Oh, and Scott gets to ask his burning question at the end: why do some big-budget tv franchises turn out so crappy?!

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Full notes:·

• 30+ year career.
• Started out writing for comics, then moved to tie-in novels, then wrote for film and television· Is currently an award-winning historical crime novelist·
• David has worn a LOT of hats·
• How do you get started as a screenwriter?
• David talks about the paths into that field for television versus film.·
• Explanation of a brutal, competitive, cut-throat industry·
• How does film and TV compare to trad publishing? Much harsher!· Limited negotiation and power in script writing / IP work·
• Rights and creativity and anything created is signed over forever·
• How has the landscape of publishing changed in the past 30 years? Mostly good or mostly bad?·
• The advent of self publishing, the rise of electronic submissions, the accessibility of information·
• The financial side of script-writing: what does it make, what can you expect?·
• Wait…. You guys make HOW MUCH?! O.O·
• Good pay if writers can endure the crushing pressure and difficult environment·
• If you want to break into film, you need an agent, and probably also a lawyer, and a manager.·
• Tie in novels: how much they earn (enough to support you, not enough to retire or quit)·
• Novelisations of films: Tough gig, potentially good money·
• ALWAYS sign a contract first·
• The pitfalls of trying to learn screenwriting / doing your own book adaptations as an author·
• Scott’s burning question: why are some big budget shows SO awful? What went wrong?·
• And finally: Why David is happy to be back writing novels, why he enjoys it, and why he genuinely aspires to be a well-supported midlist writer.·
• “Either you're the skyrocket and then the hope is you can sustain that thereafter, or else you have to be the little engine that could and you just have to keep chugging away and putting out the books and raising the quality and raising awareness and getting out there and pimping your book and hustle, hustle, hustle.”

Because it's NOT bad, not all the time ;-) After Dr. Kerry's brilliant but hard-hitting previous episode, we wanted to return after summer with something gentler, funnier, and possibly even wholesome. This week, please join us as we talk to award-winning fantasy author RJ Barker. Despite dropping out of high school, suffering a chronic illness, losing one agent, and dying on sub , RJ has found his feet on the shaky ship of trad publishing. These days, he has 9 published books under his belt and many more on the way. We talk about about the clash of art versus business, the ever-present spectre of self-doubt, and how to keep your sanity and perspective in an industry that very easily strips both away. And above all, the 'pervasive and remaining joy' that is writing--the real reason we all got into this business.

In 2008, Dr. Kerry Spencer Pray watched her book die on submission after the financial crash halted publishing acquisitions. She then decided to do a PhD, focusing her research on what makes books sell. After studying hundreds of factors, Dr. Kerry Pray zeroed in on a handful that seemed correlated with book sales in some way. All of them were marketing related, and often linked to a book’s advance (which is itself often representative of the support a novel gets). Let's dig in!

• Dr. Pray talks to us about the data she collected, the methods she used, and the research she produced in pursuit of this project, focusing primarily on the YA market
• End result: she developed an algorithm that could predict the success or failure of a given novel, with about 75% accuracy
• Her other big find: the minimum marketing viability threshold (ie, the point at which a book has a shot at selling well, which is defined in this case as selling within expectations relative to its advance)
• Books can be assigned a marketing viability score, and books which fall below that threshold have zero chance of success (that she has studied so far)
• Most well-marketed books still don’t succeed, but they have a significantly better chance of doing so, and when they do succeed, they sell extremely well
• We discuss various factors and angles of this data / research
• Dr. Pray lays out the eight factors correlated with book sale success
• We discuss outliers, or apparent outliers, and the “myth” of self made success that accompanies very good-selling books
• Sunyi’s theory on why high concept books might thrive better in this kind of environment, and also her metaphor for books as rocket launches (the concept of trying to get into orbit)
• Scott’s speculation on whether publishers run these algorithms themselves, and why or why not they might do so
• The surprising importance of Twitter, and the irrelevance of star ratings
• General chatter, and where you can find Dr. Pray to get in touch

This week, the wise and witty Ella McLeod sits down to talk with us about the hard-hitting, ever-prevalent topic of whiteness in publishing, including in our own podcast (!) and dissecting the dreaded Diversity Tick-Box. (And if you're curious about that title, we do explain it in-episode!) But first, we also chat about some of the differences between YA and adult publishing, and her experiences as an actress, poet, podcaster, and now a debut author. Also, Ella turns the tables at the end to ask what our editors/publishers think of us running this podcast.

• Miles (Christian) Cameron, and his 25+ year journey through trad publishing
• Started off co-writing thrillers with his father for a lot of money, until that genre changed almost overnight
• Surviving the sudden death of a writing career, and starting over from scratch
• Monetary differences between genres (historical, fantasy, scifi, thriller, litfic)
• When to negotiate with publishers on ideas and when to pursue passion projects
• Balancing personal artistic integrity against publishing’s commercial expectations
• Surviving advance to advance, and slowly growing your readership as a midlist author
• Advice given to Sunyi: Write what’s in your heart but with your practical hat on
• Staying with your publishers for years, versus shopping around
• Books “unflopping” later in life
• Cameron’s specific social media strategy that does increase his sales, and which he uses consistently
• “wrong” ways to approach self promotion, and finding the balance
• Writing/Fighting and enjoying your “author persona”
• Publishers think your midlist book is important for about a week after launch, but Miles believes it is important (in a sales sense) for 90 days
• Thus: The 90/60/30 approach that Miles uses for self promotion, completely on his own and without publisher involvement—and how precisely to run it
• An exact presales figure that Miles looks for in his own books (relevant to his books and where he is with his backlog/career)
• Paid adverts and where/when Miles chooses to use them
• The difference between SIZE of following, and ENGAGEMENT of following. Influencers versus book clubs, as an example
• Authors are not competing with authors!
• What IS a publisher’s cut on your books?!
• Do publishers know exactly what they’re making? Miles suggests probably not
• The importance of versatility for authors
• Why you HAVE to love what you’re doing
• Miles’ military experience – how it impacted and influenced his fiction
• The most common combat writing tropes that drive Miles nuts
• Some thoughts on how Miles writes historical, versus fantasy (not that different!)

• The founding of Illumicrate, and Daphne’s story
• A bit about book production, what they can or can’t do
• How does IC choose and acquire books for its crates?
• What IS a crate book – is there such a thing?
• Buliding a book community
• “Social media doesn’t help” but it does?
• Crate market in the usa – why so small?
• UK versus USA book culture
• Setting up an independent press, makign the leap from Illumicrate to Daphne Press
• The importance of editors, and why Daphne wanted to get that exactly right
• What exactly do trad editors DO? Scott breaks it down.
• Editors jobs are complex and very poorly paid
• Why Daphne doesn’t acquire world rights atm (it’s a good and noble reason!)
• What Daphne looks for in author submissions
• Daphne’s surprising tip for how you best catch her attention with your submission!
• Why Daphne Press doesn’t currently accept indie submissions (but hopes to in future!)
• Daphne’s love for indie books and authors generally

Huge thanks to our listeners for helping us hit 50,000 total downloads! We are incredibly humbled by the interest and support so far. This episode was recorded during the week while Scott was off for paternity leave, and only features Sunyi as host, with R.R. Virdi (author of THE FIRST BINDING) and Wayne Santos (author of THE CHIMERA CODE) as dual guests, and is more wide-ranging and conversational that some of our other episodes as a result.Content warning for open discussion of drug use, mental health, suicidal ideation, and probably a few other things. SHOW NOTES: ⦁ Ronnie's story of selling a 350k trad debut, on proposal (unwritten), without an agent, to Tor⦁ Wayne's story of near misses, 600 rejections, 15 years of rejection, and the launching into the Covid pandemic⦁ Mental health - how do we cope (if we do?) as writers⦁ How we frame success or failure, as individuals⦁ Authors writing under horrendous pressure and circumstances⦁ Diaspora discussion - writing as diaspora authors in a landscape that often feels hostile and contradictory⦁ Deviations into colonialist history in various SE Asian countries⦁ The toxicity of Twitter and other concentrated social media groups⦁ The souring relationship between authors and readers in the modern era⦁ Twitter's cycle of unending apologies⦁ Some positives about reader/author interactions

So you've signed a book deal, and the book contract has arrived. What does it mean, what can you ask for or changed, and how involved should you be? What organisations can help, if any? Also, why don't we have a writer's union / writer's guild, and how might we get one in future?

Today, we sit down with Julia Vee, who is an established indie author with a forthcoming trad title, Ebony Gate, via Tor 2023. Julia also happens to be an attorney in her dayjob and we can't wait to discuss those questions and many more with her (including touching on non-competes again.)

Other topics included: Julia and Ken's co-writing partnership / process, what good sales or bad sales look like for debuts in the first year, the Mark Lawrence formula for looking at sales via Goodreads ratings, and a few other things.