"We all love Thomas Paine. We just wish we liked him." — Jonathan Turley

Jonathan Turley's new book asks a deceptively simple question: why did the American Revolution become the longest-running successful democracy while the French Revolution devoured itself? The answer, he argues, lies in Madison's "auxiliary precautions" — constitutional safeguards designed not to eliminate rage but to channel it. Turley draws a direct line from Robespierre to today's calls to pack the Supreme Court and abolish the Senate, warning that removing those precautions invites the same mobocracy that sent the Jacobins to the guillotine. But the real provocation comes in the book's second half: with AI and robotics threatening mass unemployment, America may soon face a "kept population" — citizens subsidized by the state who lose their vital relationship to productivity and self-governance. We discuss Thomas Paine (brilliant about humanity, clueless about humans), why rage itself isn't the enemy, and whether the republic built to handle the 18th century can survive the 21st.

About the Guest

Jonathan Turley is the Shapiro Professor of Public Interest Law at George Washington University Law School. A legal analyst for CBS, NBC, BBC, and Fox News over three decades, he is the author of The Indispensable Right (a bestseller) and the new Rage and the Republic: The Unfinished Story of the American Revolution.

Chapters:

00:01:14 The uniqueness of the American Revolution
Two revolutions, two outcomes; Thomas Paine and James Madison as the twin geniuses

00:03:53 Paine vs. Madison on democracy
Paine wanted direct democracy; it nearly got him guillotined in France

00:05:54 Robespierre's transformation
The ACLU lawyer who came to believe "terror is virtue"

00:09:01 Thomas Paine: the penman of the revolution
From complete failure to revolutionary genius in two years

00:11:46 Slavery and the revolution's contradictions
Why people preferred Jefferson to Paine

00:15:43 Franklin's greatest achievement
Seeing something in "that heap of human wreckage"

00:18:07 What was unique about American rage
Not the rage itself, but the system designed to handle it

00:25:08 The "New Jacobins"
Calls to pack the Supreme Court and abolish the Senate

00:26:40 Rage on both sides
"Your rage is righteous, their rage is dangerous"

00:30:47 AI and the "kept population"
Mass unemployment and the citizen's relationship to the state

00:39:26 "Gynan" jobs
Homocentric industries like psychiatry and education that AI can't replace

00:45:00 Why the American Republic is still the best model
Decentralization over EU-style centralization

References

Figures discussed:

• Thomas Paine — arrived in America "barely alive," became the penman of the revolution in two years
• James Madison — designed the "auxiliary precautions" that prevented American democracy from devouring itself
• Benjamin Franklin — paid for Paine's passage to America, saw genius in "that heap of human wreckage"
• Maximilien Robespierre — began as an advocate for due process, ended declaring "terror is virtue"
• Jean-Paul Marat — radical journalist, killed by Corday in his bathtub (he bathed constantly due to a skin disease)
• Charlotte Corday — Republican who assassinated Marat; Robespierre and Danton watched her execution
• Georges Danton — joined the moderate Girondin wing; executed by the revolution he helped create

Art:

• The Death of Marat (1793) — Jacques-Louis David's painting of Marat's assassination; David was himself a Jacobin

Historical events:

• The Battle of Fort Wilson (1779) — Philadelphia mob attacked founder James Wilson's home; several killed
• The Reign of Terror (1793–94) — nearly all Jacobin leaders guillotined, including Danton and Robespierre

Books mentioned:

• The Wealth of Nations (1776) — Adam Smith; embraced by the founders as "the perfect companion to their political theory"
• The Federalist Papers (1787–88) — Hamilton, Madison, and Jay

About Keen On America
Nobody asks more impertinent questions than the Anglo-American writer, filmmaker and Silicon Valley entrepreneur Andrew Keen. In Keen On America , Andrew brings his sharp Transatlantic wit to the forces reshaping the United States — hosting daily interviews with leading thinkers and writers about American history, politics, technology, culture, and business. With nearly 2,800 episodes since the show launched on TechCrunch in 2010, Keen On America is the most prolific intellectual interview show in the history of podcasting.

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