Indie vs trad is an ever-green career debate, and is one of our most common listener questions. Authors wrestle frequently with which route will suit them best. But the real question is—why pick between them, when you can do both?

Today, we are joined by Michael J Sullivan (a New York Times, USA Today, and Washington Post bestselling American writer) and Robin Sullivan, a powerhouse industry expert & fierce author advocate. In a detailed, wide-ranging interview, dream team Robin & Michael talk about the triumphs and trials of a very long career: from small press ventures to an unstoppable indie career and mammoth trade publishing battles, before eventually scaling the heights of hybrid success.

As ever, we aren't going to tell you what to do, or what is best; there is no such thing as a categorical answer in publishing. But hopefully we can help provide you enough facts to make informed decisions.Listen to our follow-up in episode 8, where we toss complex industry questions at Robin & Michael, in exchange for some very detailed answers.

SHOW NOTES:

• How Mike and Robin got started - with a book that was small press published, then self-published, then big 5 published

• The first trad deal Orbit Books offered them, and why they accepted it even though they were already successful

• The good and bad of working with a trad publisher, and why they found it a useful experience despite the many negatives

• Editors as project managers, and how much editing quality/quantity varies

• How publishers look at and regard self pub authors

• The difference in indie vs trad profits

• Why Robin and Michael took a second trad deal with Del Rey

• Why Robin and Mike went back to self publishing

• why they don't take money from authors - and their belief in helping, mentoring, and advocating freely

Show notes and topics covered:

• how to define success for you, personally

• the importance of audio, and the commercial impact of a good narrator

• commercial versus artistic decisions

• what happens when a book underperforms, and what you can do about it

• navigating option clauses for future books

• how sales track-records can impact future contracts

• using leverage (when you have it!)

• What you can argue for in contracts, and how much you can push back

• things you CAN do to help promote your book

• questions from listeners! (A few).

Mike's specific advice:

• Success is specific and individual, and relative to your career

• Ask for audio rights reversion with 12 weeks of release

• Pick 1 or 2 things in your contract you want to fight for

• Research your audio narrator

• Know what you want/need upfront

Sunyi and Scott's added emphasis:

• your sales are not your fault!

Links:

• Michael Mammay's Twitter profile: https://twitter.com/MichaelMammay

• Michael Mammay's website & blog (with tons of articles about publishing and writing): https://www.michaelmammay.com/

Both Richard and Sunyi hit the Sunday Times list right out the gate in the UK. How does that happen? Who gets to decide, and what does it mean? We explain how the Sunday Times lists work in the UK, the importance of crates (and other independent gatekeepers), and why the list is both hard to hit without orchestrated support. Additionally, we discuss what authors should be most afraid of, and what we wish publishers would openly say.

Richard Swan, Sunday Times bestselling author of JUSTICE OF KINGS, talks to us about the role that luck and timing play in publishing, and the polar opposite approaches that Sunyi and Richard take to writing.

We also deep dive into publishing contracts and clauses that debuting authors should be looking at (Richard used to be a lawyer in his dayjob). Other topics covered: marketing plans (or the lack of them), what editors mean when they talk about "having a vision" for your novel, the advantages/disadvantages of selling world rights, and the hideous invention that is Joint Accounting.

Big 5 midlist vs midsize author: which is better, which is worse, and what are the pitfalls of going on way or another?

This week, we’re joined by Clay Harmon, author of Flames of Mira, to answer exactly those questions as we discuss his publishing journey. As usual, we go hard on the facts: details, money talk, gentle honesty, and bleak statistics.

Authors who are querying, on submission, or under offer from publishers may find this one particularly insightful.

The trade publishing industry relies heavily on bookstores and their booksellers for a successful business model. But what do booksellers actually do for authors, and how do they fit into the publishing ecosystem? We hope that this episode will illumiate some of those questions, and provide an ongoing deep-dive into how this industry functions.

Today we are joined by 3 guests: Jeremy, Claire, and Kerry, and we are grateful to all of them for their shared wisdom!

In this episode, we will explain who we are, why we’re doing this, and give a quick overview of our paths into publishing. Topics include: trad versus indie, our publishing journeys, is publishing worth it, how much publishing experiences vary, and groundwork basics about the industry. Among others!