Reformed Brotherhood | Reformed Theology and Brotherly Love

In episode 507 of the Reformed Brotherhood, Tony and Jesse continue their journey through the parables of Luke's Gospel, landing in Luke 12:35–40. What appears at first glance to be a familiar call to watchfulness turns out to be something far more demanding — and far more gracious. The parable of the waiting servants is not a call to spiritual passivity or anxious vigil, but to active, disciplined faithfulness. Girded loins and burning lamps are not the posture of someone sitting and waiting — they are the posture of someone already at work. And when the master returns to find his household in good order, he does the unthinkable: he puts on an apron and serves his servants. Grace, as always, gets the last word.

Key Takeaways

• Biblical waiting is never passive. The command to "gird your loins" describes a settled state of active readiness — not anxious watching, but faithful, ongoing work in the master's household.
• This parable is more about sanctification than justification. Unlike the Parable of the Ten Virgins, which emphasizes spiritual preparedness, this parable calls believers to holiness and continued good works in the time before Christ's return.
• The master's service is the shocking grace at the center of the parable. That the returning master would gird himself and serve the faithful servants is the parable's defining surprise — the reward is not earned, but given freely by a gracious master.
• Our best works cannot merit grace, yet God is pleased to reward sincere obedience. Drawing on Calvin and Augustine, Jesse articulates that when God crowns our faithfulness, he is crowning his own gifts working in and through us.
• The parable speaks differently to different audiences. Christ is addressing a mixed crowd — genuine disciples, swept-up enthusiasts, and hostile opponents. The same event (the master's return) carries opposite meanings depending on the condition of the heart that meets it.
• The late-watch blessing is a word of encouragement to the weary. Faithfulness at 3 a.m. is harder than faithfulness at 9 p.m. The blessing pronounced on those found faithful in the late watches is a word of hope for those in seasons of dryness, discouragement, or spiritual fatigue.
• Peter's question in verse 41 is not a failure — it is a mirror. Even Peter, standing directly in front of Jesus, did not know who the parable was for. Confusion in the face of these texts is not shameful — it is an invitation to slow down and look more carefully.

Key Concepts Active Faithfulness: What "Girded Loins" Actually Demands

The phrase "let your loins be in the state of having been girded" is a Greek perfect participle — describing not a momentary action but a settled, ongoing condition. In the ancient Near East, men wore long flowing robes, and tucking the hem into the belt was reserved for moments of work, travel, or battle. It was not comfortable. You would not stay girded longer than you had to. The parable's command, then, is not simply "be alert" — it is "stay in the posture of someone already doing their job." The servants are expected to be found working when the master returns, not merely watching out the window. Biblical waiting, as Jesse notes, has always been active: Israel ate the Passover meal with sandals on and staff in hand. Simeon waited for the consolation of Israel by being present in the temple. Waiting, rightly understood, is a form of faithfulness.

Grace That Serves: The Parable's Shocking Reversal

The most disorienting moment in this parable is not the master's unexpected return — it is what he does when he arrives. He finds his servants awake and the house in order, and rather than accepting their service, he girds himself and waits on them. This is not a reward they have earned by staying awake. As Tony points out, the master serves because there is nothing left to be done — the household is already well kept. The servants' faithfulness creates the conditions for the master's grace to be expressed in the most lavish possible way. This is the Reformed instinct confirmed by the parable itself: our obedience does not purchase the feast, but the master's grace sets the table. When God crowns faithfulness, he is crowning his own gifts, not ours. The banquet was always his to give.

A Parable for a Mixed Crowd: One Return, Two Meanings

Christ is not preaching to a tidy congregation of committed disciples. He is speaking to thousands — a traveling crowd that includes genuine believers, curious followers, and hostile observers. The sudden shift from the returning master to the image of a thief in verse 39 is jarring, but it may be precisely the point. The same event — the return of the Son of Man — carries entirely different weight depending on who is waiting for him. To those who are watchful and faithful, he comes as a beloved master bringing a feast. To those who are careless or unprepared, he comes like a thief, and loss follows. The doctrine of perseverance is not a license to coast. God perseveres his people through their persevering — working in them both to will and to do. The parable presses every hearer to ask: which household am I keeping?

In episode 506 of the Reformed Brotherhood, Tony Arsenal and Jesse Schwamb wade deep into one of Luke's most arresting parables — the Parable of the Rich Fool (Luke 12:13–21). What begins as a story about a man with a bumper crop and an ambitious barn-building plan quickly unfolds into a penetrating diagnosis of the human heart. The hosts argue that this parable is not primarily about financial planning or the dangers of wealth per se, but about the fundamental theological posture of the creature before the Creator. Framed by two parallel warnings — against covetousness and against anxiety — the parable exposes what happens when a soul tries to find its ultimate rest in the abundance of earthly things rather than in God himself. Rich in biblical theology, literary analysis, and pastoral application, this episode rewards careful listening.

Key Takeaways

• The parable is framed by an inclusio — the warning against covetousness (v. 15) and the command against anxiety (v. 22) are parallel statements that reveal the parable's true subject: the misplacement of ultimate trust, whether in abundance or in the lack of it.
• The man's sin is not his wealth or his planning — Scripture commends prudence and does not condemn the accumulation of resources. What condemns this man is his complete failure to acknowledge God as the giver of the harvest or to consider any obligation beyond self-satisfaction.
• The soul-talk is theologically and culturally shocking — In the ancient world, deliberating entirely within oneself, speaking to one's own soul, would have registered as a form of insanity. The Greek construction itself strains to articulate the concept, underscoring how deeply abnormal it is to reason about life without God.
• The repetition of first-person pronouns is not incidental — "My crops, my barns, my grain, my goods" — five times in three verses. This is not poor stewardship; it is the theological posture of self-ownership, a categorical denial of creaturely dependence on the Creator.
• God's interruption in verse 20 is itself a theological statement — No private counsel is truly private. God, the judge of all the earth, hears every deliberation of the heart. His use of the word "fool" invokes the full weight of biblical wisdom literature: the one who says in his heart, "There is no God."
• The contrast is not wealth versus poverty, but two objects of trust — To be rich toward God means holding earthly goods with an open hand, whether one is wealthy or poor. Both the covetous rich and the anxiety-ridden poor are addressed by this parable, and both are called to the same posture of dependence on God.
• True productivity, like true wealth, is impossible without God — Drawing a thread to Jesse's affirmation of Redeeming Your Time by Jordan Raynor, the hosts note that one cannot rightly use wealth, time, or any other gift without first knowing and trusting the Giver.

Key Concepts The Inclusio: Covetousness and Anxiety Are the Same Disease

One of the most illuminating structural observations in this episode is Tony's identification of the literary inclusio surrounding the parable. Before the parable, Christ warns: "Take care, and be on your guard against all covetousness, for one's life does not consist in the abundance of his possessions" (Luke 12:15). After the parable, he turns to his disciples and says: "Do not be anxious about your life, what you will eat, nor about your body, what you will put on. For life is more than food, and the body more than clothing" (Luke 12:22–23). These are not two separate concerns — they are the same spiritual disease expressed at opposite ends of the economic spectrum. The man who grasps for more and the man who lies awake worrying about having enough are both making the same fundamental error: they are finding, or attempting to find, their life's ultimate security in the material rather than in God.

Autonomous Inner Counsel: The Insanity of Reasoning Without God

When the rich man in the parable "reasoned to himself" and then spoke directly to his own soul, Jesus was not simply describing a man thinking through a logistical problem. He was depicting, in vivid and culturally jarring terms, the posture of the natural man before God — a man who, in the moment of his greatest blessing, seals himself off from the Creator entirely. The hosts note that in the ancient world, this kind of internal, autonomous deliberation would have registered as strange, even mad. The man does not consult Scripture, neighbor, elder, or God. He speaks only to himself. This is, as Jesse frames it, "the soliloquy of a completely autonomous man" — the pattern of Adam and Eve in the garden, reasoning about the world as though they were its own final authority. The folly is not that he thought about what to do with his harvest. The folly is that God was nowhere in the deliberation.

Rich Toward God: The Gospel Punchline of the Parable

The parable's final line — "So is the one who lays up treasure for himself and is not rich toward God" — is not merely a moral verdict. It is a gospel invitation. Tony is careful to point out that verse 21 does not condemn the act of storing up treasure in itself; it condemns storing up treasure for oneself and not being rich toward God. The contrast is between two orientations of the whole person. To be rich toward God is not primarily about giving money to the church, though generosity is surely implied. It is about recognizing that in Christ, the believer already possesses the only treasure that cannot corrode, be stolen, or be left behind at death. The soul that has been given Christ has been given everything. The soul that has only its barns has nothing — and one night, God will make that plain.

Memorable Quotes

He speaks to his own soul as though the soul — which is like the very seat of a person's relationship with God — could be satisfied by grain. — Jesse Schwamb

Life does not consist in the abundance of possessions. That's the thesis statement of this parable. So the contrast is: what does life consist in? It consists in richness toward God. — Tony Arsenal

This parable confronts every hearer, regardless of net worth, with a single diagnostic question: where has my soul quietly gone to find its rest? — Jesse Schwamb

Full Transcript

[00:00:57] Welcome to episode [00:01:00] 506 of the Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse.

[00:01:04] Tony Arsenal: And I'm Tony, and this is the podcast with ears to hear. Hey, brother.

[00:01:09] Jesse Schwamb: Hey, brother. So on this episode, we're diving right back into the parables. We're gonna be in Luke chapter 12, and it's the parable of the rich fool, which is the story basically of a guy who has a bumper harvest, looks at his overflowing barns, and then thinks, "You know what this situation calls for?

[00:01:28] More barns." Not a single thought given to his neighbors, to worship, to God who sent the rain in the first place, just barns. Bigger, better, badder barns

[00:01:38] Tony Arsenal: Battlestar Galactica. That's a lot of Bs. That's some good alliteration, though.

[00:01:44] Jesse Schwamb: I thought you'd enjoy that. And Jesus has something to say about this. It's for all of us, actually, and it might not be the thing you expect, but we're gonna talk about all that stuff.

[00:01:52] Affirmations and Denials Setup

[00:01:52] Jesse Schwamb: But of course, first, here's what everybody needs to do. Gather your loved ones around, get your hearts and your snacks together, 'cause it's [00:02:00] once again time to set forth in an orderly and confessional manner our considered judgments on the things of this world. It's time for affirmations and denials, that part of our conversation where we either affirm something by saying we like it, we enjoy it, it's great, or in contrast, we deny against something that just isn't so good.

[00:02:18] So Tony, it's time for your doctrinal statements. Are you affirming with something or denying against something on our episode?

[00:02:26] Tony Arsenal: I don't know about a, I don't know about a doctrinal statement, but I'm affirming with something.

[00:02:29] Jesse Schwamb: Okay.

[00:02:29] Tony's Baked Pasta Win

[00:02:29] Tony Arsenal: So you and I have talked before about how much we love the slow cooker meals.

[00:02:33] Yes. And, uh, this isn't a slow cooker meal, uh, affirmation, but it is a food recommendation. Um, I've been making this baked pasta, this baked spaghetti dish, that is just so delicious. And the reason it works really well for our family is first, the kids love it, which is, uh, r- rare these days. We- With a two and a, a two-year-old and a four-and-a-half-year-old, they can be very, very selective about what they eat.

[00:02:57] This is a consistent winner. Um, but also, like, [00:03:00] the amount that the recipe makes will do lunches and leftover dinners for all four of us for several days. So it's a super simple recipe. I'm actually, this might be a Reformed Brotherhood first, but I'm gonna put it in the show notes. I'm gonna put the recipe in the show notes.

[00:03:13] Mm-hmm. And, uh, it's super simple. You just cook up 16 ounces of, you know, pasta. I did, uh, it's calls for spaghetti, but with toddlers it's a little easier if you do something like, um, like elbow noodles or I did bow ties tonight 'cause it was kinda fun and I could be like, "Hey, look, it's bow ties." Uh, it's, it's just some sort of, uh, macaroni product, you know, like a, a spaghetti, angel hair pasta, whatever you wanna use.

[00:03:40] You put in two 24-ounce jars of marinara sauce or a pasta sauce. Uh, it calls for a bunch of spices, but you can also just get a pasta sauce that is already spiced. If you want a pasta sauce that has, like, mushrooms or extra basil or something, like, you can buy, like, a more flavored style of pasta sauce, and that'll add [00:04:00] some, uh, some texture to it.

[00:04:02] You do two pounds of ground beef, which will cost you, like, $1,000 these days- ... but it's, it's worth it. You could replace it with ground turkey if you wanted to do something- Nice ... uh, a little bit less expensive or maybe something a little bit healthier. Um- You put in like two eight-ounce things of sour cream.

[00:04:18] I think it calls- Ooh ... for 12 ounces, but I did, uh, I did 16 ounces today and it was extra creamy. And then just a mess of mozzarella, and you know, a mess of... You, you top it with mozzarella cheese- Nice. Nice ... and, uh, Parmesan. And then you just cover it with foil and bake it for a half hour, and then take the foil off and bake that, uh, for another 15 minutes to make sure that surface cheese is nice and crisp and, like, gooey and perfect.

[00:04:42] Mm-hmm. Uh, and it's just, it's just good. It's getting to be that time of year where things are a little colder. Right. And, uh, we... Our, our home is heated by propane, which is expensive, and this time of year, like, I don't actually wanna turn the furnace on, but cooking a nice meal in the, in the stove just sort of takes the, [00:05:00] takes the, uh, edge out of the air a little bit.

[00:05:02] So every element of it is great. And like I said, I'll, I'll eat this dish for lunch for the next, like, four days and I'll love every bit of it. So I'll put the recipe in the show notes. It's very easy to make. It's very, very good. If you got kids, it's a winner 'cause it's cheesy and gooey and it's fun. Um, and then you put a side of veggies with it, mixed veggies or spinach or whatever you want.

[00:05:25] Uh, and it's just, it's just delicious. It's so, so good, Jesse. I can't even describe how good it is. Um, but it's, it's just really, really delicious. I've made it twice now and, uh, it's just easy. I'm not a very good cook. Your wife is a phenomenal cook, so she's probably able to, like- This is true ... she could probably tweak this recipe and make it, like, a real culinary masterpiece.

[00:05:43] But you don't have to be a great cook to put this together. Right. You just boil the pasta, brown the beef, and then mix it all together and bake it for a little while and it's, it's really, really easy and good.

[00:05:52] Jesse Schwamb: I can at least vouch for how delicious it looks. You sent us a picture and it's exactly what you'd expect.

[00:05:58] Like, it, it's [00:06:00] a big casserole dish of pasta, which I didn't know the recipe, so I can see it's elevated pasta, really. Got some things that- Yeah ... kinda just take it from, like, just out of the box stuff to something that's a little bit more decadent, and that's what you want.

[00:06:12] Cheese Talk and Recipe Tweaks

[00:06:12] Jesse Schwamb: But I was immediately overcome by just the beautiful cascading...

[00:06:17] A- as if covered by covenant itself, this pasta was just smothered- ... in this delici- like, not... A- and I don't wanna say, like, not, not too much cheese, like just the right amount. And I could tell it had been baked so that it was not just melted but got the crispiness. Here's what, this is the reason why I make such a big deal about the picture is because my wife is lactose intolerant, and I've learned you can, you can fall into a kind of version of Romans 1 with lactose intolerance.

[00:06:44] If there's somebody who's a loved one- ... in particular, and by that I mean I, because we haven't had real cheese in a while, I thought, "I don't need real cheese. Like, we can get this fake stuff. It's, it's really good. It's, it's so delicious." And then you see a picture like that and I immediately thought, "I've exchanged the truth for a lie.[00:07:00]

[00:07:00] I want cheese." "I want it so bad."

[00:07:03] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, the cheese really is the... I mean, the, the secret to this is the sour cream. Um, I feel like that's really what, what sort of pushes it over the edge. Last time that I made it, the first time I made it, I didn't tell Ashley what was in it. She just knew it was like a baked p- pasta dish, and she was like, "This is so good and creamy, and I...

[00:07:23] It's, like, it's really delicious." Um, the sour cream really kicks it over the edge. If, if anything, I would add a little more cheese than I used tonight. Um, it calls for a cup of cheese, which is a lot of cheese. That's eight ounces of cheese. A lot of cheese. Um, it's four ounces of cheese. Um, but I use a little bit more, and I actually think it could u- it could've used a little more mozzarella and make that inner, like, the in- middle gooey part a even more gooey and cohesive.

[00:07:48] But it's good. It's really... It's a recipe that's hard to screw up. And even if you did it without cheese, if you just added sour cream or, um, even if you didn't do that, you just added something to sort of give it a little bit of an edge. You probably could do it with yogurt if you were [00:08:00] looking to save, uh, do something a little bit more healthy than sour cream.

[00:08:03] Um, and it's one of those dishes, like, you can play with it. You can kinda mess around with it and change it up. Um- I saw one person online who was talking about this recipe who, uh, they, they sprinkled a little bit of cheddar cheese on top of it along with the mozzarella and it gave it a little bit of that sharpness.

[00:08:17] So check it out. I'll post the recipe. It's very easy. Um, it was actually in a list of like easy meal plan. Ashley has this packet of like easy meals for busy moms kind of thing. Uh, and it, it takes a bit of time. This one is not one that you would wanna try to do, you know, after a work night trying to get the kids ready.

[00:08:38] But again, it's one of those ones kind of like the slow cooker stuff we talk about. Like- Right ... once you get it set and you do it, then like you have leftovers for the week and it heats up real well. It reheats really well. Um, probably don't want to eat it cold because of the ground beef. Could, could get a, you know, get some food poisoning kind of stuff going on there, but it microwaves real well.

[00:08:58] Uh, it's very delicious. [00:09:00] You, you know like sometimes when you microwave something, like it's, it dries out. Because this has like the sour cream and the, the marinara sauce, this doesn't really dry out. Um, and it, it stores really well in the refrigerator. You could probably freeze it if you really wanted to.

[00:09:14] Uh, it's just really a versatile, easy to make dish. So I'll post the recipe.

[00:09:18] Telegram Tastings and Oreo Chaos

[00:09:18] Tony Arsenal: Uh, this is one of those things we, we sometimes forget to talk about our Telegram chat until the very end of the episode, which is like the worst possible time to do a call to action- I know ... for a podcast. How dare we? Uh, we actually have a whole channel in our Telegram chat which you can access by going to t.me/reformedbrotherhood.

[00:09:36] We have a whole channel just for tastings, and usually people will do things like hot wing tasting or this time of year sometimes like seasonal Oreos or seasonal candy bars come out or maybe someone gets a new beer or something like that. I would love to see some people make this recipe and do some tastings because maybe I'm overselling it.

[00:09:53] Maybe I just love this and it's only so-so, but, uh, I'd love to see what the rest of the community thinks. So [00:10:00] t.me/reformedbrotherhood, make the baked pasta. Tell me what you think. I think it would be awesome.

[00:10:05] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, there you go. There's all kinds of great things taking place out there, and this is that time of year.

[00:10:09] Oreo won't stop. I mean, this could be our, the whole topic- I know ... of our conversation tonight, so I'm just gonna avoid it for the most part, but somebody needs to stop Oreo. I tried the Chicken and Waffles Oreo, and It was not good. Uh, maybe that should be my denial- No ... but it's not my denial, but it's not great.

[00:10:26] It, well, it's complicated, guys. It's, it's kind of good because it tastes mostly, at least when I ate it... Okay, somebody be the judge. Go, go get some. Grab them from a friend. Do not go buy them yourself unless, like, you think- No ... this is something you're really gonna love. But, uh, and I'm gonna warn you, you probably won't.

[00:10:43] But it, it'll taste delicious 'cause you'll be like, "Oh, this is like maple syrupy, and it tastes waffle-y." And then there was, like, something that happened in the back of my throat that was unnatural. It was like a spiciness or a clinginess or, like, a weird spice that I think was supposed to be an analog for chicken.[00:11:00]

[00:11:00] Instead, all it was making me do was kinda just make this weird, like, phlegm-like sound as I was at work trying to recover quickly in front of people after eating this Oreo that sniped me. So I don't know where I was going with that except, uh, come hang out at the Telegram chat, everybody, because we've got all kinds of fun tastings there.

[00:11:16] Somebody should grab those Oreos. We know you, you got these Oreos out there somewhere, loved ones. Post a little- Yeah ... uh, s- video of, uh, us, or for us, of you trying them

[00:11:26] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, I, I find that anything that is trying to emulate a savory flavor that doesn't actually include that savory flavor is usually pretty gross.

[00:11:38] And I think it's- Dangerous ... 'cause it's like, it's not like they're putting real chicken into the Oreos. Oh, please no. It's- Yes ... it's like they just have some sort of chemical that tricks your brain, tries to trick your brain into thinking it tastes like chicken. Which with as many things that taste like chicken as there are, you would think that'd be a pretty easy one to nail, but, uh, I'm not even gonna try the Oreo waffles- It's weird

[00:11:57] or Chicken waffle. It's weird. May- maybe somebody will like it That sounds [00:12:00] disgusting and-

[00:12:01] Jesse Schwamb: Yes. Yes. I agree. I agree. All right, I'll take-

[00:12:04] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, it was actually, it was actually a, a Coke Oreo, uh, uh, partnership that originally spawned our tasting channel, wasn't it? Yes. I think it was like the... I don't remember what flavor it was, but it was like a Dr.

[00:12:17] Pepper flavored Oreo or an Oreo flavored Coke or something like that- Yes ... that was just a, just a total outcome of the fall. It was just disgusting.

[00:12:26] Jesse Schwamb: It is.

[00:12:26] Tony Arsenal: So-

[00:12:26] Jesse Schwamb: Here, so- But ... I don't wanna be too conspiratorial, but I have a theory about this. My theory is that Oreo knows that all they have to do is entice people enough for every person to buy one package of these things, knowing that they may never buy them again, and they'll still make a, a, like bandits.

[00:12:41] And maybe it's even better because everything is more expensive these days. So you can't just go with what's normal. So you've gotta like really say, "Well, I'll just, I'll get this one package of Chicken & Waffles Oreos 'cause I'll never get it again. I'm willing to splurge on it." And the joke's on us, loved ones.

[00:12:55] Like, we're all out here just throwing Oreos into the trash because ... [00:13:00] that tastes so funky. Maybe not. Somebody go tell me if I'm wrong. Somebody s- go out there and say, "Yes. Listen, these, these are the best Oreos I've, I've ever had."

[00:13:11] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, this reminds me back, way back in my, my Reformed pub days, which I don't like to admit how long ago that was 'cause it makes me feel really old.

[00:13:19] But, um, there was a, a long time when, uh, Not Your Father's Root Beer or Not Your Dad's Root Beer, whatever it was, I don't remember what the specific, uh, brand was, but there was a, like a brand of, um, of like alcohol root beer. I think it was like Not Your Father's Root Beer or Not Your Dad's Root Beer or something like that.

[00:13:39] It was

[00:13:39] Jesse Schwamb: horrible.

[00:13:40] Tony Arsenal: And it was so awful that it was actually a trend for a while. Man, this, these were the good old days where people had enough money to do stupid stuff like this. But it was a trend for a while where people would buy it just to film themselves dumping it down the drain. And it's like, it's like, yeah, nobody has money for that anymore, but- Yeah

[00:13:59] uh, some things are [00:14:00] just so terrible that it's almost... I think you might be right. Like, it's so bad that people buy it to just try it to see how bad it is. Yes. And Oreo s- someone has calculated that, like, they can get enough people to buy it just on the reputation of how terrible it is that they'll still turn a profit on this limited edition run, uh, terrible Oreo Fusion thing.

[00:14:23] Um, yeah. Anyway, we could talk about terrible Oreo Fusions- Yeah ... all night, every night, 'cause there's a lot of them and they're gross. But we don't wanna do that, 'cause that's probably not great podcasting. So Jesse, what are you affirming or denying? And I'm gonna be really embarrassed if what you're denying is Oreo Fusion-

[00:14:39] cookies. But, uh, what are you affirming or denying tonight?

[00:14:43] Jesse Schwamb: It's not.

[00:14:44] Jesse's Productivity Book Pick

[00:14:44] Jesse Schwamb: I think you and I are somewhat, we're interested in productivity, are we not? Mm-hmm. We've actually talked about that a great deal on this podcast. And so I'm hesitant to bring this up because there are so many books, there are so many podcasts.

[00:14:56] What more could possibly be said? And so when I came across this book called [00:15:00] Redeeming Your Time by Jordan Rainer with the subtitle Seven Biblical Principles for Being Purposeful, Present, and Wildly Productive, I thought, "Come on. Um, do we really need this book?" And I read it, and I'm really glad that I did.

[00:15:13] And my affirmation is exactly his work here. Because it's a little bit like presuppositional apologetics meets Cal Newport and David Allen. He, in fact, one of the things I love is if you're interested in just being more productive or maybe you don't even know what that is, I do recommend you get this book because he basically has synthesized, and he says this, a lot of that writing into one place.

[00:15:37] He gives you really practical things. But this is by far the most Christian perspective, I would say that the most Reformed perspective I have ever read on productivity, and I took way more from this book than I ever anticipated I would. To that end, just to give a taste, I wanna read just a couple sentences that are part of his introduction.

[00:15:55] This is what Jordan Rainer writes, "Jesus offers you peace before you do anything." [00:16:00] Nearly every time management expert says that the path to peace and productivity is found in implementing his or her system. This is what we might call work space productivity, which claims that if you do exercises X, Y, and Z, then you'll find peace.

[00:16:12] This book begins with the opposite premise in what we might call grace-based productivity, which says that through Jesus Christ, we already have peace, and we do time management exercises of X, Y, and Z as a response to worship. And basically, the whole premise of his book is that the most unproductive thing you can do in life is live it without God.

[00:16:32] So this is missional. It's intensely practical. Like, he's gonna take you through his own strategy, which really he says, and he gives attribution to so many other authors and experts in the field, that he is synthesizing some of their ideas, but he's doing it under the auspice of the gospel. And this is the first book I've ever found that has this type of final chapter.

[00:16:53] There's a whole section on being sure not to make productivity an idol. So this is, like, a really [00:17:00]lovely book. It's incredibly challenging. It's so thoughtful, but it's filled with doxological kind of content that leads me to want to be more productive, not because we have to do productive to, or pr- be productive to, of course, earn anything before God.

[00:17:13] Not even that we should feel guilty if we're not, but out of God's grace, He gives us tools, and this feeds our desire to serve and then do so effectively. And so I think that if you have any interest in what it might look like for you, if you're feeling burned out, tired, distracted from things in life, uh, you really should read this.

[00:17:32] It'll be worth your time. So wherever books are sold, we're not getting, uh, any kind of commission on this. Just go find Redeeming Your Time by Jordan Rainer. And again, go to the Telegram group. Let us know what you think about it.

[00:17:46] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.

[00:17:47] Grace Based Productivity Discussion

[00:17:47] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, you know, I think, um, there was a time period where hustle culture or productivity culture was really, really in for Christians.

[00:17:57] Jesse Schwamb: Right.

[00:17:57] Tony Arsenal: And, um, I, I think even [00:18:00] in secular, secular domains, non-Christian domains where productivity, hustle culture is kind of, um, is a, a focus, even in those circles and even in those circumstances, the literature and the, the people who are doing blogs and, and YouTube channels, even those people are starting to recognize that we did put hustle culture and, like, being, like, hustling, we, we put that on a pedestal and made it, like, the goal- Right

[00:18:31] instead of recognizing, like, the whole point behind, um, behind productivity is it's actually to keep your priorities straight. Right. It's, you know, it's, it's you, you work hard to get things done so that you have time to do the things you wanna do, or so that you are actually able to accomplish the goals you want to accomplish.

[00:18:53] And a lot of people have commented, both in Christian circles and non-Christian circles, that we made getting a lot [00:19:00] of things done... And I, like, I don't wanna blame David Allen for this, but, like, this is the name of his book, right? Getting things done was the goal, not the vehicle to the goal. Right. I don't think David Allen would take that approach.

[00:19:10] I think actually he's, he's much more grounded than a lot of his sorta, like, successors. But the, the, the switch to turn productivity into an end in itself has really just caused people to burn out. Like, you can only hustle for so long before you need a rest. So it's really refreshing to hear that there's a good Christian work out there that's latching onto that and is actually bringing God's truth and the gospel to bear on it.

[00:19:34] That's, that's a book that I, um, I should definitely check out.

[00:19:37] Jesse Schwamb: I highly recommend it. I'm actually going to ... I'm grabbing a copy for a friend of mine who is, I would say, like a nominal Christian. We've had lots of conversations, and he's admitted that he grew up kind of in the Christian faith, has walked away from it, and just, he's one of these guys who knows so much about it, has all the head knowledge, and says things like, "I'll, you know, I'll come back to God eventually."

[00:19:56] And it just so happens, he's big into productivity, and he's always [00:20:00] finding that whatever he's reading is really falling short. And so I'm just gonna get this as a gift for him and just say, "Here you go, man." 'Cause I, 'cause the one thing I can say about this book for anybody who's read a lot of productivity stuff, is this is something unlike you've read before when it comes to productivity.

[00:20:13] Yeah. Because it is so gospel-centered. The first opening, the whole opening gambit is, like, you can't ... How can you be pr- productive if you don't know the, the or- the origin or, like, the father of time himself? And I'm like, wow. Yeah. Okay, here we go. Let's talk about it. And then you'll be halfway through, and he's given you all of this, uh, format, framework, and structure for how to set your calendar, how to modify your time.

[00:20:34] Like, so it's the best of both worlds. You, you get a lot, but what I love is it's very presuppositional. It's like you cannot be productive in life, you cannot find your missional purpose, dist- to understand your calling, and then from there break down your quarterly goals and then your tasks. It's really a lovely way of tying everything back to the gospel, and he goes hard by saying, "Listen, you can, you have a say in directing your calling.

[00:20:57] You do not have a say in your mission. That comes [00:21:00] from God himself, who defines who you are and what it means to be human and what it's like to relate to him." And I found that to be just overwhelmingly refreshing, like you said. So I hope that people will pick this up and read it for themselves, but I could see this being, like, a really lovely introduction to the gospel to many who are just interested in how to tackle life better.

[00:21:20] And the beautiful thing about the, the Bible is it tells us the truth about the way things are. And so, like you and I have talked about before so many times, Tony, like, there's so much common grace that, of course, all these studies are just f- are kind of, are directly connected to this gospel truth of what it means to do good work and to do it as an act of worship before God.

[00:21:38] That's where we find our fulfillment, of course, is in worshiping him, and part of our productivity is that part of worship. So there's a lot of good things to, that could be said there. But I think it's, this has, like, book club written all over it, guys. Get, just get it. Get a bunch of people together. Just book club this bad boy all over the place.

[00:21:57] That's, that's my-

[00:21:58] Tony Arsenal: Yeah ...

[00:21:58] Jesse Schwamb: my full affirmation. [00:22:00]

[00:22:01] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. And, and one last thing I'll say in response to that, I love the idea of giving this book to someone almost as, like, an evangelistic tool. Yeah. Because I think there are a lot of people who, um, life is so busy and everybody is trying to get things done that especially people who already kinda operate in productivity circles, productivity mindsets, they're always looking for the next system that can fix the problem.

[00:22:27] Jesse Schwamb: Yes.

[00:22:28] Tony Arsenal: And, like, no system can fix the problem. That's probably part of the point of this book. But, like, everybody's looking for, like, the next system that will give them that, like, 2% efficiency boost or, like, that 5% efficiency boost or whatever it is. And so even though they may never pick up a book that is theological and it's about the gospel, if you give them this book and be like, "This guy's got a really unique perspective on it, man.

[00:22:48] I really think it can help you really, you know, I think he- there's some useful insight for your productivity system"- Right ... they'll read that book. They'll put it in their calendar- Yes, I agree ... they'll time block it out. I agree. And they'll read it, and they'll [00:23:00] read it to completion, 'cause that's how people who operate in these circles tend to be.

[00:23:04] Uh, so you'll get the gospel in there. So I think that's a really great, uh, a really great tool that people could think about using.

[00:23:10] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. It's like their productivity, or it's like the gospel Trojan horse through productivity. But it's, it's the truth. Yeah, yeah. This is the truth. And that's what I loved about it.

[00:23:18] It was unashamed in that this is the way life works, and God is over all, and you've gotta understand these things if, if you wanna be productive. If you wanna know the truth, you've gotta understand the truth. It's gotta be presented to you. And in point of fact, I mean, that's what we're talking about in this whole conversation.

[00:23:35] Luke 12 Rich Fool Reading

[00:23:35] Jesse Schwamb: In fact, everybody- Yeah ... at Love Ones, drop what you're doing, come find us in Luke chapter 12. That's where we are. And we're getting this thing kicked off because Jesus tells this whole parable about a rich fool in response to a man in the crowd demanding that he settle an inheritance dispute. And as Jesus often does, he refuses to be a judge or an arbiter over earthly po- property, and instead he turns this whole thing to warn against [00:24:00]covetousness, the insatiable grasping after more.

[00:24:03] Which, in some ways, is maybe more directly tied into this whole discussion about productivity than I thought. But the parable then follows... It's really not about money management, and that's, you... I've heard this talked about in various ways. Instead, it's about the human heart's naive trust in itself rather than in God.

[00:24:22] So I'm going to read for us a couple verses in Luke chapter 12 to start us off, and I'm gonna start in, I'm gonna say verse 13. And, uh, this is from Luke's gospel. "And someone from the crowd said to him, 'Teacher, tell my brother to divide the family inheritance with me.' But Jesus said to him, 'Man, who appointed me a judge or an arbiter over you?'

[00:24:45] Then he said to them, 'Watch out and be on your guard against every form of greed. For not even when one has an abundance does his life consist of his possessions.' And he told them a parable, saying, 'The land of a rich man was very productive. [00:25:00] And he began reasoning to himself, saying, 'What shall I do, since I have no place to store my crops?'

[00:25:05] Then he said, 'This is what I will do. I will tear down my barns and build larger ones, and there I will store all my grain and my goods. And I will say to my soul, "Soul, you have so many goods laid up for so many years to come. Take your ease. Eat, drink, and be merry."' But God said to him, 'You fool. This very night your soul is required of you.

[00:25:27] And now who will own what you prepared?' So is the one who stores up treasure for himself and is not rich toward God."

[00:25:38] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.

[00:25:39] How to Misread This Parable

[00:25:41] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, this is, um, this is one of those parables, again, maybe we'll put this in the category of parable with quotation marks. Um, this doesn't always even appear on lists of parables because it doesn't necessarily follow the same format, although he calls it a parable in the, the text here itself.

[00:25:58] But in so- some sort [00:26:00] of, like, lists of parables would even say this isn't even in the same category. But, um, this one here is, is another one of those parables that if we, um, w- we talked about this, uh, last week and I think a, a couple, or last time and a couple times before that. The, the parables of Matthew, or in Matthew, the, the parables that Matthew collects of Christ's overall parabolic, you know, figurative speech ministry, almost all of them are very much oriented towards explaining the nature of the Kingdom of God, explaining the nature of, of how the Kingdom of God functions, how the Kingdom of God is currently breaking into the world, how the Kingdom o- of God will definitively and finally break into the world in the, in the eschaton.

[00:26:43] Um, w- we can sometimes fall into a dangerous interpretive error if we assume that because Matthew's parables, which the bulk of the parables are in Matthew, right? Matthew has more parables than the rest of the Gospels, um, especially if you're talking about [00:27:00] unique parables. Um- Luke's parables, as we've seen them so far, at least the ones that don't overlap with Matthew, they're not necessarily oriented towards that same Kingdom of God understanding in the strictest sense.

[00:27:14] So this parable is not, um... I've heard some that, some people who interpret this in light of the same kind of like, "Stay awake you foolish virgins" kind of theology- Right ... that we saw in, in, in Matthew. Um, this parable is not teaching that same message, at least not in the same way, right? Th- And again, this is not a parable about money management necessarily.

[00:27:37] It's not a parable about, um, you know, I think we could fall into error on one side that this is like, "You fool, how dare you ever be concerned about your wealth and your finances and advancing your own wealth?"

[00:27:48] Jesse Schwamb: Right.

[00:27:48] Tony Arsenal: Versus the other side where it's like, uh, you know, people are like, "Well, the foolish part of this is A, B, or C."

[00:27:56] This is really a parable about a lot of other things that we're [00:28:00] gonna unpack. But if we read it as a sort of like eschatological parable, which it sort of feels that way, it feels a little bit like it's a sort of final eschatology or a personal eschatology parable. Uh, again, it's not to say there's not elements that speak to that, but if we read this as like some sort of, um, if you don't give away all your resources, if you don't give away all your money, if you're not thinking in terms of a life of poverty, then you're condemned.

[00:28:23] If we read it in light of that, that's not right. Right. If we read it in light of sort of like wealth planning strategies, which, you know, this is kind of like the financial version of the Daniel diet, like just taking it totally out of its context, we really can sort of run aground on some bad, some bad interpretive strategies.

[00:28:41] Jesse Schwamb: I'm with you on that.

[00:28:42] First Observations and Themes

[00:28:42] Jesse Schwamb: All those alternatives seem to really denigrate it, don't they? They cheapen what's here because it's not about what's on the face, and I think that's why it's worth talking about, because there's so much underneath. Which we always say, but I think it becomes more and more plain the more we really try to understand what's at stake, what the commentary is really being produced.

[00:29:00] And this, I think, is maybe Jesus could have taken any number of situations or circumstances. He just happens to use this one of property in particular, especially 'cause he was given the entry point, to emphasize something about the sovereignty and responsibility of God, but also our relationship towards him.

[00:29:17] I suppose what it means, of course, to be rich in God, which is the pun sign. What I notice like immediately in this is that Luke tells us something like before the man even ever speaks, and that is like the whole point of his wealth, everything he has, is because the ground produced- Like the increase is not attributed to this guy's skill or his labor or even his shrewdness.

[00:29:39] And like you said, Tony, we've, we've been in other parables where there's been a lot more commentary about the characters involved, that's been a part of this. All of that- Yeah ... is, is just given.

[00:29:46] Providence And Ingratitude

[00:29:46] Jesse Schwamb: Like everything he has is just gi- literally given to him. It's given in the t- passage, it's given to him in this circumstance.

[00:29:52] And there is like, I think, a doctrine, even from the start here, I'm seeing like this flavor of like this doctrine of providence like in miniature. Like [00:30:00] every harvest, every dividend, every windfall is, in the biblical worldview, the fruit of God's sustaining and governing hand. And so I love that like that's how I think Jesus opens this up.

[00:30:10] And so we're gonna see like the tragedy of the parable is that the man who receives this gift will never once acknowledge the giver. And there's all of this ingratitude, which I think often is like the root beneath every sin. And in this story we see the man enjoys God's bounty while essentially erasing God from the picture entirely, and that's how we start

[00:30:32] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.

[00:30:32] Parable Framed By Warnings

[00:30:32] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, and there's this other... A- and, um, maybe to, not to bury the lead and maybe, I don't know, maybe this is a spoiler warning for the rest of our episode, but it's, if you read this parable, um, you know, what, what do we always say when a, when a passage is a little bit confusing or it's unclear? Read a little bit more, right?

[00:30:48] Read a little in front, read a little after, and it usually is pretty clear what's getting said here. So when we look at in front of this, Christ tells you what the point of this parable is. Like, He's using this [00:31:00] parable to explain a previous statement, and that statement is, "Take care and be on your guard against all covetousness, for one's life does not consist in the abundance of his possessions."

[00:31:10] Right? Right. So the parable explains that statement in parable form. And if we read just a little bit after, and I'm sure we'll, we'll get to it more in depth, but He says to His disciples in verse 22, "And He said to His disciples, 'Therefore I tell you, do not be anxious about your life, what you will eat, nor about your body, and what you will put on.

[00:31:29] For life is more than food, and the body is more than clothing.'" Right? So those two statements, right? Life does not consist in the abundance of possession, in the front, and life is more than food, and the body more than clothing. Those are parallel statements. And usually we look at, this is a, a literary technique called an inclusio, right?

[00:31:49] What an inclusio is, is you have a statement at the beginning of a passage or a beginning of a text, and then a similar or sometimes identical or parallel statement after the text [00:32:00] that sort of shows you, it's almost like a chapter break, right? Sometimes, um, that's used to show you where the chapter is.

[00:32:07] Sometimes it actually helps us to clarify these statements by recognizing them as inclusios. We see that the pre- the statement before the parable and the statement after the parable are essentially the same statement because they're being used to form this inclusio. Uh-huh. So the fact that we need to be aware, be on guard against covetousness, and the fact that we should not be anxious about our possessions, about our life, about our material things, the not being anxious and the be- being aware of covetousness, those are the same thing.

[00:32:36] Or they're s- they're largely similar, largely substantially the same things. Which we did an episode when we were going through our, like, five-year-long systematic theology, um, series. Um, we did a s- we did a, a handful of episodes on, um, on the Ten Commandments, and so I would encourage you to go back and listen to the episode on covetousness because we covered all this, [00:33:00] right?

[00:33:00] Whether it's being anxious in terms of, um, being insecure in your material wealth, being insecure in what God has provided for you and not being thankful, you know, kind of almost resenting God because of your lack, that's a form of covetousness. Or whether- Right ... covetousness is taking more of a traditional format of wanting something that someone else has.

[00:33:20] Um, both of those things represent a violation of the ninth commandment. And so this parable here is... And I think this will get to where you're, where you've been sort of leading us. This parable here is designed to help his listeners, and primarily hi- like, this guy, right? He's trying to teach this guy, but also he turns to his disciples after this and launches into another section and a further explanation of this concept.

[00:33:47] It's here to help us understand not just, you know, the fact that, like, my material we- my material, uh, wealth doesn't really help me after I die. Like, yeah, you can't take it with you. Okay, [00:34:00] maybe that's part of this. Right. Maybe it's kind of the, you know, 1 Corinthians 6, "Don't build on s- don't build out of straw," you know, like, things are gonna burn away, just what you build on a s- on foundation will stay.

[00:34:11] Not Wealth But Trust

[00:34:11] Tony Arsenal: But more so this is about understanding satisfaction and contentment in whatever it is that God has blessed us with, right? That's right. So this is not a con- condemnation of those who are wealthy. This guy's not condemned because he had a bumper crop and because he's wealthy. Right. He's not even condemned explicitly because he's trying to plan for the future, right?

[00:34:30] There's lots of things, to kind of go to the productivity thing. There's nothing wrong with planning for the future. Right. There's nothing wrong with saying, "I had a really good harvest year, and I'm gonna need bigger barns to store all this stuff, to, like, keep all this stuff." It's, it's as I think you're leading us to, it's this seemingly total unawareness that the, the bumper crop comes with certain kinds of, like, obligations and entailments- Right

[00:34:56] beyond just I'm gonna celebrate and enjoy my [00:35:00] own wealth for wealth's sake.

[00:35:02] Jesse Schwamb: Right. It's what all of this circumstance reveals about this man, his heart, where he finds his assurance and confidence. So I like where we're going with this. So you're right, if you look at the passage immediately preceding and subsequent, what you'll find is that beautiful...

[00:35:16] Well, this is an Oreo sandwich. Unfortunately, we're back to where we started, because we've got- ... w- one cookie is the warning, avoid covetousness. The other cookie is the don't be worried, and the cream in the filling here is assurance or confidence. That is, like, where does our true wealth lie? But more and bey- beyond that, like, where can we hang our hats, so to speak?

[00:35:36] Like, what is it that we can be confident that we, we can rest secured in?

[00:35:41] Autonomous Inner Counsel

[00:35:41] Jesse Schwamb: And so we get some of the betrayal of the fact that this man is looking at the wrong things, even from that first verse. And then by the time, like, this interesting, this whole internal mon- monologue begins, I think again, like, it's, it's telling to me that he deliberates, like, entirely by himself.

[00:35:56] And I think, like, this is kind of this interesting posture of the [00:36:00] natural man that is described in Romans, like, 1, where there's, like, kind of functional, practical atheism. You know? He doesn't ask, like you were saying, Tony, like, "What does the Lord require of me with this abundance?" He doesn't consult scripture, neighbor, or God.

[00:36:13] He consults only himself. Which honestly I think is a temptation for us all. Like, that can be our defa- default mode in situations similar to this, where we first start to reason among and with ourselves. And this is, like, the soliloquy of a completely autonomous man who thinks he has his own agency. It's like the very pattern of Adam and Eve in the garden reasoning about the world as though they were its final authority.

[00:36:37] So here, you're right. We're, we're getting set up with it's not the circumstances that condemn this man. It's essentially how he behaves, where he puts his trust within those circumstances.

[00:36:48] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.

[00:36:49] Soul Talk As Insanity

[00:36:49] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, and, you know, I've, I've heard, um, and I, I have not validated this myself, so take it with a little bit of a grain of salt.

[00:36:56] But there's, there's something, um... I've heard it from [00:37:00] multiple sources, multiple reliable resources that I trust, that this sort of phrase in the middle where it's like he says to his soul or he says to- Yes ... himself, there's something about that that is sort of almost like a form... Uh, I've heard it said, like, that would've been f- viewed as, like, a form of insanity- Mm

[00:37:18] in the ancient world. And we've commented this, on this before. Like, um- A large portion of the population doesn't have an internal monologue. And I think, um, i- if I remember right, it's actually, like, a larger portion, it's like a majority portion of the world doesn't have an internal monologue. And what that means is...

[00:37:39] A- and hopefully there's some people in our audience that are like, "Oh, yeah, I don't, I, I don't even know what you're talking about when you say an internal monologue." And it's hard for people who are in one side of this to even conceptualize what it would be like to be on the other side of this. But there are people who, um, when they think, they're essentially speaking to themselves.

[00:37:59] And then there's people [00:38:00] who, when they think, a- and I, again, I don't even know how to describe this, they don't have an internal monologue. They're not, they're not speaking to themselves in their minds I think, um, probably part of the reason that this was so, is, was seen as so crazy in the ancient world is in the ancient world, uh, the...

[00:38:18] I'm getting really far afield here. I'll try to bring it back. Um, in the ancient world, because people didn't read as much, they don't have that internal monologue. The prominence of people being able to read, and especially being able to read to themselves, which is something that even as early as 100, 200 years ago just wasn't common to be able to read to yourself.

[00:38:37] If you wanted to read, you would have to read out loud. To be able to just read in your mind, because when we read in our mind, we're speaking words to ourselves, I think our, our, um, culture has trained itself where more, more and more people have this internal monologue. But in the ancient world, this idea that someone would say to themselves or, like, speak to their own selves or sort of [00:39:00] ponder this internally was, has...

[00:39:03] Like I said, I haven't validated this independently. I haven't done the research myself, but enough resources that I've read that I trust to have done that have said this. That was itself seen as a little bit of a, of a anomaly and sort of almost a form of insanity. Right. And so I think we've commented that a lot of times the parables have this point in them or this turning point where somebody does something that is sorta crazy.

[00:39:29] Like, it's a little bit- Right ... out there, right? You think of the parable of the prodigal son, prodigal father, whatever, however you wanna call it. The idea that, like, the father sort of debases himself and runs out to greet the son, or even the fact that, like, when this, when this selfish son asks for his inheritance, that his father just gave it to him before he died, that is uncharacteristic and would've been seen as a little bit weird or a lot a bit weird.

[00:39:55] This idea that this guy stops to sort of self-reflect [00:40:00] by himself entirely internally, right? The little- Right ... literal Greek, and so some translations say this, "So I said to my soul." Even- Right ... um, even that language of, um, almost having to externalize your internal thoughts. He's not... It doesn't say, "So he thought about it himself."

[00:40:21] He had to say to his soul. He had to speak to himself. Even the language shows you that the Greek language doesn't have good construction to even be able to articulate what it would be like to think to yourself or to just mull it over internally. That is a strange function here, and it gets at what you've been saying.

[00:40:41] He doesn't pause to pray about it. He doesn't pause to go to the gates of the city and speak with the elders. He doesn't connect with his wife. He doesn't ask anybody. He doesn't consult anybody. He does this sort of insane thing that even the Greek language doesn't have words for and has to sort of create this new [00:41:00] construction.

[00:41:00] Right. He just stops. He thinks to himself. He speaks to his own soul. And, and then it, like, sort of paints this picture of him saying it out loud. "I said to my soul, 'Soul-

[00:41:10] Jesse Schwamb: Right. ...

[00:41:11] Tony Arsenal: what should I do?'" Like, it's, it's this sort of, like, weird sort of- Weird ... insane, strange feature that we don't pause to think about because we have this internal monologue.

[00:41:21] We have this internal dialogue with ourselves, and so we don't think that that's unusual. But that's actually probably one of the main points of the parable is there is this strange feature where this guy doesn't pause to consult with anyone or anything about what he should do with this bumper crop.

[00:41:39] He just Acts on his own behalf, thinks through his own behalf. And that should be the key to us that like, hmm, we really should think about what is the point here.

[00:41:49] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. You, you stole what I was gonna say. The soul thing is the super weird thing. I'm glad you already brought it up because when I read this, you can get through most of it and say, "Okay, that's interesting.

[00:41:58] Interesting story." And then you get to him [00:42:00] being like, "Hey, soul." And you're like, "Say what?" Yeah. Like, "Who are you talking to? Why are you talking that way? Why are you being so weird about this?"

[00:42:06] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.

[00:42:06] My Barns My Goods

[00:42:06] Jesse Schwamb: So, like, there's the ju- the just sheer, like, selfishness, and then there's this... It gets escalated, elevated to this, like, soul self-talk, which is super weird, and deliberate, I think, in Jesus' telling of this.

[00:42:18] So, like, you're right. You got this repetition of all these, in Greek, like, first person pronouns: my crops, my barns, my grain, my goods. I just counted here five times in three verses we've got either I or my. So it's not simply, like, poor stewardship. It's the theological posture of self-ownership. It's like t- complete denial of the creature's fundamental dependence on the creator.

[00:42:38] And then, as if that's not enough, you get this whole verse 19, "Soul, you have ample goods laid up for many years. Relax, eat, drink, and be merry." And you wanna say, "Who are you talking to, man?" So, like, here I think this folly reaches a full and fatal expression to me because he speaks to his own, his own soul as though the soul, which is like the [00:43:00] very seat of a person's relationship with God, could be satisfied by grain.

[00:43:05] And so I think this is, like, the fundamental conclusion that Reformers labored to expose. It's really like mistaking the gifts of common grace for the substance of ultimate security. He's trying to create this cookie with all this cream in the middle, but he has nothing there. There's, there's nothing to fill it.

[00:43:20] It's like, it's like Augustine's dictum stands over this entire verse like a judgment. The heart is restless until it finds rest in God. And guess what? No barn, however large, can hold whatever only God can give. And so, like, the man's error is not that he planned for the future, like we've been saying.

[00:43:36] Scripture commends some prudence. But that he planned as though there were no God to whom he must give account and no eternity beyond the granary, and then beyond that, he takes responsibility for his own soul and tries to self-soothe that soul. My word, I could barely say that. He tries to soothe his own soul in a way to give it confidence merely by the things he owns, separating himself from the [00:44:00] creator, the one who has given him all these things.

[00:44:02] It is, I think, Tony, like you said, absolute insanity. It's certainly like insanity raised up against the spiritual man, and yet to the natural man, this seems like... Even in our modern day, in a contemporary context, this seems like the reasonable thing to do, the reasonable thing, to take charge of yourself and to be happy with yourself and to be content with what you provided and to have security in that, and yet this is the great- greatest kind of foolishness that possibly there ever is.

[00:44:28] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.

[00:44:30] Enjoy Gifts Not Idols

[00:44:30] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, and I think too, um, you know, the, this, um This is sometimes taught as though, like we've alluded to and said a couple times, it's taught as though the act of saving or, like, investing or even in this case, like, sort of taking a strange risk to try to propel your wealth forward, this is sometimes taught as though the point of this is that you shouldn't do those things.

[00:44:56] Right. Like, the act of saving your wealth is [00:45:00] somehow... Like, saving things up or investing or taking a risk is somehow contrary to biblical wisdom and biblical prudence, and I don't, I don't think that's at all the point of the parable, right? And we've, we've pointed out that this parable is sandwiched or Oreo cookied by, you know, beware of covetousness, life does not exist in your possessions, or the satisfaction of life does not exist in your possessions, and then do not be anxious, life is more than food, the body more than clothing.

[00:45:28] And the, the, the key phrase here in terms of where this guy's mistake is, not only is the mistake in the idea that, like, he's not c- thinking about what should I do with this in reference to my neighbor or what should I do with this in reference to God. There seems to be no consideration of that at all.

[00:45:44] But what he intends to do with it in relation to those statements is entirely self-focused. And it's not, it's not the case at all. Please don't hear me saying it's not okay to enjoy the [00:46:00] fruit of your labor, right? There's all sorts of things in the Bible, lots of teaching in the Bible, um, about the fact that when we work hard and we reap a financial benefit, whether it's in, in this sort of like ancient culture, it's a, you know, a concrete financial benefit, or whether it's in our more modern culture where, like, we just, we gather more money which is sort of like a, I don't know, it's like a social contract of m- evaluating our labor.

[00:46:25] Whatever it is, w- it's okay to use your wealth in ways that drives satisfaction. It's okay to enjoy wealth. Like, go buy a nice steak. Go get a nice bottle of wine. Take your wife out for dinner. Go on vac- Like, those things are fine. Buy a nice car. Go on vacation. Those things are fine, provided you're not finding your enjoyment and your satisfaction and, and ultimately that you are not doing those things as the final end of existence.

[00:46:53] Right. Right? The, the point that he's making to this young man who says, "Tell my brother to divide the inheritance with me," [00:47:00] is, like, you are finding or trying to find your life's ultimate satisfaction in your wealth or in this, like in the wealth that you think you deserve. The flip side of the disciples is, like, your entire life seems to be driven by the fact that you feel like you don't have enough food or you don't have the right clothing.

[00:47:21] So the idea that, like, our satisfaction or our security is found in the abundance of our possessions, that is what this parable is railing against Right With a little bit of, I think a little bit of a gospel call here, right? Yeah. There's, there's this element, and this is, maybe this is unique. I don't, I don't, I can't think off the top of my head another parable where God himself is actually in the parable.

[00:47:49] I think this is somewhat unique, if not entirely unique- Right ... where God himself now is in the parable saying, "Fool, this night your soul is required of you, and the things you've [00:48:00] prepared, whose will they be?" So this idea that on the one side, those who have abundance are warned against finding their sat- their ultimate satisfaction in the abundance of their possessions, and on the flip side, those who lack abundance are warned against, uh, an utter sense of insecurity in the lack of their abundance.

[00:48:22] Jesse Schwamb: Right.

[00:48:23] Tony Arsenal: In the middle there is this chastisement for both of those groups, basically saying your life and your satisfaction and security should be found in the fact that you belong to God and that God is your God. I think that's probably the ultimate payout of this parable, is this idea that like, yeah, whether you have a lot, whether you have a little, whether you have enough, whether you don't have enough, whether you are able to be sort of like enjoying luxury items versus just scraping by or not even scraping by, those [00:49:00] are two realities, and there are Christians who exist in both of those realities.

[00:49:04] And some people might push back on this a little bit, but those realities are, are neutral morally, right? You can be rich and, uh, and still be a faithful Christian. You can be poor and still be a faithful Christian. I guess we can probably have some conversation at some point about which of those states it's easier to be a faithful Christian in.

[00:49:25] But the fact is, like, you can be in either of those states and still be a faithful follower of God.

[00:49:30] Jesse Schwamb: Right.

[00:49:31] Tony Arsenal: As long as you're not finding your satisfaction or being overwhelmed by insecurity in either of those states, I think, uh, I think you, you, you, you can do both of them. And it's actually funny because...

[00:49:44] Maybe not funny. It's interesting. Um, it's also possible to be satisfied in the lack of your possessions, if I can even put it that way, right? There are those who have sort of like placed their security and their ultimate satisfaction in sort of [00:50:00] their poverty or their minimalism, and there are those who are, like, anxious about the fact that they're wealthy.

[00:50:06] This parable speaks to all of those things on every level saying, "No, no, no, no, no," like, your relationship to your possessions is not the point. Right. The point is your relation to God and whether you are his children and whether he is your God.

[00:50:21] Jesse Schwamb: Right.

[00:50:21] God Interrupts The Fool

[00:50:21] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, there's multi-factor foolishness at play here for sure.

[00:50:24] It starts with this idea that he's not crediting, he's not giving attribution, he doesn't understand that he's actually a contingent being and that God provides all these things. Then, like we said, there's this elevation, like you've just talked about, where it moves. That would be- Really foolish enough.

[00:50:41] But what's even more foolish is to say to one's own soul, "You know what? Sit back, chill, be confident because you've done all the things. You have all the right stuff. You don't need to worry about anything." Almost implying, like, you can live forever. Just hang out. You have everything that you need, and you did it all yourself.

[00:50:58] And so in verse 20, where God [00:51:00] interrupts and speaks to him directly, is amazing because He goes right into, first of all, right into the man's private counsel. So it's a good reminder that no soliloquy is ever truly private. We have the judge of all the earth. He hears every deliberation of the heart, and then He addresses him by this word fool, which, of course, you and I have talked about.

[00:51:18] Like, in the Bibl- vocabulary, it's not just, like, an insult about intelligence. It's the term reserved in wisdom literature for the one who says in his heart, "There is no God," either practically if not formally. And so biblical theology has always insisted that human beings are not autonomous. We hold our very breath at God's pleasure, and death comes not by accident or mere biology, but it is by appointment.

[00:51:43] God does all of this stuff. So by the time I, I think you're right, we get to the end of this, and Jesus says, "Listen, this is how it's gonna be for anyone who lays up treasure for himself and is not rich toward God." Can I just say, like, where my mind immediately goes, and I think this is foundational. This is one of the many [00:52:00] things that shows that Jesus is Son of God because He understands us completely as we are, and He both diagnoses the problem and gives us the remedy.

[00:52:08] And so when He's teaching elsewhere in the Beatitudes, in the Sermon on the Mount, He says, "Listen, store up for yourselves not treasures where moth and rust can destroy or thieves can break in and steal, but treasures in heaven." I find this so instructive because notice what He, He doesn't say is, "Don't store up treasures.

[00:52:25] These treasures that you keep going after, that are destroyed by moth and rust and that thieves are likely to break in and steal and bring you anxiety. Your problem is you keep going back to treasure. Stop it with the treasures." No, He just says, "Get the right treasures." In other words, He understands, and we've been created to go after things of great value.

[00:52:42] The problem is we go after those things of great value, and then we stock ourselves, and to some degree, our, even the reliance of our souls into those things, and when they are destroyed, so are we also along with them.

[00:52:54] Rich Toward God

[00:52:54] Jesse Schwamb: And so the contrast isn't between wealth and poverty, but it's between two objects of trust.

[00:52:58] It's treasure for [00:53:00] oneself and the riches toward God. To be rich toward God is to hold earthly goods, I think, like you're saying, with an open hand, which means we may be wealthy and hold them with an open hand. We may be relatively poor and hold the same things that we have with an open hand. And in light of eternity, we wanna use them in love toward our God and neighbor rather than hoarding them as some kind of substitute savior.

[00:53:18] And that's what I think happened here is the savior was replaced by all of these things And so I think you're ultimately right, Tony. Like, this verse I really believe anticipates that whole logic of the gospel, that true riches are not accumulated by human effort, but received. Ultimately, the treasure that endures is Christ himself, in whom all are hidden, all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge, freely given to those who trust, not in their own barns of course, but in his completed and finished work, which is far better, and ultimately the only thing upon which we can rely.

[00:53:53] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah, and, and I won't belabor the point too much, but I, I think, um, a h- a helpful [00:54:00] corrective, um, and I'm not sure necessarily who this is a corrective for, but this has come up in my own, um... You know, I, I provide pulpit supply for a couple local churches, um, in the area once in a while, and I've... One of the churches that I'm at sometimes has had me teach out of Ecclesiastes and then also out of James chapter five, and there's a lot of parallel theology there, and it runs real parallel to this, right?

[00:54:24] James, James has, um, almost... It's almost a parable, right? I don't know exactly where the chapter is, but there's almost a parable where he talks about these people who say to themselves, right? They sort of- Yes ... think to themselves, "I'll go to this city," or, "I'll go to that city and I'll do business." And in that instance, he's chastising them for kind of laying claim to God's providence or not, not considering the fact, not thinking about the fact that ultimately it's God who determines which city a person goes to, whether they do business or not, right?

[00:54:55] So he's, in that context, he's kind of chastising them for sort of setting themselves up [00:55:00] as their own sovereigns. But you get to chapter five, and there's this, there's this railing against the wealthy who have refused to use their wealth, right? There's the wealthy who have, and it's the same wealthy, but there's the wealthy who have taken advantage of the poor- But another thing that he chastises those wealthy people over is the fact that their riches are sitting in the stockpile for so long that their gold corrodes.

[00:55:26] And it's a really stark picture because gold is, in part, used as a measurement of value because it doesn't corrode in, in normal timescales, right? So silver, as durable as it was, it corrodes, and so it, it was a lesser valuable metal. So the, this vivid imagery of their gold sitting in a store pile for so long that it, it sort of corrodes is pointing towards the eschatological judgment of the corrosion of all corrupt things.

[00:55:55] You flip over to Ecclesiastes, there's a very similar kind of teaching. I don't remember the [00:56:00] exact chapter. But there's a similar teaching where it's basically talking about how, like, wealth is there for us to use, right? Wealth is there for us to use to our own enjoyment, to the benefit of our neighbor.

[00:56:13] It's there for all sorts of reasons. The idea that you would just sit on it is in James and in Ecclesiastes, and here in Christ's teaching, the idea that you would just sit on it and not do anything with it is, again, this form of insanity. And the, the person here is, um He's resting on the stockpile or the store pile of his own wealth in a way that is unhealthy, right?

[00:56:40] Right. It's not that the, the idea of using it for, uh, eating and drinking and be merry. There's nothing wrong with eating and drinking and being merry. The idea that this person believes that is the ultimate end of their goods, and that they're willing to just sort of put it in a store pile as [00:57:00] they spend it that way, that is what the parable is getting at here.

[00:57:03] And this is, this is ... I like that you contrasted this. Verse 21 does not say, "So the one ... So is the one who lays up treasure for himself," full stop. It says, "So is the one who lays up treasure for himself and is not rich toward God."

[00:57:19] Jesse Schwamb: That's right.

[00:57:20] Tony Arsenal: Right? This is a condemnation of people who put their trust in wealth, whether it's putting their trust in wealth because they have it, or putting their trust in wealth because they don't have it, and so their entire goal is focused towards getting it.

[00:57:36] Rather than those two, those two ends, or those two, uh, poles of the spectrum, what Christ is pointing at here is that our life should be oriented towards relying on and trusting on, uh, trusting in God. For those who are rich, I th- And I, I guess I'm not speaking out of ... I, I ... In terms of the broader global [00:58:00] economy, I, I'm fabulously wealthy.

[00:58:02] In terms of Western American culture, I'm not particularly wealthy, right? Um, so I don't have a lot of experience with, like, ultra wealth of just, like, money's not something I have to worry about. Um, the idea though is that for those who have wealth, they need to use it correctly. But even those people, using it correctly is

[00:58:24] And this goes back to your productivity book of, you know, um, affirmation. You can't possibly use wealth correctly if you don't know God. Mm-hmm. 'Cause no matter what you do, you're using it- That's right ... towards the wrong end. Yep. And you can't possibly have a right perspective on wealth, even if you're poor, if you don't know God.

[00:58:42] Because our life is not ... This is, this is the punchline of the parable. It's delivered before he even gets to the parable itself. Our life does not consist in the abundance of possessions. Life does not consist in the abundance of possessions. That's the thesis statement of this parable. [00:59:00] So the contrast is what does life consist in?

[00:59:03] It consists in richness towards God.

[00:59:06] Jesse Schwamb: That's right.

[00:59:06] Tony Arsenal: So this is where we need to get, loved ones, is we need to recognize that whether we have a lot or we have a little, we need to be rich towards God. And I think the phrase toward God- Uh, probably is a little bit of a quirk in the Greek. I haven't studied it too much, but, like, we think of that...

[00:59:23] I think I, I've heard of this as, like, generosity to the church or, like, somehow using your wealth towards kingdom, kingdom ends. There's probably an element to that. Like, if you have wealth and you're not advancing, using it in some sense to advance the gospel, that's probably not an appropriate use of your wealth, if that's not part of your, part of your portfolio, I guess you might say.

[00:59:44] But that's not the point of being rich towards God. The point of being rich towards God is more like recognizing that you are rich in God because of who Christ Jesus is. That's

[00:59:53] Jesse Schwamb: right. Yeah. That's right.

[00:59:55] Final Exhortation And Support

[00:59:55] Jesse Schwamb: So what have we learned on this, uh, episode, loved ones? Well, we've learned that, as usual, the Reformed Brotherhood Podcast strikes again.

[01:00:03] It's food for the soul, and it's food for your body. So Tony's gonna post out an excellent baked spaghetti recipe, and we know you're gonna enjoy that. While you're eating that, you might consider this: that this parable confronts, like, every hearer, regardless of net worth, with, I think, a single diagnostic question, which is, where has my soul quietly gone to find its rest?

[01:00:25] And the rich fool's sin was not his harvest but his heart. It was a heart that learned to speak comfort to itself, which is weird, apart from God, which it cannot do. And so we will not let this text be domesticated into some kind of financial advice. Instead, it's a summons to examine whether we are building barns, literal or metaphorical, careers, retirement accounts, reputations, achievements, crypto balances, whatever it is, as functional saviors, or whether we hold every gift as stewards who will one day give account to the Savior, to the one who is our confidence, is our assurance, and [01:01:00] should be our every treasure

[01:01:03] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.

[01:01:04] Yeah, that's a good, good way for us to wrap this out. So loved ones, I'm so excited to continue this parable series. I know I keep saying we're kinda coming up to the end, and it's gonna come up faster than we, faster than you think. Maybe. Um, but it, it is really just been a, a balm to my soul to be driven into the scriptures.

[01:01:24] Um, not that reading systematic theology or historical theology is not good and beneficial and fruitful, but it has been so good for me to just ponder the scriptures. Sort of like on the surface of it, not, not to derive systematic theology or to think about polemics or whatever, but just to think about the scripture for the scripture's sake and what it has to say to me as a Christian trying to live life that honors and pleases the Lord.

[01:01:52] So we're excited to continue this parable series. We're really, really satisfied in Christ that He's brought us through [01:02:00] to just read and love the scriptures. So if you, uh, have been, uh, blessed by this series or by the podcast, I would ask that you would consider, uh, heading over to patreon.com. Patreon is the primary place that people who wanna support the podcast financially, um, that's the primary place that people do it.

[01:02:18] So if you wanna do that, please consider going over to patreon.com. It's patreon.com/reformedbrotherhood. Uh, whether you give a dollar a month or whether you give more, um, we appreciate everybody who supports the podcast financially. We appreciate everyone who supports the podcast by listening or by praying for us.

[01:02:35] Yeah. But the podcast does have expenses, and expenses are increasing. So if you have a little bit extra left over, you've fulfilled all your personal obligations, your obligations to your local church, uh, and you are looking for somewhere to bless other people with your finances, we would love for you to consider, uh, supporting the show that way.

[01:02:53] So you go to patreon.com/reformedbrotherhood. I, I know some people have commented in the past that they, [01:03:00] uh, they're concerned about Patreon because it sometimes is, like, a per episode model. Patreon is actually moving to exclusively a monthly, uh, a monthly cost structure. So we've always been on the monthly cost structure, like we've never done the per episode model.

[01:03:16] But if that's something you're concerned about, maybe they're gonna change it, it's gonna change my giving structure, you don't have to be concerned about that. It's, it's entirely based on a monthly subscription model now. So if you have a little bit you'd like to support us by giving even just a dollar a month, that certainly helps our costs in a pretty significant way.

[01:03:33] Jesse Schwamb: That's right. We were a monthly scr- subscription before it was cool. Back then it was

[01:03:37] Tony Arsenal: mandatory. We're always

[01:03:38] Jesse Schwamb: trendy. That's what people say about us. All right. Well, uh, we'll take a page out of James, I think, and probably do this the right way in our consideration of what's next ahead, and that is if the Lord wills, and He tarries, we'll see you next week.

[01:03:49] So you can come back for more, but until then, here's what you should do. Honor everyone.

[01:03:55] Tony Arsenal: Love the brotherhood. [01:04:00]

In this solo episode of The Reformed Brotherhood, Tony Arsenal opens with a personal update on Jesse's wife Jen, who is recovering from a major surgery and facing ongoing complications. Rather than a typical episode, Tony turns this moment of real pastoral weight into an opportunity to explore James 5:10–18 — a passage about suffering, patience, and the mysterious power of intercessory prayer. Drawing on the examples of the Old Testament prophets, Job, and Elijah, Tony argues that suffering and God's mercy are not in tension but are deeply intertwined throughout Scripture. He also addresses the cessationist convictions he and Jesse hold while affirming the continuing call to bring the sick before the elders of the church in prayer. This episode is brief, earnest, and pastorally rich.

Key Takeaways

• Suffering and divine mercy are not opposed — James holds them together deliberately, using Job as the paradigm case of patience that ultimately reveals God's compassion.
• The Old Testament prophets model faithful patience — Most prophets never saw visible fruit from their ministry, yet they continued to preach and trust, making them exemplars for suffering believers today.
• Intercessory prayer is a command, not merely a comfort — When suffering, James does not point believers to self-help or circumstantial remedies first; the primary command is to pray.
• The prayer of a righteous person has real efficacy — Without attributing change or passibility to God, Tony affirms that prayer moves God to act in a manner consistent with classical theism and biblical revelation.
• Elijah's humanity is the point, not his exceptionalism — James deliberately identifies Elijah as a man "with a nature like ours," anchoring the power of prayer in God rather than in the pray-er's personal greatness.
• Cessationism and the call to elder-led prayer coexist — The sign gifts have ceased, but the practice of calling elders to pray over the sick remains a living, binding ordinance for the church.
• Caregiver suffering is real and deserves intercession — Tony broadens the application beyond physical illness to recognize the spiritual and emotional weight borne by those who care for the sick.

Explanatory Paragraphs Suffering and Divine Mercy Are Not in Tension

One of the most counterintuitive moves in James 5 is the juxtaposition of Job's suffering with the declaration that "the Lord is compassionate and merciful." For most readers, Job's story feels like the last place you would look for evidence of divine mercy — it is a story of devastating, layered loss. But James insists that the very narrative of Job, with all of its pain, is where the mercy and purpose of God are most clearly displayed. Tony highlights this as "counterintuitive but really quite beautiful." The suffering does not negate the mercy; it is, in some mysterious sense, the vessel through which mercy is revealed. This is not stoic resignation — it is a theologically grounded confidence that God's purposes are always working toward the good of His people, even when circumstances seem to contradict that.

The Efficacy of Prayer and Classical Theism

Perhaps the most theologically careful section of the episode is Tony's treatment of what it means for prayer to "move" God without compromising classical theistic commitments to divine immutability and impassibility. Tony is careful here: he affirms that God does not change, does not undergo emotional mutation, and is not subject to creaturely pressure. And yet, he insists — with the Bible — that prayer does something. He describes this as God acting in "accommodated, creaturely language," a concession to our finite understanding of an infinite God who, in His sovereign wisdom, has ordained prayer as a genuine means through which He accomplishes His will. This is not open theism or Arminian concession; it is a mature Reformed affirmation that God's decrees include the prayers of His people as real instruments of His providential governance.

Elijah as Everyman

The closing appeal to Elijah is rhetorically powerful precisely because James refuses to let Elijah remain on a pedestal. The instinct of the reader is to think, of course Elijah's prayers worked — he was Elijah. But James dismantles that escape route immediately: "a man with a nature like ours." The miracles associated with Elijah — the drought, the rain, Mount Carmel — were not the product of Elijah's superhuman spiritual constitution. They were the product of a God who moves when His people pray. This democratizes intercessory prayer in the most profound way. The ordinary believer who kneels beside a sick friend's hospital bed is operating in the same spiritual economy as Elijah on Mount Carmel. The power belongs to God; the call to pray belongs to all of us.

Memorable Quotes

There's something about the prayer of God's people that in an accommodated, analogous way, an anthropomorphic way — there's something about the prayers of God's people that moves Him to act on their behalf.

We hold those to be true, but we also see that the Bible reveals a God who moves when His people pray.

The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working. But that power is not coming from the righteous person — because even Elijah, even as amazing as Elijah was, he was a man with a nature like ours.

Full Transcript

[00:00:47] Welcome to this special episode of The Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Tony, and tonight this is the podcast that's just me. Hey, brothers and sisters. It's just Tony tonight. [00:01:00] Um, you'll hear in a little bit why that is, but, uh, just wanted to come this week and do a real quick episode. We're gonna dive into, uh, James chapter five.

[00:01:10] We're gonna talk a little bit about some suffering, some patience, and what the prayer of faith does. And rather than do an affirmation or denial tonight, uh, as you know, Jesse is not on the show tonight, uh, but I wanted to give you a quick update.

[00:01:25] Update on Jen

[00:01:25] Tony Arsenal: Uh, several episodes ago, maybe, I don't know, 10 episodes ago, Jesse's wife Jen, uh, must have been longer than that actually.

[00:01:32] Jesse's wife Jen, uh, joined the podcast, uh, to share a little bit about what's going on in her life and some medical challenges she's been having. And as you all know, uh, Jen had a, a rather extensive surgery, it was about 11 hours, back in May, and her recovery has been, uh, challenging to say the least. Um, so the reason Jesse's not with us tonight is Jen has had a s- a little bit of a setback.

[00:01:58] Um, she's okay. [00:02:00] Jesse and, uh, Jen gave me permission to give this little update. Uh, I won't go into too many details, but, uh, Jesse's, um, Jen has had some ongoing, uh, complications with some infection and just some other general challenges that have made recovery a lot slower than we'd hoped. So I know that Jesse, uh, appreciates your prayers.

[00:02:21] Jen appreciates your prayers.

[00:02:22] Pause and Pray

[00:02:22] Tony Arsenal: So before we, um, before we go on to the podcast tonight, if you would take a few minutes, pause this, say a quick prayer for, uh, Jen, that her recovery would be governed and supervised by God, that the doctors would have wisdom. Uh, and say a quick prayer for Jesse. Uh, caregiver stress is a real thing, and Jesse is, uh, doing a lot to try to support Jen and make sure that she has what she needs.

[00:02:47] Uh, and even in the midst of that, he has typically got more than enough energy to, uh, even compensate for me when I'm too tired to do a podcast. That's why you guys get solo episodes with him. Uh, but tonight he just needed an extra little bit of a dose of [00:03:00] rest, and I thought that we would take this opportunity to, to pray for him.

[00:03:03] So go ahead and hit pause, say a quick prayer, and then join me back up here in a second.

[00:03:08] Reading James 5

[00:03:08] Tony Arsenal: So as I said, we're gonna jump into James chapter 5. Uh, this is a, a passage that I know is near and dear to Jesse's heart. Uh, he's shared a little bit about this passage on the show before, and kind of that it's been a, sort of a boon to his soul.

[00:03:23] So I'm gonna start reading... Uh, I'm gonna make a connection here that I don't know is always made with this passage. So I'm gonna start reading here in verse 10. Uh, normally we would wanna start a little bit before that, and, and of course, the whole letter is an ongoing sustained argument, so it's not like you can just chunk one part out.

[00:03:41] But because of the way our English translations are sometimes, uh, divided up, we tend to separate verses 10 through 12 from what follows, and I hope as we chat for just a little while tonight, it'll be a short episode, I hope we'll understand why these two are actually, uh, quite connected. So James chapter 5, [00:04:00] starting in verse 10.

[00:04:01] "As an example of suffering and patience, brothers, take the prophets who spoke in the name of the Lord. Behold, we consider those blessed who remain steadfast. You have heard of the steadfastness of Job, and you have seen the purpose of the Lord, how the Lord is compassionate and merciful. And above all, my brothers, do not swear either by heaven or by earth or by any other oath, or let...

[00:04:24] but let your yes be yes and your no be no, so that you may not fall into condemnation. Is any one of you suffering? Let him pray. Is anyone cheerful? Let him sing praise. Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord.

[00:04:44] And the prayer of faith will save the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person has great power in [00:05:00] its working. Elijah was a man like us, with a nature like ours, and he prayed fervently that it might not rain.

[00:05:07] And for three years and six months it did not rain on the earth. Then he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth bore its fruit. My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back, let him know that whoever brings a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins."

[00:05:28] So we're gonna zero in here right on verse 10, and kinda how it connects with, uh, what follows here.

[00:05:36] Prophets and Patience

[00:05:36] Tony Arsenal: So this passage as a whole, starting in the beginning of verse, uh, verse five, sorta brings... Or chapter five, brings us into sort of an eschatological framework. James is talking about the sort of final judgment against the proud rich who are persecuting the church and who are, uh, sort of offending the Lord by, um, persecuting His people.

[00:05:58] And so in verse seven [00:06:00] now James turns to encourage the, um, the believer not to, um, not to despair because the coming of the Lord seems slow. It's very similar to what Peter does when he, he talks about how, um, God does not will that any of His people perish, but He's seemingly delaying His coming so that all may come to repentance.

[00:06:23] James is doing something very similar here, and so it's in that context that we get to verse 10. He's... In verse seven he's commanding them, or he's encouraging them to be patient, and in verse 10, he gives this example of patience and suffering. And the, the example is, uh, broadly speaking, is the prophets who spoke in the name of the Lord.

[00:06:46] If you think about most of the prophets in the Old Testament, their message was not widely received. Probably the most outwardly successful prophet in the Old Testament was Jonah, uh, and he didn't even wanna be [00:07:00]successful. Um, but most of the prophets, uh, thinking particularly of, like, Jeremiah, uh, who, you know, throughout, even in his own recorded books, uh, was, uh, persecuted and ostracized.

[00:07:13] People tried to kill him. Uh, we think of Isaiah who, you know, church history tells us he was sawn in two. Um, and most of the prophets did not see, uh, uh, any sort of real revival during their ministry. But they patiently continued to preach and come to the Lord and trust that what they were prophesying was, was worth it, that it was going to have its effect.

[00:07:37] Job and Mercy

[00:07:37] Tony Arsenal: So he, uh, he then turns kinda to the ultimate, uh, example of patience. Uh, and, and we would think... We don't necessarily always think of Job as a prophet, but there's definitely prophetic elements there- And it says, "You've heard of the steadfastness of Job." And of course, we know that Job, uh, had everything taken away from him.

[00:07:58] So he, he lived this life where he [00:08:00] was immensely successful. He had a, a large family. He had lots of wealth. He had servants. Uh, religiously, he seemed to be on track. He seemed to have the Lord's favor. He certainly had the Lord's attention. Um, and it was all taken away from him. This is the part that I think is really, uh, counterintuitive but really quite beautiful, is he says, "You've heard of the steadfastness of Job, and you've seen the purpose of the Lord, how the Lord is compassionate and merciful."

[00:08:29] And we've commented many times on the show that this sort of juxtaposition between, uh, sort of temporal woes or temporal trials and the Lord's mercy and compassion, how they're interrelated in scripture in a way that doesn't really feel intuitive to us. And so we're gonna skip down a little bit here.

[00:08:51] He talks about, um, not swearing oaths, talks about letting your yes be yes, you know, we know. That's obviously connected to this, but we're, we're gonna just pass by that a little [00:09:00] bit.

[00:09:00] Suffering and Prayer

[00:09:00] Tony Arsenal: 'Cause back in verse 13 now, he returns to this subject of suffering. He says, "Is any among you suffering? Let him pray." So there's this call for those of us who are suffering, and if we're being honest, most of us are suffering in one form or another.

[00:09:17] Uh, we either have some sort of illness, or we're struggling with finances, or maybe we have some kind of depression or some other life circumstance that is making things challenging. And it says... Doesn't say, "Let him seek out the newest self-help trend." Doesn't say, "Let him, uh, let him fixate on the, the most current, up-to-date medical things."

[00:09:40] It doesn't say, "Let him, uh, pursue Financial Peace University." Now, that's not to say those things are not good and important, but the command here is to let him pray. So when we face suffering, we should recognize that that suffering and the patience that comes with it is connected [00:10:00] to the mercy and the compassion of the Lord.

[00:10:02] This is probably the main point and theme of James' whole letter. So you go back to verse-- or chapter one, I think it's verse 24, right? It says, um- Let it be counted all joy when you face trials of many different kinds, right? So James' whole purpose in this letter is to speak to those suffering, uh, persecuted Jewish Christians that have been scattered out into the, uh, Judean wilderness and the, the countryside, who had been scattered out into the, you know, into the country and were being preyed upon probably by wealthy Jewish landowners.

[00:10:39] And the whole point of this letter is to encourage them and for them to recognize that the suffering that they're undergoing, whether there's a natural suffering, a natural evil, which obviously would be something like sickness or some sort of natural tragedy, what, what the old insurance language calls like an act of God, which is literally an act of God, something like a, like a storm that [00:11:00] ruins your crop or an earthquake that destroys your home, or m- or moral evil, which is what the, the, um, those Christians in James' audience were, were suffering under, was moral evil.

[00:11:12] Says, "If any of you are suffering, let him pray." Well, how could we ever think about praying in the midst of suffering if we did not recognize, as James says, that this suffering is related to the mercy and the compassion of the Lord? That, uh, when we think of the steadfastness of Job, we see the mercy and the compassion of the Lord.

[00:11:40] And then it goes on to say, "Is anyone cheerful? Let him sing praises." Well, what did, what did James command in the beginning of his book or what did he, he say? "Count it all joy when you face suffering of any kind." And so now we have, "Are you suffering?" Well, then you, you count it joy. "Well, are you [00:12:00] cheerful?

[00:12:00] Elders and Healing

[00:12:00] Tony Arsenal: Let you sing praise." And that brings us now to verse fourteen: "Is any among you sick?" Well, what do we do or what should we do when we're sick, when we're suffering, when we recognize that that suffering is to... unto our salvation, it's unto our sanctification? Well, we're cheerful and we praise, and we come and we join the church.

[00:12:20] We come and call for the elders. We have them pray over us. They anoint us in the name of the Lord. And the prayer of faith, verse fifteen, the prayer of faith will save the one who is sick. Now, we know that, um, God moves in all sorts of ways Uh, Jesse and I are both committed cessationists, convicted cessationists.

[00:12:43] We don't believe that the sign gifts, that, that the miracles that marked the, the Revelation period of the New Testament and the Old Testament, we don't believe that those sign gifts continue. But what we do know is that the Lord, through his servant [00:13:00] James, commands his people to seek out the elders of the church when they're sick and for them to pray over them.

[00:13:06] And I know that Jen, uh, and Jesse have really, really great elders. They've got great support at their church. I know that there are people praying for both of them. Um, and, and this podcast is not a church, and our listeners are not the elders of the church, although some of our listeners are elders, but they're not elders...

[00:13:22] I don't think there's any of them at Jesse's church.

[00:13:24] Powerful Prayer Explained

[00:13:24] Tony Arsenal: Um, but there is a principle here in this passage that I think is important for us as we, as we lift Jesse and Jen up in prayer, as we think about others in our life who need prayer, who need support, who are sick, who are suffering, is that the prayer, and this is where it comes in, uh, at towards the end here, the prayer of a righteous person, verse 16, "The prayer of a righteous person has great power in its working."

[00:13:49] There's something about prayer, and I don't fully understand it, this is something w- I will spend the rest of my life trying to understand. There's something about the prayer of God's [00:14:00] people that in a, an accommodated, analogous way, an anthropomorphic way, there's something about the prayers of God's people that moves him to act on their behalf.

[00:14:12] And of course, you know, you go back, you listen to all of our episodes on divine simplicity and aseity and divine immutability. We're, we're classical theists. We don't think that God changes. But the, what the Bible teaches us, what it reveals to us in accommodated, creaturely language is that when the elders of the church specifically, and then God's people generally, when we pray, God moves.

[00:14:39] And so that's what I'll leave you with tonight. Um, again, this, this may seem melodramatic or severe. Um, Jen's doing okay. She's, she's sick, and she's recovering. Um, m- but, but it's important for us to pray. So whether it's for Jesse and Jen, and I hope that it is, I hope that you take some more time after this episode to pray [00:15:00] for them and to pray for her specifically.

[00:15:02] But I think we all have people in our lives that we know who are suffering, who are sick, who need the prayers, the powerful prayers of righteous persons to move the heart of God to orient himself to their restoration and to their glory, whether that's restoration from a physical illness in the context here of this passage, and in some senses, it's restoration from spiritual sickness.

[00:15:26] Elijah Like Us

[00:15:26] Tony Arsenal: Um, and he closes, and this is the most encouraging part. We think of Elijah as sort of the supreme prophet of the Old Testament Uh, that title might be arguable, uh, to go to, uh, Moses, um, although Moses tends to fall in a different category. But we think of Elijah as this man, this miracle worker, right? We think of Mount Carmel, we think of the other miracles that are associated with Elijah.

[00:15:53] Uh, a- and the Bible here makes the point, James makes the point that Elijah was a man with a nature [00:16:00] like ours, and he prayed fervently that it might not rain for three years and six months, and it did not rain. And so what we see here, and this is what I'll close with, James is reminding us that the power, right, the prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working.

[00:16:18] But that power is not coming from the righteous person, 'cause even Elijah, even as amazing as Elijah was, he was a man with a nature like ours. So when we look to God, we see that, that He is the one that moves in prayer, but somehow mysteriously, somehow in His special, uh, special wisdom and special guide- counsel, somehow when we prayer- pray, that does something.

[00:16:46] And again, we have to, we have to hold everything else that we understand to be true about God's immutability, His impassibility, His simplicity, all of those things. We hold those to be true, but we also see that the Bible reveals a God who [00:17:00] moves when His people pray.

[00:17:01] Final Prayer and Sendoff

[00:17:01] Tony Arsenal: So we can trust that if we seek God and we pray agreeably to His will, that He will comfort and encourage and heal His people, and He will bring them back and restore them.

[00:17:13] So that is my prayer and my hope for you tonight, that you would spend some time thinking about the people in your life that could benefit from you taking time to pray for them. Definitely pray for Jesse and for Jen as they're r- as she's recovering and as Jesse is supporting and caring for her. Um, it's a big burden, and he's, he's bearing it her- heroically, but, uh, he, he could use your prayer just as much, uh, as the rest of us.

[00:17:39] So I will leave you with that, brothers and sisters, and until next time, honor everyone, love the brotherhood. [00:18:00]

What does it actually mean to persist in prayer? In episode 505 of the Reformed Brotherhood, Tony Arsenal and Jesse Schwamb conclude their study of Luke 11's "Parable of the Night Friend" — and the answer is far richer than most Christians expect. Rather than teaching a technique for wearing down a reluctant God, Jesus presents a contrasting image: a grudging friend who finally relents out of pure annoyance, set against a Father who overflows with delight to give His people the very best gift imaginable. Through careful exegetical attention to the parable's logic, covenantal structure, and Trinitarian movement, Tony and Jesse show that the ultimate object of persevering prayer is nothing less than the Holy Spirit Himself — the supreme covenant gift of the new covenant age, promised by the Father to the Son, and freely given to all who ask.

Key Takeaways

• The parable operates by contrast, not direct comparison. The annoyed friend is not a picture of God — he is a foil. Everything about God's character is the opposite of this reluctant neighbor, and reading the parable correctly depends on recognizing this reversal.
• Persistence in prayer is appropriate, not impudent. The word translated "persistence" in verse 8 carries a sense of shameless, boundary-crossing boldness. But unlike the midnight knocker whose asking had become socially inappropriate, our asking of God never crosses a line. There is no point at which we have asked too much.
• The shift from "friend" to "father" is a deliberate relational and moral intensification. Jesus moves the argument from voluntary friendship (revocable, lateral) to fatherhood (covenantally obligated, vertical), and then from sinful human fathers to the holy divine Father — two axes that together magnify the certainty and character of God's giving.
• Total depravity and common grace are both present in verse 13. Jesus calls even his disciples "evil," grounding the argument in the doctrine of total depravity, while simultaneously appealing to the nearly universal parental instinct to give good things to children as evidence of common grace operative even in fallen humanity.
• The ultimate gift is the Holy Spirit, not general blessings. Luke's version of this teaching specifies what Matthew's leaves general: the supreme "good thing" the Father gives is the Holy Spirit Himself. This is not a second-blessing theology, but a call to pray explicitly and persistently for the subjective experience and fresh working of the Spirit already indwelling believers.
• God's giving is grounded in the Covenant of Redemption. The Father's obligation to give the Spirit to believers is not merely an expression of His general goodness — it flows first from His pretemporal covenant commitment to the Son, to grant Him a people marked, redeemed, and indwelt by the Holy Spirit.
• The Trinity is on full display in Christ's earthly ministry. The Father sending the Holy Spirit is unavoidably Trinitarian language — and Jesus' disciples received it without confusion. The Old Testament had already furnished them with this framework, and the New Testament simply brings it into full light.

Key Concepts The Parable Operates by Contrast, Not Direct Comparison

One of the most common misreadings of Luke 11 is to identify the sleeping friend with God — as though Jesus is saying, "If you pester God long enough, He will eventually give in." Tony points out that this reading produces a deeply distorted picture of God: an annoyed deity who only answers prayer when sufficiently harassed. The actual logic of the parable is a contrast. The friend is reluctant where God is eager. The friend gives grudgingly where God gives joyfully. The friend is moved by annoyance where God is moved by covenant love. Jesus is not saying, "God is like this friend." He is saying, "Even this friend eventually gave what was needed — how infinitely more will your Father, who is nothing like this friend, give you everything you need?" The parable's force depends entirely on the distance between its human character and the divine reality it points toward.

The Ultimate Gift Is the Holy Spirit Himself

A comparison of Matthew 7 and Luke 11 reveals something significant. Where Matthew records Jesus promising "good things" to those who ask, Luke specifies: the Holy Spirit. This is not a contradiction — it is Luke's Spirit-guided theological clarification, shaped by his characteristic pneumatological emphasis and his post-Pentecost vantage point. The teaching closes where it must: not with general providential blessings, but with God's own personal presence and power. Tony is careful to distinguish this from two-stage salvation theology. The call to ask for the Holy Spirit is a call for what might be described as the subjective experience of the Spirit — fresh assurance, sanctifying power, gifts for ministry — not a second indwelling. The Christian who already possesses the Spirit objectively is nonetheless invited, even commanded, to ask persistently for His living and active presence. That invitation is itself grounded in covenant promise.

God's Giving Is Grounded in the Covenant of Redemption

Perhaps the most theologically profound moment in the episode comes when Tony traces God's obligation to give the Spirit beyond the Covenant of Grace and back to the Covenant of Redemption — the pretemporal, intra-Trinitarian covenant in which the Father promised the Son a redeemed people whose redemption would be applied by the Holy Spirit. This means that when believers ask the Father for the Holy Spirit, they are not merely appealing to His general benevolence. They are appealing to a promise the Father made to the Son before the foundation of the world — a promise sealed in the Son's obedient life, atoning death, and glorious resurrection. God's faithfulness in answering prayer for the Spirit is, at its deepest level, an expression of His covenant faithfulness to Christ. That is the ground of Christian boldness in prayer, and it is the ground that never shifts.

Memorable Quote

God has covenantally bound himself to grant us the Holy Spirit when we ask him... That covenantal obligation first and foremost is not primarily his covenant with us. It is his prior commitment and covenantal obligation to his Son to grant him a people who would be marked by and redeemed and have redemption applied by the Holy Spirit. - Tony Arsenal

We could not petition him enough to be annoying to him. There is no boundary for when it is inappropriate to stop asking or seeking or knocking. - Tony Arsenal

It doesn't teach a doctrine of prayer as a technique, somehow like wearing down a reluctant God, but a doctrine of prayer as a filial confidence grounded in the Father's revealed character, exercised through this persevering, believing, asking. - Jesse Schwamb

Full Transcript

[00:01:03] Jesse Schwamb: Welcome to episode 505 of the Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse

[00:01:12] Tony Arsenal: And I'm Tony, and this is the podcast With Ears to Hear. Hey, brother.

[00:01:16] Jesse Schwamb: Hey, brother. So I'm excited for this little conversation because I tried to tee all, all of this up for the culmination of this amazing parable, which I, I don't know if you coined it or if it comes from somewhere else or if it's what the Patristics called it-

[00:01:32] the parable of the night friends, but I really loved that. Yeah. It sounds like an amazing movie as well, so maybe there's a drama that can unfold. I mean, this is, this is cinematic. And if you're wondering what we're even talking about, you know it. It's the parable in Luke 11, the one where Jesus tells a story about a guy pounding on his neighbor's door at midnight begging for bread because apparently first-century hospitality customs did not include 24/7 7-Eleven.

[00:01:58] And so a lot of [00:02:00] us get this one wrong. We hear in this parable words like ask, seek, and knock, and we turn it into some kind of prayer vending machine where if we do the right things or we ask long or hard enough that God will give us exactly what we want. And it turns out the whole parable is about God giving us what we need, the best blessing, the best gift, the thing that is the best in all the world, which is His spirit, and that's what we're gonna talk about on this episode.

[00:02:25] So it's all- Yeah ... been set up, loved ones. Now it's time for the good stuff. Tony's here. We're going after it hard. How about that?

[00:02:33] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah, it should be good.

[00:02:34] Jesse Schwamb: It's gonna be, it's gonna be better than good, Tony. It's gonna be, like, amazing. I- I was hoping, like, the, the energy. I, I was just anticipating you were just gonna come in hard with me on that.

[00:02:45] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. I, I, I wish I had the energy. I mean, we'll, we'll talk about this maybe a little bit in denials. It's just been a, it's been a long day.

[00:02:53] Jesse Schwamb: Well, speaking of-

[00:02:54] Tony Arsenal: But it's good. It's good ... speaking- I'm excited.

[00:02:57] Jesse Schwamb: I, I felt like you were just like that was, [00:03:00] like, your pretty excitement for me and you were like, "All right.

[00:03:02] Move us along." Yeah. "Enough of this stuff." I get it. No, no. I, I'm totally down with that.

[00:03:06] Tony Arsenal: It's good.

[00:03:06] Jesse Schwamb: Honestly, that's as good a set of a segue as any. It is time before we get to the, the full excitement, we'll war- we'll both warm up a bit.

[00:03:14] Affirmations And Denials Segment

[00:03:14] Jesse Schwamb: Let's take us to that segment where we take a page from the Reformed tradition of writing confessions, except these are ones that nobody asked for.

[00:03:21] It's that time where we affirm with something that we really like or we deny against something that we don't like so much. So I can only wonder now, given that little preamble, that just short little nugget that you dropped there, I am really curious, more than ever, are you denying against something or are you actually affirming with something else?

[00:03:40] Tony Arsenal: I'm gonna cheat a little bit and go back, go old school and do an affirmation and a denial.

[00:03:44] Tony Denies Sleep And Twitter Bait

[00:03:44] Tony Arsenal: So- Oh, okay ... I guess my denial is just sleep deprivation. It's, it's just been, for whatever reason, it's been a couple nights in a row of, of sort of disruptive sleep with the kids and the dog. And this time of year in New Hampshire, the, the nights start to get a little bit chilly, which is, is great.

[00:04:01] Um, but you start to get rodents and other animals moving around and- When you live in the, the kind of house that I do, there's a large crawl space underneath, so even if, even if the animals aren't making their way into the house itself, they move around under the, the house. And so when you have a terrier that has been bred over many generations to hunt those kinds of animals, uh, when they start hearing them moving around under the floors, they don't, they don't stay quiet about it.

[00:04:27] So denying sleep deprivation. We've talked a lot about how important sleep is, and how it's a blessing from God, and it's a way to show that we're not in charge, and we're not necessary, that God's, you know, God's plan and God's world keeps spinning even when our brains are shut off for the night. So I'm denying sleep deprivation.

[00:04:45] My affirmation, uh, actually it's a denial too. It's two denials. It's a double denial. Uh, my denial, I guess what I'm gonna call it is I'm, I'm denying taking the bait. So there's, there's been a, a rather high-profile, uh, [00:05:00]Christian figure that I honestly was not super familiar with. I don't need to get into the specifics, but I was not super familiar with, and when I was silly enough to ask the question online as to like why is everybody even paying attention to this person who has no theology training and is clearly not articulating things in a reasonable way?

[00:05:17] The answer was like, "Well, he has 4.5 million followers." I was like, "Oh. O- okay." Uh, where I'm denying taking the bait is that this is a person who's been railing against Reformed theology, Calvinism, uh, for a, like a week now probably, week and a half. Uh, total straw man arguments, just totally misrepresenting things, not a good faith engagement effort, not really trying to understand the position they're critiquing.

[00:05:41] Just sort of like painting really broad, inaccurate strokes and then s- sort of congratulating himself when he knocks down that straw man. And where I'm denying taking the bait is that in the same breath as me saying like, "Why are we bothering to engage this person?" Uh, I engaged the person. And, uh, you know, like it [00:06:00] just turns into what you, what it turns into.

[00:06:02] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah.

[00:06:02] Tony Arsenal: It turns into both parties kind of screaming into the void and just feeling like the other person's not listening, and I don't have time for that. So, uh, I've, I've come up with a new policy for myself on Twitter. If someone is clearly not a good faith actor, uh, then I'm just gonna block them, and then I don't have to worry about it anymore.

[00:06:18] Good

[00:06:18] Jesse Schwamb: for you.

[00:06:18] Tony Arsenal: Um, so there's plenty of people who wanna have good conversations, who are interested in dialogue, critical or otherwise, uh-

[00:06:41] -fashion. Um, first of all, we should always be asking like, "Am I even the person that should be responding?" But i- if you, in God's providence and in wisdom and Christian prudence decide that you are, uh, then, you know, like is this a person worth responding to? Is Twitter the place to respond or, or is it a longer [00:07:00] format or something like that the best, um, best option?

[00:07:03] So I'm denying taking the bait. It's like that, uh, like that GIF, like that's bait, and then I total- I totally took it. I totally took it, wasted a bunch of my time. Uh, and I used to think like, "Well, there's people watching, and they're reading what I'm..." But like nobody's reading what I'm saying. Nope, nobody

[00:07:17] Jesse Schwamb: cares.

[00:07:17] Tony Arsenal: Nobody cares. Yeah. It's just a bunch of voices online. So there's ways to have influence and, and there are certainly people that have influence through Twitter, and I've had some really good conversations, and I think there is some value at times to engaging in that, uh, that media. But, uh, this was not one of them, so I'm denying taking the bait.

[00:07:35] Jesse Schwamb: Would you look at us? I mean, would you look at us? How, how far God has brought us. Yes. I, I just wanna commend you for bringing that up and just kinda laying that all out in transparency. I, bully for you. I think that's right on. There's a... Everybody listen to that again, 'cause there was a lot of good stuff in that short little denial.

[00:07:52] Very good.

[00:07:54] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. What about you, Jesse? What do you got for us tonight?

[00:07:57] Jesse Schwamb: I'm in that place now where, remember you and I [00:08:00] said we should create a list of our affirmations, Niles? I think you have been more faithful in that, uh, honestly, than I have. I, I have- ... coveted your, your faithfulness in doing that. So then I did it, and now I can't remember.

[00:08:10] I'm not crossing them off, so now I can't remember if I've actually- ... given this. So everybody please have mercy on me if I've already said this before. I don't think I have, because, you know, I'm just burying a lead that doesn't need to be buried.

[00:08:23] Jesse Affirms Invictus EP

[00:08:23] Jesse Schwamb: But I've got a affirmation, and it's more music, and it'll hur- hit a certain group I'm sure.

[00:08:29] But I'm affirming with a band called Invictus. They have a new EP that's out this year. It's called Sealed and Sent, and I'll just give you... I, I don't, I'm not trying to make light of this, but, like, I'm not gonna tell you what the music... I mean, I have a pedigree I'm sure in history here. But let me just give you, there's six tracks.

[00:08:46] I'm just gonna give you the names of the tracks. Maybe you might guess the style of music from these tracks. Um, it starts with Crush the Snake, then goes on to Heaven's Weapon, Hymn for the Fallen, which is acoustic, Retribution, Drive Them Out, and I Won't [00:09:00] Break. This is a great album. It is, I'm gonna go with their definition of their own sound.

[00:09:04] They're a cinematic Christian metal project blending crushing riffs, melodic metalcore, and scripture-inspired themes of spiritual warfare, redemption, perseverance, and victory through Christ. Here's the thing. All of that's true, and you might say, as I did when I first came across them, "Uh, sounds a little cheesy.

[00:09:22] Sounds a little kitsch." Turns out it's just awesome. And sometimes, like, you need this kind of music that's so spiritually rich in victory with Christ, that is so expressive of... 'Cause there is, as you heard, like a tint there toward the supernatural realm, toward the battles that are in that realm. But I, sometimes you need that.

[00:09:43] This is fantastic. The only word of warning I have is that, so if you're not into that style, and there is, like, beautiful, it's very melodic. There's a lot of beautiful melodies in this. A lot of, like, the voices are really truly fantastic. So it's worth listening to for just for that But my warning is, um, [00:10:00] kind of strange.

[00:10:01] This track three, it's acoustic, it's Hymn for the Fallen, is, uh, exactly what it is. It's almost like an anthem for those, uh, condemned to hell, and it is troublingly haunting. Uh, I think it's, like, exactly theologically precise, and it's beautiful in its own right. It's a strange song to listen to because it is beautiful in its expression.

[00:10:22] The music is phenomenal, and again, the voice work from this, this single artist is incredible. His range is fantastic. I think it'll leave you at parts just almost breathless. And yet what they're singing about is not quite a celebration, but it is like a song of mourning. And every, uh, time I listen to it, and I wanna listen to it, and yet when you're done with it, you do feel this different sense and urgency for those around you.

[00:10:46] So that's my only warning is it's a really complex little EP, but it's strong, and it's beautiful, and it's glorious, and it's a little bit haunting, and it's certainly convicting and challenging. So it turns out, I guess I do like... I [00:11:00]just love the word cinematic. Like, I'm not sure entirely all that it entails, but I think it's probably an, an accurate description.

[00:11:07] So if you're looking for some new music or some different music, I highly recommend Invictus because I think you'll be blessed by them

[00:11:16] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. My, um, my musical, uh, I don't know, repertoire consists mostly of, like, kids worship bop music. Uh, so, uh, maybe I'll, maybe I'll put that on the next time I'm in the car by myself just to listen to some sort of, like-

[00:11:34] I don't know, like grown-up music. 'Cause, 'cause I don't listen to a lot of grown-up music as it is now. I, if, if I'm lucky, I get a couple, uh, couple minutes on the bus or something like that to listen to some real, real adult music. But yeah, I'll, I'll have to check it out, and there's always a chance that this will be the screaming music or the heavy music that I like.

[00:11:55] There's always a chance.

[00:11:57] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. It's more, it's more heavy than maybe screaming. There is a [00:12:00] little bit of that good rasp, but it brings me back to, you and I are of a certain age. I'm, I'm older than you, but I think back to, like, maybe that late '90s, early 2000s, kinda like Creed style. Mm. Like, almost like that, but a little bit deeper and richer and, and a little bit harder.

[00:12:16] But it's, it's not, I think, so dissonant that the average ear wouldn't find great value in it. And again, that- Yeah ... third track, which is acoustic, is very beautiful in its own right. It's just a very strange song. Usually you don't hear a song like that, and it really caught me by surprise. And the more I listen to it, the more it does create some kind of mourning within you, and I've thought about it quite a bit, even as I interact with people around me, thinking about the essential emergency of what it means that souls are, are in play here, so to speak.

[00:12:44] That, of course, they're all under the providence of God, but He used us as a means in which to preach that gospel message, and we ought to be about that gospel message. And I suppose- Yeah ... in point, that started the podcast as we talked about the gospel and became excited every time we spoke about the [00:13:00] gospel, and then it's, it flowed into this whole series we're doing on the parables.

[00:13:04] Back To Luke 11 Reading

[00:13:04] Jesse Schwamb: And now, of course, we find it again in Luke chapter 11 here And I was excited to speak with you because I tried to set up for everybody, ourselves included, just like all of the little prolegomena, all the, all the kinda like little fine, fun details of like the circumstance and the interaction that's happening in this parable.

[00:13:23] But really the punchline comes in this, I would say, unexpected twist that one, we have this friend going to another, and the friend is reluctant when he really shouldn't be, and there's this incredible juxtaposition of, well, how much more so is God going to be less reluctant because He's our Father, and He delights to give us that which is good, the best of gifts.

[00:13:43] And this sometimes gets turned around in that we ought to just really continually annoy God to the extent that He just gives us the very thing, and that somehow this is explained to us that we have to have enough perseverance, hope against hope, to continue to pray against all odds. And instead what we find [00:14:00] buried in this parable is something far better than that.

[00:14:02] Actually, the gift that God gives us is something that we really could not conceive of apart from the gospel itself. So I'm gonna take us back- Yeah ... into Luke chapter 11. I'm gonna read the whole passage or the parable that we were just talking about, started it last week. But we're really gonna pick it up in this, so everybody can be listening, at this turning point where Jesus begins to speak about the role of the Father and what He desires to give us.

[00:14:27] So this is Luke chapter 11, beginning verse one. "And it happened that while Jesus was praying in a certain place, after He had finished, one of the disciples said to Him, 'Lord, teach us to pray just as John also taught his disciples.' And He said to them, 'When you pray, say, "Father, hallowed be Your name. Your kingdom come.

[00:14:45] Give us each our daily bread. And forgive us our sins, for we ourselves also forgive everyone who is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation."' Then He said to them, 'Which of you has a friend and will go to him at midnight and say to him, 'Friend, lend me [00:15:00] three loaves for a friend has come to me from a journey, and I have nothing to set before him.'

[00:15:05] And from the inside he answers, 'Do not bother me. The door has already been shut, and my children and I are in bed. I cannot rise up and give you anything.' I tell you, even though he will not rise up and give him anything because he is his friend, yet because of his persistence, he will get up and give him as much as we needs.

[00:15:23] So I say to you, ask and it will be given to you. Seek and you will find. Knock and it will be opened to you. For everyone who receives asks, and he who, he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks will be opened. But what father among you, if his son asks for a fish, will give him a snake instead of a fish? Or if his son asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion?

[00:15:45] If then you being evil know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give you the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him?'"

[00:15:57] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:15:59] Tony Unpacks The Parable Logic

[00:15:59] Tony Arsenal: This is, um, one of those passages that I think... I think you're exactly right. We, we sort of fall into a very specific way of thinking because for some good reasons, right?

[00:16:13] Like, this is a parable about prayer. It's couched, y- you know, it's, it's sort of sandwiched in different parts tea- teaching about prayer. And so I think we, we instinctively, kinda like we saw with the Parable of the Good Samaritan, we kind of instinctively assume who certain characters in the, in the analogy here are, right?

[00:16:34] Sure. Just like in the, the Parable of the Good Samaritan, we kind of assume that, like, the neighbor that is being talked about is the guy who got beat up and left for dead, but in, in the s- the punchline, we find out it's actually the Samaritan. In this case, I think we assume the person who is being, um, who is being e- entreated upon must represent God, and the person who is doing the entreating, uh, is, you know, is us.[00:17:00]

[00:17:00] And I'm not sure that the parable, a- and again, like, what even is a parable? Some people would say, "Well, this isn't a parable," but w- we're really just talking about kind of like the figures of speech ministry of Christ, the figures of the sayings of Jesus that sort of circulate around these analogies. Um, w- what even is a parable?

[00:17:19] And in this case, like- We need to be careful not to just make those assumptions without-

[00:17:25] Jesse Schwamb: Right ...

[00:17:26] Tony Arsenal: justifying them in the text because it'll lead us to the wrong conclusion. Like, like you've said, like if we assume that the person in the text, in the, the, the parable here who is being entreated upon represents God the Father, well, what we've done now is we've made God sort of like this annoying or this annoyed figure who doesn't really wanna answer our prayers, but because we harass him so much, because we're so persistent.

[00:17:51] Another translation of that word is impudence, right? It's a word that has to do with, like, almost like a shameless begging. Like, [00:18:00] it's, it's someone who is asking something that goes beyond the boundaries of appropriate.

[00:18:05] Jesse Schwamb: Right.

[00:18:05] Tony Arsenal: Right? It's, it's impudence, it's persistence, but it's not just persistence in that, like, it's not just stick-to-it-iveness.

[00:18:12] It's like persistence to the point of being, uh, inappropriate is really what this word is getting at. Well, now what we've done is we've made it so we have to inappropriately pursue God for prayer. Right. So I'm, I'm glad you set it up this way to sort of say, like, we need to think about this parable. Yes, there's something here about prayer, for sure.

[00:18:29] There's more here about the fact that God desires to give us good gifts, but we really need to understand how it is that this teaching is functioning in almost like a, a, almost like a contrasting example kind of way compared to, like, a direct example. It, it's, it's not, it's not exactly an argument to the lesser, from the lesser to the greater.

[00:18:51] I mean, it kind of is.

[00:18:52] Jesse Schwamb: Right.

[00:18:52] Tony Arsenal: But it's, it's almost like a reverse argument from the lesser to the greater. Like, there's this lesser that's so much lesser that he's actually [00:19:00] sort of- Yes ... like an annoying, like not a super admirable, noble figure. Then how much more noble is God? It's kind of the, the sort of the force of this parable, the force of this teaching.

[00:19:09] Jesse Schwamb: Yes. I like how you said that. It was... You crystallized something I've been thinking about, which was, it's almost like in this text, think of, like, these two different shores. On one shore is this function, the action, and the worship of, uh, through prayer. On the other shore is this g- great supreme gift of the Holy Spirit, and there's something about a bridge that's being built between these two things, and it starts with this really interesting analogy.

[00:19:34] But then there's, like, this turning point from friend to father, and for me, what, like I mentioned last week, I'm seeing, I'm picking up, maybe too much so, all of this interesting covenantal shadows and language here. And so, like, in this shifting, specifically from this analogy to friend to fa- from friend to father, there's almost in my mind, like, an intensifying of the relational bond.

[00:19:56] I mean, friendship being voluntary and revocable, fatherhood, [00:20:00] especially in ancient thought, bound by nature, and then that again, covenant obligation. It does strengthen this interesting logic that's unfolding for us. But it's as if the bridge that's being built here by Jesus is taking and uniting or bringing together this idea of good gifts of the Father, and the greatest gift being the Holy Spirit, and prayer and how that accomplishes or receives or invokes those gifts, and the bridge being the right way in which to think about prayer and the right mode in which to consider prayer so as to ask for the things in the name of Jesus according to God's will, that is the greatest of all gifts, which is the Holy Spirit.

[00:20:36] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.

[00:20:36] Hospitality Context And Midnight Bread

[00:20:36] Tony Arsenal: And I, I think it's interesting too because this teaching, this parable opens with y- you know, kind of a s- sort of standard format that Christ use, uses in some of these circumstances, where He's talking to an audience who may or may not be hostile. In some instances it's hostile. In this instance it was a friendly, a friendly audience.

[00:20:57] It was His disciples. Um, He says, "Which of [00:21:00] you who has a friend will go to him at midnight and say, 'Friend, lend me three loaves. For a friend of mine- Right ... has arrived on a journey, and I have nothing to set before him.'" This is parallel similar language to, like, which of you having a sheep who falls into a-

[00:21:22] not like everybody has experienced it, right? I think I, I've never had, like, livestock, but, like, I know my dog has gotten into stuff. Like, everybody who's had a pet is like, "Yeah, my animal has done something stupid at some point." Like, ate something stupid, got stuck in something, hurt itself. So, like, the, the, the way that this is set up is

[00:21:53] Tony Arsenal: In a way where it's like the scenario is sort of insane and nobody would [00:22:00] be in that situation. Um, and then there are times where he says, "Which of you having a friend, which of you having a sheep who falls into a ditch?"

[00:22:09] Um, and, and the assumption is on some level either the, it, it's such a common scenario that of course everyone would have understood it, right? Which of you... It's like, it's like a woman losing a coin who sweeps the house to look for the coin. Everybody who has a, a, a valuable piece of money that they lose is gonna spend time looking for it.

[00:22:29] Jesse Schwamb: That's right.

[00:22:29] Tony Arsenal: This one I think is more like that second one, which feels weird to us. Again, like we're, like you kind of alluded to and kind of joking, but I think is, is a, is a per- serious point, we can just go to the store. Like I could go to a 24-hour supermarket and buy resources if a guest shows up unexpectedly.

[00:22:46] It's not like that in the ancient world. So this statement of like, which of you Basically like which of you who has unexpected company show up would not go to your friend or neighbor and ask for something to serve them? And especially in the sort of [00:23:00] hospitality-driven culture that the 1st century was, it would've been deeply, deeply troubling for a guest, especially a, a guest who's coming on a l- from a long journey who's showing up at midnight.

[00:23:10] That feels like in our culture we'd be like, "Yeah, it's understandable that I don't have anything on hand." It would be deeply troubling for someone in that scenario to not be able to provide hospitality. So I think that's the first hurdle we have to get over with this one is the scenario feels, at least to me, feels a little bit insane, but I actually think the assumption baked into the teaching is that this is an understandable, relatable situation with an obvious answer.

[00:23:36] Of course, all of us would go beg a friend for a few loaves of bread to serve our guest who shows up unexpectedly.

[00:23:43] Jesse Schwamb: That's right. There is like a foil in all of this. Again, it's not like Jesus is not commending like wear God down with nagging as a technique, but there is a lot at stake here in this scenario that's been set forward because there's, there's honor, there's covenantal honor like I think I [00:24:00] mentioned p- last time.

[00:24:00] Again, this is where I'm seeing that there is something to be said for like the petitioner is a little bit shameless here. That is, like he's bold. It's, it's socially inappropriate maybe, the persistence in the knocking, but that's what secures the loaves. And so on this view, verse 8 does teach like persevering bold prayer.

[00:24:18] I think then what we're being lead to, try, led to try to understand is well, what kind of bold prayer here? Is it just like any kind of prayer, or is there something specific that Christ himself is directing these people to ask for in prayer? And to me, it, to like, you know, maybe preempt a little bit, it seems like, of course, like he's saying, "Ask for God, of God the only thing that God can give you.

[00:24:39] Ask boldly for that thing. Ask shamelessly, unapologetically for that thing," because we're gonna be led again to this kind of reprisal of roles here and see that he's gonna speak about himself again as, as Father, as being this really good father over and against this really reluctant friend who only gets up really because he has been annoyed, and that's certainly the opposite of [00:25:00] God's stance towards us.

[00:25:01] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.

[00:25:02] Persistence Without Impudence

[00:25:02] Tony Arsenal: And you know, there is, um, you know, like we mentioned, there's this element of- The an- sort of annoyed friend, right? And, and we don't wanna be too quick to compare God directly to the annoyed friend, right? It is this foil. It's kind of like, it's almost like God is not, is like this in some ways, but not like this- Yes

[00:25:23] in the most important ways. I actually think the asking itself falls into that category, right? In, in the context of the parable, the asking, m- maybe not the asking, but the persistence, the continuing to pound on the door when the answer no has already been delivered. That is, in the context of this teaching, is, is seen as inappropriate, right?

[00:25:45] It's, it's impudent. It's disrespectful. It's, it's an- Right ... unrelenting persistence beyond the bounds of propriety. Not only is God not like the annoying friend, or the annoyed friend, or the annoying friend, I guess, not only is God [00:26:00] not annoyed, uh, so there's this sort of like argument to the, from the lesser to the greater opposite or the greater contrary But our asking itself and our persistence is not impudent.

[00:26:13] And I think that's a really key thing here, and that's why it goes directly into the next verse. "Ask and you will g- give it given to you. Seek and you will find. Knock, it will be opened to you." He's not saying because you're so persistent, because you continue to wear God down, it's gonna be given to you.

[00:26:29] It's almost like he's saying, like, look, in this context of this parable, not only is the friend, not only did the friend say no, and the, the seeker is seeking inappropriately, and the friend finally, not out of the goodness of his heart, not out of his loyalty to his friend, not out of his desire to serve a stranger, not out of any of those noble things, just because he's annoyed, he finally gives in.

[00:26:51] Well, not only is that not what God is like, but your prayers are not like the persistent, annoying friend who won't give up when the answer is no. Right. [00:27:00] Your, your prayers are appropriate insofar as you persist. As you continue to persist, they are appropriate. And, you know, we could get into all of the Greek details about the, the participles and all of this stuff about it's, it's not just ask at one point.

[00:27:15] It's, it's continue asking, it'll be given to you. Yes. Continue knocking, it'll be given to you. Like, we can, we can go into all that, and I'm sure we'll talk about a little bit. But the reality is the sort of like durable nature of prayer, the like ongoing, persistent nature of prayer here is not established by those participles.

[00:27:32] It's established by the comparison to this inappropriate asking, this inappropriate persistence in the parable, but it's not inappropriate. And I think that's, again, like that's another sort of argument from the lesser to the greater contrary. I don't know if that's actually a term or if I invented that, but that seems like what's going on here.

[00:27:49] There's this sort of like minimum situation, and then you flip it over a little bit and, and make it bigger, and that's what we're getting at here. It's, it's sort of a strange technique that, [00:28:00] um, again, like is it present in oth- a lot of other teaching? There's obviously like the parable of the widow and the unjust judge that's basically the same situation.

[00:28:08] Right. And we're- I'm sure we'll get to that, but like it's the same basic situation. It's, it's this idea that like Christ is presenting this scenario that has this one touch point, and everything else is like flipped over. It's like everything else is sort of opposite day.

[00:28:24] Jesse Schwamb: And that is a little bit different than the stuff that we've covered so far, which is what makes this a little bit exceptional.

[00:28:29] There are ones that mirror it, but this technique-

[00:28:31] Tony Arsenal: Right ...

[00:28:31] Jesse Schwamb: is something that we haven't really come across yet, of course, in our conversations.

[00:28:35] Covenantal Frame For Ask Seek Knock

[00:28:35] Jesse Schwamb: And I would say, like, good Biblical hermeneutics, like you said, resolves all of that, what you just said, not by, like, weakening the promise, but by locating it within its covenantal frame again.

[00:28:46] Yeah. This promise is spoken to disciples who have just been taught to pray, "Your kingdom come, give us, forgive us, lead us not." That is, all of this prayer needs to be conformed to God's revealed will and kingdom priorities. And so what's hard is I [00:29:00] hear this spoken about a lot, this parable, but it always gets cut, like, from the teaching that just preceded it.

[00:29:06] Right.

[00:29:06] Why This Contrast

[00:29:06] Jesse Schwamb: Like, a- as if, again, they're coming to Jesus saying, "John was really good at providing instruction to his disciples on how to pray, and you being the Son of God, like the ultimate teacher, teach us then. How do we see you pray? We know that you're a man of prayer. We know that you're Son of God. Teach us, instruct us in this way."

[00:29:22] W- w- let's get it, as it were, the... These guys are like, "Boys, let's get it from the horse's mouth." And so it's interesting that Jesus gives the instruction, he gives the prayer, he gives some language and a framework, and then he's like, follows it immediately with this teaching. And this teaching, though, like you said, doesn't draw, like, often, like it's orthogonal.

[00:29:39] There's no, like, parallel or linear lines here- Right ... so to speak. It's, it's all about creating this weird contrast. And you might ask, "Well, why do it this way?" And so it does beg the question of does that distinction, that almost like cognitive dissonance between these characters, and then again, like the comparison to God, does that draw out in different ways this character of God so that we might actually [00:30:00] see it more clearly in that juxtaposition?

[00:30:02] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.

[00:30:03] Midnight Friend Parable

[00:30:03] Tony Arsenal: And I think, y- you know, one of the other comparisons that I think's going on here, and, and again, I think this is basically the same teaching as the, the pa- the widow and the unjust judge. Like, she wears him down with her petitioning, and he finally gives her justice. Like, I think a big part of this, the idea here is when we look at this parable, everything in the parable is- uh, understandable and relatable, right?

[00:30:28] To some extent. Um, again, we i- in our 21st century modern context, at least in the West here, we don't have a situation where we can't basically just drive to the store and get something, even, even in the middle of the night. I, I don't know m- many people personally who don't have access to some sort of 24-hour supermarket or convenience store, something where they could go and get something to present to a guest who shows up unexpected in the middle of the night.

[00:30:57] Um, and even the idea of, like, someone showing up [00:31:00] unexpected in the middle of the night is kind of like, even then, like, what we think of as unexpected is, like, the person calls us and they're like, "Hey, I'm 35 minutes away. I'm gonna be there. Do you have a bed I can use?" What we're talking about here in the 1st century is literally like, I'm asleep, all of a sudden there's a pounding on my door, and my friend has come from a long journey.

[00:31:18] There's no advance notice, there's no messenger that came. This is literally just someone who appears out of nowhere in the middle of the night, and so he has to go get something. That is actually a somewhat relatable situation, even to us What I think is interesting, what I, what I really love about these, this parable and the other one I referenced, is when you think about the way that the, the friend, the annoyed friend, the friend who's sleeping and gets woken up, the way he responds is still to provide the need.

[00:31:49] But then look at how we are... Look at the language around how God gives us good gifts, right? Right.

[00:31:56] Ask Seek Knock

[00:31:56] Tony Arsenal: He's not giving us... It, it's almost like the teaching is God gives us good gifts. We should ask, we should persevere in prayer. If you continue asking, it will be given to you. If you continue knocking, it, it will be opened to you.

[00:32:07] If you continue seeking, you will find. Like, that's the, that's the positive teaching of this. But the contrast is not just, yeah, if you continue to be persistent enough, you're gonna get what you ask for. It's, look, God is going to give you what you need and what you ask for. He's going to give that to you joyfully and out of his own abundance and out of his own desire to bless you with good gifts.

[00:32:30] Not like this worldly dude who just does it 'cause he's annoyed.

[00:32:34] Jesse Schwamb: Exactly.

[00:32:34] Tony Arsenal: So it's not just the argument of like, here's a picture of somebody who's persisting in prayer and gets what they want, and like, yeah, we have some language about the guy being annoyed and about inappropriate asking. God's not quite like that.

[00:32:47] God Not Annoyed

[00:32:47] Tony Arsenal: It's really designed to paint this picture of marveling at the goodness and, and graciousness of, of God in that not only does he grant us what we need, but he does so [00:33:00] joyfully. We could not petition him enough to be annoying to him. There is no boundary for when it is inappropriate to stop asking or seeking or knocking.

[00:33:12] That's the real point of this, is not to just compare God to this annoyed friend who finally gives in, but to show us, like, this is what the world looks like. When you ask enough, you might get what you want, but you're going to annoy someone. That's what worldly pr- like, persistence in lateral prayer, if we wanna call it that, just to sort of keep the analogy going, right?

[00:33:33] Lateral prayer, lateral petitioning, or lateral whatever. Like, lateral interceding, all of those things, however we wanna phrase it. That is real, and yes, if you do it long enough, you're probably gonna get what you want. You might burn a bridge in the process. You can never burn the bridge to God by being so annoying, because he's saying continue to ask, continue to seek- Right

[00:33:55] continue to knock, and it will be given to you. And not only will it be given to you, but it will [00:34:00] be given to you out of the joy and goodness of my heart. That is really the big comparison that's going on here

[00:34:06] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, there's something that we just get to see about God's character here. It's grounds this perseverance not in doubt about God's willingness, but in confidence about it.

[00:34:15] And that's what's so interesting here is it comes about by seeing this distinction. It is like a great mockery of saying like you're saying this friend who w- should've been a good friend and had all the reason to be reluctant, even though you pers- persevered with him, he relented and gave you that very thing.

[00:34:32] Guess who will be the exact opposite of that? Yeah. Is God himself who lavishes love upon you. And so therefore because of that, you come before him and see he's nothing like this friend. And even a friend will do this in the worst of all circumstances. How much more so will God, where he's given you every spiritual blessing in Christ?

[00:34:50] From Friend To Father

[00:34:50] Jesse Schwamb: And that's, that's where he leads us, and that's why I think then it transitions to this different set of characters or comparisons by speaking about fathers. So in verse [00:35:00] 11, where we find written, "What father among you, if he has sons, asks for a fish will instead of a fish give him a serpent? Or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion?"

[00:35:09] And, and I've read that there's some commentators who will draw from these pairs being chosen for maybe, like, their potential visual tactile resemblance. Like, a, an eel-like fish might have resembled a snake, and generally there were, like, these whitish scorpions I, I guess that were common in Galilee that might have resembled an egg.

[00:35:26] And perhaps even here there's a little bit of humor in the illustration just to show, like, just the extreme nonsensical nature of this thing. It's, it's- Yeah ... a really cruel bait and switch. It's deliberate. You know, Jesus is appealing certainly to this universally recognized parental instinct as evidence, again, like you're saying, Tony, for a still greater divine instinct which is present, and that's this love of God for us that we can't even imagine.

[00:35:49] But we can comprehend by him saying, "Come, ask, seek, knock." And so, so to me, I think we've got these two axes kind of going on here which are really interesting and beautiful. We've got the reluctant friend [00:36:00] to the willing father. That's a kind of, like, I would say again, like, relational intensification. Like, we're firing it up.

[00:36:05] Here, we're taking it to the next level. And then because we got... I gotta slip this in because we got a little, a little TD coming in here hot. From the second axis is from, like, the sinful human father to the holy divine Father, which I would say is, like, a moral intensification, and that's made explicit in verse 13.

[00:36:24] Total Depravity Common Grace

[00:36:24] Jesse Schwamb: And here's the TD. Like, lest anybody doubt this, to me, and I don't want to over-read, but that second axis is of course where Reformed theology's doctrine of total depravity becomes, like, exegetically significant here. Yeah. Because Jesus himself just calls it out in this verse, and that's part of the, the setup that he's gonna bring forward to explain just how loving God is.

[00:36:44] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah, and it's even, um... It's not only is it total depravity, it's also common grace, right? Yes. Even evil, even evil, wicked people. And again, like, evil is a, is in this instance is sort of a relative term, right? It's, it's, um- [00:37:00] The audience is the disciples, at least primarily the disciples. So it's not like he's talking to, he's talking to unregenerate people, right?

[00:37:09] Jesse Schwamb: Right.

[00:37:09] Tony Arsenal: Um, the, the disciples by all realistic assessment, I think, uh, were regenerate w- with the exception of Judas at this point. Um, you know, you could make some arguments that maybe some of them came to faith during the course of his ministry, but, uh, for the most part we should think of the disciples not as like coming to faith and becoming regenerate after Christ is raised.

[00:37:31] Like, they're, they're believers, they're followers with the exception of Judas at this point in his ministry, and he's still calling them evil. But even Even an unregenerate father, for the most part. There are exceptions. There are, are, there are those who are so wicked that even their base parental instincts are messed up, right?

[00:37:51] And that's reality. It's terribly sad, but that's, that's the vast exception. Even the worst parents in the world still love their [00:38:00] kids and wanna give them good, good gifts. Like, it's just baked into the genetics of wanting to do that. Even that still is, uh, is an act of common grace. But I, I think you're right, too, and actually, as I think about it, too, like, this isn't even just one parable.

[00:38:14] Right. This is actually, if we're talking about the first one as a parable, this is actually, like, its own second parable, right? That's which of you, having a friend that shows up in the middle of the night, would not go- Yep ... and then there's, "Now what father among you?" And it's, again, it's that eminently understandable, relatable scenario where either it, it's so common that everyone has dealt with it, or it's so, like, obviously practical that even if you haven't dealt with it, you, you couldn't come to any other conclusion.

[00:38:42] Right. What father among you, if your son asks for a fish, would give him a serpent, right? It's one of those, like, who does that? The answer is no- nobody. Right.

[00:38:53] Jesse Schwamb: Exactly. Right?

[00:38:53] Tony Arsenal: Who, who asks for an egg and gives a scorpion? Nobody. So we've got these two [00:39:00]scenarios where the assumption is there's a question that has an obvious outcome, and it drives us to this understanding of the, this image of God as the supremely good giver of gifts, father, faithful, gracious provider, who provides not just a good gift, but the ultimate perfect necessary gift.

[00:39:22] Jesse Schwamb: Yes.

[00:39:22] Tony Arsenal: Right?

[00:39:22] How Much More Spirit

[00:39:22] Tony Arsenal: And that's where we come to, uh, at the end of verse 13 is how much more, right, there's that argument from... This is truly an argument from the lesser to the greater, like in the purest sense. How much more will the Heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him? And I think there's all sorts of implications that we can come out of this, right?

[00:39:42] Um, there are those, uh, in the Christian world who never ask for the gift of the Holy Spirit. And, and I'm not, um, I wanna be careful here because I'm not a two-stage salvation person. I'm not a second blessing person, right? We get the Holy Spirit as part of our [00:40:00] regeneration. Like, the Holy Spirit indwells us in regeneration and in, in, not in necessarily in regeneration, but when we are united to Christ, we're united to Christ by the, by the Spirit.

[00:40:10] Right. And so there's never a point where we can be considered truly saved Christians- Those who are united to Christ, we cannot be united to Christ and not have His Spirit dwelling within us. But there is this element of the subjective experience of the Holy Spirit where we don't ask for the Holy Spirit, right?

[00:40:31] Think of, like, Psalm 51, right? "Take not your Holy Spirit from me." David was not saying, uh, "I've lost the Holy Spirit." He was talking about the enjoyment of the presence of the Holy Spirit, the awareness of the gracious, loving presence of the Holy Spirit. That's what he was asking not to have taken away from him, and, and probably also there was elements of, like, anointing and office that were in there.

[00:40:52] But there are lots of Christians who have the Holy Spirit in an objective sense- Right ... who don't take time [00:41:00] to ask the Father for the Holy Spirit in the subjective sense. I think that's the final sort of payout of this teaching, is that we need to continue to ask, continue to knock, and continue to seek, not for general gifts.

[00:41:16] Yes, there's a general teaching about persevering in prayer for temporal blessings or spiritual protection, all of those things, all of those petitions that we have. Those are good things. It's good to be persistent in those. But the real point of this whole series of teachings here is that we need to persist in prayer to ask the Father for the Holy Spirit.

[00:41:36] Like- Right ... full stop. That's the point

[00:41:40] Jesse Schwamb: Right. Wow, you just did a full stop right there. I thought there was gonna be more, but I, I was getting pumped as you were going on No, no.

[00:41:46] Tony Arsenal: It's all you. Full stop.

[00:41:49] Jesse Schwamb: Uh, yeah.

[00:41:50] Luke Versus Matthew

[00:41:50] Jesse Schwamb: I mean, the comparison, of course, is not one of degree alongside, like, a single continuum where it's as though God is a better version of a human father, but it's a kind.

[00:41:59] I mean, [00:42:00] God's fatherhood is the archetype of which human fatherhood is just this faint, fallen kind of analog. And so by the time you get to this payload, I like that. It's kinda like a nuclear bomb in a way. I mean, it's so theologically loaded here. Because I was just looking up Matthew's parallel passage here, and it reads, th- this is his punchline, "How much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him?"

[00:42:26] So it strikes me that Luke, as we've been saying, writing to a largely Gentile audience after Pentecost, and with his kinda characteristic pneumatological emphasis, he emphasizes or specifies that the good things here are the Holy Spirit himself. And so we're gonna read this not as a contradiction between the Gospels, but as Luke's inspired Spirit-guided clarification/specification of what the good gifts ultimately are.

[00:42:54] And while they're always pointing toward that even this temporal good gift from the Father is subordinate to and [00:43:00] finds, I guess it's like its telos in the supreme covenantal gift of God's own indwelling presence. That is a bomb. Like, that's incredible. Yeah. And so I like what you're saying here. I think it is a challenge for Christians to think about not just that we shouldn't, of course, go to God with the big and the small things, the concerns of all our lives, the anxieties and the cares which we cast before him.

[00:43:20] This is all part and parcel of what real prayer means, what real communion with God is, and speaking with him and listening to his Word, uh, i- in our ear. At the same time, we shouldn't forsake the greater things that we ought to ask God with strong perseverance, knowing that he will give all those things to us.

[00:43:38] I think, and you correct me if I'm wrong, I, I'm reading this as- All of this kind of momentum in Christ teaching about the Spirit coming and about where this passage had been placed in the whole kind of grand arc, and I, I think there's, like, all kinds of Ordo Salutis implications in here. But I love a good Ordo Salutis implication, so it's possible [00:44:00] I'm just coming in a little bit too hot.

[00:44:01] But I think first it, it anchors this teaching within this broader Lucan narrative, narrative arc toward Pentecost, where the ascended, glorified Christ pours out the Spirit as the chief blessing of the new covenant. And so again, I'm reading this, I'm like, "Covenant, covenant, covenant." Like, only if you're watching this on YouTube can you actually see me do the, the point, like the g- the finger guns-

[00:44:24] where really strongly emphasize that point. And so I just see so much covenant in this. I mean, how mu- how much covenant, how much covenant do you see in this, Tony?

[00:44:36] Covenant Obligations

[00:44:36] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, I mean, I, there, there is also this element, and this goes back to sort of the first parable or the first teaching in this little segment here, um- The friend is obligated in a certain sense.

[00:44:48] Like- Yes ... there is, there is a, there's a sense, a real sense I think, and again, this is something I don't think we understand. If, if, um, if I show up at my neighbor's house, my n- I live in a [00:45:00] small community. My neighbor's house is like 25 feet away from me, and if I knocked on his door in the middle of the night and said, "Gus, I need a cup of sugar," he would give it to me with a smile.

[00:45:11] But he's not obligated to do that. Right. He has every right, and no one would look sideways at him if he told me to pound sand and go back to bed, right? I think, um, in the 1st century, the answer from this other friend, "No, I'm already in bed," like that actually is sort of a scandalous answer in and of itself.

[00:45:29] And so even within that little dynamic, there's covenant implications, right? The a- the continued asking is inappropriate, but it, the continued asking is almost only reasonably necessary because the annoyed friend already broke a social contract. Not quite a covenant- Right ... but we might call it a social contract, where there's an a- there's an assumed position in the 1st century that if someone comes to you asking for hospitality, you give it.

[00:45:57] Like there's no exclu- And that's what's [00:46:00] driving this other friend to go talk to him in mid- at midnight in the first place, is I have to provide hospitality. I'm obligated to do so. So I think, yeah, there's all sorts of covenant implications here. And when we're talking about the, the earthly fathers, right?

[00:46:14] There's a covenant, um, I'm, I'm careful to use the term covenant. So I'm gonna use it, but I'm not talking, maybe we'll say lowercase C covenant rather than like formal covenants. Right, right. There's a, there's a covenantal, lowercase C

[00:46:28] covenantal obligation that fathers have to their children, right? I didn't make a covenant with August and Addie, but I have obligations to them in light of my station and my role related to them, right? And there's an obligation that if they ask me for something that is reasonable and is good for them, that I should give it to them, right?

[00:46:46] I'm obligated to provide food, shelter, um, I would say things like education, love, um, you know, attention. Like the things that are necessary for the health and wellbeing of my children, as a father I'm obligated to give that to them. [00:47:00]

[00:47:00] Jesse Schwamb: Right.

[00:47:00] Tony Arsenal: Whether they ask me or not. When they ask me to, right, there are times it's funny.

[00:47:05] I, I'll be the first to say, um, I maybe am a little bit on my phone more than I should be, just in general, right? There are times now Addie is old enough where she sees me on her ph- on my phone, and, and sometimes, like, it's fine. They're playing and I'm, I'm doing something on my phone. There are times where she'll come up to me and she'll say, "Daddy phone," and she'll tell me to put my phone down.

[00:47:23] I'm obligated to do that. Like, there's a covenantal, lowercase C, covenantal obligation. When she asks me to play with her, if there's not a pressing reason I can't, I should play with her.

[00:47:33] Jesse Schwamb: Right.

[00:47:33] Tony Arsenal: That is really what we have at play here, and this is, this is what I think is amazing. God has covenantally bound himself to grant us the Holy Spirit when we ask him, right?

[00:47:42] Jesse Schwamb: That's

[00:47:43] Tony Arsenal: what I'm

[00:47:43] Jesse Schwamb: saying.

[00:47:43] Tony Arsenal: That, and that's, that's, um, that covenantal obligation first and foremost... Man, I didn't even think we were gonna get here. Who would've thought we would've gotten to pretemporal covenant of redemption here just- Would you

[00:47:53] Jesse Schwamb: look at us ...

[00:47:54] Tony Arsenal: uh, look at us.

[00:47:55] Covenant Of Redemption

[00:47:55] Tony Arsenal: Um, that covenantal obligation that the Father has to give us the Holy Spirit when we ask is not primarily his covenant with us.

[00:48:03] It is, right? It's the covenant of grace, but that only is, is necessary because of his prior commitment and covenantal obligation to his Son to grant him a people who would be marked by and redeemed and have redemption applied by the Holy Spirit. The Father has promised the Son to give the people of the Son the Holy Spirit when they ask.

[00:48:26] That's, that's profound in a way that I think, um, really only Reformed theology can fully get at-

[00:48:33] Jesse Schwamb: Right

[00:48:34] Tony Arsenal: on ... is that there is a promise that God the Father made to God the Son to, to send the Holy Spirit to apply the redemption that the Son purchased to his people. That's really what we're getting at here.

[00:48:46] I think that's really the, sort of the final outcome of this, is there's this covenantal obligation- That the Father is not just out of His own goodness, of course out of His own goodness- Right,

[00:48:57] Jesse Schwamb: right ...

[00:48:57] Tony Arsenal: but even maybe if it, maybe it's, [00:49:00] hopefully it's not blasphemous to say this, but like even more than just His own goodness is His covenant faithfulness to the promise He's made- Amen

[00:49:07] first and foremost to His Son, and then to steal some language from the Westminster Larger Catechism, first and foremost to His Son, but then also to all the elect in Him who are His spiritual seed.

[00:49:17] Jesse Schwamb: That's right. That's right. That's, see that's the good stuff.

[00:49:20] Wrap Up Holy Spirit

[00:49:20] Jesse Schwamb: And so what's crazy is then this beautiful wrap-up, which is brings us back to exactly where we started, but we find that we're on another level because the passage closes exactly as it began with this imperative of asking, but now the object of asking has been specified as God's own personal presence and power, not merely material provision.

[00:49:41] And so it's everything you just said all wrapped up, and we can ground then like the practice of specifically and explicitly praying for the Spirit's fresh working, which is sanctification, assurance, gifts for ministry, as entirely a biblical form of prayer distinct from, though not opposed to, a prayer for providential [00:50:00] needs.

[00:50:00] In other words, I think the disciples started in a place where they were saying, "Teach us to pray so that we might receive that what which we need." And it's almost as if God says, "I will do that and one better for you. Because not only will I just open your eyes to the thing that you need most, but I'm going to instruct you on how to ask for and then receive by way of these covenantal promises, by way of my own character, my faithful precis- provision, both in establishing the promise and then seeing it to fulfillment that you might have the Holy Spirit reside within you."

[00:50:33] And that is mind-boggling. We've, we've talked before just what it is to even conceive that God's presence be with us, but then that God's presence it, uh, the Holy Spirit, one of the Trinity, would be residing within us is just inconceivable. Yeah. Even now with the words coming out of my mouth it just sounds wild.

[00:50:51] And yet that is what we have to give credit to here is we have to take God at His word. This is the thing that He's, He said to us. His son, His Son Himself has given us this proper [00:51:00] instruction. And I think all, all the other things we talked about, what it means again to seek after gifts for ministry, to serve in our churches and congregations, to have grand assurance, which is the right and the purview and the blessing, the propriety of the Christian to, uh, want to go after sanctification, that all of this strikes me now is part of praying for, to receive the Holy Spirit, a fresh working of the Holy Spirit in that it's not just, it's both like a command and a gift and the greatest privilege of the Christian.

[00:51:32] And we find it all wrapped up in this little parable.

[00:51:36] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.

[00:51:37] Telegram Discussion Prompts

[00:51:37] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, and you know, we're coming up on time here and, and I don't think we'll need to do another episode, but I'll, I'll throw a couple little teasers out. And what I would love to see happen, uh, we have this little Telegram chat. Telegram is just this little instant messaging app.

[00:51:51] Uh, all sorts of different groups use it. What we use it for is to slice out a little corner of the internet that is populated with brothers and sisters who love the [00:52:00] Lord and want to get after it in a way that isn't the normal snarkiness and aggressiveness that you see on most, not all, but most of Reformed, uh, the Reformed internet world.

[00:52:12] Uh, you can join it by going to t.me/reformedbrotherhood. And what I would love to see, right? Go to t.me/reformedbrotherhood, join the Telegram chat. I would love to see some conversation around these two maybe, like, threads we could pull on a little bit more. The first thing is this prayer, right? And then of course this, the prayer that Ch- Christ teaches his disciples, and of course the Matthean version of this is a little bit longer, it has a little bit more details, but it's the same basic prayer.

[00:52:40] The prayer that, that Christ teaches his disciples is a distinctly Christian prayer, and in this passage at least, it's in contrast to the way John's disciples were taught to pray.

[00:52:51] Jesse Schwamb: Right.

[00:52:51] Tony Arsenal: Right? The disciples come and say, "Teach us to pray the way John taught his disciples to pray." Christ teaches them to pray.

[00:52:59] Well, some of [00:53:00] these people were John's disciples, right? These were people who, who were out in the wilderness seeing John, and, and th- they would have understood the way that John had taught his disciples to pray. And Christ teaches them something different. So let's, let's talk about that in the Telegram chat.

[00:53:14] What, how is this distinctly Christian? Right on.

[00:53:16] Trinity In Old Testament

[00:53:16] Tony Arsenal: The other thing that I think is really interesting here And this is something that I think a lot of people don't, um, they either don't pick up on, or maybe they don't think is as big of a deal as maybe I do, and maybe it's not that big of a deal. But there's an assumption, and, and this isn't Luke's assumption, right?

[00:53:34] I think some people would look at this and see this as like a, an after-the-fact insertion of Trinitarian pneumatology, right? That there's the Father, and the Father gives the Holy Spirit, is a distinctly Trinitarian statement. Well, Christ was teaching his disciples, and there was nobody that was like, "Wait a second, Jesus.

[00:53:55] Uh, what are you talking about with the Holy Spirit?" Like- Yes ... this was already baked into their own re- like, [00:54:00] religion and spirituality. Right. Nobody batted an eye at the fact that the Father and the Holy Spirit were being distinguished from each other in this passage. And as I alluded to earlier, nobody batted an eye when David said it.

[00:54:12] So- Right ... there, there's this assumption, I think, in a lot of sectors that, like, Old Testament religion was, was so Unitarian that, like, Trinitarian language, yeah, I guess we could shoehorn it into the Old Testament, and like, types and shadows, and like, yeah, there's a dark room fully furnished, and, um... But the reality is, like, loved ones, the reality is that the, the Trinity was on full display in most of the Old Testament.

[00:54:42] Um, I, I know there are a lot of really strong voices in the Reformed world who I- And I think for good reasons, right? This is not me saying they're so wrong that they're dumb. But for a lot of reasons, wanna actually act like we can't read the Old Testament and see the Trinity clearly, and I think that's just not right.[00:55:00]

[00:55:00] So I would love, I would love to see some conversation around this idea, too. Like, what are some ways that the Bible is Trinitarian, not just through and through in the New Testament? It's clear that the New Testament is a Trinitarian document. How is the Old Testament a Trinitarian document?

[00:55:14] Jesse Schwamb: Right.

[00:55:14] Tony Arsenal: How is the teaching of Christ in, presented in the Gospels Trinitarian teaching?

[00:55:20] I think in this passage, it's totally unavoidable. Christ is clearly teaching a Trinitarian movement of the Father sending the Holy Spirit to his people because of his love, primarily for his Son and for his people in him. I, I just think that's amazing. So I couldn't, I couldn't close the episode without us at least touching on the fact that, like- Jesus is teaching a full-on Trinitarian teaching right here in the middle of his ministry in- Nice

[00:55:46] in the New Testament. Like, it- we don't need to wait until after Pentecost to talk about the Trinity. Christ certainly didn't. Right.

[00:55:55] Jesse Schwamb: Right. Uh, you're so right about that. And by the way, loved ones, you got your [00:56:00]homework. So go to t.me/reformedbrotherhood and come hang out. You've got your marching orders. We expect, uh, how...

[00:56:08] I mean, is like four or five-page essay, is that sufficient? Or should we have a higher-

[00:56:14] Tony Arsenal: Yeah ...

[00:56:14] Jesse Schwamb: page count limit? I mean, I just wanna be realistic about that. So I love that we're able to speak about this together finally, because we've been thinking about it for a little while.

[00:56:24] Final Takeaways And Close

[00:56:24] Jesse Schwamb: And I would say, I'm trying to wrap this up, what, what have we learned about this little Parable of the Night Friend?

[00:56:30] One, Parable of the Night Friend is an excellent title for this. Again, I don't, it's almost like Night at the Museum, maybe that's what I'm hearing. So I, I don't know, it just, there's something about that combination of words that just sounds very mysterious and awesome. And it turns out it doesn't teach a doctrine of prayer as a technique, somehow like wearing down a reluctant God, but a doctrine of prayer as a filial confidence grounded in the Father's revealed character, exercised through this persevering, believing, [00:57:00] asking.

[00:57:00] And it's a kind of confidence that's made possible only because of who the Father has shown himself to be in Christ, and sealed by the Spirit whom Christ has obtained for his people, and whom he's willing to give if we ask. So we, we should ask, seek, find, knock. We should do all the verbs which God has been, already done for us so that we might participate in them and receive his Holy Spirit.

[00:57:26] And maybe, again, the challenge for all of us is to pray for a, a new freshness in that, a fresh work of the Holy Spirit for those things like assurance in ministries and sanctification. There's nothing wrong with this. Uh, we can come back to this well which will never run dry, and from which we are encouraged to drink and drink and drink again.

[00:57:44] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah, Jesse, that's a good place, I think, to, to wrap it up. The Bible is such a well of knowledge and wisdom, and I, I just, I love that we're in the midst of this series where we're just driven back into the Word again and [00:58:00] again and again and again. And I think, you know, I, I know that there are lots of different places people go to get sort of like Bible teaching, Reformed teaching, and I'm just so honored that we have this little slice of the internet with people who- Me too

[00:58:14] feel like we're worth listening to. I don't always think we're worth listening to. Me too. But I'm glad that someone out there finds it beneficial. So with all of that said, uh, we would love to see you come back next week. We'd love to see you chat about this in the Telegram chat, and we would love to have you come back to just join us as we continue through this series on the Parables.

[00:58:31] So until then, honor everyone.

[00:58:34] Jesse Schwamb: Love the brotherhood. [00:59:00]

In this solo episode, Jesse sets the stage for an upcoming conversation with Tony by diving into one of Jesus' most theologically rich parables — the Parable of the Midnight Friend in Luke 11. Rather than treating this as a simple lesson on prayer technique, Jesse unpacks the passage as a carefully constructed theological argument: a qal wahomer (lesser-to-greater) reasoning that ultimately reveals the character of God the Father. Set within Luke's central travel narrative, the parable is not free-floating wisdom — it is discipleship instruction delivered by the Messiah en route to Jerusalem and the cross. The episode challenges common misreadings that pit persistence against divine sovereignty and instead grounds persevering prayer in confidence in God's willing, lavish character. The culmination — the gift of the Holy Spirit — awaits next week.

Key Takeaways

• The parable's literary structure is intentional and theological — the Lord's Prayer leads to the parable, which leads to a promise (ask, seek, knock), which is grounded in the Father's character and the gift of the Holy Spirit.
• The sleeping friend is not a type of God — he functions as the lesser pole in a lesser-to-greater argument; identifying him with God is a category error that compromises divine immutability and aseity.
• Persistence in prayer is grounded in confidence, not desperation — the point is not to wear God down, but to recognize that a God who is not reluctant, not asleep, and not inconvenienced will give all the more freely.
• The a fortiori (lesser-to-greater) structure is the interpretive key — Jesus deliberately invokes cognitive dissonance through an imperfect analogy so that the contrast reveals something about God's character that a direct statement could not.
• Ask, seek, knock are present-tense imperatives in Greek — they denote continuous action, matched by divine passives in the promises, meaning God himself is the subject acting behind every answer.
• The promise is absolute within its covenantal frame — "everyone who asks receives" is not a blank check, but a promise spoken to disciples praying according to God's revealed will, in the name of the Son, by the help of the Spirit.
• The passage has a redemptive-historical dimension — it sits within Luke's travel narrative where Jesus is forming the disciples' inner life as He moves toward the very cross that makes the Spirit gift of verse 13 possible.

Key Concepts The Sleeping Friend Is Not God

One of the most persistent misreadings of this parable is the identification of the reluctant, sleeping friend with God — as though Jesus were teaching that dogged repetition in prayer will eventually wear down a half-willing deity. Jesse is careful to reject this firmly on both exegetical and theological grounds. The sleeping friend functions as the lesser pole of a rabbinic a fortiori argument: a flawed, inconvenienced human who still yields to legitimate need. James 1:17 seals the case — the Father is one "with whom there is no variation or shadow due to change." An immutable God cannot be represented by a changeable, reluctant figure. The friend's reluctance is not a window into God's character; it is a foil designed to make God's willing generosity shine all the brighter by contrast.

Persevering Prayer Is Grounded in Confidence, Not Doubt

A common application drawn from this parable is essentially motivational: don't give up, pray harder, keep going. While there is something right about that call to perseverance, Jesse argues it is being drawn from the wrong well. Biblical perseverance in prayer is not rooted in uncertainty about whether God might eventually come around. It is rooted in the certainty that He already has — that He is a Father who delights to give, who is not asleep, not inconvenienced, and not reluctant. This re-centers the entire posture of prayer. We are not beggars hoping against hope that a distant God notices us. We are covenant children running with confidence into the throne room of a Father who has already given us His Son and, supremely, His Spirit.

The Covenantal Frame of the Promise

The sweeping promise — "everyone who asks receives" — has tripped up many readers who take it as an unconditional divine guarantee for anything sincerely prayed. Jesse is careful to locate the promise within its literary and canonical context. It is spoken to disciples who have just been taught to pray "Your kingdom come... give us... forgive us... lead us not" — prayers shaped by God's revealed will and kingdom priorities. James 4 and John's Gospel reinforce the point: prayer that does not receive has asked wrongly or outside God's will. The Westminster Confession of Faith (Chapter 21) frames acceptable prayer as offered in the name of the Son, by the help of the Spirit, according to His will — a tripod of covenantal orientation that, far from weakening the promise, gives it its full and glorious force.

Memorable Quotes

We draw that persistence not out of our own willingness, not even because God might encourage us, but we should be drawn to it as a representation of His character — of in fact who He is.

Jesus is not commending 'wear God down with nagging' as a technique. He's having established that even flawed human reluctance eventually yields to a legitimate need pressed persistently — and he pivots to make the positive direct application: how much more freely and immediately will the Father, who is not reluctant, not asleep, not inconvenienced, give?

Even the seeking, even the knocking, even the opening that will be done for you and unto you and on your behalf is from God the Father himself.

Full Transcript

[00:01:03] Jesse Schwamb: Welcome to episode 504 of The Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse, and this is the podcast for the persistent prayers Hey, brothers and sisters. We have got something a little bit different for you on this episode. Tony will be back with me next week, and we will be continuing our journey through the parables.

[00:01:27] And I thought while we anxiously await for his return, that we would set up the next parable that we're gonna talk about so we can hit all the major points together. So we're gonna be hanging out in Luke chapter 11, and we're talking about the parable of persistent prayer, or as I think Tony described it, the parable of the midnight friend.

[00:01:47] You can choose whichever one you like. But before you do that, if in fact you miss Tony, here's a good way to fill that need, and that is you should go to the Reformed Brotherhood website. That's reformedbrotherhood.com. And you will [00:02:00] find all of the other podcast episodes living out there. They're all searchable by topic.

[00:02:05] Everything we've recorded is right there for you. These some 10 years of lovely conversations with my brother Tony are all available for you. And while you're there, you might be thinking, "How is it that all this is so freely given?" Well, as you've heard us say before, that's because so many lovely brothers and sisters come alongside with a little bit of financial support to make sure all of the hosting and editing and distribution fees are all covered so that this can all be made available to whoever, whoever is searching for it, whoever finds it, whoever wants to join in the conversation and follow closely along with our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

[00:02:41] So I encourage you to go check that out and also listen along. This will be a quick episode just to help us get our bearings on this really amazing teaching that Jesus gives us about the character of God that comes about in really a kind of unexpected story. And in fact, even the message itself, [00:03:00] the context, I think, is going to sound at first like one thing, but Jesus uses it to describe something entirely different.

[00:03:07] Even the literary device He's about to use for us invokes some kind of cognitive dissonance that actually draws us deeper into the character of God than I think if He had explained it more directly. I mean, this is what parables do, loved ones. So come hang out with me in Luke chapter 11 for just a couple minutes.

[00:03:24] Wherever you are, join me in this. I'm gonna read from the beginning part of that chapter all the way through the parable, though we will get nowhere near the end, because I told you, I'm saving that for Tony. We're gonna get there next week. So join me in Luke chapter 11, beginning in verse one.

[00:03:39] Luke 11 Reading and Structure

[00:03:39] Jesse Schwamb: "And it happened that while Jesus was praying in a certain place, after He had finished, one of His disciples said to Him, 'Lord, teach us to pray, just as John also taught his disciples.'

[00:03:51] And He said to them, 'When you pray, say: Father, hallowed be Your name. Your kingdom come. Give us each day our daily bread [00:04:00] and forgive us our sins, for we ourselves also forgive everyone who is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation.'" Then he said to them, "Which of you has a friend and will go to him at midnight and say to him, 'Friend, lend me three loaves, for a friend of mine has come to me from a journey, and I have nothing to set before him.'

[00:04:21] And from inside he answers and says, 'Do not bother me. The door has already been shut, and my children and I are in bed. I cannot rise up and give you anything.' I tell you, even though he will not arise and give him anything because he is his friend, yet because of his persistence, he will get up and give him as much as he needs.

[00:04:40] So I say to you, ask, and it will be given to you. Seek, and you will find. Knock, and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks, it will be opened. But what father among you, if his son asks for a fish, will give him a snake instead of [00:05:00] a fish?

[00:05:00] Or if his son asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him?" This amazing little pericope, you'll notice it follows upon the disciples' request, which is, "Lord, teach us to pray."

[00:05:24] And the giving of this model prayer is the whole instruction, the whole, like outcropping of this entire little parable. And I think what we should look at first, that I wanna really hit on to set us up, is that Luke has this... It seems to me like a structure that's very deliberate. There's a pattern. The Lord's Prayer, which leads to this parable of encouragement.

[00:05:45] Here's the friend at midnight. It leads then to a promise, ask, seek, knock, which then of course leads to this ground of confidence. Why? Because the Father's character, sealed in the gift of the Holy Spirit, has been given to His children. This whole thing [00:06:00] occurs within Luke's central, like quote-unquote, "travel narrative."

[00:06:04] It's where Jesus is forming the disciples' inner life. He's teaching them in these really final moments of His life. It's prayer, dependence, kingdom priorities, as He literally moves toward Jerusalem and to the cross. And so I think the biblical exegesis here takes this placement really seriously, because this is not like free-floating wisdom teaching, but it's real discipleship.

[00:06:28] It's real firm instruction given by the Messiah en route to accomplish the very redemption that makes the Spirit gift of verse 13 possible. All of this is wrapped up in this story. It is not just about what's being said, but I think literally where it's being said, the context in which it's being said, the very interactions that are taking place around the story itself.

[00:06:50] And I cannot help but believe that, of course, God in His foreordaining wisdom is placing this all together. It's as if the experience of the disciples, their time with [00:07:00] Jesus, them literally walking en route to the place where He'll be crucified, all this gets distilled down into a single point in history, and the instruction that is on Jesus' lips is this story about the midnight friend I think we've talked about this before, but there's some principles here that I always go back to, and I think they're especially relevant for looking at this particular parable.

[00:07:22] First, there's this understanding that this, there's an analogy of scripture. Like, this text should be read alongside its Matthean para- parallel, which we've talked about briefly, and the whole canon's teaching on prayer, on providence, on the Spirit. We can't look at this instance in complete isolation. We shouldn't.

[00:07:39] It-- That wouldn't be proper understanding of the whole passage here, including its redemptive historical reading, which I think is important. It's the second piece here. The passage is suited and situated within this unfolding covenant of grace. This Father language is not like generic theism, but it is like the covenantal Trinitarian Christ-mediated, like all the [00:08:00] rich fullness of what God has done in the redemptive arc of salvation.

[00:08:04] It's prayer offered in the name of the Son as we are sons or daughters in the Son. And so there's this light then to heavy inference. Like Jesus' argument, which I think we'll talk about with Tony, in verse eight is this kind of like rab- rabbinic like fortiori reasoning. It's, it's from like the lesser to the greater, or the, the lesser reluctant or flawed party that acts in one way, and how much more the greater than will the willing perfect party act.

[00:08:36] And so, so many commentators have really flagged this as like the interpretive key to the unit. This is the thing that draws us in. It's actually this juxtaposition, this cognitive dissonance, this seeing one thing and recognizing that God is so much better than that one thing and so much far beyond it, that really draws us into understanding something about His character that would not be made manifest to us without that kind of comparison or [00:09:00] that setup.

[00:09:01] And then, of course, we're Reformed, so we have to talk about the element of sola Scriptura here, that we really, we have to read this passage not as teaching either that God is manipulable by human persistence. I mean, that would com- compromise entirely the, the principles of divine aseity and His immutability.

[00:09:20] Or B, that there's some kind of like bare Arminian conditionality here, as though prayer creates possibilities God otherwise lacks. Really, the Bible holds, biblical theology holds that prayer is to be a means that God has sovereignly ordained to accomplish His decreed ends. It's never a lever upon which, you know, otherwise an undecided God acts because we pull.

[00:09:46] It's not that at all. So let's talk about just a couple of verses that I think will get us in the vibe here, in the jam, in the middle of this whole parable, and this will set us up for a conversation that we're gonna have next week, which is the culmination, the giving of the [00:10:00] Holy Spirit. That's really the end.

[00:10:01] So it's interesting that we start with this whole idea of persistence, of a friend coming with, and it's gonna end with God giving to His children this incredible, unparalleled gift of the Holy Spirit. So let's start in verse five. We get this whole setup. "Which of you has a friend and will go to him at midnight?"

[00:10:20] So of course, like, you-- we hear this, hear this in English, it's even more profound in the Greek. The construction here is like this rhetorical question. It's expecting, of course, the hearer, which is you and I, to place ourselves imaginatively in the position of the petitioner. And the scenario is, of course, like pregnant with cultural meaning.

[00:10:38] Like, it's just loaded down because in Middle Eastern cultures, of course, like hospita- hospitality was a matter of covenantal honor. I say it that way because I think that's what's at play for us in the text. We're gonna get these, like, themes, this, like, little bit of shading or, like, this, this little taste on the back end of your tongue of the covenant, and it's represented [00:11:00] here even in, like, the situation here.

[00:11:01] Because failing to feed an arrived guest was a social and religious disgrace, not merely to the host, but, like, to their entire community, to, like, their entire village And the petitioner has no bread, and he's looking for three loaves because that's what he needs to help feed these guests that have arrived at his house.

[00:11:19] And so he comes to a friend. Notice it's not a stranger, so the relationship itself is somewhat covenantal. It's emphasized three times in the verses five through eight. And so we're establishing the premise upon which the argument from the lesser, this friendship, which is reluctantly acted upon, to the greater, which is fatherhood, gladly acted upon, will be built up so that it reaches the peak in verse thirteen I think we need to notice here that this is not some kind of isolated moral vignette, but it's like the first rung of a ladder that's being built for us here.

[00:11:55] And the first rung on this, I think, is that Christ accommodates himself [00:12:00] to human experience, which is like a mind-boggling statement. I mean, we could spend all of eternity just contemplating what that means. It's certainly a la Philippians 2, but here in, especially we're seeing that there's the use of this imperfect analogy precisely because it's, its imperfection.

[00:12:19] Again, a friend who is reluctant will be highlighted against in contrast to the perfection of the true referent, which is God the Father, a father who is not reluctant. And so this doctrine of accommodation is a standard, uh, that you see a lot in Reformed exeg- as a exegetical principle because it's Scripture speaks of God in creaturely terms, not because God is like the creature, but so that the creature may grasp, however inaccurately, the character of God.

[00:12:50] That's what's really lovely about this parable. That's what I think kind of sits underneath the, the surface here. And so many of us wanna run to the action of the petitioner [00:13:00] here and try to equate or invoke something about that persistence as if God is saying to us like, "Please don't give up. Please keep on praying.

[00:13:07] Please bend my ear." And while there is something important about that, we draw that persistence not out of our own willingness, not even because God might encourage us, but we should be drawn to it as a representation of his character, of in fact who he is. And so the friend who is reluctant responds very forthrightly with a, "Don't bother me."

[00:13:28] And I find when I read this, I kind of chuckle a little bit because, loved ones, is that refusal not completely realistic? Like, it's not caricatured malice. In, in like a one-room peasant house, the door being barred and the family being bedded down on a single sleeping mat meant that practically speaking, rising would wake the entire household.

[00:13:49] I mean, the friend's refusal is totally understandable, but still a refusal of a friend to a friend for a legitimate n-need. And so this is the negative pole of the entire analogy. [00:14:00] I also find this, like, totally relatable. Like, even in my own life when I'm serving my own needs and purposes, if I am on like the-- If I've descended, let's say, to like the first floor of my house, and I remember that after getting ready for the day, I've totally forgotten something on the second floor, I'm annoyed with myself.

[00:14:17] Sometimes I literally have that thought of like, "How badly do I need that thing? I just don't want to go back upstairs again." And so I think this is totally identifiable I mean, how often have we been in a situation where we- we've just sat down and the phone rings, or we've just finished our day and something else pops up that we have to do, or we just shut down our computer and we've-- as we do that, we remember the one thing that we needed to do, and so we have to go back in.

[00:14:40] Or you leave your office and realize that you've forgotten your car keys, now you have to walk all the way back in. I mean, I-- this makes total sense to me that in this, the context of this story, even a loving friend would be like, "Are you kidding me? Uh, we're all in bed. Please, can you just figure out another way to do this?"

[00:14:59] I know [00:15:00] there's been a lot of commentators, and I think like a lot of popular preaching, that in my estimation here have mistakenly identified the sleeping friend with God, teaching that persistent prayer, like, wears God down. And that, I think, is a category error that the Reformed tradition and biblical theology generally has consistently rejected.

[00:15:21] You know, that's why we read in James 1:17 that every good gift comes from the Father with whom there is no variation or shadow due to change. The immutable God cannot be the referent or the reluctant changeable human host here, not according to James. The friend in the parable functions as the lesser term, and again, this argument moving from the lesser to the greater, not as a type of God.

[00:15:45] I think that's important for us to keep in mind because there is, again, a temptation for us to want to say, "Well, really the person in the story who is represented by God is this other friend, and he just needs to be awoken," so to speak. And even if we don't feel that strongly, th- that's pressing us a little bit too [00:16:00] far, we, we know theologically that that's not accurate.

[00:16:02] We still are prone to believe, "I need to pray harder." The point of this is to pick yourself up, pull up your praying socks, and just pray more and pray more consistently and pray harder. Don't stop. Now, there is, again, something about calling on God that is like the special benefit and privilege of the Christian to run confidently into the throne room of God as we read in Hebrews.

[00:16:25] And yet at the same time here, we don't want to get this twisted. We have to set this up right so that by the time we get to, again, the pinnacle of this parable in th-- in Jesus giving the crown teaching of the giving of the Holy Spirit, that we understand it's because God is a good Father who delights to give, who is not reluctant at all.

[00:16:46] And that if you ask, if you ask for His Holy, Holy, Holy Spirit, that He will in fact give His Holy Spirit to you. So verse eight: "I tell you, though, he will not get up and give him anything because he is his [00:17:00] friend. Yet because of his imprudence, he will rise and give him whatever he needs." Now, the crux of this question is the referent here.

[00:17:11] So traditionally rendered, you know, inopportune or inopportunity or persistence. The word literally denotes like shamelessness or refusal to be governed by some kind of social propriety. And I think either way here, the theological payload in verses nine through thirteen is all about the main point of this passage being but a foil.

[00:17:31] You know, Jesus is not commending wear God down with nagging as a technique. He's, he's having established that even flawed human reluctance eventually yields to a legitimate need pressed persistently. And so he pivots in this to make the positive direct application, how much more freely and immediately will the Father, who is not reluctant, not asleep, not inconvenienced, give?

[00:17:57] And so this verse does [00:18:00] teach persevering in prayer, but it grounds that perseverance not in doubt about God's willingness, but in confidence about it. This to me is very similar to how we would understand evangelism or missional or missionary type works. There is a type of Christianity that is very thin, that is maybe like a, a mile wide and an inch deep, that essentially considers that when we pray for God to work among peoples, in our families, in our communities, across the land, and across the world, that we do so almost with fingers crossed, hoping against hope that God will show up and make a way.

[00:18:38] And yet what the scripture says is it emboldens us knowing that God has already done these things, that we might pray ourselves, as it were, into them in faithfulness to what God has already in-- is accomplishing through his great work. And in this way, we pray with a great empowerment. We pray with persevering prayers because we know that God will make it so because he's a God who gives promises, [00:19:00] and he always fulfills those promises.

[00:19:03] And that's why we get three of them, which are beautiful in this passage.

[00:19:07] Ask Seek Knock Explained

[00:19:07] Jesse Schwamb: Ask, seek, knock. Ask and it will be given to you. Seek and you will find. Knock and it will be opened to you, for everyone who asks, receives. Loved ones, are there more beautiful words than these from God the Father? This is how much he loves us that he says, "Test me on these promises.

[00:19:28] In persevering prayer, come before me, ask, seek, and knock." These three present tense imperatives in the Greek, Greek. In other words, keep asking, keep seeking, keep knocking. The present tense is conveying this continuous action. They're matched by the three future passives here, and the passives are almost certainly divine passives.

[00:19:51] In other words, like it's a Jer- Jewish circumlocution, avoiding the direct naming of God as subject out of reverence, which of course, is common in Jesus' [00:20:00] teaching. But what's being unstated here is the subject acting within them. It will be given. It will be opened. Who is doing all these things? God himself.

[00:20:10] And so behind these beautiful words, this promise to you and to me, is God in filling them all, so that again, God does all the words. It's as if like he's saying to us, "Seek, knock, and open." And yet even the seeking, even the knocking, even the opening that will be done for you and unto you and on your behalf is from God, the Father himself.

[00:20:32] And the escalation from asking to seeking to knocking, in my view, it intensifies this effort and this urgency. Like a beggar asks, one who has lost something seeks, one who shuts, is shut out knocks on the door. And it's, I think, denoting not necessarily like three distinct kinds of prayer, though there are certainly lots of people who have talked about that.

[00:20:56] The Patristics in particular, uh, Augustine was very fond [00:21:00] of kind of delineating between these as different types of prayer. I think there, there may be some usefulness in that. But I think the dominant grammatical point is this cumulative intensity. It's reinforced in verse 10 by this chiastic restatement in universal terms.

[00:21:14] Everyone who asks, the one who seeks, to the one who knocks, all of these things will be given. This is the beautiful setup that's before us. It's an incredible word from God for us, practical for daily living, to give strength for today and a hope for tomorrow, that our God is one who gives us this promise.

[00:21:34] And then he says, in perseverance, with the power that the Holy Spirit enables all of us, seek, ask, seek, knock. What lovely verbs for us to participate in by the power of the Holy Spirit Everyone who asks receives. I, I don't think that can be read as an unconditional blank check. And this is, I think, what trips many people up.

[00:21:57] And, and certainly you've had conversations, [00:22:00] I'm sure, with others who've said, "Well, this sounds like some kind of just open-ended promise. There's no closed end to this. And so if I pray for something that I want, maybe if I pray for the thing that I feel like I desperately need, if I put all of my effort into it and pray with all the emotion, and I have, and every concentrated effort of my mental being, and God does not give that to me, it, this proves this passage to be wrong or to be ineffective."

[00:22:27] And I think this would contradict directly, again, what James tells us in chapter 4, "You ask and do not receive because you ask wrongly." Or John in his gospel, "If we ask anything according to His will." And so I think proper hermeneutics here resolves this not by weakening the promise, but by locating it properly within, again, its covenantal frame.

[00:22:53] This promise is spoken to disciples who have just been taught to pray, "Your kingdom come, give [00:23:00]us, forgive us, lead us not." That is, it's a prayer conformed to God's revealed, revealed will and kingdom priorities. I think the Westminster Confession of Faith is particularly strong on this in chapter 21. It qualifies acceptable prayer as being offered in the name of the Son, by the help of the Spirit, according to His will.

[00:23:22] What again, like lovely things to help shape us even as we go into times of daily worship, that we might seek to pray to God in the name of the Son, by the help of the Spirit, according to His will. I find in my own prayer life, in my own journey of speaking with God, and of trying to listen to Him as well, that I am much better aligned, that start in the better places, that there is more compatibility, so to speak, when I consider, even before I pray literally, that I might do that in the name of the Son, by the help of the Spirit, according to His will.

[00:23:56] By the way, I love that in Ruth- Luther's writing on prayer, [00:24:00] he speaks so highly of what it means to pray in the name of the Son. That that isn't something that we just, of course, put as a suffix onto our prayers to signal that they are concluded. For some reason, when I was younger, I remember thinking that when you said at the end of the prayer, "In Jesus' name," it was like you were talking to somebody on the phone, and that's how you hung up.

[00:24:20] Because if you forgot to say that, then God might think you were, like, as you went about your life and you were talking to other people, that you were also talking to Him, and that would be confusing. And so of course, like I, since grown out of that and realized that this is not something just out of custom.

[00:24:33] It's not even saying like, "Amen, agree with me." This is a way about an, an explicit, standing in the explicit covenantal promise of God that is bound in the work of, the finished work of His Son, Jesus Christ. And that when we invoke His name, we shouldn't do so even flippantly as we end a prayer. But knowing that that's not just like the grand kind of crescendo of everything that we're saying, but we are sealing it as it were, so that we might again pray in the name of the Son, [00:25:00] by the help of the Holy Spirit, according to His will.

[00:25:03] And that promise of verse 10 is absolute within that frame. It's not an absolute, like, simplifier. You know, this is not special pleading, but simply reading the verse in its literary context. It's a unit that begins with the Lord's Prayer and ends with the gift of the Spirit. And its canonical context is according with the rest of the New Testament in this idea that this is what prayer really is.

[00:25:29] It is praying in such a way that we are invoking God, not so that He would come and condescend to our needs or meet us where we're at. He's already done this very thing, which is why He's a good Father who gives us gifts. Instead, it is that we might l- meet the Lord in His purposes, according to His power, with His perspective.

[00:25:49] And so this is the, the ladder that's being built for us. It starts with this idea of saying, you know, there's this universality qualifier, the Reformed [00:26:00] doctrinal caution, as it were, that not-- "You ask and do not receive because you ask wrongly." That itself is a challenge that we should all take very, very seriously.

[00:26:09] So I'm gonna stop us there, because what I'm really looking forward to speaking to Tony with next week is basically the, the rest of it, really coming into the second rung of this ladder, this human fathers and their children, which sets up a now... We're really transitioning into the setup on this reluctant friend, the lesser, to this great, loving, not reluctant at all, but lovishly la- Man, I just got two words at the same time in one mouth.

[00:26:37] This loving Father who lavishes this love upon us, and proof in the pudding in that is the promises which He gives us. And so I wanna save that for next time. So now you've been warned. You yourself can go back and take a look at Luke chapter 11. You can join us there for the culmination and the conclusion of [00:27:00] this little parable.

[00:27:01] And again, I encourage you, go check out reformedbrotherhood.com. Go find us on Telegram, which is just a messaging app, and we have a small little corner of the internet where there's a community of listeners who hang out, support one another, are very kind and loving toward one another, and you can be a part of that group too just by going to t.me/reformedbrotherhood.

[00:27:21] Slap that bad boy into your browser of choice, t.me/reformedbrotherhood. And until next time, honor everyone and love the brotherhood. [00:28:00]

In episode 503 of The Reformed Brotherhood, Tony Arsenal and Jesse Schwamb conclude their deep dive into Luke 10:25–37 — the Parable of the Good Samaritan. Far from a simple morality tale about helping strangers, this episode unpacks the parable's confrontational legal context, its reversal of expectation, and its profound Christological undertones. Tony and Jesse examine why the lawyer's question about self-justification was always destined to be unanswerable on his own terms, how the priest and Levite serve as a damning mirror for religious professionals, and why the Samaritan's lavish, costly mercy points beyond mere ethics to the gospel itself. The episode also explores the Mary and Martha account that immediately follows, arguing it cannot be read in isolation. Closing with Matthew Henry, the hosts land the discussion squarely on gratitude for Christ, the supreme Good Neighbor.

Key Takeaways

• The parable is fundamentally about self-justification, not mercy ministry. The lawyer's question — "Who is my neighbor?" — is a legal maneuver, and Jesus' answer exposes the impossibility of fulfilling the law through self-effort rather than merely defining the scope of neighborly obligation.
• Jesus reverses the expected identification of "the neighbor." The listener naturally assumes the beaten man is the neighbor to be loved, but the punchline identifies the Samaritan — the one who showed mercy — as the neighbor, redirecting the question from who must I love to what does love actually look like.
• The Samaritan's mercy is deliberately, impossibly lavish. His actions — binding wounds, providing transport, paying an open-ended debt for a stranger and likely an enemy — exceed anything a reasonable person would do, pointing to a mercy that transcends mere human virtue.
• The priest and Levite indict religious professionalism. Their failure is not incidental; it demonstrates that meticulous law observance and ceremonial religiosity can actually obstruct the very love the law commands, hollowing out its spirit while preserving its form.
• The parable functions under all three uses of the law. For the unregenerate, it terrifies and condemns. For the regenerate, it is a third-use call to Spirit-empowered, grateful obedience. As civil law, it commends a society of compassion over indifference.
• Christ is the typological Good Neighbor. The Samaritan's actions — pouring oil and wine, bearing the cost, promising to return and settle all debts — carry genuine Christological resonance without requiring a full allegorical reading of every detail.
• The immediately following Mary and Martha account is thematically inseparable. Luke's editorial placement of that narrative directly after the parable creates a deliberate counterpoint: the one thing necessary is not anxious service but sitting at the feet of Jesus.

Key Concepts The Lawyer's Question Was Never Going to Work

The lawyer who approaches Jesus in Luke 10 is not a neutral inquirer — he is, as Luke tells us, seeking to justify himself. Tony and Jesse explore what this means with precision: the desire to be justified is not inherently wrong, but the mechanism the lawyer employs — the law — is catastrophically insufficient for the task. When Jesus responds with the parable, he does not sidestep the legal framework; he weaponizes it. The Samaritan's mercy is so extravagant, so far beyond ordinary moral expectation, that it functions not as an achievable standard but as a devastating exposure of how far short every human attempt at law-keeping falls. The command "go and do likewise" is not an encouraging send-off — it is, for the self-justifying lawyer, a door slamming shut.

The Samaritan's Mercy Is Intentionally Beyond Reach

One of the most important contributions this episode makes is resisting the domestication of the Samaritan's actions into a feel-good story about helping those in need. Tony reframes the scenario in contemporary terms: finding a gravely injured stranger from a hostile ethnic group, providing emergency first aid, transporting them to care, and writing a blank check for all future medical expenses — with no personal obligation to do so. No reasonable person would do this, and that is exactly the point. The mercy described is not aspirationally difficult; it is humanly inconceivable at scale. This is what Christ-like love looks like, and it is precisely what the law demands. The gap between the demand and human capacity is the gospel's entry point.

The Mary and Martha Account Cannot Be Separated from the Parable

Tony raises a hermeneutical observation that deserves more attention than it typically receives: Luke chose to place the Mary and Martha account immediately after the Good Samaritan parable, and that editorial decision is not accidental. Martha — busy with hospitality and service — looks, on the surface, like the practical application of everything the Samaritan modeled. Yet she is gently rebuked, and Mary, who sits at Jesus' feet, is commended for choosing "the one thing necessary." This creates a stunning theological counterweight: the parable exposes the impossibility of self-justifying law-keeping, and the very next story shows that even well-intentioned merciful activity, when it crowds out receiving from Christ, misses the point. The one thing necessary is always Christ himself.

Memorable Quotes

If you think you're the good Samaritan, if you think you're the one that's gonna come and rescue people — you're much more likely to see this as a sort of law beat-down. Where those of us who are regenerated and in Christ, this is third-use law. This is us seeing what it means to be holy, and going and doing likewise, trying in our power, recognizing that we can't, and trusting the Lord to accept our feeble attempts. - Tony Arsenal

This text is not really to be preached or applied as some kind of bare moral exhortation. It's not 'try harder to be like the Samaritan.' That's totally disconnected from the gospel. It should be preached in a manner that exposes the impossibility of self-justification... and then of course it does point us to Christ as the one whose perfect, costly, self-giving mercy alone satisfies the law's demand on our behalf. - Jesse Schwamb

If this parable and our conversation about it does nothing except stirring you to gratitude for the fact that our supreme good neighbor threw us on his donkey and carried us to the public house, and bound up our wounds, and paid for our debt — if it does nothing but drive you to gratitude and thankfulness and wonder, then we've succeeded in our task and we've left you with the Gospel. - Tony Arsenal

Full Transcript

Jesse Schwamb: Welcome to episode 503 of the Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse.

Tony Arsenal: And I'm Tony, and this is the podcast with ears to hear. Hey, brother.

Jesse Schwamb: Hey, brother. Well, at this point, there's one thing that we know for certain, and that is if you're gonna come at the law giver, the one who's composed and written the law, with a legal question to try to entrap the one who has given you the law, you better not miss.

And it turns out, in Luke 10 where we've been hanging out, the lawyer who poses Jesus with the question of, "Who is my neighbor?" is a big swing and a miss. Yeah. And we're finally gonna get to all the characters that are part of this amazing parable in this conversation. But of course, there's something we gotta do first.

Affirmations And Denials

Jesse Schwamb: It, it's everybody's, what I'm led to believe everybody's favorite segment of this entire show. I mean, the crowds out there say, "Why even have a full podcast? Just do affirmations and denials for the entire time." And we, we hear you, because we're borrowing from that beautiful confessional format of the dead reformers to settle all the much not confessional [00:02:00] disputes.

So in the great tradition of the Westminster Divines, who of course cannot just simply say, "We like grace," without also clarifying 17 things that grace is not- ... we're now again going to bring you our own binding, authoritative, and entirely unneeded but very official statement of affirmations and denials.

It's affirming the things we love and denying things we don't. So Tony, as is our own custom, are you affirming with something or are you denying against something on this episode?

Tony Arsenal: Um, I'm denying something. Uh, it's a sort of a weird situation that has cropped up, uh, online. And I, I try not to use this segment too often to sort of wade into, um, I don't know, the, like, latest social controversy in the Reformed world.

But every once in a while I come across something that I feel like you just need to sort of talk about. And, um, many of our listeners are probably already [00:03:00] aware of the situation that I'm gonna talk about, and it's very well-publicized and, and very public. Um, but I'm denying the sort of weirdness that has happened with the G3 Conference.

Um, I'm not sure how familiar with G3 you are, Jesse, but for the, the listener who may not be, G3 is a conference, um, primarily run by Baptists, and is, in my understanding, is primarily attended by sort of Reformed-ish Baptists. And I don't, I don't say Reformed-ish to be pejorative necessarily. Um, but it, it's sort of like predominantly, um Non-confessional but not anti-confessional Calvinistic Baptists, sort of think more like covenant framework MacArthur-style Baptists maybe is, is a way to look at it.

Um, and a few years ago, one of their main figures, I don't remember exactly what position he held, but it was a relatively high position in, in [00:04:00] the conference. Uh, his name was Josh Boyce. He, uh, w- was caught/confessed to maintaining, like, multiple anonymous or pseudonymous, uh, Twitter accounts and publishing several s- like pseudonym-based Substacks, um, that he used to basically attack the character of not only anyone online that seemed to cross him, but, like, people that he shared an office with.

Like, anyone and everyone was targeted by him. And at the time it was a big hullabaloo. He, uh, he resigned. As far as I can tell, he's faded into obscurity and has not sought to come back, although that's always, you know, yet to be seen. But at the time there was very firm statements by the r- remaining sort of board members, leadership of G3, at how inappropriate this was, and how acting anonymously requi- you know, sort of evacuates accountability and, [00:05:00]and all these different things.

And it's come out recently, um, just over the last week, that four of the members of the G3 board, um, who are all elders at the same church, had assembled a sort of anonymous dossier of accusations against, um, a- another pastor, uh, that he had been sort of serially plagiarizing sermons. Um, and when nothing really happened when they sent their anonymous dossier, they started distributing this to other, other, like, platforms and other church and m- parachurch ministries, kind of encouraging people to do their own investigation.

Um, one such, uh, outlet was ... It's a, it's a, I don't know, sort of a news discernment blogger kind of a thing, um, has done some pretty decent reporting work I think in, in the recent past, although it has sort of a s- storied beginning, um, called Protestia They did just [00:06:00] that. They did an investigation, and in the course of their investigation, they identified who these anonymous, uh, the anonymous reporters were, and it was the same, the very same people who a few years ago, uh, pontificated, uh, at, at length about the importance of accountability and how anonymity has, uh, taken that away.

Uh, people that accepted Josh Boyce's resi- resignation for acting anonymously have now done the same thing. They have since, uh, resigned from their church eldership, um, which is gonna be awkward because they haven't resigned from the board of G3, which, uh, the offices of G3 are in the same building as the church that they've now resigned at.

Uh, and I guess where, where my denial comes in and the reason that I feel like it, it might be worthwhile for us just to Even reflect on it a little bit is there is an element in the Reformed world that seeks a platform and seeks an audience and seeks notoriety, and I, I was musing [00:07:00] today a little bit on my own Twitter that th- there was a time in my life where that was very much what I wanted.

I wanted to be a, a very public, well-known theological voice, and, um, a- and I just have sort of like drifted away from that. And the, the reason I think it's worth mentioning on our show is that we do have an audience. We have a, a modest audience. It's not huge. It's not nothing. Um, but th- there is a real temptation to seek fame and notoriety that is absolutely destructive and really antithetical to, uh, to Christian principles of what it means to serve those around you, to serve with humility, to r- you know, redound any glory that might come to you for your actions to, to the fact that it is Christ who empowers all things and brings all good blessings.

So I don't know that I have much more commentary on it. It's just a weird... It's a very weird situation, but it, it seems like it very much has come from a [00:08:00] place of feeling as though minor slights by people you associate with warrant sort of a, a nuclear option like this because, uh... and I don't wanna read too much into motives, but, but it seems like because your reputation and your notoriety is so great that any offense to it needs to be responded to in kind, and that's just not, that's just not the Christian way.

So again, I don't know that I have any more commentary or thoughts on it. It just was a weird situation that I'm, I'm like, "Why do we gotta do this to each other, folks?" Like, why are we, why are we biting at each other all the time? Why are we doing these things except from a place of sinful pride? So I'm denying that.

I'm denying sinful pride. I'm denying my own tendencies to seek glory in a spotlight. Um, I'm very thankful that God did not, uh, see fit to grant me that desire 'cause it probably would've been even more destructive for me than it has been for these guys. So I'm very happy to live in obscurity, [00:09:00] to serve the local church, to share our voices in this very modest, tiny platform that we have, and perhaps the Lord will see fit to change that one direction or the other, and I'll, I'll be happy to serve at His, uh, at His will.

But I'm glad for now that, uh, the, the temptation of international fame has not been something that I even have the opportunity to lay hold of. Um, I'm very thankful for that, that, uh, grace from the Lord.

Jesse Schwamb: I had that light, sarcastic, some might say somewhat humorous opening and affirmations and denials, and you, you just brought the heaviness, which is okay.

Sometimes that's, sometimes that's what happens.

Lament Devotional Spotlight

Jesse Schwamb: And- Yeah ... I- fortunately, I have an affirmation, but it's, uh, of, like, a weird, heavy kind now that I think about it. So, um, I'm trying to, I'm trying to get everybody on the cusp of good books that I think are coming out. And so here's another one where it's not even gonna be released until September 30th, and so you have plenty of time to go out and find this thing.

So P&R Publishing, many may be [00:10:00] familiar, does this whole series, topical series, which are called 31-Day Devotionals for Life, and there's a new one being released by Christine Chappell. It's called Lament: Crying Out in Faith. So I'm affirming with this piece because I've had the joy of been working through some of this stuff, and I think this is some of the best treatment I've ever read, been able to practice, been coached into for lamenting.

We've talked before at length about how Christians, especially in the West, often because we just have great lives, we aren't familiar with lament. We don't practice it well. We hardly sing any songs of lament. We're unfamiliar with it. It's like a foreign land to us. And then sometimes when we're, we get convicted we should lament, we kind of interpret that as, "Well, yeah, I, I know I can blow up at God.

I can get angry with him and, and that's okay." David does it too, and it's okay to express all your feelings with God. What I like about this work is it cultivates more of a prayer language. It gives voice to pain and grief so that there can be a real healing. It's not just a complaining. It's not just [00:11:00] throwing your voice out into the ether to, you know, wildly pontificate or self-aggrandize about how hurt or upset you are.

It enables us to cry out to God in such a way that it promotes emotional authenticity, but at the same time maintains reverence. I think that is, uh, at least what I need. The beauty of this book is somebody you know or yourself need to lament something. Actually, I think we all have something to lament, even as it's getting older or things changing in our lives.

So I highly, highly, highly affirm with this book. It's Lament: Crying Out in Faith. P&R does a lot of great publishing in this way. It's just the year of the devotionals, Tony. I don't know why. Yeah. I mean, I even hate to use devotional. It's the year of good resources for daily praise and worship- Yeah ... and lament should be part of our praise and worship.

Yeah. So, but doing it in the right way is something I'm learning. I had mixed understanding of it. So this will clarify, encourage, edify in all the ways that I think we need.

Tony Arsenal: That sounds great. I, I do agree with you. I think, um- [00:12:00] Although I think it may be a little bit less so in, in the sort of confessional Reformed tradition just because the Psalms in general play such a prominent role in Reformed worship.

Um, I do agree with you that broadly, like, we, we in the Western evangelical w- world don't, we don't know how to do laments. Um, I'm not one of those people that would say im- imprecatory prayers are inappropriate. I know there are some even within the Reformed world that would say im- imprecatory prayers are not appropriate for God's people in, in the new covenant.

Um, I don't know that I agree with that, but, but that's another example of, like, that's in the prayer and hymnbook of our people- Right ... and we don't really know how to do it. Yes. So, and, and imprecation and lament are very closely related to each other. They're, they're very similar, um, ways of thinking and they're, they're both kind of modes of prayer that, uh, we don't, we don't really engage in.

And so when we do have- when the occasion arises, we're, like, out of practice. So that's a great, uh, a great [00:13:00]affirmation and yeah, a little, a little weirdly heavy. Maybe this is gonna be a, a weirdly heavy episode. Who knows?

Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, it very well could be.

Good Samaritan Deep Dive

Jesse Schwamb: I mean, listen, it was no doubt heavy for the lawyer who stood up- True

who was

Tony Arsenal: like- Nicely done ...

Jesse Schwamb: I'd like to justify myself, so Jesus, let me ask you, we took our question, "Who is my neighbor?" I do all these things. I'm down with the law. Yeah. I know all this stuff. And I think we had some really great conversation last time. I'm biased, but I think we had some really fantastic unpacking of the first part of this, and if you haven't heard that yet, you should go back and listen to episode 502.

But in this episode, we're really getting into all of these wonderful and somewhat colorful characters. So I'm gonna pick us back up in Luke chapter 10, starting in verse 25. So I'm going back a little bit just to set that proper context for this amazing parable that Jesus tells us. So he says, "And behold, a scholar of the law stood up and was putting him," that is Jesus, "to the test, saying, 'Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?'

And he said to him, 'What is written in the law? How do you [00:14:00] read it?' And he answered and said, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself.' And he said to him, 'You have answered correctly. Do this and you will live.'

But wishing to justify himself, he said to Jesus, 'And who is my neighbor?' And Jesus replied and said, 'A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho and fell among robbers, and they stripped him and beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. And a priest happened to be going down on that road, and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.

Likewise, a Levite also, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. But a Samaritan, who was on a journey, came upon him, and when he saw him, he felt compassion.'" And he came to him and bandaged up his wounds, pouring oil and wine on them, and he put them on his own animal and brought him to an inn and took care of him.

And on the [00:15:00] next day, he took out two denarii and gave them to the innkeeper and said, "Take care of him, and whatever more you spend, when I return, I will repay you." Which of these three do you think proved to be a neighbor to the man who fell into the robbers' hands? And he said, "The one who showed mercy toward him."

Then Jesus said to him, "Go and do the same."

Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah, this is one of those parables we, we mentioned, uh, I guess we've invented a new classification of parables called the Big Daddy parables. That's right. Um, uh, this is one of those parables that is so ubiquitous and well-known, uh, that word there, choice there was a little hat tip to my Lutheran friends.

Um, so ubiquitous and well-known that I think we actually can, can rush into a common understanding and not, not be right at all about it. And I think the, the way this, uh, uh, the way I've seen this commonly done in, in circles I've run in in the past is this [00:16:00] becomes a parable about mercy ministry. Um, and, and the primary point is about how we serve our neighbors.

And I think there certainly is, um, there certainly is an element of that that we can glean from this, that Christ is making a commentary on the fact that, um, the, the, the right way to not only serve your neighbor but to even identify your neighbor, uh, and it's funny because I think this is, this is where I think people go wrong.

The, the Samar- or the, um, the, the lawyer is asking, "Who is my neighbor?" Right. And I think we commonly read this, and we read it to say, well, the Samaritan, uh, or the, the guy who got beat up is the neighbor. Right. And so we have to serve our neighbor like the Samaritan did. But the, the, the punchline, whatever, of the story is that the Samaritan is the g- is the neighbor, right?

We, we call this the Parable of the Good Samaritan, but we might wanna call it the [00:17:00] Parable of the Good Neighbor. And so it says more about what it means to be a good neighbor than it does to, um, to say about who, who our neighbor necessarily is, right? The, the s- uh, the lawyer was asking, "Who's my neighbor?"

And the answer was the one who shows mercy. And there's kind of a weird, there's kind of a weird paradox there, and this is something Jesus commonly does, where, like, He doesn't really answer the question. Um, the, the lawyer is like, "Well, who is it that I have to love," right? "The, I have to love my neighbor as myself, and who is it that I have to love?"

And Jesus' answer basically is like, "Well, the good neighbor is the one who showed mercy." Well, that doesn't answer- Right ... His question. So I think we have to be careful when we, uh, we work through this not to just sort of default and jump to what might be called, like, the lowest common denominator interpretation, right?

These are things that, yes, um, there is something to say about, uh, mercy ministry and how important it is to serve the, [00:18:00] serve those around us who are in need, right? That's, that's the command that comes out of this or the outcome that comes out of this is Christ is commanding this, um, this lawyer to go and be merciful to others.

Um- But if we, if we move too quickly to that, we miss a lot of what this has to say about the nature of justification- Right ... the nature of Christ as, as the capital T good neighbor, right? The, the good neighbor who, who takes care of our sin and pays the debt for us to be restored, right? I don't, like I said last week, I don't think that that is too on the nose.

Um, I think we miss the fact that the question, uh, the question is coming from a place, and we talked about this a little bit last week, but and maybe we'll get into it a little more. The question is coming from a place, um, whether you view this negatively, like I think most do, and there's warrant for that, or whether you view it a, a little bit more neutrally or maybe even positively, which is where I land, the desire to justify or to be [00:19:00] justified is not a bad desire.

And the, the text doesn't seem to offer a lot of commentary on the fact that the, the, um, lawyer is desiring to justify himself, other than the implied commentary o- of what the parable says about salvation in that someone else needs to save you, so you can't do it yourself in the first place. So I'm excited to get through this.

Um, I, I think we're probably gonna be here, we're gonna camp out here for at least another week after this, 'cause there's just so much to this parable. Who knows? Maybe we'll fly through it and it'll be a quick conversation, but I, I don't... That's not really our jam. Um- That's not really what we do But yeah, it, it's, it's a big daddy parable.

There's a lot here to unpack.

Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. You're right about that. Interestingly, as always, Jesus flips the law, but here the law flipping, like, ends up smacking you in the face because it does start with this inquiry about just identify for me who my neighbors are. If you give me these discrete instructions like the law has given me to do all these things, which by the way, I mean, even that when we have this lawyer saying, [00:20:00] "I've done all these things.

I've identified just for instance that the law includes loving the Lord God with everything, every part of who I am." He says like, "Yeah, I've done all these things." This is, I've already accomplished that. So now let me get, become self-justified in confirming I've done all these things. If you just tell me who the neighbors are, I'll be able to say to you, "Yep, I've already done that."

Instead, what happens is Christ says, "Here's what neighborly love looks like. And what it's gonna look like is so dramatic and so shocking that you ought to take pity and have concern and show compassion for those not just who are unlike you, but are, like, abhorrent, those who you would even never identify with in the parable of the story I'm about to tell you."

So I think there's all of that, like you said, to move away from just kind of categorizing this as a nice homily about how we ought to behave. However, there might be, like, some kind of moralistic theme in this that directs us toward actions of love and generosity, which by the way, could just be common grace.

Those exist outside of strict belief and adherence to the gospel, and certainly can be far afield from actually loving Christ. [00:21:00] The other thing that I think sometimes happens with this, and I'm gonna be unpopular on this one, I'm afraid, but is that I think there is often a lot of allegorical excess. And certainly there are people more intelligent than I who really embrace that.

So I'm looking at you, Patristic Fathers. Like, you know, if you wanna read some interesting stuff, everybody can go look up Origen or Augustine on this. Yeah. And they allegorize this parable in New England what we would call wicked fine detail. I mean, down, down to everything. So the oil and the- Yeah ... wine, the soil, each of the persons here representing something that in itself, like, everything.

And I think that that is okay. What I struggle with on that is, and this is where I'm unpopular, I think, is that- There are a lot of other exegetes, I don't think I'm alone, that would look at this and say, "Yes, there is something about this that draws us into, like, just general typological resonance. I'm not gonna reject that."

There are these, like, broader canonical themes of, like, helpless [00:22:00] humanity, like you said, and undeserved mercy. Those all legitimately, I think, echo the gospel truths. But I'm kind of resisting, or I'm prone to resist, treating every narrative detail in this as some kind of, like, independent cipher. Yeah. And so I think I want to come a little bit in criticizing, like, the allegorical method here, that instead what happens when we do that is we're, we're...

I think we're obscuring a little bit Christ's actual didactic purpose, which is fundamentally ethical and legal, 'cause that's the question he's answering. He's trying to answer this question, "Who's my neighbor?" And he's gonna do it- Right ... with this definition-shattering example. And so I think, like, the most responsible hermeneutic here affirms that, like we said before, a parable should have a single main point, and it's determined in this context by that punchline, like you said.

Um, at the same time, I think we can legitimately, like, permit some restrained theological reflection on, like, that broader resonance with the gospel. I'm not denying that. But without multiplying, like, allegorical [00:23:00] correspondences like the text itself doesn't even make. Even, even coming down to, like, who we see as Christ in the story, while that can be useful and helpful, it's not the same identification that we've seen in other parables.

Yeah. So that's what makes this, like you're right, Tony, like, really unique and very interesting because we can draw lots and lots of parallels, and perhaps we should. But at the same time, it's always good to remember what is it that Jesus is on about here? What is it that the hearers were really being prone to understand and mull over and meditate on?

And that's, like, this first principle of neighborly love, like you already called out.

Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah, and I, I agree with you, too, is I, I think, um- We can sort of fall into a trap or a pit of assuming that all of the parables are meant to explain the same thing. Sure. And I think, like, within Matthew maybe that's a little bit more, uh, accurate because m- I think all, if not [00:24:00] most of, of the Matthean parables, you know, the Kingdom of God is like, the Kingdom of God is like.

So th- like, that repeated f- refrain of, like, the Kingdom of God is... In, in Matthew, Christ is using parables to teach about the mysterious hidden reality of the kingdom in a way that people can understand. Um, this is different, right? This is not a Kingdom of God is like. There is no, um, clear this is like that, uh, introduction to this parable.

Right. I, I've actually even read some commentaries that would question the assignment of the title parable to this, because they want to restrict what a parable is to those sort of kingdom, like, explicit simile- Good point ... things. Yeah. So- Right ... but I, I do think, um, w- we, we have to be careful not to run down that road, because this parable is not really...

Again, like, it's not explaining what the Kingdom of God is like. This is trying to, um, not trying to, Christ is [00:25:00]articulating a reality that is baked into the law, um, and he's flipping the question on its head, and this is what I think is so, um, so wrong about the allegorical approach, right? Is that the allegorical approach seeks to find symbolism in every discrete character or element of the, of the parable, or of the, the allegory if you wanna, we wanna distinguish it.

This really is, is trying to just get at that one point. And what- Mm-hmm ... I think is so, what must have been really just infuriating for this lawyer, um, regardless of what happened after this, right? We don't, we don't get commentary like we do with the rich, young ruler, and the stories are in many ways are very much the same.

Like, it's the same basic setup. But we don't get commentary that, like, he went away sad, like we do with the rich, young ruler. We don't know what happened with this guy. We don't know what his reaction... But I, I'm sitting there putting myself in his place, and I'm, I'm thinking through this, and this is one of those things that it's actually hard even to mentally get yourself there.

The, [00:26:00] the, each character that is introduced here, um, is a candidate for the neighbor. Right. But the most obvious candidate based on, um, the way we commonly interpret this, is that the dude who gets beat up and left stripped naked is, is the neighbor that we're supposed to love Right? So the lawyer, as he's hearing this parable, as it's being told, and the, the people who are there listening, right, the, the other people that are around, there's this character introduced, "Who is my neighbor?

Well, a man was going down to Jerusalem. He fell among roggers, Roger, robbers, who stripped him and beat him and departed, leaving him half dead." Like, the obvious answer is that Christ is introducing this poor, destitute, beat-up, naked dude, uh, as the neighbor that needs to be loved. And so he goes through the whole parable, and you're like, oh, well, like, the, you know, the, the priest and the Levite, they didn't love this guy.

Uh, the Samaritan, you know, I think an audience of Jews probably would've been thinking like, "Well, the Samaritan can't be..." You know, the Samaritan [00:27:00] is just a dude. Like, none of these people are loving the, the, the beat-up dude like a neighbor should. Right. And then all of a sudden, Christ flips the script, and the neighbor is not the dude who's laying there naked, half dead, who's been rescued and, and, you know, restored and is being healed.

It's actually the Samaritan. And so there's this... We have to... Part of the reason, I think, I mean, I, I, I guess I don't know for sure, but part of the reason I think s- that parables have this, like, reversal of expectation baked into many of them is that it is there to challenge our assumptions, and th- that sort of whiplash effect when you get to the end of it, you're like, "Whoa, that was like he was talking about totally, something totally different than what it seemed like he was talking about."

I think that's actually a teaching tool here as well. Right. That the, the whole time you're thinking like, "Oh, this dude is the neighbor, and I've gotta figure out how to love him best," and that's what plays into these mercy ministry interpretations, is thinking that the, the point of the parable is to show us how to take [00:28:00] care of the, the people who need help, when really the point of the parable is the good neighbor.

And, uh, we might butt heads a little bit on this, 'cause I think I take probably more of a Christological, uh, topological, typological interpretation than you do. I, I think that the point of the parable is that you can't justify yourself, and the only one who can justify you is the one who's kept the law perfectly.

And what does it mean to keep the law perfectly? Well, love the Lord your God, but also love your neighbor as yourself. Well, who's the only person in the story who's loved the neighbor as himself? The one who s- rescues and heals and pays for this poor man who's been, you know, waylaid by robbers. He's the good neighbor who fulfills the law.

He's the one who's justified himself. Now, yes, "Go do likewise," there's some echoes there of, of the go and sin no more language that we see in other places, too. So I, I think this parable is more, is more about- A, and this is where it shares some affinity with the rich young ruler, [00:29:00] right? The rich young ruler is told to go and to, to sell everything he has and donate it to the poor and to come and follow Christ.

And he says, you know, he, he can't do that. He walks away sad. In this instance, it's the same kind of situation. It's an, a question about how do I fulfill the law? What do I need to do to be saved, to inherit eternal life, to obtain eternal life, whatever the phrasing is. And the answer is, "Obey the law perfectly."

And the guy goes, "Well, hey, I did that." And he said, "Well, let me show you how much you didn't do that." And the reality is the only one who did that is Christ, the good teacher, right? I mean, there, there's so many parallels between these two accounts. It, it's almost the same, it's almost the same story. This one just in sort of parable answer form versus a more direct form, which we see with the rich young ruler.

Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, what I find really fascinating about these is that whereas, like you said, the, some of the other parables, they come under the volitional teaching of Christ. That is, He is presenting forward the topic at hand. So usually it's in the context of conversation, but He essentially makes [00:30:00] the segue. He presents and opens up this new kind of vista to explore.

In this case, or in both those cases you talked about, the confrontation really comes from the outside. Of course, God, through Christ, predestined all of these things to pass, so I'm not saying that Christ was caught off guard, of course, by this line of questioning. And presumably He understands that when the lawyer asks this question, He knows that it's from a position of self-justification.

So I don't disagree that that might be there, some of that at play, and that really the ultimate end of this would bring, to bring one's self to the realization that you can't do this. At the same time, though, I think almost, especially in this one, I think, uh, it's not that Jesus withholds that, but I read that do, go and do likewise is this is what you said you wanted.

You asked me for an answer, and I gave you the answer. You asked for the law- Yeah ... I will give you the law. So I actually don't know how this ended. It doesn't strike me that it ended well, and I think, I don't know if there was some kind of massive realization there, but it's almost as if there is some [00:31:00] obscuring of this.

This is like typical parable, parable language where I think if you're there and you're listening, and you're trying to just track with the question and track how that compounds and corresponds with the law, that you would leave more destitute, more confused, and perhaps more angry than before, and certainly not in a position of understanding, "Well, th- this one before me is the Christ."

But that's exactly what parables do. So again, I, I think to me- Right ... I see this more as certainly, again, there are these wonderful themes These kind of overtures of the gospel within, but they are dark and very obscured because the man asks a question about the law, and Jesus comes with a message about the law.

And like you said, that law is- Yeah ... like, there's almost no grace in his tone as I read it because, not that he is not graceful or full of grace and gracious, but this guy asks for justification under the law. And so it ends with saying, it ends with this really phenomenal phrase, of course, of the lawyer realizing he's got himself [00:32:00] caught in having to respond truthfully in answering the question of who is the neighbor, but of course doesn't identify the neighbor except to say, "Oh, the one who has compassion," as if like he himself couldn't bring himself- Right

to say these words. And then for Jesus to say, "Yeah, go do it," is, is kind of like the ultimate nail in the coffin.

Tony Arsenal: Yeah, and to tell a first century Jew to go and do, to be- Yes ... like a Samaritan is- Yes ... you know, e- even, even though that's not, like, highlighted in the text, you're right. Like, the, the lawyer probably couldn't bring himself to say the Samaritan was, right?

And I, I think, um, you know, whether you take, uh, and maybe I'm novel on this. I guess I haven't really read, read a lot of people that take a, a more optimistic approach of this. But whether you take a more optimistic outcome approach or a more pessimistic or neutral, whatever, the, the actual outcome is the same, right?

The, the lawyer is asking about self-justification under the law, like you said. Right. And Christ gives him [00:33:00] that. He tells him exactly what that means and what that looks like. And I think the, the impossibility of being the good neighbor as is described in the parable is exactly the sort of beat down of the law that, that, you know, we've talked about in the past is it's not as though, um, the, the, the actions of the Samaritan are not, uh, outwardly impossible, right?

We- Right ... it's not unreasonable to think that someone could rescue someone from the side of the road and bring them to ... And like, the scenario itself is not that crazy. But the, the overall complex of the scenario, right? The fact that this man, um, was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, right? The, the ... All of this points to sort of like an impossible circumstance, an impossible situation.

And, and the idea that even [00:34:00] within that impossible situation you're still expected to take care of the person who is your enemy, right? The Samaritan seeing a Jewish man beaten by the side of the road- That's right ... and although the parable doesn't specifically call out that he's Jewish, if he's going from Jerusalem to Jericho, there's an implication that he may actually also have been a priest.

Um, we, we don't need to get into all the details on that, but there's, there's some good, uh, some good research out there that would point to the fact that the road from Jerusalem to Jericho is, uh, was actually a very common pathway traveled by either priests or Levites. And further evidence is that a priest and a Levite are also on this same road.

And so the idea that the Samaritan would, um, would- Sacrifice of himself to take care of someone who very likely considers him to be an enemy, and sacrifices in a pretty significant way. Um, I, I'll, I'll pause and now as you're [00:35:00]talking I'll do all the, the background scrambling to make it look like I know exactly how much-

a denari is supposed to, to be, and I know we've talked about it before, it's just not there.

Lavish Impossible Mercy

Tony Arsenal: But, but it's not a- Yeah ... it's not a trivial amount of money. That's right. We're not talking about checking this guy into, like, a Motel 6 and, and dropping a couple hundred dollars. We're, we're talking about a substantial amount of money and, and we're talking about a commitment to pay whatever is required.

Okay. An unknown amount of money for this man who has been left for dead. We're not talking about a minor injury. The, the robbers beat him up, they took his clothes, and they expected him to die in the desert. He needed to be carried on a donkey. He needed to have immediate first aid attention. We're talking about a, a relatively long-term recovery.

So the scenario would be more like, we think of it like, "Oh yeah, I dropped him off at the local hotel for him to sleep it off." The scenario would be more like, "I found a guy on the side of the road. I didn't know who he was. He's, he's of a group of people that would consider me to be their enemy, and he's been shot 100 times, and I'm gonna patch up his [00:36:00] wounds.

I'm gonna take him to the hospital. I'm gonna not only pay and say, 'Here, I, I've already used some supplies. Let me pay for that,' but I'm gonna pay for all of his medical bills until he's healed." Like, that's the scenario we're talking about. So it's not, it's not just, like, a good deed that has been done that is maybe, like, a really, really good deed, like it's a really nice thing to do.

It's a, it's an outlandishly almost impossible to conceive of doing good deed. N- I don't know anyone, um, who would... And, and I know a lot of really great people. This is not a slam. I don't know anyone who would find a stranger on the road and who is, who's gravely injured and commit to pay for all of their medical care until they're healed.

I just don't know anybody who would do that. Right. Um, some might say there's actually some wisdom in that, and, uh, we've talked about how sometimes the parables present a situation where maybe, like, this isn't actually the best practical knowledge. It's there to prove a point. Right. But I don't know anybody who, I don't know anybody who would do that, who, who would even think about doing that.

Um, so the, the scenario here is one [00:37:00] of impossible lavish goodness being extended to those who you have no reason to be good to, and probably have reason to not be good to. That's what we're talking about. And so the, when the, the lawyer is told to go and do likewise, he's being told to do something that is impossible to fulfill, or even to conceive of fulfilling.

And so there is this element of, like, "You think you can obey the law? Well, let me tell you how much you can't

Jesse Schwamb: obey

Tony Arsenal: the law."

Jesse Schwamb: Right. By the way, this episode is brought to you by State Farm. Like a good Samaritan, State Farm is there. Every time we've been saying good neighbor, I've been just been trying to avoid thinking about- Yeah

Jake from State Farm. That's what I've been doing most of this time.

Tony Arsenal: Jake from State Farm?

Jesse Schwamb: Um, I totally agree, of course.

Priest Levite And The Law

Jesse Schwamb: Like, what strikes me here is that it's, like you said, there is all this emphasis on what it means to show neighborly love, but the setup is also in those who basically should be showing it but aren't, and that's where we get, can get into this lovely...

It's, [00:38:00] it's okay to kinda think through some of these characters. You know, for this priest and the Levite here, and what we know about them is that they, at first it sounds like there, there's almost this sense in the language like the priest falls ab- upon this, this, you know, bloodied man by chance, and that kinda heightens the drama, I think.

The priest's confrontation is a little bit unplanned, but it's immediate and unavoidable, and he chooses to cross on the other side of the road, which is of course a deliberate act of avoidance. It's not mere obliviousness. And then the Levi almost goes further, or he came to the place, he saw him closer inspection, you know, greater culpability, and yet he still passes by.

I really do wish I could hear this, like, in real time, like be among, because I have to- Yeah ... wonder that there'd be this kind of sense of building in the story. And the people might be kind of getting the sense that the characters that they know and love or should love as the heroes are not gonna be performing that way.

And so I think even they're curious. They might be hoping against hope that it's gonna turn out well, but knowing the question and maybe something about Jesus, [00:39:00] they might anticipate that he's gonna go in a different direction. And so again, I think we have to stick with the text here. Like, Jesus doesn't explicitly state the motives of these gentlemen, but it's truthful.

What's true- Right ... is that, like, these boys should have known better. You know, a lot of people have speculated that it was for ritual purity concerns or the, another ambush or social distance or just callousness. And I think that ambiguity might be deliberate because, again, what cuts against the lawyer here is whatever the specific excuse, the point is that these, like this kind of professional religiosity and even, like, meticulous law observance are of course not identical with, and probably can even distract or obstruct the love of neighbor that the law itself commands, which is wild, right?

Because we talked about how, again, this just shows the law doesn't empower you to do the thing, and in fact, here- Right ... you could essentially abuse the law so that you suck the spirit right out of it and therefore do not do the very thing that it was intended to accomplish. So even this by itself, you just stop the parable here, it's kind of condemning because it's really this [00:40:00] potent warning against some kind of merely external ceremonial, professionalized religiosity that fails to produce, I guess, what Matthew calls, like, the weightier matters of law, like justice and mercy and faithfulness.

And, you know, we should understand this because I think those that are from tradition have a certain affinity for the third use of the law as a guide for the grateful Christian living, and that's, you know, kind of what we're talking about here. But it insists that true law keeping is never merely ritual or notional, but it must issue in love, like costly love.

Love outside of being inconvenienced is not genuine. I, I guess we'll get there. But, you know, I don't wanna harp on the characters as some are prone to do, but that is, I think, why the characters are here. It's both to set up and show, like, you're about to see that you really do not wanna identify by your own persuasion, by your own presuppositions with the one who's gonna be the hero, that is the, the one that shows neighborly love.

At the same time, I'm gonna show you by way of condemnation that those who should exercise the greater love, [00:41:00] that do know better, that should know better, that should emblem- be emblematic of the spirit of the law, have done the exact same thing. Which I can only, uh, hope but believe is what this lawyer heard as well was that he was hearing that he was being stuck into this place before he was even given the question, well, who was the neighbor here?

Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah, and I, I think, um- There is a real sense in some of the parables that are sort of spoken against people. Um, this one doesn't specifically use that language, but it, it is a targeted, kind of a targeted response. There is a sense that throughout the course of the parable being told, they start to recognize midway through that they're like- Right

you are the man. Like, this is one- Right, right ... of those Nathan and David kind of parables where, like, at some point the realization must have dawned on this guy that, like, "I've gotta be somebody in this parable." And I think that's where, where the, the challenging part is, is it's not clear, um, [00:42:00] it's not really clear even at the end of the parable who Christ is intending this guy to be, right?

Right. Is he the lawyer or is he the, uh, is he the, the dead man on the side of the road, right? Is he... Or the dying man. Is, is he the l- the priest and Levite who pass by? Is he supposed to be the Samaritan, which would just be wildly offensive. Um, he's not necessarily, like, supposed to be anyone except for the fact that now at th- the punchline of the, the encounter here, Christ says, "Go and be like the Samaritan."

And it's kind of like y- you know, if you were really following God's law, you would be the Samaritan in this one- Yeah, that's right ... but you're not. That's right. You're not and you can't be. Um, and so go, go ahead and do likewise.

Christ As True Neighbor

Tony Arsenal: Um, I, I do think, too, there is some elements here where, um, I- Again, I, I think I take a little bit more of a typological, Christological-centered approach on this, but I, I don't think they're incompatible.

But I do think there's an element here where Christ is also [00:43:00] unveiling, uh, sort of what he would do, like what, what his own plan of salvation is as the good, as the capital G, capital N good neighbor. Um, he is the one who does pour oil and wine on our wounds, right? A- and I don't wanna ... I don't think we need to fly off the allegorical deep end of reading oil and wine to be a reference to the Holy Spirit and t- Right

but sometimes those things are evocative, indirect things that should, we should call our mind to those things. Like, I think, um, you know, when Melchizedek comes to bless Abraham and he, he presents him with bread and wine, right? I, I think, like, it's okay for us to go, "Wow, the Holy Spirit really made a point there that's subtle."

And I think those little things within this parable drive me to look at this a little bit more along the lines of not only is there this sort of, like, law beat down, you [00:44:00] know, John Bunyan or not, um, Bunyan style, like the, "Moses just beat the crap out of me," kind of a- Right ... kind of a thing from Pilgrim's Progress.

There's that, and I think it's really there. But it's also, uh, it's also sort of like this, uh, you know, "Blessed is the one who has ears to hear" side of it of, like, for those who are regenerated and can see the parable, can see the figures in the parable, it is now this beautiful picture of what it is that Christ does for those who cannot do it for themselves, right?

And it's almost like the parable becomes a litmus test. If you look at the parable, and as you're reading through it, you sit there and you go, "Yeah, man, I'm like that guy who got beat up and left for dead. That, that really describes me," um, you're gonna get to the end of this and you're gonna be sort of, like, sitting in awe of, like, "Man, I have such a great savior who threw me on his donkey and, and promised to take care of all of my, all of my wounds, and promised to pay whatever it, whatever it cost."

Um, y- you know, and all of these elements of, [00:45:00] like, oil and wine and, and all of these things be- kind of become alive to you in a way that someone who sees themselves as the, the good Samaritan, who thinks they're the one who's gonna come and rescue people, or I think increasingly in our day, and it's, it's weird to even say this, I think there are people who would look at this and resonate with the priest and lawyer and actually say, like, "Yeah, they shoulda, they shoulda crossed to the other side of the room."

Mm-hmm. I've heard defenses of that in trying to argue that- The priest and the Levite, if they had, if this person was dead, they had touched the dead body, then, you know, they would've been ceremonially unclean. Uh, all of that is, I think, worth speculating about. But the reality is, um, who you see yourself in the parable actually says a lot, I think, about how you see Christ in light of either our ability to fulfill the law or our inability to fulfill the law, and therefore have our need for Christ.

If you think you're the good Samaritan, if you think you're the one that's gonna come and [00:46:00] rescue people, that you're gonna be, you're gonna be the good neighbor, you're much more likely to see, uh, to, to be needing this as a sort of a law beat-down. Where those of us who, maybe this is the way you wanna parse it out, right?

There's those of us who are, uh, regenerated and in Christ, and this is third-use law, right? This is, this is us- Right ... seeing what it means to be holy, and going and doing likewise, trying in our power, in our, our best to go and do likewise, empowered by the Holy Spirit, recognizing that we can't, and trusting the Lord to accept our feeble attempts- Right

and be pleased by them. Right. Um, or maybe if you're not regenerated, this is f- this is first use, right? Right. And, and, and this is actually there to terrify you and to show you your condemnation and to serve as your condemnation. And, and there's even, and I didn't really intend to go all the way with this, but there's, there is also an element in here, and this is where, like, the mercy ministry interpretation comes in, where this is civil, this is civil law, where this is the, the, the, um, you know, the civil use of the law [00:47:00] to restrain evil, to show society what it is to be good, to, to restrain sin.

Right. Yes, we want to be, uh, we, I would rather live in a society where people stop and help someone who's stranded or injured on the side of the road than, than a society where people pass by. Um, so I, I think all of those elements are in play here, and we do have to be careful not to take the full-on, like, never go full allegory approach to this, 'cause y- you can really...

That's just a good general wisdom for all of, all of the Bible, but especially the parables and other figurative stuff. You can really just go totally far afield of what actually the point of the parable is- Right ... if you're not grounding it in the purpose that Christ is teaching it for, and, and the stated outcome of the parable, right?

No one in the Bible makes c- I don't know that anyone in the Bible makes specific commentary on this within scripture, but the, the idea that, like, there's all these hidden meanings, well, if those are the hidden meanings, then why doesn't Christ talk about it? Why doesn't he come back- Right ... and [00:48:00] interpret those symbols later on like he does, like the Parable of the Sower or the Parable of the Seeds or Soils.

Um, that one is much more directly allegorical in that the different seeds, the different soils represent specific people with specific s- scenarios. Christ comes and, and does that allegorical interpretation later on in the passage. There's nothing like that here. So I think we have to be really careful not to slip down that road.

Jesse Schwamb: I think that it could be all those things. I, I totally agree with you on that. I think it could be all the use cases of the law. I think what makes this so wonderfully complex and a little bit tricky is that when I read this, I actually don't necessarily find myself gravitating toward putting myself in one place or the other.

It almost depends on where I am or what's going on in my life. So for example, I think any time that any one of us, and we've all done this as Christians, have quenched the spirit, especially with respect to helping, serving, or loving others as my, our neighbor, then we're firmly in this parable in the place [00:49:00] of the priest and the Levite.

Sometimes I think we are the one on the side of the road. We look to the church, to our brothers and sisters to help us, and what do they help us with? Like you were saying, Tony, they help us with that blood and oil. They help us with this, the power of the Holy Spirit, which is given to each one to help and to serve, to identify, to comfort with the comfort we ourselves have been received.

And then I do think, and this might be unpopular, that, that sometimes by the grace of God, He empowers us to be the Samaritan, but only through His empowerment. Not, of course, because we're trying to just self-justify or because we're overtly generous in our own merit, but in fact, this is the way we ought to live, and that we ought to commend that kind of behavior to, again, acknowledge it as God-given and to promulgate it, especially among the body of believers.

So I do think all three forms of the law are present there, but I do think I tend to, for whatever reason, right or wrong, I tend to tilt a little bit toward that third use here, just to see this as it's not wrong to, of course, to, I think, uh, lay over all of this, all these delightful variables and [00:50:00] details.

Again, this idea of blood and oil, n- normative things, normal things, standard things that are being used to address- Yeah ... wounds. They're, they're... Of course, that would've been the practical way which you would've provided some kind of medicinal care to somebody in both that extreme circumstance, but also generally, because nobody's, like, keeping gauze or popping Advil to help this, this poor guy.

And so it is- Right ... like this beautiful complexion of, I think, everything that we just talked about, that there is the law present, and depending on where you are, both in terms of your ingrafting into eternity, into the Kingdom of God, and then where you are in life, you- we should read ourselves probably, or l- let me say it this way, not so it's like eisegesis, but, like, that we should see ourselves often at different pli- times maybe playing or being tempted to play the parts of these different characters.

And in that we find, I think, ultimately, of course, as you're saying, that Christ is over all, and that He is the one that, of course, perfectly emphasizes all of what it means to be the Savior, the [00:51:00] true loving neighbor who cares and binds and heals completely full stop. And yet there is something instructive here, I think, as well about going and bringing that compassion.

I was just thinking, like, as we were talking, that there's such a difference, isn't there, like, in our world between these days, like, pity and compassion? Like, pity often is like, "Yeah, I feel sorry for you," but it strikes me as kind of like the James, is it James 1 or James 2, where it's kind of like, "Oh, you're...

I, I'm so sorry that, like, you're, you're hungry and cold. You know what? Go, be warm, and be well-fed." You know, that's like pity. Like, "Yeah, I just- Yeah ... I feel a little bad. I identified with your emotions." Sending

Tony Arsenal: good vibes.

Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. I've got- Yeah. Yeah. That's right, right? Sending good thoughts and good vibes your way.

I wanna say, like, keep those to yourself 'cause they're probably not all that- Yeah ... good. Um- I

Tony Arsenal: don't want your vibes.

Jesse Schwamb: I don't want your vibes. Get your vibes out of here. What I need is that power of God himself, uh, to bring compassion, and compassion is always wrapped in action. It identifies- Right ... and then goes.

It, it's, it [00:52:00] is not self-promoting, it's self-sacrificing. And so that rule of law, which is like the good rule of law, the good teaching, the kind that brings life because it's the Decalogue wrapped in skin perfectly performed by the power of the Holy Spirit through the one who is perfect again in his passive obedience and active obedience.

Yes, yes, we need, we need all of that. It's modeled here, I think, to a certain extent, but I think the go and do likewise is actually for all of us, but it's not the kind like we would say, "Well, like, good luck." It's more the- Yeah ... you know the one from whose side the blood flowed. You know the one who is pressed in the garden as if olives under the press leaking oil.

You know who that one was, and that one is His spirit resides in you. So now go and do these acts- Yeah ... of mercy. Again, not s- for some kind of meritorious reward, but because you were made for good works, which were set apart for you to do, and part of those good works are [00:53:00] just always being a good neighbor.

Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah, and, and maybe to, to close out, I, I, I think maybe we actually did it. I don't know that we're gonna have to do another episode on this. I guess we'll see after we do- Who would've guessed? ... our postmortem here.

Mary Martha And Final Charge

Tony Arsenal: But I, I think part, part of, um, part of what we need to at least acknowledge is that what, what follows this parable, right?

This, this goes from a parable of a lawyer seeking to justify himself to now the account of Mary and Martha, and the fact that, uh, that, um, M- Martha, you know, is busy with much work, and Mary is sitting and listening to, to Jesus and is said to have chosen the better part. And I think, like- Mm ... this is something that I think because of the way, like, Bibles are formatted, the way that certain things are sort of, like, extracted out as discrete teaching units, this parable is pulled out and separated from this next part.

And I, I think we can [00:54:00] really run into problems when we do that because- You know, even if we, even if we were to sort of treat the scripture as, like, a purely human book, right? Luke chose to put this account of Mary and Martha after this, right? And, and- Right ... probably not just because, like, it happened chronologically.

There's no real, um, there's no real necessity that this account of Mary and Martha in this particular story had to happen immediately afterwards. Like, there's no organic link in, in the chronology of the story to drive that, right? And the two aren't related in terms of, like, historical cause and effect or, uh, proximity.

There's none of those things. So the only answer as to why this was selected to follow the parable of the Good Samaritan is that there's some thematic connection that drove Luke as an author to put this, put this right following that. And so I think even that should drive us to thinking about, all [00:55:00] right, we've got this statement of go and do likewise, show mercy.

Now there's almost this foil that the, the, the person in, in the account in the, the narrative here, and a, a true narrative, right? We're not in parable land anymore, but the person in the narrative that seems to be showing mercy, seems to be taking care of people the most, is actually the one who's chastised a little bit for, for being- Right

overly zealous about m- mercy ministry, hospitality ministry- Right ... is what you might call it. She's the one who's like, "Tell my sister to help me with this." And she said, like, "You know, you're always gonna have time to do this, but, like, I'm not always gonna be here. You're, you're anxious and troubled about many things."

You know, the one thing is necessary. Well, what's the one thing in the parable or in the- Right ... in the story, in the account here? The one thing that's necessary is to sit at the Lord's feet and be instructed. So I, I think we, that, that whole complex c- looking at what came before this, looking at what comes after it, we didn't talk about it, but even if you go earlier into, um, earlier into, uh, the chapter here, we have, um, we have, you know, [00:56:00] the statements about, uh, things that are hidden.

We have all of these things about evangelism and ministry and conversion that are kind of baked into this chapter.

Jesse Schwamb: Right.

Tony Arsenal: We really, you know, we really have to read the parable in light of all of that. So I think this has been a good, a good discussion, and I, I love that- It, even though we, at some point we have to decide to move on.

We can't just, like, become the Luke 10:25 through 32 parable podcast. Although that would be a sick podcast. I would listen to that. Um, we're not gonna be that podcast, so we have to, at some point we have to sort of say, like, "All right. We, we on The Reformed Brotherhood are done talking about this- Yeah ... for, for the time being."

For now. I still always feel like I'm leaving that like, "Oh, there's just so much more we could say about this." Oh, mm-hmm. "There's so much more we could talk about." Okay. Um, and that's the beauty of these parables is they're so rich, they're so deep. Some of them are so short, but they still, you know, that, that old adage that, like, it's deep enough for a child to wade in and- Mm-hmm

you know, or it's, it's shallow enough for [00:57:00] a child and deep enough for an adult. Like, that's really true here in this parable, but it's really true of all the parables. So I'm so blessed by, by the fact that we get to do this every week and talk about the Bible every week and, and we have a reason to need to, like, be careful about our thoughts and think through things.

It, it's really- Sure ... one of the great blessings of my life that I'm able to do this.

Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, likewise. I, and, and that way I hope that we're encouraging you as you're listening to grab a friend, a family member, a spouse, a loved one, somebody from a church. Go, go tackle the nearest elder to you and- ... talk about these things, too.

Use us as an excuse if you want to. I hope that it's, like, promoting and promulgating conversation in your own lives, because as I've been thinking about this since we talked about it last week, I can just share for me one of the things I've really been pondering over and over again is that this parable, like, really forbids Christians from allowing ethnic, religious, political, national, social- Yeah

categories to define or limit the scope of, like, our practical compassion. And I've been thinking for me, what [00:58:00]does that mean? My li- my life, honestly, everybody is pretty homogenous. I think generally we prefer homogeneity to otherwise. And I live in an area that's very much not like that. And so just this idea of keeping one's eyes open by the power of the Holy Spirit to be useful to others, to show love in ways that are small.

Wasn't it Mother Teresa that said, like, there, there are no great things, just small th- small things with great love? You know, that sentiment I think is right on to a degree, and it's maybe easier to practice that kind of love than we know about. But also, where are these people in our communities? Because I'm certain wherever you live, work, and play, they exist.

Yeah. They just need help. They're down and out, and they're probably very much unlike you or me. And we might do a little bit better if we actually sought some of that out. Yeah. And I've been thinking about what that would mean. And then ultimately, I think we're relying on this, this idea that this text is not really to be preached or applied as some kind of bare moral exhortation.

It's not... Again, please hear us [00:59:00] correctly. It's not try harder to be like the Samaritan. That's totally disconnected from the gospel. It should be preached in a manner that exposes the impossibility of self-justification, like you were saying, Tony. It certainly did for this lawyer, I hope. And then, of course, it does point us to Christ as the one whose perfect, costly, self-giving mercy alone satisfies the law's demand on our behalf, and whose spirit alone empowers us as believers to then go do likewise, apply the blood, apply the oil in our lives to those who desperately need it as an act of grateful Spirit-wrought obedience rather than some kind of anxious self-salvation.

It's so-

Tony Arsenal: Yeah ...

Jesse Schwamb: heavy that this is like, um, you know, like, Tony, do you ever, like, you ever, like, smelled or tasted something and you're like, "Ooh, that's funky," and then you keep going back to it? It's like you can't decide whether you like it or not. I'm embarrassed to say that's- Yeah ... kind of how I feel about this parable.

Not because, of course, I don't appreciate that this is God's word for us, his [01:00:00] very direct revelation for his children. It's everything that we need for godly living and for practical life here. It's that there's a lot in here for me to really ponder if I let myself think about it, and it's not about who represents- Yeah

whom so much as it is about how am I applying what it means to be a good neighbor, knowing that there is an expectation that being under the one who is the ultimate good neighbor, how then should I embody that in my own life by acts of sacrifice, by acts of love that are dramatic and are generous. But not because, again, they are showy, but because, and not because it's what the law requires, even though it does, but it's because what Jesus already won for us on our behalf.

And now we do something better than pay it forward. We live it out. We show that we were once dead and we're now alive. And as people who are truly alive, the only human beings who are truly free, we do all these things self-sacrificially in love because God loves us.

Tony Arsenal: [01:01:00] Yeah. Yeah, maybe, um, I, I feel the same way, Jesse.

Like this, this is, uh, the thing that's stuck in my craw is like- The fact that Christ didn't answer the question- Yeah ... in, in the expected way, like that really drives me to think about it. So I don't wanna leave people with a sort of like, "Yeah, we don't really get it, we don't understand it," sort of a vibe.

Um, I think there's a reality to like the scripture needs to be studied as a life discipline. Right. You're never gonna like graduate from studying the scriptures. But I wanna leave with these words from, uh, Matthew Henry on this. Um, he says, "Now this parable's applicable to another purpose." He, he went through sort of like the traditional understanding of what the parable is for, and he says, "Now this applic- this parable's applicable to another purpose than that for which it was intended, and it does excellently set forth the kindness and love of God, our Savior, towards sinful, miserable man.

We were like this poor distressed traveler. Satan, our enemy, had robbed us, stripped us, wounded us. Such is that mischief that sin had done to us. [01:02:00] We were by nature more than half dead, twice dead in trespasses and sin, utterly unable to help ourselves, for we were without strength. The law of Moses, like the priest and Levite, the ministers of the law, looks upon us but has no compassion on us, gives us no release, passes by on the other side as having neither pity nor power to help us.

But then comes the blessed Jesus, the good Samaritan- Mm ... and they said of him by the way of reproach, he was a Samaritan. He has compassion on us. He binds up our bleeding wounds, pours in not o- not oil and wine, but that which is infinitely more precious, his own blood. He takes care of us and bids us all the expenses of our cure upon his account.

And all this, though he was none of us till he was pleased by his voluntary condescension to make himself so, but infinitely above us. This magnifies the riches of his love and obliges us to say, 'How much are we indebted, and what shall we render?'" And I think the reason that I, I close [01:03:00] with that is If this parable and our conversation about it does nothing except stirring you to gratitude for the fact that our, our supreme good neighbor threw us on his donkey and carried us to the public house, and bound up our wounds, and paid for our debt, if it does nothing but drive you to gratitude and thankfulness and wonder, then we've succeeded in our task and we've left you with the Gospel.

And that's always where I wanna leave people, is with the Gospel. So thank you so much for joining us, uh, for, for looking through these parables with us. Um, again, we're, we're gonna come up to the end of the parables a lot quicker than it feels. It felt like we were, we were taking a ton of time, and then all of a sudden we're kinda rushing to the end.

So we've got, we've still got s- probably a couple months left of this, um, but we would love to have some questions, uh, some thoughts that we can maybe discuss in sort of a recap episode. So please do, uh, think through questions that have come up, things that you wanna, wanna dig into, you know, rabbit trails that we haven't been able to follow that you [01:04:00] might want us to take a look at, and, and get those to us.

Um, and you know all the usual ways to do that. We don't have to do the whole housekeeping, join the Telegram chat stuff. You guys know how to find it. If you've listened for any amount of time, you're annoyed with us for saying it every time. Um, but we do wanna hear from you. We do wanna know- Yes ... what you think.

We would love your feedback. We love your participation. Um, it's common that stuff that occurs in our Telegram chat, for example, or emails we get, drives us to think through a topic differently, or drives us- True ... to think about a topic that we hadn't thought about before, and that often plays into what we decide to talk about on the show.

Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, it's true. And since, as you know, the only reason why there wasn't an actual ad from State Farm on this episode- ... was because we don't play that game. Jake from State Farm, he longed, he was pining to do an ad on this episode because of the resonant character of what we were talking about. We said, "No, we don't take your money.

We know the good, good neighbor, and we don't need it." And then we also don't need it because God's people provide for us. So if you have been blessed in some way by this podcast, first of all, if any of this stuff [01:05:00] made sense to you today, then you really ought to put up a word of praise to God himself who has changed you, regenerated you, saved you.

And then maybe as you're thinking, you know, I'd like to make sure that the Reformed Brotherhood podcast continues to go out into all the lands or all the lands with internet and ears, then there is a way that you can support that. And if you go to patreon.com/reformedbrotherhood, there's a way for you to give a one-time gift, uh, large or small, or a reoccurring gift, s- large or small.

All of that just makes sure that the hosting, posting, and editing, even if it's Tony and I self-editing in real time, which I'm not doing right now, which is why this episode- ... is going longer, it makes sure that all of this happens. We are really, really grateful that others partner with us to cover the costs so that this can just continue to happen.

So if that's something you're interested in, why don't you go check it out? All you have to do is check it out. Um, we are so thankful to everyone who gives because it really makes sure that Tony and I can sit down and record this week after week, and that it somehow almost automatically arrives in whatever your [01:06:00] podcast catcher of choice is.

So come join the brotherhood. Yeah. Come hang out wherever you can, however you can. We look forward to meeting you and to actually getting to know some of you.

Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Well, Jesse, that's a good place for us to wrap it. And so until next time, honor everyone.

Jesse Schwamb: Love the brotherhood

In episode 502 of The Reformed Brotherhood, Tony and Jesse begin what promises to be a multi-part deep dive into the Parable of the Good Samaritan — one of the most culturally embedded and theologically rich stories Jesus ever told. But before a single character hits the Jericho road, the hosts ground listeners in something easily overlooked: the charged context in which this parable is told. A lawyer — trained, confident, adversarial — steps forward not to learn but to test. What follows is a masterclass in how Jesus turns the law back on those who wield it as a weapon. This episode covers Luke 10:21–36, explores the covenant of works and covenant of grace, the noetic effects of sin, and why the Good Samaritan is far more than a lesson in being a helpful neighbor. Buckle up.

Key Takeaways

• The lawyer's question is self-contradictory from the start. Asking "what must I do to inherit eternal life?" smuggles a works-righteousness assumption into the very grammar of the question. Inheritance by definition is received, not earned.
• Jesus does not give the lawyer a new paradigm — He reorients him to the true one. The covenant of grace is not a New Testament innovation. It runs through every Old Testament covenant administration. The lawyer should have already known this.
• "Do this and you will live" is not a Pelagian concession. Christ is holding out the law's own terms — perfect, total, unrelenting obedience — not to suggest it is achievable, but to expose its impossibility and drive the lawyer (and us) to the only alternative: mercy.
• "Desiring to justify himself" is more complex than it first appears. Tony argues that the desire to fulfill the covenant of works is not inherently wicked — it is the misguided belief that one can which is the problem. This distinction creates room for reading Christ's response as genuinely merciful instruction, not merely rebuke.
• The noetic effects of sin mean accurate theology can be deployed in service of self. The lawyer knows the right answers and still uses them to avoid repentance. Correct doctrine alone does not save. The fundamental human problem is not ignorance — it is the will's bondage and the heart's self-love.
• The parable is primarily Christological, not merely ethical. Jesus is the Good Samaritan. The story is not first about mercy ministry; it is about who binds up our wounds when we are left for dead on the road, unable to save ourselves.
• The priest and the Levite are not exonerated by their ritual obligations. Considerable ink has been spilled trying to justify their passing by on grounds of Levitical purity concerns. The parable refuses that exit. Everyone in the story — and everyone listening — already knows what the right thing to do was.

Key Concepts The Covenant of Works Is Not a Black Box

One of the more quietly important arguments Tony makes in this episode is that the covenant of works was never meant to be mysterious or inaccessible. When Jesus responds to the lawyer's question by asking, "What is written in the law? How do you read it?" — He does so with a visible assumption: there is a clear, knowable answer, and the lawyer should be able to give it. And he does. Love God completely, love your neighbor as yourself. The covenant of works was always coherent and comprehensible. The problem has never been that its demands were obscure. The problem is that no one — save the Mediator — has ever kept them. Jesus is not introducing a new ethical framework. He is forcing the lawyer to confront a standard he has always known and has never met.

The Lawyer as a Warning to Reformed Christians

Jesse closes the episode's first movement with a pointed and personal application that cuts across theological self-satisfaction. The lawyer is not a caricature of ignorance — he is a portrait of someone with accurate, affirmed theological knowledge who instinctively deploys it in the service of self-justification the moment he senses conviction. Jesse names this directly as a danger particularly acute in Reformed circles, where doctrinal precision can become a subtle mechanism of self-defense rather than an occasion for repentance. The Reformation's great recovery of grace must not become a new form of the very disease it diagnosed. Knowing the right words about total depravity, the covenant of grace, and the mediator does not exempt anyone from the need to actually be humbled by them. Theology is not armor against repentance — it is, rightly received, the road toward it.

Context Is Not Just Setup — It Is Part of the Lesson

Tony and Jesse both emphasize that Luke 10:21–24 is not merely throat-clearing before the real content begins. The theological statement embedded there — that the Father has hidden these things from the wise and revealed them to little children, that no one knows the Son except the Father or the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal Him — is the hermeneutical key to everything that follows. The lawyer approaches Jesus as one rabbi testing another. But Luke has already told his readers that this is not a conversation between equals debating interpretive options. It is the Lawgiver being questioned by someone who does not recognize Him. The parable that follows is not just an answer to a legal question. It is a revelation — the kind that only happens when the Son chooses to give it.

Memorable Quotes

You do not want to pit the law against the one who has given the law, the one whose character is represented in the law — because you're always going to get owned, and you'll get owned before you realize you've just gotten owned on multiple levels. - Jesse Schwamb

Jesus is trying to sort of reorient them back to the true paradigm of grace that is present under all of the Old Covenant administrations. It's not so much a matter of developing a new framework and imposing it on this guy. It's really trying to say, 'Listen — think about this for a second. Think about the fact that, yes, you know you have to love the Lord your God with your whole heart, your whole soul, your whole strength, your whole mind, and you have to love your neighbor as yourself. You've answered correctly. If you can do those things, you will live.' — with the subtext: and of course you cannot possibly do those things. - Tony Arsenal

The fundamental human problem is not primarily ignorance, but the will's bondage and the heart's self-love. It's a problem no amount of correct discipline or doctrine alone can fix apart from some kind of regenerating grace — which is exactly what Jesus is going to illustrate for us in the mercy he's about to display in this parable. - Jesse Schwamb

Full Transcript

Tony Arsenal: [00:00:00] This parable is not primarily about us figuring out how to do mercy ministry. Like, that's important. It's probably an outcome of this.

It's probably something for us to think about. But really, this is actually Christ saying, like, "Hold on a second here, dude." Like, "Let's just think about this." Do you need someone who is going to tell you to pick yourself up off your bootstraps and cross to the other side of the street and leave you to your own devices?

Or do you need someone who's gonna throw you on their donkey, who's gonna bind up your wounds, who's gonna pay the innkeeper, and is gonna pledge to pay everything that is owed for your salvation? Right? That's not too on the nose here, I think. Welcome to episode 502 of The Reformed Brotherhood. I'm [00:01:00] Jesse

And I'm Tony, and this is the podcast with ears to hear. Hey, brother.

Jesse Schwamb: Hey, brother. Well, we've got a big one to talk about on this episode. We're marching further and further into all of the glorious parables Jesus told as part of His teaching.

And as you and I kind of joked before we began, I mean, what did you call it? Did you say this is, uh, the big daddy?

Tony Arsenal: It's the big daddy, one of the big daddy parables.

Jesse Schwamb: It's one of the big daddy parables. Now, this one is probably second maybe only to the prodigal son. Yeah But in terms of its ubiquity and its kind of just common knowledge in culture, this one ranks right up there.

And before I reveal what it is, which you may already know, I was thinking how so many times we look at the Beatitudes as expression of a master class in Jesus teaching the law, and I think that's true. But as I was reading and thinking about this particular parable, I thought, "I don't know. I think this one is, uh, right up there," because [00:02:00] this is like law on law.

It's double law. Yeah It's law coming back at the law giver who's trying to use the law to test Jesus, and then Jesus tests him with the law that He himself gave His people. It's... I'm already getting too excited- ... and we've got something to do before we get there. But we're talking about the parable of the Good Samaritan.

And so I can't imagine, can I just make a prediction up front? I,

you know where I'm going with this, and probably everybody else does. Uh, this is gonna be like two conversations-

Tony Arsenal: At least ...

Jesse Schwamb: probably.

Tony Arsenal: Yeah, at least two.

Jesse Schwamb: Is that fair? Because I realize we, of course, wanna get to the parable itself, and oh, my goodness, how much ink has been spilled. Even going back to, like, if you read, like, Augustine or, like, the early church, like the Patristics, the Church Fathers, there are so much that could be said, and maybe some stuff that just shouldn't be said about all the allegorical potential intent here about these characters.

But [00:03:00] there's so much amazing stuff that happens in the opening of this, that's not just the setup, but it is its own lesson, and I'm real excited actually to talk about that with you before we even get into, like, all the good stuff that everybody expects that you wanna talk about. So we're gonna do it all.

Tony Arsenal: Yeah.

Jesse Schwamb: We're gonna do it all, but it'll take time.

Tony Arsenal: Yeah. I'm interested to see if we're even on the same page about where to start reading, 'cause I, I think we might not be, and that's gonna be fun. So we'll, we'll let it fly and see what happens. It'll be our own little, uh, podcast game.

Jesse Schwamb: But, uh, I think- Well, I mean, we're gonna be in Luke chapter 10, but I guess to your point, we should be starting in Luke chapter one to get to this.

Yeah.

Tony Arsenal: Exactly. But

Jesse Schwamb: we, we do have to back up quite a bit, and I was gonna ask you about that. Yeah. But I, apparently we're just gonna play that on the fly and see where we go.

Affirmations Denials Segment

Jesse Schwamb: But of course, the Reformers had their five solos. Chalcedon had its, what, seven withouts. We've got opinions, and we're just as confident about ours, so of course it's time for affirmations, denials, where we affirm something that we think is good or awesome or [00:04:00] we wanna recommend, and we deny, again, something that is not so great or maybe just plain annoying.

So before we talk about the Parable of the Good Samaritan, Tony, what do you got for us on this episode? Are you affirming with something, or are you gonna come in with a denial?

Tony Arsenal: Well, I've got two affirmations. That's fine. One is just- I will allow it ... a declaration of joy, and one is, like, a real affirmation.

I, I just can't... It would be remiss of me not to share with our podcasting family that my son August and my daughter Adeline, uh, joined the visible church today as- Hear, hear ... uh, non-communicant members. Uh, Augie and Addie were baptized on the 16th of August of 2026, uh, into the visible church, into the name of Jesus Christ.

Uh, was, it was just a great service. Um, it's funny because I've been- been talking with Augie. One of the thing with toddlers when you're doing something big like this is you kinda have to talk about it and practice and rehearse, rehearse it and, and get them ready for it. And up until maybe, like, I don't know, three days [00:05:00] ago, every time it would come up he would be saying, "I don't wanna be baptized.

I don't wanna be baptized." And, um, you know, I, I, I, you know, I don't wanna force him to do something, but also, like, I make him eat vegetables. But, um- ... he, I, I think it was nerves, and I think something clicked in his head and all of a sudden he was very excited to be baptized. So, um, it was great. We've been talking about, you know, what baptism is, God's promise to you that if you trust him he'll save you.

And so today he- Right ... he was like, "God's gonna make a promise to me to save me." So he was very excited. Nice. And he did a great job just standing quietly and listening to the pastor talk. Uh, and Addie was, was, was just a beautiful little girl, and she, um, she loved it as well. So that's just a bonus affirmation.

I don't know that I could get through a podcast without gushing over that.

Glorify App and Devotionals

Tony Arsenal: Uh, but the, the affirmation I have, uh, this is an, an app that I think some of our listeners may have heard of. Um, some may roll their eyes at it, to be honest with you. Um, I stumbled on this because, uh, you have an Oura Ring, don't you, Jesse?

Jesse Schwamb: I do.

Tony Arsenal: You [00:06:00] do, yeah. So for those who don't know, an Oura Ring is like a little wearable ring that's like a, almost like a fitness tracker, but it tracks biometrics, pulse rate, temperature, all these different things, sleep. Um, there's a startup, uh, that has been doing a GoFundMe or a funding kind of thing for, uh, what they're calling like a Christian version of an Oura Ring.

So it does a lot of the same things, sleep tracking, basic biometric tracking. Hmm. But it also has like alerts built in, and it's tied into an app that they use for devotionals. So it'll, it'll remind you to pray. It'll remind you, you know, bring you to an app to do a devotion. But the app it uses is a standalone app that I looked up, and it's called Glorify.

Have you ever heard of this app before this evening? I have heard of

Jesse Schwamb: this, yeah.

Tony Arsenal: So Glorify is just a small devotional app. Uh, it's not much different than you would expect based on the name. It is connected to this, uh, to this Glorify ring, which again is, is sort of like an Oura Ring tied into this app.

But this app basically is, is [00:07:00] designed to help you complete short daily devotional exercises, and they're usually very brief. They're based on a very brief, um, a very brief passage of scripture. Today's passage, uh, c- there's a quote. So today's quote is from Dietrich Bonhoeffer. It says, "True love does not consist in finding the perfect person, but in faithfully loving an imperfect one."

Not sure why this devotional app is using a romance, uh, quote from Bonhoeffer of all people. But that was today's. Um, and the passage is Proverbs 5:15-17. So it's a, it's a devotional based on two verses, which is fine. So you read the passage. There's a very brief devotional on that passage, and then sort of a guided prayer, and they have both premium and free models.

The premium model includes like you can listen to the devotional, you can listen to the prayer. Um, but just for example, today's prayer, it, it's very simple. "Loving Father, thank you for, uh, thank you because you're faithful and unchanging. In a world [00:08:00] marked by broken promises, disposable relationships, you remain the same.

Teach me to reflect that faithfulness in my relationships. Help me to love with perseverance, grace, and commitment following the example of Christ. Protect marriages, strengthen families, restore what needs healing. May every relationship be marked by respect, truth, and genuine love. Shape in me a heart of integrity that honors you in both the small and significant choices of life.

In Jesus' name, amen." So I think what I love about this, and this, I mentioned last week that there was, this is kind of like, sort of like the fluffy evangelical devotions. Like- Right ... there's not a ton of like solid doctrinal meat- But like, it's still nourishing. And sometimes we need a little bit of help.

Sometimes we don't know what to pray, we don't know what to read, we're not sure. Sometimes in, I think in our Reformed circles, we feel like if we're not reading large portions of scripture and reading deep theological treaties or long, complex devotionals, that we're really not doing anything, and that's just not the [00:09:00] truth.

So I've been using this in addition to other devotional studies I'm doing. I don't do it every day. I mean, there's some like streak functionality, kinda like habit tracking type stuff that's built into it. Um, but it's nice. It's nice to be able to pick it up, read a very short scripture, a brief devotional thought, and then have some guided prayer.

I know one of the reasons I don't pray as often as I ought to is because I struggle to know what and how to pray. So even having some written prayers, I mean, this is why the Psalms are good, things like the Valley of Visions are good. Um, having some pre-written prayers that you genuinely pray but you're not having to come up with in the moment can really help.

Right. So the app is called Glorify. I know it's available on iPhone. I'm not sure about Android. I'm sure it probably is. I'm sure they wanna have a pretty broad ecosystem. Um, and, and it's good. Again, it's, it's not anything fancy. It's not anything like super technical. Uh, and as I kind of alluded, like some of it's a little weird.

Um, I, I didn't read the proverb. I think maybe the proverb is about romantic relationships, why they're, why they're tying in that, um, Bonhoeffer quote in, in the prayer. [00:10:00] But, um, even that, like it's pretty innocuous. And the quotes, like you don't have to read the quotes. It's not like you have to have to do that.

Um, you could jump in, just read the scripture or just read the devotion and just do the prayer and you would be fine. So check it out. It's called Glorify, available on iPhone for sure. I'm pretty sure it's on, on Android. And maybe it's something you add daily, you know, this kinda thing like you do when you're on the bus or you're waiting at the grocery store, something quick you can do when you might be wasting that time just sorta sitting around or scrolling Twitter.

Again, Twitter's fine. You can use your leisure time as you see fit. But if you wanna fill it with something like this, something that is more spiritual, then this would be a good option to just add a little bit of, uh, a little bit of nourishment to your diet where you might not otherwise be getting it

Jesse Schwamb: I have no proof of this, but I just keep saying it anyway.

It might be that we're living in the golden age of really great- ... daily worship resources. Like, something to actually cultivate, not just, like, a devotional nugget, but something that actually leads you into a pattern and a habit of [00:11:00]worship, giving your attentive focus on Jesus. And I love that. So, uh, uh, 'cause I was just thinking, like, I was trying to look back on some of our past affirmations here.

We've talked about the book Walking in Faith. I just gave everybody Awake My Soul last week. You're coming in with the Glorify app. I- we've talked about Dwell, if not recently, we've talked about that for some time. It's like a great Bible reading app, and there's lots and lots of new features, by the way, coming out on that- Yeah

that are fantastic. And then, yes, all these other great prayers. I, I see, like, these books on prayer, like, actually, I'm sorry, like, prayer books, I guess, as, like, a great way to kinda... It's like a jumper for your car. You know what I mean? Like, just gets you started. What a, what a lovely thing to come into a place and have a launching pad.

And I've been using a lot of Into His Presence, which is a collection of Puritan prayers, sometimes because, for instance, this just happened, where I wanted to pray for someone who was just going through a rough time, a good friend of mine. And I went to that place to kinda start and frame, knowing that I was gonna sit down with him and pray, how I might be able to do that well and [00:12:00] effectively.

And these things are just, like, really phenomenal resources. It's just an amazing time to have all these things at our disposal. So that's another great option. It's, it's really more about, like you and I have talked about, Tony, like, whatever gets us into that pattern, whatever gets us, like, authentically experiencing under our own volition, coming in the discipline of sitting before God in daily worship with that expression being pretty broad in its representation- Yeah

is to really include something of devotional time in the scriptures, memorization, metabolation, metabolizing. Metabolation, I'm just gonna make that up as, like- ... what happens when you, when you take the scripture and metabolize it into your own life. Meditating on it and, you know, again, maybe looking through the confessions and creeds that have shaped our distilled understanding of what the scripture teaches so that we're enhancing and edifying our mind.

We're also engaging the heart, and then we're engaging God and ourselves in communication with Him through prayer. I'm all for anything [00:13:00] that gets us into those rhythms, reminds us of the importance of them, and like we talked about last week, makes it so that when we think about what it means to be married to Christ, so to speak, it's not just about whipping out some kind of marriage certificate to prove that, but that we actually have a frame and a behavioral pattern that fits a married person, that- Yeah

how they act, how they think, how they behave, how they communicate, they're never too far away from their lovely spouse in some way or another. And so I think that these tools are great ways to get us exactly into that kind of mindset and practice.

Tony Arsenal: Yeah, absolutely. And like I said, like, I think- In our Reformed circles, we can, you know, we, we tend to be maybe a little eggheaded, and we, we tend to be a little more intellectual and, and a little more, I don't know, studious.

And there's nothing wrong with that. Um, but I think sometimes it can breed a sort of, uh, elitism and arrogance. Sure. Uh, this is a perfectly valid devotional tool. Yes. Mm-hmm. And, and I think, [00:14:00] you know, kinda like the old adage, like, well, what's the best translation of scripture? Well, whichever one you're gonna read.

Exactly. Like, what's the best devotional tool? Whichever one you're gonna use, whichever one's actually gonna bring you into the Word, uh, on a, on a regular basis. Um, and again, like, two verses of the scripture is two verses of the scripture that you might- Right ... not have other spent time, otherwise spent time reading.

And it really is short enough, and it saves your progress. Like, you can do, you can do the quote in the morning, and then you can check the scripture on the way to the, you know, the word work, on a stoplight or whatever. Um, if you have the, the paid subscription, you can listen to this stuff, you know, on the, the bus or whatever.

Um, so check it out. Glorify app, they have a ring they're making. It's in funding, I guess, if you wanna check it out, you can check that out too. I am neither affirming nor denying whatever this Glory ring is, Glorify ring. But, um, but yeah, the app is great. The, the app is free, and it's, it's worth even just checking out and adding once in a while to your day

Jesse Schwamb: The glory ring or the glorify ring sounds like almost too Tolkien, even for me

Tony Arsenal: Yeah.

Yeah. It's the one ring to rule all of your devotions. [00:15:00] Uh, and in the, and in the morning bind them. Jesse, save me from the trail I was about to go on, and, and I was gonna speak in the language of Mordor, I think, on accident. Uh, save us from this. What are you affirming or denying?

Jesse Schwamb: That's

Tony Arsenal: beautiful. Please tell me it's the language of Mordor.

Elvish AI and Music Pick

Jesse Schwamb: Uh, no, but can I just say at the risk of really taking us really far afield so early on, which is not necessarily off-brand for us, I have done this... I, I don't know if I should be ashamed by this or I should be excited by this. But- ... um, the Elvish tongue in the Tolkien universe-

Tony Arsenal: Oh, no. ...

Jesse Schwamb: is like, there's several...

If you're super nerdy, you'll know there's like several different kind of iterations or formulas of it, and there's no, like, official language like Klingon, but there ha- it has been studied, and basically, like, it's kind of like the Eugene Peterson of the language. Like, there's, like, just kind of a dynamic equivalent or an expression of words.

Anyway, all that to say- ... there's several languages that, uh, Microsoft Copilot will just not [00:16:00] translate because it says, like, "This one, this language doesn't actually exist. There's not enough for me to do anything." Let me tell you something. Tolkien Elvish is not one of those languages, and I actually built an agent, because I have a coworker who can, uh, who can appreciate all this stuff, that takes a text, translates it into this kind of academic high-level Elvish from Tolkien, and then translates it back to English.

That makes anything you're saying way better and far more poetic and just absolutely amazing. So if you wanna have some fun, go and do that with whatever your favorite AI model is. Anyway, that's free of charge. Real quick, my affirmation is more music. It just turns out I've found this band, and I've been listening to them a lot.

The band's name is Thronebreaker, which is just a phenomenal name, I think, for any group. Uh, it's amazing. Uh, th- this is... I'm gonna read you their description from Spotify. It just says, "Thronebreaker is Christian metalcore built for the bruised, the doubting, and the ones still fighting their way home." And what I've really been [00:17:00] loving about them is it is kind of like Wolves at the Gate adjacent.

It's really lovely music. It is melodic, so it's, there's not just that there's that kind of hard edge, but that is present in it. But, uh, the music is really lovely and beautiful, and in part that's because they're going through this, like, drip of releasing music where they're taking, like, old hymns or maybe songs if you're of a certain age like I am of kind of childhood Sunday school- And they're taking the lyrics, not the melody, and they're reimagining them.

So they have two versions of Jesus Loves Me that they just released. They have the old We're Gonna Cross, a song called Glory to the King Most High. These songs are just saturated with gospel. Like, they're just all power, all encouragement, and all authority represented in Jesus Christ. They're incredible, and I've j- where I've, what I've been really blessed by is these two versions of Jesus Love Me are just fantastic.

Like, they're orchestral. There is a children's kind of chorus at one point, and it got me [00:18:00] singing that song again, and really, maybe to what you were saying before, Tony, like sitting in those three words, which are really phenomenal words to hear. And so I have been surprised at how moved I've been by what really I, I first understood, of course, as a children's song with simple truth that seems, you know, depending on how long you've known some part of the gospel, obvious.

And yet I found them all new again, and a, a really lovely way of just sitting in the truth of God in music that I didn't expect to find. So if you're interested in any of that or maybe just curious of what it would sound like if a Christian metalcore band took Jesus Loves Me and turned it into their genre, then honestly you should just go check out Throne Breaker.

I mean, you pretty much have to at this point.

Tony Arsenal: I, I don't ever have anything to add to your musical affirmations or denials, 'cause I, I just don't. What I do have to add is that Throne Breaker actually sounds like some sort of really [00:19:00] amazing, like, mace-type weapon in Lord of the Rings. Yes.

Jesse Schwamb: Yes,

Tony Arsenal: it does. Or like a big hammer that a dwarf carries.

And I would also like to say that if you ask Google Gemini to translate something into Tolkien English, it not only will do it, it will tell you how to pronounce it.

Google Elf: A ava aini Ilai amel i trona se.

Tony Arsenal: What do you think that was, Jesse?

Jesse Schwamb: No idea.

Tony Arsenal: First of all, that was elevated Quenya, a Quenya. Yes.

Jesse Schwamb: Yes, that's

Tony Arsenal: the one.

Classic Quenya.

Jesse Schwamb: Yes.

Google Elf: A leta Ilai amel aima.

Tony Arsenal: I would be willing to bet... Actually, let's do this.

Jesse Schwamb: Ugh.

Tony Arsenal: Uh, we don't give out prizes very often. Uh, I will say to anyone who can tell me what that is, the first person that emails, uh, or, or goes into the Telegram chat, we'll do this. We'll be professional podcasters and drive people to one of our channels.

Here we

Jesse Schwamb: go.

Tony Arsenal: The first person who goes to our telephone, our Telegram chat and tells me what that [00:20:00] means, what that, uh, Elvish means, will get a Reformed Brotherhood T-shirt.

Jesse Schwamb: Oh, that is big.

Tony Arsenal: Yeah.

Jesse Schwamb: That-

Tony Arsenal: So I'm gonna, I'm gonna play it one more time.

Jesse Schwamb: Okay, here we go. Everybody listen. Every- All right, pull over. Stop your vehicles.

Here we go.

Google Elf: A leta Ilai amel aima.

Tony Arsenal: There it is, everybody.

Jesse Schwamb: I'm not being a cry- I have a guess, but I, I, I wanna try to win the T-shirt, so I'm gonna- Yes ... wi- withhold. All right. Uh, yeah, that's, that's super fun. Did it, um... Did you also translate it back into English from that

Tony Arsenal: just to see- No, I'll do that later, 'cause that would give away the, that would

Jesse Schwamb: give away the prize.

Yeah, it's, it's... We'll have to save that for next week, because that, that is the fun. It creates, like, what I was doing to, to have fun with this coworker is take very technical, like, work-related emails, and I would send it through. It would go through that iterative process, and I actually loved how it, it was talking.

Like, it wa- this was an email about risk, and it, it gave, like, these beautiful grand metaphors that didn't sound corny or cheesy. That's the beautiful thing. That's amazing. It [00:21:00] was like true Elvish. Like, you were just like, "I wish I spoke that way all the time about, about risk." And it, like I said, it wasn't just like...

You could, you could obviously throw something in and be like, "Make this Shakespearean," or, you know, "Make this, you know, sound like, you know, Milton." This is way better. This is way better, because it's not, like, actually trying to manipulate what you're saying. It's takes, like, the dynamic equivalent of what you said, then translates it back with way more kind of poetic infrastructure while maintaining, like, the essential meaning that you have.

I'm, I'm selling this too hard. Everybody just has to go out and try it. So, all right, you know what's at stake here, but here's how you have to win this. If you want a chance, if you want a chance at winning this, you gotta go to t.me/reformedbrotherhood, t.me/reformedbrotherhood, and that link will take you to the Telegram app and our little corner of it, and you're gonna find there's a bunch of chats there.

You gotta go to the affirmations or denials chat, and then you gotta put in what is the translation of what Tony just played.[00:22:00]

I just love... Isn't it amazing, though, that, like, y- as you discovered, there's more than one version of Elvish available? Yeah. And they do differentiate between the various kinds. This is a big deal. I learned there are actually scholars who have, like, again, filled in kind of like the details of the language- Oh, yeah

taking as a basis what Tolkien had there. Yeah. So I think that this is the best. We couldn't have conceived of this if we'd actually tried and planned for it, so-

Tony Arsenal: It's true ...

Jesse Schwamb: it's just better that it all happened in, in real time. It's true. And, and speaking of which, I think now we get to have the fun of figuring out, uh, where in Luke chapter 10 are we gonna begin?

Or should we just start in Luke 1 and just let's see how far we can get reading

Tony Arsenal: in this- I could have, I could have Google Gemini read it in elevated Kenya, Quenya I did try to get it to put it in Sindarin, and it wouldn't do it for some reason. I'm not sure. Maybe this anti-Sindarin bias in Gemini,

Jesse Schwamb: man.

Disappointing.

Tony Arsenal: It's disappointing.

Jesse Schwamb: Dis- disappointing. So let's kick off some Good Samaritan talk, which again, I think is gonna take us [00:23:00] through maybe in the next couple of conversations, in part because, like I said, we're not even gonna start at, uh, verse 25 because there is so much more that needs to be said, I think, before that.

Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. I, I think actually the proper place to start this, and I, I'm guessing Jesse probably, whether he was there or not, he probably figured out where I was going, uh, over the course of the last 20 minutes or whatever. Um, I actually think the proper place to start, at least one of the proper places to start, is in verse 21.

Yeah. Um, and I- we'll talk about why that is. And I'll... I'm gonna read here, um, 21, uh, through the end of the parable. Uh, and this is Jesus talking. He says in this, uh... Well, it, this is, um... Yes, uh, I'll just read it here. "In the same hour He rejoiced in the Holy Spirit and said, 'I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children.

Yes, Father, for such was Your gracious will. All things have been handed over to Me by My Father, and no one who knows who the Son is except... No, no one knows who the Son is [00:24:00] except the Father, or who the Father is except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal Himself.'" Then turning to the disciples, he said privately, "Blessed are the eyes that see what you see.

For I tell you that many prophets and kings desired to see what you see and did not see it, and hear what you hear and did not hear it." And behold, a lawyer stood up to put him to the test, saying, "Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" He said to him, "What is written in the Law? How do you read it?"

And he answered, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself." And he said to him, "You have answered correctly. Do this and you will live." But he, desiring to justify himself, said to Jesus, "And who is my neighbor?"

Jesus replied, "A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and he fell among robbers who stripped him and beat him and departed, leaving him half dead. Now by chance a priest was going down that road, and he saw him and passed on the other side. So likewise a Levite, [00:25:00] when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side.

But a Samaritan, as he journeyed, came to where he was, and when he saw him he had compassion. He went to him and bound up his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. And he set him on his own animal and brought him to an inn and took care of him. The next day he took out two denarii, gave them to the innkeeper, saying, 'Take good care of him.

Whatever you, whatever more you spend I will repay you when I come back.' Which of these three do you think proved to be a neighbor to the man who fell among the robbers?" And he said, "The one who showed him mercy." Jesus said to him, "You go and do likewise."

Jesse Schwamb: I think you're right, of course, to back us up into verse 21 because I don't want to keep saying it's always a setup, but Jesus is certainly giving us like the right context in which...

Well, Luke of course is the author here and as he's explaining the teaching of Jesus, he does so well to start out with some irony that we don't realize is gonna be ironic until we get to the, to verse 25 [00:26:00] when we realize who's testing Jesus, who's setting this all up. So this idea that the Holy Spirit, everybody rejoicing in the Holy Spirit and the knowledge and the wisdom, the intelligence that's revealed through the Holy Spirit to all of these lesser people and in particular here emblematic the infants That here we have kings and rulers, and in this case, this beloved scholar of the law, who all have this adventure in missing the point.

They think, in fact, they're looking for the one who is to set them free, and they can't even see that it's Him who is before him. And yet, incidentally, God has already revealed all these things to the lowest, to the ones who are the most humble, the meek, the mild, the down and outs, the ones who are weak by the view of everybody else.

And so it's amazing that if we just kinda, again, like blow past it into, like, just all the characters, we don't see that the teaching starts actually well above this, that even everything we're about to understand, that unfolds in our lives, ev- every spiritual incarnation and insight that we have [00:27:00] first starts with God himself in his revealing it to us both in his general revelation, but of course, in the specific revelation of his teaching.

So I like that you started us there, because I, I'm with you. That's where this whole thing launches off, right?

Tony Arsenal: Yeah.

Parables Reveal and Conceal

Tony Arsenal: Yeah, and as we come into when we very, like very start of this, uh, series, the, the parable series, Jesus sort of embeds a theology of parables into this introduction, right? Or I should say Luke does.

But this, uh, this is written a- as though all of this is occurring as sort of one event. Right. And likely it was, right? So sometimes, uh, in the Gospels, events are kind of, like, moved next to each other for thematic reasons. It's possible that that's the case. It seems like this may have actually just been one, one teaching, and I'll, I'll talk about why that is in a second here.

Um, but at the very least, this is placed next to each other in the Gospel almost as, like a, "Here's the theology of parables. Now, here's actually that happening in real [00:28:00] time."

Jesse Schwamb: Yes.

Tony Arsenal: And then also, like, a parable kinda demonstrating it, right? So the theology of the parable here is that there are many prophets, kings who desire to see what it is that, that, uh, uh, the disciples are seeing, right?

And all things have been handed over to the Father or to, to the Son, by the Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father. No one who knows who the Father is except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal, right? So the, the theology of parables here presented in Luke is that the parable itself is being used as a way to reveal the Father and the Son to those whom the Son chooses to reveal it to.

The Lawyer as the Fool

Tony Arsenal: And that leaves us with this lawyer, um, sort of playing, playing the fool in almost like a dramatic sense, right? In a lot of drama, there's kind of like the fool character who's sort of like the foil or the idiot of the thing who's, who's unaware and is almost like made an example of, right? Um, I, I can't think of any examples off the top of my head, but there's often a character in a play who's like, uh, it's [00:29:00] almost like the opposite of the everyman, right?

The everyman in a, in a play- Right ... or in a movie is sort of like the outsider who things gets explained to, and he's sort of the proxy for, for the audience. Um, I think like, um, Hawkeye in Avengers is kind of the everyman. He's sort of just like this regular dude swept up in this thing, and oftentimes he's the one that, uh, the big characters are explaining things to.

And really what that is is the big characters are explaining that to the audience through this proxy. There's also this concept of the fool in a lot of these plays or movies who's sort of like the dummy, the idiot of the play, who things are explained to, and it's still a way to explain it to the audience, but the character doesn't get it.

And so that's kind of, kind of the role that this lawyer is playing in this, this narrative here. He, he steps forward. He's like, "What must I do to inherit eternal life?" Jesus answers his question, and then in this like sort of like stunning moment of, like unawareness, he's trying to justify himself. He says, "Well, who is my neighbor?"[00:30:00]

As though that's a question that needed to be asked, right? I think, like, we sort of think of it as like, "Oh, yeah, that's a valid question." I actually don't think it is. Like, it's pretty obvious, in the Old Testament at least, who your neighbor is. It's the people who live immediately with you. It's the other people of Israel.

It's the people in your immediate concentric circles, the people you have direct access to. Um, and so then Jesus explains it through this parable, and whether or not he gets it at the end, I guess is maybe a little bit unclear. We can talk about that as we get there. But at least in the beginning, he's portrayed as this sort of, like, fool who doesn't understand what Jesus is saying, and then this parable is taught.

So it's this theology of, um, revelation to those whom it is intended to, and further obscuring from those it's intended not to, not to illuminate, which is identical. Uh, maybe it's a different flavor of the same thing, but it's the same thing as what Matthew had and what Jesus taught- Right ... in Matthew with the parables.

Jesse Schwamb: Right. It definitely is, again, illustrating, again, God's divine prerogative. I think you really have to do a lot of theological gymnastics [00:31:00] to try to work yourself out of a place here that says, like, "Well, this, this knowledge is accessible to all people."

Tony Arsenal: Right.

Jesse Schwamb: That if somehow we just work hard enough, study hard enough, come even before God with the right attitude or do the right things, that somehow all this will be made plain to us, and that's certainly not the truth here.

In fact, again, the ironic setup is you have this lawyer asking this question, which creates this strange contrast because here's a man trained in the law, and he approaches the very wisdom of God to test him while the little children already perceive what this fool cannot. So it's irony upon irony, and then I, I like what you're saying.

I think, and we'll get to this to anticipate a bit, I'm reading this as he's hoping that the answer to whom is my neighbor, just like he- he's received the affirmative from Jesus saying, "Yes, you understand. Go and do these things. This is life," and we'll get to all of what that means, I think, as well in terms of the covenant of works and the covenant of grace.

But I think he's hoping that the definition of neighbor is gonna mean that he has [00:32:00] already accomplished the thing then, so that if there's somehow- Yeah ... he could just set the right boundaries. He could say, "Ah, yeah, I'm already good then, Jesus. I already, already did all that stuff." So- It's wild to me that it, it all starts with, of course, like some kind of scribal specialist in the Torah, of course, likely some kind of Pharisee by theological alignment.

And as I'm looking at the notes here, what I find particularly stunning as we start this out is that Luke, of course, is able to speak several times in this parable to the intent. And so he says right away with great kind of fanfare and description that the intent here from this scribal Torah person was to test or to tempt, which is the same verb used of Satan's temptation of Christ and of Israel's testing of God in Deuteronomy 6, which of course Jesus is gonna quote here later on.

So it's not, of course, like sincere inquiry, like you're saying. It, it is like adversarial probing. It is like really profound setup. It is dripping with like [00:33:00] ulterior motive. It's seeking to expose Jesus as either like heterodox or as diminishing the law's demands. And I think we've talked about this before, so Tony, correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure in one of the previous parables we talked about sometimes how these get set up with this kind of weird like oxymoronic setting.

Inherit Eternal Life Debate

Jesse Schwamb: So like this question of se- uh, uh, itself, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?

Tony Arsenal: Yeah.

Jesse Schwamb: It's like more than just theologically revealing. Biblically it's self-contradictory, 'cause of course like we talked about inheritance, I think actually when we went through the, the parable of the prodigal. By definition, that's received, of course, on the ba- basis of relationship or promise.

It's not earned by performance. And if the inheritance comes by a law, it no longer comes by promise, right? I think that's like Galatians. So the lawyer's question already portray- portrays like some kind of weird works righteous paradigm. E- even if you think he's really after trying to understand the true intent of God's heart [00:34:00] behind the law, he is assuming at least in this question that eternal life is some kind of wage that he can earn rather than a gift to be received by grace through faith.

And that's a fundamental error that the entire subsequent exchange, including the parable, is designed to expose. It's both, like you're saying, Tony, he has not learned yet what it means to be in the kingdom of God. He's outside of that, and so he's trying... Now Jesus is bringing in this corrective action, as it were, set up in a story, but he's gonna turn the law on him, which, which I don't wanna get too excited about that yet.

But he's... But essentially, here we have somebody who's the expert in the law trying to leverage the law by way of force against the one who he does not understand has all leverage and authority over him, and is in fact the law giver himself So he's gonna, Jesus is gonna drive him to see his own ability to keep the law that he claims to honor, and that's more than just brilliant.

This is what the law does. You do not wanna pit the law against the one who has given the law, the [00:35:00] one whose character is represented in the law, because you're always going to get owned, and you'll get owned before you realize you've just gotten owned on multiple levels, and I think that's what basically unfolds here.

Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah, I, I have a little bit of a different take on the, the word inherit here. Um, I don't think what you're saying is wrong, um, but I think there's a little different flavor here, and actually, I, I think it, it still sort of propels us forward to the conversation we have to have, um, about the law and the gospel and the covenant of works, the covenant of grace.

The, the Greek that lays under this word is, uh, it's a compound word of the word for, like, lot or portion and the word for law. And so, so the, this force of the word is more along the lines of, like, what shall I do to have a legal right to eternal life? Like- Right ... inherit, I think we hear inherit, and we think of, like, um, like what you get when someone dies, and so, like, obviously there's nothing you do to earn it, and that's certainly an element of the way this [00:36:00] word is used in some instances.

I think reading this and kind of how, how the rest of the text plays out, this lawyer is coming forward and he's like, "What do I need to do to have a rightful legal claim to eternal life?" Right? We might even be able, and this is where it comes into the covenant of grace, covenant of works k- kind of paradigm.

We might even be able to say that what this lawyer or this person comes forward to ask Jesus is, how do I gain, how do I gain the benefits of the covenant of works, right?

Jesse Schwamb: Right.

Tony Arsenal: Yep. That's language that was developed later that's not, not, like, biblical language in terms of, like, the actual language within the text, but that's the force of what he's saying.

What must I do to be a rightful legal... Uh, what must I do to have a rightful legal claim on all of the blessings of the covenant of works, is really the question that's here. And so Jesus' answer is so instructive- Right ... 'cause what he says is, "Well, what's written in the law?" Like, he, he basically says, like, "Well, you should be able to tell me, teacher- Exactly

of [00:37:00] the law, like, what, what needs to happen there." And there's an assumption on Christ's part that, like, there is an answer. I think sometimes, sometimes we, we, uh, we make an error in thinking that the covenant of works was never attainable, that it's somehow this, like, um, it's almost like a black box. Like, nobody could know what we have to do to, like, obtain eternal life.

That's absolutely not the assumption Jesus makes. Jesus not only knows that there's an answer, it's such a straightforward answer that he expects this scribe to be able to answer it, right? And the scribe can, right? The scribe says, "Well, you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, your soul, your mind, your strength, and your neighbor as yourself," right?

The summary of the law. Just good old classic Westminster larger, shorter catechism. Where's the law summarily comprehended? Summarily comprehended in the Ten Commandments. And then, then again, I don't know the questions exactly, but then it also, like, says, like, "Where does Christ summarize this?" Well, you should love the Lord your God, and you should love your [00:38:00] neighbor as yourself, right?

Covenant Works and Grace

Tony Arsenal: So the, the lawyer comes forward and says, "What do I need to do to have a legal right to all of the blessings of the covenant of works?" Christ says, "Well, what do you think?" He says, "Well, you obey the entirety of the law." And he says, "You've answered correctly. Do this. Obey the entirety of the law and you will live."

So the parable itself doesn't necessarily speak to this law, gospel, covenant of works, covenant of grace paradigm. The, the parable is used to show that not only does this lawyer know what is required of him, but that he won't do it.

Jesse Schwamb: Right.

Tony Arsenal: And I think that's really key, because even in the parable, within the parable itself, there are these figures that know what they should do, right?

I, I think, um, we'll get into it, but there's a lot of ink spilled on almost like, um, explaining [00:39:00] why the priest and the Phar- phar- and the, the Levite almost like did the right thing by going to the other side of the room, and it points to like, well, their priestly and Levitical responsibilities, if they touch a dead body, like they can't do those things, and those things are so important.

Like, there's a lot of ink spilled trying to almost explain why what they did is right, when the point of the parable is that actually we all know what the right thing to do in that sense was. And even the most righteous people in the mind of the hearers, the Levites and the priests, the most righteous people, even they don't do what they're supposed to do.

Jesse Schwamb: Right.

Tony Arsenal: This, this paradigm, this gospel law paradigm, law gospel paradigm, this covenant of works, covenant of grace paradigm, is so baked into the very like fabric of, of human thought that it's just there. And Christ takes this time to point out to this lawyer, like, "You know what's expected of you." And so that's why the phrase desiring to justify himself is so key [00:40:00] here.

I actually think that the, the, the I don't wanna go so far as to say, like, that this person was regenerated in the midst of this conversation, 'cause I don't know that. But I actually think that there's a forward movement of this lawyer as he interacts with Christ that is optimistic. I'm optimistic about it, right?

Right. He starts out trying to test Jesus, then he star- then he moves to having a desire to justify himself. I think we hear that, we read that, desiring to justify himself, we automatically think that that's a negative thing. But if we think about justifying himself in terms of what he's talking about, how do I fulfill the obligations of the covenant of works, that's not a bad thing to wanna do.

Right. It's not bad to wanna obey God's law and to lay claim to His promises. It's a misguided notion of something we can't accomplish, but in itself, desiring to justify himself is to desire to fulfill the obligations of the covenant of works. That's not necessarily a bad thing. And so I think this is a merciful, a merciful [00:41:00] teaching on Christ's part.

He's trying to instruct this guy to say, "Look, you can't do it. And even if you could do it, you wouldn't do it. So let's, let's talk about mercy instead and what that looks like." And that's where we get to kind of the end of the, uh, the end of the parable.

Jesse Schwamb: And again, we have to remember that we know that the intent here is actually to test or try Jesus, so He's certainly being merciful by using this opportunity not to just put him on blast, but to actually provide true instruction.

And of course, like, that was, to some degree, this turning the question back would've been, like, a rabbinic pedagogical technique, but theologically, this is what floors me, is from the jump, Jesus refuses to let this man treat Him merely as one more voice among competing rabbis. Yeah. Instead, He holds that lawyer to the standard of God's own revealed word by, like you said, asking not just what does it say, but how do you read it?

Mm-hmm. He's pressing not just for, like, some kind of recitation, but for the lawyer's own understanding and application, and Jesus is gonna hold him [00:42:00] accountable to his own hermeneutic. So by, by the time we get the answer, we know as readers, and all those present would've understood, he already knows the right answer, and he's not ignorant to God's requirements.

He already summarizes the whole moral law correctly, encompassing both tables of the Decalogue. And so I think that does lead us then to this statement that we probably should spend a little time on, like, do this and you will live, like you introduced for us. Like, what does that even mean? Because i- it's not, like, in my view It's not like a Pelagian or Arminian concession that law keeping actually saves.

I mean, it is the covenant of works principle stated truly inexorably that the law as law does promise life to perfect obedience. But that's the exact problem. I, I like what you said that it's not as if we can't understand what it would be to comprehend or contemplate this perfect law and what it means to fall under the covenant of works.

It's just that he also presents for us at the same time this covenant of grace in which life is [00:43:00] granted freely through faith in the mediator who alone fulfills all of these laws' demands. So it's wild in this back and forth that's happening here where it's... I don't even know if it's fair to say this is like the most incredible subtext ever.

I'm imagining trying to process this in real time and realizing everything that's being said, not just listening to what's being said and like the technical answers going back and forth. But I think like you said, that the Spirit even here is at work, I would like to believe, in the life and at the heart and the mind of this lawyer who's bringing forward this question with nefarious intent first to test and to undermine, and then is being drawn in almost inexorably into this debate to more profound understanding about a covenant based on works that cannot be accomplished, uh, in perfect obedience except through the mediator who organizes and distributes liberally this covenant of grace to his children for whom he has accomplished at least passively and then actively in his obedience in life and death.

And so Jesus' reply is, I [00:44:00] think, thus a very genuine like if that functions to expose an impossibility. I, I don't think he's teaching salvation by works here, of course. He is holding out the law's own terms so that the lawyer and everybody else listening, and even us as well, can discover through this narrative which is about to happen the impossibility of self-produced righteousness, which again is what this gentleman is theologically all about.

He's trying to justify himself. And that is precisely the pedagogical strategy like Paul uses later when he systemizes all of this by saying that the law was our guardian or school master until Christ came in order that we might be justified by faith. I think- Yeah ... and it's only because God is good to us and we might sit in some of this teaching, I think this is all in play.

So, so I ask you, like, have I gone too far with all this? Like, how much do you think in the real time was being processed? And maybe that's a horrible question to ask because we know the Spirit does this work of illumination and enlightenment, and we're on the other [00:45:00] side of this and have this time to sit and to kind of parse and to really kind of just be pickled in all of this.

But there's so much happening here, right?

Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. Uh, maybe I'll answer the question a, a little bit of a different way. I think, um- We often can think about Old Testament religion, if we wanna kinda call it that. We think about Old Testament religion as though it was totally uniform and, um, entirely legalistic.

Right. Uh, my- the, the listener is gonna panic a little bit when I say this, so please don't freak out, but I, I think N.T. Wright, uh, and some of the new perspective on Paul stuff is a, a little bit helpful in this, in that it gives us a foil to sorta push against. Yes. The new perspective on Paul is this idea that, um- Paul was not saying that Judaism was legalistic and Christianity is a grace-based religion, right?

He, m- [00:46:00] um, N- NPP is not, is saying, um, Paul was not correcting New or Old Testament religion. And where they go wrong is that they say that Paul actually retains this concept of covenantal faithfulness, covenantal nomism fidelity. Uh, where I think, where I think they're right is that this idea that, like, the Old Testament religion is entirely legalistic and Paul was just sort of correcting that, I think that's way too simplistic.

And the reason I say that is that the Mosaic Covenant for, you know, w- and predominantly this podcast is coming from a sort of Westminster Confession of Faith Presbyterian perspective, give or take, right? The, the broad Reformed tradition would say that the, the Mosaic, uh, covenant, the Davidic Covenant, all of the covenants of the Old Testament, and we can break them up in all sorts of different ways, but all of the covenants of the Old Testament, [00:47:00] um, with maybe the exception of the Noahic Covenant, and there's some debate about that, all of those are

They're not just, like, supporting structures for the covenant of grace, but they actually are the covenant of grace in various administrations. If that's true, and of course we believe that it is, if that's true, then the people of those covenants understood that on some level. Right. Right? So to think that, like, people under the administration of the covenant of grace somehow thought that they were operating under a legalistic framework doesn't make any sense.

Jesse Schwamb: Yeah,

Tony Arsenal: that's true. So, so where I think that applies here is I think this person coming forward, it's not as though the concept of the covenant of grace... Again, that's language that we would develop later, but the concept that God graciously saves His people by the counsel of His own will, apart from their works of righteousness, apart from their meritorious effort, that God [00:48:00] simply extends His grace and conveys the cov- the blessings of the covenant of works to those who trust in the mediator, those who trust in the one to come, the, the forthcoming serpent-crushing seed, right, if you wanna use- Right

language from Genesis 3. The, the idea that God simply graciously conveys the blessings of the covenant of works to those people Um, that's not something that's alien to the Old Testament, right? It's not alien to the, even to the Mosaic economy. The most law-based of all of the Old Testament, um, covenants, even that starts with the concept that these people are God's people who he redeemed out of Egypt, right?

Right. The redemption out of Egypt comes before the giving of the law, and the giving of the law is a result of the redemption out of Egypt. So to think that this lawyer comes forward, and again, this had been sort of corrupted and distorted and had become a very works-based, uh, [00:49:00] meritorious-based understanding.

But the idea that this framework of a covenant of grace is totally alien to this guy just doesn't, it just doesn't, I think it doesn't play. And so I think rather than us read this as I think sometimes we do, of Christ as kind of like giving this guy, trying to give this guy an entirely new paradigm, or like the rich young ruler is very much a parallel kind of situation.

We read this, this guy comes forward, he's like, "What do I gotta do to earn eternal life?" Christ is like, kinda basically says like, "Well, you dum-dum, you can't. And I'm gonna demonstrate for you that you can't by- Right ... taking sort of like this situation that you can't possibly believe that you fulfilled and telling you to fulfill it."

That's the outcome of this. We'll get to that when we get to the end of the parable. Um, he's not trying to give them a new paradigm. He's trying, in my opinion, he's trying to sort of reorient them back to the true paradigm of grace that is present under all of the Old Covenant administrations. So it's not so much a matter of like [00:50:00] developing a new framework and impli- like imposing this new framework on this guy.

It's really trying to say like, "Listen- Think about this for a second, dude. Think about this, right? Think about the fact that, yes, you know you have to love the Lord your God with your whole heart, your whole soul, your whole strength, your whole mind, and you have to love your neighbor as yourself, right?

You've answered correctly. If you can do those things, you will live. With the subtext, which I think is what you're getting at, the subtext of, like, and of course you cannot possibly do those things. Right. Right. So what's the alternative, my friend? The alternative is not justifying yourself by somehow identifying who the person is that you have to love the most.

The, the, the, um, the... Well, we'll get this when we get to the parable itself, but the, the alternative is... This will be interesting, 'cause I'm not sure that we... I don't know where you are on this, but, um, the alternative is that there's someone out there who shows us mercy. [00:51:00] Right. There's someone out there who takes care of our need despite our total inability to do so.

Jesse Schwamb: That's right.

Tony Arsenal: That's the alternative to the covenant of works, is the covenant of grace. I m- maybe I'm, like, hinting at it too much, so I'll just say it. Like, Jesus is the Good Samaritan, right? Like, there's something for us to learn about our own justification here and our own- Right ... like, um, our own need to be merciful, to treat people as our neighbors.

But just like we talked about when we talked about, like, what does the least of these mean, this parable, uh, I'm totally, like, burying the lede for next, next week, but that's fine. This parable is not primarily about us figuring out how to do mercy ministry. Right. Like, that's important. It's probably an outcome of this.

It's probably something for us to think about. But really, this is actually Christ saying, like, "Hold on a second here, dude." Like, "Let's just think about this." Do you need someone who is going to tell you to pick yourself up off your bootstraps and cross to the other side of the street and leave you to [00:52:00] your own devices?

Or do you need someone who's gonna throw you on their donkey, who's gonna bind up your wounds, who's gonna pay the innkeeper, and is gonna pledge to play- pay everything that is owed for your salvation? Right? That's not too on the nose here, I think. Right. And, and I really look forward to, like, unpacking that, although maybe we don't need to now, but I think, like, this parable is so much more about how salvation works than it is about, like, what it means to have a good neighbor and to be a good neighbor.

I think we get bogged down in that, and I just am really excited to talk more about, like, what I think this parable actually gets at.

Jesse Schwamb: I agree, and it's happening in the context, like we said, again, of animosity. It's not just as if this gentleman came forward with the best of intentions, altruistically saying, "I just really wanna understand how to do mercy ministry really, really well so I can follow God the Father."

It happens in the context of testing, of enmity, more or less, and yet here's the kindness of Jesus even to instruct against that without coming quickly with judgment, but [00:53:00] in a more direct way, searching the heart. And so I think you're right. I mean, Luke is not being accidental here. He's characterizing, of course, the lawyer's entire project as an attempt at self-justification, and the fundamental posture of the gospel exposes and overturns.

That's really what Jesus is leading us into as we're about to get into this, which we'll, we'll gauge into all those verses in the next conversation. But having been told, like, the law's true demand and its true terms, the lawyer, I think, does sense his exposure, and he instinctively then seeks to narrow the command's scope rather than repent of his inability to keep it, and that's what then leads- Yeah

into this whole parable teaching. It's that whole question of, "Well, then who is my neighbor?" I think it is important for us to, to just kinda sit in that a second because really he's... I think, in my view as I'm reading this, he's looking for a legal, a legal loophole of some kind. I really do think it's a definition of neighbor that he hopes will be narrow enough that he might plausibly claim to have fulfilled the command already, and thereby [00:54:00] that is the very thing that Luke says explains why he's trying to justify himself.

Here's what I would say in closing up, like- Yeah ... that particular verse, and the thing that maybe we can use as a launching point for next time. But there is something in this that I think is, like, a dramatic warning, at least as I'm reading it in this exchange just over this question of, who is my neighbor?

And to me, the reason why this is, like, so striking and so just grabs my attention is because it seems to me there's, like, a huge anthropological point being made. At least, that is the way I'm understanding this, and that point is something like it's a striking case study in this idea of total depravity and the noetic effects of sin.

And here's what I mean by that, is- Here you have this guy who is trained in all the right ways, should have all of this deep and profound knowledge of all of the details, and probably, of course, spent most of his life, however much that was, studying all of these things to such a, a finite degree that he'd understand all of the principles at play here and all the cross-referencing of those [00:55:00] principles to an exceptionally deep level.

And even a man with accurate theological knowledge, which Jesus has affirmed, instinctively deploys that knowledge in service of self-justification rather than repentance the moment he senses conviction And I do sometimes get worried in my own life and sometimes just generally as we s- as you said, Tony, in Reformed circles, that we can sometimes have a tendency to do that.

We get caught up in the wrong things. We love our argument. We have high conviction about the things that we think we understand exceptionally well, and we wanna levy all of that knowledge and experience and words that we have to describe that when it may be that there's a moment where what we need to do when we sense conviction about something is not to double down on any kind of self-justification.

Especially if, like you're saying, Tony, has not led us to repentance or to exhibit and put into practice the very theology that we preach, but instead pushes us in a direction where we just take that knowledge and we actually use that accurate [00:56:00] theological knowledge in service of self. That is, I think, a warning that is behind some of this conversation here, and it illustrates, I think, the Reformed insight that the fundamental human problem is not primarily ignorance, but it is the will's bondage and the heart's self-love.

It's a problem no amount of correct discipline or doctrine alone can fix apart from some kind of regenerating grace, which is exactly what Jesus is going to illustrate for us in the mercy that he's about to display in this parable.

Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah.

Good Samaritan Teaser and Wrap

Tony Arsenal: Maybe as a little teaser for next week, I think this is yet another example where Christ answers the question that is immediately posed to him, right?

Mm-hmm. The question is, who is my neighbor? The answer is, like, your neighbor is whoever's in front of you, right? The better neighbor is the one who, who showed mercy. And but then on top of that, he's kind of pushing past that to be like- Yes ... the [00:57:00] question you're asking is, is about A, but I'm gonna answer yes.

I'm gonna answer your question, but I'm gonna push you so far past that that we, we, we need to see this on a kind of like the dual levels or the, the triple levels that Christ presents. So I th- I think your, uh, obviously your assessment that this was gonna extend into a second week was apt. I think we're probably looking at at least three-

because w- we need to explain the parable, but then there's so much that comes- Yeah ... that comes out of that, of what that means, not just for... Like I said, I know, like, sometimes I can look at these and I can get a little bit too on the, like, this isn't about mercy ministry. Like-

Jesse Schwamb: Right ...

Tony Arsenal: it is about mercy ministry, right?

Like, Christ is talking about the idea that, like, the one, the, the good neighbor is the one who is the one who takes care of those who are in need in their presence, right? But there's a second and maybe a third level of this beyond just like take care of the person who's [00:58:00] injured that you come across on the way to work, right?

This isn't just saying if you see someone stranded on the side of the road who's trying to change their tire and you don't have a compelling reason that you can't stop, go ahead and do it. Like, that's a, that's a obvious takeaway. Like, yeah, if someone is in need, take care of their need. There's multiple levels beyond that that we need to unpack that I do think, I think we can go too far, right?

Yes. We can get all tied up in like oil and wine, oil and wine. Yes. Like- Right ... I actually think there's something there we need to unpack.

Jesse Schwamb: Right.

Tony Arsenal: Maybe not what the Patristics thought was there, maybe. Right. I don't know.

Jesse Schwamb: Right.

Tony Arsenal: But like there's multiple levels to this parable that we need to unpack that I think a surface level read of this as strictly like your neighbor is the person closest to you, take care of the people around you, that's a true principle, but that's like scraping the bare surface of this parable when there's multiple layers and depths for us to get at.

So I'm super excited. This could be like a I don't know. [00:59:00] This could be its own multi-week long series or multi- For sure ... month long series in its own. We're probably not going to do that, although who knows? Uh, the Lord knows. But, um, but we do wanna spend the time that this parable deserves. I call it one of the big daddy parables for a reason.

There's so much here, and that's part of the reason why this parable, and I would say along with, like, the Prodigal Son, this parable has worked its way not only into the Christian mindset, but into, like, the very basics of, like, the English language of what it means to be a good neighbor and someone who takes care of those who need something.

It's called the Good Samaritan. Right. So this, this parable is so, like, culturally foundational in the West. It's so, so central to what it means to be a, a generous, charitable, mercy-driven Christian. And it's also, as I alluded to before, like, it is a almost like a t- [01:00:00] typological parable pointing to the fact that Christ is the ultimate Good Samaritan.

All of those things are things we're gonna need to unpack to really give this parable justice. So I don't know, seven, eight episodes. Uh, the next 500 episodes. I don't know how many it's gonna be. Buckle. But buckle up, because it's gonna be good, and I'm excited for it.

Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, strap in. It's a, it's a BDP for sure, and I hope that people don't think that we just belabor these.

We're really not trying. It's not like we need to try to squeeze, like, multiple episodes out of these. Yeah. And you might be listening thinking, "Just get on with it already." I think, and I don't wanna speak for you, Tony, but what I've been discovering as we've gone through these and, and discuss these, is we've talked of course about taking the time, about the low and slow crockpot approach.

All that stuff is true. It's just, I think equally what's important is what you've kind of led us to here, which is because of all of the things happening around this, because of not just the setup and not just the context, but the enormity of what's being asked of Jesus, of, like, what... Again, Luke gives us, not in [01:01:00] an accidental kind of way, but in a direct way, understand the intent that we should realize that this story is a lot more than just, like, help people who are hurting or help those who are down and out.

Yes, of course. At the same time, I think Jesus is using that as a way to explain something profoundly theological, profoundly important about the Father's character, profoundly abo- important about his, his own mission, which is for all people, all nations, all tribes, all tongues. And so I think it is important to kind of take our time getting into that, because it just seems that I think, I, I think we would be remiss and we would not feel like we've kept a good and clear conscience ourselves if we didn't take time to discuss all those things, like, with each other.

And so we want to spend time really wading into, not, like, all the intricate details and the wordplays and the, the textual criticisms just for their own sake, but because we do believe, even before we get to the characters here, [01:02:00] that there's something for us already, and that there's something deep and moving that we ought to be considering before we're caught and swept up into the drama that Jesus is about to unfold.

And in fact, that that drama is w- made way more rich, that we find that its depth is further than we could have considered before if we would pause right here and really try to understand what is happening. Why is this, this lawyer asking these things? And what is Jesus actually saying to him by forcing him to reevaluate the own law that he brings forward?

And then again, uh, for ourselves, do we ever do the same type of thing? So there is a lot to consider, and that's why we never probably get as far as we think we're going to get. But aren't all good conversations like that? When you get to talk to somebody that you love, and I certainly love Tony, I love the scriptures, love talking.

Isn't it always one of those things where you think you're gonna sit down, and you look at your watch, and you think, "How, how long has it been?" And you find it's been an hour when you thought it was only 20 minutes. It's been two hours when you thought you only had an hour to [01:03:00] spend. That's just how it goes.

And so we're giving you the real thing here. It just, it so happens that you're joining us somewhere in the world via your phone- ... or your headset, but you're part of this conversation. So real quick, Tony, to emphasize again, if you either, one, want to win a T-shirt, or two, and even more so, the real prize is just coming, meeting other brothers and sisters who are hanging out with us.

How can people go do that? One last time.

Tony Arsenal: Yeah. We have a little corner of the internet that we've carved out on a messaging app called Telegram, which is used for all sorts of things. But we use it as a place to hang out and do prayer requests, and taste new foods, and take videos of our do- ourselves doing that.

That's right. Um, you can go to t.me/reformedbrotherhood, and that will take you either to a location to download the app if you don't have it, or if you already have it, it'll jump you straight into our channel. You can look around and see everything. There's no hidden channels. There's nothing you can't see just looking.

Um, but if you wanna take the plunge and join, we would love to have you. [01:04:00] Um, I've said this before, and I, I stand by it 100%, I think it's probably the friendliest, most charitable corner of the internet in the reformed world. Um, I think there are plenty of, of sort of digital gathering places, and they all serve their own sort of unique purpose.

Our, our little corner of the world is a place where people are kind to each other. Uh- Yes ... we pray for each other. Um, more than once, things have gotten heated, and the community has just voluntarily said, "This conversation is not worth us making each other into enemies, so we're just gonna move on. We're just gonna move on to something else."

Um, there's a channel that is dedicated to baptism discussions. That's specifically called Charitable Baptism Discussions, and, uh, it really is that. So if that's something you're interested in, why wouldn't you be interested? Let's be honest. Like- Why not? ... why wouldn't you wanna hang out with other reformed Christians who are kind and gracious and exemplify the fruit of the spirit?

Um, just go [01:05:00] to t.me/reformedbrotherhood. And if you can figure out what that weird, uh, Quenya phrase that I played on my phone was, uh, if you're the first person to mention it, you'll get a T-shirt. Uh- There you go ... and speaking of T-shirts, if you don't win the prize and you still want a T-shirt- ... you can go to, uh, reformedbrotherhood.com.

There's a link to our merch store. There's T-shirts. There's some other stuff up there. Uh, there's very little overhead on any of that, but any overhead there is... Or not overhead. There's very little margin on any of that, but any margin that there is on that goes to support the show. Yes. Uh, it's not a lot, but if you're looking for some gear, uh, you wanna have our faces emblazoned on your chest for some reason, uh, you can go pick up a T-shirt there if you haven't won it, uh, or you can just be the fastest person to figure out what that was and win the prize.

Jesse Schwamb: Well, everyone, loved ones, you know what's coming up, and Lord willing, if, uh, the Son of God tarries longer and he allows us a little bit more time, you know where we'll be. [01:06:00] We'll be right here next time, and we'll be finishing out... Well, let's not get ahead of ourselves. We'll be talking about the rest- ... of this parable.

But until we all come back together again, listen, honor everyone.

Tony Arsenal: Love that brotherhood.

In episode 501, Tony Arsenal and Jesse Schwamb dig into the parable of the watchful doorkeeper in Mark 13:32–37 — four tightly packed verses that Jesus uses to call his servants to alertness before his return. But this isn't a passage about spiritual caffeine and white-knuckling your way through the Christian life. Tony and Jesse unpack what "stay awake" actually means through the lens of Reformed theology: active, differentiated stewardship in the ordinary means of grace, faithful vocation in every sphere of life, and a corporate ecclesial readiness that belongs to the whole church, not just the individual. This episode reorients the familiar language of watchfulness away from anxiety and date-setting toward the sturdy, quiet confidence of a believer who knows who they are, whose house they serve in, and why that identity drives everything.

Key Takeaways

• "Stay awake" is a command about identity, not performance. The doorkeeper doesn't do what he does to become the doorkeeper — he's already the doorkeeper. Christians are watchful because of who they already are in Christ, not to earn or secure that status.
• Vocation is not optional waiting — it's active, differentiated stewardship. Christ's ascension corresponds to the master's departure, and the interim period is characterized by each servant being given his own work, reflecting Calvin's doctrine of vocation and the Reformed insistence that the Christian life between the ascension and the Parousia is not passive.
• Watchfulness is corporate, not merely individual. The church, as the pillar and buttress of truth, is called to a collective readiness. In Presbyterian polity, every act of a valid church jurisdiction is an act of the whole church — meaning each member has a genuine stake in the faithfulness of the whole body.
• The ordinary means of grace are the means of watchfulness. Prayer, the Word, the sacraments, fellowship, and sitting under preaching are not supplementary to vigilance — they are the very instruments by which God preserves and prepares his people.
• Two errors must be avoided: speculative date-setting and practical indifference. Uncertainty about the hour of Christ's return is neither an invitation to calculate nor an excuse for carelessness. It is the very grounds for sustained, ordinary faithfulness.
• The warnings of Scripture are themselves a means of grace. Following Westminster Confession of Faith 17, the sobering warning of verse 36 is not a threat to the elect's final security but a pastoral instrument by which God preserves his people in living, active faith.
• The rooster-crowing language of Mark 13 anticipates the Passion narrative. The clustering of watchfulness, the night watches, and the crowing rooster in this chapter echoes the Garden of Gethsemane and Peter's denial — a connection particularly resonant given Mark's traditional association with Peter's testimony.

Explanatory Paragraphs Vocation and the Active Interim

One of the most theologically rich observations in this episode is the way Jesse frames the master's departure as corresponding directly to the ascension of Christ. The key phrase in verse 34 — "each one his task" — is not incidental detail. It reflects the Reformed doctrine of vocation at full strength: every believer, in every sphere of influence, has been given particular work to do on behalf of the Lord during Christ's bodily absence. This is not a passive waiting room existence. It is an active, differentiated stewardship that is deeply personal and yet accountable to the master who owns the whole house. The ascension does not mean abandonment, and the parable makes that clear by the fact that the servants are left in charge — trusted, commissioned, and expected to be about their work when the master returns.

The Church's Corporate Readiness

A standout contribution of this episode is Tony's move from the individual to the ecclesial. Drawing directly from OPC Book of Church Order, Chapter 3, he argues that church power is not vested in officers alone but in the whole body of believers. This means that when any legitimate church jurisdiction acts — whether in discipline, instruction, or governance — it is the whole church acting. The parable's doorkeeper is therefore not just a figure for personal piety; he is a figure for the corporate watchfulness that belongs to every member of the household. Tony's point is that a Christian who is disconnected from his local church, indifferent to what is being taught and decided elsewhere in the visible church, is not simply failing at individual holiness — he is failing to be awake in the fullest sense the parable intends.

The Ordinary Means of Grace as Watchfulness Itself

Perhaps the most pastorally stabilizing insight of the episode is Jesse's observation that watchfulness is not some extraordinary spiritual heroism layered on top of normal Christian life — it is normal Christian life. The ordinary means of grace are ordinary precisely because they are the regular, appointed instruments through which God delivers his grace to his people. Prayer, the Word, the sacraments, and fellowship are not preparatory disciplines that get you ready for the real work of being watchful. They are the work. Tony reinforces this by noting that a person who persistently refuses the ordinary means of grace is not simply being unwise — they are declining the offer of God's grace, which is a far more serious matter than mere spiritual lethargy.

Memorable Quotes

The doorkeeper doesn't do what he does to become the doorkeeper in this parable. He's already the doorkeeper, and the fact that he's the doorkeeper explains why he's given certain responsibilities and certain commands. That's the way it is for us as Christians. - Tony Arsenal

The warnings of Scripture are themselves among the ordinary means by which God preserves His people... the sobering possibility of being found asleep functions pastorally not to threaten the loss of the elect, but to press home the seriousness of watchfulness as the fruit and evidence of genuine faith." - Jesse Schwamb

When I go into a patient encounter at the hospital, or when I pull up to a red light, or when I order a sandwich at McDonald's and they get it wrong — I bring with me the fact that I am a Christian, the fact that I am a servant of Christ, that I am a doorkeeper in the house of the living God. - Tony Arsenal

Full Transcript

Jesse Schwamb: [00:01:00] Welcome to episode 501 of The Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse.

Tony Arsenal: And I'm Tony, and this is the podcast with ears to hear.

Hey, brother.

Jesse Schwamb: Hey, brother. Well, we've got some more kingdom teaching on tap right from the mouth of Jesus. We're going through all the parables, if you haven't been tracking with us so far, and we're finding ourselves in Mark chapter 13. And as J- only Jesus can do, packs four verses with all kinds of rich, robust theology, and it's all in this kind of strange setting, actually.

A guy heads out of town. He hands his servants the keys. He tells the doorman, "Hey, watch the place," with the same kind of e- enigmatic and vague energy that I imagine, like, your cable internet provider gives you when they give you an arrival time between now and Friday. And then Jesus lists literally, like, every possible hour He might show up, evening, midnight, rooster clock, dawn.

And all of this is for His glory and for our benefits. [00:02:00] And we're gonna somehow try to see if we can take all of these four verses, which are so jam-packed, and fit them into our conversation. That's our challenge, and it's gonna be yours to listen to. So welcome to this episode.

Affirm or Deny Segment

Jesse Schwamb: But before we do all of that, it is everybody's favorite time.

Well, except for Wicked Scriptures. That is really everybody's favorite time. Second favorite time is where we find something in our lives, Tony, that we either affirm with because it's awesome, it's exciting, want everybody to know about it, or conversely, we deny against something because it's just not that great.

We don't like it. Don't waste your time with it. So everybody longs to know, in this conversation, are you affirming with or denying against?

Tony Affirms Psalm Music

Tony Arsenal: I'm affirming something tonight. Uh, the listener might remember, I don't know, maybe a month and a half back, I affirmed a particular setting of Psalm 63 in the Trinity Psalter Hymnal.

And as I was kind of, you know, looking around for, I wanted to find a track to sort of maybe add to the end of the episode just to sort of, [00:03:00] like, put a point on that. I stumbled on, um, a song, singer, I don't know if you'd call him a songwriter, 'cause he's mostly just writing song- psalms. But he's, he's arranging them.

He's, you know, writing the guitar line for it or whatever. Uh, his name is Matthew David Montgomery. Uh, I don't know that you would know him from anywhere, but he's on, um- Apple Music, YouTube, Spotify, wherever. Uh, he does an arrangement of O God Show Mercy to Us, which is Psalm 63, uh, setting A, I believe, in the Trinity Psalter hymnal.

But, um, it's, it's in other hymnals, other psalters, uh, under the same name with the same tune. Uh, he has a beautiful singing voice. He does a lot of, uh, what's typically called, like, finger style, uh, guitar picking, uh, which is just very melodious and very gentle and soft. Um, it would be a great addition to, like, your morning devotional time to just, like, pick a psalm that he sings, that he's, he's recorded.

Um, you can get most of his stuff for free on, uh, YouTube, or again, if you have Apple [00:04:00] Music or Spotify, it's available there. Uh, again, his name is Matthew David Montgomery, and he's got several, uh, several albums. He has ones that specifically is psalms called Psalms for Singing. Um, and then he has a couple finger style hymn songs, uh, hymn albums that are like, you know, like I don't know, more modern hymns, He Will Hold Me Fast, Only Holy God- Right

kinda like Getty, um, Getty-style and City Alight songs, those kinds of sort of that complex of modern hymnody. Um, but he's excellent, and it's excellent theologically rich sound music. Um, I haven't listened to everything, but he seems like he's in kind of that, uh, sort of vein of worship music production producer peoples, um, that are just putting out good, accessible music.

I know, like, a lot of small churches, uh, have in the past have had to resort to using tracks like this actually to sort of lead their vocal music. Um, that would be something to think [00:05:00] about. It's simple. It's arranged in a straightforward fashion. Many times it's arranged according to the psalters, which are by, almost by definition are designed for congregational singing.

So it's good. It's great. Use it for family worship, listen to in your car. I don't know, workout music. I don't know if you would work out to this, but I guess you could try. Um- I love it ... but yeah, I usually, I usually listen to, um, Oh God, Show Mercy To Us probably, like, once a day. I listen to it usually in the morning to kinda center my day and get my head in the right space.

Um, but yeah, it's just good stuff. David, um, Mi- Matthew David Montgomery, uh, the specific one was Psalms for Singing, but, um, all of his stuff is really great.

Jesse Schwamb: All right.

Jesse Affirms Hymn Devotional

Jesse Schwamb: People are gonna think we're totally conspiring now, but I promise we're not. This is just how our minds work in collective fashion, that we never speak about stuff together.

So my affirmation is right in the same vein. So I'm actually excited about this one because it might just be the golden age of daily books about, like, theological meditation. It might be. And [00:06:00] so this one is really good, and I'm super stoked because I'm kind of on the cusp of this one because I got an advance copy of this book, and it's just out now.

It's called Awake My Soul, and it's daily readings, 365 hymn texts taken throughout church history from the Middle Ages to 1900. And each hymn for the day includes s- a suggested tune and then, like, a short historical slash, like, theological meditation. The beauty of this- Wow One, I'm learning all kinds of new hymns that are not my favorite.

Two, you can either read them or... There's no music included in this, except that in the back there's an index that will give you... There's, like, a little code every day. This is like a s- it's your own treasure hunt. There's a little code on each day, and if you take that code and go back to the end of the book, what you'll find there is names of popular hymns or songs that you do know the, the tune to, and then you can take that same tune and use the same poetic meter that the hymn is in that you don't know, and guess what?

You can actually sing it. So you're prepared every day to sing [00:07:00] music and to sing brand-new music with great confidence and high conviction. So this is, like, the bridge here. Go listen to some good music. And I would say if you wanna buy this, because it is brand new, go to hymnworks.com. It's by P&R Publishing.

That's where you'll find the best price. It's, like, 25 bucks. It's a beautiful clothbound, like, handsome two-color printing with a ribbon. And also Passion Week and Advent are clearly marked and can be adapted for use in any calendar year. So there you go. Like, it's the double-barreled affirmation for good singing, good hymns.

By the way, for all the brothers and sisters of exclusive psalmody, we see you raising your hands in the back. Actually, if you're doing exclusive psalmody, you're in the front. So we see you in the front, and this- And you're

Tony Arsenal: probably not raising your hands.

Jesse Schwamb: You're definitely not raising your hand. We see your hands

Tony Arsenal: in your pockets.

Jesse Schwamb: We see you standing there

Tony Arsenal: stoically.

Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. We see your hands in your pockets, never coming out. That's fine. Yeah. Uh, this book also is for you because so much of it is actually just, uh, the psalms adapted for kind of [00:08:00] more, when I say contemporary, between the Middle Ages and 1900 worship. So, uh, there you go.

I think this is lovely. Uh, we didn't plan it, but you've got two great resources for daily living and daily singing.

Tony Arsenal: Yeah.

Building Daily Liturgy

Tony Arsenal: And, you know, I think, um, there is sort of an element, and I'll be quick about this, where we are set up... We have such a, like, a dearth of riches in terms of accessibility to musical worship.

And y- you know, used to think of it as, like, daily devotions, but I think the more, I think the more accurate and I think a, a more theologically rich term is a daily liturgy. Right. Um, you know, with books like Be Thou My Vision, um, by I think it's David Gibson, or, you know, he has, like, the Christmas version and the, um, I think there's an Easter version of it where it really walks you through a, a full daily liturg- liturgy with, like, a call to worship and a, a confession of sin.

And, [00:09:00] um, and you could take these resources, whether it's an album like David, uh, or, like, um, David Michael Montgomery. That's a country singer, I think. Whatever the guy is that I recommend. I don't have his name in front of me. Uh, whether it's an album like that or whether it's- Right ... this resource Jesse's talking about, or like I've said before, like, just the trendy Psalter Hymnal app on your phone which will play the music for you and display the words.

You can take this and there... I, I hate to say it this way because I know there's a lot of people that, that make good profitable use of sort of like evangelical, I would call it, like, fluffy devo kinda stuff. Uh, which ironically on my list of affirmations of things that are in the queue, there's, there's a devotional resource that even kinda falls into this category.

Yeah, there is. But, um, there really is no good excuse for not having some sort of robust daily worship pattern. Right. Um, because you can, you can really make use of these resources to create a pretty cohesive, well put-together, pleasurable kind of [00:10:00] daily worship set or liturgy or experience, I don't know, whatever word you wanna slot in there.

Um, a- and really get... Like, really just have an excellent experience out of it, really have good resources. So yeah, I'm, I'm on board. I think it's great. I would love to, I would love to be able to, uh, to take a look at that. So maybe next time we're in the same geographical location you'll have to show me.

Jesse Schwamb: Oh, I'll bring it. We'll, we'll do it. It actually doubles as a hymnal because it's all indexed, so you can actually- Yeah ... just use it as a hymnal. I love books that give you two purposes. Oh, that's a double threat book right there. And that means, like, for the spaces taken up in your life and on your shelf it can do more than one thing.

That's like having a kitchen appliance that, like, I don't know, is like an air fryer and it brews beer. Like, that's worth- Yeah ... the space all the time

Tony Arsenal: Yeah, I, I just recently found out that they make washers that are also dryers, and they're in the same machine, and- Wow.

Jesse Schwamb: That's transformative ... I

Tony Arsenal: would feel like a millionaire if I had one of those-

Reading Mark 13 Parable

Jesse Schwamb: 'cause- Well, speaking of [00:11:00] feeling like a millionaire, and I think what you challenge us with is settling in some patterns of daily worship and living for God, it just so happens that Jesus has some instruction for us in that same way- Nice ... in Mark chapter 13. So let me start beginning in verse 32. And if you're tracking along or keeping score at home and you've gone to this chapter, what you're probably gonna find is we're actually in the, the parable of the fig tree, or just at the end.

But w- we're not gonna touch that one, not yet, so don't get too excited. We're actually coming right at the end of that. So picking up in verse 32: "But of that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone." Now, this is Jesus speaking: "See to it, keep on the alert, for you do not know when the appointed time will come.

It's like a man away on a journey who, leaving his house and giving authority to his slaves, each one his task, also commanded the doorkeeper to stay awake. Therefore stay awake – for you do not know when the master of the house is coming, whether in the [00:12:00] evening, at midnight, or when the rooster crows, or in the morning – lest he come suddenly and find you sleeping.

And what I say to you I say to all: Stay awake."

Tony Arsenal: Yeah.

What Stay Awake Means

Tony Arsenal: Yeah, it's a good, uh, it's a good parable. And, you know, this is covering a lot of the same ground as other parables that we've, uh, approached. I think what's a little bit, uh, unique or different about this one is that some of the, some of the cautions that we, um, brought out with the other parables, because they were actually longer and had more details, um, some of those cautions don't necessarily apply the same way here.

Jesse Schwamb: Right.

Tony Arsenal: Right? We, we talked about the parable of the 10, of the 10 virgins, or the wise and foolish virgins, whatever you wanna call it, and we talked a lot about how this language of, like, stay awake seemed to be misapplied, uh, as, like, falling asleep is foolish. Because in that para- that particular parable, [00:13:00] um, both the wise and the foolish virgins fall asleep.

It's not the falling asleep that was the problem, it was the being prepared, um, for the master's return. Uh, in that case, having the proper equipment, having your, you know, your lamps trimmed, your oil ready, all that stuff. In this parable, um, it really is about being awake. Like, being awake is the task. Yes.

It's the specific command. That's right. And so our task tonight is to unpack a little bit about what it even means to be awake, what does this parable say to us about that. Um, but I, I think this one falls a little bit more in line with kind of what we maybe... I know this is weird to say. It falls a little bit more in line with what we've been talking about as a, sort of like a little bit of a legalistic approach to some of the parables.

This one really does have, I th- I think, has more to do with, uh, the, the sort of production that Christians are expected to have.

Jesse Schwamb: Right.

Tony Arsenal: The, the, the holiness, the good works we're expected to have, and how [00:14:00] that plays into kind of our alertness, our, our fittedness for service, uh, and, and maybe ultimately even the way that we're rewarded in the last, the last times or in, in heaven.

All of that kinda plays in here, and this is kind of like Mark's equivalent to sort of like the eschatological parables that we talked about at, at the end of Matthew in, you know, Matthew 25 and, and sort of that area

Jesse Schwamb: I totally agree.

Vocation and Stewardship

Jesse Schwamb: I think this bad boy, even just the first verse, it's like a compact statement of the doctrine of vocation and providence all wrapped into one.

And it's easy to read it and just kind of fly by that stuff and say, "Of course, I need to be aware of what's going on. I need to be aware of God's presence or seek Him in worship." All that's true, but there's a lot in this because, of course, the master's departure here corresponds clearly to Christ's ascension.

There's like a real bodily absence that nonetheless does not amount to like abandonment. And then to your point, what I think starts to differentiate us from some of like the [00:15:00] other parables where we've been very careful about parsing this, has been this assignment, each his own work. It's reflecting like a really traditional like Reformed, I think, emphasis, even from like Calvin's doctrine of vocation, that the Christian life between the ascension and the Parousia is not one of like passive waiting, but there is like an active differentiated stewardship, and it's every believer.

And even though it's just a sentence, there's like a lot of particularity in this to remind us that each one has a task, and that task is something that you should undertake on behalf and for the Lord

Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah, and this, um, the other element of this, um, that I think is interesting is, you know, we don't wanna, um We wanna be careful not to try to build entire theological, like edifices, edifices.

I'm not sure which word is right. Edifice. We don't wanna build huge theological structures on top of like slight variations in words. And, and I know that, um, that can [00:16:00] sometimes be very popular in our circles and, and I'm, I s- absolutely support the grammatical historical interpretive method. I don't think it's the only el- only, you know, hermeneutic we should think about.

But I definitely agree with the words matter and the meanings of the words matter. Right. But we can also go too far in, like, making an entire theological point hang on the particular choice of a verb pars- like a verb tense or mood or whatever. But I think it's interesting, um, w- the sort of what we might call the parable proper starts in verse 34, but in verse 33 it says, "Be on guard, keep awake, for you do not know when the time will come."

That's not the parable. That's Christ giving a command to his immediate audience, and then I think vicariously therefore for us. When we get into the parable and it, and it says, uh, that the command for the doorkeeper, right? So the, he, he takes his servants, he puts his servants in charge, and I s- I take that to mean, [00:17:00] like, he leaves the house to them.

Like, he leaves them to their task. They're, they're not, they're not having to report to anybody. They just manage the household- Right ... autonomously or independently. Um, each with his work, so there's this idea that, like, each of the servant has their own proper sort of realm of the house that they manage, right?

The gardener's managing the garden, the, the house, you know, the, the, um, the, the person who's in charge of the money is managing that. And the doorkeeper, which is a particular role, his task, his charge, his, he is commanded to stay awake. Now, the phrase, the word for stay awake in verse 30, uh, 34 is not the same word that's used in verse 33.

Now, I, I have not done the word study on this or, or the c- commentary work to know how significant that is, but we do affirm that the Holy Spirit inspires each individual word.

Jesse Schwamb: That's right.

Tony Arsenal: And I think we could make an argument that sometimes a word is just used, um, at least on a, on a [00:18:00] human level. It, it's just you don't wanna use the same word multiple times.

Like, just like anyone writing any sort of pi- piece of work, you don't use the same word repetitively. You vary the words. You use, use synonyms to, to spice it up and to give it some variety. But also, I think there may be some significance in the fact that within the story, within the parable, the command to stay awake is a particular word, and then a different word to stay awake and to be watchful, and there's this repetition, "Be on guard.

Keep awake." Like, those are parallel statements. Um, those, that's a significant thing that that word is different

Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. It's a huge, I think, reminder that there's all... The- even, again, I can't believe how much is packed. Now that I think about this, we start talking about it into, like, a single sentence. But every believer, like every servant in this house, has been given some kind of task suited to his place.

I believe that's what Jesus is trying to impress us with. And that idleness is not an option countenanced by the text because the doorkeeper's [00:19:00] particular charge to watch, like you were saying, functions to me, I think, almost like a synecdoche. Like, it's f- for the whole- Yeah ... household's duty. His vigilance stands for what is in fact required of every servant, since verse 37 will then extend this command to, like, everybody.

So just- Yeah ... within, like, this little space of writing or this little space of teaching, I think what we have here is, like, it's realistic for us to say we've got the twin realities that ground really biblical ecclesiology in the interim period. We have Christ's real absence, but that's, like, against, I would say, any collapsing of the already into a fully realized eschatology.

And then you have Christ's ongoing ownership and authority over his house, which is the church, against any notion that the church is left to autonomous self-governance. So the house, in other words, re- remains Christ's, and the servants remain accountable to him, not to themselves, like you've just said, and each one is accountable to God in a unique way according to the task that he's given them.

So again, this beautiful marriage of [00:20:00] both the responsibility, the providence, and the responsibility that we have before God in being responsible to him, but also that he is governing all things for his good and for his glory.

Tony Arsenal: Yeah.

Doorkeeper Role Explained

Tony Arsenal: And you know, I think, um, the word doorkeeper here too, uh, you know, as I peek at the Greek a little bit, the word doorkeeper is also a much broader term than, uh, it might seem.

You know, like I think, you know, one of my kid's favorite shows is like Curious George, and there's a character in the, the story that's literally named Doorman, and he's just the guy that like opens the door in the apartment that- Right ... Curious George and the Man in the Yellow Hat. But the word doorkeeper in, uh, in the Greek here, when applied to a, a female, is understood to be like the janitor.

So the doorkeeper might even be considered something more like the master of the house. Like think of like, um-

Jesse Schwamb: Lady's ...

Tony Arsenal: uh, like the, the head butler, right? In like if you think of like Downton Abbey, right? Right. The, the guy who actually like takes care of and like [00:21:00] runs, the house manager or something like that might be a better way to look at it.

And I think you're right that his charge to stay awake, to keep alert, it does extend to the entire household, but it also is a particular command for that figure.

Jesse Schwamb: Right.

Tony Arsenal: Right? So yes, everybody is given their task. This, this person, this doorkeeper, he is, um, called out specifically, individually, right? It's not as though he's the only servant in the house.

There's all these other servants, they each have their task, and they're all commanded to keep about their business. The doorkeeper, the master of the house, the, I don't know, head butler, the head ch- the chief janitor, I don't know what you would want, the head custodian of the house, um, and don't think of custodian or janitor in terms of like- Like the school janitor who like cleans the toilets and mops up after the kids throwing up and stuff.

The, the janitor or the custodian of the house is really the person who kind of like runs the household, the sort of like head servant of the house. [00:22:00] His command to keep watchful, to be on guard or to be alert is because, um, the, the master's return is sudden and unexpected. Right. And so if the doorkeeper doesn't keep up with things, if he's not awake, if he's not running things, if he's not managing things, if he's not alert and awake, then not only does his task get, get, um, undone...

And I think like we think of it like, "Oh yeah, be on guard." You sometimes hear this parable or, or variations of this parable taught as like you gotta keep the wolves out, like he's the guard at the door. Right. I don't think that's what this is getting at. It's really more like if this, if the doorkeeper s- falls asleep on the job, then the entire house falls into disarray, and you can't recover that when the master all of a sudden is at the gate.

If you're just the guard, I guess you might be able to snap to attention and like, you know, pull your pole arm or whatever it is up. Like you might be able to snap to attention and kind of fake it. But if you're the guy who manages the entire household and the [00:23:00] whole household is in disarray because you've fallen asleep on the job, there's no recovering from that when the master taps you on the shoulder and says, "Please wake up, I'm home."

You just can't recover from that. And so I think that's, that's the element of the story, the element of the parable that we probably need to think about a little bit more is, all right, w- no one of us is the doorkeeper of the church.

Jesse Schwamb: That's right.

Tony Arsenal: But also none of us are not the doorkeeper of the church.

So like we all have a role and a responsibility in, in the church to sort of like be a part of, an active part of the church, an active part of God's kingdom, which is not, I'm not trying to say we're all gatekeepers, right? We're not all called to be r- to rule over the church. Like there's a particular office of ruling elder that I would say exists, uh, you know, that's codified in the OPC.

But even within other kinds of s- setups, there's usually some sort of elder, you know, setup where there's elders that are not teaching elders. They're not there to like teach and minister and, and preach. They're there to [00:24:00] like govern the church and support the needs of the body spiritually. That's really, uh, you know, like a particular office, but that's also a task and a role that we all share as Christians is to, to sh- sort of, I almost said shepherd, but that doesn't feel right, but it also doesn't feel wrong.

To sort of like manage the business of the congregation and the church- That's right ... and the, the invisible church as a whole. That's the task of every Christian, and that's really what this parable's getting at, I think.

Jesse Schwamb: I think so too. And I, I don't wanna, like, build too far a bridge away from that point.

I think it's worth sitting there for a second because what occurs to me as you were saying that is I just happened to be reading Calvin's commentary this morning in 1 Corinthians 5, and he builds this whole theological argument around this idea that he, he basically is saying, "Why should the Corinthians mourn over one man's sin?"

And he gives two reasons. First, as a consequence of the communion that exists among the members of the church, it's becoming that all should feel hurt at or so it's deadly if one of their members should fall. And the second is when such an erroneous sin is [00:25:00] perpetrated in a particular church, the perpetrator is an offender in such a manner that he pollutes the whole society.

That is to say, I think it's kind of in line with what you're saying, that corruption in one place will affect the entire body. That is like falling asleep, pulling away from the mission Being found outside of the mission of God's, uh, for God's glory is something that hurts the church body. And we might ask, like if there is in our own lives a persistent sin, some kind of corruption, then we ought to ask, is there any form of corruption that we're contributing to the body of God?

And I think those, these like real consequences of what it means to live in a way where we find ourselves, again, outside of what it means to worship whole heartedly, to worship with heart, soul, and mind, all of which we do imperfectly. Yet at the same time- Yeah ... are we being awake? Are we being made aware?

Watchfulness and Rest

Jesse Schwamb: I, I wonder if part of what's envisioned here and in view with Jesus' teaching is not just this idea... Almost like I think sometimes we, we say stay awake or we say be [00:26:00] watchful, and of course like I love that Jesus mentions like the four watches. Like that's, I think, like a distinctly kind of Roman division of the night into four three-hour segments.

And of course it's gonna suggest to Mark's gentile audience that, and, and underscore this point, that it's not which watch, but that no watch may be presumed safe from the master's arrival. And so I think when we hear that stuff we think, "Well, this means like don't fall asleep." In other words, like there's going to be a test somewhere in your life or all of your life where you're going to be legitimately tempted to take a rest, and you can't take a rest.

You gotta keep like just going thrust or no th- you, there's no other choice- Right ... but to give it your all. I think what's better here and what's in view is in all areas of life, are you awake to the reality that God has given you work to do in the spheres of influence that you have, in the particular place in which you live, among the church people whom He has given you to worship with?

Are you aware that at all times you ought to be moving and working and for His glory, [00:27:00] even while you are literally sleeping in rest so that you might do those things for the next day? So I- Yeah ... I don't wanna get too hyped up on it's kind of like, again, what's the spiritual equivalent of always drinking Celsius and Red Bull and just like toughing it out- Yeah

like with your eyes wide open. It's, it's way more than that.

Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah, uh, this is gonna seem like a weird transition, but it's, it is but also isn't. Um, I, I saw an interesting video the other... I'm getting super nerdy here right now. But, um, I saw an interesting video on YouTube the other day that was talking about how strange it was that there is like a night shift on the Starship Enterprise on Star Trek Next Generation.

But, but actually like- It, it demonstrated something to me that, like, even on a, you know, this is obviously a fictional television show, but, like, even on a spaceship where there is no sun, there is no actual reference- Right ... for what a day is, right? We think of a day, and, and rightfully so, it's locked into a 24-hour cycle because of the [00:28:00] way God has created the Earth to spin, and the sun, and the sunrise, sunset, et cetera.

But in this fictionalized universe, in this fictionalized world, there's no sunset. There's no, uh, chronology, yet they still divide on, on this, they still divide the day into these three watches. And it's funny, 'cause they talk about how, like, well, there's, there's the day shift, there's the sort of like second shift, and there's the night shift.

And they actually even, like, turn the lights down on the ship to simulate a day-night cycle. And, and what it got me thinking about, and I think in the parable, obviously, like, it's the four watches of the night. Um, I play a lot of Dungeons & Dragons, and, like, when you're gonna do what's called a long rest, you have to determine who's gonna set a watch.

If you don't set a proper watch, then the dungeon master may make it so monsters show up and you don't get your long rest. This idea that- Even resting is an appropriate and necessary execution of- Right ... the task to be watchful. That's right. Like, I think that's important. If you are, um, i- if you think of like, uh, Lord of the [00:29:00] Rings, right?

And they set a watch. Uh, the responsibility of the people who aren't on watch is to make every, every use of that time to sleep so that if something happens, they're alert. And then when also when it's time for them to take watch, they're able to be watchful. And, uh, the other thing I wanna, wanna just comment really quickly on, because I, I, I didn't do a lot of prep for this episode.

Big shocker. We don't prep a lot for these episodes. And this is another Markan parable that I'm not super familiar with.

Church Alertness and Power

Tony Arsenal: But one of the things that as we're talking through it I'm, I'm becoming more convinced of, is this really is about not just any one individual being alert, although there is implications for us.

It's really about the whole church being alert.

Jesse Schwamb: That's

Tony Arsenal: right. Like, the church is the, uh... I, I think it's in, I wanna say it's in Timothy, I don't know where, but the Church is the buttress and pillar of truth, right? So that's not to say we're the, we're the arbiter of truth, but I wanna read this. The... I don't know any other podcasts, although in our circles there [00:30:00] probably are other podcasts that you might hear someone reading out of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church book of Church Order, Form of Government, chapter three, verse, uh, passage one here.

Uh, but this is, this is, as I said, uh, BCO chapter three, Form of Government. Uh, and this is, the chapter is titled The Nature and Exercise of Church Power. And when I was coming into the OPC, I don't think I was surprised, uh, in terms of like I thought the theology was different. I was pleasantly surprised to see that this was articulated and how clearly it was articulated.

So I'm just gonna read the whole section here. It says, "The power which Christ has committed to His Church is not vested in special officers alone, but in the whole body. All believers are endued with the Spirit & called of Christ to join in the worship, edification, and the witness of the Church which grows as the body of Christ, fitly framed and knit together through, uh, that which every joint supplies according to the working and due measure of each part."

Sidebar commentary. The BCO doesn't [00:31:00] have proof text, but if they did, they would just be citing to Ephesians 5 here. Um, back to what the text says. "The power of believers in their general office includes the right to acknowledge and desire the exercise of the gifts and calling of the special officers.

The regular exercise of oversight in a particular congregation is discharged by those who have been called to such work by the vote of the people." So just to summarize that, officers, at least in the OPC Um, ruling elders are nominated and voted into, into office and essentially, uh, given their powers, their official powers, their official responsibilities, not by the presbytery, uh, and not by some hierarchy, but by the congregation.

They call from within.

Church Authority From Congregation

Tony Arsenal: But that, that means that the power of the ruling elders, the, the authority of the ruling elders, is not derived from some hierarchy. It's derived from the [00:32:00] authority and the exercise of power of the whole church. And the other thing, I won't read this, but the other thing that I found, um, really interesting that I really like is in Presbyterianism, and, and I, I believe Presbyterianism is what the Bible teaches positively as a command.

I know there are other church polities, and I know everybody is trying to figure it out, and we don't all agree. I think Presbyterianism is the right way.

Jurisdictions And Whole Church Acts

Tony Arsenal: But either way, um Presbyterianism works on a s- sort of an idea of, uh, jurisdictions, right? And they're kinda concentric circles. They're not necessarily hierarchical, but it's, it's narrow jurisdictions and then broader jurisdictions.

And the most narrow jurisdiction is the session of a local church over that congregation. But what's really interesting is that the, the Book of Church Order calls out that when any valid jurisdiction of the church is exercising its authority, it's not just that jurisdiction that's [00:33:00] acting. That's an act of the whole church, the entire Orthodox Presbyterian Church.

So in a congregation where someone is in unrepentant sin and that, uh, session makes a decision, votes a decision to excommunicate that person, to remove them from the rolls, consider them to be an unbeliever, that's not just an act of that jurisdiction. I- i- as a member of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church, when some church in Sacramento, California, I don't know if there's an OPC in Sacramento, I assume there probably is, but some church in Sacramento, California, the presbytery or the session excommunicates someone, I am e- I'm engaged in that act.

That's an act of the whole church.

Watchfulness Beyond Personal Piety

Tony Arsenal: And this, the, the only reason I go there and I bring, I kind of dive into that level of granularity is I actually think that this is kind of what this parable is teaching, is that as individuals, we need to be alert because the whole church acting is the whole church acting.

So whether this takes the [00:34:00] form of me just being really un- un- like, locked into my local church and making sure that I'm active in my local church, or whether... And I think there are some of us who are called to this, um, and I think our, our podcast in some levels sort of takes this shape a little bit, are watching what other people in the church are doing and sometimes are offering corrections, right?

It is not the case that an average blogger has ecclesiastical authority in the strictest sense, but when I see, or, or anyone who is sort of involved in online commentary, podcast, blogging or otherwise, I see someone in the church teaching something elsewhere and I call that out, that's me sort of fulfilling this command of Mark 13.

I'm being watchful Because what that Christian says or does, if they're truly a Christian, actually does have something to do with what I believe. It actually does have something to do with me as a believer. That doesn't mean that you should get up in everybody else's business. That's not what I'm saying.

Like, sometimes- Right ... the thing [00:35:00] that's going on in the church over there is just that thing that's going on over at the church there. But for example, there was a pretty high-profile, um, uh, ecclesiastical, I don't know if it was a trial, but like an ecclesiastical deposition, I guess, um, for a presbytery down in the Southwest, um, about some pretty gnarly things that were being said by an elder in the OPC church, and I wrote to that presbytery.

They haven't sent it to me yet, but I wrote to that presbytery and said, "Hey, what you did at that meeting is an act of the whole church that I'm a part of. Can you send me the minutes?" And I have a right to do that, because I wanna see what's going on. I wanna understand what statements they're making on behalf of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church of America.

Or, I just combined like 1,000 different denominations- Yes, you did. ... into one sentence. But I, I think the point is clear, like the, the parable of the watchful doorkeeper or the porter is not about exclusively, I do think there's an element of it, but it's not about our individual piety. It's about the sort of readiness state of the entire church for [00:36:00] Christ's return, if you really boil it all down

Avoid Date Setting And Indifference

Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, so we, I think before we leave verse 35, we, we are at least contractually obligated to say, though we've said it before, that there are two errors here that we should definitely seek to avoid.

And because we're talking about, again, this idea that we do not know when the master of the house will come, that is the reason why we wait, and we are watchful, like you just said. But it means that the first is any kind of, like, speculative date setting, which is a fool's errand. We've talked about that at length.

Yeah. The second one, again, I think we're contractually obligated to say, is a practical indifference, maybe sometimes dressed as, like, pious agnosticism, like treating the uncertainty of that hour as grounds for some kind of spiritual carelessness rather than heightened attentiveness. So I think where all this wraps up with what you said about one representing all, that, that is the church's responsibility.

Yes, you're right. In Timothy we get the command that this is the center and the pillar. So I... That obviously all this coheres with just straight-up biblical [00:37:00] doctrine of assurance and perseverance, because the elect are kept by God's power through faith. So what that means is watchfulness is not some kind of, like, anxious uncertainty about final salvation, but instead it is, like, this disciplined fidelity in the means God has appointed.

Ordinary Means Of Grace

Jesse Schwamb: And what are those means? Like, I feel like this is where everybody just shouts back, "Ordinary means." You know what I mean? When I say means- ... you say ordinary. Means- Or I should, I should say it the other way around. Ordinary. But this idea that, like, what are those things God has put into our lives, has appointed for us to use, has commanded us to up- obtain for ourselves by his power?

It's prayer, it's the word, it's the sacraments. It's a mutual watchfulness within that visible church like you were just describing, and it's precisely because the timing of Christ's return has been sovereignly withheld from creaturely knowledge. So there's actually a lot in this that I think assuages that, that really sensitive Christian conscience, which is like, "Well, are you telling me I have to do more?"

That's not what we're saying at all. We're, we're saying, "Do the things which God has empowered you to do." And guess what? Those things [00:38:00] are just very chill, very ordinary things that take on extraordinary influence and power in our lives by the work of the Holy Spirit. So again, it's like this whole thing of saying, like, when we work, we work.

When we pray, God works. It's the same kind of thing here. There is work to be done. There is a watchfulness to undertake in all the activities of our lives. But it is not like whatever the, again, the equivalent, like, is of, like, spiritual, I don't know, like shots of espresso and, and Celsius to just try to, like, by all accounts, by your own power, somehow just not sleep.

Uh- Yeah ... not sleeping is not what this text is about. It's actually about being aware, worshiping in awareness around all the things, and then devoting ourselves to all the stuff that we keep talking about, to praying, to studies in the scripture, to having family devotions and time of worship, to baptism, and to the Lord's Supper.

That's what watchfulness is all about.

Tony Arsenal: Yeah. [00:39:00] Yeah, and I, I think, um, you know, this is again I do think this parable has more to do with the idea of kinda getting after it. I, I think that's how we usually talk about it, like getting after holiness. Yeah, it is. Um, I, I think this parable has more to do with that than some of the other parables with similar language that we've talked about.

But I, I also think, um, as Reformed Christians, uh, we get the, we get the cart before the horse if we think that even though that's what it's about, that that somehow places the onus on us to do the good works, right? Right. The good works are prepared for us in advance that we might walk in them. And, uh, i- it's not even right to say, like, our responsibility is to walk in them.

That's not even quite right theologically. Like, we are going to walk in them. Like, that's, that's the thing, is the doorkeeper is given this charge. He's commanded to stay awake, and in good Augustinian fashion, it's really more along the [00:40:00] lines es- of the doorkeeper is made to stay awake because he's been commanded to.

Jesse Schwamb: Yes, that's right.

Tony Arsenal: And I think that's, that's really key.

Fruit Checking And Assurance

Tony Arsenal: And yes, there is some- something to say for, uh, fruit checking. And I, I know that there are probably some in our audience that just, like, threw up in their mouth a little bit when I said that. Um, but the, the reality is, a lack of fruit, uh, i- in our life, and by fruit I'm talking about good works.

Primarily I'm talking about the ordinary means of grace, like you said. A, a person who is refusing to avail themselves of the ordinary means of grace, right? Right on. Regular church attendance, prayer- Right ... the sacraments, Bible reading, um, sitting under the preaching of the Word, fellowship with other believers.

Um, I would even say to some extent regular s- regular financial support of the Church. Mm-hmm. Um, and, and I... There, there are times where that may not be, uh, the most feasible thing, and so that's a decision between you and the Holy Spirit and for you to discuss with your pastor. [00:41:00] But, but the reality is God has given us these ordinary means of grace as a gift and as a way to nourish and support us.

When we refuse to take part in those, and I use the word refuse intentionally, when a person refuses to attend church, for the most part most of us who have had a season where we don't, don't attend church, and I, I had a long season when I was in college where I just didn't attend church. There was no good reason for it.

I just didn't do it. And if I'm being really honest, it was 'cause at that time in my life I had some sinful patterns that I didn't wanna face up to, right? That's usually what it boils down to.

Jesse Schwamb: Right.

Tony Arsenal: Um, but for those of us who d- who refuse to, uh, take part and to avail ourselves of the ordinary means of grace, that should really cause us to question our salvation.

Not because the ordinary means of grace cause our salvation, but because the ordinary means of grace are exactly as they're called. Exactly. They're the ordinary means by which God delivers His grace to us. So if we're refusing to receive God's grace, it means we're refusing to receive God's grace. And the only people ultimately who are not forgiven are [00:42:00] those who receive to ref- you know, refuse to receive God's grace.

So I think this, this passage has more to do with us in an indi- sort of on the individual level, us being actively engaged and partaking in the, uh, the administration of the covenant of grace, to use a more technical term, right? The administration of the covenant of the grace are the visible means of grace.

If we refuse to be baptized, if we refuse to partake of the Lord's supper, if we refuse to attend church and to sit under the preaching of the word and to pray, then we are, we are turning down God's offer of grace. That's right. We're taking the gift that He desires to give us, and we're saying, "No thank you."

Well, when we phrase it that way, it's a flat rejection of God's grace that we're engaged in.

Church Mission And Readiness

Tony Arsenal: But on a, on a sort of like big picture scale I think it has to do also along with these lines that I'm talking about of the Church itself being ready. Well, how does the Church prepare itself for Christ's [00:43:00] return?

Again, the ordinary means of grace, right? We prepare ourselves by teaching and ministering, right? C- I think it's Colossians 1:28. If I was on Reformed Forum, I'd have this memorized 'cause it's their, like, theme verse. But, like, equipping every person for the ministry of Christ, equipping every person, making sure every person is, uh, mature and ready.

Like, all of those things come together as the primary mission of the Church. And I know this is gonna trigger some people, but, like, evangelism is not the primary mission of the Church. The primary mission of the Church is to glorify God and enjoy Him forever, which takes place mostly on the Lord's day.

I think all of that, the personal dimension, the corporate dimension, all of that coalesces in this command to be watchful, to stay awake, to be on guard, to s- be about the task, to be in charge of the commands you've been given. All of those different concepts come together in what Christ is talking about here in verse 37 when He says, "I say to you, I say to all, [00:44:00] stay awake."

Like- Right ... that's what we're talking about. So it's not as simple as personal piety. It's probably not as complicated as some sort of, like, I don't know, least of these, feed-the-poor schema that happens sometimes. All of that happens. It really is just about the Church being the Church and doing the things the Church does, both on the individual level, but also on the corporate level.

Perseverance And Scriptural Warnings

Jesse Schwamb: And that's why, as loved ones of God, then we can come to verse 36, which is the full warning, and we actually read it as a great comfort. So it says, "Lest he come suddenly and find you asleep." And after all we're talking about here, the way I read this warning against complacency is entirely consistent with, instead of being contradictory to, the doctrine of perseverance of the saints.

Because perseverance is not fatalism, and I'm just... I'm still learning this, loved ones. Like, and even here, what I marvel at is the warnings of scripture are themselves among the ordinary means by which God preserves His people. So I go back to the Westminster [00:45:00] Confession of Faith chapter 17, which notes that, "Believers may, through the temptations of Satan and of the world, fall into grievous sins, and so incur God's displeasure, even while never finally falling from grace."

So that sobering possibility of, of quote-unquote being found asleep I think functions pastorally not to threaten the loss of the election, of the elect, but to press home I think, like, the seriousness of watchfulness as the fruit and evidence of genuine faith, which is what you're talking about. That, that's kind of like the Reformed theological jam in a sense, and that's why, where I think we'd anchor like James 2, Hebrews 3 and 4.

There is, like, a call of the necessity of perseverance in the means as the mark of the true as opposed to be merely, of course, like some kind of profession of discipleship. The visible church, and we talked about this too, mixed as it is, is here warned that the formal membership in the household is no substitute for actual wakefulness.

And so I hope we see that warning as not something [00:46:00] that's like, "Well, you gotta, you gotta check yourself every day 'cause if you just step out of line once, if you fall asleep at any little thing, then it just goes to show you that you weren't serious enough." Instead, it's like you said, Tony, like even the warning itself is proof positive that God will save, that He arrests, that He holds everything firm and secure, and that even the setting of the table or the preparing of the good works and then the way in which you walk in them, we might ask, how is it that you are even walking?

Yeah. And so even this is all an act of God, whether we speak about that, uh, that justification, that initial positional sanctification, and even the progressive frame as well is all f- happens here because God is in fact doing that good work. So it's a good warning because it reminds us that what's, I think, the particular and special dispensation of the Christian is that in this falling asleep, as the Westminster Confession says, it may mean that we fall even into grievous sins.

We're incurring God's displeasure. We're not disrupting our [00:47:00] identity in Christ, but we are disrupting our harmony with Christ. Yes. And so we always want to seek and to live in that kind of beautiful harmony where there is, I think, obedience for a word. There is a special fellowship that comes from being close to God in this way.

We should always strive after that and want that very thing, but at no point does the Christian who even falls into grievous sins, as the Confession reminds us, fall outside of God's mercy and grace. Merely we fall outside of God's pleasure, and we r- we're finally returned to grace by His power in our lives, whi- which He Himself affects so that even in our fall, even in our death every day, there is a little bit of resurrection that restores us.

Tony Arsenal: Yeah.

Rapture Ready Misreadings

Tony Arsenal: Yeah, another way, um, another way to put this, um, and I, I don't mean to trugger, trig- to trigger, uh, our dispensationalist friends and family who are listening to the show, um, there are I will speak from my own experience coming out of a dispensationalist framework when I was in [00:48:00] high school and early college.

Um, there was a lot of focus on being, quote, "Rapture ready." And I, I think sometimes we can read parables like this to think that stay awake means be Rapture ready. And what that means is, like, in some forms of dispensationalism, and I think probably many forms of dispensationalism, there's this idea that, like, if you're not right with God in, in this sense you're talking about, if, like, you're in disharmony with God when the Rapture comes, you may ultimately be saved, but you're not gonna be saved by the Rapture, which means you're gonna have to deal with the tribulation, and that's no good.

So, like, if your piety's not on point when the Rapture happens, all your friends are gonna be taken away, and you're gonna be left behind, right? I don't think it's too much of a characteristic- a caricature to talk about Left Behind when there's an entire dispensational book series about this, right?

Right. The whole concept behind the Left Behind novel is that it's populated by people who thought they were Christians who weren't. Uh, and some of [00:49:00] those are because they had a false profession of faith. Some of them were just back- what, what a lot of people would just call backslidden Baptists or backslidden Christians who, who had a genuine profession of faith but just weren't living in a holy fashion.

I think we can sometimes read this, whether we're dispensationalists or not, we can read these kinds of parables in light of Rapture readiness. I think it's, it's both more assuring and also infinitely more severe than that. Right. It's not about Rapture ready. It's about whether you're saved or not. Right.

Whether you are in the kingdom of God, whether you are among the household of believers. All of the people in view in this parable are members of the master's household, right? Uh, they're all his servants. So it's not as though there are some who are, um, outside of his family that are be given, being given a command to be watchful.

There's also no consequence implied for the doorkeeper if somehow he's not watchful. It's more along the lines of if you're in the faith, if you are the doorkeeper or a [00:50:00] doorkeeper in the g- in the king's house, then you ought to be watchful because that's what you do. And so there's no, like, implied consequence.

There's no assumption that the doorkeeper somehow won't be watchful. So I think if there's any sort of, like, gut check, status check that needs to happen, it's really more along the lines of are we in the Lord's household or are we not? That's right. That's right. And I think that's, that's what you're getting at.

If we're in the Lord's household, if we're members of his house, if we're servants in his kingdom, then we will be awake when the time comes. We will be awake when he returns.

Rooster Crow And Passion Echoes

Tony Arsenal: And the other thing, and I'll just throw this out there maybe as a tease. I don't, I don't think there's enough here for us to come back to it next week, uh, although I've been wrong before, and sometimes Jesse and I have conversations right after that turn into the next episode.

I think it's really interesting- I don't know if you ran into this when you were reading it, but- Yeah ... verse 35: "Therefore stay awake, for you do not know when the master of the house will come, in the evening or at [00:51:00] midnight or when the rooster crows," that's a very interesting phrase to me- It is, yeah ... "or in the morning."

It's just another chapter or two when- Yeah ... we see the disciples fall asleep in the Garden of Gethsemane, right? Gethsemane. Um, the disciples fall asleep. We see language of the watches, right? The, the hours that Christ is alive and dies on the cross are associated with the watches. Right. And then of course the rooster crowing.

And it's a very well-known, um, uh, I, I don't wanna call it a fact 'cause that might be too strong, but it's a pretty accepted, uh, theory in, in the sort of, uh, academic understanding of the, the authors of the Gospels that Mark, uh, Mark actually represents Peter's testimony. That the sort of a- apostolic imprimatur of the Gospel of Mark is actually that M- John Mark, probably while he was ministering with Peter, was being told these, this account, and he's collecting Peter's, Peter's [00:52:00] statements on the events of the Gospel It is very interesting to me that this phrase about the rooster crowing associated with being watchful and ready in the service of the master- Yep

would appear particularly in the gospel that's asso- associated with Peter. Right. And I'll throw that out there just as maybe food for a discussion- ... in our Telegram chat, but I do think e- even that is sort of for our benefit, right? Right. We're not talking about, uh, this isn't a parable about what happens when you betray Jesus and hang yourself with a rope, right?

This isn't, this isn't Judas who never was a believer. If we're drawing this peril- parallel, this is a parable about Peter, or related to Peter's experience, uh, who was restored, who ultimately had a moment of sleepiness, I guess, both physically and, you know, spiritually here. Had a moment of, of sleepiness, but ultimately was awake when the master came.

That's right. And I think, like, there's something there for us to tease out, and, and again, [00:53:00] maybe we'll leave that for the Telegram chat. Maybe that's just for your own personal study. I've done zero commentary work, so maybe this is a connection that I feel- ... is super novel, but actually everyone else makes.

Um, but I just thought it was really interesting how closely that language, that sequence of the watchfulness, the watch, sleepiness, awakefulness, and the rooster crows, how closely that lines up to the events that w- would be if we were going through Mark sequentially- Yep ... we would be encountering in just a couple chapters, right?

In just chapter 15. They're coming up. Um, we're talking about this exact thing. So it's very interesting to me, is it... The Holy Spirit is amazing in how He has put together this. Yes. Even if, even if that is a super tenuous connection, it's still a connection. And- Agreed ... I have a tough time thinking anyone who's familiar with the, the passion accounts would read this and not go, "Woo."

That's a lot of language from the passion account. It's a lot of- Yes ... language related to what happened in just a few chapters.

Jesse Schwamb: Yes. I'm with you. Like we said, there's so much that's within these couple of verses, and you'd have to think if you were reading this with brand-new eyes, [00:54:00] with eyes that never seen this text before, and you were just going straight through, you'd come in just a few short chapters to that whole narrative in Gethsemane and be like, "What?

Did he, didn't he just, didn't this guy Jesus just say to them- Like be watchful, stay awake. And here they're... Isn't that ironic? Here they are in the garden, and he said- Yeah ... to them again, "Stay awake." They fall asleep. He comes back, he's like, "Could you not watch for one hour?" Yeah. He's using all the same language that he just talked before.

So I think we shouldn't discount that and just, just throw that away.

Husband Analogy For Vigilance

Jesse Schwamb: I think if I had to put all this together in, like, my own strain, strange metaphor based on a lot of what we said, it would be something like this. Let's say that, uh... Well, I- Let's not say I am, so let's just say I am. I am a husband. And so one way you could think about, well, what it means to be watchful as a husband could be that I put this pressure on myself to make sure that any point in time, if somebody asks if I'm married or if I need to show that I'm married or I need to prove that I'm married, I need to have my marriage certificate at the ready.

And so, like, the way I do that, the way I can interpret that watchfulness is I [00:55:00] keep it in the outside pocket. I always keep it with me. Has to be at arm's length. It has to be ready to whip it out and show it to somebody so that I can prove, yes, look, I am in fact, uh, married to Jen. Here it is on paper, and I am a husband.

The other way I might think about this, which I think is the more proper way of what it means to be watchful, sober-minded, to be aware of what it means to be a husband, is in all of my duties of life, to always be remembering and to acknowledge and to represent and to honor my wife in how I talk and how I interact with others.

Now, some of that might be in the very watchful way we say to avoid temptations because marriage necessarily commands it. But it's, it's more than that, isn't it? It's thinking of my wife throughout the day. It's interacting with people- Yes ... in such a way that at any given point in time, it becomes obvious, though not obnoxious, that I am in this committed relationship of which I have great identity and harmony.

And if I think we look at it that way, then the ordinary ways of showing that I'm a husband are the ordinary ways of doing life in relationship, even when [00:56:00] that person is not with you. And so- Yes ... that's so much of what we have here, that I have still responsibility as a husband that I ought to honor and obligate myself to and to my wife, that are necessary to obey and to, you know, fall into rhythm with, even when she is not present with me.

And so that, of course, is where this whole thing breaks down to a great degree. However, I think the beauty of this whole thing here is that the warning is actually for us loved ones. Like, I mean that literally. Not just for us as in it's directed at you, but that it's for you because it empowers you to do the ordinary things which God has given to you so you can be freed up to understand that He makes no mistakes.

He didn't mean to make us all missionaries somewhere in some far off place, or even next door. But that He has given us everything that you have, every vocational skill, every talent, ability, and sphere of influence, so they might use it for His glory. And in that way, that is what it means to be vigilant and to stay awake.

Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah, I think, um, I think that's right on, and I think a good place for us to wrap this up is, [00:57:00] um, I, I really like your analogy, and I, I think- A person who is watchful about being a husband, uh, is not the person who carries their m- marriage license around in their pocket, right?

Jesse Schwamb: Right.

Tony Arsenal: Uh, that would be weird to do, and I guess maybe that would be one way to be watchful, but it just wouldn't, like, it just wouldn't be- Missing the point

um, it's missing the point, yeah. A- and, and like, um, a, a better way would be like, you know, um, occasionally you'll see, like, funny videos online of, like, somebody who's at an event and, like, you know, it's a husband and, like, a pretty girl is flirting with him, and they just kinda like point to their wedding ring.

Right. And it's just the end, it's just the end of the discussion, right? It's this idea that, like, no matter where I go, no matter what I do, no matter who I'm with or not with, I am s- I am always going to be a husband. That's a fundamental part of my identity, and that does and should shape every single thing and everything I do, whether it's conscious or not.

Jesse Schwamb: Right.

Tony Arsenal: And I think, I think as a [00:58:00] husband, there are points in the day where I realize there are decisions that I'm making and thoughts that I'm having that are entirely related to the fact that I'm a husband or a father or, you know, whatever, whatever fundamental identity element there is, right?

Identity Drives Obedience

Tony Arsenal: Um, the fact that I'm a Christian is a even more foundational identity marker of who I am.

And so when I go into a patient encounter at the hospital, or when I pull up to a red light, or when I order a sandwich at McDonald's and they get it wrong, like, all of these different scenarios, I bring with me the fact that I am a Christian, the fact that I am a servant of Christ, that I am a doorkeeper in the house of the living God, right?

I need to be watchful both in my personal piety in those moments, but also just in general I need to be watchful. This is just, um- The doorkeeper is not, uh... Let me put it [00:59:00] this way. The doorkeeper doesn't do what he does to become the doorkeeper in this parable, right? Right. He's already the doorkeeper, and the fact that he's the doorkeeper explains why he's given certain responsibilities and certain commands.

That's the way it is for us as Christians. We're expected to follow the moral law. We're expected to represent God's name, which is really just an extension of the third commandment. But we're expected to do those things not because those things make us Christians or make us members of God's household, but because we already are.

And I think ultimately that's kind of where this parable lands, is we're, we're watchful because of who we are and what we are in God's kingdom, not because it gives us a status, but because of the status we already have.

Jesse Schwamb: Amen. That's right on.

Community And Support The Show

Jesse Schwamb: Well, there's all these ordinary means of grace which we should encourage one another in, to participate in them, to love and cherish them, and to understand that those are, in fact, the good works that God has set apart for us to walk in.

And then there's the ordinary things that you can do to [01:00:00] support the podcast, which are of a much lesser nature. But they're still, believe it or not, just ordinary. So here's a couple of things you can do. One is, Tony already referenced it. It was the Ts, and that is we use this app called Telegram. You can download it.

You can go to any browser and just type in t.me\reformedbrotherhood, and that link will take you to a bunch of brothers and sisters who are hanging out, listening to the podcast, and doing life together from all over the world. Just come hang out. It's a lot of fun. The second thing you can do is just head on over to reformedbrotherhood.com, and what you'll find there is 500 of the best episodes that have been ever recorded into the internet just living there.

Most

Tony Arsenal: definitive episodes.

Jesse Schwamb: Yes, exactly. Just living there. They're waiting for you. And then what you're gonna find as you listen to them is you'll notice that there's, like, strangely no interruption for a ZipRecruiter ad. There's no, like, Purple Mattress- ... testimony in the middle of that. And you'll think to yourself, "How is it possible that over 500 hours of this could be put on the internet without a paywall?[01:01:00]

No Jericho walls that I have to tumble down. How is that possible?" Loved ones, it's because so many have decided that after their other responsibilities have been fulfilled financially, they want to give just a little bit to make sure that all the hosting, posting, and editing fees are covered so that this can just keep going out.

If you'd like to bless somebody else in that way, and really that's not a gift to us so much as it is to, I think, others. There are Christians all over the globe that we know stumble upon the podcast for whatever reason. And because of how good God is, because of the very ordinary things that we're talking about here, just the simple act of praising God in voice and in conversation can somehow edify or encourage somebody, particularly in a very rough time or place.

Uh, we've heard that testimony over and over again, and I think- Yeah ... Tony, we're always so humbled by that kind of thing. Um, that happens because people give. So you can go to patreon.com/reformedbrotherhood and, uh, just a little bit there, one time or a reoccurring gift of any amount, big or small, makes sure that this kind of thing [01:02:00] just keeps going.

It's a lot of fun. We love to do it, and we hope that we'll continue to be able to do it, uh, for as long as the Lord tarries or until He calls Tony and I into His glory.

Tony Arsenal: Yes. Yeah. Yeah, I hope we are still doing this podcast when the Lord comes back or when we die, because I love doing it, and I don't wanna stop.

And, uh, that was a weird transition- ... and I'm just gonna slide it into gear. Uh, anyway, yeah, I'm... I don't know what I just did. I- It was beautiful ... it's like I forgot how to podcast tonight, Jesse.

Final Thanks And Next Series

Tony Arsenal: I'm not sure exactly what that means, but, uh, Jesse, I appreciate this conversation. I've loved the work we're doing- Me too

on the parables. I love, um, I love all of the Bible. Um, I think I've come to sort of love the Gospels more through these conversations. Mm. So I'm excited. You know, we're, we're going to be coming up to the end of the parable series in somewhat short order, although short order on this podcast is usually a matter of months and, and [01:03:00] sometimes years.

But, um, I'm excited to continue into the parables of Luke. Um, again, there are some that are unique to Luke that I think are really interesting and have a little bit of a different flavor. Yes, for

Jesse Schwamb: sure.

Tony Arsenal: So please stick with us. Please come back next week. Um, and you know, if, if this is something that's been edifying to you, beyond donating on Patreon or joining our Telegram chat, we would also really just love it if you would just share this episode with someone that you think it would benefit.

Um, we do this because we love the Lord Jesus and because we're passionate about His Word- Mm ... and we're passionate about theology. And we don't spend a dime on advertising, so your Patreon dollars aren't going to that. Um, uh, but what we do want you to do is we want the, we want people to find the podcast because someone else thinks it's beneficial to them, and it starts a conversation.

So if this episode or any of the episodes has been productive and fruitful for you, we would love it if you would just take a minute, do it right through your phone, share it [01:04:00] to somebody that you know that you think would benefit from it or who would enjoy it. And you know, I think that's really all we have tonight, Jesse, so I think until next time, honor everyone.

Jesse Schwamb: Love the brotherhood.

In their 500th episode, Tony Arsenal and Jesse Schwamb celebrate a decade of The Reformed Brotherhood by diving into one of Scripture's most overlooked parables — the Parable of the Growing Seed in Mark 4:26–29. Exclusive to Mark's Gospel, this four-verse passage packs a theological punch that is, as Tony and Jesse argue, unmistakably Reformed in its emphasis. The man scatters seed, goes about his life, and the earth produces — by itself — without his understanding or intervention. From this, the hosts draw out rich implications for evangelism, sanctification, ecclesiology, and eschatology. They argue that the kingdom of God advances by divine power alone, hidden from human sight, moving toward a certain consummation. The episode pairs deep theological reflection with the hosts' characteristic warmth, humor, and 10 years' worth of shared history.

Key Takeaways

• Monergism is embedded in the parable itself. The growth of the seed is entirely God's doing. The man scatters and rests; the earth produces by itself — a picture of divine sovereignty that requires no human management or comprehension.
• The evangelist's only obligation is to scatter. This parable relieves believers of the anxious burden of producing spiritual fruit. Faithfulness in proclamation is the call; growth belongs to God.
• Sanctification is gradual, hidden, and God's work. The progression — blade, ear, full grain — mirrors the believer's sanctification, which proceeds by degrees imperceptible to the individual yet certain in God's design.
• The Kingdom of God is not dependent on any individual. Whether it's a ministry leader, a financial contributor, or a worship musician, no single human agent is load-bearing for the advance of God's kingdom.
• Primary and secondary causation work together without contradiction. God uses means — the farmer still sows, the earth still functions — but the means are instrumental, not efficient causes. God's providence encompasses and exceeds them.
• The harvest belongs to God, not the evangelist. Just as the man did not direct the growth, he is not the agent ultimately putting in the sickle. The consummation of the kingdom occurs in God's time and by God's initiative.
• This parable resists reduction. It cannot be flattened into a simple evangelism lesson or a single eschatological statement. It holds together personal sanctification, corporate ecclesiology, and cosmic eschatology within four verses.

Key Concepts The Earth Produces By Itself: Monergism in the Parable

The theological center of this parable is the Greek word automate — the earth produces "by itself," without external compulsion or human assistance. Tony and Jesse argue this is not incidental language but the thesis of the entire passage. The farmer is genuinely active — he scatters the seed — but his agency recedes almost immediately from view. He doesn't monitor the soil, apply nutrients, or trace the growth. He simply lives his life. This picture coheres precisely with the Reformed doctrine of monergism: that in regeneration and kingdom growth alike, the decisive cause lies entirely outside human capacity. As Jesse puts it, the mechanism of growth "belongs to God alone." The farmer's ignorance is not a failure — it is the point. We are not meant to understand the how; we are meant to trust the Who.

Scatter, Then Rest: A Theology of Evangelism Without Anxiety

One of the episode's most practically rich applications concerns the posture believers are called to adopt in evangelism. Tony observes that this parable is rarely preached as an encouragement to evangelists, yet that is precisely what it is. The sower's only active verb is scattering. After that, he sleeps and rises — the rhythms of ordinary life — while God does the work that no human strategy, method, or persistence can accomplish. This directly addresses what Tony calls the "anxiety around trying to ensure some sort of production." The Reformed vision of evangelism is not passive indifference but liberated faithfulness: scatter the seed of the gospel without bearing the impossible weight of manufactured outcomes. As Paul writes in 1 Corinthians 3:6–7, "Neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God who gives the growth."

Blade, Then Ear, Then Grain: The Patience of Providence

The threefold progression Jesus describes — blade, then ear, then full grain — is not decorative agricultural detail. It is a theological statement about the character of God's work in the world and in the soul. Growth is gradual, ordered, and unhurried. Jesse draws the direct application to sanctification: the believer cannot fully trace the work of grace in his own heart, yet it is real and it is God's doing. This ought to produce, as Jesse summarizes, "patient confidence rather than human striving or anxiety." The church, too, matures through stages. Neither impatience with slowness nor despair at imperceptibility is warranted — both misread the nature of divine providence. God is not behind schedule. He is, as always, working through means, in His time, toward a consummation He has already appointed.

Memorable Quotes

The earth produces by itself — we might even say the kingdom of God produces by itself. It's not dependent on anything except God's sovereign will and his sovereignty to execute all that he desires. - Tony Arsenal

The mechanism of growth is strangely hidden from the human agent, and it belongs to God alone. - Jesse Schwamb

The kingdom of God advances by God's own hidden power toward a certain appointed consummation — and this ought to produce patient confidence rather than human striving or anxiety. - Jesse Schwamb

Full Transcript

Jesse Schwamb: Welcome to the 10th Pentacost episode of the [00:01:00] Reformed Brotherhood. It's number 500. I'm Jesse

Tony Arsenal: and I'm Tony, and this is the podcast that's been going for 10 years. Hey, brother.

Jesse Schwamb: Hey, brother. A happy 500th episode to you.

Tony Arsenal: I know, man. It's kinda crazy. It's kinda crazy, and we're not gonna do anything special 'cause we don't do that, but it is crazy that this is the 500th episode.

That's a lot of podcasting.

Jesse Schwamb: It's absolutely wild.

Podcast Memories And Mishaps

Jesse Schwamb: And as with any milestone, as I was thinking about this one occurring, it did draw my mind to all the crazy things that have happened on this podcast, some known, some unknown. Of course, there is the very infamous time that I spilled a whole bottle of kombucha on the desk while we were recording, but everybody knows about that.

But I was, I was also thinking about the, the lesser-known ones, like the time you and I sat in the downstairs church, like so close to each other on the same side of the table- Yeah ... to record a episode, or the time [00:02:00] that a tow truck showed up while we were recording and I had to go run out and direct the tow truck 'cause I'd called it for the car.

Tony Arsenal: Yeah.

Jesse Schwamb: And you paused the episode so that we could go do that, or the time that we had our favorite Lutherans on the podcast in what I think was, like, the hottest environment, and I just remember the sweat trickling down Chad Bird's beard. Like, like, like air being- Like the oil gloss ... mixed with oil. Yeah.

It was so hot. So those are the ones that come to my mind. I don't know if there are any ones that come to you. We- we've had some great episodes, and by the way, they all live out for free in the world on reformedbrotherhood.com. So don't take our word for it. You can go all the way back to the beginning if you really want to, and you can hear this incredible journey that God has had us on these some 10 years.

So I'm curious, like, do any episodes, topics, conversations, weird things come to your mind after all this time?

Tony Arsenal: Uh, the one I remember is when we recorded with Dad and we were waiting for the snow, the [00:03:00]snowplow- ... and we had to, like, wrap the episode up real quick because the snowplow was there and we had to go move cars.

That's right. So there's been a fair amount of episodes where it's like something has interrupted us and we need to just get it over with real quick. That's right. Um, hopefully the listener doesn't hear that too much.

Patreon Support Check In

Tony Arsenal: The other thing I was thinking about, you know, just as we're kinda thinking about the back catalog, we're not great at this.

Uh, we tend to do our, what, what's they call the call to action. The experts call it the call to action. We do it at the very end of our podcast episodes, which is the worst place to do it. Uh, but we're gonna try to land it in the beginning here. So we, we've been supported by a number of, of people, uh, for basically the entire podcast.

I don't remember exactly how early on it was that we started doing Patreon, but it's, it's been a long time. And what I noticed the other day, I went in to, to check on a couple things and make sure everything was working the way it's supposed to. There was some, like, account merge I had to do, and I've noticed that several people who've been supporting us, um, pretty much since the beginning- have their accounts listed in a declined status.

[00:04:00] And what that means is that their, probably their credit card that they use, uh, has expired, and so now they're not, no longer supporting the show even though they think they are. So if you are a person who believes you're supporting the show, particularly if you've been supporting the show for a long time, and you wanna continue to support the show, uh, we would really appreciate if you took a minute to go into your Patreon account, double-check that the, you know, that you've been, um, contributing for the last couple months.

Uh, double-check that the credit card you have on file is not, uh, expired or suspended or anything like that. Um, again, if you've made a decision that it's time to stop, uh, stop the show, or if this is the point where you realize, "I don't care enough to re-support to the show," um, that's fine. We love you.

We've appreciated your support. We hope you keep listening. Uh, but if you do wanna continue to contribute, please do check that. And if you've never taken a chance to think through whether or not you want to support the show, uh, Jesse and I are so thankful for all the support we have.

Jesse Schwamb: Yes.

Tony Arsenal: Uh, but things are getting more expensive, and, um, you know, that's, that's [00:05:00] just a reality for all of us, and that includes things like podcasting hosting fees.

Um, the cost of our, our editing software that we use has gone up. That's a subscription. Uh, the cost of hosting space has gone up. Um, all of that, uh, all of that has gone up, and so even though we've had steady supporters, it's kinda like we have lost supporters, um, financially because the money doesn't go quite as far.

So if you've ever thought, "Maybe I should, uh, maybe I should contribute to the podcast," please do think about it. Even if just, uh, half of our audience went in and contributed $1 a month, um, that would be a substantial amount. That would really help us to keep the podcast going. And there's actually a number of projects and things Jesse have I, and I have wanted to do, um, that we would love to be able to, you know, to take a step on.

Uh, we just don't have funding to do it, uh- Right ... because the funding we have is enough to keep the podcast going but not enough to stretch to something else. So I don't wanna, like, preload that too much, 'cause who knows if it's gonna happen, but there's some things that we wanna do [00:06:00] that would involve a little bit of upfront capital that we would need- Right

to get some contrib- contributions on. So please do consider that. We appreciate you so much if you've been a supporter. We appreciate you so much if you've even considered it. Uh, and we appreciate you so much just for listening, uh, especially- Yes ... if you've been with us, you know, this is episode 500.

That's a lot of podcasting- Yeah, it is ... directly in your ear hole. So thank you so much for that.

Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, we're so grateful.

Why We Keep Doing This

Jesse Schwamb: It's fun just to think how many episodes we recorded, but also how many interesting conversations and topics, all the inside jokes. It really is a community. That's in part why we started this, is to sit down together and to bring other brothers and sisters into the fray, as it were, or maybe to bring us into your fray a little bit and to encourage and edify the church, the brothers and sisters, the saints around the world.

And it is an around the world kinda podcast, which is remarkable too. So- Yes ... we're just gonna keep being here. As long as the Lord tarries and He allows us to do this, we'll just keep doing it. And again, we've recorded in closets, in cars on the way to things. We've done it at [00:07:00] the beach, and we've done it in cold environs, and we've done it in hot environs.

And you're right, you reminded me of that time where we were desperately waiting as we were getting snowed in for the plow to come. And then it was all hands on deck, and we just dropped the recording equipment and said, "We gotta get out of here." And more often than not, the p- joy of this podcast is it just kinda finds its way into our normal rhythm of life.

But it- Yeah ... comes out of our life, and out of a life that's been transformed by Christ. And so that's really what we come back to.

Mark Only Parable Preview

Jesse Schwamb: In fact, that's the whole thing that we're in right now. We're going through all these parables. And this episode, we can't stop, won't stop. We're gonna continue to hit you with the content that we love, which is talking about Jesus.

And so we're in one of the few... Well, it's a Markan parable that only appears in Mark. That's why I called it Markan, I guess. So extra bonus points to you, that's both extra and bonus, if you know which one it is before I say it. But there's a lot for us to talk about- ... because we're getting into this really, really short little story, but it's really chock-full, of course, as Jesus likes to do with all [00:08:00] kinds of spiritual truth.

It's about a farmer chucking a seed on the ground, and then he goes about his business. He eats, he sleeps, he binge-watches the Jane equivalent of Netflix. He sleeps again, he wakes up. And while he does this, the seed is doing entirely its own thing without his help or understanding. He didn't make it grow.

He can't explain how it grows. He just shows up at the end with a sickle to collect what God has already finished. Man, if there isn't a Reformed theological parable, I don't know what one is. Yeah. So we're gonna get to all of that on this 500th episode. I mean, it's something to be saying that even the US is only 250 years old, and-

we've already recorded twice as many podcasts as there are years of experience in the US. But besides all of that, it wouldn't be- It's like- ... Reformed Brotherhood-

Tony Arsenal: I don't know if you've seen this. That reminds me of those things online where it's like, like, "Elon Musk is a billi- is a trillionaire. That means he could give every person on earth $1 billion- Oh, yeah

and still would be a multi-billionaire." And you're like, "That's, that's not mathematically true." 'Cause when [00:09:00]you said that, I was like, "You mean the podcast is older than the country?"

Jesse Schwamb: Oh, math. I have a feeling we're gonna come back to that. Oh, math.

Tony Arsenal: Oh, math.

Affirm Or Deny Segment

Jesse Schwamb: Now, of course, if you listen for any length of time, you know it wouldn't be an episode if we didn't have a time of affirming with or denying against.

Of course, that is that time where we pick something that we like, we think everybody should be a part of, that we wanna recommend, and we affirm with it. Or on the opposite, instead we say, "We deny against this thing because it's just no good." So Tony, on this 500th episode, I'm just gonna keep saying it over and over again, so lest the listeners forget, what are you affirming with or denying against?

Tony Arsenal: Yeah.

Scammer Payback Recommendation

Tony Arsenal: I'm affirming, um, a little YouTube channel that I found. Uh, it takes a little bit of setup to explain it, but the, the channel is called Scammer Payback. Ooh. Um, and it's, it's a... I think most people have probably seen, like, the Gene Fieith- Gene Veith, um, like, where he, he gets a, some sort of scammer on the phone, and he sorta just, like, [00:10:00] trolls them and makes, kinda makes them sound dumb and, you know, pretends to play along just to see how long he can keep them on the phone.

Those are really funny. These are funny, but they're on a whole different level of seriousness, which is a weird sentence. Um, basically what this is is a group of professional hackers, um, and there's, this is a serious kinda sting operation they have going. They don't use their real names on the channel.

Um, there's one, there's one, um, where they interview, like, a social, um, a social engineer whose job is to... Her- she is a person who basically, uh, does social hacking, and she helps companies who, who their security people think, like, their executives are, um, susceptible to social engineering, social hacking.

She'll actually call and, like, mess around with the CEOs and socially hack them. Um, they interviewed her, and the first thing she said when she sat down was the person she was talking to's first name, and the guy was just stunned. He's like, "I- we- we've never used my first name on the channel before." So they're very serious, and what they do is they identify [00:11:00] a scam or a g- usually a group of scammers, and they'll actually hack into and infiltrate the computer systems that they're using.

And so they show you everything that they're doing. Um, they're, they're explaining the scam and how it's run. Um, and a lot of times they're actually actively intervening in, uh, in a scam, trying to stop a scam that's in progress because somebody is about to lose a lot of money.

I mean, I think one of the things that's important about this is our audience, you know, mostly, mostly guys probably, like, age, I don't know, late 20s, early 30s, maybe early 40s, we kind of grew up and lived, lived in a world most of our adult lives or all of our adult lives where, like, fishing schemes and other kinds of, like, um, data s- data theft, like, that was just in the air.

It was just normal. So we're... It's not like we're immune to it, but we're used to it, and we're ready for it, and we're looking for it. That means that most of us have parents that are in a generation who are particularly susceptible to this. [00:12:00] So I think it would be worth, worth people's time to take a look at this, uh, just as a educational piece, and then, yes, share it with your family members who are in this era.

People get taken for a ton of money. Yeah. The reason that these older generation sort of bu- builder Boomer generations are targeted is not just because they're somewhat soft targets, but they also have the money. Um, most of, most of the wealth in our country is possessed by people in that generation.

It's just an economic fact in a lot of places and a lot of areas, and so that's why they're targeted. So take a little bit of time, watch the show. It's... And it's entertaining. It's really well produced. It's funny. These are non-Christians, you know, who are, are being non-Christian, so there's a fair amount of salty language, especially when they're interacting directly with the scammers that they absolutely hate.

Um, but it's, it's worth watching. And, and it... I think it'll... I think it's entertaining. Most of the time it's like a 15-minute video, so it's not too much of your time. Pop that on two times [00:13:00] speed on YouTube and, and you're all set.

Jesse Schwamb: And when you say salty you're not talking about Salty the Singing Songbook, right?

Tony Arsenal: Correct. Yeah. Not P-S-A-L-T-Y. S-A-L-T-Y.

Jesse Schwamb: Just in case. I wouldn't want any of the loved ones to go and just be waiting for Salty to show up, like, in the mid- Which would be kind of epic in the midst of this, like, scamming shutdown, the sting operation. Like, Salty s- pops up and starts singing about restorative justice and- Yeah

what it means that God restores all things. I mean, that would have a good place in this, but I just want that just to be clear. We don't, we don't want anybody to, to at us on that.

Tony Arsenal: Yeah, for sure. Well, Jesse, what are you affirming or denying tonight?

Jesse Loves Algebra

Jesse Schwamb: I'm going to return to that beautiful intro you gave about mathematics and the whole Elon Musk thing.

And so my affirmation is simply, like, just do... Just enjoy all the math you can. Use all the math that you know. So my wife and I were watching some kind of program on YouTube, and it was a program in which there are a couple [00:14:00]people competing in this kind of escape room situation, and as escape rooms are want to do, there came some kind of small math problem.

And it goes something like this, is the best I can remember it. It was what number between one and nine when it is tripled and five is added to it is the same as that number being doubled and having one added to it? Now, as soon as that problem was read, we were watching intently, and I turned to my wife and I said, "Why do they need to say it's between, like, one and nine?"

And she goes, "Well, how else would they know what the number was?" And I was like, "Well, like, this is a beautiful little algebra thing, like se- series of equations. Like, you have two equations here." And she's like... Just gave me a blank look. So I was like, "Oh, man." So she's like, "Okay. Do it then. Do it." So I was like, "Give me a piece of paper."

So I, I was just like, this is gonna be such a beautiful thing. So I was like, "All this is, is, like, it's basically 3x minus five equals 2x plus one. You're solving for whatever this missing number is, and they've given you this beautiful setup, [00:15:00] which you rarely get in real life, but this beautiful setup is a system of equations.

We have two things you know are gonna turn out to be the same. They've just been said in different ways, and that allows you enough space to figure out how to solve for them using a little bit of algebra." So I realized then this is why they said between one and nine, because the contestants then proceeded just to iteratively pick numbers until they found the answer, which is not a bad way.

Like, that's a way to use, like, all the math you have. Certainly, that's a way. But I showed her how it was like, this is the answer, six, and you don't even need to know where to start because you don't need to start anywhere. You can actually figure this out. Still not really impressed. And then she said something to me that just, like, kind of rocked my world.

I said, like, "Well, I'm sure this is familiar to, with, to you." And she's like, "Oh, yeah. Like, I learned algebra." And she goes, "Yeah, I, I know algebra. I just don't do it anymore. I just don't use it anymore." And I was like What, what I heard was, like, basically her saying to me, "I used to brush my teeth, but I just don't do it [00:16:00] anymore."

'Cause I was like, "This is such a beautiful thing." So then I got it in my head, well, well here's the problem. It's just a matter of seeing the results. So I was like, "Well, here's the amazing thing is yes, these are abstract concepts. Yes, it's like each of those is a function. It's, it's a representation of what he just said in the problem.

But," and this is my grave mistake, Tony. But I was like, "Really, Descartes showed us that we can think about these not as abstractions, but we can plot them geometrically as lines on a Cartesian plane." And so I was like, "Really we can show that these are two lines and they have a relationship together." And then I was like, "Guess where they intersect?

Guess where they intersect?" And she's like, "I w- that's impossible to even know. I have no idea where they intersect." I was like, "No, no. Just, just based on what we're saying, the beauty of this is they have a relationship. They're gonna come together at some point, like you and I in life. They're gonna, they're gonna come together.

Guess where that would be?" And she's like, "That would be impossible to know." And I was like, "It's not, actually." So I showed her that, you know, left and right, up and down, X and Y, however you wanna speak [00:17:00] about it, those two lines are gonna intersect, at least on the X. The X spot is gonna be the number six.

It's the same thing. Still nothing. So after all of that, I just appreciate my wife is such a brilliant lady, that she just doesn't need algebra. She goes through life just, like, crushing problems without... Like, because she'd like to do it, I think, just the, the more challenging, difficult, iterative way. And, uh, she doesn't use algebra anymore.

Just no need for it. So in many ways I respect that. In other ways, again, the affirmation is like, use all the math you have available to you because it's a beautiful thing. I think basically at the end of that I ended up in, like, a very supreme place of doxology, and my wife was like, "Can we just go back to watching TV now?"

So but I, I have to say, like, and I, I know you, you share my appreciation for math and stuff like this. Like, it's not even just puzzles. It's just the beauty that, like, we can do this, and that there's such a created order, like a supremely created order, that these rules of ma- mathematics aren't just impounded.

They're like the fabric in which God has, [00:18:00] has basically woven all of reality such that we can do this kind of thing, and that even a simple problem in escape room can lead us to appreciate how intensely ordered and beautiful the world is, that we can go after knowledge and solve for explicit things that seem abstract beyond our comprehension and reason to begin with, but have been brought to a place we might understand them.

That is, like, an insanely glorious thing to me. So algebra is great, loved ones. I've recommended before, but the side affirmation is go to Khan Academy if you wanna brush up on your algebra skills. I think algebra is, like, some of the most beautiful and intensely practical math ever. I love calculus, but calculus you don't get a lot of, like, use.

You can use algebra to solve all kinds of things, whether it's like tips or... Like, it's gonna save you so much time. If you're ever in escape room, I'm just telling you, do not do this iteratively. Just get the, your system of equations down, and you will be, like, tearing out of that room, and then you'll look like a hero.

Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah.

Math In Everyday Life

Tony Arsenal: I mean, I think, like, even the f- even the, the... How do I wanna say this delicately? Uh, [00:19:00] even the idea that we, quote, "don't use algebra" means people don't actually understand that we're using algebra all the

Jesse Schwamb: time.

Tony Arsenal: Exactly. Right. Like, I could buy I don't use calculus or I don't use trigonometry- Right

or even I don't use geometry. Um, but to say I don't use algebra, like just basic. I mean, I know like basic equations are, I guess, technically arithmetic, but like how many times does someone have to, have to go, "All right, the tip, the, the bill is X number of dollars. The bill is-" Right ..."$100, and I wanna give a 15% tip, so what's the outcome?"

Like, that's an algebraic equation, right? That's right. Um, or a more, I think a more common one would be like, "All right, the bill is this amount. I want my, uh, my final amount that I give billed to me to be an even number."

Jesse Schwamb: Right. "

Tony Arsenal: And I also want to give at least 15%, 20%, whatever percent, so what's the number I need to use in order to get to a bill that is, or a [00:20:00] tip that is both 15% or higher and results..."

Like, all of those things are algebraic equations.

Jesse Schwamb: Yes.

Tony Arsenal: So I think, yeah. I mean, even like, "I need to get to work by such and such a time. What time do I need to leave?" Right. "I know it takes-" Exactly. "... a certain amount of time." Right. So I think we, we all use algebra a lot more than we, we probably realize, and I think you're right.

Like, when people say, "Well, I don't use my math anymore," what they're saying is like, "I don't use, I don't use the stuff that I had to show my work on anymore." Right. "I don't use the stuff that I have to do on paper anymore." But, um, it's funny, we had a, a conversation, by the way, Reformed Tele- Reformed Brotherhood Telegram chat is a thing.

Uh, we had a conversation in the Reformed Brotherhood Telegram chat a little while ago. One of our members was trying to figure out some sort of, like- And it was a problem having to do with like a, an air conditioning throttle or whatever it's called. Some sort of like programming in an air conditioner.

And we went through it, we figured out that one of the like relatively complex parts of the equation that he was trying to figure out actually no matter what values you [00:21:00] put in, uh, equated to one. And then the other one was like it was ti- and then it was times one. So it was like whatever you put in ended up to that times one was the rest of the equation.

It was like a huge, or like a relatively large equation that resolved down to one. So it was like you're trying to figure out all this complicated math and really like that entire, uh, that entire complicated equation was doing nothing in the rest of the equation. Nice. It was doing absolutely nothing. Um, so we were able to sort of like figure out, all right, well now all we need to do is figure out what, what this relationship does.

Right. Um, and even something like in that particular situation, there were some values that the equation couldn't possibly balance. Which again, you could plot that on a graph and see like there's a spot... I don't, I'm, I'm making this up, but I think this is probably not wrong. There's a spot where it's like this is a parabolic equation, and so at some point the parable, or the par- parable, I didn't even mean to do that.

There we go. At some point the [00:22:00] parabola goes back up, and so like there is no point- Right ... when it reaches this number. So values that would be in that, in that zone or in that range- Right ... they, they don't work in the equation. So yeah, I think math, uh, algebra is, uh, you know, basic arithmetic obviously is, is relatively straightforward.

Algebra's probably the most simple, uh, form of math that your average person uses on a regular basis.

Jesse Schwamb: For sure.

Trigonometry And Design

Tony Arsenal: But it's funny, I remember the first time, um, the very first time that I realized trigonometry was not just some abstract thing that we would never use. And it's so funny, 'cause it's like the nerdiest, the nerdiest example.

I was playing a tabletop RPG with my friends, we were in high school, and we were, we were learning trigonometry at the time. I was playing a tabletop RPG, and we were trying to figure out- Um, it was a, it was like a futuristic tabletop RPG, so we were using like, like laser guns or something like that that have a certain range.

And we were trying to figure out if the thing that was flying in the air from us was within range or not.

Jesse Schwamb: Nice.

Tony Arsenal: And what we realized [00:23:00] is that's just a quadratic equation, right? Right, it is. I just need to calculate. I know how far away it is from me in a straight line, I know how high in the air it is, so I need to just- Right

now I need to... Or not, not the quadratic. That's Pythagoras' theorem, right? Yep. I need to calculate the Pythag- or the, um, the hypotenuse.

Jesse Schwamb: I'm with you. I

Tony Arsenal: knew where you were going. Yeah. So, like, I remember distinctly, I, I mean, I remember where I was sitting in my friend's basement going, "Oh, my goodness, trigonometry actually has a practical application here."

Um, you know, whether that's figuring out how much rope I need to be able to, to attach to a tree and still be able... Like, all of these different things ultimately are math, and, or as the, the Brits say, are maths. And, uh, the, it, it's just a beautiful thing. And I think you're right, like, this is evidence that the universe has a structure- And a designer because- Right

you can describe the universe using this- Nice ... sort of universal numerical language that, um, in, for the most part, describes everything we can [00:24:00] see. I mean, obviously, like, they're still learning things. They're still figuring things out. But what we can see with our senses, we can also describe with math on some level.

Even something like the colors that we see can be reduced to a, a number, a frequency, a wavelength. So yeah, I'm with you. Use your algebra. Find ways to use it.

Jesse Schwamb: Use it. It's the... I like what you said, that we're using it. We just don't realize it. There's a spiritual lesson in there, I think, as well, that it's, it's present all around us, and it's...

I like what you said. It's, like, the, the most, like, grabbable. It's the thing that's pretty easy to grasp, yet has, like, some beautiful outworkings that are super complex. All the time I love to, like, mess with people, even people who are, like, say, like, "Oh, I'm not into math." I'm like, "That's okay." Like, it's...

You're, you're living in a mathematical world, and you're certainly using it, but that, that's okay.

Imaginary Numbers Wonder

Jesse Schwamb: But like, sometimes I'll just say to somebody, like, "How do you know, like actually know that, like a negative number times a negative number is a positive number?" Like, who came up with that, and how do you know?

And why are we just trusting him? Why can't somebody just say, "You know what? For me, it's not. I'm gonna make that a [00:25:00] negative number"? And w- the reason is because algebra provides... There's a lot of proofs, but algebra provides the most simple, beautiful proof. And then once you, once you basically contravene that law, like, everything falls apart.

I- it's... And the question we should be asking is why does everything fall apart if we contravene one simple law, wh- which is two negative numbers multiplied, the product of them has to be, must be, is always a positive number. And that's, like, not even getting into, like, the more crazy things. Like, everybody should go look up, like, what imaginary numbers are.

That will kind of mess with your mind, but then we found ways to use imaginary numbers, which are exactly what they sound like- Yeah ... to solve, like, incredible problems. Where does that come from? It comes from the Lord. It comes from God's, like, creative ability that He's placed in mankind to go after and to take a dominion over the knowledge and the creative order in such a complex and creative way.

It mimics and mirrors the creativity of our Heavenly Father, and it is altogether beautiful. So on this- Yeah ... 500 episode that has a lot of numbers associated with it, I [00:26:00] say go love the numbers. Go enjoy them. Wherever you are in life, whatever your enjoyment of math is, big or small, go try to find some way to enjoy it today.

Tony Arsenal: Can I, can I throw in a, a weird relevant sub-affirmation to your affirmation? I

Jesse Schwamb: mean, please.

Tony Arsenal: This is our show, so I'll do what I want to. You can do what you want. First, when you say we live in a mathematical world, all I could think of was some Perry song of Material Girl. Material

Jesse Schwamb: World?

Tony Arsenal: Yeah.

Odd Squad Math

Tony Arsenal: I am a mathematical boy, and I live in a ma- Anyway, um, there is a show that I watch with August, my son, who is almost five.

Uh, he'll be five in March. And, um, it's called Odd Squad. And what Odd Squad is, is it's a sort of a s- like a spy-themed kids show with a touch of like, uh, almost like Twilight Zone. Like, there's so- It's they manage odd. Like, they're the Odd Squad because they, they respond to odd emergencies, so it's a lot of like weird monsters and aliens and like time travel paradoxes and strange stuff.

But the answer [00:27:00] to the problem is always related somehow to a math principle. So they will talk about how like multiplication is just addition like many times over.

Jesse Schwamb: Sure.

Tony Arsenal: And that's actually why multiplying a negative number times a negative number is a positive number or, you know, like, or multiplying by a negative number is a negative number, right?

And that's because like really what you're doing if you multiply two, uh, two times negative three is you're subjecting, you're subtracting two from two from two, which gives you, you know- Right ... a negative number. So it's, it's not, uh, it, it's for kids, but I actually have realized that I understand math better-

because of watching the show.

Jesse Schwamb: I

Tony Arsenal: love it. And it's because they break it down in, you know, the, the audience- Yes ... the target audience is a little bit older than August. I think the target audience is probably like six to seven, maybe eight years old. Um, and so they're talking about math principles geared towards those groups.

But they'll talk about things like [00:28:00] using a number line to be able to understand math, and so like visualizing it. Or they'll talk about how multiplication is really just groups of things. So yeah, check it out.

Why Math Matters

Tony Arsenal: And again- Algebra is probably the most, uh, easy to grab of the disciplines, but that's because that's the one we are using every day all the time.

Tony Arsenal: And we don't realize it. But again, like, calculus is a beautiful, a beautiful thing. Um, and there are some amazing things that exist in the world that can really only be understood and described in a certain sense by something like calculus or trigonometry. Um, my favorite, I, I wish I had, like, kept it up, but one of my favorites is geometry 'cause I think a lot of it is, that's, like, the closest to puzzles.

Yes. Um, uh, so, like, I, I used to love doing proofs and axioms and stuff. So, and then of course logic is technically related to math. It's a related discipline to math- It is ... in that it, it's, it's actually, like, the language that underlies a lot of the mathematics is [00:29:00] logical formulas. So it's all relevant.

It's all beautiful. It all describes God's creation, and it all redounds to His glory.

Jesse Schwamb: You got that right.

Mark Growing Seed

Jesse Schwamb: And speaking of both His creation and His glory, and Jesus teaching of both of those things, we are, as we promised, hanging out in the Book of Mark, and we've got just four sentences. And what I love about this parable that we're about to read is it fits in so perfectly with something I think you and I have been saying from the very beginning, which is it's tempting when we think about the parables to consider, like, a single element or to distill them down to, like, a single word and say, "We hear the kingdom of God is this thing, this noun, this object, this person."

But instead, the case we've been making is it's actually generally a series of verbs, or in this case, it's the whole four verses that Jesus is gonna give to us here. So let me just read Mark 4:26-29. That's all it is, loved ones. And it's a good thing because we're already knee-deep into this 500th episode.

So this goes by various names. I've heard it called, [00:30:00] like, the Parable of the Growing Seed, or sometimes people call it, like, the Parable of the, The Secret Seed. I'm not sure that's really secret, but I suppose the increase is secret in a way, and that's really what Jesus is communicating to us in these verses.

So Mark 4:26: "And Jesus was saying, 'The kingdom of God is like a man who casts seed upon the soil, and he sleeps and he rises night and day, and the seed sprouts and grows, how he himself does not know. The soil produces crops by itself, first the blade, then the head, then the mature grain in the head. But when the grain is ripe, he immediately puts in the sickle because the harvest has come.'"

Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah, this is, um, an interesting parable, and I'll be the first to admit, like, when you said, "Well, why don't we do the king- the parable of the growth next?" I was like, "I don't actually know what Jesse's talking about." So if you're in the same boat as I am and [00:31:00] you, uh, you are like, "Wait, there's the... This is a parable?

Like, this exists in the Bible?" Um, you're not alone, and I think part of the reason is that, one, it's so short, but it also sort of, like, connects into the next parable thematically. I don't know necessarily- Hmm ... about the content and the meaning, but thematically it sort of blends into the next parable, which is the parab- Mark's version of, um, of the parable of the mustard seed.

So it's, it's hard to delineate unless you're really thinking about it, but I'm glad that we're talking about it because I think this is probably one of those parables that doesn't get a lot of attention because it's so short and because it is, um, it is sort of thematically in a spot where I think it does sort of, I don't know, like seep into the next- Right

parable.

Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, there's a tendency because you're right, it's sandwiched between the Parable of the Sower and the Parable of the Mustard Seed, both of which we've talked about from Matthew's perspective, that it seems like maybe the theme is redundant, but [00:32:00] it is altogether different with the emphasis. Uh, there, it's true I guess that all three of these parables are addressing that same underlying question the disciples in the early church were asking, which is, if Jesus truly inaugurates the Kingdom of God, then why does it seem so impressive?

Why is it so slow or hidden in contrast to all the expectations that the Jews had for what they thought would be this dramatic, immediately visible rain? And so I like that there is a lot said within four verses. And again, from our perspective, this thing seems so distinctly reformed in its under- Yeah

of course the whole Bible is that way, but maybe nothing more so than this, especially because we'll get to it, but the center of this parable being, and there's various translations, that this guy doesn't even know. He doesn't understand. He's totally ignorant to what is going on, and isn't that... I, I mean, I can only speak for my own test- that's the story of my life, uh, spiritually and otherwise.

That again, if you wanna talk about God doing all the verbs, I guess Mark had it first. I thought maybe I coined that, but [00:33:00] turns out that Mark, well, actually Jesus, the Son of God himself, says it best here. So let, let's get into this because the beautiful thing is you and I can handle theoretically in the time allotted here, like three or four verses.

That, that's theoretically possible for us to do, but we, we're only gonna h- see how far it goes. Um-

Tony Arsenal: Yeah ...

Hidden Kingdom Growth

Jesse Schwamb: I think the first thing to say here is that we get that beautiful characteristic, like formula, like the controlling paradigm. It's that Kingdom of God again. And a- as I kinda set up, it's the Kingdom of God, though, launched into a bunch of, uh, verbs.

Uh, this idea of like him casting, and then him sleeping, and then him waiting, and then him getting up, and then the growth happens, and then he comes again at the end, this character, this farmer, into kind of the consummation of that kingdom. And I think there's a lot here that's maybe to explain that tension.

The kingdom is real and active. It's irresistibly moving towards some kind of fixed end, but it does not appear in its final glory, and that is something you kind of get with the other two parables. [00:34:00] But here it's just like so lovely. It's right in front of you. That, that's like the whole emphasis and thrust of what Jesus seems to be saying in this.

Tony Arsenal: Yeah, and I think this one's interesting because, you know, generally in the parables, at least in, in... I, I would have to do a little bit more study to know if this is, like, distinctly Markan or whatnot. But in the, the, um, Matthew's parables, um, or Christ's parables reported in Matthew, um, primarily the main figure of the parable is, uh, is generally is God or, or more specifically is often Jesus himself.

Jesse Schwamb: Right.

Tony Arsenal: Right? But in this parable, it wouldn't make sense for us to say that somehow g- you know, God or Jesus scatters seed, and then He doesn't know that it sprouts. Right. Right? So, so the, the parable implies that the one scattering seed, and again, we don't wanna over-interpret parables. Generally speaking, parables are teaching kind of a principle of some sort, a comparison of some sort, not, it's not an allegory.

[00:35:00] In, in most cases it's not an allegory where each element has a direct representation of some sort. But it wouldn't make sense for this to be talking about God's perspective on scattering or Christ's perspective on scattering, 'cause obviously God and Jesus, even, even if we're talking about Jesus according to His humanity, um, has some sort of awareness of the workings of the Kingdom of God that is not the ignorance that the parable here seems- Right

to present of the one scattering.

Scatter Then Rest

Tony Arsenal: So I, I really do think this parable has more to say to us about- Our own perspectives on evangelism and on how the Kingdom of God will propagate. And I think, um, both in terms of, like, evangelism, there's an element here, an encouraging element of, you know, all your s- your job...

And what's really funny is I, I don't recall this parable being used in my experience to sort of [00:36:00] encourage people that all, your own, your job is just to scatter. You don't need to worry about the growth. Mm-hmm. There's a, there's a passage in Paul about one person scatters, one person waters, and God brings the growth that is often used to sort of say, like, it's not your responsibility to make sure that the, the, the, um, the bud is, you know, c- comes to flowering and to fruiting.

It's just your job to be faithful to scatter or to water or whatever step it's on. This, I think, has even more encouragement for us in that the one who scatters, um, i- is obviously God, but there's also this element that, like, we're scattering. The one scattering is not omniscient. But the one scattering, uh, he doesn't even know how or why or even that, I think, that the, um, that the f- the growth is occurring, and that's the most- Right

remarkable part of this. Like, we're not talking about a normal farmer who is aware of how growth [00:37:00] occurs, is aware of the timing. He's constantly checking. He's making sure that he's checking the soil, that he's applying manure, that he's watering the crops. This is literally like some dude who just throws seed out, and then, then just goes back to his daily business of sleeping and rising and going about his day.

And then all of the sudden, the earth, quote, "by itself produces." And I think that's the real key here is- There's something about the Kingdom of God and the seed that the Kingdom of God scatters. It's almost like the Kingdom of God itself is the one scattering here.

Jesse Schwamb: Right.

Tony Arsenal: Yep. The Kingdom of God and the seed that is scattered in and as a result of the Kingdom of God, it produces the outcome autonomously.

It doesn't require us to input into it, at least in the context of this parable. Now, again, the Parable of the Talents would be very clear to us that we can't just rest on our loyals- laurels. God expects us to work and to be fruitful for the kingdom. [00:38:00] But there is this element here of, like, you are not the one responsible for the production of the seed and the fruiting and flowering of the seed.

In fact, you're not even responsible for being aware that it occurs or how it occurs. Your only responsibility, the only active verb in this whole thing is... Well, there's a couple. The, the, the main active verb is the scattering. The other active verb is the sleeping. So, like- Right ... we, we scatter, and then we, we rest and we trust that God is going to do His work.

Jesse Schwamb: Right. Even on the face, there's so much in this that does seem mysterious. Like, if you just take this parable and think about the act of agriculture, and I sometimes think about this because I do love plants, and we have a bunch of plants in our house, and I'm horrible at trying to get them to grow. And I think about what still a mystery it is.

With all we know about science, just that you can still plant something, a seed, and water it, and the sugars will break down, and the seed will take root, and that something will grow and flower, and you think, "Oh, who is doing that?" And, and w- [00:39:00] I think we'll get into this, the first and second principles, first and second causes here, which are, I think, certainly something that Christ intends for us to consider here.

But there is this idea that the man's action is simple and passive relative to what follows. He, like you said, just scatters the seed. And he's a real agent, but as the parable unfolds, it's almost like his entire agency recedes entirely from view. And that's what kind of sets for me, like this whole trajectory of the parable.

It's that the mechanism of growth is strangely hidden from the human agent, and it belongs to God alone. And so you already stole it from me, but I'm gonna read 1 Corinthians 3:6-7, which is, coheres directly with what's happening, I think, in this parable. And this reads, or Paul writes, "I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the growth.

Neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God who gives the growth." And so there is like an extension, I think, of that application inward though as well. Kind of like when you were speaking about that, what occurred to me is that we see in the [00:40:00] farmer's like day and night unawareness, this picture, I think, of this often gradual, imperceptible work of grace in our own hearts, in every believer's heart.

Like that, that sanctification process, it proceeds by these degrees, and the Christian cannot fully trace even in himself, yet it is definitely real, and it's definitely God's doing. And then I think as well we might pull out a thread of this, you know, ecclesiological truth. You know, the church's growth is God's work, not the fruit of human strategy.

And then by application even further into that, it's based upon a soteriological one, which is like the ordo salutis, which is maybe half of every episode we've recorded talks about the ordo salutis in some ways. That too is unfolding by this divine power, and it's hidden from the creature's full comprehension, and that's consistent in this parable and in all of Scripture, that this regeneration precedes and produces faith rather than the reverse.

Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah, and I, I think too there's also an element in this passage, you know, when you think about... Uh, [00:41:00] I'm not a farmer, uh, and I, I don't know that many farmers, but when you think about how f- how modern farming works, it's very different than, uh, ancient farming, right? Historically, ancient farming was, uh, I think probably a lot of just trusting the world to do what the world does and, and trusting God to do what, what God does.

A- and I think that's probably why a lot of like- When you look at, um, pagan religion, the, the fertility cults and the sort of goddesses and gods of the harvest were all related because there was this mystery to it. And so the reason that there's so much, uh, cultic worship around fertility and harvest is because it is so mysterious, and you just kinda have to, like, trust that it's gonna happen.

Jesse Schwamb: Right.

Tony Arsenal: Right? You sow your seed in, you sow the seed of your field in, you know, the fall, uh, and, or in the, the, you know, the summer, and then you wait several [00:42:00] months and just hope that the crop comes in. And our modern agricultural world is not all that different. We have better tools and we can measure things that, like the soil, the nutrients in the soil.

We can, you know, we can do all sorts of different imaging to see of what's happening underground. But at the end of the day, even with all of the advances we have, the farmer still can't make the crop come in.

Jesse Schwamb: That's right.

Tony Arsenal: Either the crop comes in or it doesn't. And I, I think there's this element of trust here that I think is really useful for us.

And again, I think you're right. This is like, uh, it feels almost wrong to say it this way, but it's like this is a super distinctively Reformed parable. Like, of all, all of the parables in the, the Gospels, this one is like, on the face of it, a Calvinist parable. Yeah. Exactly. Like, it's like God just grows the kingdom- Yes

and nobody does anything about it.

Jesse Schwamb: Amen.

Tony Arsenal: And I don't need to go into more details than that. But there is this element for us, I think, as, uh, as those [00:43:00] who want to share the gospel, there can be an anxiety around trying to ensure some sort of production, some sort of produce, uh, and productivity from that, that is just not healthy.

And I think, you know, we, we have a responsibility as Christians, um, to be faithful and diligent in doing what God has called us to do. But if, if we read this parable as the one who scatters is sort of like the evangelist, then the only responsibility we have as evangelists, and all of us are evangelists, right, lowercase E evangelists, um, all of us, the only responsibility we have is to scatter the seed of the gospel.

Jesse Schwamb: That's

Tony Arsenal: right. And we're not responsible for the growth. We're not responsible for even really understanding how growth happens, uh, or even, even doing much about it until it's time to harvest that growth. And I think that's, we need to talk about what that means too, because again, like [00:44:00] this is a parable that I think is maybe not as, as clean and clear as some of the, uh, Methanian parables where it really does seem like there's a pretty clear symbolic representation on some things.

This one feels like it's maybe a little muddier in that, um, the main character and the role of the s- the one who's scattering seems to sort of almost shift throughout the parable, which is crazy to say because it's only like four verses long.

Tony Arsenal: But it, it does seem like at some points the scatterer is God, at other points it can't be God, and then it seems like, well, who's harvesting?

It's not really us, so it's gotta be God. So I think it's, it's important for us to hold this parable as more of a general principle about the Kingdom of God than it is about any sort of like really direct one-to-one teaching on the, on the Kingdom of God.

Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. That's a interesting distinction.

Providence And Causes

Jesse Schwamb: Here's what I would say about that, I think, is let's equate this to, like, coffee.

You like a good cup of coffee. I do. I like a good cup of coffee. I think if we were to take, let's [00:45:00] say, the Parable of the Prodigal, that would be for me like a big Dunkin' Donuts coffee. Like, it's delicious, mild-bodied, maybe a little bit light. This parable is like two shots of espresso- Yeah ... 'cause there's a lot in there, and we could probably take a lot of time even t- speaking about, like you're saying, the more shadowy eschatological truths that appear in verse 29 because those, this idea of, like, a sickle in the harvest, I mean, that's imagery drawn from Old Testament eschatological judgment texts.

So that could be pretty heavy in its own right. I think what's critical, before we get to that, is to, like, tease out something you said, which is there is a lot in here about this doctrine of providence, like, this spontaneous self-originating action apart from external human causation. And we've talked a lot, like, we distinguish between primary and second causation.

You know, the Earth is genuinely or generally has second- secondary causes, like an ordinary means through which God's ordinary providence operates, but the ultimate primary [00:46:00] cause of growth is God himself. And so here we see that. Like, there's no exclusion of the farmer's agency as an explanatory cause.

The soil does what it does because God has ordained the natural order to function in this way. That is his prerogative. And so that threefold progression then, blade, ear, full grain, which by the way I had to look up because my understanding of, like, all kinds of different types of grains is very thin and I'm out of my depth here.

But- ... I'm led to believe That that development is gradual, and of course it's ordered, but it's not instantaneous. And so the application here, I think, has traditionally been applied in this corporate individual spiritual growth we're talking about. Like, the church advances through stages of maturity, and so does the individual believer's sanctification, without warranting either impatience or despair at the process's slowness.

This is how God works. He does it in His gracious and kind way. And again, He's using this, all of this agriculture to illustrate that purpose. So there's, like, this buildup, I think, [00:47:00] in verse 28 about the incredible providence of God, both like corporatively, personally, in His world, how He is the primary cause, but also uses secondary causes, not in a disjointed or divorced way, but in a way that encapsulates and magnifies His glory.

And that is then what leads to or will lead to the reemergence in verse 29 of this whole deal of, like, well, if farmer comes back in, and now he returns, but only at the point of consummation, not at the point of growth.

Tony Arsenal: Yeah.

Harvest And Timing

Tony Arsenal: Yeah, and, you know, we won't go into all of the ways that this ties into the other parables, but it's worth, uh, it's worth mentioning that in, in both, uh, the parable of the mustard seed, which follows this, and then also the parable of the sort of sower or the seeds, um, there is this element of this, the one who is sowing seeds is not fully cognizant or aware or, and, and absolutely not in [00:48:00] control of the outcome, right?

In the parable of the sower, um, he scatters the seed promiscuously, right? And the- Right ... the outcome depends on what kind of ground the seed falls on. And in the parable of the mustard seed, it, it's more of a, like, idea that the, uh, the sower sows a seed that seems so small, but it, the growth of the seed is explosive and expansive because of the nature of the seed, not because of the skill of the sower.

Jesse Schwamb: That's

Tony Arsenal: right. Right? In this instance, um- The only thing, again, the only thing that initially the sower is responsible for is the sowing of the seed, the scattering of the seed. But what I also think is interesting is then there is a point where the one who scatters the seed is now responsible to act once he's observed the seed coming to fruition, right?

Now, now what exactly that means and how exactly that applies, I think there's a lot of different things we could talk about. Um, but again, [00:49:00] this is a parable that we have to be careful not to, uh, not to restrict just sort of crassly to, like, evangelism. Right. Exactly. Or, or even just to sort of, like, the eschatological harvest.

Right. That's what's tricky about this parable, I think, that bears ... And I don't think we'll do it, we'll do it necessarily on the show. It'd be worth having more conversations about. But for our own personal study, it bears deeper reflection because this parable cannot be simply reduced to an eschatology parable about what God does in the end.

Jesse Schwamb: Right.

Tony Arsenal: And it can't be simply reduced to a parable about evangelism because strictly speaking, like, we're not really the ones that harvest when the harvest comes in, right? I've, I have heard this parable, um, preached, you know, like I said, although I acknowledge that I, um, like forgot that it existed. I have heard this parable preached as though, like, "Well, our responsibility is to scatter seed.

We're not responsible for [00:50:00] making it grow or making it take root. But when we see that it's taking root, we're responsible for jumping in and harvesting at the right time." I don't think we should draw that conclusion here. Although the, the harvester does see that the ear is ripe, that the grain is ripe, and he harvests it, it would be a weird sort of like shift in the parable to go from the person who scattered seed isn't responsible for its growth, doesn't even know that the growth is happening, but is actually responsible for knowing exactly when to harvest the grain.

Right. So we have to think about this again in gen- in terms of general principles of how the Kingdom of God functions. And w- how it functions is it's mysterious, it is, uh, consistent, it happens on a, a scale and on a predictable outcome that we as individuals don't understand and don't have visibility to, and the harvest will occur in its [00:51:00] time, and it will h- occur consistently and reliably.

So again, like this is... I hope that maybe like the one or two non-Reformed people that listen to the show aren't terribly offended at this, but like this just is Reformed theology, right? There, there is a seed that is sown, God is responsible for the growth, and the harvest necessarily will help it happen when it's supposed to happen, right?

When the r- when the fruit is ripe, it will be harvested. That doesn't mean I'm responsible as the one who sows seed or scatters or m- witnesses to people from making sure that the, quote, "sickle is put in at the right time," or anything like that.

Jesse Schwamb: Right.

Tony Arsenal: The fact is that the sickle will always come in at the right time.

The person who has the final kinda piece of the puzzle in evangelism, I think that's how it often happens. Someone hears the gospel repeatedly from multiple places. They have contacts and relationships that tie into how they [00:52:00]ultimately come to accept the gospel and trust Christ. But ultimately it's the Holy Spirit who brings all that into some sort of coherent, um, execution and application of redemption That will happen in God's time.

So I wanna be careful not to, like, put too much responsibility on us. Right. And again, this is just a parable that I think bears a lot more reflection, that I think because, um, I think Mark in general, because it's so short, uh, gets, it gets overlooked by Christians. I think we would all do well to spend a little bit more time in Mark.

But especially some of these really short pericopes. I think we just read through it, and it's like we read a chapter of Mark, like Mark 4 comes up in our Bible reading plan. Right. And if we're reading the Bible in a year, like, Mark 4 is one of three or four chapters that we read, and this is four verses of that.

Right. We just read over it quick and we c- we just, we don't appropriate any of it.

Jesse Schwamb: Right. It sounds like he's just reiterating a point or he's recapitulating something that he's already said or is about to say, and you're like, "Okay, get on with it." But I'm with [00:53:00] you. This parable, like all of them, is for us.

It's for our joy. It's for our satisfaction and our comfort. And I think from this, there is, like, a single controlling point that's emerging from our conversation, which is the Kingdom of God advances by God's own hidden power toward a certain appointed consummation. And this ought to produce, like, patient confidence rather than human striving or a- anxiety.

In order to give us a sense of calm, a reminder that God's providence is real in all areas of life. Remarkably, we've gotten this far in the conversation, and neither of us has just, has used the M word, which just came to me, and I think we're contractually obligated to say it as a Reformed podcast, and that is this is a prime example of monergism and the sovereignty of grace.

And as in regeneration, the decisive cause of kingdom growth lies outside human capacity and comprehension. I think sometimes the latter part of that seems wrong to us. It makes us fearful because we don't understand it. But the former part should make us feel very happy and [00:54:00] relieved, that the capacity belongs to God and God alone.

That doesn't depend on me or you or anybody else that we know. And this parable, I think, is often been paired with John's image of the wind blowing where it wishes as this picture of the Holy Spirit's sovereign, untraceable operation, which is altogether glorious. And so we have that then, God doing all these things in the first and secondary causes, paired alongside of, and this is what makes it all the more glorious, this ordinary means of grace.

God doesn't bypass the means. The man still sows. The Earth still produces according to its created nature.

Tony Arsenal: Yeah.

Jesse Schwamb: But we're insisting that here, what's illustrated for us, is the means are instrumental, not efficient causes. And what that does for all of us as loved ones under Christ is it safeguards against, as you were saying, both some kind of hyper-spiritual, like, quietism.

I don't know. Like, why, why preach if God does all, all of it? And equally against a pragmatic kind of [00:55:00] activism which says, "Well, faithful technique is gonna guarantee the proper outcome here." And so instead what we get is God in his providence bringing in an inaugurated eschatology, that it is here, it is already, and yet not yet, but in his time, according to his perfection, and according to the work that he's doing at all times, in all ways, the kingdom is moving forward, both like writ large, but also, like, for you and me on a Tuesday.

Yeah. Or on the Lord's day. Like, it, it is all God's work, and what a beautiful thing that emerges from this, that we see his kingdom advancing in our own lives, in the world, and in the entire universe.

Tony Arsenal: Yeah.

Kingdom Not Us

Tony Arsenal: Yeah, and I think maybe to sort of cap this out, one, one more observation of the text here. We, and, and you and I have done it in this show, in this episode, and I think it's fine for us to talk about this sort of thinking about the seed that is scattered in relation to kind of like the individual, uh, ordo [00:56:00] salutis of, of individual people who come to faith.

But the parable itself, sort of properly speaking, is not talking about, um, individual salvation.

Jesse Schwamb: True.

Tony Arsenal: The kingdom of God itself is what's in view here as, as the fruit that is produced, right? And I think where this maybe is the most encouraging to us is I think sometimes we feel as though the, the success of the kingdom of God is somehow related to our ability to move it forward, and that can be as grandiose as thinking that, you know, you are the y- you know, you're the one who's gonna have the insight that's gonna somehow revitalize the church.

You're the next Martin Luther- Right ... or the next John Calvin, um, who John, you know, John Calvin and Martin Luther both would've told you they're not even the next Martin Luther or John Calvin. But all of that [00:57:00] aside, it can actually take a much more subtle form of thinking, like, "If I don't do this thing for my own local church, that our local church will fail," right?

Maybe you think like, "Well, if I don't take care of the worship music, then we're not gonna have worship music and the church is gonna fall apart." Or- Right ... thinking that, like, "Well, my financial contribution is, is so important that if I don't make my financial contribution, the church is going to fail."

That is just not, not generally speaking, just pragmatically is generally not true. Uh, an organization that rests on any one individual is doomed to fail anyways. So that's just pragmatically doesn't work. But even more so, the Kingdom of God as a whole and as a concept is something that God moves forward in mysterious ways, and it will necessarily come to fruition because the, quote, "Earth produces by [00:58:00] itself."

Jesse Schwamb: Right.

Tony Arsenal: Like, I think, I think sometimes parables have, like, a phrase or a line that's almost like the thesis statement. That phrase here, "The earth produces by itself"- We might be able to even say the kingdom of God produces by itself. It's not dependent on anything except God's sovereign will and his sovereignty to execute all that he desires.

That's right. And he desires the propagation of the kingdom, he desires the expansion of the kingdom for the glory of Christ Jesus so that he might be the firstborn among many brothers, right? That's just Romans 8. And this right here is the point of the parable, that although we are tools in the hand of the sower, we're seed that the sower scatters, there's no way for us to know how and when and exactly what happens as the kingdom of God grows.

And the glory of that and the, the assurance of that and the comfort of that is that we can't be responsible for something that [00:59:00] we don't know about. And so just like the sower, the man who scatters seed in this parable, we can sleep, we can rest. We, we go to sleep at night, we rise during the day, we go about our business, and the kingdom of God grows and it, it produces and we know not how.

Like, that's- Right ... that's really, like, the main punchline here. The kingdom of God produces, it grows, and we know not how, and it produces by itself. First the blade, then the ear, then the full grain in the ear, and when this is ripe, the, the Lord puts in his sickle because the harvest has come. Like, this, this is eschatology, this is evangelism, this is ecclesiology.

It's all wrapped up into one parable and four verses that I forgot even existed in the Gospel of Mark. So, like, I think this bears m- we're not gonna spend more time in the, in the show on it, I don't think, although sometimes, Jessy, as we've seen, have conversations after the show-

Jesse Schwamb: Right ...

Tony Arsenal: we decide to come back to it.

But, but I think this is one of those ones where, like, we really as a [01:00:00] community, as a Reformed community, should really think more carefully about this because it is so, so poignant, and, like, it's so short that I think we overlook it a lot of times.

Episode 500 Wrap

Jesse Schwamb: So what have we learned on this 500th episode of The Reformed Brotherhood?

Well, Mark has taught us that the kingdom of God grows by power that is genuinely at work, and yet shockingly genuinely hidden from human sight and control. That's just how it is. The sower does what is given for him to do. He scatters the seed. But that transformation of seed into blade, ear, and grain, it proceeds according to a mystery that belongs to God's providence alone.

We've learned that algebra is everywhere, and we just really ought to embrace it. That's what we ought to... We should be looking for it in all of the places as the algebra itself grows into blade, ear, and then grain, and proceeds into great and glorious thing. And we've learned that, listen, you should never be giving out any of your personal information to anybody who's asking it for you online.

Just [01:01:00] don't do that. These are the kinds of things that you can come to expect going forward on the 501st episode of The Reformed Brother. We're just gonna keep on doing what we're doing, and I think in the end, the most important thing we've learned is that God does all the work. He's done all the work in this podcast, and we are so grateful for all those who have come alongside of us in this journey with either your prayers, your conversation, your words, your critiques, your support financially.

We're all in it together, and we've learned that we're gonna just keep doing it until the Lord stops us.

Tony Arsenal: Yes. Yeah. Amen. Well, Jesse, thank you so much for this conversation. Thanks for your partnership- Oh, thank you ... on this show and in the gospel for the last 500 episodes, 10 years. It's crazy. And until 10 more years-

as we continue to do this, honor everyone.

Jesse Schwamb: Love the brotherhood [01:02:00]

In this episode of The Reformed Brotherhood, Tony Arsenal delivers a rich expository sermon on James 5:1–6, one of the most striking prophetic passages in the New Testament epistles. Drawing on the Jewish literary and cultural context of James's original audience — Jewish Christians scattered from Jerusalem by persecution — Tony unpacks why this text is not a blanket condemnation of wealth, but a devastating judgment oracle against those who hoard riches and oppress the vulnerable. Along the way, he explores the eschatological weight of accumulated wealth, the theology of God's omniscient justice, and the stunning comfort available to the suffering believer. The episode closes by returning to James's thesis: that trials of every kind, including economic oppression, can be counted as joy because of who God is and what He has done in Christ.

Key Takeaways

• James is a deeply Jewish book written to a specific audience — Jewish Christians dispersed from Jerusalem by Saul's persecution, not a general audience of wealthy or Gentile believers.
• The prophetic "Come now" signals a judgment oracle, not a direct address — James is not rebuking wealthy members of his congregation, but pronouncing eschatological judgment on oppressive landowners using a technique common in Amos, Malachi, and Micah.
• Hoarding wealth is not morally neutral — it is self-condemning — The corroded gold and moth-eaten garments are not just symbols of decay; they serve as legal evidence against those who refused to use their wealth for God's glory and the good of others.
• Withholding wages from laborers constitutes a form of murder — In the ancient world, depriving workers of their wages could literally cost them their lives. James draws on Old Testament law to frame predatory economic exploitation as a capital sin.
• God sees and hears the cries of the oppressed — The wages of defrauded workers "cry out" to the Lord of Hosts, echoing the blood of Abel in Genesis 4. God's justice is not passive or delayed out of ignorance — it is certain and coming.
• Matthew 25 reframes Christian mercy as care for the body of Christ — The sheep-and-goats judgment is not a general humanitarian mandate, but a specific call to care for persecuted brothers and sisters — and to recognize that mistreating them is mistreating Christ Himself.
• Trials are counted as joy through the doctrine of imputation — Suffering is not stripped of its pain, but it can be moved from the loss ledger to the profit column because God uses adversity as the instrument of sanctification and glorification.

Key Concepts The Prophetic Address: Who Is James Actually Talking To?

One of the most common misreadings of James 5:1–6 is assuming James is directly rebuking wealthy Christians in his own congregation. Tony Arsenal corrects this by grounding the passage in its literary and historical context. James employs a well-established prophetic technique — seen in Amos, Malachi, and Micah — of addressing an absent party in order to pronounce judgment on them, while simultaneously comforting those who overhear the oracle. His audience is the dispersed, impoverished Jewish Christians who fled Jerusalem under Saul's persecution. There were almost certainly no wealthy landowners in the room. The "Come now, you rich" is a judgment declaration directed outward, designed to assure the suffering poor that God has seen their oppressor and will act. Far from being a proof-text for radical poverty, the passage is a pastoral comfort wrapped in prophetic fire.

Corroded Gold as Legal Evidence Against the Soul

James's claim that gold and silver have "corroded" is deliberately shocking — and theologically precise. Gold, uniquely among metals in the ancient world, does not corrode. By saying it has already corroded, James is not making a metallurgical claim but a moral and eschatological one. The accumulated, hoarded wealth of the oppressor has lost its purpose. It sits idle while workers starve, and in doing so it becomes evidence — a legal witness — against its owner in the court of divine justice. Tony draws a direct line between this image and Jesus's teaching in the Sermon on the Mount about treasures stored on earth being subject to moth and rust. Both brothers — Jesus and James — appear to be drawing on the same shared wisdom, likely rooted in the same household and the same mother's instruction. Unused wealth does not just fail to help others; it actively indicts its holder.

Counting It All Joy: The Accounting Logic of Sanctification

Tony closes the sermon by returning to James 1:2 — the thesis statement of the entire letter — and unpacking the word "count" as an accounting term, directly related to the doctrine of imputation. Just as righteousness is reckoned to the believer in justification, so suffering can be reckoned as joy in sanctification. This is not a call to pretend pain isn't real, or to perform contentment. It is a theological reframing: what belongs in the loss column of the ledger can, by faith, be moved to the profit side — not because the trial was pleasant, but because God is sovereign, good, and working all things toward the believer's conformity to the image of Christ. The oppressor means their wickedness for evil. God means it for glory. The supreme example is the cross itself — the only truly innocent man, suffering the worst evil ever committed, for the redemption of His people.

Memorable Quotes

The corrosion of that gold serves as evidence for the condemnation of those who are harming you — and the corrosion of this wealth is an indication of the corrosion of their very souls.

He sees your pain. He sees your suffering. He sees your victories even when no one else is celebrating them. He sees you — and that should be a great source of comfort.

Imputation is an accounting term. And when we count it all joy, we're taking what should be a red line in the loss ledger — what should be an expense — and we're able to move it to the profit. Not because it didn't hurt, and not because we wanted it to happen, but because our God is good enough to not rob us of the chance to be sanctified.

Full Transcript

Tony Arsenal: Come now, you rich, weep and howl for the miseries that are coming upon you. Your riches have rotted and your garments are moth-eaten. Your gold and silver have corroded, and their corrosion will be evidence against you and will eat your flesh like fire.

You have laid up treasure in the last days. Behold, the wages of the laborers who mowed your fields, which you kept back by fraud, are crying out against you, and the cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of hosts. You have lived on the earth in luxury and in self-indulgence. You have fattened your hearts in the day of slaughter.

You have condemned and murdered the righteous person. He does not resist you." It's always a little, uh, strange to sort of jump into the middle of a series, and, um, you know, Wes is one of the most competent preachers that I know personally, so I trust that he has given you a good and satisfying overview.

Uh, but I don't feel like I would be doing my responsibility if I didn't at least touch on a few things, uh, related to the, the intro to James that I think is relevant for this particular passage in a way that maybe is not relevant for the rest of the book. So some of this I hope is review, I, I anticipate is review, but I think it's worth, uh, touching on.

James, as you know, is the, the half brother of Jesus. He was the leader of the Jerusalem church, and specifically he was sort of the figurehead of the Jewish church as a whole. Um, the Jewish church was the only church for the very early part of the church's growth. There were always, uh, Gentile believers.

Even in the Old Testament, there were Gentiles who trusted in the Lord of Israel and the God of Israel. They were often called God-fearers. They rarely converted all the way to Judaism, but they were sort of seen as an attachment to the Jewish people. They didn't participate in all of the blessings of the Jewish people, but they did participate in most.

They often had the same kind of protection. They were in a form of covenant with God. Um, they were able to worship and offer sacrifices. The temple itself had a whole portion of the temple dedicated called the Court of Gentiles, specifically for these Jewish worshipers. And as the church spread, primarily through persecution, which we'll touch base on here in a minute, as the church spread out from Jerusalem into Judea and Samaria, and ultimately to the ends of the earth, it took on a, an increasingly Gentile Greek flavor.

As more and more primarily initially Greek converts came into the church, and then of course, as it spread to other sort of non-Hellenistic lands, other, other types of people, other nations, other people groups joined the church, the scriptures which-- the New Testament we receive primarily from Paul, at least in terms of the epistles, um, also began to take on a more Gentile flavor.

Not because Paul was a Gentile, but because Paul was ministering primarily to Gentiles What we'll see here is that James is a very Jewish book. I'm sure that along the way there's been several kinds of things pointed out to you to show that, but I wanna show a couple things that not only establish James as the author, James the brother of, of Jesus, but also root the, not only the author, but the audience in a distinctly Jewish Christian, uh, context.

So you don't have to turn there, I'll read this, but in Acts, uh, 15, which is the, the great Jerusalem Council, uh, we read this. It says, "With the following letter..." So the, the council meets, they make a decision about what k- what parts of the Jewish law were going to be commended to and recommended, uh, and required for the Christian believers, the Gentile Christian believers, and when they're done, they send this letter to all of, all of the churches.

And it says, "With the following letter, the brothers, both apostles and the elders, to the brothers who are at, of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia, greetings." Now, I don't know about you, but I always sign my emails the same way, right? I've got, like, my work signature that I have to use, that the, the hospital makes me use with all the proper formatting and colors and fonts, but I always have the same signature.

Mine is very simple. I just say, "Thanks," right? I just sign it as, "Thanks," above my signature, and I'm sure you all have that sort of characteristic way you sign a s- sign an email, or maybe it's the way you say goodbye at the end of a phone call. My father-in-law always says, "So long," which is a phrase you don't hear very often, so it's very distinct to him.

We all have these little tells in our communication that sort of tip off who they're from. If you turn quickly back over to James 1, so just flip the page, uh, to the left here, he starts his letter by saying, "James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the 12 tribes in the dispersion, greetings."

It's the only two letters in the New Testament that we have where the author identifies himself, sends to a sort of generalized audience, and then signs it, "Greetings." Now, James, the brother of Jesus, was the leader of the Jerusalem Church. He was the leader of the Jewish ch- the Jewish Church in general, and he signed the letter coming from the Acts Council as sort of the presiding minister.

If, if we were, y- you might call them, like, the moderator of your business meeting, or we would call them the moderator of our presbytery or our session in the Presbyterian context I come from. He was the one who sort of, like, presided over there, and so the letter that went out to the churches was signed in his name and written, drafted by him.

So we see this characteristic way that the letter is addressed with this final word, "Greetings," which is not used frequently in the New Testament We also see when we look at the language carefully that the audience of this, uh, of this letter, it's debated and there are good arguments, but i- in my opinion, it's very clear that the audience of this letter is not Jewish Christians in general or, uh, Jews who have not yet converted.

There are some people who would say that 'cause they're called the 12 tribes. But instead it is the Jewish Christians who originally dwelled in Jerusalem and were sent out into the countryside after the persecution that was started primarily by Saul. If you look at Acts, Acts 1 which is, uh, the passage where Saul begins to persecute the church or where Saul kinda comes on the scene as the persecutor of the church, there's a couple distinct, um, distinct linguistic markers we should touch base on.

Starting in verse one it says, "And p- Saul approved of his execution. And there arose a day-- that day a great persecution against the church in Jerusalem. They were all scattered throughout the region of Judea and Samaria, except the apostles. Devout men buried Stephen and made a great lamentation over him.

But Saul was ravaging the church and entered the house after house. He dragged off men and women and committed them to prison." When we look at this and we compare it to that, uh, again, that first verse of James where he says to the ones who are scattered, we see that there's a pretty strong linguistic parallel that tells us that the people he has in mind for this letter, the people he's addressing, are the same people who were dispersed or scattered out of Jerusalem in the persecution.

When he says to the 12 tribes in the dispersion, that word dispersion is not really a translation. It's what we call a transliteration. So it's not like we've taken a word and sort of given it an English word. We've just changed the word, the letters over to English letters. In Greek, the word is diaspora, dispersion, and in, uh, Acts 1, the verb used to, to sort of describe this scattering of them is diaspero.

And it is a picture of scattering seed. This is what a farmer would do. So it's not even the normal word we would use when someone is fleeing persecution. It's this idea that God has scattered Christians out into the world, in this case by persecution. He scattered them out into the world to be planted.

A lot of this is where we get phrases from Tertullian about the blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church. Now, why does this matter? As I mentioned, we often think in Gentile categories when we're reading the New Testament, and for good reason. One, we're all, all Gentiles, I'm presuming. I, I don't, I don't think-- I think I mentioned this last time, and no one came up and corrected me.

I don't think anyone here is ethnically Jewish with ancestry that they're directly aware of, you know, where they trace their lineage directly back. Europe is a, a big amalgamation of just about everything, so most of us probably have a smattering of different ethnicities. But none of us are ethnically Jewish to the idea that we would, uh, identify as such in the same way.

And even if we were, we've been raised and grown up in a Gentile context. We live in the West. We have-- We think in different categories. And what's more is most of the New Testament is written primarily to Gentiles by someone who is ministering to Gentiles. So Paul uses a fair amount of, of Hebraisms or things that are related to the Old Testament.

Of course, he's explaining the Old Testament, and he makes ample reference to the Old Testament because that is the word of God, and it is profitable for our teaching, our correction, our reproof, and ultimately for our, our sanctification. But he uses metaphors and language in a way that is not common to the Israel context that Jesus and James and Peter and the other apostles were raised in.

We don't have time to go there, but there's even some metaphors that Paul uses that are actually used the opposite way in, uh, in the more Hebraic Jewish, uh, epistles we have. One example that comes to mind is, um, Paul looks at the concept of milk, and that's not necessarily a good thing, right? It's not a bad thing, but it's what immature believers use, right?

They can't handle the meat of the Bible. They have to be given the milk of the gospel before they can progress to the meat. In the Book of Hebrews, which I don't think was written by Paul, and in other places, Peter uses milk as a way to talk about nourishment, right? We think of the land flowing with milk and honey.

Milk was not seen as some sort of substandard food that was only for babies. It was seen as, like, the richest, best thing that you could eat. We all have a linguistic environment that we grow up in. We all have a shared vernacular. You know, if I say something like, "You can't get there from here," everyone knows what that means.

Obviously, you can get there from here, but you have to take this circuitous route. We know what that means. I think if we went around the room, we probably would find that there is this shared language. And then if we took individual families, we'd find that even within those families, there's further narrowing down of sort of like inside jokes and words that are used in ways that are not necessarily the same as others So when we read James, or when we read the letters of Peter or the letters of John, we should default to thinking more along the lines of comparing them to the words of Christ in the Gospel, first and foremost, and then to the Old Testament before we start to think about them necessarily comparing them to Ja-- or to Paul or to other kind of first century Hellenistic literature.

That's not, of course, to say that Paul and James contradict. I'm sure that we went through a long explanation with much detail when you got to James chapter two, which is, of course, the most famous example. Paul uses the word justification or justify in a legal sense to make or to declare someone to be righteous.

It's the verdict that the judge delivers, and it communicates the status. It actually performs what it says. When the judge says, "I find you not guilty," it changes your status from being potentially guilty to being cleared of all charges. Paul uses it slightly differently. He's not using it in the sense of to make someone righteous or to declare them righteous.

He's using it to say they've been shown to be righteous. They've been validated. They've been vindicated. And if we get that mixed up, that's the source of all sorts of confusion. So when we come to this passage, and we'll get there, I promise, when we come to this passage, we have to understand some of the metaphors and the language that's being used draws from an existing body of shared cultural language that is foreign to us and is in some ways foreign to the rest of the New Testament, apart from what we see in the Gospels

And it's important to remember, and this is why it's so key to land, that the audience of this letter is the persecuted, poor Jewish Christians who probably had a fairly comfortable life, relatively speaking, living in Jerusalem. These are city folks. These are people that live in Jerusalem or farm into the fields immediately around Jerusalem.

They were established. They owned land. They probably had family that they had to leave, and now they're scattered out into the country with nothing. They're sent out into the world with no jobs, no family connections, no social welfare. Because they've left the Jewish faith, at least from the perspective of the Jews, they can't even go to their Jewish brothers and sisters and rely on the hospitality that's required in the law of Moses This is so important when we think about how James opens the letter and delivers what I think is his thesis statement.

"Count it all joy, my brothers, when you face trials of every kind." Trials like not knowing where the next meal is gonna come from, not knowing where the next roof over your head is, not being sure you can feed your children. We all face real trials and tribulations in our life. Some of them are related to our faith, and some is just the fallen human condition in the fallen world we live in.

But we're talking here about a totally different category of, uh, trial and persecution than most of us hopefully will ever experience That brings us to our actual passage now. James opens up this section with a linguistic marker that signifies this is a change in topic. He says, "Come now," or another way to translate it might be, "Now listen.

Listen up." When my son is doing something that, uh, I need him to stop or I need to give him instructions, I hold him by his shoulders and I say, "Look at my eyes. I want your eyes right here. Look at my eyes." That's what Paul is doing. He's stopping and he's interrupting the flow of language. This shows us this is a new topic and a new audience.

James is not speaking to rich Christians in his audience. First, 'cause there likely weren't any rich Christians directly in his audience. Remember, these are the, the poor Christians scattered out into the Judean countryside, into Samaria He's using a technique that's really common in the prophets. It's common in Jesus, where he's addressing the people who are not really listening as a way to establish that they will be judged, to hold them accountable, but also to comfort those who are hearing the message.

This is a form of prophetic address. We see this in Amos, where he's chastising the Jewish leaders. Uh, in Malachi and Micah, this happens. Malachi is primarily, at least initially, is primarily, uh, a book that is railing against the rich leaders in Jerusalem who had oppressed their own brothers and sisters.

The chances that those Jewish cr- uh, Jewish leaders were reading his prophecy or hearing his prophecy is pretty slim. So he was addressing a different group to establish the judgment that he was proclaiming on another party. Jesus does this when he says like, "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees." There were probably scribes and Pharisees in the audience there, but he wasn't just talking to the people in front of them.

He was pronouncing a judgment oracle, a judgment prophecy on all people who fit that category, and James is doing the same thing here James is not opposing wealth generally. Sometimes James is used as kind of a New Testament example to justify the idea that we should all be poor and wear shabby clothing and walk around barefoot and dirty all the time.

Right? This is a key passage that's used, uh, in parts of the church that really emphasize sort of a poverty-based lifestyle. Think of like the wandering monks of the Middle Ages or the, the, um, sort of more radical exclusionists that exist even in our day. I remember when I was in college, I was really enamored with this figure named Shane Claiborne.

Some of you have probably heard of him, and I remember I was so impressed because he, he didn't buy new shoes. He just cut new shoes out of duct tape and put them back together. Now, there's some, you know, there's some rugged, uh, rugged get-it-done-ness that, uh, I think us, uh, New Englanders can appreciate, but God does not call us to wear duct tape shoes, at least not universally.

I'm not gonna comment on whether he calls Shane Claiborne to do that. I also don't think Shane Claiborne does that anymore. Um, some of us he may call to a lifestyle of poverty in association with a mission field or in association with a specific calling. He does not call us generally to be poor or to not gain wealth What he is opposing here is the refusal to use wealth appropriately for God's glory and the accumulation of wealth just for wealth's sake We'll see that as we unpack the language here a little bit.

He establishes that he's not just talking about the earthly hoarding of wealth, as though somehow the very act of accumulating wealth was itself the problem. What he's doing is he's pronouncing an eschatological judgment on those who hoard wealth and use it to oppress others. We see here he says, "Come now, you rich, and weep and howl for the miseries that are coming upon you."

Th- that word weep and howl, those are li-- those are words that are most commonly used in prophetic literature to describe the final cry of anguish. Think about the weeping and gnashing of teeth that Jesus talks about. This is the language he's using. He's talking about the final estate of those who refuse to submit their wealth to God He says, "Your riches have rotted and your garments are moth-eaten.

Your gold and silver have corroded, and their corrosion will be the evidence against you and will eat your flesh like fire. You have laid up treasures in the last days." Now, remember what we said. We, we should read this not in light of some general wisdom, although it is general wisdom that if we accumulate wealth, it tends to not actually go well for us if we're not utilizing it in God-honoring ways.

But we should read this in light of the most obvious connection, his big brother, Jesus, who taught his people, "Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, where thieves break in and steal, but lay up for yourselves treasure in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys, where thieves do not break in and steal.

For where your treasure is, there your heart will also be." To maybe land this linguistic, uh, this linguistic connection a little more, I don't know, vibrantly, I'm gonna speculate a little bit. So if you don't like it, then you can disregard it. This is not God's Word. This is a speculation. I can just imagine little Jesus, little nine-year-old Jesus, and probably little six or seven-year-old James and the rest of their siblings, and there's quite a few of them.

And we have Joseph, uh, who maybe at this time was still living, although probably not. We know he was living until Jesus was later, you know, 12, he was still around, but we don't know exactly when he left the picture. But he was a carpenter, and he was not, probably not overly wealthy. Uh, they had had to pick up and move, you know, cross-country anyways.

They-- We don't know exactly where they were from initially, but they went to Bethlehem, and then they returned to Nazareth. They probably didn't have a lot. There were a lot of mouths to feed and only one business. They didn't have a farm. They didn't own livestock that we know of. I can just imagine a time when little J- little James or one of his sisters was frustrated about the fact that they didn't have anything.

And I could picture Mary getting down and going, "Do not store up treasures in, in, uh, in heaven or on Earth. It's all gonna waste away." The same way we might tell our children kind of a, a moral kind of story. Sometimes we have this picture, last time I was here I, I spoke on Philippians 2, we have this idea that Jesus was somehow like Superman, that he, he was just pretending to be a normal human most of the time.

As it touches his humanity, as, as we think about Jesus as a human, he had a, his own human set of thinking faculties, his own human knowledge. He grew in wisdom and stature is what Luke teaches us. Well, where did he get some of this wisdom? There's a good reasonable argument to be made that some of the pr- more proverbial type sayings that we see in Christ, that they actually come from the wisdom of his mother and father.

And a really good reason to believe that is James relies on the same exact, uh, sort of proverbial wisdom to l- land his point. He doesn't create his own metaphor, he goes back to, at the very least we can say he goes back to the words of Christ. That's a very safe position to take. But this is the shared linguistic context that they both grew up in And he says, "You've done this in the last days."

Now, the, the phrase last days in the Bible, uh, in the New Testament generally refers to the time period from Christ's resurrection to his return. We, for a lot of reasons, think about it as kind of like that climactic end period in time. Depending on your, your persuasion, maybe this is when the Antichrist comes, or maybe this is before or after, or maybe during the time when the church is raptured.

But in either case, we think of that sort of last period in time before Christ finally comes back. But the New Testament writers are really talking about the entire duration, from Christ's resurrection to his return is what they're referring to. But it does have in view this idea that we are in the last times.

The, the final judgment is not necessarily strictly something that's out there in the future. We are living in the last days now, and so what we do and what we say and, and how we worship and if we worship is eschatology. It is the theology of the last times He also positions this as though this is a universal thing going on with those who hoard wealth.

This is a very shocking image. Um, we have very good ways to preserve things in our modern world, right? We have ways to m- to make, uh, stainless steel that won't rust, or at least won't rust quickly. But most things in the ancient world, even most precious metals, corroded. Um, I remember when I was growing up, there was this project in my hometown.

I lived in a, a little town called White Bear Lake in, in, um, Minnesota, although little is relative. It's pretty big compared to most of what we have out here. And I remember when I was maybe 12 or 13 years old, they had this big building project to build this brand-new, beautiful lakeside pavilion in the center of town, and it w- just gleamed in the sun.

It was so gorgeous, and it was made of copper, and everybody loved it, and two years later, it was bright green. I think it's still bright green. I think they figured out it wasn't worth repairing, so they, they just, they just make sure it doesn't keep getting worse, and at some point, I'm sure they either have or will tear it down.

But the one metal in the ancient world that didn't do this was gold. It's part of why gold is such a durable measurement of wealth is because it doesn't wear out. It doesn't corrode. It's very soft. It's very easy to damage it, which is why we don't build statues out of it, or we don't build, uh, buildings out of it usually, but it didn't corrode.

So when James says here, "Not only your silver, which tarnishes and corrodes, but your silver and gold have corroded." Not are corroding, but have corroded. The rich hearer of this is probably, you know, sitting around like Scrooge McDuck with a pile of gold coins thinking, "Ah, it looks pretty good to me." And what James is saying is, "No, no, no.

No, it's corroded. It's eating away at your heart. It's lost its value because you refuse to use it, and so it sits in a pile doing nothing for no one, except serving to further your own condemnation." This is such a crazy, shocking situation that the insanity of not using your wealth, period, the insanity of sitting on your wealth in the ancient world is going to serve as a form of evidence justifying the condemnation of these wicked fools

And further, the corrosion of this wealth is an indication of the corrosion of their very souls. There's something about money. I was-- When I was here a couple times before, I preached one of the wealth passages out of Ecclesiastes, and there's something about money that has a unique way of really, really wrecking us.

Either we don't have it and we want it, or we have it and we don't wanna lose it, or we have it and we don't spend it wisely. It seems like there's an infinite number of ways to screw it up. And we landed last time that the gospel is good news because with the nearly infinite ways of screwing it up, we're going to screw it up.

But the one way that he talks about screwing it up here is hoarding it and sitting on it and not using it

Moving on into verses four and five, James moves us now to a more sort of temporal register. He starts out by talking about what wealth is and what it's doing and how it will ultimately affect the entire life and eternity of those in his targeted audience, those he's proclaiming this prophetic, uh, judgment against.

But in verse four, he moves back to the behaviors that are being, uh, being engaged in to show the state of these people's souls. He says, "Behold, the wages of the laborers you, who mowed your fields, which you kept back by fraud, are crying out against you, and the cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of Hosts.

You have lived on the earth in luxury and in self-indulgence. You have fattened your hearts in a day of slaughter."

James here points at the, at the behaviors that show this hoarding behavior, and he does it for a number of reasons. One, he needs to call out sin. That's part of the role of a Christian, and especially a leader or a minister in the church, is, um, to not only call out sin in the body of, of Christ, but in a, I think a very particular way, and there's all sorts of, uh, all sorts of theological controversies flying on around about Christian nationalism and other associated things.

Some of it is just the spirit of the age. Um, post-COVID, there's a, a real strong sense that our government has failed us and we need to replace it with something else. But there is a, a true way, and I, I think some of those things are a little misguided, but there's a true way that the church, particularly her leaders, should be speaking to the culture around us, and yes, even to the government, to proclaim the truth of God into a wicked and godless culture.

This might take the form o- of a m- minister who goes to a town hall meeting to speak out against a gambling association that's going to be forming, or a, an elder in the church or a deacon in the church who goes to speak to, uh, to the city hall or to the state legislature about the wickedness of abortion and about what we see it does to women's lives when they are fooled into thinking that this is the right thing for them.

Again, the church is not the state, and the state is not the church, and we should be very careful not to cross those lines for all sorts of reasons. But we as a culture, as a Christian culture, in the United States particularly, have lost sight of our responsibility to speak truth in all circumstances to those in power So James is doing that, of course.

But even more so, this is a way that he establishes for his direct audience, for the Jewish poor Christians who have been scattered in this diaspora, in this dispersion. He looks at them in a sense and says, "I see you. I see what's happening to you." And as God's representative, as his chosen voice for this message, as his inspired author, God sees you too

This goes back again, the first two chapters of James serve as kind of a thesis statement and table of contents for the whole book. We get an idea of what may have been happening, the actual, uh, acts that were being engaged in, in, in chapter two verse six, he says, "You have insulted the poor. Is it not the rich who are exploiting you?

Are they not the ones who are dragging you into court? Are they not the ones who are slandering the noble name of him to whom you belong?" James has in mind here a form of predatory land purchasing, where the rich were sort of sweeping up property. They were sweeping it up, and then they were charging probably exorbitant prices to those who would lease the land to try to eke out a living.

Does that sound at all like any of our current context, right? When's the last time any of us have tried to buy a house and found anything reasonable? Well, a large part of that is that there are big companies that are scooping up all the land and buying all the, the developments. Now, I'm not commenting on those particular situations.

I don't know those people. I don't know their hearts, and some of those things actually are doing good things for the community. But we're familiar with this idea of someone who will purchase a resource, who will then jack the price up in order to turn a profit on it. I'm not opposed to turning a profit.

Y- y- yeah, it takes money to run a business, and you have to, you have to recuperate those funds if your business is going to survive. But there's a, there's a way that that can be done that is a predatory act These rich landowners were getting fat on those that they were victimizing In our, in our modern world, we tend to think of someone who is overweight as unhealthy, for good reason, right?

Too much weight, and I say that with someone with a little too much padding around the middle, so no, no judgment on this, but too much weight is not healthy, right? We hear that from our doctors, that there's a healthy weight range and there's an unhealthy weight range. In the ancient world, obesity was not the concern, right?

Malnutrition was the concern. And so when you see, uh, a king in the Old Testament who's, who's noted to be fat, that's not always negative. Sometimes it is, but he's noted to be fat or he's noted to be large. Even the word for glory, I'm sure you've heard this before, the word for glory in the Old Testament has to do with being heavy.

So this idea of weightiness or, um, being able to eat enough to actually gain weight instead of being thin was seen as a good thing, but not when you use it as a way to victimize other people. A person who gathers wealth honestly and enjoys it, that's, that's Proverbs right there. That's the Book of Ecclesiastes in its sort of positive sense, is that we, when we accumulate wealth and we use it for God's glory, it's perfectly okay for us to also use it for our enjoyment.

God wants us to enjoy the fruit of our labor. But when we accumulate wealth and use it as a way to gain power over someone and to abuse them, that is what James is railing against here And ultimately, with the audience that James is writing to, this is a form of murder. This is why he says, "You have fattened your hearts in the day of slaughter."

Because a person who can't feed their family in the Old Testament or in the New Testament era was likely to see them die. There are not a ton of people in modern America that are starving to death on the streets. It's not to say it doesn't happen. It's not to say that there's not things like food insecurity or malnutrition, but there are, there are plenty of places people can go to get their basic food needs met.

It was not like that-- It's not like that in most of the world now, and it certainly was not like that in the ancient world. And so a, a landowner who again refuses, we're talking about the Jewish landowners, refuses to obey the Jewish law to leave some leftovers for the poor, and instead gleans all the way to the corner so that they can turn a little bit of extra pro-profit, is not only sinning against the Old Testament law, but is committing murder in the strictest sense by refusing to preserve the life of these poor, uh, Christians who are destitute

And again, James is encouraging his readers here that the Lord has not ignored their plight. We can think back to the Book of Habakkuk, where Habakkuk basically lodges a lawsuit against God, saying, "You are not paying attention. You're not doing your thing. You're not being faithful to your covenant." And God says, "Let me show you how faithful to my covenant I am.

The Chaldeans are on the way." And Habakkuk is like, "Whoa, wait a second here. That's not what I had in mind." God sees the oppression of the poor. He knows when His people are targeted. He knows when children are abused or when widows are ignored. He knows when the government does something to shut down a church, or when the medical institution refuses to acknowledge your personal rights.

He sees those things, and He's not ignorant, and He's not static. He's not sleeping on those things. The purpose here is to comfort the oppressed by showing that God is not ignorant of what has happened to them. Just two quick Old Testament examples that use similar language. In Genesis 4, we read of Cain and his murder of Abel, and in verse eight it says, "Cain spoke to Abel his brother, and when they were in the field, Cain rose up against his brother Abel and killed him.

Then the Lord said to Cain, 'Where is Abel your brother?' He said, 'I don't know. Am I my brother's keeper?' And the Lord said, 'What have you done? The voice of your brother's blood is crying out to me from the ground.'" Numbers, uh, 35 verses 30 says, "If anyone kills a person, the murderer shall be put to death on the evidence of witnesses, but no person shall be put to death on the testimony of one witness.

Moreover, you shall accept no ransom for the life of a murderer who is guilty of death, but he shall be put to death. And you shall accept no ransom from him who has fled to the city of refuge, that he may return to dwell in the land before the death of the high priest. You shall not pollute the land in which you live, for blood pollutes the land, and no atonement can be made for the land except for the blood that is shed in it, except by the blood of the one who shed it."

There's a rich history in the Old Testament of language of inanimate things, land, blood, wealth, other kinds of things that give testimony to God in some way, and specifically of these inanimate, uh, impersonal things testifying to the sin of the people that dwell around them. Even Christ says, "If these people do not worship me, the rocks will cry out."

Now, the rocks are not literally crying out, although it certainly would be within God's power to make the rocks sing. But Christ is not saying in that passage that the rocks are going to form mouths and begin singing Hosanna or whatever song they might have been doing. What he's saying is that the very rocks themselves give testimony to the glory and goodness of God.

So even if the people around here fail to do so, the entire rest of creation is doing so, and that is what James is saying here. My dear brothers and sisters scattered in the dispersion who have nothing, and in society's eyes are nothing, some of you are facing persecution. Some of you will be killed for your faith, but God sees because the wealth that is being accumulated on the breaking of your own backs is crying out.

The corrosion of that gold serves as evidence for the condemnation of those who are harming you

We often want justice in the moment. I think we always want justice in the moment, don't we? I think it's a really hard discipline to say, "That person wronged me, but I'm okay letting God sort it out." That is a hard pill to swallow, but it is often the pill that we have to take. It's the medicine that God uses to further our justification, our j- our, uh, excuse me, our sanctification Paul says, you know, "Do not take vengeance.

Let the Lord do that." We can trust, and this is where the comfort of this passage comes for us, brothers and sisters, we can trust that when we are wronged, that when someone has done something to us that is a violation of God's law, that that sin will be punished. Now, when we're dealing with other Christians, that sin has already been punished, and so it is not, it is not appropriate for us to hold onto that and to take vengeance.

That's what the parable of the unmerciful servant is all about If I as a Christian refuse to forgive my brother and sister when they've wronged me, it's me saying that I'm a better judge of their sin and I'm a better executioner than the Lord is when he punished that sin on the cross. But that sin was not atoned for when we're talking about unbelievers.

When we're talking about those who will ultimately end their earthly life and find themselves waking up in flames, that sin has not been atoned for, and so God will have his justice, and we will have our justice. We won't turn there, but in Revelation, we're familiar with the passage, I think it's chapter six, where the martyred saints are under the throne and they say, "How long, O Lord?"

Well, God doesn't answer their question, but he gives them new clothes. When Job cries out and he's, he's saying, "I don't understand why this is happening. Why are you targeting me, God? Why, why are you a hunter with your arrows in my liver?" God doesn't tell him why, but he says, essentially, "I'm God and you're just going to have to trust me that this is right."

We see a very similar, uh, kind of situation here when we think about when, uh, when Abraham, uh, when God tells Abraham what he's about to do to Sodom and Gomorrah, and then Abraham negotiates, apparently negotiates with God, uh, trying to secure the salvation of the city for the sake of the righteous. And we read starting in verse 20 of chapter 18, he says, "The Lord said to, to Abraham," he says, " 'Because the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is great and their sin is very grave, I will go down to see whether they have done altogether according to the outcry that has come to me.

If not, I will know.' " God is always seeing and investigating the sin of people We're, we're teaching my son, August, the children's catechism, which is a, a great resource. Um, and one of the questions is, "Can you see God?" And the answer is, "No, but he always sees me." Now that may feel at first to some people like a little bit of a heavy-handed answer, but knowing that God sees us is not just there to correct our sin.

It should do that, right? Even the secret sins we commit in the dark when, when we're not being watched by anyone else, even, even those God sees. But do you know what else He sees? He sees your pain. He sees your suffering. He sees your victories even when no one else is celebrating them. He sees your progress.

He sees you, and that should be a great source of comfort

Now this passage, especially verse six, can be a little bit hard to apply because although we're the targeted audience, we're not the target of the judgment oracle. So I think what we have to do, we have to, we have to think about this in light of the way that God talks about the judgment of unbelievers in other places in the scripture, and how that helps us to understand kind of what our, what our status is.

If you'll take your Bibles and open to Matthew chapter 25, I think the, um, the account here of the goat and sheep judgment, uh, is instructive for us

Starting in verse 31, it says, "When the Son of Man comes in his glory and the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left.

Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.'

Then the righteous will answer him saying, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you or thirsty and give you a drink? When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?' And the King answered them, 'Truly I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.'

Then he will say to those on the left, 'Depart from me for you for, uh, depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, I was naked and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not visit me.'

Then they also, uh, they also will say, answer saying, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and not minister to you?' Then he will answer them saying, 'Truly I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.' And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Now, this passage is sometimes understood as a general command to feed the poor or the sick, or to visit those in prisons, or any of the f- the sort of mercy ministry things that, that, um, are mentioned here. And those are all things that Christians should do, right? We should be engaged in, um, in mercy ministry to the poor, to those who are destitute.

We should be mindful and thoughtful of those who have needs around us. What this passage is teaching, though, is not a general command to feed all people, but a specific command to care for your brothers and sisters in Christ when they have a need He doesn't say to the righteous, "You did these to everyone."

He says, "Whatever you did to the least of these, my brothers, you did it to me." All of the things that are listed here, the, the six mercy ministries that are listed by Christ here, are things that persecuted Christians were suffering at the time, persecuted Jew- Jewish Christians, and that would be common experiences for, for Jewish Christians and for all persecuted Christians.

Right? They're hungry. They don't have food. Our diaspora Jewish Christians don't have land to farm, and even if they're able to scrape together enough funding to lease out a farm, they're being, uh, they're being totally overwhelmed by the cost of that. The sort of homeowners association dues of these pyramid schemes that were going on in the first century, they were so exorbitant that it wasn't even subs- subsistence farming.

Christians were being thrown in, uh, in prison. They didn't have enough money to replace their clothes when it wore out. They couldn't have access to clean water. We take clean water as such a, such a basic thing, and it's so easy. You just turn on the tap, or you just go to the store and you buy a bottle of $7 water.

It wasn't like this in the first century. If you didn't have a well, you didn't have water, unless you had someone who cared enough to share this precious resource with you. And so what Christ is saying to, to his people, both in the immediate audience on the Sermon on the Mount, uh, and in this, the Olivet Discourse here, what he's saying to his people is when someone in the body of Christ does not have what they need, the body of Christ should step up and make sure that that is the case, that they take care of that person.

And likewise, he's saying to those who are not a part of the body of Christ, "Depart from me, I never knew you." Now, the intro to this, why it sometimes is called a parable, is the sheep and the goats. We sometimes go way too far into the arena of comparing the behavior of sheeps with the behavior of the people here, right?

Sheep are nice, they're affable, they listen to you. In reality, from what I understand, sheep are pretty dumb and can be very stubborn, right? And then we, we read and we go, "Goats are stubborn, they're rebellious, they're not really good for anything." Well, there's a reason people have goats on farms. They, they can be stubborn, right?

They can be destructive, but they also serve a purpose. So the point here is not that sheep are good and goats are bad. The point is that sheep are not goats and goats are not sheep. And, uh, another point that comes with this is sheep don't become goats by behaving like goats, and goats don't become sheep by acting like sheep.

I have some friends that will tell you they have very affectionate, friendly, lovable goats, right? I'd, I would... If I could get my kids one of those little pygmy goats that everybody loves, I would do that, 'cause they can be very kind, very sweet, and they're very smart. But they're not sheep. And if you read this passage carefully, this fact that those who are taken to the right are, are in fact taken to the right is not because they fed the poor.

It's not because they ministered to Christ by feeding the least of these. They did those things because they were part of the kingdom

The King says to those on His right, "Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world." The sheep on the right were always going to be the sheep on the right. They were predestined according to the counsel of God's will before all time to live and walk in good works.

That's just Ephesians 2 there. That's also just James 2 there. You have faith, I will show you my faith by my works. This is evidence language, loved ones Likewise, the ones who are told to depart into eternal darkness were also predestined not to inherit this kingdom. No kingdom was prepared for them before the foundation of the world.

They have no inheritance. They have nothing. They will end up in the state that they are trying to impose on these poor Jewish Christians. They will end up in the state that they may be trying to impose on some of us in this room

And for the final verse here in, in chapter five, in verse six here, there's a lot of discussion and debate in the commentaries about who the identity of this righteous one is. It says, "You've condemned and murdered the righteous person, he does not resist you." Now, some commentators will take the fact that this is the singular righteous person, that he has been murdered and h- was condemned, and will take this as a reference to Christ.

And that would, would make good sense, right? The Jewish, the wealthy Jewish landowners, the wealthy Jews in Jerusalem who per- who persecuted and cast out, um, the Christians, they were in the same group of people who condemned and murdered Jesus And at least at the time of writing this, and in many ways in our own day, God is not necessarily resisting them.

He's allowing them to store up judgment for the coming day of wrath There are others who will take this as sort of the hypothetical singular, right? The righteous one or the righteous person is this, uh, representative hypothetical person that represents all of the persecuted Christians. And so it's more like saying, um, to the, the wealthy landowners who are persecuting Christians, "You have condemned and murdered the Christians, the righteous people, and we do not resist you."

Now, at the end of the day, it's, it's always good to have good, sober, well-intentioned, text-based debates about what the Bible means. We can and we should try to convince others, uh, when we think they're wrong about what the scripture means. So that's not what I'm saying here. But in many ways, which of those two perspectives it actually is doesn't change the interpretation of this passage.

Like we read in Matthew 25, like we read in Acts 9 when Christ comes and confronts Saul, what you do to God's people, you are doing to Christ himself. What you do to the body, you have done to the head. It's a little bit weird to say that when I stub my toe, I injure my head, but that's true, right? I don't injure my toe as though it's some separate piece.

It's not like I'm a Lego man where I can just swap out a hand that gets cracked and put it back on. When I injure my toe, I injure myself. My whole body is injured even though it's specific to a part of my body. When you-- when someone persecutes you, when they, uh, try to extort your wealth, your funds, when they try to harm your body, when they try to take away your children, all things that are happening not just out there in the world, but in our country, even in our own region.

When they try to tell you that because you don't wanna play a basketball game, that you can't play sports at all. When a city taxes a portion of a church's property because they don't think it's being used for religious purposes, they are doing that to Jesus Christ himself, and God will not be mocked

This should call us both to faithfulness and to encouragement How people treat Christ or how people treat Christ's people, including how we trust, tr- uh, treat Christ's people, shows us what we think about Christ. The people who take care of the church do so because they love God, and they do it out of a regenerated heart that already loves God.

And the people who hate the church do it because they hate Christ, and they do it out of their wickedness and out of their wicked heart

This brings us back again to the thesis statement of James. "Count it all joy, my brothers, when you meet trials of various kinds, for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness. And let steadfastness have its full effect, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing." And then he says later in that, uh, first chapter in verse nine, "Let the lowly brother boast in his exaltation, and the rich in his humiliation, because like the flower of the grass, he will pass away.

For the sun rises with its scorching heat and withers the grass; its flower fails, and its beauty perishes. So also will the rich man fade away in the midst of his pursuits. Blessed is the man who remains steadfast under trial, for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life, which God has promised to those who love him."

Now, you're all coming up to the end of James here. Um, we probably have two, two more sermons, I would guess, and the rest of this chapter is reinforcing this. It's unpacking for the immediate audience and therefore for us, it's unpacking that although the rich have their punishment coming to them, that likewise our consolation, our comfort from Christ is also coming to us.

He closes the whole letter out, he returns to his thesis statement to say, "I'm not going to pretend that the trials you're going through are joyful, but you can count it all joy." You can reckon it, you can impute it as joy, my brothers and sisters. You can put it in the joy column instead of the t- the pain column, right?

We had discussion about the beautiful word imputation in the announcements and scripture reading in the beginning here Imputation is a, is an accounting term. And when we count it all joy, we're taking what should be a red line in the, in the loss ledger, right? We're taking what should be an expense, and we're able to move it to the profit.

We're able to move it to the positive side, not because it didn't hurt and not because we wanted it to happen, but because our God is good enough to not rob us of the chance to be sanctified When we are oppressed and opposed, those who are oppressing and oppose us mean it for evil, just like Joseph's brothers, uh, and Pharaoh, and all sorts of wicked men in, in the Old Testament and in our own world.

Pilate, Herod, you mean, you name it in the Bible, this applies. They meant their wicked acts for wicked things, but God, rich in mercy, works all things for the good of those who love Him and are called according to His purpose. And what is that purpose? That we might be transformed into the image of Christ so that Christ may be glorified and He may be the firstborn among many brothers.

When we face trials and suffering of every kind, it leads us to our sanctification and to our ultimate glorification. We do not earn those things. We don't sanctify ourselves any more than we justify ourselves, or that any more than we will glorify ourselves or will raise ourselves from the dead. That is all God's work from start to finish.

But God does use these things that He brings us through as a way to bring about that work It's like he bends us over the hammer, over the anvil of trials, and he hammers us until we become a sharp sword in the hand of, in his hand. Or he polishes us with a rough cloth until we become a smooth, beautiful gem, right?

Think of any number of refining things that need to be done. It always involves, if the thing was, uh, was a person, it always involves something that would hurt a little bit. It always involves a little bit of damage to wear away the impurities. Our sanctification and our glorification is no different than that.

He uses adversity. He uses the wicked actions and intentions of, of evil men and women. He uses those things to glorify us. So although we should never, uh, we should never seek those things, right? You don't have to go and make yourself the soft target to the wicked people. It's okay to keep your head down.

There's nothing wrong with that. The Jewish Christians were probably doing their best to keep their heads down most of the time, and that's fine. There's not any words in scripture about being a coward if you don't, if you don't put a target on your back. But your target is gonna get there eventually, and that's not a bad thing.

We can welcome that. We can count it as joy because of who God is and what he's done. The supreme act of suffering, the supreme act of, of evil happened to the only innocent person there ever was, and it happened to him for us. this episode is available below.