Reformed Brotherhood | Reformed Theology and Brotherly Love

In their 500th episode, Tony Arsenal and Jesse Schwamb celebrate a decade of The Reformed Brotherhood by diving into one of Scripture's most overlooked parables — the Parable of the Growing Seed in Mark 4:26–29. Exclusive to Mark's Gospel, this four-verse passage packs a theological punch that is, as Tony and Jesse argue, unmistakably Reformed in its emphasis. The man scatters seed, goes about his life, and the earth produces — by itself — without his understanding or intervention. From this, the hosts draw out rich implications for evangelism, sanctification, ecclesiology, and eschatology. They argue that the kingdom of God advances by divine power alone, hidden from human sight, moving toward a certain consummation. The episode pairs deep theological reflection with the hosts' characteristic warmth, humor, and 10 years' worth of shared history.

Key Takeaways

• Monergism is embedded in the parable itself. The growth of the seed is entirely God's doing. The man scatters and rests; the earth produces by itself — a picture of divine sovereignty that requires no human management or comprehension.
• The evangelist's only obligation is to scatter. This parable relieves believers of the anxious burden of producing spiritual fruit. Faithfulness in proclamation is the call; growth belongs to God.
• Sanctification is gradual, hidden, and God's work. The progression — blade, ear, full grain — mirrors the believer's sanctification, which proceeds by degrees imperceptible to the individual yet certain in God's design.
• The Kingdom of God is not dependent on any individual. Whether it's a ministry leader, a financial contributor, or a worship musician, no single human agent is load-bearing for the advance of God's kingdom.
• Primary and secondary causation work together without contradiction. God uses means — the farmer still sows, the earth still functions — but the means are instrumental, not efficient causes. God's providence encompasses and exceeds them.
• The harvest belongs to God, not the evangelist. Just as the man did not direct the growth, he is not the agent ultimately putting in the sickle. The consummation of the kingdom occurs in God's time and by God's initiative.
• This parable resists reduction. It cannot be flattened into a simple evangelism lesson or a single eschatological statement. It holds together personal sanctification, corporate ecclesiology, and cosmic eschatology within four verses.

Key Concepts The Earth Produces By Itself: Monergism in the Parable

The theological center of this parable is the Greek word automate — the earth produces "by itself," without external compulsion or human assistance. Tony and Jesse argue this is not incidental language but the thesis of the entire passage. The farmer is genuinely active — he scatters the seed — but his agency recedes almost immediately from view. He doesn't monitor the soil, apply nutrients, or trace the growth. He simply lives his life. This picture coheres precisely with the Reformed doctrine of monergism: that in regeneration and kingdom growth alike, the decisive cause lies entirely outside human capacity. As Jesse puts it, the mechanism of growth "belongs to God alone." The farmer's ignorance is not a failure — it is the point. We are not meant to understand the how; we are meant to trust the Who.

Scatter, Then Rest: A Theology of Evangelism Without Anxiety

One of the episode's most practically rich applications concerns the posture believers are called to adopt in evangelism. Tony observes that this parable is rarely preached as an encouragement to evangelists, yet that is precisely what it is. The sower's only active verb is scattering. After that, he sleeps and rises — the rhythms of ordinary life — while God does the work that no human strategy, method, or persistence can accomplish. This directly addresses what Tony calls the "anxiety around trying to ensure some sort of production." The Reformed vision of evangelism is not passive indifference but liberated faithfulness: scatter the seed of the gospel without bearing the impossible weight of manufactured outcomes. As Paul writes in 1 Corinthians 3:6–7, "Neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God who gives the growth."

Blade, Then Ear, Then Grain: The Patience of Providence

The threefold progression Jesus describes — blade, then ear, then full grain — is not decorative agricultural detail. It is a theological statement about the character of God's work in the world and in the soul. Growth is gradual, ordered, and unhurried. Jesse draws the direct application to sanctification: the believer cannot fully trace the work of grace in his own heart, yet it is real and it is God's doing. This ought to produce, as Jesse summarizes, "patient confidence rather than human striving or anxiety." The church, too, matures through stages. Neither impatience with slowness nor despair at imperceptibility is warranted — both misread the nature of divine providence. God is not behind schedule. He is, as always, working through means, in His time, toward a consummation He has already appointed.

Memorable Quotes

The earth produces by itself — we might even say the kingdom of God produces by itself. It's not dependent on anything except God's sovereign will and his sovereignty to execute all that he desires. - Tony Arsenal

The mechanism of growth is strangely hidden from the human agent, and it belongs to God alone. - Jesse Schwamb

The kingdom of God advances by God's own hidden power toward a certain appointed consummation — and this ought to produce patient confidence rather than human striving or anxiety. - Jesse Schwamb

Full Transcript

Jesse Schwamb: Welcome to the 10th Pentacost episode of the [00:01:00] Reformed Brotherhood. It's number 500. I'm Jesse

Tony Arsenal: and I'm Tony, and this is the podcast that's been going for 10 years. Hey, brother.

Jesse Schwamb: Hey, brother. A happy 500th episode to you.

Tony Arsenal: I know, man. It's kinda crazy. It's kinda crazy, and we're not gonna do anything special 'cause we don't do that, but it is crazy that this is the 500th episode.

That's a lot of podcasting.

Jesse Schwamb: It's absolutely wild.

Podcast Memories And Mishaps

Jesse Schwamb: And as with any milestone, as I was thinking about this one occurring, it did draw my mind to all the crazy things that have happened on this podcast, some known, some unknown. Of course, there is the very infamous time that I spilled a whole bottle of kombucha on the desk while we were recording, but everybody knows about that.

But I was, I was also thinking about the, the lesser-known ones, like the time you and I sat in the downstairs church, like so close to each other on the same side of the table- Yeah ... to record a episode, or the time [00:02:00] that a tow truck showed up while we were recording and I had to go run out and direct the tow truck 'cause I'd called it for the car.

Tony Arsenal: Yeah.

Jesse Schwamb: And you paused the episode so that we could go do that, or the time that we had our favorite Lutherans on the podcast in what I think was, like, the hottest environment, and I just remember the sweat trickling down Chad Bird's beard. Like, like, like air being- Like the oil gloss ... mixed with oil. Yeah.

It was so hot. So those are the ones that come to my mind. I don't know if there are any ones that come to you. We- we've had some great episodes, and by the way, they all live out for free in the world on reformedbrotherhood.com. So don't take our word for it. You can go all the way back to the beginning if you really want to, and you can hear this incredible journey that God has had us on these some 10 years.

So I'm curious, like, do any episodes, topics, conversations, weird things come to your mind after all this time?

Tony Arsenal: Uh, the one I remember is when we recorded with Dad and we were waiting for the snow, the [00:03:00]snowplow- ... and we had to, like, wrap the episode up real quick because the snowplow was there and we had to go move cars.

That's right. So there's been a fair amount of episodes where it's like something has interrupted us and we need to just get it over with real quick. That's right. Um, hopefully the listener doesn't hear that too much.

Patreon Support Check In

Tony Arsenal: The other thing I was thinking about, you know, just as we're kinda thinking about the back catalog, we're not great at this.

Uh, we tend to do our, what, what's they call the call to action. The experts call it the call to action. We do it at the very end of our podcast episodes, which is the worst place to do it. Uh, but we're gonna try to land it in the beginning here. So we, we've been supported by a number of, of people, uh, for basically the entire podcast.

I don't remember exactly how early on it was that we started doing Patreon, but it's, it's been a long time. And what I noticed the other day, I went in to, to check on a couple things and make sure everything was working the way it's supposed to. There was some, like, account merge I had to do, and I've noticed that several people who've been supporting us, um, pretty much since the beginning- have their accounts listed in a declined status.

[00:04:00] And what that means is that their, probably their credit card that they use, uh, has expired, and so now they're not, no longer supporting the show even though they think they are. So if you are a person who believes you're supporting the show, particularly if you've been supporting the show for a long time, and you wanna continue to support the show, uh, we would really appreciate if you took a minute to go into your Patreon account, double-check that the, you know, that you've been, um, contributing for the last couple months.

Uh, double-check that the credit card you have on file is not, uh, expired or suspended or anything like that. Um, again, if you've made a decision that it's time to stop, uh, stop the show, or if this is the point where you realize, "I don't care enough to re-support to the show," um, that's fine. We love you.

We've appreciated your support. We hope you keep listening. Uh, but if you do wanna continue to contribute, please do check that. And if you've never taken a chance to think through whether or not you want to support the show, uh, Jesse and I are so thankful for all the support we have.

Jesse Schwamb: Yes.

Tony Arsenal: Uh, but things are getting more expensive, and, um, you know, that's, that's [00:05:00] just a reality for all of us, and that includes things like podcasting hosting fees.

Um, the cost of our, our editing software that we use has gone up. That's a subscription. Uh, the cost of hosting space has gone up. Um, all of that, uh, all of that has gone up, and so even though we've had steady supporters, it's kinda like we have lost supporters, um, financially because the money doesn't go quite as far.

So if you've ever thought, "Maybe I should, uh, maybe I should contribute to the podcast," please do think about it. Even if just, uh, half of our audience went in and contributed $1 a month, um, that would be a substantial amount. That would really help us to keep the podcast going. And there's actually a number of projects and things Jesse have I, and I have wanted to do, um, that we would love to be able to, you know, to take a step on.

Uh, we just don't have funding to do it, uh- Right ... because the funding we have is enough to keep the podcast going but not enough to stretch to something else. So I don't wanna, like, preload that too much, 'cause who knows if it's gonna happen, but there's some things that we wanna do [00:06:00] that would involve a little bit of upfront capital that we would need- Right

to get some contrib- contributions on. So please do consider that. We appreciate you so much if you've been a supporter. We appreciate you so much if you've even considered it. Uh, and we appreciate you so much just for listening, uh, especially- Yes ... if you've been with us, you know, this is episode 500.

That's a lot of podcasting- Yeah, it is ... directly in your ear hole. So thank you so much for that.

Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, we're so grateful.

Why We Keep Doing This

Jesse Schwamb: It's fun just to think how many episodes we recorded, but also how many interesting conversations and topics, all the inside jokes. It really is a community. That's in part why we started this, is to sit down together and to bring other brothers and sisters into the fray, as it were, or maybe to bring us into your fray a little bit and to encourage and edify the church, the brothers and sisters, the saints around the world.

And it is an around the world kinda podcast, which is remarkable too. So- Yes ... we're just gonna keep being here. As long as the Lord tarries and He allows us to do this, we'll just keep doing it. And again, we've recorded in closets, in cars on the way to things. We've done it at [00:07:00] the beach, and we've done it in cold environs, and we've done it in hot environs.

And you're right, you reminded me of that time where we were desperately waiting as we were getting snowed in for the plow to come. And then it was all hands on deck, and we just dropped the recording equipment and said, "We gotta get out of here." And more often than not, the p- joy of this podcast is it just kinda finds its way into our normal rhythm of life.

But it- Yeah ... comes out of our life, and out of a life that's been transformed by Christ. And so that's really what we come back to.

Mark Only Parable Preview

Jesse Schwamb: In fact, that's the whole thing that we're in right now. We're going through all these parables. And this episode, we can't stop, won't stop. We're gonna continue to hit you with the content that we love, which is talking about Jesus.

And so we're in one of the few... Well, it's a Markan parable that only appears in Mark. That's why I called it Markan, I guess. So extra bonus points to you, that's both extra and bonus, if you know which one it is before I say it. But there's a lot for us to talk about- ... because we're getting into this really, really short little story, but it's really chock-full, of course, as Jesus likes to do with all [00:08:00] kinds of spiritual truth.

It's about a farmer chucking a seed on the ground, and then he goes about his business. He eats, he sleeps, he binge-watches the Jane equivalent of Netflix. He sleeps again, he wakes up. And while he does this, the seed is doing entirely its own thing without his help or understanding. He didn't make it grow.

He can't explain how it grows. He just shows up at the end with a sickle to collect what God has already finished. Man, if there isn't a Reformed theological parable, I don't know what one is. Yeah. So we're gonna get to all of that on this 500th episode. I mean, it's something to be saying that even the US is only 250 years old, and-

we've already recorded twice as many podcasts as there are years of experience in the US. But besides all of that, it wouldn't be- It's like- ... Reformed Brotherhood-

Tony Arsenal: I don't know if you've seen this. That reminds me of those things online where it's like, like, "Elon Musk is a billi- is a trillionaire. That means he could give every person on earth $1 billion- Oh, yeah

and still would be a multi-billionaire." And you're like, "That's, that's not mathematically true." 'Cause when [00:09:00]you said that, I was like, "You mean the podcast is older than the country?"

Jesse Schwamb: Oh, math. I have a feeling we're gonna come back to that. Oh, math.

Tony Arsenal: Oh, math.

Affirm Or Deny Segment

Jesse Schwamb: Now, of course, if you listen for any length of time, you know it wouldn't be an episode if we didn't have a time of affirming with or denying against.

Of course, that is that time where we pick something that we like, we think everybody should be a part of, that we wanna recommend, and we affirm with it. Or on the opposite, instead we say, "We deny against this thing because it's just no good." So Tony, on this 500th episode, I'm just gonna keep saying it over and over again, so lest the listeners forget, what are you affirming with or denying against?

Tony Arsenal: Yeah.

Scammer Payback Recommendation

Tony Arsenal: I'm affirming, um, a little YouTube channel that I found. Uh, it takes a little bit of setup to explain it, but the, the channel is called Scammer Payback. Ooh. Um, and it's, it's a... I think most people have probably seen, like, the Gene Fieith- Gene Veith, um, like, where he, he gets a, some sort of scammer on the phone, and he sorta just, like, [00:10:00] trolls them and makes, kinda makes them sound dumb and, you know, pretends to play along just to see how long he can keep them on the phone.

Those are really funny. These are funny, but they're on a whole different level of seriousness, which is a weird sentence. Um, basically what this is is a group of professional hackers, um, and there's, this is a serious kinda sting operation they have going. They don't use their real names on the channel.

Um, there's one, there's one, um, where they interview, like, a social, um, a social engineer whose job is to... Her- she is a person who basically, uh, does social hacking, and she helps companies who, who their security people think, like, their executives are, um, susceptible to social engineering, social hacking.

She'll actually call and, like, mess around with the CEOs and socially hack them. Um, they interviewed her, and the first thing she said when she sat down was the person she was talking to's first name, and the guy was just stunned. He's like, "I- we- we've never used my first name on the channel before." So they're very serious, and what they do is they identify [00:11:00] a scam or a g- usually a group of scammers, and they'll actually hack into and infiltrate the computer systems that they're using.

And so they show you everything that they're doing. Um, they're, they're explaining the scam and how it's run. Um, and a lot of times they're actually actively intervening in, uh, in a scam, trying to stop a scam that's in progress because somebody is about to lose a lot of money.

I mean, I think one of the things that's important about this is our audience, you know, mostly, mostly guys probably, like, age, I don't know, late 20s, early 30s, maybe early 40s, we kind of grew up and lived, lived in a world most of our adult lives or all of our adult lives where, like, fishing schemes and other kinds of, like, um, data s- data theft, like, that was just in the air.

It was just normal. So we're... It's not like we're immune to it, but we're used to it, and we're ready for it, and we're looking for it. That means that most of us have parents that are in a generation who are particularly susceptible to this. [00:12:00] So I think it would be worth, worth people's time to take a look at this, uh, just as a educational piece, and then, yes, share it with your family members who are in this era.

People get taken for a ton of money. Yeah. The reason that these older generation sort of bu- builder Boomer generations are targeted is not just because they're somewhat soft targets, but they also have the money. Um, most of, most of the wealth in our country is possessed by people in that generation.

It's just an economic fact in a lot of places and a lot of areas, and so that's why they're targeted. So take a little bit of time, watch the show. It's... And it's entertaining. It's really well produced. It's funny. These are non-Christians, you know, who are, are being non-Christian, so there's a fair amount of salty language, especially when they're interacting directly with the scammers that they absolutely hate.

Um, but it's, it's worth watching. And, and it... I think it'll... I think it's entertaining. Most of the time it's like a 15-minute video, so it's not too much of your time. Pop that on two times [00:13:00] speed on YouTube and, and you're all set.

Jesse Schwamb: And when you say salty you're not talking about Salty the Singing Songbook, right?

Tony Arsenal: Correct. Yeah. Not P-S-A-L-T-Y. S-A-L-T-Y.

Jesse Schwamb: Just in case. I wouldn't want any of the loved ones to go and just be waiting for Salty to show up, like, in the mid- Which would be kind of epic in the midst of this, like, scamming shutdown, the sting operation. Like, Salty s- pops up and starts singing about restorative justice and- Yeah

what it means that God restores all things. I mean, that would have a good place in this, but I just want that just to be clear. We don't, we don't want anybody to, to at us on that.

Tony Arsenal: Yeah, for sure. Well, Jesse, what are you affirming or denying tonight?

Jesse Loves Algebra

Jesse Schwamb: I'm going to return to that beautiful intro you gave about mathematics and the whole Elon Musk thing.

And so my affirmation is simply, like, just do... Just enjoy all the math you can. Use all the math that you know. So my wife and I were watching some kind of program on YouTube, and it was a program in which there are a couple [00:14:00]people competing in this kind of escape room situation, and as escape rooms are want to do, there came some kind of small math problem.

And it goes something like this, is the best I can remember it. It was what number between one and nine when it is tripled and five is added to it is the same as that number being doubled and having one added to it? Now, as soon as that problem was read, we were watching intently, and I turned to my wife and I said, "Why do they need to say it's between, like, one and nine?"

And she goes, "Well, how else would they know what the number was?" And I was like, "Well, like, this is a beautiful little algebra thing, like se- series of equations. Like, you have two equations here." And she's like... Just gave me a blank look. So I was like, "Oh, man." So she's like, "Okay. Do it then. Do it." So I was like, "Give me a piece of paper."

So I, I was just like, this is gonna be such a beautiful thing. So I was like, "All this is, is, like, it's basically 3x minus five equals 2x plus one. You're solving for whatever this missing number is, and they've given you this beautiful setup, [00:15:00] which you rarely get in real life, but this beautiful setup is a system of equations.

We have two things you know are gonna turn out to be the same. They've just been said in different ways, and that allows you enough space to figure out how to solve for them using a little bit of algebra." So I realized then this is why they said between one and nine, because the contestants then proceeded just to iteratively pick numbers until they found the answer, which is not a bad way.

Like, that's a way to use, like, all the math you have. Certainly, that's a way. But I showed her how it was like, this is the answer, six, and you don't even need to know where to start because you don't need to start anywhere. You can actually figure this out. Still not really impressed. And then she said something to me that just, like, kind of rocked my world.

I said, like, "Well, I'm sure this is familiar to, with, to you." And she's like, "Oh, yeah. Like, I learned algebra." And she goes, "Yeah, I, I know algebra. I just don't do it anymore. I just don't use it anymore." And I was like What, what I heard was, like, basically her saying to me, "I used to brush my teeth, but I just don't do it [00:16:00] anymore."

'Cause I was like, "This is such a beautiful thing." So then I got it in my head, well, well here's the problem. It's just a matter of seeing the results. So I was like, "Well, here's the amazing thing is yes, these are abstract concepts. Yes, it's like each of those is a function. It's, it's a representation of what he just said in the problem.

But," and this is my grave mistake, Tony. But I was like, "Really, Descartes showed us that we can think about these not as abstractions, but we can plot them geometrically as lines on a Cartesian plane." And so I was like, "Really we can show that these are two lines and they have a relationship together." And then I was like, "Guess where they intersect?

Guess where they intersect?" And she's like, "I w- that's impossible to even know. I have no idea where they intersect." I was like, "No, no. Just, just based on what we're saying, the beauty of this is they have a relationship. They're gonna come together at some point, like you and I in life. They're gonna, they're gonna come together.

Guess where that would be?" And she's like, "That would be impossible to know." And I was like, "It's not, actually." So I showed her that, you know, left and right, up and down, X and Y, however you wanna speak [00:17:00] about it, those two lines are gonna intersect, at least on the X. The X spot is gonna be the number six.

It's the same thing. Still nothing. So after all of that, I just appreciate my wife is such a brilliant lady, that she just doesn't need algebra. She goes through life just, like, crushing problems without... Like, because she'd like to do it, I think, just the, the more challenging, difficult, iterative way. And, uh, she doesn't use algebra anymore.

Just no need for it. So in many ways I respect that. In other ways, again, the affirmation is like, use all the math you have available to you because it's a beautiful thing. I think basically at the end of that I ended up in, like, a very supreme place of doxology, and my wife was like, "Can we just go back to watching TV now?"

So but I, I have to say, like, and I, I know you, you share my appreciation for math and stuff like this. Like, it's not even just puzzles. It's just the beauty that, like, we can do this, and that there's such a created order, like a supremely created order, that these rules of ma- mathematics aren't just impounded.

They're like the fabric in which God has, [00:18:00] has basically woven all of reality such that we can do this kind of thing, and that even a simple problem in escape room can lead us to appreciate how intensely ordered and beautiful the world is, that we can go after knowledge and solve for explicit things that seem abstract beyond our comprehension and reason to begin with, but have been brought to a place we might understand them.

That is, like, an insanely glorious thing to me. So algebra is great, loved ones. I've recommended before, but the side affirmation is go to Khan Academy if you wanna brush up on your algebra skills. I think algebra is, like, some of the most beautiful and intensely practical math ever. I love calculus, but calculus you don't get a lot of, like, use.

You can use algebra to solve all kinds of things, whether it's like tips or... Like, it's gonna save you so much time. If you're ever in escape room, I'm just telling you, do not do this iteratively. Just get the, your system of equations down, and you will be, like, tearing out of that room, and then you'll look like a hero.

Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah.

Math In Everyday Life

Tony Arsenal: I mean, I think, like, even the f- even the, the... How do I wanna say this delicately? Uh, [00:19:00] even the idea that we, quote, "don't use algebra" means people don't actually understand that we're using algebra all the

Jesse Schwamb: time.

Tony Arsenal: Exactly. Right. Like, I could buy I don't use calculus or I don't use trigonometry- Right

or even I don't use geometry. Um, but to say I don't use algebra, like just basic. I mean, I know like basic equations are, I guess, technically arithmetic, but like how many times does someone have to, have to go, "All right, the tip, the, the bill is X number of dollars. The bill is-" Right ..."$100, and I wanna give a 15% tip, so what's the outcome?"

Like, that's an algebraic equation, right? That's right. Um, or a more, I think a more common one would be like, "All right, the bill is this amount. I want my, uh, my final amount that I give billed to me to be an even number."

Jesse Schwamb: Right. "

Tony Arsenal: And I also want to give at least 15%, 20%, whatever percent, so what's the number I need to use in order to get to a bill that is, or a [00:20:00] tip that is both 15% or higher and results..."

Like, all of those things are algebraic equations.

Jesse Schwamb: Yes.

Tony Arsenal: So I think, yeah. I mean, even like, "I need to get to work by such and such a time. What time do I need to leave?" Right. "I know it takes-" Exactly. "... a certain amount of time." Right. So I think we, we all use algebra a lot more than we, we probably realize, and I think you're right.

Like, when people say, "Well, I don't use my math anymore," what they're saying is like, "I don't use, I don't use the stuff that I had to show my work on anymore." Right. "I don't use the stuff that I have to do on paper anymore." But, um, it's funny, we had a, a conversation, by the way, Reformed Tele- Reformed Brotherhood Telegram chat is a thing.

Uh, we had a conversation in the Reformed Brotherhood Telegram chat a little while ago. One of our members was trying to figure out some sort of, like- And it was a problem having to do with like a, an air conditioning throttle or whatever it's called. Some sort of like programming in an air conditioner.

And we went through it, we figured out that one of the like relatively complex parts of the equation that he was trying to figure out actually no matter what values you [00:21:00] put in, uh, equated to one. And then the other one was like it was ti- and then it was times one. So it was like whatever you put in ended up to that times one was the rest of the equation.

It was like a huge, or like a relatively large equation that resolved down to one. So it was like you're trying to figure out all this complicated math and really like that entire, uh, that entire complicated equation was doing nothing in the rest of the equation. Nice. It was doing absolutely nothing. Um, so we were able to sort of like figure out, all right, well now all we need to do is figure out what, what this relationship does.

Right. Um, and even something like in that particular situation, there were some values that the equation couldn't possibly balance. Which again, you could plot that on a graph and see like there's a spot... I don't, I'm, I'm making this up, but I think this is probably not wrong. There's a spot where it's like this is a parabolic equation, and so at some point the parable, or the par- parable, I didn't even mean to do that.

There we go. At some point the [00:22:00] parabola goes back up, and so like there is no point- Right ... when it reaches this number. So values that would be in that, in that zone or in that range- Right ... they, they don't work in the equation. So yeah, I think math, uh, algebra is, uh, you know, basic arithmetic obviously is, is relatively straightforward.

Algebra's probably the most simple, uh, form of math that your average person uses on a regular basis.

Jesse Schwamb: For sure.

Trigonometry And Design

Tony Arsenal: But it's funny, I remember the first time, um, the very first time that I realized trigonometry was not just some abstract thing that we would never use. And it's so funny, 'cause it's like the nerdiest, the nerdiest example.

I was playing a tabletop RPG with my friends, we were in high school, and we were, we were learning trigonometry at the time. I was playing a tabletop RPG, and we were trying to figure out- Um, it was a, it was like a futuristic tabletop RPG, so we were using like, like laser guns or something like that that have a certain range.

And we were trying to figure out if the thing that was flying in the air from us was within range or not.

Jesse Schwamb: Nice.

Tony Arsenal: And what we realized [00:23:00] is that's just a quadratic equation, right? Right, it is. I just need to calculate. I know how far away it is from me in a straight line, I know how high in the air it is, so I need to just- Right

now I need to... Or not, not the quadratic. That's Pythagoras' theorem, right? Yep. I need to calculate the Pythag- or the, um, the hypotenuse.

Jesse Schwamb: I'm with you. I

Tony Arsenal: knew where you were going. Yeah. So, like, I remember distinctly, I, I mean, I remember where I was sitting in my friend's basement going, "Oh, my goodness, trigonometry actually has a practical application here."

Um, you know, whether that's figuring out how much rope I need to be able to, to attach to a tree and still be able... Like, all of these different things ultimately are math, and, or as the, the Brits say, are maths. And, uh, the, it, it's just a beautiful thing. And I think you're right, like, this is evidence that the universe has a structure- And a designer because- Right

you can describe the universe using this- Nice ... sort of universal numerical language that, um, in, for the most part, describes everything we can [00:24:00] see. I mean, obviously, like, they're still learning things. They're still figuring things out. But what we can see with our senses, we can also describe with math on some level.

Even something like the colors that we see can be reduced to a, a number, a frequency, a wavelength. So yeah, I'm with you. Use your algebra. Find ways to use it.

Jesse Schwamb: Use it. It's the... I like what you said, that we're using it. We just don't realize it. There's a spiritual lesson in there, I think, as well, that it's, it's present all around us, and it's...

I like what you said. It's, like, the, the most, like, grabbable. It's the thing that's pretty easy to grasp, yet has, like, some beautiful outworkings that are super complex. All the time I love to, like, mess with people, even people who are, like, say, like, "Oh, I'm not into math." I'm like, "That's okay." Like, it's...

You're, you're living in a mathematical world, and you're certainly using it, but that, that's okay.

Imaginary Numbers Wonder

Jesse Schwamb: But like, sometimes I'll just say to somebody, like, "How do you know, like actually know that, like a negative number times a negative number is a positive number?" Like, who came up with that, and how do you know?

And why are we just trusting him? Why can't somebody just say, "You know what? For me, it's not. I'm gonna make that a [00:25:00] negative number"? And w- the reason is because algebra provides... There's a lot of proofs, but algebra provides the most simple, beautiful proof. And then once you, once you basically contravene that law, like, everything falls apart.

I- it's... And the question we should be asking is why does everything fall apart if we contravene one simple law, wh- which is two negative numbers multiplied, the product of them has to be, must be, is always a positive number. And that's, like, not even getting into, like, the more crazy things. Like, everybody should go look up, like, what imaginary numbers are.

That will kind of mess with your mind, but then we found ways to use imaginary numbers, which are exactly what they sound like- Yeah ... to solve, like, incredible problems. Where does that come from? It comes from the Lord. It comes from God's, like, creative ability that He's placed in mankind to go after and to take a dominion over the knowledge and the creative order in such a complex and creative way.

It mimics and mirrors the creativity of our Heavenly Father, and it is altogether beautiful. So on this- Yeah ... 500 episode that has a lot of numbers associated with it, I [00:26:00] say go love the numbers. Go enjoy them. Wherever you are in life, whatever your enjoyment of math is, big or small, go try to find some way to enjoy it today.

Tony Arsenal: Can I, can I throw in a, a weird relevant sub-affirmation to your affirmation? I

Jesse Schwamb: mean, please.

Tony Arsenal: This is our show, so I'll do what I want to. You can do what you want. First, when you say we live in a mathematical world, all I could think of was some Perry song of Material Girl. Material

Jesse Schwamb: World?

Tony Arsenal: Yeah.

Odd Squad Math

Tony Arsenal: I am a mathematical boy, and I live in a ma- Anyway, um, there is a show that I watch with August, my son, who is almost five.

Uh, he'll be five in March. And, um, it's called Odd Squad. And what Odd Squad is, is it's a sort of a s- like a spy-themed kids show with a touch of like, uh, almost like Twilight Zone. Like, there's so- It's they manage odd. Like, they're the Odd Squad because they, they respond to odd emergencies, so it's a lot of like weird monsters and aliens and like time travel paradoxes and strange stuff.

But the answer [00:27:00] to the problem is always related somehow to a math principle. So they will talk about how like multiplication is just addition like many times over.

Jesse Schwamb: Sure.

Tony Arsenal: And that's actually why multiplying a negative number times a negative number is a positive number or, you know, like, or multiplying by a negative number is a negative number, right?

And that's because like really what you're doing if you multiply two, uh, two times negative three is you're subjecting, you're subtracting two from two from two, which gives you, you know- Right ... a negative number. So it's, it's not, uh, it, it's for kids, but I actually have realized that I understand math better-

because of watching the show.

Jesse Schwamb: I

Tony Arsenal: love it. And it's because they break it down in, you know, the, the audience- Yes ... the target audience is a little bit older than August. I think the target audience is probably like six to seven, maybe eight years old. Um, and so they're talking about math principles geared towards those groups.

But they'll talk about things like [00:28:00] using a number line to be able to understand math, and so like visualizing it. Or they'll talk about how multiplication is really just groups of things. So yeah, check it out.

Why Math Matters

Tony Arsenal: And again- Algebra is probably the most, uh, easy to grab of the disciplines, but that's because that's the one we are using every day all the time.

Tony Arsenal: And we don't realize it. But again, like, calculus is a beautiful, a beautiful thing. Um, and there are some amazing things that exist in the world that can really only be understood and described in a certain sense by something like calculus or trigonometry. Um, my favorite, I, I wish I had, like, kept it up, but one of my favorites is geometry 'cause I think a lot of it is, that's, like, the closest to puzzles.

Yes. Um, uh, so, like, I, I used to love doing proofs and axioms and stuff. So, and then of course logic is technically related to math. It's a related discipline to math- It is ... in that it, it's, it's actually, like, the language that underlies a lot of the mathematics is [00:29:00] logical formulas. So it's all relevant.

It's all beautiful. It all describes God's creation, and it all redounds to His glory.

Jesse Schwamb: You got that right.

Mark Growing Seed

Jesse Schwamb: And speaking of both His creation and His glory, and Jesus teaching of both of those things, we are, as we promised, hanging out in the Book of Mark, and we've got just four sentences. And what I love about this parable that we're about to read is it fits in so perfectly with something I think you and I have been saying from the very beginning, which is it's tempting when we think about the parables to consider, like, a single element or to distill them down to, like, a single word and say, "We hear the kingdom of God is this thing, this noun, this object, this person."

But instead, the case we've been making is it's actually generally a series of verbs, or in this case, it's the whole four verses that Jesus is gonna give to us here. So let me just read Mark 4:26-29. That's all it is, loved ones. And it's a good thing because we're already knee-deep into this 500th episode.

So this goes by various names. I've heard it called, [00:30:00] like, the Parable of the Growing Seed, or sometimes people call it, like, the Parable of the, The Secret Seed. I'm not sure that's really secret, but I suppose the increase is secret in a way, and that's really what Jesus is communicating to us in these verses.

So Mark 4:26: "And Jesus was saying, 'The kingdom of God is like a man who casts seed upon the soil, and he sleeps and he rises night and day, and the seed sprouts and grows, how he himself does not know. The soil produces crops by itself, first the blade, then the head, then the mature grain in the head. But when the grain is ripe, he immediately puts in the sickle because the harvest has come.'"

Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah, this is, um, an interesting parable, and I'll be the first to admit, like, when you said, "Well, why don't we do the king- the parable of the growth next?" I was like, "I don't actually know what Jesse's talking about." So if you're in the same boat as I am and [00:31:00] you, uh, you are like, "Wait, there's the... This is a parable?

Like, this exists in the Bible?" Um, you're not alone, and I think part of the reason is that, one, it's so short, but it also sort of, like, connects into the next parable thematically. I don't know necessarily- Hmm ... about the content and the meaning, but thematically it sort of blends into the next parable, which is the parab- Mark's version of, um, of the parable of the mustard seed.

So it's, it's hard to delineate unless you're really thinking about it, but I'm glad that we're talking about it because I think this is probably one of those parables that doesn't get a lot of attention because it's so short and because it is, um, it is sort of thematically in a spot where I think it does sort of, I don't know, like seep into the next- Right

parable.

Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, there's a tendency because you're right, it's sandwiched between the Parable of the Sower and the Parable of the Mustard Seed, both of which we've talked about from Matthew's perspective, that it seems like maybe the theme is redundant, but [00:32:00] it is altogether different with the emphasis. Uh, there, it's true I guess that all three of these parables are addressing that same underlying question the disciples in the early church were asking, which is, if Jesus truly inaugurates the Kingdom of God, then why does it seem so impressive?

Why is it so slow or hidden in contrast to all the expectations that the Jews had for what they thought would be this dramatic, immediately visible rain? And so I like that there is a lot said within four verses. And again, from our perspective, this thing seems so distinctly reformed in its under- Yeah

of course the whole Bible is that way, but maybe nothing more so than this, especially because we'll get to it, but the center of this parable being, and there's various translations, that this guy doesn't even know. He doesn't understand. He's totally ignorant to what is going on, and isn't that... I, I mean, I can only speak for my own test- that's the story of my life, uh, spiritually and otherwise.

That again, if you wanna talk about God doing all the verbs, I guess Mark had it first. I thought maybe I coined that, but [00:33:00] turns out that Mark, well, actually Jesus, the Son of God himself, says it best here. So let, let's get into this because the beautiful thing is you and I can handle theoretically in the time allotted here, like three or four verses.

That, that's theoretically possible for us to do, but we, we're only gonna h- see how far it goes. Um-

Tony Arsenal: Yeah ...

Hidden Kingdom Growth

Jesse Schwamb: I think the first thing to say here is that we get that beautiful characteristic, like formula, like the controlling paradigm. It's that Kingdom of God again. And a- as I kinda set up, it's the Kingdom of God, though, launched into a bunch of, uh, verbs.

Uh, this idea of like him casting, and then him sleeping, and then him waiting, and then him getting up, and then the growth happens, and then he comes again at the end, this character, this farmer, into kind of the consummation of that kingdom. And I think there's a lot here that's maybe to explain that tension.

The kingdom is real and active. It's irresistibly moving towards some kind of fixed end, but it does not appear in its final glory, and that is something you kind of get with the other two parables. [00:34:00] But here it's just like so lovely. It's right in front of you. That, that's like the whole emphasis and thrust of what Jesus seems to be saying in this.

Tony Arsenal: Yeah, and I think this one's interesting because, you know, generally in the parables, at least in, in... I, I would have to do a little bit more study to know if this is, like, distinctly Markan or whatnot. But in the, the, um, Matthew's parables, um, or Christ's parables reported in Matthew, um, primarily the main figure of the parable is, uh, is generally is God or, or more specifically is often Jesus himself.

Jesse Schwamb: Right.

Tony Arsenal: Right? But in this parable, it wouldn't make sense for us to say that somehow g- you know, God or Jesus scatters seed, and then He doesn't know that it sprouts. Right. Right? So, so the, the parable implies that the one scattering seed, and again, we don't wanna over-interpret parables. Generally speaking, parables are teaching kind of a principle of some sort, a comparison of some sort, not, it's not an allegory.

[00:35:00] In, in most cases it's not an allegory where each element has a direct representation of some sort. But it wouldn't make sense for this to be talking about God's perspective on scattering or Christ's perspective on scattering, 'cause obviously God and Jesus, even, even if we're talking about Jesus according to His humanity, um, has some sort of awareness of the workings of the Kingdom of God that is not the ignorance that the parable here seems- Right

to present of the one scattering.

Scatter Then Rest

Tony Arsenal: So I, I really do think this parable has more to say to us about- Our own perspectives on evangelism and on how the Kingdom of God will propagate. And I think, um, both in terms of, like, evangelism, there's an element here, an encouraging element of, you know, all your s- your job...

And what's really funny is I, I don't recall this parable being used in my experience to sort of [00:36:00] encourage people that all, your own, your job is just to scatter. You don't need to worry about the growth. Mm-hmm. There's a, there's a passage in Paul about one person scatters, one person waters, and God brings the growth that is often used to sort of say, like, it's not your responsibility to make sure that the, the, the, um, the bud is, you know, c- comes to flowering and to fruiting.

It's just your job to be faithful to scatter or to water or whatever step it's on. This, I think, has even more encouragement for us in that the one who scatters, um, i- is obviously God, but there's also this element that, like, we're scattering. The one scattering is not omniscient. But the one scattering, uh, he doesn't even know how or why or even that, I think, that the, um, that the f- the growth is occurring, and that's the most- Right

remarkable part of this. Like, we're not talking about a normal farmer who is aware of how growth [00:37:00] occurs, is aware of the timing. He's constantly checking. He's making sure that he's checking the soil, that he's applying manure, that he's watering the crops. This is literally like some dude who just throws seed out, and then, then just goes back to his daily business of sleeping and rising and going about his day.

And then all of the sudden, the earth, quote, "by itself produces." And I think that's the real key here is- There's something about the Kingdom of God and the seed that the Kingdom of God scatters. It's almost like the Kingdom of God itself is the one scattering here.

Jesse Schwamb: Right.

Tony Arsenal: Yep. The Kingdom of God and the seed that is scattered in and as a result of the Kingdom of God, it produces the outcome autonomously.

It doesn't require us to input into it, at least in the context of this parable. Now, again, the Parable of the Talents would be very clear to us that we can't just rest on our loyals- laurels. God expects us to work and to be fruitful for the kingdom. [00:38:00] But there is this element here of, like, you are not the one responsible for the production of the seed and the fruiting and flowering of the seed.

In fact, you're not even responsible for being aware that it occurs or how it occurs. Your only responsibility, the only active verb in this whole thing is... Well, there's a couple. The, the, the main active verb is the scattering. The other active verb is the sleeping. So, like- Right ... we, we scatter, and then we, we rest and we trust that God is going to do His work.

Jesse Schwamb: Right. Even on the face, there's so much in this that does seem mysterious. Like, if you just take this parable and think about the act of agriculture, and I sometimes think about this because I do love plants, and we have a bunch of plants in our house, and I'm horrible at trying to get them to grow. And I think about what still a mystery it is.

With all we know about science, just that you can still plant something, a seed, and water it, and the sugars will break down, and the seed will take root, and that something will grow and flower, and you think, "Oh, who is doing that?" And, and w- [00:39:00] I think we'll get into this, the first and second principles, first and second causes here, which are, I think, certainly something that Christ intends for us to consider here.

But there is this idea that the man's action is simple and passive relative to what follows. He, like you said, just scatters the seed. And he's a real agent, but as the parable unfolds, it's almost like his entire agency recedes entirely from view. And that's what kind of sets for me, like this whole trajectory of the parable.

It's that the mechanism of growth is strangely hidden from the human agent, and it belongs to God alone. And so you already stole it from me, but I'm gonna read 1 Corinthians 3:6-7, which is, coheres directly with what's happening, I think, in this parable. And this reads, or Paul writes, "I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the growth.

Neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God who gives the growth." And so there is like an extension, I think, of that application inward though as well. Kind of like when you were speaking about that, what occurred to me is that we see in the [00:40:00] farmer's like day and night unawareness, this picture, I think, of this often gradual, imperceptible work of grace in our own hearts, in every believer's heart.

Like that, that sanctification process, it proceeds by these degrees, and the Christian cannot fully trace even in himself, yet it is definitely real, and it's definitely God's doing. And then I think as well we might pull out a thread of this, you know, ecclesiological truth. You know, the church's growth is God's work, not the fruit of human strategy.

And then by application even further into that, it's based upon a soteriological one, which is like the ordo salutis, which is maybe half of every episode we've recorded talks about the ordo salutis in some ways. That too is unfolding by this divine power, and it's hidden from the creature's full comprehension, and that's consistent in this parable and in all of Scripture, that this regeneration precedes and produces faith rather than the reverse.

Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah, and I, I think too there's also an element in this passage, you know, when you think about... Uh, [00:41:00] I'm not a farmer, uh, and I, I don't know that many farmers, but when you think about how f- how modern farming works, it's very different than, uh, ancient farming, right? Historically, ancient farming was, uh, I think probably a lot of just trusting the world to do what the world does and, and trusting God to do what, what God does.

A- and I think that's probably why a lot of like- When you look at, um, pagan religion, the, the fertility cults and the sort of goddesses and gods of the harvest were all related because there was this mystery to it. And so the reason that there's so much, uh, cultic worship around fertility and harvest is because it is so mysterious, and you just kinda have to, like, trust that it's gonna happen.

Jesse Schwamb: Right.

Tony Arsenal: Right? You sow your seed in, you sow the seed of your field in, you know, the fall, uh, and, or in the, the, you know, the summer, and then you wait several [00:42:00] months and just hope that the crop comes in. And our modern agricultural world is not all that different. We have better tools and we can measure things that, like the soil, the nutrients in the soil.

We can, you know, we can do all sorts of different imaging to see of what's happening underground. But at the end of the day, even with all of the advances we have, the farmer still can't make the crop come in.

Jesse Schwamb: That's right.

Tony Arsenal: Either the crop comes in or it doesn't. And I, I think there's this element of trust here that I think is really useful for us.

And again, I think you're right. This is like, uh, it feels almost wrong to say it this way, but it's like this is a super distinctively Reformed parable. Like, of all, all of the parables in the, the Gospels, this one is like, on the face of it, a Calvinist parable. Yeah. Exactly. Like, it's like God just grows the kingdom- Yes

and nobody does anything about it.

Jesse Schwamb: Amen.

Tony Arsenal: And I don't need to go into more details than that. But there is this element for us, I think, as, uh, as those [00:43:00] who want to share the gospel, there can be an anxiety around trying to ensure some sort of production, some sort of produce, uh, and productivity from that, that is just not healthy.

And I think, you know, we, we have a responsibility as Christians, um, to be faithful and diligent in doing what God has called us to do. But if, if we read this parable as the one who scatters is sort of like the evangelist, then the only responsibility we have as evangelists, and all of us are evangelists, right, lowercase E evangelists, um, all of us, the only responsibility we have is to scatter the seed of the gospel.

Jesse Schwamb: That's

Tony Arsenal: right. And we're not responsible for the growth. We're not responsible for even really understanding how growth happens, uh, or even, even doing much about it until it's time to harvest that growth. And I think that's, we need to talk about what that means too, because again, like [00:44:00] this is a parable that I think is maybe not as, as clean and clear as some of the, uh, Methanian parables where it really does seem like there's a pretty clear symbolic representation on some things.

This one feels like it's maybe a little muddier in that, um, the main character and the role of the s- the one who's scattering seems to sort of almost shift throughout the parable, which is crazy to say because it's only like four verses long.

Tony Arsenal: But it, it does seem like at some points the scatterer is God, at other points it can't be God, and then it seems like, well, who's harvesting?

It's not really us, so it's gotta be God. So I think it's, it's important for us to hold this parable as more of a general principle about the Kingdom of God than it is about any sort of like really direct one-to-one teaching on the, on the Kingdom of God.

Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. That's a interesting distinction.

Providence And Causes

Jesse Schwamb: Here's what I would say about that, I think, is let's equate this to, like, coffee.

You like a good cup of coffee. I do. I like a good cup of coffee. I think if we were to take, let's [00:45:00] say, the Parable of the Prodigal, that would be for me like a big Dunkin' Donuts coffee. Like, it's delicious, mild-bodied, maybe a little bit light. This parable is like two shots of espresso- Yeah ... 'cause there's a lot in there, and we could probably take a lot of time even t- speaking about, like you're saying, the more shadowy eschatological truths that appear in verse 29 because those, this idea of, like, a sickle in the harvest, I mean, that's imagery drawn from Old Testament eschatological judgment texts.

So that could be pretty heavy in its own right. I think what's critical, before we get to that, is to, like, tease out something you said, which is there is a lot in here about this doctrine of providence, like, this spontaneous self-originating action apart from external human causation. And we've talked a lot, like, we distinguish between primary and second causation.

You know, the Earth is genuinely or generally has second- secondary causes, like an ordinary means through which God's ordinary providence operates, but the ultimate primary [00:46:00] cause of growth is God himself. And so here we see that. Like, there's no exclusion of the farmer's agency as an explanatory cause.

The soil does what it does because God has ordained the natural order to function in this way. That is his prerogative. And so that threefold progression then, blade, ear, full grain, which by the way I had to look up because my understanding of, like, all kinds of different types of grains is very thin and I'm out of my depth here.

But- ... I'm led to believe That that development is gradual, and of course it's ordered, but it's not instantaneous. And so the application here, I think, has traditionally been applied in this corporate individual spiritual growth we're talking about. Like, the church advances through stages of maturity, and so does the individual believer's sanctification, without warranting either impatience or despair at the process's slowness.

This is how God works. He does it in His gracious and kind way. And again, He's using this, all of this agriculture to illustrate that purpose. So there's, like, this buildup, I think, [00:47:00] in verse 28 about the incredible providence of God, both like corporatively, personally, in His world, how He is the primary cause, but also uses secondary causes, not in a disjointed or divorced way, but in a way that encapsulates and magnifies His glory.

And that is then what leads to or will lead to the reemergence in verse 29 of this whole deal of, like, well, if farmer comes back in, and now he returns, but only at the point of consummation, not at the point of growth.

Tony Arsenal: Yeah.

Harvest And Timing

Tony Arsenal: Yeah, and, you know, we won't go into all of the ways that this ties into the other parables, but it's worth, uh, it's worth mentioning that in, in both, uh, the parable of the mustard seed, which follows this, and then also the parable of the sort of sower or the seeds, um, there is this element of this, the one who is sowing seeds is not fully cognizant or aware or, and, and absolutely not in [00:48:00] control of the outcome, right?

In the parable of the sower, um, he scatters the seed promiscuously, right? And the- Right ... the outcome depends on what kind of ground the seed falls on. And in the parable of the mustard seed, it, it's more of a, like, idea that the, uh, the sower sows a seed that seems so small, but it, the growth of the seed is explosive and expansive because of the nature of the seed, not because of the skill of the sower.

Jesse Schwamb: That's

Tony Arsenal: right. Right? In this instance, um- The only thing, again, the only thing that initially the sower is responsible for is the sowing of the seed, the scattering of the seed. But what I also think is interesting is then there is a point where the one who scatters the seed is now responsible to act once he's observed the seed coming to fruition, right?

Now, now what exactly that means and how exactly that applies, I think there's a lot of different things we could talk about. Um, but again, [00:49:00] this is a parable that we have to be careful not to, uh, not to restrict just sort of crassly to, like, evangelism. Right. Exactly. Or, or even just to sort of, like, the eschatological harvest.

Right. That's what's tricky about this parable, I think, that bears ... And I don't think we'll do it, we'll do it necessarily on the show. It'd be worth having more conversations about. But for our own personal study, it bears deeper reflection because this parable cannot be simply reduced to an eschatology parable about what God does in the end.

Jesse Schwamb: Right.

Tony Arsenal: And it can't be simply reduced to a parable about evangelism because strictly speaking, like, we're not really the ones that harvest when the harvest comes in, right? I've, I have heard this parable, um, preached, you know, like I said, although I acknowledge that I, um, like forgot that it existed. I have heard this parable preached as though, like, "Well, our responsibility is to scatter seed.

We're not responsible for [00:50:00] making it grow or making it take root. But when we see that it's taking root, we're responsible for jumping in and harvesting at the right time." I don't think we should draw that conclusion here. Although the, the harvester does see that the ear is ripe, that the grain is ripe, and he harvests it, it would be a weird sort of like shift in the parable to go from the person who scattered seed isn't responsible for its growth, doesn't even know that the growth is happening, but is actually responsible for knowing exactly when to harvest the grain.

Right. So we have to think about this again in gen- in terms of general principles of how the Kingdom of God functions. And w- how it functions is it's mysterious, it is, uh, consistent, it happens on a, a scale and on a predictable outcome that we as individuals don't understand and don't have visibility to, and the harvest will occur in its [00:51:00] time, and it will h- occur consistently and reliably.

So again, like this is... I hope that maybe like the one or two non-Reformed people that listen to the show aren't terribly offended at this, but like this just is Reformed theology, right? There, there is a seed that is sown, God is responsible for the growth, and the harvest necessarily will help it happen when it's supposed to happen, right?

When the r- when the fruit is ripe, it will be harvested. That doesn't mean I'm responsible as the one who sows seed or scatters or m- witnesses to people from making sure that the, quote, "sickle is put in at the right time," or anything like that.

Jesse Schwamb: Right.

Tony Arsenal: The fact is that the sickle will always come in at the right time.

The person who has the final kinda piece of the puzzle in evangelism, I think that's how it often happens. Someone hears the gospel repeatedly from multiple places. They have contacts and relationships that tie into how they [00:52:00]ultimately come to accept the gospel and trust Christ. But ultimately it's the Holy Spirit who brings all that into some sort of coherent, um, execution and application of redemption That will happen in God's time.

So I wanna be careful not to, like, put too much responsibility on us. Right. And again, this is just a parable that I think bears a lot more reflection, that I think because, um, I think Mark in general, because it's so short, uh, gets, it gets overlooked by Christians. I think we would all do well to spend a little bit more time in Mark.

But especially some of these really short pericopes. I think we just read through it, and it's like we read a chapter of Mark, like Mark 4 comes up in our Bible reading plan. Right. And if we're reading the Bible in a year, like, Mark 4 is one of three or four chapters that we read, and this is four verses of that.

Right. We just read over it quick and we c- we just, we don't appropriate any of it.

Jesse Schwamb: Right. It sounds like he's just reiterating a point or he's recapitulating something that he's already said or is about to say, and you're like, "Okay, get on with it." But I'm with [00:53:00] you. This parable, like all of them, is for us.

It's for our joy. It's for our satisfaction and our comfort. And I think from this, there is, like, a single controlling point that's emerging from our conversation, which is the Kingdom of God advances by God's own hidden power toward a certain appointed consummation. And this ought to produce, like, patient confidence rather than human striving or a- anxiety.

In order to give us a sense of calm, a reminder that God's providence is real in all areas of life. Remarkably, we've gotten this far in the conversation, and neither of us has just, has used the M word, which just came to me, and I think we're contractually obligated to say it as a Reformed podcast, and that is this is a prime example of monergism and the sovereignty of grace.

And as in regeneration, the decisive cause of kingdom growth lies outside human capacity and comprehension. I think sometimes the latter part of that seems wrong to us. It makes us fearful because we don't understand it. But the former part should make us feel very happy and [00:54:00] relieved, that the capacity belongs to God and God alone.

That doesn't depend on me or you or anybody else that we know. And this parable, I think, is often been paired with John's image of the wind blowing where it wishes as this picture of the Holy Spirit's sovereign, untraceable operation, which is altogether glorious. And so we have that then, God doing all these things in the first and secondary causes, paired alongside of, and this is what makes it all the more glorious, this ordinary means of grace.

God doesn't bypass the means. The man still sows. The Earth still produces according to its created nature.

Tony Arsenal: Yeah.

Jesse Schwamb: But we're insisting that here, what's illustrated for us, is the means are instrumental, not efficient causes. And what that does for all of us as loved ones under Christ is it safeguards against, as you were saying, both some kind of hyper-spiritual, like, quietism.

I don't know. Like, why, why preach if God does all, all of it? And equally against a pragmatic kind of [00:55:00] activism which says, "Well, faithful technique is gonna guarantee the proper outcome here." And so instead what we get is God in his providence bringing in an inaugurated eschatology, that it is here, it is already, and yet not yet, but in his time, according to his perfection, and according to the work that he's doing at all times, in all ways, the kingdom is moving forward, both like writ large, but also, like, for you and me on a Tuesday.

Yeah. Or on the Lord's day. Like, it, it is all God's work, and what a beautiful thing that emerges from this, that we see his kingdom advancing in our own lives, in the world, and in the entire universe.

Tony Arsenal: Yeah.

Kingdom Not Us

Tony Arsenal: Yeah, and I think maybe to sort of cap this out, one, one more observation of the text here. We, and, and you and I have done it in this show, in this episode, and I think it's fine for us to talk about this sort of thinking about the seed that is scattered in relation to kind of like the individual, uh, ordo [00:56:00] salutis of, of individual people who come to faith.

But the parable itself, sort of properly speaking, is not talking about, um, individual salvation.

Jesse Schwamb: True.

Tony Arsenal: The kingdom of God itself is what's in view here as, as the fruit that is produced, right? And I think where this maybe is the most encouraging to us is I think sometimes we feel as though the, the success of the kingdom of God is somehow related to our ability to move it forward, and that can be as grandiose as thinking that, you know, you are the y- you know, you're the one who's gonna have the insight that's gonna somehow revitalize the church.

You're the next Martin Luther- Right ... or the next John Calvin, um, who John, you know, John Calvin and Martin Luther both would've told you they're not even the next Martin Luther or John Calvin. But all of that [00:57:00] aside, it can actually take a much more subtle form of thinking, like, "If I don't do this thing for my own local church, that our local church will fail," right?

Maybe you think like, "Well, if I don't take care of the worship music, then we're not gonna have worship music and the church is gonna fall apart." Or- Right ... thinking that, like, "Well, my financial contribution is, is so important that if I don't make my financial contribution, the church is going to fail."

That is just not, not generally speaking, just pragmatically is generally not true. Uh, an organization that rests on any one individual is doomed to fail anyways. So that's just pragmatically doesn't work. But even more so, the Kingdom of God as a whole and as a concept is something that God moves forward in mysterious ways, and it will necessarily come to fruition because the, quote, "Earth produces by [00:58:00] itself."

Jesse Schwamb: Right.

Tony Arsenal: Like, I think, I think sometimes parables have, like, a phrase or a line that's almost like the thesis statement. That phrase here, "The earth produces by itself"- We might be able to even say the kingdom of God produces by itself. It's not dependent on anything except God's sovereign will and his sovereignty to execute all that he desires.

That's right. And he desires the propagation of the kingdom, he desires the expansion of the kingdom for the glory of Christ Jesus so that he might be the firstborn among many brothers, right? That's just Romans 8. And this right here is the point of the parable, that although we are tools in the hand of the sower, we're seed that the sower scatters, there's no way for us to know how and when and exactly what happens as the kingdom of God grows.

And the glory of that and the, the assurance of that and the comfort of that is that we can't be responsible for something that [00:59:00] we don't know about. And so just like the sower, the man who scatters seed in this parable, we can sleep, we can rest. We, we go to sleep at night, we rise during the day, we go about our business, and the kingdom of God grows and it, it produces and we know not how.

Like, that's- Right ... that's really, like, the main punchline here. The kingdom of God produces, it grows, and we know not how, and it produces by itself. First the blade, then the ear, then the full grain in the ear, and when this is ripe, the, the Lord puts in his sickle because the harvest has come. Like, this, this is eschatology, this is evangelism, this is ecclesiology.

It's all wrapped up into one parable and four verses that I forgot even existed in the Gospel of Mark. So, like, I think this bears m- we're not gonna spend more time in the, in the show on it, I don't think, although sometimes, Jessy, as we've seen, have conversations after the show-

Jesse Schwamb: Right ...

Tony Arsenal: we decide to come back to it.

But, but I think this is one of those ones where, like, we really as a [01:00:00] community, as a Reformed community, should really think more carefully about this because it is so, so poignant, and, like, it's so short that I think we overlook it a lot of times.

Episode 500 Wrap

Jesse Schwamb: So what have we learned on this 500th episode of The Reformed Brotherhood?

Well, Mark has taught us that the kingdom of God grows by power that is genuinely at work, and yet shockingly genuinely hidden from human sight and control. That's just how it is. The sower does what is given for him to do. He scatters the seed. But that transformation of seed into blade, ear, and grain, it proceeds according to a mystery that belongs to God's providence alone.

We've learned that algebra is everywhere, and we just really ought to embrace it. That's what we ought to... We should be looking for it in all of the places as the algebra itself grows into blade, ear, and then grain, and proceeds into great and glorious thing. And we've learned that, listen, you should never be giving out any of your personal information to anybody who's asking it for you online.

Just [01:01:00] don't do that. These are the kinds of things that you can come to expect going forward on the 501st episode of The Reformed Brother. We're just gonna keep on doing what we're doing, and I think in the end, the most important thing we've learned is that God does all the work. He's done all the work in this podcast, and we are so grateful for all those who have come alongside of us in this journey with either your prayers, your conversation, your words, your critiques, your support financially.

We're all in it together, and we've learned that we're gonna just keep doing it until the Lord stops us.

Tony Arsenal: Yes. Yeah. Amen. Well, Jesse, thank you so much for this conversation. Thanks for your partnership- Oh, thank you ... on this show and in the gospel for the last 500 episodes, 10 years. It's crazy. And until 10 more years-

as we continue to do this, honor everyone.

Jesse Schwamb: Love the brotherhood [01:02:00]

In this episode of The Reformed Brotherhood, Tony Arsenal delivers a rich expository sermon on James 5:1–6, one of the most striking prophetic passages in the New Testament epistles. Drawing on the Jewish literary and cultural context of James's original audience — Jewish Christians scattered from Jerusalem by persecution — Tony unpacks why this text is not a blanket condemnation of wealth, but a devastating judgment oracle against those who hoard riches and oppress the vulnerable. Along the way, he explores the eschatological weight of accumulated wealth, the theology of God's omniscient justice, and the stunning comfort available to the suffering believer. The episode closes by returning to James's thesis: that trials of every kind, including economic oppression, can be counted as joy because of who God is and what He has done in Christ.

Key Takeaways

• James is a deeply Jewish book written to a specific audience — Jewish Christians dispersed from Jerusalem by Saul's persecution, not a general audience of wealthy or Gentile believers.
• The prophetic "Come now" signals a judgment oracle, not a direct address — James is not rebuking wealthy members of his congregation, but pronouncing eschatological judgment on oppressive landowners using a technique common in Amos, Malachi, and Micah.
• Hoarding wealth is not morally neutral — it is self-condemning — The corroded gold and moth-eaten garments are not just symbols of decay; they serve as legal evidence against those who refused to use their wealth for God's glory and the good of others.
• Withholding wages from laborers constitutes a form of murder — In the ancient world, depriving workers of their wages could literally cost them their lives. James draws on Old Testament law to frame predatory economic exploitation as a capital sin.
• God sees and hears the cries of the oppressed — The wages of defrauded workers "cry out" to the Lord of Hosts, echoing the blood of Abel in Genesis 4. God's justice is not passive or delayed out of ignorance — it is certain and coming.
• Matthew 25 reframes Christian mercy as care for the body of Christ — The sheep-and-goats judgment is not a general humanitarian mandate, but a specific call to care for persecuted brothers and sisters — and to recognize that mistreating them is mistreating Christ Himself.
• Trials are counted as joy through the doctrine of imputation — Suffering is not stripped of its pain, but it can be moved from the loss ledger to the profit column because God uses adversity as the instrument of sanctification and glorification.

Key Concepts The Prophetic Address: Who Is James Actually Talking To?

One of the most common misreadings of James 5:1–6 is assuming James is directly rebuking wealthy Christians in his own congregation. Tony Arsenal corrects this by grounding the passage in its literary and historical context. James employs a well-established prophetic technique — seen in Amos, Malachi, and Micah — of addressing an absent party in order to pronounce judgment on them, while simultaneously comforting those who overhear the oracle. His audience is the dispersed, impoverished Jewish Christians who fled Jerusalem under Saul's persecution. There were almost certainly no wealthy landowners in the room. The "Come now, you rich" is a judgment declaration directed outward, designed to assure the suffering poor that God has seen their oppressor and will act. Far from being a proof-text for radical poverty, the passage is a pastoral comfort wrapped in prophetic fire.

Corroded Gold as Legal Evidence Against the Soul

James's claim that gold and silver have "corroded" is deliberately shocking — and theologically precise. Gold, uniquely among metals in the ancient world, does not corrode. By saying it has already corroded, James is not making a metallurgical claim but a moral and eschatological one. The accumulated, hoarded wealth of the oppressor has lost its purpose. It sits idle while workers starve, and in doing so it becomes evidence — a legal witness — against its owner in the court of divine justice. Tony draws a direct line between this image and Jesus's teaching in the Sermon on the Mount about treasures stored on earth being subject to moth and rust. Both brothers — Jesus and James — appear to be drawing on the same shared wisdom, likely rooted in the same household and the same mother's instruction. Unused wealth does not just fail to help others; it actively indicts its holder.

Counting It All Joy: The Accounting Logic of Sanctification

Tony closes the sermon by returning to James 1:2 — the thesis statement of the entire letter — and unpacking the word "count" as an accounting term, directly related to the doctrine of imputation. Just as righteousness is reckoned to the believer in justification, so suffering can be reckoned as joy in sanctification. This is not a call to pretend pain isn't real, or to perform contentment. It is a theological reframing: what belongs in the loss column of the ledger can, by faith, be moved to the profit side — not because the trial was pleasant, but because God is sovereign, good, and working all things toward the believer's conformity to the image of Christ. The oppressor means their wickedness for evil. God means it for glory. The supreme example is the cross itself — the only truly innocent man, suffering the worst evil ever committed, for the redemption of His people.

Memorable Quotes

The corrosion of that gold serves as evidence for the condemnation of those who are harming you — and the corrosion of this wealth is an indication of the corrosion of their very souls.

He sees your pain. He sees your suffering. He sees your victories even when no one else is celebrating them. He sees you — and that should be a great source of comfort.

Imputation is an accounting term. And when we count it all joy, we're taking what should be a red line in the loss ledger — what should be an expense — and we're able to move it to the profit. Not because it didn't hurt, and not because we wanted it to happen, but because our God is good enough to not rob us of the chance to be sanctified.

Full Transcript

Tony Arsenal: Come now, you rich, weep and howl for the miseries that are coming upon you. Your riches have rotted and your garments are moth-eaten. Your gold and silver have corroded, and their corrosion will be evidence against you and will eat your flesh like fire.

You have laid up treasure in the last days. Behold, the wages of the laborers who mowed your fields, which you kept back by fraud, are crying out against you, and the cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of hosts. You have lived on the earth in luxury and in self-indulgence. You have fattened your hearts in the day of slaughter.

You have condemned and murdered the righteous person. He does not resist you." It's always a little, uh, strange to sort of jump into the middle of a series, and, um, you know, Wes is one of the most competent preachers that I know personally, so I trust that he has given you a good and satisfying overview.

Uh, but I don't feel like I would be doing my responsibility if I didn't at least touch on a few things, uh, related to the, the intro to James that I think is relevant for this particular passage in a way that maybe is not relevant for the rest of the book. So some of this I hope is review, I, I anticipate is review, but I think it's worth, uh, touching on.

James, as you know, is the, the half brother of Jesus. He was the leader of the Jerusalem church, and specifically he was sort of the figurehead of the Jewish church as a whole. Um, the Jewish church was the only church for the very early part of the church's growth. There were always, uh, Gentile believers.

Even in the Old Testament, there were Gentiles who trusted in the Lord of Israel and the God of Israel. They were often called God-fearers. They rarely converted all the way to Judaism, but they were sort of seen as an attachment to the Jewish people. They didn't participate in all of the blessings of the Jewish people, but they did participate in most.

They often had the same kind of protection. They were in a form of covenant with God. Um, they were able to worship and offer sacrifices. The temple itself had a whole portion of the temple dedicated called the Court of Gentiles, specifically for these Jewish worshipers. And as the church spread, primarily through persecution, which we'll touch base on here in a minute, as the church spread out from Jerusalem into Judea and Samaria, and ultimately to the ends of the earth, it took on a, an increasingly Gentile Greek flavor.

As more and more primarily initially Greek converts came into the church, and then of course, as it spread to other sort of non-Hellenistic lands, other, other types of people, other nations, other people groups joined the church, the scriptures which-- the New Testament we receive primarily from Paul, at least in terms of the epistles, um, also began to take on a more Gentile flavor.

Not because Paul was a Gentile, but because Paul was ministering primarily to Gentiles What we'll see here is that James is a very Jewish book. I'm sure that along the way there's been several kinds of things pointed out to you to show that, but I wanna show a couple things that not only establish James as the author, James the brother of, of Jesus, but also root the, not only the author, but the audience in a distinctly Jewish Christian, uh, context.

So you don't have to turn there, I'll read this, but in Acts, uh, 15, which is the, the great Jerusalem Council, uh, we read this. It says, "With the following letter..." So the, the council meets, they make a decision about what k- what parts of the Jewish law were going to be commended to and recommended, uh, and required for the Christian believers, the Gentile Christian believers, and when they're done, they send this letter to all of, all of the churches.

And it says, "With the following letter, the brothers, both apostles and the elders, to the brothers who are at, of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia, greetings." Now, I don't know about you, but I always sign my emails the same way, right? I've got, like, my work signature that I have to use, that the, the hospital makes me use with all the proper formatting and colors and fonts, but I always have the same signature.

Mine is very simple. I just say, "Thanks," right? I just sign it as, "Thanks," above my signature, and I'm sure you all have that sort of characteristic way you sign a s- sign an email, or maybe it's the way you say goodbye at the end of a phone call. My father-in-law always says, "So long," which is a phrase you don't hear very often, so it's very distinct to him.

We all have these little tells in our communication that sort of tip off who they're from. If you turn quickly back over to James 1, so just flip the page, uh, to the left here, he starts his letter by saying, "James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the 12 tribes in the dispersion, greetings."

It's the only two letters in the New Testament that we have where the author identifies himself, sends to a sort of generalized audience, and then signs it, "Greetings." Now, James, the brother of Jesus, was the leader of the Jerusalem Church. He was the leader of the Jewish ch- the Jewish Church in general, and he signed the letter coming from the Acts Council as sort of the presiding minister.

If, if we were, y- you might call them, like, the moderator of your business meeting, or we would call them the moderator of our presbytery or our session in the Presbyterian context I come from. He was the one who sort of, like, presided over there, and so the letter that went out to the churches was signed in his name and written, drafted by him.

So we see this characteristic way that the letter is addressed with this final word, "Greetings," which is not used frequently in the New Testament We also see when we look at the language carefully that the audience of this, uh, of this letter, it's debated and there are good arguments, but i- in my opinion, it's very clear that the audience of this letter is not Jewish Christians in general or, uh, Jews who have not yet converted.

There are some people who would say that 'cause they're called the 12 tribes. But instead it is the Jewish Christians who originally dwelled in Jerusalem and were sent out into the countryside after the persecution that was started primarily by Saul. If you look at Acts, Acts 1 which is, uh, the passage where Saul begins to persecute the church or where Saul kinda comes on the scene as the persecutor of the church, there's a couple distinct, um, distinct linguistic markers we should touch base on.

Starting in verse one it says, "And p- Saul approved of his execution. And there arose a day-- that day a great persecution against the church in Jerusalem. They were all scattered throughout the region of Judea and Samaria, except the apostles. Devout men buried Stephen and made a great lamentation over him.

But Saul was ravaging the church and entered the house after house. He dragged off men and women and committed them to prison." When we look at this and we compare it to that, uh, again, that first verse of James where he says to the ones who are scattered, we see that there's a pretty strong linguistic parallel that tells us that the people he has in mind for this letter, the people he's addressing, are the same people who were dispersed or scattered out of Jerusalem in the persecution.

When he says to the 12 tribes in the dispersion, that word dispersion is not really a translation. It's what we call a transliteration. So it's not like we've taken a word and sort of given it an English word. We've just changed the word, the letters over to English letters. In Greek, the word is diaspora, dispersion, and in, uh, Acts 1, the verb used to, to sort of describe this scattering of them is diaspero.

And it is a picture of scattering seed. This is what a farmer would do. So it's not even the normal word we would use when someone is fleeing persecution. It's this idea that God has scattered Christians out into the world, in this case by persecution. He scattered them out into the world to be planted.

A lot of this is where we get phrases from Tertullian about the blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church. Now, why does this matter? As I mentioned, we often think in Gentile categories when we're reading the New Testament, and for good reason. One, we're all, all Gentiles, I'm presuming. I, I don't, I don't think-- I think I mentioned this last time, and no one came up and corrected me.

I don't think anyone here is ethnically Jewish with ancestry that they're directly aware of, you know, where they trace their lineage directly back. Europe is a, a big amalgamation of just about everything, so most of us probably have a smattering of different ethnicities. But none of us are ethnically Jewish to the idea that we would, uh, identify as such in the same way.

And even if we were, we've been raised and grown up in a Gentile context. We live in the West. We have-- We think in different categories. And what's more is most of the New Testament is written primarily to Gentiles by someone who is ministering to Gentiles. So Paul uses a fair amount of, of Hebraisms or things that are related to the Old Testament.

Of course, he's explaining the Old Testament, and he makes ample reference to the Old Testament because that is the word of God, and it is profitable for our teaching, our correction, our reproof, and ultimately for our, our sanctification. But he uses metaphors and language in a way that is not common to the Israel context that Jesus and James and Peter and the other apostles were raised in.

We don't have time to go there, but there's even some metaphors that Paul uses that are actually used the opposite way in, uh, in the more Hebraic Jewish, uh, epistles we have. One example that comes to mind is, um, Paul looks at the concept of milk, and that's not necessarily a good thing, right? It's not a bad thing, but it's what immature believers use, right?

They can't handle the meat of the Bible. They have to be given the milk of the gospel before they can progress to the meat. In the Book of Hebrews, which I don't think was written by Paul, and in other places, Peter uses milk as a way to talk about nourishment, right? We think of the land flowing with milk and honey.

Milk was not seen as some sort of substandard food that was only for babies. It was seen as, like, the richest, best thing that you could eat. We all have a linguistic environment that we grow up in. We all have a shared vernacular. You know, if I say something like, "You can't get there from here," everyone knows what that means.

Obviously, you can get there from here, but you have to take this circuitous route. We know what that means. I think if we went around the room, we probably would find that there is this shared language. And then if we took individual families, we'd find that even within those families, there's further narrowing down of sort of like inside jokes and words that are used in ways that are not necessarily the same as others So when we read James, or when we read the letters of Peter or the letters of John, we should default to thinking more along the lines of comparing them to the words of Christ in the Gospel, first and foremost, and then to the Old Testament before we start to think about them necessarily comparing them to Ja-- or to Paul or to other kind of first century Hellenistic literature.

That's not, of course, to say that Paul and James contradict. I'm sure that we went through a long explanation with much detail when you got to James chapter two, which is, of course, the most famous example. Paul uses the word justification or justify in a legal sense to make or to declare someone to be righteous.

It's the verdict that the judge delivers, and it communicates the status. It actually performs what it says. When the judge says, "I find you not guilty," it changes your status from being potentially guilty to being cleared of all charges. Paul uses it slightly differently. He's not using it in the sense of to make someone righteous or to declare them righteous.

He's using it to say they've been shown to be righteous. They've been validated. They've been vindicated. And if we get that mixed up, that's the source of all sorts of confusion. So when we come to this passage, and we'll get there, I promise, when we come to this passage, we have to understand some of the metaphors and the language that's being used draws from an existing body of shared cultural language that is foreign to us and is in some ways foreign to the rest of the New Testament, apart from what we see in the Gospels

And it's important to remember, and this is why it's so key to land, that the audience of this letter is the persecuted, poor Jewish Christians who probably had a fairly comfortable life, relatively speaking, living in Jerusalem. These are city folks. These are people that live in Jerusalem or farm into the fields immediately around Jerusalem.

They were established. They owned land. They probably had family that they had to leave, and now they're scattered out into the country with nothing. They're sent out into the world with no jobs, no family connections, no social welfare. Because they've left the Jewish faith, at least from the perspective of the Jews, they can't even go to their Jewish brothers and sisters and rely on the hospitality that's required in the law of Moses This is so important when we think about how James opens the letter and delivers what I think is his thesis statement.

"Count it all joy, my brothers, when you face trials of every kind." Trials like not knowing where the next meal is gonna come from, not knowing where the next roof over your head is, not being sure you can feed your children. We all face real trials and tribulations in our life. Some of them are related to our faith, and some is just the fallen human condition in the fallen world we live in.

But we're talking here about a totally different category of, uh, trial and persecution than most of us hopefully will ever experience That brings us to our actual passage now. James opens up this section with a linguistic marker that signifies this is a change in topic. He says, "Come now," or another way to translate it might be, "Now listen.

Listen up." When my son is doing something that, uh, I need him to stop or I need to give him instructions, I hold him by his shoulders and I say, "Look at my eyes. I want your eyes right here. Look at my eyes." That's what Paul is doing. He's stopping and he's interrupting the flow of language. This shows us this is a new topic and a new audience.

James is not speaking to rich Christians in his audience. First, 'cause there likely weren't any rich Christians directly in his audience. Remember, these are the, the poor Christians scattered out into the Judean countryside, into Samaria He's using a technique that's really common in the prophets. It's common in Jesus, where he's addressing the people who are not really listening as a way to establish that they will be judged, to hold them accountable, but also to comfort those who are hearing the message.

This is a form of prophetic address. We see this in Amos, where he's chastising the Jewish leaders. Uh, in Malachi and Micah, this happens. Malachi is primarily, at least initially, is primarily, uh, a book that is railing against the rich leaders in Jerusalem who had oppressed their own brothers and sisters.

The chances that those Jewish cr- uh, Jewish leaders were reading his prophecy or hearing his prophecy is pretty slim. So he was addressing a different group to establish the judgment that he was proclaiming on another party. Jesus does this when he says like, "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees." There were probably scribes and Pharisees in the audience there, but he wasn't just talking to the people in front of them.

He was pronouncing a judgment oracle, a judgment prophecy on all people who fit that category, and James is doing the same thing here James is not opposing wealth generally. Sometimes James is used as kind of a New Testament example to justify the idea that we should all be poor and wear shabby clothing and walk around barefoot and dirty all the time.

Right? This is a key passage that's used, uh, in parts of the church that really emphasize sort of a poverty-based lifestyle. Think of like the wandering monks of the Middle Ages or the, the, um, sort of more radical exclusionists that exist even in our day. I remember when I was in college, I was really enamored with this figure named Shane Claiborne.

Some of you have probably heard of him, and I remember I was so impressed because he, he didn't buy new shoes. He just cut new shoes out of duct tape and put them back together. Now, there's some, you know, there's some rugged, uh, rugged get-it-done-ness that, uh, I think us, uh, New Englanders can appreciate, but God does not call us to wear duct tape shoes, at least not universally.

I'm not gonna comment on whether he calls Shane Claiborne to do that. I also don't think Shane Claiborne does that anymore. Um, some of us he may call to a lifestyle of poverty in association with a mission field or in association with a specific calling. He does not call us generally to be poor or to not gain wealth What he is opposing here is the refusal to use wealth appropriately for God's glory and the accumulation of wealth just for wealth's sake We'll see that as we unpack the language here a little bit.

He establishes that he's not just talking about the earthly hoarding of wealth, as though somehow the very act of accumulating wealth was itself the problem. What he's doing is he's pronouncing an eschatological judgment on those who hoard wealth and use it to oppress others. We see here he says, "Come now, you rich, and weep and howl for the miseries that are coming upon you."

Th- that word weep and howl, those are li-- those are words that are most commonly used in prophetic literature to describe the final cry of anguish. Think about the weeping and gnashing of teeth that Jesus talks about. This is the language he's using. He's talking about the final estate of those who refuse to submit their wealth to God He says, "Your riches have rotted and your garments are moth-eaten.

Your gold and silver have corroded, and their corrosion will be the evidence against you and will eat your flesh like fire. You have laid up treasures in the last days." Now, remember what we said. We, we should read this not in light of some general wisdom, although it is general wisdom that if we accumulate wealth, it tends to not actually go well for us if we're not utilizing it in God-honoring ways.

But we should read this in light of the most obvious connection, his big brother, Jesus, who taught his people, "Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, where thieves break in and steal, but lay up for yourselves treasure in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys, where thieves do not break in and steal.

For where your treasure is, there your heart will also be." To maybe land this linguistic, uh, this linguistic connection a little more, I don't know, vibrantly, I'm gonna speculate a little bit. So if you don't like it, then you can disregard it. This is not God's Word. This is a speculation. I can just imagine little Jesus, little nine-year-old Jesus, and probably little six or seven-year-old James and the rest of their siblings, and there's quite a few of them.

And we have Joseph, uh, who maybe at this time was still living, although probably not. We know he was living until Jesus was later, you know, 12, he was still around, but we don't know exactly when he left the picture. But he was a carpenter, and he was not, probably not overly wealthy. Uh, they had had to pick up and move, you know, cross-country anyways.

They-- We don't know exactly where they were from initially, but they went to Bethlehem, and then they returned to Nazareth. They probably didn't have a lot. There were a lot of mouths to feed and only one business. They didn't have a farm. They didn't own livestock that we know of. I can just imagine a time when little J- little James or one of his sisters was frustrated about the fact that they didn't have anything.

And I could picture Mary getting down and going, "Do not store up treasures in, in, uh, in heaven or on Earth. It's all gonna waste away." The same way we might tell our children kind of a, a moral kind of story. Sometimes we have this picture, last time I was here I, I spoke on Philippians 2, we have this idea that Jesus was somehow like Superman, that he, he was just pretending to be a normal human most of the time.

As it touches his humanity, as, as we think about Jesus as a human, he had a, his own human set of thinking faculties, his own human knowledge. He grew in wisdom and stature is what Luke teaches us. Well, where did he get some of this wisdom? There's a good reasonable argument to be made that some of the pr- more proverbial type sayings that we see in Christ, that they actually come from the wisdom of his mother and father.

And a really good reason to believe that is James relies on the same exact, uh, sort of proverbial wisdom to l- land his point. He doesn't create his own metaphor, he goes back to, at the very least we can say he goes back to the words of Christ. That's a very safe position to take. But this is the shared linguistic context that they both grew up in And he says, "You've done this in the last days."

Now, the, the phrase last days in the Bible, uh, in the New Testament generally refers to the time period from Christ's resurrection to his return. We, for a lot of reasons, think about it as kind of like that climactic end period in time. Depending on your, your persuasion, maybe this is when the Antichrist comes, or maybe this is before or after, or maybe during the time when the church is raptured.

But in either case, we think of that sort of last period in time before Christ finally comes back. But the New Testament writers are really talking about the entire duration, from Christ's resurrection to his return is what they're referring to. But it does have in view this idea that we are in the last times.

The, the final judgment is not necessarily strictly something that's out there in the future. We are living in the last days now, and so what we do and what we say and, and how we worship and if we worship is eschatology. It is the theology of the last times He also positions this as though this is a universal thing going on with those who hoard wealth.

This is a very shocking image. Um, we have very good ways to preserve things in our modern world, right? We have ways to m- to make, uh, stainless steel that won't rust, or at least won't rust quickly. But most things in the ancient world, even most precious metals, corroded. Um, I remember when I was growing up, there was this project in my hometown.

I lived in a, a little town called White Bear Lake in, in, um, Minnesota, although little is relative. It's pretty big compared to most of what we have out here. And I remember when I was maybe 12 or 13 years old, they had this big building project to build this brand-new, beautiful lakeside pavilion in the center of town, and it w- just gleamed in the sun.

It was so gorgeous, and it was made of copper, and everybody loved it, and two years later, it was bright green. I think it's still bright green. I think they figured out it wasn't worth repairing, so they, they just, they just make sure it doesn't keep getting worse, and at some point, I'm sure they either have or will tear it down.

But the one metal in the ancient world that didn't do this was gold. It's part of why gold is such a durable measurement of wealth is because it doesn't wear out. It doesn't corrode. It's very soft. It's very easy to damage it, which is why we don't build statues out of it, or we don't build, uh, buildings out of it usually, but it didn't corrode.

So when James says here, "Not only your silver, which tarnishes and corrodes, but your silver and gold have corroded." Not are corroding, but have corroded. The rich hearer of this is probably, you know, sitting around like Scrooge McDuck with a pile of gold coins thinking, "Ah, it looks pretty good to me." And what James is saying is, "No, no, no.

No, it's corroded. It's eating away at your heart. It's lost its value because you refuse to use it, and so it sits in a pile doing nothing for no one, except serving to further your own condemnation." This is such a crazy, shocking situation that the insanity of not using your wealth, period, the insanity of sitting on your wealth in the ancient world is going to serve as a form of evidence justifying the condemnation of these wicked fools

And further, the corrosion of this wealth is an indication of the corrosion of their very souls. There's something about money. I was-- When I was here a couple times before, I preached one of the wealth passages out of Ecclesiastes, and there's something about money that has a unique way of really, really wrecking us.

Either we don't have it and we want it, or we have it and we don't wanna lose it, or we have it and we don't spend it wisely. It seems like there's an infinite number of ways to screw it up. And we landed last time that the gospel is good news because with the nearly infinite ways of screwing it up, we're going to screw it up.

But the one way that he talks about screwing it up here is hoarding it and sitting on it and not using it

Moving on into verses four and five, James moves us now to a more sort of temporal register. He starts out by talking about what wealth is and what it's doing and how it will ultimately affect the entire life and eternity of those in his targeted audience, those he's proclaiming this prophetic, uh, judgment against.

But in verse four, he moves back to the behaviors that are being, uh, being engaged in to show the state of these people's souls. He says, "Behold, the wages of the laborers you, who mowed your fields, which you kept back by fraud, are crying out against you, and the cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of Hosts.

You have lived on the earth in luxury and in self-indulgence. You have fattened your hearts in a day of slaughter."

James here points at the, at the behaviors that show this hoarding behavior, and he does it for a number of reasons. One, he needs to call out sin. That's part of the role of a Christian, and especially a leader or a minister in the church, is, um, to not only call out sin in the body of, of Christ, but in a, I think a very particular way, and there's all sorts of, uh, all sorts of theological controversies flying on around about Christian nationalism and other associated things.

Some of it is just the spirit of the age. Um, post-COVID, there's a, a real strong sense that our government has failed us and we need to replace it with something else. But there is a, a true way, and I, I think some of those things are a little misguided, but there's a true way that the church, particularly her leaders, should be speaking to the culture around us, and yes, even to the government, to proclaim the truth of God into a wicked and godless culture.

This might take the form o- of a m- minister who goes to a town hall meeting to speak out against a gambling association that's going to be forming, or a, an elder in the church or a deacon in the church who goes to speak to, uh, to the city hall or to the state legislature about the wickedness of abortion and about what we see it does to women's lives when they are fooled into thinking that this is the right thing for them.

Again, the church is not the state, and the state is not the church, and we should be very careful not to cross those lines for all sorts of reasons. But we as a culture, as a Christian culture, in the United States particularly, have lost sight of our responsibility to speak truth in all circumstances to those in power So James is doing that, of course.

But even more so, this is a way that he establishes for his direct audience, for the Jewish poor Christians who have been scattered in this diaspora, in this dispersion. He looks at them in a sense and says, "I see you. I see what's happening to you." And as God's representative, as his chosen voice for this message, as his inspired author, God sees you too

This goes back again, the first two chapters of James serve as kind of a thesis statement and table of contents for the whole book. We get an idea of what may have been happening, the actual, uh, acts that were being engaged in, in, in chapter two verse six, he says, "You have insulted the poor. Is it not the rich who are exploiting you?

Are they not the ones who are dragging you into court? Are they not the ones who are slandering the noble name of him to whom you belong?" James has in mind here a form of predatory land purchasing, where the rich were sort of sweeping up property. They were sweeping it up, and then they were charging probably exorbitant prices to those who would lease the land to try to eke out a living.

Does that sound at all like any of our current context, right? When's the last time any of us have tried to buy a house and found anything reasonable? Well, a large part of that is that there are big companies that are scooping up all the land and buying all the, the developments. Now, I'm not commenting on those particular situations.

I don't know those people. I don't know their hearts, and some of those things actually are doing good things for the community. But we're familiar with this idea of someone who will purchase a resource, who will then jack the price up in order to turn a profit on it. I'm not opposed to turning a profit.

Y- y- yeah, it takes money to run a business, and you have to, you have to recuperate those funds if your business is going to survive. But there's a, there's a way that that can be done that is a predatory act These rich landowners were getting fat on those that they were victimizing In our, in our modern world, we tend to think of someone who is overweight as unhealthy, for good reason, right?

Too much weight, and I say that with someone with a little too much padding around the middle, so no, no judgment on this, but too much weight is not healthy, right? We hear that from our doctors, that there's a healthy weight range and there's an unhealthy weight range. In the ancient world, obesity was not the concern, right?

Malnutrition was the concern. And so when you see, uh, a king in the Old Testament who's, who's noted to be fat, that's not always negative. Sometimes it is, but he's noted to be fat or he's noted to be large. Even the word for glory, I'm sure you've heard this before, the word for glory in the Old Testament has to do with being heavy.

So this idea of weightiness or, um, being able to eat enough to actually gain weight instead of being thin was seen as a good thing, but not when you use it as a way to victimize other people. A person who gathers wealth honestly and enjoys it, that's, that's Proverbs right there. That's the Book of Ecclesiastes in its sort of positive sense, is that we, when we accumulate wealth and we use it for God's glory, it's perfectly okay for us to also use it for our enjoyment.

God wants us to enjoy the fruit of our labor. But when we accumulate wealth and use it as a way to gain power over someone and to abuse them, that is what James is railing against here And ultimately, with the audience that James is writing to, this is a form of murder. This is why he says, "You have fattened your hearts in the day of slaughter."

Because a person who can't feed their family in the Old Testament or in the New Testament era was likely to see them die. There are not a ton of people in modern America that are starving to death on the streets. It's not to say it doesn't happen. It's not to say that there's not things like food insecurity or malnutrition, but there are, there are plenty of places people can go to get their basic food needs met.

It was not like that-- It's not like that in most of the world now, and it certainly was not like that in the ancient world. And so a, a landowner who again refuses, we're talking about the Jewish landowners, refuses to obey the Jewish law to leave some leftovers for the poor, and instead gleans all the way to the corner so that they can turn a little bit of extra pro-profit, is not only sinning against the Old Testament law, but is committing murder in the strictest sense by refusing to preserve the life of these poor, uh, Christians who are destitute

And again, James is encouraging his readers here that the Lord has not ignored their plight. We can think back to the Book of Habakkuk, where Habakkuk basically lodges a lawsuit against God, saying, "You are not paying attention. You're not doing your thing. You're not being faithful to your covenant." And God says, "Let me show you how faithful to my covenant I am.

The Chaldeans are on the way." And Habakkuk is like, "Whoa, wait a second here. That's not what I had in mind." God sees the oppression of the poor. He knows when His people are targeted. He knows when children are abused or when widows are ignored. He knows when the government does something to shut down a church, or when the medical institution refuses to acknowledge your personal rights.

He sees those things, and He's not ignorant, and He's not static. He's not sleeping on those things. The purpose here is to comfort the oppressed by showing that God is not ignorant of what has happened to them. Just two quick Old Testament examples that use similar language. In Genesis 4, we read of Cain and his murder of Abel, and in verse eight it says, "Cain spoke to Abel his brother, and when they were in the field, Cain rose up against his brother Abel and killed him.

Then the Lord said to Cain, 'Where is Abel your brother?' He said, 'I don't know. Am I my brother's keeper?' And the Lord said, 'What have you done? The voice of your brother's blood is crying out to me from the ground.'" Numbers, uh, 35 verses 30 says, "If anyone kills a person, the murderer shall be put to death on the evidence of witnesses, but no person shall be put to death on the testimony of one witness.

Moreover, you shall accept no ransom for the life of a murderer who is guilty of death, but he shall be put to death. And you shall accept no ransom from him who has fled to the city of refuge, that he may return to dwell in the land before the death of the high priest. You shall not pollute the land in which you live, for blood pollutes the land, and no atonement can be made for the land except for the blood that is shed in it, except by the blood of the one who shed it."

There's a rich history in the Old Testament of language of inanimate things, land, blood, wealth, other kinds of things that give testimony to God in some way, and specifically of these inanimate, uh, impersonal things testifying to the sin of the people that dwell around them. Even Christ says, "If these people do not worship me, the rocks will cry out."

Now, the rocks are not literally crying out, although it certainly would be within God's power to make the rocks sing. But Christ is not saying in that passage that the rocks are going to form mouths and begin singing Hosanna or whatever song they might have been doing. What he's saying is that the very rocks themselves give testimony to the glory and goodness of God.

So even if the people around here fail to do so, the entire rest of creation is doing so, and that is what James is saying here. My dear brothers and sisters scattered in the dispersion who have nothing, and in society's eyes are nothing, some of you are facing persecution. Some of you will be killed for your faith, but God sees because the wealth that is being accumulated on the breaking of your own backs is crying out.

The corrosion of that gold serves as evidence for the condemnation of those who are harming you

We often want justice in the moment. I think we always want justice in the moment, don't we? I think it's a really hard discipline to say, "That person wronged me, but I'm okay letting God sort it out." That is a hard pill to swallow, but it is often the pill that we have to take. It's the medicine that God uses to further our justification, our j- our, uh, excuse me, our sanctification Paul says, you know, "Do not take vengeance.

Let the Lord do that." We can trust, and this is where the comfort of this passage comes for us, brothers and sisters, we can trust that when we are wronged, that when someone has done something to us that is a violation of God's law, that that sin will be punished. Now, when we're dealing with other Christians, that sin has already been punished, and so it is not, it is not appropriate for us to hold onto that and to take vengeance.

That's what the parable of the unmerciful servant is all about If I as a Christian refuse to forgive my brother and sister when they've wronged me, it's me saying that I'm a better judge of their sin and I'm a better executioner than the Lord is when he punished that sin on the cross. But that sin was not atoned for when we're talking about unbelievers.

When we're talking about those who will ultimately end their earthly life and find themselves waking up in flames, that sin has not been atoned for, and so God will have his justice, and we will have our justice. We won't turn there, but in Revelation, we're familiar with the passage, I think it's chapter six, where the martyred saints are under the throne and they say, "How long, O Lord?"

Well, God doesn't answer their question, but he gives them new clothes. When Job cries out and he's, he's saying, "I don't understand why this is happening. Why are you targeting me, God? Why, why are you a hunter with your arrows in my liver?" God doesn't tell him why, but he says, essentially, "I'm God and you're just going to have to trust me that this is right."

We see a very similar, uh, kind of situation here when we think about when, uh, when Abraham, uh, when God tells Abraham what he's about to do to Sodom and Gomorrah, and then Abraham negotiates, apparently negotiates with God, uh, trying to secure the salvation of the city for the sake of the righteous. And we read starting in verse 20 of chapter 18, he says, "The Lord said to, to Abraham," he says, " 'Because the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is great and their sin is very grave, I will go down to see whether they have done altogether according to the outcry that has come to me.

If not, I will know.' " God is always seeing and investigating the sin of people We're, we're teaching my son, August, the children's catechism, which is a, a great resource. Um, and one of the questions is, "Can you see God?" And the answer is, "No, but he always sees me." Now that may feel at first to some people like a little bit of a heavy-handed answer, but knowing that God sees us is not just there to correct our sin.

It should do that, right? Even the secret sins we commit in the dark when, when we're not being watched by anyone else, even, even those God sees. But do you know what else He sees? He sees your pain. He sees your suffering. He sees your victories even when no one else is celebrating them. He sees your progress.

He sees you, and that should be a great source of comfort

Now this passage, especially verse six, can be a little bit hard to apply because although we're the targeted audience, we're not the target of the judgment oracle. So I think what we have to do, we have to, we have to think about this in light of the way that God talks about the judgment of unbelievers in other places in the scripture, and how that helps us to understand kind of what our, what our status is.

If you'll take your Bibles and open to Matthew chapter 25, I think the, um, the account here of the goat and sheep judgment, uh, is instructive for us

Starting in verse 31, it says, "When the Son of Man comes in his glory and the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left.

Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.'

Then the righteous will answer him saying, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you or thirsty and give you a drink? When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?' And the King answered them, 'Truly I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.'

Then he will say to those on the left, 'Depart from me for you for, uh, depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, I was naked and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not visit me.'

Then they also, uh, they also will say, answer saying, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and not minister to you?' Then he will answer them saying, 'Truly I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.' And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Now, this passage is sometimes understood as a general command to feed the poor or the sick, or to visit those in prisons, or any of the f- the sort of mercy ministry things that, that, um, are mentioned here. And those are all things that Christians should do, right? We should be engaged in, um, in mercy ministry to the poor, to those who are destitute.

We should be mindful and thoughtful of those who have needs around us. What this passage is teaching, though, is not a general command to feed all people, but a specific command to care for your brothers and sisters in Christ when they have a need He doesn't say to the righteous, "You did these to everyone."

He says, "Whatever you did to the least of these, my brothers, you did it to me." All of the things that are listed here, the, the six mercy ministries that are listed by Christ here, are things that persecuted Christians were suffering at the time, persecuted Jew- Jewish Christians, and that would be common experiences for, for Jewish Christians and for all persecuted Christians.

Right? They're hungry. They don't have food. Our diaspora Jewish Christians don't have land to farm, and even if they're able to scrape together enough funding to lease out a farm, they're being, uh, they're being totally overwhelmed by the cost of that. The sort of homeowners association dues of these pyramid schemes that were going on in the first century, they were so exorbitant that it wasn't even subs- subsistence farming.

Christians were being thrown in, uh, in prison. They didn't have enough money to replace their clothes when it wore out. They couldn't have access to clean water. We take clean water as such a, such a basic thing, and it's so easy. You just turn on the tap, or you just go to the store and you buy a bottle of $7 water.

It wasn't like this in the first century. If you didn't have a well, you didn't have water, unless you had someone who cared enough to share this precious resource with you. And so what Christ is saying to, to his people, both in the immediate audience on the Sermon on the Mount, uh, and in this, the Olivet Discourse here, what he's saying to his people is when someone in the body of Christ does not have what they need, the body of Christ should step up and make sure that that is the case, that they take care of that person.

And likewise, he's saying to those who are not a part of the body of Christ, "Depart from me, I never knew you." Now, the intro to this, why it sometimes is called a parable, is the sheep and the goats. We sometimes go way too far into the arena of comparing the behavior of sheeps with the behavior of the people here, right?

Sheep are nice, they're affable, they listen to you. In reality, from what I understand, sheep are pretty dumb and can be very stubborn, right? And then we, we read and we go, "Goats are stubborn, they're rebellious, they're not really good for anything." Well, there's a reason people have goats on farms. They, they can be stubborn, right?

They can be destructive, but they also serve a purpose. So the point here is not that sheep are good and goats are bad. The point is that sheep are not goats and goats are not sheep. And, uh, another point that comes with this is sheep don't become goats by behaving like goats, and goats don't become sheep by acting like sheep.

I have some friends that will tell you they have very affectionate, friendly, lovable goats, right? I'd, I would... If I could get my kids one of those little pygmy goats that everybody loves, I would do that, 'cause they can be very kind, very sweet, and they're very smart. But they're not sheep. And if you read this passage carefully, this fact that those who are taken to the right are, are in fact taken to the right is not because they fed the poor.

It's not because they ministered to Christ by feeding the least of these. They did those things because they were part of the kingdom

The King says to those on His right, "Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world." The sheep on the right were always going to be the sheep on the right. They were predestined according to the counsel of God's will before all time to live and walk in good works.

That's just Ephesians 2 there. That's also just James 2 there. You have faith, I will show you my faith by my works. This is evidence language, loved ones Likewise, the ones who are told to depart into eternal darkness were also predestined not to inherit this kingdom. No kingdom was prepared for them before the foundation of the world.

They have no inheritance. They have nothing. They will end up in the state that they are trying to impose on these poor Jewish Christians. They will end up in the state that they may be trying to impose on some of us in this room

And for the final verse here in, in chapter five, in verse six here, there's a lot of discussion and debate in the commentaries about who the identity of this righteous one is. It says, "You've condemned and murdered the righteous person, he does not resist you." Now, some commentators will take the fact that this is the singular righteous person, that he has been murdered and h- was condemned, and will take this as a reference to Christ.

And that would, would make good sense, right? The Jewish, the wealthy Jewish landowners, the wealthy Jews in Jerusalem who per- who persecuted and cast out, um, the Christians, they were in the same group of people who condemned and murdered Jesus And at least at the time of writing this, and in many ways in our own day, God is not necessarily resisting them.

He's allowing them to store up judgment for the coming day of wrath There are others who will take this as sort of the hypothetical singular, right? The righteous one or the righteous person is this, uh, representative hypothetical person that represents all of the persecuted Christians. And so it's more like saying, um, to the, the wealthy landowners who are persecuting Christians, "You have condemned and murdered the Christians, the righteous people, and we do not resist you."

Now, at the end of the day, it's, it's always good to have good, sober, well-intentioned, text-based debates about what the Bible means. We can and we should try to convince others, uh, when we think they're wrong about what the scripture means. So that's not what I'm saying here. But in many ways, which of those two perspectives it actually is doesn't change the interpretation of this passage.

Like we read in Matthew 25, like we read in Acts 9 when Christ comes and confronts Saul, what you do to God's people, you are doing to Christ himself. What you do to the body, you have done to the head. It's a little bit weird to say that when I stub my toe, I injure my head, but that's true, right? I don't injure my toe as though it's some separate piece.

It's not like I'm a Lego man where I can just swap out a hand that gets cracked and put it back on. When I injure my toe, I injure myself. My whole body is injured even though it's specific to a part of my body. When you-- when someone persecutes you, when they, uh, try to extort your wealth, your funds, when they try to harm your body, when they try to take away your children, all things that are happening not just out there in the world, but in our country, even in our own region.

When they try to tell you that because you don't wanna play a basketball game, that you can't play sports at all. When a city taxes a portion of a church's property because they don't think it's being used for religious purposes, they are doing that to Jesus Christ himself, and God will not be mocked

This should call us both to faithfulness and to encouragement How people treat Christ or how people treat Christ's people, including how we trust, tr- uh, treat Christ's people, shows us what we think about Christ. The people who take care of the church do so because they love God, and they do it out of a regenerated heart that already loves God.

And the people who hate the church do it because they hate Christ, and they do it out of their wickedness and out of their wicked heart

This brings us back again to the thesis statement of James. "Count it all joy, my brothers, when you meet trials of various kinds, for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness. And let steadfastness have its full effect, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing." And then he says later in that, uh, first chapter in verse nine, "Let the lowly brother boast in his exaltation, and the rich in his humiliation, because like the flower of the grass, he will pass away.

For the sun rises with its scorching heat and withers the grass; its flower fails, and its beauty perishes. So also will the rich man fade away in the midst of his pursuits. Blessed is the man who remains steadfast under trial, for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life, which God has promised to those who love him."

Now, you're all coming up to the end of James here. Um, we probably have two, two more sermons, I would guess, and the rest of this chapter is reinforcing this. It's unpacking for the immediate audience and therefore for us, it's unpacking that although the rich have their punishment coming to them, that likewise our consolation, our comfort from Christ is also coming to us.

He closes the whole letter out, he returns to his thesis statement to say, "I'm not going to pretend that the trials you're going through are joyful, but you can count it all joy." You can reckon it, you can impute it as joy, my brothers and sisters. You can put it in the joy column instead of the t- the pain column, right?

We had discussion about the beautiful word imputation in the announcements and scripture reading in the beginning here Imputation is a, is an accounting term. And when we count it all joy, we're taking what should be a red line in the, in the loss ledger, right? We're taking what should be an expense, and we're able to move it to the profit.

We're able to move it to the positive side, not because it didn't hurt and not because we wanted it to happen, but because our God is good enough to not rob us of the chance to be sanctified When we are oppressed and opposed, those who are oppressing and oppose us mean it for evil, just like Joseph's brothers, uh, and Pharaoh, and all sorts of wicked men in, in the Old Testament and in our own world.

Pilate, Herod, you mean, you name it in the Bible, this applies. They meant their wicked acts for wicked things, but God, rich in mercy, works all things for the good of those who love Him and are called according to His purpose. And what is that purpose? That we might be transformed into the image of Christ so that Christ may be glorified and He may be the firstborn among many brothers.

When we face trials and suffering of every kind, it leads us to our sanctification and to our ultimate glorification. We do not earn those things. We don't sanctify ourselves any more than we justify ourselves, or that any more than we will glorify ourselves or will raise ourselves from the dead. That is all God's work from start to finish.

But God does use these things that He brings us through as a way to bring about that work It's like he bends us over the hammer, over the anvil of trials, and he hammers us until we become a sharp sword in the hand of, in his hand. Or he polishes us with a rough cloth until we become a smooth, beautiful gem, right?

Think of any number of refining things that need to be done. It always involves, if the thing was, uh, was a person, it always involves something that would hurt a little bit. It always involves a little bit of damage to wear away the impurities. Our sanctification and our glorification is no different than that.

He uses adversity. He uses the wicked actions and intentions of, of evil men and women. He uses those things to glorify us. So although we should never, uh, we should never seek those things, right? You don't have to go and make yourself the soft target to the wicked people. It's okay to keep your head down.

There's nothing wrong with that. The Jewish Christians were probably doing their best to keep their heads down most of the time, and that's fine. There's not any words in scripture about being a coward if you don't, if you don't put a target on your back. But your target is gonna get there eventually, and that's not a bad thing.

We can welcome that. We can count it as joy because of who God is and what he's done. The supreme act of suffering, the supreme act of, of evil happened to the only innocent person there ever was, and it happened to him for us. this episode is available below.

In Episode 499 of the Reformed Brotherhood, Tony Arsenal and Jesse Schwamb conclude their extended study of Matthew 25 with a close examination of the Sheep and Goats passage (vv. 31–46). The conversation tackles one of the most frequently misread sections in the Gospels — a text often weaponized for works-righteousness or social-justice reductionism — and recovers its deeply Reformed, gospel-saturated meaning. The hosts argue that the works displayed at the final judgment are not meritorious currency but the spontaneous, unselfconscious fruit of transformed hearts. They explore the significance of the sheep's surprise, the inheritance language of the kingdom, unconditional election, and the precise meaning of "the least of these." The result is a theologically rich, pastorally grounding episode that offers genuine assurance to believers while calling the church to practical, ordinary mercy toward its own members.

Key Takeaways

• Works at the final judgment reveal identity, not merit. The sheep are on the right because they are sheep — not because their accumulated deeds earned them a place. Their works flow from a renewed nature, not toward a threshold they must clear.
• The righteous are surprised — and that surprise is theologically decisive. If the sheep were consciously stacking up merit for judgment, they would have kept careful ledgers. Their inability to recall their own works demolishes any works-righteousness reading of the passage.
• Inheritance is not wages. Jesus' use of the word "inherit" signals that the kingdom is received by virtue of relationship, not performance — a point reinforced by Paul in Romans 8 and Galatians 4.
• Election precedes and grounds the works. The kingdom was prepared "before the foundation of the world," meaning the deepest cause of the sheep's blessedness long predates any of their deeds. Works are downstream of grace, never upstream.
• "The least of these" refers primarily to fellow believers, not to the poor in general. The phrase "my brothers" in verse 40 narrows the referent to members of Christ's body — those who belong to him by adoption, faith, and union with Christ.
• There is no two-stage justification. The final judgment is not a second review of whether one has done enough. It is a reassertion of the righteousness of Christ already imputed to believers — a public vindication, not a fresh assessment.
• Practical, ordinary mercy toward the church is the mark of kingdom membership. The six works listed — feeding, giving drink, hospitality, clothing, visiting the sick, visiting the imprisoned — are not heroic or extraordinary. They are the unglamorous, costly, consistent kindness that flows naturally from those who have been made new.

Key Concepts The Surprise of the Righteous: A Devastation of Works-Righteousness

One of the most theologically loaded moments in Matthew 25:31–46 is the reaction of the righteous at the judgment: "Lord, when did we see you?" They are not feigning humility. They genuinely do not remember. As Jesse Schwamb notes in this episode, this surprise is "devastating to a works-righteousness reading of the passage" — because anyone consciously building a merit ledger would have kept meticulous records. The sheep kept none. Their works flowed so naturally and unselfconsciously from hearts already made new by the Spirit that those works barely registered as remarkable. This is precisely what the Reformed doctrine of sanctification predicts: truly gracious affections issue in Christian practice as the spontaneous fruit of a transformed nature — as natural as a good tree producing good fruit. The works are real, the works matter, but they are not calculated. They are evidence, not currency.

Inheritance, Election, and the Order of Grace

Jesus does not tell the sheep they earned the kingdom. He tells them to inherit it — and he specifies that it was prepared for them "from the foundation of the world." These two details together form a nearly complete statement of Reformed soteriology embedded in the judgment scene itself. Inheritance, as both Paul and Jesus make clear, is received through relationship and not through performance. An heir does not negotiate terms; an heir receives by virtue of who they are in relation to the testator. Layered on top of this is the language of eternal, unconditional election: the kingdom's preparation predates all human works, good or bad. There is no "looking down the corridor of foreseen merit" here. The sheep's blessedness has its deepest root in the sovereign grace of God exercised in eternity past — which means their works, however real and meaningful, can never be the ground of their standing before the King.

"The Least of These": The Church as the Primary Referent

A significant and often overlooked interpretive question in Matthew 25 is the identity of "the least of these my brothers" (v. 40). The episode argues, in line with the dominant Reformed and historical reading, that this phrase refers primarily to fellow believers — members of Christ's body who are suffering, vulnerable, or marginalized within the community of faith. The word "brothers" is not incidental. It places the referent in a specific covenantal and familial relationship with Christ. This does not exclude broader applications of mercy — the hosts acknowledge that the principle may extend centrifugally outward — but the center of the text is the church's care for its own. This reading is consistent with Galatians 6:10 ("do good to all people, especially the household of faith"), with Acts 9 (where persecuting the church is persecuting Christ), and with the overall logic of the passage, in which belonging to the King is the decisive category.

Memorable Quotes

Their works flowed so naturally and unselfconsciously from a renewed heart that they scarcely remembered them, let alone regarded them as currency for salvation. — Jesse Schwamb

Sheep are put on the right side because they are sheep, and goats are put on the left side because they are goats — not because they act like sheep or because they act like goats. Those characteristics flow from what they are. They don't make them what they are. — Tony Arsenal

God provides grace. Now do all that you can do. That's the Christian way to look at things. He has prepared good works in advance for us to walk in. This is not some sort of measurement of whether or not you're in the kingdom. It's a description of what those who are in the kingdom look like and how they behave. — Tony Arsenal

Full Transcript

[00:00:08] Jesse Schwamb: Welcome to episode 499 of the Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse.

[00:01:13] Tony Arsenal: And I'm Tony, and this is the podcast with ears to hear. Hey, brother.

[00:01:18] Jesse Schwamb: Hey, brother. Well, we're back. We're back in Matthew 25, and if you haven't been tracking with us for a little while, we've, we've talked about all the parables hanging out in Matthew 25.

But what we've been talking about recently is this kind of surprise pop quiz, that's redundant, that Jesus kind of gives at the final judgment, and he talks about separating these groups into sheep, into goats, and the sheep aren't shocked that they get into heaven. They're shocked that their quiet, kind of unglamorous kindness apparently got tallied at all.

And because all of these good works apparently are done from a heart already made new, have a way of sneaking past even their own doers' notice. But then there's this other group, the goats, and they learn the hard way that they never really did anything for anybody. And it's not a great look when your deeds are just faith's paper trail.

And so Jesus has a lot to say to us in this, what we're calling, like, parable adjacent kind of message that he gives. Summarizing these three- Yeah ... great teachings, here comes all of this really direct and explicit instruction about, uh, the final judgment, which by the way is impossible for me now to hear or say without thinking of the final countdown.

[00:02:30] Tony Arsenal: The final judgment.

[00:02:32] Jesse Schwamb: I was hope- I was hoping you would sing us into that, and it was beautiful. Yeah. It was fantastic.

I

[00:02:36] Tony Arsenal: try. I

try.

[00:02:37] Jesse Schwamb: So I think on this episode we got a lot to say in our ongoing conversation about this judgment, about these deeds, these works. What are they? What is their purpose, especially for these different groups of sheeps and goats?

What's the deal?

[00:02:52] Affirm Deny Segment

[00:02:52] Jesse Schwamb: So we'll get to all of that in just a second, but first, it's that blessed and glorious time in every Reformed Brotherhood conversation where we either affirm with something that is something that we really like, think is understated, that's really is not getting the attention, people are sleeping on, or conversely, we deny against something that just isn't that cool, just is not that great.

So Tony, are you affirming with something or are you gonna deny against something today?

[00:03:17] Tony Arsenal: I'm affirming with something. I'm not sure how long this has been a thing. I stumbled upon it, uh, a little while ago, and it's been in my affirmations list for a couple weeks. Um, and I'm also not 100% sure that this is available to every Logos Bible user.

So those are the caveats.

[00:03:33] Logos Minutes Reading Plans

[00:03:33] Tony Arsenal: Um, what I stumbled upon is if you create a reading plan now, instead of saying, "I wanna finish this book by this date or in this number of sessions," uh, you can say, "I wanna finish this book by reading X minutes a day," which is great. Um, it's a, it's a feature that I've, I thought, like, why didn't they have this a long time ago?

Because a lot of times you want to sort of set aside a certain amount of time a day. Maybe it's 15, 20 minutes of Bible reading. Maybe it's five minutes of Bible reading. Maybe it's 30 minutes of- Bavinck or Calvin or whatever you're reading. So what you can do now is you tell it the page range or you tell it, "I wanna read the whole book."

Uh, you could do, you know, passages or verse ranges or sections of the Bible. And then where you normally in the next screen where it would ask you, uh, how many days you wanna read, how many sessions, or whether you wanna read until a certain date, there's a new option. And so it just divides that up based on the amount of time.

What's really slick is it will actually break pages in half. Nice. So, like, if you have a short, um, either a short amount of pages that you wanna read, and it's kinda like I wanna read for two or three minutes a day, and two minutes is not a whole page. I run into this when I'm reading Matthew Henry when I'm preparing for sermons, because for whatever reason, uh, maybe it's just the Logos page pagination, but the pages are really long.

Like, a one page of Matthew Henry's commentary will sometimes take, like, 10 or 15 minutes to read, which is obnoxious. Um, I think it's just that the pages are just, like... I don't know, I think it's just long pages. Um, but if you say I wanna read this one page and I wanna read for five minutes a day, it'll actually split the page up, um, into chunks based on the word count and whatnot.

And obviously, that five minutes is, it's not calculating how quickly you read, like, uh, Kindle does sometimes when you're doing that.

[00:05:25] Jesse Schwamb: Right.

[00:05:25] Tony Arsenal: Um, so it's basing that on an average reading speed. So if you're a little faster, uh, of a reader, then it'll be, you know, you'll get done a little quicker, and it might take you a little longer if you're slower.

But it's a really slick feature, and I think it's, like I said, I think most of us If we wanna be diligent to read whatever it is we're reading, whether it's the Bible or other theological works, um, we want to set aside time, and we wanna sorta time block. We've talked a lot about productivity, um, in this podcast.

We wanna, like, time block our time so it's protected and it's, it's set aside for that task or for that purpose, and this is a great way to do it. So you just put it on your calendar. You say, "I've got 15 minutes that's set aside to read the Bible in the morning, and I know that it's gonna be a digestible chunk."

And then it's a, you know, it's no longer a, a date-bound reading plan, so there's no falling behind. If you miss a day, it just means you pick up the next day. Right. So it's a great way to do it. Again, not that there's anything wrong with time-bound reading plans or deadlines, but it's a little bit of a different way to make sure that you're getting into the Word or whatever book you're reading, uh, consistently.

[00:06:30] Jesse Schwamb: That's definitely a feature that I think people are sleeping on in Logos. I have that too, so I don't know if, like you said, it is d- coupled with some kind of particular package or dependent on that.

[00:06:40] Stress Free Reading Habits

[00:06:40] Jesse Schwamb: But generally, I think maybe we haven't spoken enough about, like, just making what- whatever it looks like, stress-free reading plans, because I was also reading some stuff by Ryan Holiday recently, and just the reminder of how there really is a fair amount of time to read, to actually consume, like- Yeah

good written material. And really, it's maybe a little bit more about how, like, we understand walking and the benefits of walking now. You don't need to, like, set aside 20 or 30 minutes to go for a walk. Even going for, like, a quick burst of three to five minutes is so happy and healthful for you. And so I think- Yeah

that in the same way, we actually do have more time to read than we think, and if you wanna, like, consume material and learn more things or just become more meditative in your thoughts spiritually, I think if you create the plan, that's just another thing to, like, help you on the way. But it's gotta be one that's, like, stress-free, like you're saying, and that's what I like about the Logos.

You just set it up, and every time you go back into it, it's kinda asynchronous, and so, like, it just starts you off with wherever you're at. It's never gonna, like, pop up and be like, "You missed a day, and now you owe me 60 pages." Yeah. "Get on the ground and give it to me." Like, it's, it's not gonna be like that.

So I love the joy of having the plan before you, and then that means that when the time comes, you're like, "Oh, I got a couple minutes," you can just go there. It can guide you into that reading, like, easily, succinctly, with low barriers, and make you feel happy and feel, like, that joy of reading again.

[00:08:04] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.

Yeah, I, I think it's great. And, you know, I think sometimes we fall into this trap, and you kind of alluded to it. Like, you fall into this trap that if you don't, uh, if you don't have, like, 20, 30 minutes to sit and read, that it's not worth it. Right. Right. And I know I used to fall into that trap, where I felt like if I didn't sit down and read an entire chapter, that I somehow was not actually, like, getting the material.

But I think most of us have some sort of regular, uh, like, waste time. Uh, and what I mean is, like, for me, I ride the bus home every, like, every day. Most days I ride the bus home, and I know that's about a 25, 30-minute period of time that, um, I can choose to, like, scroll Twitter, and that's fine. Like, it's fine to do that.

I can listen to podcasts. Um, I can do all sorts of stuff. I play video games on my tablet. Um, or I could set aside 15 of those minutes and have a p- sort of a preset reading. And you will be surprised, or maybe you won't. Maybe I'm the only one who's been surprised at this, but I think you'll be surprised uh, to find how quickly you actually move through material, even at- Right

something like five minutes a day. So just for example, Joel Beeke's, uh, Systematic Theology Volume 1 is about 28 hours worth of reading, at least according to Logos. If you set aside 15 minutes per day, you will finish that reading in approximately 114 sessions. So that's not that long. That's not bad.

That's like a third of a year. That's not bad, yeah. So you could, you could read through all of Joel Beeke, which is thousands of pages. I mean, we're talking, we're talking four, four different five or 600 page volumes. Um, and this, this actually is counting, like, the table of contents and the index, so, like, not all of it is what you're gonna read.

You could read through that whole thing in under a year and a half if you just set aside 10 or 15 minutes. Um, and obviously if you have more time, maybe you have a 45 minute, um, bus ride home or, you know, you, you regularly have doctor's appointments and you know you're gonna be in the waiting room two days a week every week or something like that, this is a great way to just make sure you've got something set aside.

Like your dad always says, you always say, like, "Bring a book." Well- That's right ... this is not only bring a book, but it's bring a book with like a s- like a set chunk of that book set aside for that time period. So maybe it's your lunch break, maybe it's the walk in from the bus stop, whatever it is. Um, I think it's, it's pretty straightforward.

And all the old features, like all the old ways of setting up reading plans are still there. They're not eliminating those. Um, and this is just a great way, I think, to get, kind of get your reps in. Like, sometimes you just have to do the work and- Right ... get your reps in.

[00:10:45] Jesse Schwamb: Get it.

[00:10:45] Tony Arsenal: And this is a low pressure, this is a low pressure way to do it.

It's not, um, it's not setting aside specific amounts of, uh, dates or anything like that. So yeah, check it out. It's, it's super easy to access, it's the same way you would always make a reading, um, like a reading goal. Um, and you actually can still set a regular reading schedule even with this feature. You could still say, "I wanna read Monday, Wednesday, Friday."

You could say, "I don't wanna have a schedule at all," which means you just, when you click on it, it just brings you to the next section, but there's never any reminders. So they actually really are, like, expanding the way that, uh, you're able to generate these reading plans. The one thing I wish they had that I'm not sure why they don't, I wish they had a dynamic catch-up feature where, like, if you were...

You know, let's say I wanted to finish this book and I wanted to finish it by, I don't know, the end of the year, and I missed a couple days or I missed a week, I wish there was a way to push a button and have it just redistribute the remaining readings out across- Right ... what's left of the reading plan.

That's not there. That's a... If you're listening, Logos, or someone who works at Logos, that's what we need. I've told you that before. Why haven't you listened to me? But, um, uh, yeah, we need that. But th- this is a good start too, because again, it's, it's not, um- It's not making you do a deadline. Right. So it's much more relaxed paced.

[00:11:59] Jesse Schwamb: Exactly. Exactly. That's one of the things I love about it.

[00:12:03] Burst Reading Benefits

[00:12:03] Jesse Schwamb: Uh, let me make, like, one more plea if you're, like, like you're listening and you're unconvinced about this burst style reading, and that is I've been so convinced that that kind of consumption can be really helpful to processing reading. Because especially if it's like, say you're reading something of the Puritans or something relatively deep, there is something to be said of course for, like, being able to sit down if you have all this time and just kind of read to get the flow.

But what I think even there I struggle with is some things are worth stopping and thinking about, and this forces- Yeah ... some kind of meditation that happens in the background anyway, and I've found that to be so helpful. Like, it kind of just creates a little bit of attentional space by way of making you walk away from the thing that you just read.

And also, if you know that you've only got this short little time span available, I think I'm prone to read kind of in a different way with a little bit more focus.

[00:12:52] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.

[00:12:53] Jesse Schwamb: And then I find myself really thinking about some of those things. And some of the things that you and I talk about, the things that we love to read, are worth stopping and considering.

And so it's too easy to be like, "Well, I just, I need to hit the page number. I gotta get the count in. I wanna get this volume finished." Yeah. And that's great, but at the same time, like presumably, like we read to comprehend, we read to put into practice, we read to, like, help us build wisdom and to process the world and to understand things in a more robust and profound way, and that can really only happen with that kind of spacing.

So this builds in some spacing, so embrace that as I think a feature and not a bug maybe of some good reading.

[00:13:29] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah, it's funny you, you mentioned Ryan Holiday earlier. One of the things I appreciate about his, um, at least most of his books, I've only read the sort of the Stoic Wisdom series, but, um, he keeps his chapters super short.

[00:13:40] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah.

[00:13:40] Tony Arsenal: So, like, part of that is sort of the self-help grocery store format that he's, he's going for. Um, not that it's... It's not empty calories, that's not what I'm saying. I think sometimes that is implied there. But he keeps his chapters short, so it's very easy, like, to just pick up. I'm working through Discipline Is Destiny right now.

It's the one I'm reading now. It's very easy to just pick it up and be like, "I'm gonna read one chapter," and it's, like, five, 10 minutes long. Um, and the chapters are... They're not identical, but they repeat enough themes that, like, y- you don't need to really, like, sit down and really, like, cram through it to get the concept.

Right. But you'll read through and you'll get the concept over and over again. And I actually think the Puritans can... Some of the Puritans can be that same way, where they say the same thing- Right ... slightly differently over and over again. Um, another book that reminds me of that is, um, Knowing Christ by Mark Jones, which we talked, but that's a, it's weird that that's actually kind of an old book now.

Um- Right ... I think it's coming up on close to a decade now since it came out. Um, but those chapters are super short, 10, 15 minutes. So this kind of at a burst reading, session reading, rap reading, whatever you wanna call it, it's actually super productive and it's, it is, you're right, it's very good for meditation because you are taking time to do it.

You're doing it consistently, so it's kind of, it's kind of like hammering itself into your head. Um, but it's not, it's not so much time that it, you get, like, reading fatigue.

[00:15:01] Jesse Schwamb: Right. Right. Exactly. That's a beautiful thing.

[00:15:04] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.

[00:15:05] Jesse Schwamb: I, I agree. Like, it's reading all kinds of ways, but one of the things that Ryan Holiday was recently convicted me of is, like, he talks about how many things he's able to consume.

People are always like, "How are you able to read all those books with all the traveling, all the different things, engagements that you have?" And he's like, "Because I just read all the time. I read when I'm-" Right ... waiting at the post office. I read when I have, like, literally three minutes between doing something or picking up a kid, that, that I read."

And I don't know, I kinda like that idea. I, I... he's not ashamed to be like, "If that's... If I have 30 seconds, I probably just pull up a book," because I think that that's even- Yeah ... valuable space in which to consume good writing. So, and when I r- I, I, like, subscribe to all, maybe like you, like all these different feeds, all these lists.

There are just- Yeah ... so many things I wanna read. My to-read list is so stacked, pun intended, and it's like books of- I know ... all kinds. And then I'm in this space now where I find that as I'm getting older, again, one, like suddenly birds continue to be interesting to me in new ways that I never anticipated, and the second thing is, like, suddenly I wanna read all this history.

And so, like, now there's like this whole, where it never really appealed to me before, now there's like this, all this new, like, vistas opened up, and I'm like, "Who has time for this?" So- Yeah ... maybe the idea is to just, again, consume it in bites. And I'm beginning to really appreciate that as an effective strategy for not, like, re- necessarily reading more, but learning more, and learning it better.

[00:16:26] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. And I actually think it is probably an effective strategy for reading more for most people. I know it has been for me- True ... to just sit down and do, do a few minutes at a time. Um- Just get it ... I've got kids, there's work to do. Like, it's, y- you're not gonna be able to... Most, I think most of our listeners are probably not in a- stage of life anymore where you can really devote hours to study like you maybe you could when you were in your 20s, where you just- Right

you had a job and you didn't have much else responsibility. You, you just, you know, you just had things to do. Uh, it's not like that for most of us anymore. So being able to take five, 10 minutes and, and read a book is probably a luxury, but it's probably a luxury that we could, we could probably structure our lives and make that more of a reality.

Right. And this feature in Logos will help you do that with really any theological book you can practically think you wanna get your hands on that's available on Logos. So Jesse- Right ... we could talk about reading all night every night, and we- ... love to read, but that's not what this podcast is about today.

So why don't you tell us what you're affirming or denying?

[00:17:27] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah.

[00:17:27] Jesse Book Pick Perkins

[00:17:27] Jesse Schwamb: Well, now, now I'm gonna switch it up because I had a book, and so, like, it just seems like people are gonna be like, "Oh, of course," and you just rolled right into that. So the quick affirmation is more Puritan stuff, A Perfect Redeemer by William Perkins.

That's this week's book, so you should do that. I don't know if it's available on Logos. I presume that it is, and you can set up your own reading plan, and it's beautiful and amazing, and Perkins makes a case that true satisfaction isn't found in things, but in Christ. He tears down all these illusions of self-sufficiency and points us to rest fully in God's grace.

It's beautiful. It's glorious. It's practical. It's like 27, to your point, Tony, 27, I think, like, really brief chapters. Perfect for the bus. Like, it's prime bus reading.

[00:18:05] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.

[00:18:06] Jesse Schwamb: So yeah, that's affirmation. Okay.

[00:18:07] Denial Dying Guitar Batteries

[00:18:07] Jesse Schwamb: Here's a denial, 'cause I've rarely do denials, but as you were speaking I was reminded of one that came up this morning that maybe is only going to really resonate with a small group, but I think if you know, you know.

I was actually, this denial was constructed out of a conversation I had with a dear brother this morning, who I think was sharing the denial with me, uh, but might have been suspicious entirely of what I was going after. But it's this. A lot of, I'm trying to think how to set this up properly so it's, like, explained to a wider audience.

So a lot of guitar instruments, that's a weird way to say this, but, like, I'm talking about guitars that have to be plugged in, have some kind of, like, onboard electronics. But principally, like, electric instruments. I'm talking about, like, electric bass, electric guitar. They usually have what's called, like, a preamp in them, which means that the signal is essentially being set up before it goes to the board, and that process requires some power.

And so generally those instruments have, like, a little, you know, battery that goes in them, uh, uh, different kinds. Here's my denial. I don't know why so many of these instruments, including the- most of the ones that I own, have no nothing, no indicator to tell you how close that battery is to dying. And so what happens is- Yeah

you, I think every musician, everybody who plays an instrument of, of this nature has had this happen to them, where they need to play it in a critical environment, and then the battery dies. And why I'm denying this is because this came up for me yesterday, where I was, had the benefit of playing at a church event, but it was with my acoustic electric guitar.

It, it's a Martin D-16. It's a beautiful guitar. But even the Martin, it doesn't have an indicator on it. And so, like, I always swap out the battery, which I think is probably pretty wasteful, because I knew I had to leave this guitar plugged in on stage for, like, almost two and a half hours before it was gonna be used, and whenever it's plugged in, it's drawing the power.

And so, so many times you get halfway through, you're playing, you're in a worship set or you're making music with people, and it just goes out on you, and when it goes out, there's no way to get the sound back except for, at least in my instrument, you have to unplug it, you have to pop out the battery, you have to put it back in.

There's no, nothing discreet about this. There's nothing convenient about this. And there's certainly nothing- ... like, noiseless about that, especially if the person running sound is not being- Doesn't know ... very, like, adept with how they're handling the instrument so that you don't, like, blow people's ears out as you try to replace the battery.

So I'm just wondering about this. Like, come on, instrument manufacturers. I know it's probably not pretty to put this somewhere, but you could put it somewhere discreet. Here's what I just wanna say, though, finally. Um, please don't at me. I know that there are some, especially like acoustic electric guitars, Fender's a good example, like onboard Fishman pickups that have, like, the EQ box.

Some of them do have this indicator, but not enough. And if it's, like, an electric guitar- Yeah ... I rarely see this on a pure electric guitar. So please, for the love, just put, like, a little light. Maybe, maybe it turns orange or yellow or red when, like, the battery's about to go. I just, I need to know, because it's, it's so nerve-wracking when you're playing and you're like, "Oh, no.

When did I last change this battery? How much longer is this thing going to last?"

[00:21:28] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. You know, I'm, I'm wondering, um, maybe I don't know enough about electrical engineering, but I actually feel like being able to determine when a random battery is starting to lose charge is probably a fairly intricate process, so that might be why, like, there's not as many.

It's funny, my Ibanez guitar, which I haven't, I haven't even taken out of its case in years, I just don't, don't have a, a, a real occasion for it anymore, um, it has an indicator on it. So it's funny that you say that 'cause, like-

[00:21:59] Jesse Schwamb: Some do

[00:22:00] Tony Arsenal: Not a cheap guitar, but it's, um- Right ... it's not, yeah, it's not like a super expensive guitar.

Uh, and it does have a little indicator. It's just like a little blinking light when the battery- Yes ... starts to go, it just blinks. Um, but yeah, even then, it still... It's funny, I, um, when I was in like high school and, and first couple years of college, I helped out with youth ministry at my church quite a bit, and I would often be on the team that would go, like, down to the camp the day before to set up all the equipment and to, like, get everything ready.

And I remember I was always, I was always being told like, "Make sure you change the batteries. Make sure you change the batteries." Right. And like- Right ... it was always my job first thing in the morning to go around to all the microphones and all the guitars and, like, change out all the batteries. And I remember thinking, "This is so wasteful."

Right. But then I remember, like, the one time we didn't do it, and it, like, crashed in the middle of, like, the big... And again, like, I don't even know if I would support this model of camp ministry anymore, but it crashed in the middle of, like, the big worship set on, like, the, like, the emotional decision- Yeah

for Jesus night. Your altar call- It crashed in the middle of it ... totally blown

[00:23:01] Jesse Schwamb: up.

[00:23:01] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, and it, it, and it did. Like, it affected everything. We had to, like, stop and... So yeah, always, always change your batteries. Um, you know, like, I, you, I, when I was doing musical worship on a regular basis, I just had a couple, like, inexpensive rechargeable batteries that I would swap out at the beginning of each session.

I would put the battery that was in my guitar into the charger and the battery that was in the charger into my guitar. Um, and those, those wear out over time too, so that- Right ... you know, that, that's not a healthy charging habit for those batteries, and you go through them faster. But it's better than throwing away a nine-volt battery every couple of, you know, couple of days, so.

[00:23:37] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah.

[00:23:37] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. That's annoying. It's, it's obnoxious when that happens. Um,

[00:23:40] Jesse Schwamb: that's, that's why I'm just straight denying against it. I suspect that this is a matter of aesthetics, and that many of these manufacturers don't wanna put something as ugly as a light somewhere on this beautiful instrument, even if it's in, like, a discreet place.

That's my guess. Yeah,

[00:23:53] Tony Arsenal: maybe.

[00:23:54] Jesse Schwamb: I also theorize, like, why can't there be an intermediary pedal that would help us with this? So, like, many people, including myself, have a tuning pedal which you can essentially bypass, and you, you engage it when you wanna tune. Why can't that draw... I, I think it should be relatively straightforward, but who knows?

But either way, all I need is just a heads-up. I don't need like a, "You have, you know, 16% left," or, "You have 2.67 hours left." I just need to know that it's not gonna fail me at this most critical time. Like, just tell me to swap it. That's all, that's all, that's all you have to say. Yeah. Just tell me to swap it.

So I'm sure it's more complicated than this, but I think it might be a matter of, of beauty over function and purpose- Maybe ... because-

[00:24:33] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.

[00:24:34] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, that's probably- Many, many are particular about that kind of thing Yeah. So anyway- Yeah ... yeah, I, that's maybe... I like what you said, Tony. It's maybe a good PSA. Like, change your batteries often and frequently.

Don't be like me. Don't be in that position where all of a sudden, I remember I was leading some very acoustic worship on an evening service. It was a very full congregation, probably, like, 200 people. And, uh, we finished up, and somebody had to yell out, uh, "We can't hear your guitar at all." And I'm just up there playing.

[00:25:01] Tony Arsenal: Ugh.

[00:25:01] Jesse Schwamb: And yeah. You know, it's distracting. It's one of those things. But-

[00:25:04] Tony Arsenal: Yeah ...

[00:25:05] Jesse Schwamb: um, in the end... Uh, ironically, some people at the end of that were like, "Well, that was really great. It was much better than usual. We heard a lot less guitar." And I was like- ... "Okay."

[00:25:14] Tony Arsenal: My, um, my Ibanez, I never used it, but my Ibanez has an XLR cable in addition to the quarter-inch- Oh

and the XLR provides power to the preamp. So that's- See, there you go ... the real solution is just to have a direct XLR, uh, XLR mic cable that goes in, uh, and then you bypass the direct box. Although then you can't, then you can't go into a tuner or pedal. Yes. So-

[00:25:33] Jesse Schwamb: Exactly ...

[00:25:34] Tony Arsenal: pros and cons. Yeah. But-

[00:25:35] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. It go- it, it, it's all over the place.

But let, let's talk about- Yes ... judgment, shall we? Like, what, what-

[00:25:41] Tony Arsenal: Welcome, welcome to the Reformed Guitar Cast for the

[00:25:43] Jesse Schwamb: night. Yes. E- exactly. We could talk all day about books, reading, reading plans, study plans, productivity, and guitars. These are all beautiful things. And

[00:25:51] Tony Arsenal: batteries and

[00:25:52] Jesse Schwamb: electrics. And batteries.

Of which, uh, allegedly you can ha- never have enough of any of those things in that group.

[00:25:57] Tony Arsenal: It's true.

[00:25:58] Back To Matthew 25 Reading

[00:25:58] Jesse Schwamb: But let's talk about, uh, judgment. And I suppose we should go back to Matthew 25, which we've been hanging out in quite a bit. And someday we'll move out of this passage. Pro- probably not today, but someday-

we will actually get beyond it. And I, I know, I know we're 25 minutes in, but I am gonna read again for all of us because Tony and I, you have been resolute in saying that the best parts of our conversations really are the scripture, hearing them and going through them with great depth and a deliberate kind of measured slowness, which we're unapologetic for.

And so let's just go to Matthew 25. I'm gonna read verses 31 through 46 with a f- a fair amount of speed, but enough to get us to the place where again, I just want this to be familiar as we speak about it. "But when the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.

And all the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate them one from another as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And he will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom which has been prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

For I was hungry, and you gave me something to eat. I was thirsty, and you gave me something to drink. I was a stranger, and you invited me in, naked, and you clothed me. I was sick, and you visited me. I was in prison, and you came to me.' Then the righteous will answer him saying, "Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink?

And when did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or naked and clothe you? And when did we see you sick or in prison and come to you?" And the King will answer and say to them, "Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brethren of mine, even the least of them, you did it to me."

Then he will also say to those on his left, "Depart from me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat. I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink. I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me."

Then they themselves also will answer saying, "Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison and did not take care of you?" Then he will answer them saying, "Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these, least of these, you did not do it to me."

And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous unto eternal life

[00:28:27] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.

[00:28:29] Heavy Passage Rightly Used

[00:28:29] Tony Arsenal: Like we said last week, this is a really kinda heavy passage. Um, and it can be, uh... Let me put it this way. It can be used to make, uh, believers fearful in the wrong way. I, I do think the, the passage is to instill fear of God and is inst- to drive us to good works.

But it can be used in a way to sort of, as I mentioned last week, it can be used in a way to sort of say, "If you don't do all these good things and you don't measure up, then Jesus never knew you." Um, and, and it implies, or sometimes even fully says that, uh, Jesus comes to know us because of the good works that we do.

Right. Right? And that's just not, um, that's just not Christian theology. That's not Reformed theology certainly. Um, it's, it's not Protestant theology, and it's not even really Roman Catholic theology down. Um, but this passage really is more about understanding what marks the life of a person who has already come to faith in Christ.

That's right.

[00:29:30] Justification Not Two Stage

[00:29:37] Tony Arsenal: What marks the life of someone who has been changed and transformed, uh, to be like their master, like their king. Um, so, so this passage doesn't try to teach us what we have to do to merit eternal life. Um, this isn't... A- and maybe we'll get into some of this, I don't know if we will or not, but this isn't sort of John Piper future justification, um, you know, on the basis of works, or future sa- salvation on the basis of works.

Um, there's no two stages to justification, right? If we're justified, it's because Christ has imputed his righteousness to us. That's right. And what happens in the, in the final judgment, there's a real thing that happens, but it's not an assessment of whether or not we have done enough or been enough.

It's the reassertion of the righteousness of Christ over us. So we'll, we'll get into that, we'll talk about it, but I wanted to make sure we set the frame for that, um, before we get into it. 'Cause sometimes when you talk about these passages, it's hard to talk about future judgment according to works, which is a genuine Christian reality, right?

There's a future judgment according to works. But it's hard to talk about that without starting to sound a little bit like we're, we're earning our salvation or, like, our, our justification's in, like, sort of a second stage of review or something like that. So we'll, we'll get into that, but this is not, this is not works righteousness, this is not future justification, this is two stages of justification.

[00:30:52] Jesse Schwamb: And that seems, like, very clear from the way that Jesus sets this whole up. The language is so beautifully gospelly centered and oriented.

[00:31:00] Inheritance Not Wages

[00:31:00] Jesse Schwamb: Even behind the judgment, like, this curtain of judgment, when you, when you open it up, is the gospel in all of its fullness, and that begins with th- this idea of inheriting the kingdom.

And inheritance, of course, is not wages. In fact, like, Paul makes this kind of, like, identical move in Romans 8 and in Galatians 4 where he basically emphasizes what Jesus is talking about here. That is, sons and daughters inherit, inherit. They don't earn a paycheck. An heir receives by virtue of relationship and not performance.

And that single word is, I think in the judgment of, like, most of the Reformed understanding here, decisive for, like, reading this whole passage correctly. That whatever role these works mention in verses 35 and 36 play, they cannot be meritorious works. It's not the ground of the inheritance, because inheritances by definition are not earned.

Yeah.

[00:31:51] Election Before Works

[00:31:51] Jesse Schwamb: And then, like, right into the same kind of train of thought, the same line of reasoning, is this idea that, well, not only are you inheriting the kingdom, but all this was prepared for you before the foundation of the world. And here again is, like, the beautiful gospel in the form of this un- you know, eternal, like, unconditional election stated, like, very plainly.

Now the kingdom isn't pr- w- was not prepared in response to, like, some kind of foreseen works. I think we talked about that last week, right? Did we talk about the cor- looking down the corridor, all that kind of weird stuff? Yeah.

[00:32:22] Tony Arsenal: Yep.

[00:32:23] Jesse Schwamb: It was prepared in eternity past before any works, like good or bad, had been performed by anyone.

And so that's, like, the true answer, in my opinion, to, like, any Pelagian or semi-Pelagian reading of this passage. The deepest cause of the sheep's blessedness long predates their deeds of mercy, and so their works are downstream of election and grace, not upstream of it. That's really good news. Like, that again is the Gospel, that all things are entrusted to, belong to God.

God does all the verbs. However you want to say it, what we have here is true grace, and that their works are flowing out of that grace. And so because of that, there's no... It's, like, it would be insanity to boast in them, because that boasting would mean absolutely nothing. And so Jesus sidesteps that altogether by talking about inheriting the kingdom and having this all prepared for us before the foundation of the world.

[00:33:15] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.

[00:33:15] Kingdom Language Clues

[00:33:15] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, and there's some interesting, um, I think some interesting text feature that I just noticed here that, um, I don't wanna read too much into it, but one of the things that's striking about this is the, the language around the sheep or around those on the, um, on the right of the king here. Um, there's much more of a communal, um, kingdom-type language, right?

Uh, in the first section where it's talking about those on the right, uh, the word king is used repeatedly.

[00:33:45] Jesse Schwamb: Right.

[00:33:45] Tony Arsenal: Right? And then when you get to the second section on those on the left, the ones that the, the, the righteous son of man does not know, um, it doesn't use the word king. And that's not, of course, not to say that he's not the king of those who are, you know, condemned.

He's the king of all. But there is this, this, uh, obviously intentional, uh, choice to use the word king, and what, what is a king if not someone who has a kingdom and a people? Exactly. So there, there even baked into that simple linguistic feature is already this idea that the people he's speaking to are his people.

And so, like I said, we've talked about parables and parable-adjacent teaching as kind of being sort of systematic language in story form, systematic theology in story form. Even here, we're seeing election, we're seeing definite atonement, right? The people are his people because he prepared this kingdom for them before the foundation of the world.

[00:34:42] Jesse Schwamb: Right.

[00:34:42] Tony Arsenal: Um, and then the, the people who aren't his, they don't even get to be associated with him as king. They don't even beg- get to, get to be associated with his kingdom. They're so far outside of the kingdom of heaven, outside of this kingdom, that even to say that the king is speaking to them is almost like, uh, it's almost like a contradiction, right?

So, um- In sort of like common parlance, we might refer to another nation's king as King Charles or, you know, K- King whatever, um, or President so-and-so. But that person is not my king. Right. And so although, like, maybe there's some decorum just in general, and, like, politically it's wise, I'd have no obligation to call King Charles King Charles.

Like, I can ... I ... He's not my king. I don't owe any obligation of, of fidelity to him or to his title or to his crown. Another funny example, um, recently, um, you know, I work, uh, at a hospital. We have a spiritual health or chaplaincy department, and there's some Catholic priests who are on staff there. And, um, the, the spiritual health department is part of the care experience group, which is the same group that my patient relations team is part of.

And some- someone noticed that at, like, broader team group meetings, I don't refer to them as Father. I'm one of the only people in the room who just says Joakim or, you know, or Sam. Like, I don't ... And they don't mind. It doesn't bother them at all.

[00:36:03] Jesse Schwamb: Right.

[00:36:04] Tony Arsenal: Um, and it's funny because someone asked me that, and I'm like, "Well, they're not my priest, and I, like, I don't acknowledge- Right

their status as the Father. Like, there's actually some biblical reasons why I wouldn't do that." I think this is kind of sort of almost like, in a third person perspective, kind of the same thing. Like, the k- king, i- the, the Gospel writer here, Matt, is refusing to use the word king in relation to this Son of Man in relation to these people to say something about them, to say something about those people- Yes

who are outside of the kingdom

[00:36:34] Jesse Schwamb: Yes, that's right on. It's a bit like, I suppose, in a, a lesser way, like there was a time... So you're married to my sister. There was a time where you weren't, we weren't Yeah ... uh, and during that time, like I, I was not in your family, nor were you in mine.

[00:36:48] Tony Arsenal: Right.

[00:36:48] Jesse Schwamb: And then at, when you married her, I am part of your family.

Like you can't kick me out. As long as you're married to Ashley, I will be part of your family and you part of mine. Right. That's how it works. And so that identity proceeds, like it c- this is like confusion between identity sometimes and I think like harmony, and so many people wanna read this as like some kind of like harmonic reflection of the state of obedience of these persons, and therefore, if they had harmony, then they were in the kingdom, and that's getting it backwards.

That they were part of God's kingdom by his family by definition of identity.

[00:37:20] Surprised Righteous Hearts

[00:37:20] Jesse Schwamb: So that by the time like we get to verse 37 when Jesus is saying the, the righteous are gonna answer him and they're gonna say, "Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink?" I think that's one of the most like theologically important verses in this passage, which proves the point you just made.

And I think it's often under-read because the righteous, they don't remember doing any of these things for Christ. They are surprised. They have like no self-conscious ledger of merit that they can point to, and that surprise I think is devastating to works righteousness reading of the passage because- Yes

if these people were consciously stacking up merit to present at the judgment, then they would've kept a very careful account. But instead, their works flowed so naturally and unselfconsciously from a renewed heart that they scarcely remembered them, let alone like regarded them as currency for salvation.

And so I think, I know there's been a lot written, you and I have talked about a lot about how people wanna parse this idea of works, understanding that it has some place, but what is that proper place? This I think does lead us into like the right focus in that kind of discussion because it's precisely what like the Reformed doctrine of sanctification would predict, and that is, you know, truly gracious affections I think issue in Christian practice as a reliable sign, hear me out here, but crucially that practice is not calculated or like self-res- referential.

It's like the spontaneous fruit of transformed nature, as natural it is for a good tree to bring forth good fruit. And so the righteous in this passage, they're not the legalists that some would, I think, portray them to be or get worried that they are. They're not tallying good deeds. They're simply people who, having been made new, and who makes them new?

God in Christ, right, through the power of the Holy Spirit. Because they've been made new, they just could not help but love their neighbor.

[00:39:13] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.

[00:39:13] Sheep And Goats Identity

[00:39:13] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, and, and you know, I think it's sometimes hard... We, we made the point last week that, um, the, the language in verse 32 where it says, uh, "He," He being the Son of Man, "He will separate one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats," that, that comparative as is the same language that introduces other parables.

Right. And so the, the parable, parabolic element of this is a comparison to a shepherd separating two different kinds of animals in his, his bigger flock. Mm-hmm. I made the point that like we should be careful to overread sort of like what sheep are like into the behavior of those who are righteous on the right of Christ here.

Um, because sheep are dumb, sheep do stupid things, sheep are disobedient. There, there's no use for like sheep to do good things and goats are not. And productive goats are also productive. Um, so what we should see though is that sheep are put on the right side because they are sheep, and goats are put on the, the left side because they are goats.

Um, not because they act like sheep or because they act like goats, right? And so I think, yes, goats and sheep may have thinked behavioral, recognizable behavioral characteristics, but those characteristics flow from what they are. They don't make them what they are.

[00:40:35] Jesse Schwamb: That's right.

[00:40:35] Tony Arsenal: And so I think that's kind of what we see here in the parable, is the people on the, the right, the righteous on the right hand of the, the Son here, of the King as He sits on His glorious throne, the righteous simply do what righteous people do, right?

They, they don't ... So much so, and again I think the shock of this is, is sort of the, the path of the teaching. The shock of this, the surprise of this on the part of the righteous are, uh, like it's palpable. And I think that when you actually talk to someone who is ... Think of the most sanctified, holy, righteous Christian you know, right?

And I'm not gonna try to tell you who that is, but think of that person and think of a time that you have paid them a compliment or thanked them for doing the right thing.

[00:41:24] Jesse Schwamb: Right.

[00:41:24] Tony Arsenal: They're like, "Oh, I didn't even think about that." Like, it's just not even on, not even on their radar. How many times have you, um, have you done a kind thing for someone at work and they like make a big deal out of it and you're like, "Oh, this is just

I thought this is just what we do to each other. I thought we were just kind to each other." Um, and, and f- the flip side of this too is the, uh, the righteous in this parable or in this teaching, they're actually sort of like questioning the Lord's judgment in that they're saying like, "Wait a second, like w- why am I on the right here?"

And He's like, "Well, uh, you were h- I was hungry and you fed me, and I, you know, I was thirsty and you gave me drink." And they're like, "When did we do that?" The flip side- Right ... of that is that those on the left, they're trying to justify themselves, right? They're trying to justify themselves, 'cause He's like, "Well, you didn't do these things.

You're not my people." And they're like, "Well, when did we see you? When did we see you, when did you have these things happen and we didn't take care of it?" So the, the righteous are like surprised that this happened, and are almost questioning the fact that it's true, and the unrighteous are trying to justify themselves, basically blaming God.

Bad judgment. It's not altogether, um... I forget which pro- I wanna say Micah or Malachi, one of those two, um, um, where the, the, um, God basically says, like, "Y- you, you're sinful people." And they're like, "When? When were we sinful people? Like, you tell me." Yeah. And then of course he does, 'cause it's the prophets.

Right. But it's the same kind of thing. He comes to the, to the unrighteous in judgment. He says, "Depart from me, y- you cursed people." And then he says, "These are the, these are the things that have marked your life." And then they're like, "Where, when did that mark my life? Like, what are you talking about?" And he, he, the funny part is he doesn't give them an answer.

He doesn't explain to them really. Right. He, he just like, "No, you can go, you can go away from me 'cause you." He does say like, "Well, you never, you did not do this to the least of these," and we, we need to unpack that phrase a little bit. But he doesn't give a long explanation to them justifying his judgment.

He just makes the statement, basically makes the statement again, "You just didn't do it, so that's the consequence of eternal punishment." Um, again, not in like, "You didn't feed the poor, therefore you're going to hell" kind of a statement. It's more like, "You are not the kind of person that is a, a part of my kingdom."

[00:43:48] Jesse Schwamb: Right.

[00:43:49] Tony Arsenal: Without necessarily a firm statement about w- how that came to be, just a statement, "You are not the kind of person that is part of my kingdom." That's

[00:43:56] Jesse Schwamb: right. That's right. I think that's actually very evident in these, like, six concrete works of mercy which are listed, feeding, giving drink, hospitality to strangers, clothing, visiting the sick, uh, visiting the imprisoned.

And as we've said before, those are not extraordinary feats. I mean, there's no mention- Right ... of miracles or doctrinal precision or heroic martyrdom. Yeah. It's just these ordinary, super unglamorous ministry of practical love, and I think that is significant, like you're saying, because it is a mark of true faith, this idea that it's found frequently not in spectacular religious performance, which is what some of the audience is probably after, honestly, but in this quiet but costly unnoticed compassion.

And I think that is critical to understanding that those who have been identified and marked by Christ undertake these things with a seriousness, under being willing to bear the c- the cross and the curses and the cost of all those things, uh, because it is born out of a transformed life, one that has been re-identified almost as it were a new creation.

And so that- Yeah ... created man does these things without putting the notches on the belts, so to speak, to tally them up because I think to that person that would be insane. What is the purpose of doing that? If I can't earn my salvation, I'm doing these things anyway. It, it wouldn't even matter. It's like trying to pay a bill that you have no money for anyway.

Why would you then try to count the dollars that you have in your pocket to see if for some reason you could cover the cost? It's impossible. Yeah. And so everything changes to such a degree that I know we keep saying, like, surprised, and that is what is kind of manifested in the passage. But it's, it's not kind of like the shock of like, "I don't know what you're talking about."

It's more, it's more this idea of, again, I think those being brought forward at the final judgment, and it's almost as if Jesus is saying, "You are coming into this kingdom- Because, or you are being, uh, allowed, so to speak, to come into my presence in the fullness because you did all those things. And their surprise is almost as to say, "Well, why would those things bring me into the fullness if I've, in fact, have inherited it because you've called me your own?"

Does that make sense? Like, I think it's- Yeah ... there's a little bit gone there- Yeah ... that's not just they're kind of like, "Oh, this slipped my mind," or, uh, "It came so easy to me that I didn't even know I was doing it." I think it was more about the g- we should just get to the least of these then, right? Like, what does it mean- Yeah

that they did these to the least of these, and how does that surprise fit into that?

[00:46:19] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.

[00:46:20] Least Of These Explained

[00:46:20] Tony Arsenal: The other element of this that I think is super important for us to cover in the 10 minutes or so we have left. Um, this phrase, "the least of these," right? Yes. And, and this, this can really cause this passage to be misunderstood

Um, I wanna s- loud and clear, uh, taking care of the poor in our society, you know, mercy ministries outside of the church, those things are all good, and I think scripture makes an argument that we should be engaged in those, both individually and also that the church has an obligation to, um, to meet some practical needs of those who are destitute around it.

Um, but that's not what this passage is saying, right? Right. So when we look at the phrase "the least" first, first thing that, that comes off here, right, in verse 40 where this phrase first appears, "Truly I say to you, as you did it to the least of these, my brothers, you did it to me." Right? This is not a general statement.

The least of these are not, like, the lowest and meekest and poorest of the world. The least of these my brothers referring to those who belong to Christ. Right. Those who are related to me. And, and I actually think that that, that is probably, like, the hallmark of passage. Beyond, um, what we've talked about already of just sort of like not being about works righteousness, this is really about being a part of the church, right?

They're marked by the fact that they have inherited this kingdom which was prepared for them before the foundation of the world. They're marked by the fact that, uh, they are the people of this king, so much so that the other people aren't e- the word king can't even appear in association with these other people.

And this last part, they're marked by the way they have treated those in whom they are with c- in, in community with, right? They're marked by the way they have treated those who are related to the king by blood, who are adopted, who are married to the king, who are in, in the family of the king, his brothers.

[00:48:17] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. Okay.

[00:48:18] Tony Arsenal: So this is painting a picture of kind of what we see, right? W- we see in, uh, Galatians, right? Um, "Do, do good to all people, especially the household of faith." Mm-hmm. Right? Uh, our own tagline, "Honor everyone. Love the brotherhood," right? That's, that's a statement of like, yes, you're supposed to be kind to all people, but you're especially supposed to be kind and be committed to and taking care of those who are in the household of faith, who are in the church.

That is what this passage is about. That is what marks those people who belong to the king. The sheep are part of the sh- part of the sheep because they're in that same flock, because they- Right ... are ontologically, they've been made new and they've been renewed into this new creation as sheep. Um, that's what this passage is getting at.

And then the people who, uh, who are not a part of that, they, they have not done anything with the church. They're not associated with the church. They didn't take care of the church. They didn't, they didn't feed the church. They didn't do anything with that. And this, this again, like, think about, like, Acts chapter, you know, when, when, um, when Paul is, when Saul is called by Christ, right?

"When did I persecute you?" "Well, you, why are you persecuting me, Saul? Well, you persecuted my people." So this, this passage ties a lot of those same s- same threads together- Yeah ... in a way that I think presents this really cohesive picture of what it is that's going on. This is not works righteousness. Right.

[00:49:37] Serving Christ In Church

[00:49:37] Tony Arsenal: This is an assessment of the fact that you are, in fact, a m- a member of the people of God, that you have been engrafted into Christ and have become a part of his body. And just as he is our head, we are his body. The people who are cast out, the reason he never knew them is 'cause they've never been engrafted into him.

[00:49:55] Jesse Schwamb: Right. Sometimes this does, I think, get read and defined as, like, the all the poor and suffering writ large, which is helpful, but I don't think, like, the dominant view here, at least in my perspective. And you, and you tell me otherwise. Yeah. Because, uh, on this view, of course, like, Christ does identify with all who suffer, and that maybe mercy to any sufferer is mercy to him.

I think that could be partly correct, part reflection and application here. However, the stronger view, I think, e- like, even historically, is that- Really we're talking about, especially when we get to, like, visiting those in prison, the, the persecuted or itinerant Christian missionary. When we're talking about the imprisonment and persecution language is, that especially suits believers suffering for the gospel's sake, not merely the poor in general.

Now, is, are there ways for us as Christians to embody the gospel and to be a witness for Christ by going out and performing acts of social justice? I would say yes, if you connect those items explicitly to the gospel. That is, that you make it clear your emphasis, genesis, your volition comes through this message of who Christ is.

Otherwise, there's plenty of institutions doing very good things, and I don't necessarily, what's in view here is just that. It's more of, like, the synthesis like you're saying, this idea that we're talking about brothers and sisters, and so it's specifically fellow believers. The principle that Christ identifies with the suffering members of his body, it has, like, a legitimate and broader pastoral application to mercy toward all in need, even if I think, like, the text precise referent is more narrow here.

And that is what I believe, that you're right. It's a bit like I always get a little fired up when people quote from Peter and they're like, you know, "Behold, I stand at the door and knock." And they use this as this idea of like, "Well, see? Jesus is just, he's out there, he's knocking." Somebody's gotta- Yeah

knock harder, but, you know, i- he's knocking on everybody's door, and the unbeliever has to... There's, there's no... You know, like that old image, like there's no doorknob on the outside. He can't come in and open the door. Yeah. And you wanna say, it's Peter writing to the church. Yeah. That's who Christ's addressing there.

So, like, I think even here we gotta get it straight. Like, who God is after here is he's talking about those, like you said, whom he's restored and redeemed, whom he's signed, sealed, and delivered. And so what he's saying here is, you really need to be about caring for those who are part of the body, especially those in need who are suffering, but all of those who are the least of these, that is, the least in the representation of me as part of the body of Christ.

And we all from time to time are part of that group if we're in the body of Christ, and so we desperately need each other. And this is where I think it also starts to make sense how when if we're abiding in Christ, and therefore we are loving him and loving others as ourselves, then we might find it to be a little nonsensical then to stack up all of those things because that's what family does.

And so, like how many times... It would be i- it's like it would be odd to be... I, I mean, maybe people do this, but it's certainly not to their benefit or, or real credit. When if you were to just go around your house and start putting everybody on blast saying, "Well, I do this, and I take out the trash, and, um, you're my child, and I give you a bath every night."

And you'd be like, no, that, that's exactly what you are intended to do. In fact, when you forsake those responsibilities, it's not as if like you take a little earnings off your, your credits there. What you do is you forsake your very identity. And so here I think what we find coming together is this idea that the least of these definitely represents those in need predominantly in the body of Christ.

Could that extend kind of in a centrifugal force kind of way outside of that? Yes, but it's not the center of this, and I think we have to be careful not to get that twisted up.

[00:53:38] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah, the other, and this is the last little, uh, linguistic quirk that I'll comment on, um, that I think also helps to sort of like frame what's going on here.

Um, like I said earlier, the, the righteous are sort of like, uh ... The, the righteous king tells them what he, what they did, right? He says, "Well, I was a stranger. You welcomed me. I was naked. You clothed me." Right. And they say, "Well, when did we do these things, Lord?" The, the, the wicked use a different phrase in here that I think is really interesting, and I think also, um, should key us into something, right?

Every word is inspired and profitable, and while I think you can go a little bit too far sometimes building like entire doctrines off of one word or one verb tense, there are, there's a reality that sometimes a particular word is used to signal something. And it says here, verse 44, "Then they will also answer saying, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick, in prison, and did not minister to you?'"

That's the ESV. That word minister is diakono, right, which is where we get the word deacon. W- the word w- might be easier to translate here as when did we see these things? When did we see you doing these things or lacking these things and not serve you?

[00:54:52] Jesse Schwamb: Right.

[00:54:53] Tony Arsenal: And the answer he gives basically is like, "You've never served me."

Like- Right. Right ... that, that's the final, the final statement here is like, "You've, you've never served me." It, it's not a- as s- you know, simple as like, "Depart from me. I never knew you." It's, it's also like, "Depart from me. You never served me. You ne- you were never my people. You never, you don't inherit this kingdom.

You never were and never will be inheritors of this kingdom." Um, and, and it's almost like in that very phrase, again, like there's a element of attempting to self-justify. You're like, "Well, when didn't we serve you? When didn't we serve you, Lord?" Right. And he's like, "Well, never.

[00:55:29] Assurance Not Merit Scale

[00:55:29] Tony Arsenal: You never served me." And I think that's where we can really, um, where we can really start to draw some assurance from this passage here is, um- If this was a works righteousness...

This is where I get, um, I think works righteousness is just intrinsically incoherent, right? When we're talking about a merit scale, it's not typically the case that merit has a firm binary distinction, right? Um, you, you can't earn partial heaven. You can't earn- Right ... partial hell. Like, either you're, you know, in a works righteousness situation.

But we would expect to be able to, right? This is why, like, the doctrine of purgatory, uh, is intuitive in a works righteousness scenario, because if your, if your suitableness for heaven is based on your work and your merit and your sanctification, then it makes sense that for people who have done enough to get out of hell, that they maybe haven't done enough to get into heaven, and so they need to fi- Right

they need to finish that process somewhere. That's where purgatory comes from. But apart from that, like again, like that's a consistent, that's a consistent position if you believe in some form of works righteousness. Apart from that, though, like merit is merit, and if I've earned, if I've done some, then I should be rewarded for some.

Like, those people who wanna say, like, "Well, you know, the Bible says that the Lord will reward us according to our works," well- Those same people would deny, at least on some level, would deny something like total depravity, um, on some level. And so yeah, like everybody does some good things, everybody does some bad things.

No one is as evil as they could be, right? Right. So the people who are not, uh, 100% evil, who are totally wicked, they've got some level of good works to show for themselves. So where's the reward for that? Well, the answer here, the reason that this can give us, um, some assurance is that it's not based on a level of merit, right?

We don't have to look at it and go, "Have I fed the poor enough? Have I visited the sick enough?" That's right. "I've never visited someone in prison. I must really be in trouble," right? I, have I, have I given thirsty people enough water? I don't have to ask those questions. I have to ask if I'm the kind of person who takes care of my brothers and sisters in Christ.

Do I do... A- and not perfectly, but am I marked, am I marked and known for someone who cares for the Body of Christ, who cares for those, who honors everyone, but especially loves the brotherhood? Am I marked by some- as someone who does good to all people, and especially the household of faith? Um, I, I, I, I wanna be careful how I say this, 'cause I don't wanna be pompous and arrogant, but as a Christian, yes, I have been marked by that.

That is, that is my identity, and I, I strive for that. Um, but I don't have to hit some arbitrary and undefined, like, goalpost to be able to say I've cleared the threshold and I've done enough. That's, like we said last week- Right ... that's the Mormon perspective, right? Yes. God provides grace after you've done all that you can do.

Well, no, God just provides grace. Like, that's- Amen ... God provides grace. Now do all that you can do.

[00:58:32] Jesse Schwamb: Yes.

[00:58:33] Tony Arsenal: That's, that's the Christian, uh, way to look at things. God provides grace. He's prepared a kingdom for us in advance. Therefore, go and take care of the poor, take care of the other Christians, take care of the brothers in Christ, right?

He has prepared good works in advance for us to walk in. That's Ephesians 2. Right. This is, this is not some sort of measurement of whether or not you're in the kingdom. It's a description of what those who are in the kingdom look like and how they behave.

[00:59:01] Jesse Schwamb: That's right.

[00:59:02] Ordinary Mercy In Practice

[00:59:02] Jesse Schwamb: It should radically, I think, like dignify the church's care for its most weakest, for its most obscure, for maybe the most inconvenient members.

And I'm talking about, you know, the elderly widow, the im- the imprisoned brother, the refugee believer, the shut-in. Yeah. And I think, like Christ says basically, in effect, "However you're treating them, you are treating me." Yeah. And so we need to frequently draw upon this duty of hospitality and prison visitation, like in that context, as marks of a healthy congregation.

It's, it's not like optional works of supererogation for like the especially devout. Like this is under all of our purview, and I like what you said there. Like we should take a little bit of stock and think about how it is w- the people that we know in our congregations, our local places of worship, there's somebody there who is probably hurting and suffering more than you are.

What can be done? Even if that's a text message letting them know that you actually are praying for them, that you commit yourselves to prayer, sitting with them, listening to them, sending a card or a word of encouragement to them. There's... Or maybe that is like, you know, I've been so blessed recently as my wife has convalesced from surgery, the number of people who just wanna bring food to you, and that is such a beautiful thing.

I'm, I'm gonna be honest. And we felt very cared for and loved in a way that was definitely profound. Like, that taking, trying to take care of all of our needs, both physical and spiritual otherwise, it takes some things away from us in our moment of our great weakness. And so I think that's really what Christ is after here.

And I presume on the day of judgment, from the people that I know, that, you know, that Jesus will say to, to Beth, like, uh, you know, "You, you brought food for those who are really in need." And she'll be like, "When? Who?" And she'll be like, "Well, when Jen Schwam was in her darkest hour of recovering," um, "when you brought the meal."

Uh, uh, that was doing for the least of these. That was doing the same thing onto me. And so I think that's really more what we have in view here. I, I think, like you're saying, Tony, we can get paralyzed into thinking, "Well, like I haven't been in like many maximum security prisons to like go in and preach the gospel and sit down with hard offenders and really hash out what forgiveness looks like."

And I'm not entirely sure that's what's in view here. I think really it's these more practical, maybe boring, maybe mundane, but certainly costly exercises of practical love and faith that should be the marks of who we are. And I think it's okay to take stock and kind of in the same way that we might say test to see whether or not you were actually in the faith, and these things I think are good markers.

They should at least give us pause to consider.

[01:01:39] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, yeah.

[01:01:40] Wrap Up And Next Series

[01:01:40] Tony Arsenal: Well, Jesse, this has been a, I think, a great discussion these past, uh, weeks here on this passage, and I know that I'm looking at it differently than I, I have in the past. So- Me too ... I really appreciate, um, the fact that this podcast exists and that people listen to it, 'cause it forces me-

to actually, like, spend time- Yeah ... talking through, uh, what, what the scriptures say and really thinking about them. Um, it holds me accountable, 'cause my words go out there and, and they're out there. Yeah, me too. So I have to be thoughtful and careful about what I say. And I think it's, it's worth, um, it's worth investing this kind of time in the scriptures, obviously.

So I, I'm just really am enjoying this parable series. It's crazy to think that we're s- we're sort of coming up to the end of it. Um, this is the last, like, parable chunk in Matthew, and there's, there's not a lot of parables in the other gospels that have not been covered in one form or another, um, you know, through the Matthew portion of the parables.

So we're coming out of this, uh, probably quicker than it feels like. So I'm excited to keep going. We're gonna pop into the parables in the other gospels, the, the sort of smattering that exists that aren't attested here in Matthew. Uh, we're gonna probably dip into some of the I am sayings in, in, um, John, which function a little bit differently, but still kind of in the same vein of Christ teaching, and I think it's gonna be a good time.

So I, I'm not gonna go through again. We're not gonna do all the housekeeping. You guys know where to find us on Telegram, Patreon. You know what all that stuff is. So, um, please do, uh, please do tune in, tune in. Please tune in next time. Tune in. Same Brotherhood channel, same Brotherhood time. Uh, the time is whenever you listen to this.

It's a podcast, not a TV show. But, uh, Jesse, until whenever that happens to be, honor everyone.

[01:03:13] Jesse Schwamb: Love the Brotherhood.

In this episode of The Reformed Brotherhood, Tony Arsenal and Jesse Schwamb bring their extended series on the parables of Matthew to a powerful climax with the passage most listeners have been waiting for: the Sheep and the Goats (Matthew 25:31–46). Far from a checklist of works required for salvation, this text is unpacked as the master parable of Christ's entire parabolic ministry — a sovereign declaration of divine election, not a merit-based audit of individual performance. Tony and Jesse explore why this passage has been chronically misread as a call to works righteousness, why the language of inheritance and predestination is front and center, and how a Reformed reading liberates rather than burdens the conscience. Along the way, they weigh in on Herman Bavinck's prescient warning about media distraction, and Jesse recommends a Puritan gem on anxiety worth picking up immediately.

Key Takeaways

• The Sheep and Goats is best understood as a parable, or at minimum parable-adjacent. The Greek construction in verse 31 mirrors the same comparative language Christ uses throughout his parabolic ministry, placing this text firmly within that tradition rather than outside it.
• The kingdom was prepared before any works were done — this is election language. The phrase "inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world" (v. 34) is not a reward for performance; it is the language of sovereign predestination preceding all human action.
• The works of the sheep are diagnostic, not causative. What the righteous did reveals who they already were — sheep — rather than being the mechanism by which they became sheep. The beak doesn't make the bird.
• Both groups are surprised, and that surprise is the parabolic punchline. Neither the sheep nor the goats anticipated the verdict they received, which undermines any reading that frames this text as an encouragement to accumulate saving merit.
• This passage is a recapitulation of the wheat and tares parable. Sheep and goats co-mingled until the moment of final separation, just as wheat and tares grow together until the harvest — the judgment reveals what was always true.
• Any theology that requires a human contribution to activate or complete salvation misreads this text.Whether Roman Catholic, Arminian, or Mormon in flavor, every view that makes God's preparation of the kingdom contingent on foreseen human merit fundamentally inverts the logic of the passage.
• The scope of judgment — "all nations" (ta ethnos) — would have been scandalous to first-century Jewish ears. This language deliberately expands the kingdom beyond ethnic Israel, fulfilling the Abrahamic covenant promise and confounding the assumptions of the religious elite.

Key Concepts The Kingdom Prepared Before Your Works: Sovereign Election, Not Merit

When the King says to those on his right, "Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world" (Matthew 25:34), the theological weight of that single sentence is staggering. The kingdom was not prepared in response to anything the sheep did. It was prepared before time, before works, before choice — which means the works that follow in the passage cannot be the grounds of that inheritance. Only a Calvinistic understanding of election can sustain this logic without remainder. Arminian views require God to foresee a qualifying human response; Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox views require some degree of meritorious participation; even certain Lutheran frameworks lean on non-resistance to grace. Reformed theology alone places the entire cause within God's sovereign, unconditional decree — and this passage, read plainly, says exactly that.

Works as Evidence, Not Ground: The Diagnostic Function of This Parable

The great pastoral error in preaching this passage is treating it as a performance rubric — a list of charitable acts that, if completed, qualify a person for eternal life. But Christ does not separate the sheep from the goats because of what they did or failed to do. He separates them, and then describes the activity that characterized each group. The works are revelatory. They surface what was already true of each person's nature, just as a bird's beak reveals its species rather than constituting it. This reframing is liberating precisely because it means assurance does not rest on tallying acts of charity. It rests on the sovereign act of a Father who prepared a kingdom and the regenerating work of the Spirit who produces, in those He has claimed, a life that looks like the one described here.

"All Nations": The Scandal of an Ethnically Inclusive Kingdom

The Greek phrase ta ethnē — translated "all nations" in most English Bibles — would have landed very differently on first-century Jewish ears, particularly those of the Pharisees and Sadducees who comprised a significant portion of Christ's audience throughout Matthew 24–25. To them, ta ethnē meant the Gentiles, the peoples out there, those outside the covenant. The implicit effect of Christ's language is to place every people group — including Israel — within a single undifferentiated mass standing before his throne, with no ethnic group receiving preferential standing at the bar of judgment. This is entirely consistent with the Abrahamic promise of blessing to all families of the earth (Genesis 12:3), the vision of Psalm 2, and the missionary thrust of the Great Commission. The scandal is not incidental — it is the point. The kingdom Christ is ushering in is not the ethnic-nationalist kingdom the religious establishment expected.

Memorable Quotes

The kingdom of heaven was prepared for those whom Christ has elected before the foundation of the world, and it was the preparation of that kingdom that brought you through this such that you did the good works that you did... That is caused by the fact that God prepared a kingdom for you in advance, not that you somehow caused this kingdom to be prepared for you. - Tony

It's not the beak that makes it the sparrow, it's the sparrow that makes it the kind of beak it is. That's the kind of classification we're talking about in this parable. - Tony

The best freedom is the one that turns over all things to God and takes him at his word when he says, 'In love you were predestined to inherit this as sons and daughters of the kingdom,' so that he does all the work, because we do not want to have any of that work our own. - Jesse

Full Transcript

[00:01:11] Jesse Schwamb: Welcome to episode 498 of the Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse

[00:01:19] Tony Arsenal: And I'm Tony, and this is the podcast with ears to hear. Hey, brother.

[00:01:24] Jesse Schwamb: Hey, brother. They said it couldn't be done. They said we couldn't come back. We wouldn't come back and continue in Matthew 25. But here we are, and we're ending this chapter in this whole section about sheep and goats.

Everybody was clamoring for it. Everybody wanted to know, what about the sheep and the goats? And I think the last time we all chatted together, we prefaced it by saying it's parable adjacent. Or let's just say- Yes ... we just stacked up these three other parables, lots of things going on, and then Jesus resolves this or brings all these parables to a culmination by speaking about the end times, the end of all things, and the sheep and the goats.

Yeah. And so we gotta go there

[00:02:06] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah, I'm stoked.

[00:02:07] What Counts Parable

[00:02:07] Tony Arsenal: And y- you know, I, I was talking with a brother at, um, at church yesterday on the Lord's day, and he was asking how the podcast's going and what we're doing. And, you know, I was kind of thinking, like, I was talking about the parables and how we're kind of moving forward, and we were gonna do some of the I am sayings in John.

And, and I was thinking, like, what is a parable anyways? And who decides what a parable is and what a parable isn't? Right. Um, some of the parables Christ calls a parable, others he doesn't. Uh, we'll probably talk a little bit about that when we get to, uh, some of the back half of Luke. But this, this episode I think is gonna be really, really the payoff and really the culmination of not just these, like, this trio of or trilogy of parables that we've talked about, but I think really, like, the payout of all of the parables in Matthew.

It's really, like, the summary of all of Christ's parabolic teachings. So it's, it's a good place for us to round out Matthew, and then we'll, we'll dip into the parables in the other gospels, probably have a couple more months of, of, uh, parable talk before we move on to the next thing. But, uh, it's been great, and I'm super, super stoked for this.

This is one of my favorite passages, actually, and there's so much to dig into. I, I, I'm just gonna say now, we probably won't make it through the whole thing- Right ... uh, because there's a lot there. But we'll see. We'll see how we do. Maybe Jesse and I will be super efficient tonight, uh, but we usually aren't, so.

[00:03:27] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, that's never happened. We, we take it low and slow. Not only that- ... it was reminding me as you spoke about that kind of proverb generally of if you wanna go build a wall, you assess what you need, how many stones, and then you go gather those stones. Yeah. You should double it, or if you're gonna go out and fight an army, take stock of that army.

That's basically what we do, but in reverse. Anytime, like, you just... I just heard you say- ... like, "It'll probably take us a couple more months," you should double that. That's probably how long- Yeah ... it's actually gonna take us.

[00:03:50] Faith Works Assurance

[00:03:50] Jesse Schwamb: Even in this- Yeah ... conversation, I think we're gonna get stuck in the best way possible speaking about things like faith, works, and assurance because there's a lot of language here- Yeah

that could seem on the surface to sit in this tension with justification by faith alone. And I think the key to resolving all that tension, as I hopefully think we'll see, lies in the readings of works as the evidence of living faith rather than its ground, and I think that's what- Yes ... Christ is leading us through all of these parables, actually, whether it goes back.

And you should listen to all those episodes. In fact, I gotta ask. Th- I mean, this brother you were talking to, it just strikes me as that question had already be answered for him if you were listening to the podcast. So-

[00:04:29] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, I don't think he does. No, I don't think he does- ... listen to the podcast. Uh, he knows that I do the podcast, and he's very gracious to ask me about it.

Tom. And I think he's probably listened to the podcast before. Got it. Um, and he's, he's just a very kind, gracious brother who, who is concerned and wants to know what I'm doing. And, um, he has, he has his own sort of, like, production stuff that he does that he enjoys that I'm, I'm not super keyed into. But, uh, it was just nice.

But, but it did get me thinking, like, I was trying to explain to him where we were in the progress of the parables, and I was like, "I can't really... I don't really know," because, like, it's hard to even understand and fully... There's no, like, full comprehensive universal list of what is a parable- Right ... and what's not.

And I think what we've found as we've been going through this is sometimes, sometimes you come up against a portion of a text that is often taught sort of separate from the, the rest of it. Parables get taught discreet from other parables. But then you have these sort of, like, intervening texts, or this one's kind of a summary text, that's so integrated to what the parable means you really can't do a series on these parables without also treating this text.

Which is gonna be interesting, 'cause I've never, I've never encountered somebody who really roots this teaching here of Christ in the context of the parables, despite its proximity. So it'll be fun. We're gonna figure it out in real time, and, and it'll be good.

[00:05:47] Jesse Schwamb: No, it's gonna be fun.

[00:05:48] Deny Doomscrolling Bavinck

[00:05:48] Jesse Schwamb: And speaking of fun, we're so glad that you're listening, and we know that you're waiting with bated breath to hear about affirmations or denials.

It's of course that part of the conversation where we either affirm with something that we think is fantastic, maybe by way of recommendation, or conversely, we deny against something that isn't that great. So Tony, as is our custom in the liturgy of the Reformed Brotherhood podcast, I ask you once again, are you affirming with or deny against?

[00:06:15] Tony Arsenal: I am denying against something, and I'm gonna do that by affirming a Herman Bavinck quote. Uh, so I'm gonna read it for you. This, uh... Some of the guys in the Facebook group have put... or the Facebook group, the Telegram chat, have put together a, uh, like, a reading group to work through Bavinck's, uh, Wonderful Works of God, which is great, and I'm loving it.

I haven't been able to participate in the conversation as much as I would like to, but just being part of a reading group, uh, sort of keeps you on schedule, which is great. So I've been reading through Wonderful Works of God, and on the Kindle edition, on page 34, uh, which I think is still the, I think is still the, uh, introduction, he says, quote, "The reading of daily and weekly newspapers, of magazines and brochures, devours our every blink.

There's a lack of desire and opportunity for the investigation of scripture and the study of old theological works," end quote. And when I read that, it just really struck me as like- If that was true like 70 years ago, 80 years ago when Bavinck was writing this, right? And all there was was hard, hard copy media.

There was no, uh, there was no digital media. There was radio, but there wasn't a lot of programming. Uh, I don't think that there was much in the way of television broadcasting. If there was, it was, it was very, very limited and very rudimentary. Um, even then he was saying the daily news cycle and all of this extra stuff that is out there is consuming our, quote, "Every blink," which I thought was a really interesting phrase.

Um, it's basically like it's so ingrained in us, we're so invested and obsessed with the news cycle. Uh, or you might translate that to like to our Twitter feed or our Facebook feed or our Instagram reels or whatever it might be, and dare I say it, the podcasts we listen to.

[00:08:05] Jesse Schwamb: Right.

[00:08:05] Tony Arsenal: Um, that we don't save time for scripture and other theological works.

And I think it's funny too is that the, the eternal, uh, the eternal contemporary statement of the Reformed world is like we don't read enough old theological works. Even Bavinck, who I'm reading as one of the old... I mean, not like super old, but like one of the old theological works, is saying, "Hey, we don't read enough old theological works."

So I'm denying this sort of like obsession we have with the daily news cycle and with constantly being up to date and like constantly consuming all of that. Um, we've talked about how like our modern global news cycle sort of, uh, is built around the deception that we can be sort of pseudo omnipotent and know all things about everything.

And, um- There's a lot of work that's been done to show that, like, the world's not really that much, not that much more of a violent place than it was 100 years ago. We just know a lot more about what's going on- Right ... in other parts of the world. And there's pros and cons to that. But I think the main con is, like, we, we feel suddenly that we have to be, you know, deeply involved in the goings on of a church on the other side of the country that we never would've even known existed otherwise.

It- there's just a, there's a sense of omnipotence and omnipresence that's just not becoming for the creature that I think we try to take on. So Bavinck knew it. Uh, we've talked about it. Lots and lots of people have talked about it. This isn't new. I'm not, I'm not e- engineering anything new on this. But that quote really struck me when I was reading.

I was like, "Dang, man, he, he got it right 100 years ago or, or 80 years ago, and we're still struggling with it." And I think probably, like, if you go back and you look at the, I don't know, more occasional writings of people like Martin Luther and John Calvin, um, as they're interacting with, like, people in the Reformed community or the Protestant community, I bet you would find statements like this too about how, like, we really spend a lot of time reading, like, silly things and not spending- Right

our time studying the scripture or studying, um, theological works. So that's my denial. I'm sticking to it, and if that means you feel like you need to turn this podcast off and go read some John Calvin or some Herman Bavinck, then by all means. Uh, I think you're probably going to be edified by what we have to talk about.

But, uh, th- the Bible's better, so if you gotta go do it, if you only got- That's true ... an hour today to study scripture or listen to this podcast, please go study scripture. Yeah. Uh, hopefully we can do a little bit of both with this podcast. But Herman Bavinck said it best. Our every blink is consumed with pamphlets and newspapers and it just is- It's true

it's pretty silly.

[00:10:41] Jesse Schwamb: It's true.

[00:10:42] Meme Detour Reading Groups

[00:10:42] Jesse Schwamb: I gotta take us all the way back to where you started there, and I'm going to betray, to nobody's surprise, my really strong naivete when it comes- ... to social media, and memes in particular. But this is what occurred to me, and I'm gonna try it. This is, like, what classically makes really good podcasting.

Let me try to describe a meme to you that I'm not even sure I actually understand or know. So this will be great. I think, you tell me, Tony, 'cause you may have seen this. It's an old meme too, so I'm not even, like, on the cutting edge here. I think it's a meme of two panels showing, like, two pictures of Drake.

In know one he's kinda, like, pushing away as if to say, like, "Get that outta here," and the other one's like, "Oh yeah, that's the stuff." Do you know what I'm talking about? Yeah. Is that accurate?

[00:11:21] Tony Arsenal: I do. I think you're gonna use it wrong, but yeah.

[00:11:23] Jesse Schwamb: Is that Drake? Okay, all

[00:11:24] Tony Arsenal: right. Yeah, that's, that's the meme.

[00:11:25] Jesse Schwamb: Okay, okay.

And usually, if I understand it correctly, it's kind of like a faux juxtaposition of two things, right? Like, okay. So like here, let me try it. Uh, uh, let me just try it on everybody. Here we go. I'm gonna describe to you how I just interpret this based on what you said, 'cause something cracked me up that you said, Tony.

If I were gonna make this meme just based on how you opened that up, the first panel would be like Drake pushing away the idea or being like, "That's no good," book club. The second one would be reading group, as in like, like the reading group is like the new cool way of like just kind of... Did I use it properly?

Am I close?

[00:11:59] Tony Arsenal: I think the problem with this is that there's like a, there's like an ironic way to use it, and then there's like a more direct way to use it. Mm. Yeah. The direct way would be like some- like Drake's pushing away something that's bad, and he's- Yeah ... like accepting something that's good. That'd be like the direct way.

Yes. The more ironic one is where like Drake is pushing away something that's

actually pretty, actually pretty good, and he's- Yeah ... accepting the one that's pretty silly. Oh, okay. Um, there's a lot of memes that have that basic format. Never mind. There's one with like Jordi LaForge. I think there's a Michael Scott one. I tried. I tried. But yeah, no, I, I think yours is valid, it's just, I think it's an older usage of the meme.

That's like the, that's like the middle English version of that meme. The Shakespearean use of that meme.

[00:12:36] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. I'll take that. It's the old English style. I love a good book club or a reading group. A, a reading group just, it does have that sound like maybe somebody in the group has a monocle, or you guys have tea.

Either way- Yeah ... I absolutely love it. And yes, what are our beautiful quotes. You kind of hear that general conception recapitulated among like theologians almost in every era. But it does make you think, what would Bavinck say about, like doom scrolling on the smartphone? Like- Yeah ... he's beside himself, right?

It would just be beside himself. So I'm with you. I, it, there's gonna be a condemnation in every generation. Maybe I say this with some degree of like chronological snobbery, especially in ours, when it comes to not, like you said, I think kind of like not carving out or not prioritizing time in the scriptures.

Yeah. There's not gonna be any excuse of like, "Well, I just didn't have time." Right. Or, "There were too many things to read." It's just, it's not gonna cut it. So I'm with you. I think you and I have talked about this at length, even just like the news media like you and I consume, like just s- set aside social media for a second.

Just like how i- how much value is there in a lot of like what we cons- used to consider to be like well-informed reporting? How valuable is that to us? Yeah. And I'm certainly not saying like that everybody should be like unconcerned and uninterested in the world, but I think it's to what degree and what fascination we have with that, and how it fits into our priority as we consume information each day.

That's the thing that's tricky, and there's no really-

[00:14:02] Tony Arsenal: Yeah ...

[00:14:02] Jesse Schwamb: good answer except to weigh out with the spiritual discernment- Yeah ... how we ought to consume that stuff. But certainly I think, without question, we need to be prioritizing time in prayer, time in the scriptures. I imagine if we were all doing that with a great deal of attention, that all of the other things would kind of find their way into the right place.

Or let's say they would just find their way out of our lives in a significant way- Yeah ... that would remove us from distraction and anxiety, instead bring us back into the providence of God.

[00:14:31] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. And I'm not, I'm not gonna be the guy that tells you you can never s- you can never scroll Instagram or TikTok or whatever.

Um, I, I think that's a decision that's between you and the Holy Spirit as far as how you spend your time. But I, I do think, um, I think you're right- We are accountable for the decisions we make and how- Right ... we choose to divide up our time. And I- God, I mean, God is the inventor of fun. He's the inventor of leisure, and he is, uh, I think he's pleased and honored when we, we make good use of our time f- for things that are restful and rejuvenating.

Um, he doesn't expect us to just slavishly read scripture all day, every day, like every minute. That's not, that's not the biblical expectation. Um, and so I think it's fine if you wanna sit down and watch a fun show, or if you wanna watch some YouTube videos, or listen to a silly podcast, or listen to a serious podcast.

Um, but I do, I agree. Like, we, we really need to be thoughtful. And I think where, where Bavinck's quote, uh, is strong is it's not so much about, "Don't read these things." Right. He, he's talking about these things consume our every blink. Like, m- he's treating blink... He's using the word blink as sort of a fill-in for like our, our finite resource of time and attention, and these things have consumed all of them.

There's a very strong use of that word consume. Uh, and I, I think that's really the, the point that I'm trying to make is we often allow, either intentionally or unintentionally, we, we just let our time get all sucked up, uh, on things that maybe are good but are not pr- properly proportioned. Um- Like I said, it's, it's fine to spend some time on Twitter and to get into a debate once in a while, or to check in on your friends on Facebook, your old high school, college buddies or whatever, but we can definitely take it too far.

So I think it's a good corrective for all of us to at least make a stop and think about how we're spending our time, and whether we are affording the appropriate amount of time to things like scripture, theological study, catechesis of our children, um, family worship, all of those good things. So we don't have to go much more into that.

I think the point has been made. Uh, so Jesse, what are you affirming and/or denying tonight?

[00:16:43] Affirm Puritan Anxiety Cure

[00:16:43] Jesse Schwamb: Perfect segue, because speaking of reading old things, you know me, I've always got some kind of Puritan work in the rotation, and the one I just finished is the one I'm affirming, which is called Special Providence for Anxious Souls by Obadiah Sedgwick, who I think is kinda...

Like, people are sleeping on Sedgwick, you know? Mm-hmm. He's, he's kinda like, he's there in the wings, but we need to take him off the bench. And I came across this book and I thought, "Who doesn't want a title like that in their lives?" Like, we got some anxiety in all of our souls. And I'm affirming this because, uh, hi- his definitions, his writing is, are on point.

But here's what I thought. I was embarrassed that I picked this up expecting one thing, and then in typical puritanical fashion, was delivered something else that was far better. And I was thinking about this title as you might see it, like, in your modern bookstore today, whether it's, like, in Barnes & Nobles or at any of the periodicals we were just kind of mentioning or implying that are out there.

And I was expecting to get some kind of, I don't know, six or seven things, I mean, that's Puritan style, but six or seven things that would really help you diagnose the psychology, and then going back to the scripture in ways, all, all the ways we'd expect about how God loves us and cares for us, and all those things are true.

And yet the only way I could describe how this book ministered to me is, like, how you might go to a physical therapist for some kind of ailment, which I have many as I get older, and have recently been to one. And the ailment I had was, um, basically like tarsal tunnel, which is like carpal tunnel for your foot.

And so there was some nerves that were inflamed and causing some pain and some weirdness in my feet. And here's what I do know about physical therapy now that I think the Puritans also do for our souls, and that is the physical therapist gave me this full workup. They prodded me and poked me and rubbed things and made things hurt- And in the course of doing that, they clearly could figure out what was wrong with my foot.

And so when he gave me the diagnosis, after, again, rubbing that part and, like, doing one of those things where he's like, you know, they tap on your hard and they're like, "Does that hurt?" I'm like, "Yes, it does hurt." And I presume that's because you know anatomy. And, you know, he's, he's ta- tapping on my ankle and it's causing my foot underneath to hurt.

And after all that, you know, I run on a treadmill. He d- takes all this video, and this is what he says to me. He goes, "Yeah, so this is actually pretty straightforward." And I was like, "Great, so what are we talking about? Like exercises, uh, splints, like massage?" He's like, "You have a weak butt." And I was like-

"I'm sorry, let's talk about that for a second." And this is what I've learned about physical therapy, is it's rarely about the thing that's actually bothering you or the thing that's hurt, right? It's something- Yeah ... far different. It's something almost seemingly, like, disjointed or removed or divorced from the very thing, maybe even non-contiguous, if only in our minds, maybe even logically.

And so what I love about this is the first half of the book is just speaking about the province of God before it even gets into this idea of anxiety. And then the treatment on anxiety and worry is, he goes through, like, six or seven things in particular, are just absolutely glorious. So good that I want you to read it.

I don't even want to talk about it. Uh, that, that's my admonishment to you, is that you should just go pick it up. So I'm affirming again that the Puritans in particular do this thing where there's, there's no cheap advice here. It's not even hide advice. It's really good advice, but it's the kind that says, "You have a weak butt" when you're concerned that your ankle-

is messed up. Yeah. And that's sometimes what you need to hear. And in my case, after... Let's make this super weirdly spiritual. After doing a bunch of squats, I don't know what the spiritual equivalent is of that. After doing a bunch of squats, my ankle and my foot was so much better. And it, because I had somebody who cared enough for me to go through and actually diagnose the root of it, that was the reason that inevitably there was healing.

So I've, this has given me so much to think about, this tiny little treatise. So much to put into practice. It's so rich, so good, so practical, and yet I think you'll find in many ways joyfully unexpected. So I highly affirm to everybody listening, and even those who aren't, Special Providence for Anxious Souls, Obadiah Sedgwick.

You'll, you'll love it

[00:20:49] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.

[00:20:49] Physical Therapy Spiritual Practice

[00:20:49] Tony Arsenal: So two thoughts. Uh, one, uh, I can confirm Jesse has a weak butt, um, flat as a board. So it's probably, probably better after, after doing some squats. Wow. Uh, two- Wow. ... uh, I can say I also am in some physical therapy right now, and I've been a little bit of a slacker. And what I will contribute to the conversation is just like in physical therapy, they can give you all of the exercises- Yeah

uh, that you want. If you don't do the work, you're not going to get better. Yeah. And so whether it's Jesse doing squats or me not finding time to stretch and to do some, like, arm exercises with a, with a s- uh, like a TheraBand, uh, the same holds true. And, and maybe to unify our, uh, affir- our denials/affirmations into one mega, mega recommendation, um, the same holds true in that, one, we can take a book like this from, uh, Sedgwick, and we can turn it into the same thing we do with media where we're just...

it's just devouring our blinks. Right. And we're just using it as a way to sort of, like, feed our eye hole

Get better. You won't improve. Um, and that's actually the same with scripture. Like y-you can- Right ... turn scripture into, uh, into a snack food that you, you don't actually use to be nutritious. Um, I think there's probably more benefit to reading scripture sort of rote and, and almost mechanically than there is to reading anything else.

But, um, but at the end of the day, you can also consume your blinks with scripture and not get a lot out of it if all you're doing is passing your eyes over text. So get in there. I think that's great. I haven't read that one. I mean, I think there's... I think there are probably many, I can't think of one off the top of my head, but I'm sure there are many, many Puritan treaties that- treatises that are similar in theme and tone and have the same kind of like spiritual antidote or spiritual medicine, um, prescribed by these guys that is good and wholesome.

And again, like, like you're saying, like it's not that complicated. It's not that hard. Right. It just takes- Right ... you just actually have to do the work. Um, it's funny, my physical therapy thing is my, my shoulder has been really ba- really messed up, and I went in, I expected him to give me all these, all these shoulder exercises, and he's like, "Uh Really what you need to do is you fix your neck, uh, 'cause your shoulder is, is being in- injured because you're sleeping- Okay

on that side because you're trying to stay off the other side. So, like, you really gotta fix your neck so you can sleep on the other side of your body. And I was like, "So I'm just, like, sleeping wrong?" Like, it's funny, there's a joke, it's like in your 20s you can do anything you want, in your 30s, like, you gotta be a little bit careful, and in your 40s, like, you hurt yourself just sleeping.

Right. Just getting out of bed is dangerous.

[00:23:46] Jesse Schwamb: It's

[00:23:46] Tony Arsenal: true.

[00:23:47] Jesse Schwamb: It's true. So. It's a tough world. But

[00:23:48] Tony Arsenal: it's true. I feel like a really old man saying that.

[00:23:51] Read Matthew 25 Aloud

[00:23:51] Jesse Schwamb: You know, it strikes me that you're right, of course, that there's so much here we always have to put into practice. There's so much here that we have to trust with God.

There's a faith that works. And so I think actually that is the most lovely inroad into this final passage of Matthew, because there's a lot here for us to talk about with all of those things, and to understand it in this proper context. So as you've already set us up, Tony, the best part of our podcast is the scripture, for sure, 100%.

So let's go there. So we're in Matthew 25 in case you're just joining us. And for some reason I went into, like, a full radio mode, as if this, like, this is being broadcast live, and you just came into the program. We're in Matthew 25, uh, starting in verse 31, and I'm gonna read until the end of the chapter.

There's so much here that of course we're not gonna get to all of it, but in the spirit of literally having the full context of the scripture in front of us, and to hear it all, I think it's important. It w- b- better yet, you should go back and read the entire chapter and then tune in right now. But let me start at verse 31.

"But when the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. And all the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate them one from another as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And he will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom which has been prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry, and you gave me something to eat. I was thirsty, and you gave me something to drink. I was a stranger, and you invited me in, naked, and you clothed me.

I was sick, and you visited me.

[00:25:32] Judgment Scene Read

[00:25:32] Jesse Schwamb: I was in prison, and you came to me.' Then the righteous will answer him saying, "Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? And when did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or naked and clothe you? And when did we see you sick or in prison and come to you?"

And the King will answer and say to them, "Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of mine, even the least of them, you did it to me." Then he will say to those on his left, "Depart from me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angers-- angels.

For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat. I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink. I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me." Then they will themselves also answer saying, "Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison and did not take care of you?"

Then he will answer them saying, "Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me." And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life

[00:26:47] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.

[00:26:49] Parable Not Fear

[00:26:49] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, it's, it's, um, it's a sobering passage. And just as I think we've seen in a lot of the other parables, um These eschatological parables and these eschatological sayings of Christ, uh, as you kind of alluded to earlier, I, I think they are really, really, um...

They are not prone to being misinterpreted. Right. The church has been prone to misinterpreting and misapplying these, um, in a, in a way that's used to make, make the Christian fearful and to, uh, undermine their assurance rather than to call them to action or to accountability.

[00:27:33] Why It's A Parable

[00:27:33] Tony Arsenal: Um, and I think a- as I've been reading through this and I've been sort of glancing at the Greek as we're reading, I actually think I'm on...

I, I stumbled on much more better ground to treat this as a parable than I even originally thought I did. You know, I, I had this whole lead-up that this isn't technically a parable, but when you read here, when it says, in verse 31, it says, "When the Son of Man comes in glory and the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.

Before him will be gathered all nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates- Right ... the sheep from the goats." If you go back to verse 14, when it says, "For it will be like a man," uh, that, that first word of verse 14 in the Greek is the same word as is used when it says, um, uh, "He separates people one from another as a shepherd."

That same word is used as there, it's just translated differently because of where it comes in the, um, in the text. So Christ is still making this comparison, so it would be as though he said, um, you know, like the common, most common, at least so far, most common kind of parabolic introduction is like, "The Kingdom of Heaven is like."

Um, this is the same basic language he's using here to introduce what the eschaton will be like. Right? The ga- the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate them. It says people in the ESV, but will separate them one from another. You could also say the, the nations or the peoples will be gathered before him.

Right. He will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep. So the parable here is the s- the shepherd separating the sheep from the goats, this whole process of the separation and this, this, um, frankly, like it's, it feels and smells like a parable, right? It does. This, this, um, figure, this shepherd in the parable or the shepherd in the saying is saying these sort of like parabolic statements.

He's using this language that's kind of like shocking punchline statement. Like we've talked about how in parables there's often this sort of unexpected turn of events, or there's this unexpected kind of shocking language, and this whole like twist at the end in both, sort of both s- chunks here, where like the sheep don't really understand, like they didn't really recognize that they were doing sheepy things, and the goats didn't really understand that they were being goats.

That's like the parabolic twist or the parabolic punchline here. So the, the kingdom of heaven is like, basically it's like the Son of Man will come in his glory and it will be like this. It will be like a shepherd separating the sheep from the goats. That's the parabolic connection here. Mm-hmm. So I actually think that, that linguistically we're on, we're on pretty solid ground not just to treat this as a summary of all the parables, um- I think of for sure these three parables, but it, it really is like the master parable, and I think probably the master parable that kinda governs and constrains and explains all of the parabolic ministry of Christ.

So I'm, I'm stoked for us to really dig into the details a little bit, but I think linguistically we're on super good ground to, to treat this as a parable. I agree. At the very least, it's stronger than just parable adjacent.

[00:30:44] Jesse Schwamb: Right.

[00:30:44] Tony Arsenal: It- but even if we aren't saying it's a parable proper, it's stronger than that.

It still is using this kinda comparative ministry, comparative language that Christ has used throughout the parabolic, um, sayings of Christ.

[00:30:57] Jesse Schwamb: The construction seems a little bit less veiled because here we have Jesus implanting himself directly into the account.

[00:31:03] Tony Arsenal: Mm-hmm.

[00:31:04] Shepherd Imagery Stakes

[00:31:04] Jesse Schwamb: At the same time, though, he's drawing on all the things you just said he does, especially with this allusion to shepherding, which would've been, of course, common throughout.

So it seems to me a lovely bridge to all of the overt parables he's just told, but now he's bringing them all together and placing himself clearly as, like, the interpreter, as the identifier of all the things, as the one to seal up all of the edges, as it were. So it's clear that this is about the end times.

All of these were all about the end times and about Jesus' role in them. And so of course here he identifies himself as the eschatological judge just to make it clear. He's the one who sits on his glorious throne, and that's significant, and that's why I think we sometimes feel like, well, this is not a parable because he's, he's being very, like, Christologically certain and direct here.

You know, throughout scripture the final judgment is God's prerogative alone, but the Father has committed all that judgment to the Son, and here's Jesus affirming that. And so again, like Reformed theology, in all our conversations we've consistently emphasized that this text is in many ways, like, proof of Christ's full deity and his role as mediatorial king, and he's exercising his office as the judge at his return in glory.

And though, like you said, at the same time, here's the cool parable kind of scent or flavor is you get all these nations, every person who has ever lived, not merely Israel or merely the church. And how does Jesus describe this? He goes back into parabolic language. And we got the shepherd imagery that- Yeah

is, like, similar to Ezekiel 34 where God himself is judging between the sheep of his flock. And that separation, the shockingness of it, it's immediate, it's binary. There's no third category. There's only two eternal destinies. There's no purgatory, no middle ground, no post-mortem opportunity for repentance.

So all that's at stake. And then again, the beauty of the language itself or the setup of the construction of the story as it unfolds is that both groups- Get the same speech with a change in do or do not, but they both ask the same question from, like, wildly different perspectives and standings. And that's the beautiful- Yeah

thing to make reconciliation over is what does all this mean then? How is all this established and how is this final judgment come to be such that there are sheep and goats if, in fact, they're both doing the same things theoretically, or they're at least both asking the same questions of, well, when did this ever actually occur?

That, that's what's for us to unpack either way.

[00:33:29] All Nations Gathered

[00:33:29] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, and b- before we jump into, um, into the parable itself and start to unpack that, the other element that I think is worth, uh, and this just came to me so hopefully I'm not on too far of a, of a limb here. But the other element that I think is worth at least commenting on, um, we've, we've remarked, especially in these last three eschatological, um, parables, how much these are directed at the religious leaders, right?

Right. The, the, the people are, um, the, the- the parables are told, um, in the context and sort of following up on these, this real directed, um, assault against the religious leaders who thought they were the ones, right? They're the ones that have a claim to the Kingdom of Heaven, they're the ones that, um, are the, you know, they're the ones that think they're doing the right thing, they're the ones that are ushering in God's kingdom.

This little phrase here, "gathered all the nations," would also have really stuck in the craw of the religious leaders, right? Because the word for nations that's translated here is the same word that would el- elsewhere get translated as Gentiles, right? And the word people, when it says, "He will separate the people," that, that word people doesn't actually exist in the Greek.

So if you translate this very literally, it'd say, "Before him will, will be gathered all nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats." Now, I don't wanna go the route of saying, like, this is a parable about, like, which pe- people group will be brought into the kingdom and which won't, and I've read some that go that direction.

I don't wanna go there. But this idea that, like, even in the final judgment, the people who are in view here are the Gentiles, right? Right. I think most Jewish, particularly the, the Pharisees and the Sadducees hearing this, would've, would've read this and would've read ta ethnos, and would not have thought nations the way we do.

Certainly would not have thought of, like, modern nation states. They might have been thinking maybe, like, people groups in general, but they would be thinking more along the lines of, like, Psalm, Psalm 2, like, "Why do the nations rage?" kind of nations. Why do the Gentiles rage? Why do the peoples plot in vain?

They would've been thinking th- this, this, uh, judgment almost, at least on the face of it, almost excludes the Jews entirely when you think about it this way. It's really now sort of, like, zooming out where at the very least, at the minimal least, the Jews are just another people group within this broader judgment of the people group.

Right. So again, like, we've seen this theme that Christ is continually expanding the scope of what is considered to be the Kingdom of Heaven to include not just the Jewish people, um, but all nations, all people groups, all Gentiles and Jews alike. And in a very real sense, um, and I wanna be careful how I've said this, I know I've commented this in the past, there's a very real sense of anti-Semitism that is prominent in- reform, quote-unquote reformed circles right now that is just vile and disgusting and sinful, and has no place in any sort of Biblical Christianity.

But there is a reality that the Jewish people, broadly speaking, um, rejected the Messiah, at least while he was here on Earth. Um, relatively speaking, very few Jewish people, especially in the Jewish elite, like the leadership class, accepted Christ for who he was while he was here. Many Jews came to faith through the ministry of Peter, uh, and, and even through the ministry of Paul, even though he was an apostle to the Gentiles.

So it's not as though it remained the case, but at this point in Christ's ministry, the Jewish people were by and large were rejecting him as Messiah. And so this idea and, and sort of this like final culmination now saying like he gathered all the, all the Gentiles, all of the peoples, all of the nations.

In Jewish, in Jewish language and, and when you look in the Old Testament, and even in some of the New Testament literature, the nations were those people out there. So even if we don't translate this as Gentiles, we don't, we don't take that more like restrictive sense, even then it still implies that Christ is talking about people out there, the non-Jewish nations- Right

are being gathered before his throne. And so that's not to say, absolutely not to say that the Jewish people, that, that the Jewish people of his day or the, the... This is where it gets tricky too, 'cause like we think about modern Israel and we, we import our understandings of like nation states. That's not what was in view here.

The, the idea of a modern nation state was not a concept that existed in the first century. Um, you might have something like city states, but even that is kind of like a little bit ethereal. The idea here is that all people groups, and maybe, maybe we conceptualize Israel now as one of these people groups, the Israeli Jewish people as one of these people groups.

All of those people groups, Jews, Gentiles, Scythians, Athenians, Spartans, like, uh, Ethiopians, you know, all of these different people- Right ... groups that are mentioned in the, the New Testament, all of those peoples, all of those nations are gathered before the throne, and then he will separate them one from another in the same way that a shepherd sep- separates the goats.

[00:38:35] Group Judgment Assurance

[00:38:35] Tony Arsenal: And yes, I think there is an individualistic, um, judgment element, and this is where I think, um... And, and then I'll, I'll pause for a second. This is where I think we can go wrong reading this as a parable about the individual judgment of individuals in the future That's not really what the language here is supporting.

This is supporting sort of a broader group-based judgment, and the grouping is there are those who are sheep and there are those who are goats. But it doesn't appear as though Christ is saying like, "I'm evaluating each individual person, and this person is a sheep, this person is a goat." It's, it's a broader picture that, yes, has some implications for individual personal judgment, but when we read too much of that individual personal judgment into this parable that doesn't seem to be there, that's where we start to, like, rob individual Christians of their assurance.

We start to say, like, "Did you do enough? Did you feed enough poor people or did you not?" That's not really, not really what's at stake here, I don't think.

[00:39:40] Jesse Schwamb: No, it's definitely not. It's, it's important to remember just the beauty of, like, the consistent theological thread that runs all the way through the Old Testament, and then that we might expect, of course, to be manifest in Christ's teachings, which happen exactly here.

So he is going all the way back to that covenantal promise seed through Abraham, single seed, many people groups, many ethnicities. In this way, the gospel is ethnic inclusive. And so it is, why wouldn't he say that in this way to express that this is exactly from all time what God wanted to do is gather all people groups to himself?

Which means then by the time we get to the end of this chapter in verse 46, and there is this righteousness that... or the righteous that lead or go into eternal life, then of course we're led to believe here either directly or implicitly that that means that there would be some for whom the Pharisees would find it's, like, anathema to receive that kind of righteousness and eternal life are the ones in fact who are getting it.

And so even that is scandalous. So the, the whole thing is very much a setup, and I think it's the confusion again of this is Jesus saying again to the Sadducees, like, "You are confused. You do not know the power of God. You, you search for it everywhere else but do not find it in front of you. It, it's he who speak to you.

I am he. You think you search the scriptures, but you do not know." Everywhere it feels like he's saying that, and here also he's saying that again, but it's in the setup. And I'm with you. I think that there would've been a lot here that would've, like, just come right off his lips that would've been like, "Say what?"

Uh, that would've been, like, offensive right off- Yeah ... the top.

[00:41:16] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.

[00:41:17] Sovereign Separation

[00:41:17] Tony Arsenal: And the other, the other theme that plays out really loud and clear here, um, as we start to dig into this is, um, there's a sovereignty to this separation that is baked into, um, the king's right to decide who to keep and who to cast away.

Right. So I think we, we, um, understandably read into this an assessment of the productivity or the profitability or somehow the, like, merit or worth of the sheep as contrasted to the worth of the goats. Um, and we read into it like the sheep have utility and the goats don't, so the goats get cast into the- Right

outer darkness. That's not really, that's not really what's going on here, right? In a, in an agrarian society, like sheep and goats both have utility. It's not as though, like, sheep are worthless and goats aren't. There's a reason people have goats. Um, th- the, the issue here is that the king has decided that there are those on his right and there are those on his left, and the ones on his right he's gonna keep, and the ones on his left he's gonna cast away.

And, and so, um, there's this sovereign election and determination that precedes the rest of this, right? It's not as though he's ... And this is where the personal, sort of personal assessment part comes in. He doesn't look at a person and go, "All right, you did a g- enough good works to qualify as a sheep, so you go ahead and go over-" Right

and be a sheep. And you didn't do quite enough, so you're actually a goat, so you go over and you be a goat." He looks at, he says, "Y- sheep, goat. Goat, sheep." You know, he, he's separating them out, and then he describes what sheep do versus what goats do. And I, I, like I'm even drawing some of this language out.

The sheep goats part of this is actually only, like, a verse and a half. He then flips out of this parabolic language to now go back to the sort of strictly predictive eschatological ex- like explanatory language. So this is what it's like when the Son of Man is on, on his kingdom. He separates sheep and goats.

We read into, and maybe with some good reason, but we read into Uh, we read into the fact that the sheeps go to one side, the goats go to another. Then we sort of like attribute the characteristics of those who go to his right to sheep, and we attribute the characteristics... And I think we do this the wrong way.

How many sermons have you heard where the whole sermon is about how sheep are obedient, and they're, they're affable, and they listen, and they, they, they are sweet and kind, and goats are stubborn, and they, they just wreck everything, and they don't listen, right? And how many s- how many sermons have you heard where they talk about, like, well, sheep and goats really look the same in the Middle Eastern context, and the only way you can tell them apart is what, by what they do?

I think there's probably some, uh, benefit to thinking through those elements, but Christ does not make that point in this parable- Mm ... at least not directly, right? He said, "This is the activity. Imagine a man who has sheep and he has goats. He takes the sheep, he puts them on one side. He takes the goats on another side."

That's what the separation at the end of the time, at the end of time will be like. Then he goes straight back out of the parable language into saying, "This is how the king will actually make the distinction.

[00:44:29] Predestination Before Works

[00:44:29] Tony Arsenal: The ones on his left, or on his right, he will say, 'Come, you're blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.'"

Right? This is predestination language, not eschatological judgment language. The sheep were guaranteed a kingdom from before the foundation of the world. Before they did anything bad or didn't do anything good, they were guaranteed a kingdom from before the foundation of the world. Then he says, he explains to them, like the context that, as you said before, that reveals that they were sheep all along.

[00:45:02] Jesse Schwamb: Right.

[00:45:02] Tony Arsenal: It shows them that they were already... Man, I just, just made this connection in my head. This is the parable of the wheat and of the tares- Yep ... coming to fruition- Exactly ... at the end of time. Right. Right? The sheep and the goats were allowed to mingle until the time came when they would be separated, just as the wheat and the tares were allowed to grow up until the time when they would be reaped and separated.

This is what's going on. The sheep did things that sheep do. Those on the right did the things that the people on the right would do because they were part of God's blessed kingdom all along.

[00:45:34] Jesse Schwamb: Right.

[00:45:35] Tony Arsenal: And then he goes on to explain what the people on the left did not do, not because now they've been put on the left because they didn't do it, but they were shown to have always been a part of that, part of that population.

They were always goats because of these things. This shows that they were goats all along, and they did these things or failed to do these things because they were goats all along.

[00:45:58] Jesse Schwamb: That's right.

[00:45:59] Works Righteousness Trap

[00:45:59] Jesse Schwamb: Let me read another verse. "For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children and also our brethren to believe in Christ and to be reconciled to God.

For we know that it is by grace that we are saved after all we can do." My guess is everybody was with me- ... sounded kind of okay until that last part. And if you had that, like, as we say, like, that theological muscle memory that just made you flex or bristle there, or you had the Spidey Sense, as you say, Tony, good, because that's from 2 Nephi 25:23 from the Book of Mormon.

And here's what I wanna say that's shocking, is if we read this passage of scripture that we're talking about as if there's something there that we need to do that proves that we've done enough and that somehow God will be pleased with that, even at the end of time in some small way, some modicum, then we're actually acting way more like Mormons than we are like Christians.

That's just the bottom line. Yeah. Because Mormons, if you ask about this verse, rather than try to qualify that last statement by saying, "Well, that's misunderstood," or, "It's really not after all you can do," because of course it begs the question how do you know that you've done enough? How you don't- you've done all the things and that you're, you're exhausted.

Their explanation of this is to double down on it and say, "Well, the context of that verse is following verse 23 actually does emphasize salvation only coming through Christ, but it also encourages continued observance of the law of Moses in order to be reconciled to God." Because that's all they could do until Christ fulfilled the law through his atonement.

Even that is nonsense. So all of this to say, we have to be careful with this because I, I think you're right. We're aligning, we're running right up on this, and that is I would submit to you that we just get distracted because we always, of course, want to bring something to the party here. The, the salvation cake.

We wanna, I don't know, we wanna make it, we wanna do. But God is doing all the things on our behalf. And so as a result of that, I think this parable is actually, it's about the divine prerogative and the agency of Christ in judgment at the end which belongs to him and him alone, and not about these actions.

But we get caught up in the actions and we're missing this thri- divine prerogative. I also think that Christ gives this to us to reverse it on us and to show us that he sets about all things. It is in fact his foreordination and his providence. By grace we have been saved through faith, and that in providence being predestined is an act of his great love.

And so this shows the extent of that love because those whom he has chosen himself are asking in disbelief as if to say, "When did I do the good works that you required?" And he said, "Well, you didn't because you could never do them apart from me."

[00:48:38] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.

[00:48:38] Jesse Schwamb: And so really that's the whole point. It's just so easy for us to get it twisted and say, "Well, doesn't it make sense that there are two groups?"

Well, certainly there are in this passage. And doesn't it make good sense that because he said they did things or they didn't do things, then I just need to be about doing those things. And I think that is unfortunately the adventure in missing the point in this passage.

[00:48:58] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah, I, I agree 100%. And it's funny 'cause you were reading that and I was like What translation of J- of First John is it?

It sound, I mean, it sounds like, it sounds like something you'd read in First John It sounds okay

[00:49:09] Jesse Schwamb: until

[00:49:10] Tony Arsenal: the end. Yeah. No, I mean, like, it literally sounds like First John until- Yeah ... you get to that last part.

[00:49:14] Jesse Schwamb: Yes.

[00:49:15] Tony Arsenal: And, and I think you're right that, um, we'll, we'll explore this more next week, but what has always struck me about this passage is that the, the p- the, the people on His right, I've gotta stop saying sheep, because that's...

I just made the point that that's not really what's going on. The people on His right who are called into the kingdom because it was prepared for them before the foundation, because they were elected unto that kingdom. The people on His right, they're surprised at the fact that they did these things.

And it, I, I think the works righteousness way of reading this is like, "You better earn your salvation. You better get at it because if you haven't fed Jesus in disguise, then you just aren't gonna make it. At the end of the day- Mm ... He's gonna say, 'I never knew you.'" And it, whether intentionally or unintentionally, sometimes I think intentionally, it implies that we, uh, that Jesus comes to know us because we've done good works, right?

When we say, "If you don't do these things, then Jesus will say, 'I never knew you,'" then what you're saying is Jesus doesn't know you apart from your good works. Right. And what the Bible says, what this passage says, just right on the face of it, is that the Kingdom of Heaven was prepared for those whom Christ has elected before the foundation of the world, or who the Father has elected, who are blessed by the Father before the foundation of the world.

Now, obviously the Father had to know those people in some sense-

[00:50:43] Jesse Schwamb: That's

[00:50:43] Tony Arsenal: right ... before the foundation of the world in order for them to be blessed by Him and for Him to prepare a kingdom. So then to come back to the end of it and say, "Well, there are some of those, uh, who the Father never knew because they didn't do enough work," well, the problem is that those who did the good work, the Father knew before they did the good works.

They didn't merit the good works. I mean- Right ... it's funny you, you bring up the, the Mormons, and that's certainly true, but, like, you could substitute in, at least on this regard, right? There are meaningful, important differences between the groups I'm about to say and Mormons, that would be the dividing line between those who are possibly saved and those who are y- definitely not saved, right?

You could substitute Arminians, who wanna say God looks down the corridor of time, and the reason He prepared a kingdom in advance for them from the foundation of the world is 'cause He saw that they would do these things that would merit salvation, or He saw that they would make the proper decision to receive His grace, right?

Or Roman Catholics or Eastern Orthodoxes in a different sense, but similarly who would say like, "Well, yeah, God knows in advance that you're gonna merit salvation, so He prepared- Right ... this kingdom anticipating your merit that you would contribute or your participation or, or whatever." I think in a certain sense, um, you could even apply this to some Lutheran theology, right?

Which would say, like, "Well, God prepared this kingdom for you from the foundation of the world because he looked down the corridor of time and he understood that you were not going to resist the grace he gave," right? You were not gonna reject his grace. Um, it really truly only is Reformed theology that can say, "No, God prepared this kingdom in advance for you, and it was the preparation of that kingdom that brought you through this such that you did the good works that you did, such that you made the wise decision to follow Christ that you did.

That is caused by the fact that God prepared a kingdom for you in advance, not that you somehow caused this kingdom to be prepared for you." A- and aga- again, again, like, this is dicey. It gets into, like, logical ordering, but fundamentally, a- as far as I can understand it, every competing view besides sort of a Calvinistic understanding of predestination election has to say that in some sense God prepares the kingdom for you as a response to something you have done, or chose- Right

to do or chose not to do. The reality is that this passage is saying, "No To those who are on the right. He didn't separate them based on the fact that they did these things. He just said, "You are on the right, and now to those who are on the right, I say to you, come into the kingdom that is blessed. You're blessed by my Father.

Come into this kingdom prepared from the foundation of the world." So I think, you know, we're coming up on time here.

[00:53:19] Faith That Works

[00:53:19] Tony Arsenal: We will get into what exactly the sheep do, what the sheep look, look like, and what the, the goats look like and what they didn't do. We'll get into that 'cause it's, it's relevant, right? This is, this is in some senses a diagnostic parable more than it is a way to get to heaven parable.

It's more about understanding where are you in this? What- Exactly ... what is it that your life reflects? What evidences are you going to bear, uh, that will, uh, will classify you, not cause your classification, right? This is like, uh, when you're trying to identify animals, and you're not... Like, I look at this bird and go, "Oh, it's got a short, stubby beak and it's triangular, so it's a finch," versus like a long, pointed beak being more like a sparrow or something like that.

Like, it's not the beak that makes it the sparrow, it's the sparrow that makes it the kind of beak it is. That's the kind of classification we're talking about in this parable.

[00:54:11] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. Again, I'm gonna just pull us all the way back to that outstanding description I gave earlier of that Drake meme because- ... I, I think you could do this two panel by saying one is, the first one would be, like, works righteousness, which by the way wears lots of masks.

That's part of the problem is it always wants to slip in. We want it to slip in, honestly. That would be our default position. And the second panel, the one of agreement would be, and welcoming, would be a faith that works.

[00:54:35] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.

[00:54:36] Jesse Schwamb: And those are very different things. But Mormonism, Catholicism, in some ways, like all, all of us have the same root, which is very dangerous, and that is we want to be responsible for some part of our own salvation.

We desperately want it. I want it, too, and that's the problem, is what's so scandalous about the gospel is that we entrust everything over to God, that we take Him at His word and His promises, that He does this great work. So when this begins with the word inherit- That language is so overwhelmingly strong because it's describing children who have been brought into a family- Yeah

who have no ability to bring themselves into or underneath the lordship of a particular parent because they are children. This is not how childhood works. This is not how raising kids, having kids born into a family works. So it's not wages earned. And I think we'll probably have so much more to say about that, but that, that is a critical point, and we ought to be very careful of anything that slips in some kind of workedness, something that we do, so that even makes us feel better to say, like, what was mostly God, but here I am.

Even these kinds of things, and we can be careful with our language, where we say we want to come before the Lord with, you know, raise ourselves to the place of the deserving poor or come with open or empty hands to receive him. E- even all of this, all the power that we have ourselves is a gift from God.

That power ultimately is his power manifest in us, not our power on display. And of course, that is... There's also another version of this that I've heard kind of promulgated where it's very Roman Catholic, where it's this idea of, well, if, I'm not saying that God doesn't have a play, a part to play, but what if what we need is just to get ourselves into a place where God can infuse us with that grace or that good work?

[00:56:15] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.

[00:56:16] Jesse Schwamb: And then we see that carried out. That too, loved ones, is a, a long adventure in missing the point. The best freedom is the one that turns over all things to God and takes him at his word when he says, "In love you were predestined to inherit this as sons and daughters of the kingdom," so that he does all the work, because we do not want to have any of that work our own.

[00:56:39] Courtroom Mercy Gospel

[00:56:39] Jesse Schwamb: When it comes to- Yeah ... actually being able... In other words, you do not wanna stand in this eschatological judgment and try, if, if you could, to say, "No, I did enough." Because God has two courtrooms. One is the judicial one, and one is one of mercy. And in, in the courtroom of justice, uh, we are all disgusting before Him, as it were.

We all deserve the punishment that is due us. That, that is the courtroom you must walk, except for and by the mercy of Christ, whom God can look on His Son, whom with He is well pleased, and say through that passive and active obedience that it has been paid in full. All the things have been done. All the obedience has been taken care of.

And so you're not just granted amnesty, but you're given the full- Yeah ... and righteous account of Christ. That is what it means then to pass as the righteous one into eternal life. So-

[00:57:26] Tony Arsenal: Yeah ...

[00:57:26] Jesse Schwamb: there's so much here. I'm totally with you, Tony. I was just speaking with a dear brother a couple weeks ago at the end of a service on the Lord's Day, and we somehow got to this topic, and we were speaking, of course, in these grand terms as Christians do when they get excited about trying to explain the gospel.

And we were speaking about this vast chasm and how, again, God does all the things. And we were kind of remarking, like, how, how funny it would be and how true it is of all of our natures that if you would imagine for some reason in this thought experiment that that sin was, as it's been often portrayed, this grand chasm between two points, and God had built this bridge spanning some distance, some immeasurable, incredible distance, and let's say, like, the last four feet were just unbridged.

If it were like that and we came to that edge and we said, "I jumped across," guess what we would boast in? The last four feet, right? And not everything- Right ... else that God had done. So He takes this away from us- Yeah ... in His kindness, because what is replaced in the goodness of Him removing everything from us and setting us in the low place is to have the humility to come before Him and to realize that in our emptiness He gives us all the things, and He gives it to us regardless of whether or not we're capable or willing or even able to receive them.

He gives it to us so that we might inherit as sons and daughters eternal life. So I hope that in- instead of really binding Christians up in an individualistic way, that our conversations in the next couple weeks as we go through this will really bring about a lot of freedom, because it's, it's for freedom that Christ has set us free.

And there's a lot of freedom I see in this passage.

[00:59:00] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.

[00:59:01] Wrap Up Next Week

[00:59:01] Tony Arsenal: Well, Jesse, I know normally we do a bunch of, like, housekeeping announcements and tell you- No housekeeping ... join the Telegram chat and tell us- You guys know ... support us on Patreon and all that fun stuff. Yeah. You guys know all the things, and I'm sure we'll talk about it again.

Uh, I, I just wanna round this out. Uh, um, best podcasters ever. You can tell we're t- really trying to make a lot of money off this podcast. We're like, "Yeah, we got all this stuff." Da, da. Um, what, what I love about this, uh, this passage is it does reorient us. Um, and, and we'll talk more about specifically how it reorient us- reorients us next week.

Um, but it does. This is a parable that is intended, or is a teaching that is intended to take our eyes off of our own, our own works, our own measuring or self-assessment, uh, and really think about, one, what is it that, that is salvation? Like, what is salvation about? How does it come to us? But then also, what should I be doing, right?

It's this, it's this dynamic that happens in a lot of the New Testament between the fact that, like, our good works do not, in any sense, merit us salvation. Right. But at the same time, we're expected to do them, and they're important, and they're valuable, and they mark us as Christians. They mark us as God's followers.

So we will get into all of that next week. I'm very excited about it. Uh, so please do come back and join us again. Like, you know how to find the Telegram chat. You know how to find all that other stuff. But what we would love for you to do is to come back next week. Thank-

Conversation happening in our community about this so Jesse, I'm super excited and until next time, honor everyone

[01:00:46] Jesse Schwamb: Love the brotherhood.

In this episode of The Reformed Brotherhood, Tony Arsenal walks through Jonah 1–2, focusing on the remarkable prayer Jonah offers from the belly of the great fish. Far from a simple morality tale, the Book of Jonah presents a complex, deeply theological portrait of a disobedient prophet who nonetheless clings to the Lord in his darkest moment. Tony explores the Hebrew literary features that shape how we read Jonah's prayer, the doctrine of divine sovereignty as it operates through human agency, and the rich typological connections between Jonah and the death and resurrection of Christ. Most importantly, the episode grounds Jonah's experience in the Westminster Confession's teaching on sanctification — offering genuine hope to believers who feel buried under besetting sin, assuring them that salvation, from beginning to end, belongs entirely to the Lord.

Key Takeaways

• Jonah is not the hero of his own story — he functions more as an anti-hero whose failures actually make him a more useful and relatable example for ordinary believers.
• Divine sovereignty operates through, not apart from, human agency — the sailors freely threw Jonah overboard, and yet Jonah rightly says God cast him into the deep; both are simultaneously true.
• The sequence debate in Jonah 2 matters theologically — whether Jonah prayed before or after being swallowed affects how we read the book; reading it as a strict cause-and-effect sequence risks turning the gospel into a quid pro quo transaction with God.
• Jonah's "yet I will see your holy temple" is a confession of eschatological faith — in the midst of near-certain death, Jonah expresses confidence not merely in earthly rescue, but in his ultimate destiny as one of God's people.
• The deep is a Genesis image — Jonah's descent into the primordial waters deliberately echoes the formless void of Genesis 1 and the undoing of creation in the flood, placing his experience within the grand arc of biblical cosmology.
• Jonah is a prophetic type of Christ's death and resurrection — his three days in the belly of the fish, his descent into the pit, and his emergence onto dry land anticipate and foreshadow the resurrection, as Jesus himself confirms in Matthew 12.
• Sanctification is real but imperfect — drawing from Westminster Confession Chapter 13, Tony argues that the up-and-down nature of Jonah's spiritual life is not an aberration but a description of the normal Christian life, in which the flesh and spirit remain in perpetual war until glory.

Key Concepts Eschatological Faith in the Pit

One of the most striking moments in Jonah's prayer is his declaration in 2:4 — "Yet I shall again look upon your holy temple." Tony argues that this is not merely a hope of physical rescue and a return to Jerusalem. Jonah believed he was dying. The waters had closed in to take his life; he was being dragged into underwater trenches that the ancient Semitic mind associated with the very gates of Sheol. In this context, Jonah's declaration is better understood as eschatological faith — a confession that even if God takes his life in judgment, he will still see the Lord face to face in the heavenly temple. It mirrors Job's cry, "Yet in my flesh I shall see God," and anticipates the kind of faith that says, with the father in Mark 9, "Lord, I believe; help my unbelief."

Sovereignty and Human Agency Working Together

Tony uses Jonah's descent as a teaching moment on the Reformed doctrine of concurrence — the truth that God's sovereign decree and human free will are not in competition but operate simultaneously on different levels. The sailors made a free, agonized decision to throw Jonah overboard; and yet Jonah rightly attributes his casting into the sea to God himself. Tony draws the parallel to Joseph's words to his brothers in Genesis 50: "You meant evil against me, but God meant it for good." This is not a philosophical sleight of hand. It is the consistent testimony of Scripture that God governs all things — including the underwater currents that dragged Jonah to the ocean floor — without reducing human beings to puppets or eliminating their moral responsibility.

Sanctification Is Real, Imperfect, and Guaranteed

Perhaps the most pastorally significant thread of the episode is Tony's application of Westminster Confession Chapter 13 to Jonah's experience. Jonah makes genuine progress in faith — his prayer is theologically rich and demonstrates real trust in God — and yet he almost immediately slips back behind the curve, making vows the sailors had already made before him, and later in chapter 4, sulking over a dead plant. Tony refuses to read this as a failure of the text. Instead, it is the text faithfully portraying the reality of sanctification: real throughout the whole person, yet imperfect in this life, with an irreconcilable war between flesh and spirit. The hope is not that we will finally overcome that war on our own, but that through the continual supply of the sanctifying Spirit of Christ, the regenerate part will overcome. Salvation — including sanctification — belongs entirely to the Lord.

Memorable Quotes

Jonah is constantly behind the curve, but for this little moment, for this glimpse in the very center of the book, the pinnacle of the book is Jonah finally catching up to the sailors.

All outside visible indicators said he was going to die and he was going to hell. Yet he trusted in the Lord that he would see his holy temple again.

God redeems our life from the pit. From the very depths of hell itself, he snatched us like brands from the fire.

Full Transcript

[00:00:08] Tony Arsenal: Now the word of the Lord came to Jonah the son of Amittai, saying, "Arise, go to Nineveh, that great city, and call out against it. For their evil has come up before me." But Jonah rose to flee to Tarshish from the presence of the Lord. He went down to Joppa and found a ship going to Tarshish.

So he paid the fare and went down into it, to go with them to Tarshish, away from the presence of the Lord.

[00:01:24] Storm and Sailors

[00:01:24] Tony Arsenal: But the Lord hurled a great wind upon the sea, and there was a mighty tempest on the sea, so that the ship threatened to break up. Then the mariners were afraid, and each cried out to his god. And they hurled the cargo that was in the ship into the sea to lighten it for them.

But Jonah had gone down into the inner part of the ship and had lain down and was fast asleep. So the captain came to him and said, "What do you mean, you sleeper? Arise, call out to your god. Perhaps the god will give us a thought that we may not perish." And they said to one another, "Come, let us cast lots, that we may know on whose account this evil has come upon us."

So they cast lots, and the lot fell on Jonah. Then they said to him, "Tell us on whose account this evil has come upon us. What is your occupation, and where do you come from? What is your country, and of what people are you?" And he said to them, "I am a Hebrew, and I fear the Lord, the God of heaven, who made the sea and the dry land."

Then the men were exceedingly afraid and said to him, "What is this that you have done?" For the men knew that he was fleeing from the presence of the Lord, because he had told them. Then they said to him, "What shall we do to you that the sea may quiet down for us?" For the sea grew more and more tempestuous.

[00:02:36] Cast Into Sea

[00:02:36] Tony Arsenal: He said to them, "Pick me up and hurl me into the sea. Then the sea will quiet down for you. For I know it is because of me that this great tempest has come upon you." Nevertheless, the men rowed hard to get back to the dry land, but they could not, for the sea grew more and more tempestuous against them.

Therefore they called out to the Lord, "O Lord, let us not perish for this man's life, and lay not on us innocent blood. For you, O Lord, has done as it pleased you." So they picked up Jonah and hurled him into the sea. And the sea ceased from its raging. Then the men feared the Lord exceedingly, and they offered a sacrifice to the Lord and made vows.

[00:03:15] Fish and Prayer

[00:03:15] Tony Arsenal: And the Lord appointed a great fish to swallow up Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights. Then Jonah prayed to the Lord his God from the belly of the fish, saying, "I called out to the Lord out of my distress, and he answered me. Out of the belly of Sheol I cried, and you heard my voice.

For you cast me into the dep-- into the deep, into the heart of the seas, and the flood surrounded me. All your waves and billows passed over me." Then he said, "I am driven away from your sight. Yet I shall look again upon your holy temple. The waters closed in over me to take my life. The deep surrounded me.

Weeds were wrapped around my head." At the root of the mountain I went to the land, whose bars closed upon me forever. Yet you brought my life up from the pit, O Lord my God. When I-- when my life was fainting away, I remembered the Lord, and my prayer came to you into your holy temple. Those who pay regard to vain idols forsake their hope of steadfast love.

But I, with a voice of thanksgiving, will sacrifice to you. What I have vowed I will pay. Salvation belongs to the Lord.

[00:04:23] Jonah Not the Hero

[00:04:23] Tony Arsenal: And the Lord spoke to the fish, and it vomited Jonah out upon the dry land Jonah is an interesting book because, as I commented a year ago, Jonah is not necessarily the hero of the story.

Uh, if anything, he is kind of the villain in, in some senses. But nevertheless, I think as we'll see today, Jonah still gives us a good example to follow in a sense, and that I think is really the centerpiece of this prayer, is that even as Jonah's going through all of this, his prayer is still remarkably filled with faithful sayings and trust in the Lord.

We learned early on in Jonah that Jonah was a prophet during the time of the kings. Uh, he, uh, he seemed to have been a sort of a court temple. He was in the presence of the kings in Jerusalem itself, and he received a calling from the word of the Lord, and this phrase, "the word of the Lord," seems to imply a pre-incarnate, uh, visible manifestation of the second person of the Trinity.

So we're not just talking about a, a disembodied voice. We're not just talking about some sort of sense or impression, but the word of the Lord itself, himself, came to give Jonah this mission, to give Jonah this task, to commission him as a prophet to Nineveh. And Jonah gets up and says, "No, thank you," and he goes the opposite direction.

We see in that first section there the repeated phrase, "He goes to Tarshish. He boards a ship in Tarshish." The author here, who we, we think is Jonah, is hammering that he did not go where he was supposed to. He went the opposite direction. He went to Tarshish instead of Nineveh, which is 180 degrees the other direction from, uh, from Nineveh on the map.

And he boards the, he boards the ship in order to flee the presence of the Lord. He pays, probably buys out the entire ship itself. He pays the fare for the whole ship, and the Lord hurls a great wave, uses the language of weapons. He hurls this storm like a spear. He weaponizes nature itself to correct and chastise and judge Jonah for his disobedience We get to verses seven through 17, and everyone on the boat is crying out to their chosen deity except Jonah.

Jonah is asleep in the hold of the ship, oblivious to everything, totally dead to the world and dead to his Lord. The sailors begin to seek divine li- divine wisdom after they wake Jonah. He comes to the deck of the ship, and they cast lots to identify by divine, uh, revelation, sort of a strange practice in the Old Testament or the old, uh, world.

Divine revelation that shows them Jonah is the source of this wickedness that is being wrought upon them, at least their impression of it. So they ask Jonah, "Who are you? Tell us who it is that has caused this great calamity." And he says emphatically, "A Hebrew am I." He identifies himself with God's people, and he says, "The Lord is my God, and he made the heaven and the earth and the sea."

There's no small amount of irony, and it explains why the sailors are so afraid when he says that God created the heavens where the storm was. He created the sea where they were about to die, and he created the dry land where they were trying to get to. And so this one phrase that Jonah uses almost casually demonstrates that the Lord has total and utter sovereignty over what is going on, which is a theme that we'll see come back again and again through the book The sailors say, "Well, what do we do about this?"

And Jonah says, "Throw me into the ocean, because I know that if you do so, then the storm will calm down and you will be saved." Whether he knew this because he's a prophet and it had been revealed to him, or whether he just was surmising that this was the case, we don't know. But the, uh, sailors are hesitant to do so, and we talked about how it was a little bit strange that these, uh, pagan sailors from cultures that d- had no qualms about human sacrifice were suddenly, uh, unwilling to throw Jonah over the sea a- as a, an appeasement offering to this Lord.

And we came to the conclusion that they had been regenerated. They had come to faith in this God who created the heavens and the sea and the dry ground. And so they knew intrinsically that this was wrong, that there was a moral imperative not to do this. So they tried to row back to the land. They jettisoned all of their, uh, all of their goods, all of their cargo.

They were making for land as best they could, and when it finally became clear that they couldn't do this, they sought the Lord's mercy in saying, essentially, "We don't understand how this is, but please don't put this man's blood on us, because you, Lord, have done as you please," right? The sovereignty of the Lord again comes to the forefront.

They finally cast Jonah into the sea, and this is, this is important. They cast Jonah into the sea, and then they worship, they vow vows, and they vow to sacrifice. They offer sacrifices. They seek the Lord, they acknowledge his s- his sovereignty, and they worship him with what they have left. And then rounding out the chapter, the Lord appoints a great fish to come and swallow up Jonah.

And we talked about how this, this swallowing of Jonah, although our popular children's books and VeggieTales and other stories we might read to our kids paints the fish often as the vehicle of judgment, it's actually a vehicle of deliverance for Jonah. There's this interesting grammatical feature that happens where in 1:17 the fish is masculine.

The, the, the gender of the word is masculine, and then when we get to 2:1 it switches over to the feminine, almost as if to indicate that the whale was pregnant with Jonah, that Jonah was in the whale and was about to be reborn into the world in a new way And that brings us to our passage here today.

[00:10:21] Sequence Debate

[00:10:21] Tony Arsenal: I'm gonna read, uh, 1:17 even though that's a little bit outside of our scope.

I'm gonna read it along with 2:1 to, to make the point here. It says, "The Lord appointed a great fish to swallow up Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of the whale, of the fish three days and three nights. Then Jonah prayed to the Lord his God from the belly of the fish." When you look at the Hebrew text, 1:17 is actually verse 2:1 and 2:1 is then 2:2 and so on and so forth.

In the original Hebrew mindset of how this book goes together, these two things were linked together, him being swallowed by the whale and being in the belly of the fish and then him praying was linked together in this sequence. There's a feature in the Hebrew that's called a vav consecutive. You don't need to remember that.

Nobody is gonna care about that. But it's, it's a little grammatical feature where it adds this little character to the front of the verb and it indicates a sequence. It's the narrative storytelling. When you look at Genesis 1 it's, "And then God said, 'Let there be light,' and then there was light." It tells you the sequence of events.

Sometimes it indicates that it is a strict sequence of events. This happened and then that finished and then the next thing happened and then that finished. And many of the commentators use this passage to justify a perspective of Jonah where Jonah is this rebellious, stubborn prophet who holds out his stubbornness until the very last minute.

He's swallowed by the whale, he's getting digested by stomach acid and he sort of finally relents to the Lord and cries out for deliverance and the Lord acquiesces in response to his prayer. That's certainly a possible interpretation. There's lots of good reasons in the, the text here to think Jonah was kind of a chucklehead and was not paying too much attention to what the Lord had for him The other option is to see this as a way for the author of the text to situate this prayer in contrast to other prayers that are not necessarily talked about directly in this text.

And I'm gonna take that later view here, and I think it's important. This makes good sense of the text, and we'll explain exactly why that is when we get to the next little section here. But it also protects us theologically if we understand it this way. Jonah is already a book, uh, as I've alluded to, that tends towards a sort of crass moralism or fabulism.

We tend to read it as sort of an allegory of if you do the wrong thing, God punishes you, and when you finally do the right thing, He blesses you. And there's a certain level of common grace wisdom to that approach, right? The whole book of Proverbs is-- are these proverbial sayings that if you do this, then the God-- then God will do this.

If you raise up your children in the way they will go, they will not depart when they are older. But we also learn in the Book of Job and the Book of Ecclesiastes that those proverbial sayings, although generally true, it's not a magic formula. And so we have this tendency to read Old Testament literature as though it was this sort of like equation, that God punishes us when we're bad.

He, uh, He relents from His punishment when we say we're sorry, and we have to be careful about that. If we understand what I'm about to teach from the next section here, that this is not a strict sequence of events, that Jonah began praying before he was swallowed by the whale, and this is simply recording the prayer that was actually within the whale.

It helps protect us from seeing Jonah in this sort of quid pro quo, this for that kind of thing. I think we should simply understand this as saying Jonah was in the water, he got swallowed by the whale, and then when he was in the whale, he prayed. It doesn't say anything about whether he was overly stubborn or whether his stubbornness held out.

It simply tells us that he was in the pray-- in the whale when this prayer occurred

[00:14:23] Sheol and Descent

[00:14:23] Tony Arsenal: He says in verse two, he calls out to the Lord out of his distress. He, and God answers him. Out of the belly of Sheol, Jonah cries, and God hears his voice This here tells us that he began praying, right? He was in the water, he was in the deep. All of this descriptive language we're gonna see later on about how deep he was, how quickly the current took him.

He was wrapped up in seaweed, his life was fading from him. It was in the midst of all of that that he cries out in his distress. It's a pretty distressing situation. And Jonah, like all of us would, like even most atheists would, cries out to the Lord, even just out of instinct. I think it's kind of crazy for us to think that this man who's now been cast overboard and is being swept to the bottom of the ocean is sure he's gonna die.

Somehow, he overrides all of his instinct and his entire life teaching and refuses to pray to the Lord. It just doesn't make sense, and it doesn't make sense of what the text presents here

Jonah was in the belly of Sheol. He was in the very, the very womb of Sheol. And there is this interesting contrast that he goes from the belly of Sheol into the belly of the whale. This phrase, the belly of Sheol, is probably roughly equivalent to our phrase about being at death's door, right? It, it may or may not come from some sort of Mesopotamian, um, mythology.

It may be a phrase of sort of co-opted into Hebrew, kinda like our phrase at death's door is actually co-opted in from Greek mythology, where there were actually literal doors to the underworld, and people would go there and when they were about to die. Jonah's point is that this was not a small thing.

When we watch VeggieTales, he gets thrown in the water, and, like, 13 seconds later, the, the whale comes up and takes him. Jonah was swept down into the water almost supernaturally quick. He was drawn down to the very bottom of the ocean. We talk about the miracle of him surviving in the whale, and it was miraculous for sure, but the miracle of him being swept to the bottom of the ocean and not being crushed by the weight of the water, by the pressure, is equally miraculous.

It's no more difficult for God to do that than it is for Him to preserve him in the whale or to raise Jesus from the dead or to create everything from nothing He finally starts to catch up with the pagan sailors. A theme in Jonah is that everyone around Jonah who shouldn't know any better somehow gets to the right conclusion before he does, right?

The sailors begin to worship the Lord. They recognize this is divine wrath while Jonah is still asleep in the hold. Later, we'll see that, uh, the, the Ninevites recognize God's mercy and grace and thank Him for it, and Jonah is still mad because the plant he was sitting on d- uh, dies, right? Jonah is constantly behind the curve, but for this little moment, for this glimpse in the very center of the book, the pinnacle of the book is Jonah finally catching up to the sailors.

[00:17:34] Sovereignty Explained

[00:17:34] Tony Arsenal: He recognizes that it was God who cast him into the depths. This teaches us something about the doctrine of sovereignty and how it relates to human freedom, right? We, we often ask the question, what, what causes rain? Well, you can answer that by saying tiny particles of dust collect water in the air, and once they have enough weight, they fall out of the sky 'cause the air can't hold them up anymore.

That's true, and it's good, and that's what nature teaches us. It's also equally true that God causes the rain to fall on the just and the unjust alike, and those two things are not contradictory. So when Jonah says, "You cast me into the sea," he's recognizing, like Joseph does in the Book of Genesis, that what the sailors in this case meant for good but what the brothers meant for evil, God purposed and caused for good.

What the sailors did by their own volition, their own free will, they exercised their own, uh, autonomy in the, the horizontal sense to cast Jonah into the sea, God also cast him into the sea

As I said, the text here uses language that we may not catch in our English translations to indicate that it's not just the sea here that's the problem. God's sovereignty continues to affect and act on Jonah. The word that we read here as the, the water or the flood, other places refers to the current of a river.

The, um, the Euphrates itself is sometimes referred to this, the large- sort of the largest river apart from the Nile that the Egyptian or the, um, Israelite mind would have is the Euphrates, right? This underwater river, this underwater current, the undertow sucks him to the bottom of the ocean. It's like if you're swimming at the beach at the ocean and you get caught in the undercurrent.

There's not a lot you can do about it. Y- sometimes even the strongest swimmers can't overcome this, and Jonah in all of his Middle Eastern robes, all of this stuff, probably with all of his baggage, his, his own equipment, things he had on him, is caught in this undercurrent that sucks him to the bottom of the ocean.

And it's not just below the surface of the water. He's dropped down into the heart of the sea, the very core. We're seeing this language of him being pulled to the depths. In, in chapter one he goes down, down, down, and now he's being drawn into the belly of the ocean, into the pit of Sheol, into the heart of the waters

The picture here is that Jonah doesn't just get thrown in the water and sink. He is actively pulled down to the bottom. This is not just a judgment where perhaps he can swim to the top. Just as the mariners hopelessly tried to reach land, Jonah would've been hopelessly trying to swim against this. We don't actually have any indication he tried, but had he tried, there would've been no chance

He goes on to say that the God's breakers and his waves roll him. This is the picture we see if you ever watch surfing competitions on the ocean, where a surfer will get hit by the wave and he just gets rolled over and rolled over and rolled over, and it can be incredibly dangerous. That's why they have like the little lifeguards on the jet skis that zip out there to get them.

Because when you get caught in that breaker, you just get rolled over and rolled over and rolled over, and soon you lose track of which direction is up, and even if you did, you couldn't get out

This process is not just the forces of nature doing what they do. This is, again, the Lord weaponizing the forces of nature to execute judgment on Jonah This tumultuous and supernatural rapid descent showed Jonah that this is not only the moment in which God wanted to take his life, but was actively casting him away from the g- from the presence of the Lord

[00:21:47] Yet I Will See

[00:21:47] Tony Arsenal: It says here, um, in verse four, Jonah says, "I am driven away from your sight If you do a word study on this, you start to see that Jonah is pulling language from the creation account. He's pulling language from the fall. He's pulling a lot of language from Genesis itself. He's also pulling from the Psalms, which are pulling from the Genesis account.

This word driven away could also be tran- translated as banished. He's cast out of the presence of the Lord. Just as in Genesis 3, we read, "God drove the man out at the east of the Garden of Eden. He placed cherubim and flaming swords." He drove the man out. Genesis 4:14, Cain says, "You have driven me away from the ground."

And in Jonah 1:3, we see that Jonah was trying to get away from the presence of the Lord. And I wonder if there was this moment where he goes, "Ooh, I guess I got what I was looking for."

Now, the second half of Jonah f- 2:4 here does something a little bit weird, and it's hard to translate. I think we should be honest at times. Hebrew is a language that in some senses is mysterious to us at times. There are still parts of the Hebrew Bible that we're not always 100% sure of. This verse here could be translated...

In, in Hebrew it's just a statement. It's, "I, um, I shall again see the holy temple, or your holy temple." How that fits into the text itself is tricky. Some read it as, uh, as a question. "How shall I see your holy temple?" It's actually a statement kind of reaffirming the doubt and the fear and the idea that God was banishing him Most translations translate it as sort of a contrast.

He says, "I was driven away from your sight, yet I shall again look on your holy temple." The force of this is even though you're driving me away, even though you're casting me out of your presence, I have faith, I have confidence that I will again see your holy temple

The question here, and this is where I think Jonah becomes our example It's certainly possible that Jonah was asserting his belief that he would be rescued from this calamity and he would make his way back to Jerusalem and he would return to the holy temple. I think that what he says in the rest of this, he's recounting what he was praying.

What he was praying in this context is not that he would return to the temple. He was confident God was taking his life. He says in verse five, "The waters closed in over me to take my life. The deep surrounded me. Weeds were wrapped around my head." The other way that the phrase holy temple is used in the Old Testament is to refer to the place that God lives in heaven.

Jonah was asserting faith that even though he was being cast out of the presence of the Lord in this life, even though he was being justly punished for his sin, even though he was about to enter the belly of Sheol and to enter the pit, the very abyss, that he would see God again in His holy temple. This is a statement of Jonah's belief in his own destiny as one of God's people, destined to be saved by faith in God.

In this moment, Jonah trusts the Lord despite all of the appearances that God was out to get him

It's not all that different than when we read in Mark chapter 9, where this father brings his, uh, demon-possessed child to Jesus, and Jesus says, "I can heal him." And he says, "If you can do anything, Lord," I'm paraphrasing here. He says, "If you can do it, please, Lord." And he says, "If? All things are possible for me."

And the father desperately cries out, "Lord, I believe. Help my unbelief." It's this raw, unfiltered statement of just the human condition on this side of glory, right? I believe in the Lord, but there's always that little part in the back of my head that isn't sure, because we're never going to be perfect.

Now, I've said before, and, and this is becoming my new catchphrase, I think, I'm not here to rob you of your assurance of faith. Our, our confession, the Bible, this church, our Reform, broader Reform tradition, the assurance of faith of the Christian is the rightful possession inheritance of every person in this room who trusts the Lord.

But it is a reality that at times that assurance is shaken. And if there's ever a time for your assurance to be shaken, it's when you're being dragged to the bottom of the ocean, right? One of the words in here, I don't have it-- I don't actually have it in my notes for some reason, but one of the note, words here, uh, s- about the roots of the mountain, I believe, in the next verse.

It's not just that he was dragged to the bottom of the ocean. This word root of the mountain is like the word that's used to cut. He's not just being dragged to the bottom of the sea, he's being dragged to the bottom of a deep sea crevasse. He's literally being pulled into the pit, right? Many, uh, in the ancient Semitic world would have seen these underwater pits.

They would have theorized or thought about these underwater crevasses as the actual entry into Sheol. And Jonah sees himself being drawn down into these things. Yet, he believes he will see the good presence of the Lord We read a similar statement, I won't, uh, I won't make us go there for time. We read a similar statement in Job.

Job goes through this long speech about all the things that God has done to him, and at the very end of it, he says, "Yet I will see the Lord with my eyes, and he will stand up next to me on, on the earth." Right? Even though Job was going through this unimaginable grief, and we know that Job didn't deserve it in the strict sense, he still was saying, "I'm gonna be destroyed.

God is shooting arrows at me," right? "His sword is in my side. He's targeting me. He's sending hornets after me." All of these terrible, vibrant images that he's using to show what God is doing to him, and yet he still trusts. I would say that he trusts that he would see the Lord in the flesh. This is not only Jonah's faith, it's a-- or Job's faith, it's a prophecy of Christ This is alien to our modern mindset.

We've been talking about this in the Psalms. Weston's been leading us through the, the lament Psalms We often think that suffering and trials and difficulties are the opposite of blessing and favor. And we might recognize that in some sort of way that in God's economy, one thing leads to another. And again, there's an element of truth to that.

James says, "Count it all joy when you face trials of every kind." He's not saying that the trials you're facing are in themselves joyful. You don't have to love when you get sick. You don't have to, you don't have to man up and put a smile on or s- pull yourself up by your bootstraps or whatever analogy you wanna use.

It's okay to be sad when bad things happen. It's actually good, right? If we're to weep with those who weep, there's an element of sadness that must come with that, not to mention the one who's weeping is not chastised. But the idea that that only leads to this, that that's just one step in the chain, that's not really the mindset the Bible has.

All across the Psalms, in the lament Psalms, all across the prophetic literature, the Book of Lamentations, Habakkuk has this long prayer at the end that's very similar, the entire Book of Job, suffering and sanctification, trials and joy and restoration, they're all sandwiched right there, and there is usually this statement in the middle of it that God will do what is right This is Jonah's example for us, and what an example it is.

We'll talk in a little bit about all the ways that this whole scenario is typological of Christ. We'll, we'll get to that. But just for a minute in the middle of this book, Jonah is not such a bad guy. And it's because he still has all his faults that he can be this example for us

[00:30:26] Genesis Deep Imagery

[00:30:26] Tony Arsenal: As though it wasn't clear enough, Jonah in verse five says that the purpose of the waters closing over him was explicitly to take his life. He's now in the belly of the sea. He's being dragged down to the very roots of the mountain, to the very core of the earth in his mind. He, he thinks he's going to hell in the, the Hebrew mind.

There's both this idea that God is dragging him to hell in a very real sense. The Hebrew mind, Sheol was a physical place that people went to, and we learn more about it and that becomes clarified as revelation is progressive, not contradictory, but as, as it's clarified But he uses this word deep, and this is where he's drawing again from Genesis.

Genesis 1:2, he says, "The earth was without form and void. The darkness was over the face of the deep." The deep is this sort of like unformed chaotic water. It's what exists before God makes everything orderly and good. And in the fall, and especially in the flood in chapter seven, uh, chapter seven verse 11, the f- the flood itself is a sort of undoing of the order.

God opens the floods from beneath, from the bottom of the earth, from the wellspring of the deep, as well as the chaotic waters from outside the firmament, and it all pours back in together and the entire world becomes again this deep, primordial, chaotic water

And just as in Genesis God separates the land, in, in Genesis 7 or in Genesis 8, he separates out the land by drying it up, drying up the water. We also see that Jonah has this trust that he will return to the dry land. Again, he's the God of heaven and sea and dry earth. We could even read this phrase, depending on the context, as the abyss, which is this, a- again, is some borrowed language from Greek here that the Hebrews use.

But it's this deep, watery, murky place th- full of shadows and darkness. Sounds familiar, I think, right? Christ says that those who are apart from him who refuse to obey will be cast into the outer darkness. This is the imagery that Jonah is seeing. All outside visible indicators was that he was gonna die and he was going to hell.

Yet he trusted in the Lord that he would see his holy temple again Apart from God's gracious intervention, Jonah was right. So although God is the one that's bringing him to the depth, bringing him to the pit, dragging him down, using the very currents of the sea, weaponizing these underwater currents that only thousands of years later do we understand, and even then only this much, he also graciously rescues him from this by miraculously appointing a whale or a great fish who comes and swallows Jonah, takes him whole, and keeps him there in his own belly, keeps him there in her own womb when we get to chapter 2.

In chapter six, or in verse six, Jonah makes this pivot. Again, he says he's brought to the very bottom of the sea, to the roots of the mountain, which is these deep underwater trenches. He conceptualizes himself now in this locked city behind bars. Again, this jail imagery, this pit imagery, it's all meant to evoke this idea of the final punishment of the wicked.

This place of murky, gross water, this place of darkness and, uh, limitations of freedom, he's being taken there. This is the section here where people would actually argue that Jonah dies. He actually dies and is resurrected when he's swallowed by the whale. This comes from language where it says God does not prevent him from going to the pit.

God actually draws him to the pit and then raises his life up from the pit. Now, I'm not convinced, um, that we should think that Jonah actually died. I don't, I don't think that the text fully supports that. But it certainly is using this imagery

[00:34:45] Christ Typology

[00:34:45] Tony Arsenal: This is where we get to some typology about Christ. This is where Jonah really shines as a prophet. Sometimes people wonder why the Book of Jonah is considered a prophetic book, and this along with it is part of that. Jonah, although the sign of Jonah in Matthew and in the other Gospels refers to the belly of the whale, that just as Jonah was in the belly of the whale for three days and three nights, so also Christ will be in the heart of the earth, the pit, for three days and three nights.

When we're talking about typology, we can't get too tripped up on the details. We're not talking about strict allegory where this figure is that person and this signpost represents that thing. This isn't Pilgrim's Progress or Chronicles of Narnia, which is not allegory, but it's similar. Topology functions often on sort of these big picture concepts, right?

Although there are some typological references that are super detailed, there are also some that are just sort of evocative

The idea that Jonah died and was raised to life and sort of incubated in the earth, in- incubated in the whale and sort of reborn into the world, that certainly sounds a lot like a picture of the resurrection And I think we should see it that way. When Christ says that the sign of Jonah is roughly His resurrection, He is tying it to the three days and three nights, but He's not limiting to that

Jonah comes to this pivot, and now he starts to reflect on the context of his deliverance. This whole s- this whole prayer should be seen sort of in the light of the thanksgiving psalms. There's a situation in which Jonah is in, and then God rescues him, and he begins to praise him for it. There's elements of lament, but it's really a thanksgiving psalm that he's drawing on here or that he's, he's writing In 2:7, Jonah is either dead or he's actively dying.

I don't know about you, but if you've ever, uh, dove into a pool and got a little deeper than you thought you were, and you-- there's that, like, two seconds before you get to the top where you're sure the lights are going out and you've really only been underwater for, like, 45 seconds, but everything in you tells you if you don't get there, you're gonna die.

Every instinct you have is to scramble for the surface. Think about how long it took Jonah to be dragged to the bottom of the ocean. Even at this accelerated pace, we're talking about a long time. And we have no reason to believe, and lots of reasons to think otherwise, Jonah was not preserved from the pain and the terror and the difficulty of feeling like you're drowning because he was drowning.

He was without oxygen. His life was fading away. And it is in this context of him being on the brink of death, at death's door, in the belly of Sheol, being drawn into the very pit itself, that his prayer reaches the Lord in His holy temple. Right? This gives further evidence to the thought that Jonah is not talking about the temple in Jerusalem.

There was, there was theology, and I, I think it's fine theology, that God lived in the temple in a special way. This is the reason that Daniel faces Jerusalem when he prays. There is a sense in the Old Testament that God's special place of presence is the temple in Jerusalem, and that the prayers of the people physically go to that place to be received by God.

But Jonah doesn't know which direction the temple is. He's underwater. He's been tossed around by breakers. He has no sense of geography at this point He knows that his prayers are reaching the Lord in his heavenly temple. And they reach him in his heavenly temple just as his life is being lost in the pit.

And it is from this moment that God raises him to life, or preserves his life, depending how you read it, and appoints the well to come reach him And some read this next verse as a little bit of a step back for Jonah, and it may be.

[00:39:02] Vows and Idols

[00:39:02] Tony Arsenal: He reads, "Those who pay vain regard to i- regard to vain idols forsake their hope of steadfast love.

But I, with the voice of thanksgiving, will sacrifice to you. And what I have vowed I will pay. Salvation belongs to the Lord." Jonah didn't see the sailors on the ship vow their vows and offer their sacrifices. That happened after they threw him into the pit and the current sucked him under So we may read this with a little bit of a, "Thank God I'm not like that tax collector," kind of a lens.

And there's probably some wisdom for us in that, to recognize that Jonah still hasn't quite gotten there. But it's also very common in the Old Testament to recognize that God treats His people differently because they are different. God brings people to a place of sanctification, and through that process of sanctification, they cease to worship vain idols.

And it is absolutely true that those who worship vain idols forfeit their hope of steadfast love from the Lord. That's straight out of the Ten Commandments, right? He visits the iniquity of, specifically of idolatry. He visits the iniquity unto the children to the third and fourth generation. But for those who love the Lord, He loves them with a steadfast love unto thousands

We can recognize in Jonah that although he had made great progress in faith, that he still wasn't there yet. And we can recognize that in him because we can recognize that in ourselves. Jonah is the example in this because he is not perfect, because he has not arrived, 'cause he doesn't do a 180 about-face and get everything right going forward We can read this in light of Jonah in chapter four, where he takes big steps back Or we can read this as the regular up and down progress of sanctification in the life of all believers everywhere

It is also ironic again, we're back now to Jonah being a little bit behind the curve. He was sent to Nineveh to evangelize the heathens, some of the worst enemies that Israel was going to face, and he ignores that call. And he, instead of going to Nineveh, he goes to Tarshish. He goes the opposite direction, and he does something that would be unthinkable to most Israelites.

He goes out on the open ocean. That's just insanity to someone living in the ancient world

He should have recognized that the sailors were fearing the Lord when they refused to throw him overboard. I think we all have a sort of innate sense when someone's behavior suddenly changes, and I think most of us, and not in some sort of strange, kooky, charismatic sense, but I think most of us can sort of go, "I think I know why that is."

Right, when you, when you see someone at work that suddenly stops lying about everything and stops backbiting and stops taking credit for other people's work, and then you find out a little while linger- longer that they've come to faith in Christ, if we're being honest, we're not all that surprised. But Jonah doesn't get it.

Jonah here promises the same things that the sailors already did, so now we're again back behind the curve

[00:42:37] Sanctification Confession

[00:42:37] Tony Arsenal: To wrap this out, I, I wanna, um, I wanna ground this in something that I think is really vital for us to understand. As I said, Jonah is an example to us because he demonstrates the limited nature of sanctification, but he also demonstrates in a certain sense the fact that sanctification is real and has real effects.

So this is a little out of the ordinary, but grab your Trinity Hymnal from the pew in front of you. If you happen to have a copy of the Confession, you could use that if you'd prefer. But open with me to page 927

I have, um, I've been, uh, broadly Reformed most of my Christian life and didn't realize it until I got to seminary. And since I discovered the Westminster Confession of Faith a decade ago, it's not new, uh, not new to me, um, I realized how valuable this resource was. This is essentially a search engine without the internet.

And so I wanna just read a little bit out of chapter 13 here, which is our Confessions chapter on sanctification. I'm not gonna read the whole thing, but the, the first, uh, the first section here essentially says that sanctification is real, and it happens throughout the whole person. We talk about total depravity, and there is a sense in which the Christian remains totally depraved after regeneration, in that there still is, there still is corruption within our entire being, uh, that is depraved.

There's also an equal sense in which we can say we are totally sanctified in Christ because sanctification is throughout the whole man in which we are renewed after the image of God. So that's section one. And then section two says, "This sanctification is throughout," again, throughout the whole man, "in the whole man, yet imperfect in this life.

There abiding still some remnant of corruption in every part, whence ariseth a continual and irre- irreconcilable war, the flesh left lusting after the spirit, and the spirit lusting after the flesh." Now, that may feel like just a crushing burden if you stop reading there, but it lines up with our experience, right?

This is Paul in Romans 7, "The good things I wanna do, I do not, and the bad things that I, I kn- I do not want to do, I somehow do. The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak." We shouldn't read that as though somehow our spirits are purified entirely and our bodies are what's really causing us to sin. This is a picture of the spirit being, uh, our, our spiritual part of us.

The part of us that's regenerated is willing, but the part of us that remains corrupt is our flesh And our confession goes on to say, "In which war, although the remaining corruption for a time may much prevail, yet through the continual supply of strength from the sanctification- sanctifying spirit of Christ, the regenerate part doth overcome."

And so the saints grow in grace, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. This is revolutionary in our broader evangelical world. The storybook Bible, Jonah did a bad thing and he gets punished, and he did a good thing and so he gets better, cannot understand this concept. This is why I think we have to be so careful when we choose what books to give to our little ones, right?

I, I make jokes about VeggieTales. I loved VeggieTales when I was in VeggieTales age range. I probably would sit down and watch VeggieTales with Augie when he gets old enough. But we have to be so careful not to let those messages come to our children, or to ourselves for that matter, uninterpreted by the scriptures first and foremost, and our Reformed tradition that we all believe.

Amen.

[00:46:49] Assurance in the Pit

[00:46:49] Tony Arsenal: This is vital for us When all is said and done, salvation, whether we're talking about justification, sanctification, glorification, resurrection, all of the different stages and phases of our salvation, it is entirely of the Lord. And it's for this reason that Jonah says, "I, with a voice of thanksgiving, will sacrifice to you.

What I have vowed I will pay." Salvation belongs to the Lord So this is the application of the sermon, loved ones. No matter how close to or actually into the pit itself we have fallen

The, the chapter on assurance of faith, I won't go there, but the chapter in our confession on assurance of faith is very honest with us that our assurance will be shaken, and at times we may not feel as though we have any assurance at all But even when we have fallen that deep into the pit of despair, even when we feel as though we are in the very depths of hell No matter how much our spiritual or physical life is fainting away as we starve for spiritual breath, as we feel that impulse in us that recognizes we're moments away from losing the faith entirely.

No matter how much the remnants of corruption in every part swirl around our heads like seaweed, how often do we feel wrapped up in sin? Whatever it is, I don't need to get specific 'cause I'm sure all of you are thinking of something in your head right now that has been swirling around you for years.

Maybe it's months, maybe it's years. Maybe you've never felt, since coming to Christ, you've never felt like it wasn't wrapped up around you like seaweed. Besetting sin is something that we need to be serious about, and it's a good cause for us to think hard and deep about our status as Christians, and to go to our pastor and seek the elders' assistance in this.

But besetting sin is not, is not a mark that excludes you from, from Christianity. Right? We're justified by faith alone, in Christ alone, by His grace alone. Not because we've overcome our besetting sin alone, right? That's not one of the five solas God redeems our life from the pit. From the very depths of hell itself, he snatched us like brands from the fire And though it is the case that we often are shaken, and at times God, just as he let Jonah, he let Jonah go to Tarshish.

God had every ability to stop him from doing a stupid thing, and sometimes he does that, right? I'm sure there's plenty of times we can think about in our lives where we were heading towards sin and God just pulled a U-turn on us, and we are thankful for that. But there are times that he does not, and he lets us, he lets us do that.

He lets us suffer the consequences, and he does that to chastise us and bring us back to him And even in the context of that, it is through this continual supply of the sanctifying Spirit of Christ, right?

[00:50:19] God Beautifies His Bride

[00:50:19] Tony Arsenal: Christ was anointed by the Holy Spirit from the womb beyond measure. That's in the Book of John.

There was never a time where Christ did not have the totality of the infinite sanctifying Spirit of the God, of God. We do not have the totality of the sanctifying Spirit of God. Now, we can get into a discussion after the service about divine simplicity and all the complexity of that, but the reality is that God sanctifies us more and more and more, and He does it by giving us the Spirit more and more.

Might be more accurate to say He gives more of us to the Spirit. He gives us to the Spirit more and more. He gives us to Jesus more and more. We are Christ's inheritance. We are His bride. And just as the bride, as they're approaching the wedding, is made more and more beautiful, they start their, their beauty treatments weeks and months ahead of time, right?

They're already making their hair appointments. They're already doing what they need to do to feel as beautiful as they can and to be as beautiful as they can on their wedding day. If that's the way we treat human weddings; guys do it too, just not as much. If that's the way we treat human weddings, how much more does God treat the heavenly wedding of His Son to His beloved bride?

He's beautifying us, Church. Doesn't always feel like it. Doesn't always look like it, but He is.

In episode 497 of The Reformed Brotherhood, Tony Arsenal and Jesse Schwamb bring the Parable of the Talents to a close with one of the most theologically rich discussions in recent memory. Beginning in Matthew 25:24, they zero in on the one-talent servant — not merely as a cautionary tale about productivity, but as a profound case study in distorted theology. The servant's fatal error wasn't laziness alone; it was a fundamentally false picture of his master. That mischaracterization produced a craven, fearful inaction that the hosts argue maps directly onto the eschatological stakes of the parable. Drawing on Calvin, William Ames, and Reformed confessional commitments, Tony and Jesse make the case that right theology is never merely academic — it shapes the whole of life, and ultimately determines one's eschatological destiny.

Key Takeaways

• The one-talent servant's core failure is theological, not behavioral — he constructs a false image of his master as harsh and exploitative, and that distorted theology governs everything that follows.
• False theology produces fatal inaction — the servant's fear is not godly fear but a craven dread rooted entirely in his mischaracterization of the master's character.
• The knowledge of God and the knowledge of self are inseparable — following Calvin's Institutes, the hosts argue that a right understanding of God as gracious and generous will produce active, trusting faithfulness, while a distorted view produces fearful, minimal compliance.
• The parable is fundamentally eschatological, not merely practical — interpreting the talents primarily as spiritual gifts or ministry opportunities misses the point; the parable is about who belongs to the master's kingdom and who does not.
• Character precedes action — the faithful servants do not become faithful by producing returns; they produce returns because they are faithful. The wicked servant buries his talent because he is wicked, not the other way around.
• William Ames understood the servant's sin as a violation of the ninth commandment — by burying his talent, the servant effectively bears false witness against God's own estimation of the gift, rejecting both the gift and the Giver.
• The "outer darkness" language is not out of place — it is the natural eschatological conclusion for someone who never genuinely knew or trusted the master, making the parable a picture of what it means to be outside the grace and presence of God entirely.

Key Concepts False Theology as the Root of Inaction

The most striking feature of the one-talent servant's account is not what he did — or failed to do — but what he believed. He tells his master, "I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow and gathering where you scattered no seed." Tony and Jesse point out that nothing in the parable supports this characterization. A master who entrusts his servants with what amounts to decades of wages — hundreds of years' worth of labor between three servants — is not a hard, exploitative figure. He is astonishingly generous and trusting. The servant has constructed a theological fiction, and that fiction becomes the prison of his own inaction. This is not a peripheral observation; it is the interpretive key to the entire parable. What we believe about God determines everything about how we live before Him.

The Knowledge of God Shapes the Whole of Life

Calvin famously opens the Institutes with the observation that the knowledge of God and the knowledge of self are so bound together that it is nearly impossible to determine which is logically prior. Jesse draws on this insight to show that the one-talent servant's self-understanding — timid, fearful, paralyzed — flows directly from his distorted image of God. A person who genuinely knows God as gracious, generous, and long-suffering will be motivated to active, trusting faithfulness. A person who privately believes God to be harsh and demanding will retreat into fearful, minimalist compliance. This is not merely a first-century observation. It is a diagnostic tool for self-examination: the shape of our obedience reveals the shape of our theology. Reformed orthodoxy has always insisted that right doctrine is not academic — it is the engine of the Christian life.

Character Precedes Action — The Anti-Works-Righteousness Reading

One of the most important guardrails Tony and Jesse set up in this episode is against a subtle works-righteousness reading of the parable. It is tempting to hear the parable and conclude: do productive things for the kingdom, and you will be welcomed as a good and faithful servant. But the hosts argue that this inverts the logic of the text entirely. The faithful servants are not commended because they generated a return; they generated a return because they are faithful servants. The wicked servant buries his talent because he is wicked — his character drives his conduct, not the reverse. Justification and sanctification alike are received by faith in Christ alone, and no reading of this parable should suggest that our eschatological standing is secured by our productivity. The sheep act like sheep because they are sheep. That punchline, Tony notes, will carry them straight into the sheep and the goats passage next week.

Memorable Quotes

"Who is it that's not going to be saved in the last day? It's the people who don't recognize the master. The people who think that the master is a hard man who reaps where he has not sown and gathers where he has not scattered. Well, if we think that's who God is, we have a lot of trouble coming our way." — Tony Arsenal

"A person who genuinely knows the living God as gracious, generous, long-suffering, with that kind of hesed kind of love — that person will be motivated to active, trusting faithfulness. A person who privately believes God to be harsh and demanding is always going to retreat in this fearful, minimal kind of compliance." — Jesse Schwamb

"The sheep act like sheep because they're sheep. They don't become sheep because they do sheep things. They do sheep things because they're sheep." — Tony Arsenal

Full Transcript

Welcome to episode four hundred and ninety seven of The Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse

And I'm Tony, and this is the podcast with ears to hear Hey, brother

[00:00:42] Jesse Schwamb: Hey, brother. We're back at it again. We're hanging out in Matthew's gospel, the 25th chapter, and it's time to, I think, close out the Parable of the Talents, where we've got two servants that double their master's money, and one who buries his in the ground like a Calvinist who's confused predestination with doing nothing.

And of course, all of this irony is the faithful servants, they can't even take credit. The master supplied the capital, the ability, and apparently even the bull market. It's grace all the way down. But meanwhile, the one talent guy returns exactly what he was given and he gets absolutely wrecked, and we're gonna dig into that.

Gonna dig into- ... that later.

[00:01:26] Affirm or Deny Segment

[00:01:26] Jesse Schwamb: But before we do, it's what everybody's waiting for. It's that time in the podcast where we affirm with something that we really like or we recommend or we think is undervalued, or we deny against something that's exactly the opposite. Not worth it, no good, get it out of here.

So Tony, are you affirming with or denying against?

[00:01:43] Tony Arsenal: I'm denying against something related to the World Cup. Um-

[00:01:47] Jesse Schwamb: Okay ...

[00:01:48] Tony Arsenal: I am not a purist, so please don't hear me as, like, elitist soccer dude who is resistant to any sort of changes, but, um, I didn't actually even know this was happening. Are you following the World Cup at all, Jesse?

[00:02:01] Jesse Schwamb: I'm trying to. I'm not against it, I'm just finding myself- Yeah ... stuck in

[00:02:05] Tony Arsenal: trying to like- There, there's a lot going on.

[00:02:06] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah ... yeah, coordinate everything.

[00:02:07] Tony Arsenal: Um, one of the things that they... And they're at weird times this year too- Yes ... at least so far they are.

[00:02:11] Jesse Schwamb: Exactly.

[00:02:11] Hydration Breaks Rant

[00:02:11] Tony Arsenal: Um, one of the things this year that I noticed that I didn't know was happening, and I hate it, hate it, hate it, hate it, is, uh, I, I guess I understand why they're doing it, but they've instituted what they're calling mandatory hydration breaks-

[00:02:25] Jesse Schwamb: Oh,

[00:02:26] Tony Arsenal: I've read about this

uh, into the games. Yeah. And essentially what this has done is it's turned a game that used to be, uh, and has always been two 45-minute halves-

[00:02:38] Jesse Schwamb: Mm-hmm ...

[00:02:38] Tony Arsenal: um, uh, with overage time, right? So, like, the, the ref will sometimes just, like, add a couple minutes. Usually it's, you know, three to five, maybe 10 minutes at the most to the end of the, the half.

They've turned that from, uh, two 45-minute halves into now four, what is that? Like, 23-minute quarters, 22 and a half- Right ... minute quarters. Um, and they're not always quarters. They're not always evenly split. They sometimes do the hydration break early or later. Um, this is awful. It's just awful, right? One of the, one of the, um, maybe this is me being a little bit of a soccer purist.

One of the things about soccer that makes it a challenging sport is the endurance of it.

[00:03:21] Jesse Schwamb: Right.

[00:03:22] Tony Arsenal: Right? And contrary to what I think most people think when they watch soccer, um, it's one of the few games, few professional games that doesn't have a ton of breaks- Right? There's not a lot of times where, where match play actually stops for any real amount of time.

Um, and that's what stoppage time is. It's not intended to be something like football, where there often is time on the clock where the clock is still moving, but the game is not, like, actively progressing forward, right? Right. You have to do something special to stop the clock. In soccer, uh, at least historically, 45 minutes of play is 45 minutes of play.

It's, it's 45 minutes of actual actionable play. And now, um, you know, they stop the game. The clock doesn't continue, but now the game stre- like, the, the game itself stretches longer 'cause they've introduced these additional breaks. So I'm denying, uh... This just sounds like s- I'm such a ghoul here. I'm denying mandatory hydration breaks, not because I want soccer players to get sunstroke.

Uh, they get plenty of water. There's plenty of times they get to stop and get water. It's- And this is... We didn't have mandatory hydration breaks when the World Cup was in Qatar. Right. Right? And everybody, for the most part, was fine. Like, the players were all fine. There were no casualties on the field. I don't even recall, like, major medical problems on the field.

We're in LA now. Yeah, it's warm, summer, but come on, guys. Like, let's, let's, let's be real. This is not, uh, this is not rec league. This is not, you know, U15 league play with, with kids. These are adult men who condition for a living. Like, this is their job, is to be conditioned and for their bodies to be in peak performance.

So it's just... It just interrupts the game. I don't know. I'm, I'm being a little crotchety here, but I feel like I have a right to be 'cause this is my show, and I can do what I want to. That's absolutely true. So I'm denying hydration breaks, mandatory hydrat- hydration breaks, which change the game. And a commentator actually commented about that on, on the match the other day.

Um, it changes the dynamic of the game. It changes the strategy of the game. Um, it changes the whole feel of the game, right from the strategy of how long you have to be able to go, right? This will change how- how footballers have to condition themselves, 'cause they're no longer having to condition themselves for two 45-minute halves.

They're having to condition themselves for four 22-and-a-half minute quarters, um, which is not the same game as, as that. So anyway, we'll- it's yet to see, be seen if that has any real impact on the outcome of any games or anything like that. But it was annoying to me, so I'm denying mandatory hydration breaks.

[00:05:59] Jesse Schwamb: That's great. We haven't had a good denial in a little while on this podcast. I think that's fantastic. I mean, not the break, but the denial itself. Plus, and I don't wanna be... You'll have to tell me if I'm speaking conspiratorial here, because most of my apparent World Cup and general sports news still comes from The Wall Street Journal, so that might be a weird place to get it.

But- ... the, I became aware of this through an article that was lamenting the exact same thing. Yeah. It was just basically all the arguments that you said. Like, it's weird, and the game wasn't designed this way, and it's definitely like an interruption. It's definitely like an insertion.

[00:06:32] Ads and Soccer Purism

[00:06:32] Jesse Schwamb: And then, of course, was all the stuff about, isn't this really about just allowing commercial break time, and it's more about that, and we're just conveniently saying that we need the hydration breaks.

And what else would they, we have them do if we needed to force them to take a break but say, "You know what? Why don't you guys take a knee and get some water- Yeah ... while we show you some ads?" So I imagine that doesn't sit well with people either.

[00:06:52] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. I mean, I'm sure that that's the case. Again, I, I haven't even been able to watch a full, full World Cup match, so I don't, I don't know...

I don't even know how long the hydration breaks are, to be honest with you. But yes, it's an interruption in play where they can cut to commercial. And whether that was why they put this in place or not, or whether they're just utilizing it, it's obnoxious. Like, part of the fun of watching soccer is that there is no commercial break for the first 45 minutes.

Right. Um, that's just part of- Which is unusual in sports ... part of the joy of the game, is that it's a continual game with no real breaks. Um, even when, like, a player is injured because, you know, there's an injury on the field or something like that, um, even when that happens, they don't cut to commercial because there was no planned commercial.

They don't have anything there. Right. So, um, it's changed, like, the way... Y- you know, even, even things like this is gonna change how uniforms are thought out, because sponsorship money through uniforms used to be the m- one of the main commercial-driving, like, sponsorships for, um, for the game. So I'm just annoyed by it.

[00:07:53] More Rule Changes

[00:07:53] Tony Arsenal: There's an- a couple other things that I'm annoyed by this year. They have this... It's kinda like that automatic up call checker thing we talked about. Right. They have this, like, um- They call it mistaken identity, uh, recheck. Basically where if a player is fouled or appears to be fouled, they can, someone can flag it and it will recheck it and, like, digitally the system tells them whether there was a foul or not.

And like I said before when we were talking about this a little bit before, um, there is a real element in the game, or there has been a real element to the game historically, where the ump is almost like, or the ref is almost like a third player, and you have to be wise and play the ref. Um, you have to, you know, there's, there's an element of a little bit of, uh, espionage and subtle- Right

you know, subterfuge here going on in the game that I think people outside the game who are just watching, they look and they think like, "Oh, yeah, that guy flopped." But there's a whole, like, art and there's a whole form to that, and there's real cost if you do it poorly. Um, and so, like, we've already had one instance where a yellow card was called on a player.

Uh, the other player simulated the foul. Um, and so they reversed it and gave the other guy a yellow card, but they did that after the game. Um, which, which is a whole other thing. Like, you play a whole game, um I could talk about this all night. Like when you get, when you get a red card- ... you're, you're out for an entire game, not just- Right

the rest of this game. You're out for an entire game. Your position is out for an entire game, so that might mean you start the next match down a player. Well, what does that mean if you are given a red card sort of posthumously after the match, right? Right. Like, you- it's changed the whole calculation because for the whole game, that player, uh, was playing as though he didn't have a yellow card.

And that, maybe that's good, maybe that's bad, but he was playing the game as though he didn't have a yellow card, and then all of a sudden now he does. Um, he doesn't go... I don't think he goes into the next match starting with a yellow card. Um, a- and so I'm kind of like, "Well, what's the, what's the point?"

But, um, you know, some of that plays into, like, if there's ties and ties, match, match point ties, then they start looking at who has penalties and stuff. But either way, it's annoying that they, they're introducing this. Like, we didn't need to have... Yes, there's probably a place for reviewing a, a bad ref's calls.

Right. They've also added, like, automatic on offsides. There was a whole strategy and a whole part of the game of forcing a person offsides, of drawing a person offsides, being offsides without looking like you're offsides. Some people may look at that and go, "Well, that's cheating," but no, it's actually just part of the game.

Right. Like, playing the ref and understanding that is part of the game. And now it's still part of the game, but it's part of the game in a different way, and that's... Maybe I am just being a purist, but I just, I don't like it. I don't like it. Give me back my beautiful game the way it's always been and get off my lawn, get off the turf, get off my pitch, whatever.

Um, I'm denying the fact that the World Cup is not as it's always been. But also, like, we don't need this stuff. Like, the World Cup has been fine for how many years?

[00:11:03] Jesse Schwamb: Right.

[00:11:03] Tony Arsenal: We don't need water breaks like this- W- i- you know, if it was like last World Cup, five players died from dehydration in the middle of the...

Like, okay, like yeah, let's do some water breaks. But like, nobody died. Nobody even had major medical emergencies. I think a couple people had to come out of the game a little early 'cause they weren't well-hydrated. But like- Right ... run to the side, get a water bottle. Like, you can do that in the middle of a game.

There's nothing- Yeah ... against the rules to stand by the sideline, drink when someone's doing a substitution or even in the middle of the game. I've seen that happen, where someone will sprint over to the sideline, they'll take a drink of water, and then they'll throw the cup back over. So anywho, we should move on.

This could be my entire, my entire rant of, for a whole episode- Good ... against the weird changes in, in World Cup soccer, so.

[00:11:48] Jesse Schwamb: Listen, I love it.

[00:11:49] Peacock Spanish Hack

[00:11:49] Jesse Schwamb: My favorite hack, uh, for World Cup soccer so far this year, and this was given to me by a colleague, uh, and a brother, I think this is fantastic, is right now because my wife is convalescing, we have all the subscriptions temporarily to allow, like, the full healing process to take place.

Watch whatever you want, wherever you want. Except for the World Cup, because the, uh... I- it was just, like, where you could actually get it in English was, like, crazy expensive, at least for me. So here's the thing, though. Somebody reminded me uh, that we have Peacock and that because of Telemundo, could just watch and stream the entire World Cup in Spanish.

So guess what, loved ones? We're learning a lot more Spanish- I love it ... and we're watching the World Cup with the announcers on. I'm not turning off that, 'cause that's the best part. And, you know, I'm getting, like, 25% of what's being said, but it is awesome. And there's- Yeah ... a lot more energy and excitement.

So if for some reason you have Peacock and you're saying, "Oh, I'm missing the World Cup," technically you don't have to. It's all there for you. That's amazing. Just you gotta embrace Spanish.

[00:12:46] Tony Arsenal: That's amazing. And yes, actually, it probably is more entertaining.

[00:12:49] Jesse Schwamb: It is.

[00:12:50] Tony Arsenal: Um, and you don't, you don't need to... You really don't need to understand what the commentator is- No

I mean, like 90% of the time the commentator's like, "Oh, he's having a good year," and, uh- ... yeah, like, "Oh, yeah, yeah, he's looking real great. Do you see how his, uh, laces are laced up?" Like, they're just trying to fill time.

[00:13:05] Jesse Schwamb: Right.

[00:13:05] Tony Arsenal: So it doesn't really matter what they're saying. And when it does matter what they're saying, you'll get it just from the-

[00:13:11] Jesse Schwamb: Yes

[00:13:11] Tony Arsenal: just from what the announcer's voices are doing. So I'll have to check that out. Yeah, the, the matches are at weird times, at least so far. I think, I think that once we get out of group play, m- a lot of the matches shift to the East Coast, so there'll be, uh, a little bit more normal times.

[00:13:25] Jesse Schwamb: Right.

[00:13:25] Tony Arsenal: But, like, the first, the first, uh, US match was at 9:00 Eastern Time, and then, like, the last one's at 10:00 Eastern Time.

Yeah.

[00:13:32] Jesse Schwamb: So

[00:13:33] Tony Arsenal: late. Yeah, super late, and it's a, it's a three-hour match by the time you, you get done with halftime and everything. So yeah, it'll, it'll... It's, it's frustrating. Although historically, um, every time the men, the men's team has won their first match, they've gotten out of group play, and every time they've lost their fir- first match, they have not gotten out of group play.

And we, we really, really won our first match. Yes. Yeah. So I think, I think we'll get out of group play. I think probably, depending on how the, the cards roll, um, we'll probably, we'll probably get through our first elimination round, maybe our second, but we're not gonna go much further than that. Um, even, even that would be a, a pretty good victory, so- Anyway, football is life, right?

Danny Ross. Um, do, did you watch Ted last night? Yes,

[00:14:24] Jesse Schwamb: I have seen it. Yes.

[00:14:25] Tony Arsenal: That was good. Football is life. Um, that's me this time of year. Like, I wore a soccer jersey to work on Friday, and nobody could tell me I couldn't do that, and I didn't care. So- I

[00:14:33] Jesse Schwamb: love it ...

[00:14:34] Tony Arsenal: uh, nobody even tried. Everybody, everybody's fine.

Everybody loves soccer- How dare they ... and loves the World Cup, so. Yeah. That's the truth. Anywho, save me from this. I, I literally could talk about soccer all night. This is the one sport that I get like this. And the... Not even the one sport. The one sporting event that I get like this about is the World Cup.

I love it. So you've gotta, you gotta stop me or I'm not gonna, not gonna stop. Let

[00:14:54] Jesse Schwamb: it out.

[00:14:54] Hydration Tabs Recommendation

[00:14:54] Jesse Schwamb: Well, I would say, like, we could play that game with our affirmations and denials where it's, like, six degrees of separation, but we only need one. And this is gonna sound like it was planned, but it wasn't. Your denial, of course, as you've just well articulated, was about hydration breaks.

Turns out my affirmation is actually about hydration. So-

[00:15:11] Tony Arsenal: Jesse's affirming hydration breaks. We're about

[00:15:13] Jesse Schwamb: to fight. Yeah. No, I'm, I'm definitely not a- affirming hydration breaks, but this might be the kind of hydration they're having. I don't know, but it's the one I'm gonna recommend. So where I live, it is the summertime, and where I live, we get both the heat and the humidity, and that's the oppressive part, isn't it?

It's where it feels like the inside of a dog's mouth. And so I actually just came back from a run, and my go-to hydration break for myself is, uh, Nuun, N-U-U-N. And here's the reason why, is I've had Gatorade, I've had all the... I've had Liquid IV, I've had all that stuff. Most of the time it's r- too sweet. Nuun is just these effervescent dissolvable tablets that you drop into water, and it creates this low sugar electrolyte drink.

It has all, like, the normal stuff. It has sodium, potassium, magnesium, calcium, chloride, all that good stuff, but there's just one gram of sugar. And it's this convenient little tab. Like, you can just get this whole little roll of tabs. You can carry them with you if you're going hiking or you're camping or you're out and gonna do a run.

You just drop them into a bottle of water or whatever size water you want. I usually go 32 ounces is the way I like it. They have all, all kinds of flavors. It's just the right thing. Like, it's... It is like the refreshing thing of water, but when you're like, "You know what? I wanna taste something that's not water."

So Nuun is, like, the right thing. I may have referred to it before, so I'm sorry if I did. But I'm referring with you can order it on, like, Amazon or any kind of, I don't know, general kind of camping or sports-oriented store is probably gonna be there. But it's... For me, it's the right thing because I don't know about you, but I find most sports drinks, like, in general too sweet.

Like, you, you start... You have one, and then if I get through it, I'm kind of like, "Ugh, now I feel like my mouth is, like, really just coated in sugar, and that's not what I wanted." Yeah. So this feels like you're, you're getting a little less sweetness, but you don't feel guilty afterwards like you've just consumed a bunch of sugar.

I will admit, I drink one I guess it's like 12 ounce Gatorade every week, just one. And this is because there's a delightful and loving, like, 72-year-old woman in our congregation who brings, I believe it's her own, she invests this every week. She brings for the team that is doing the worship through music Gatorade, uh, because she thinks we need to be replenished.

So really, we have a hydration break- ... right before the service. But she, it's so beautiful and so delightful, I will never refuse it, and I am also on often parched at the time. So-

[00:17:31] Tony Arsenal: Yeah ...

[00:17:31] Jesse Schwamb: it does work out, so.

[00:17:31] Tony Arsenal: Jesse's worship team goes real hard. They need to hydrate in the middle. They do a mandatory hydration break in the middle of the- It's, yeah

middle of the service.

[00:17:39] Jesse Schwamb: It's mandatory. Yes. We are strict.

[00:17:41] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. And it's an, it's a good time for announcements and commercial breaks. Um, yeah. I, I think, uh, and you're... I don't know if you're gonna believe me when I say this. With all of the Nuun that passes its way around the family home when we're all here- Yeah

at summertime, I've never had-

[00:17:57] Jesse Schwamb: Oh, really? ...

[00:17:57] Tony Arsenal: Nuun. Yeah. We never tried it. I think our go-to for, for sort of powdered energy drink or powdered, uh, sports drink is little Propel packets.

[00:18:05] Jesse Schwamb: Um- Oh,

[00:18:05] Tony Arsenal: that's not bad either. Propel's not bad. I like Propel. It's very sweet, but it, it doesn't- Yeah ... um, Propel- doesn't add sugar.

I think that they've, they've got their formula where it's a sugar-free formula. Um, but it is very sweet. So sometimes I'll only do, like, a half a packet of Propel- Yeah ... which I know kind of, they, they argue that or they, like, advertise as, like, "It's the perfect balance of electro-" I don't know if it's the perfect balance of electrolytes, but- Um, but some is better than none probably.

Yeah. And, uh, Propel is not better than Nuun apparently, so.

[00:18:36] Jesse Schwamb: I, I, I think Nuun is, like, top shelf electrolyte. And you can get it, like I said, in lots of flavors. One of the fun things is you can get it caffeinated or uncaffeinated. I mean, most, most of it is uncaffeinated. But if you're like you wanted to have some, they have a what they call Kona Cola, and it is cola-flavored and has caffeine.

It's amazing, because it's, like, just slightly effervescent, a little bit bubbly. Not too much. It's still, like, refreshing, but if you like the cola flavor, which as you know is its own distinct combination of elements and spices, then it's right on. So- Yeah ... it's really nice. So there you go. Yeah. Nuun- I- And if you're gonna take a hydration break because you're being forced to while you're playing soccer, I highly suggest you choose Nuun.

That's the way to go.

[00:19:22] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know what they're drinking. I think most of the time they're just drinking water.

[00:19:26] Jesse Schwamb: Probably.

[00:19:26] Tony Arsenal: So I, I don't... I mean, I, I think you're supposed to drink something with some electrolytes, so maybe they have some electrolyte-

[00:19:32] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah ...

[00:19:32] Tony Arsenal: water in it. I don't know.

[00:19:33] Jesse Schwamb: I don't know.

Probably.

[00:19:34] Join the Telegram Group

[00:19:34] Jesse Schwamb: Here's the thing. If you wanna tell us what you like to drink or when you are, let's say, serving the Lord's people by participating in worship through music and you're forced to take a hydration break, as I am at times, then you need to go to t.me\reformedbrotherhood. Put that into your browser right now.

Take a hydration break and put t.me\reformedbrotherhood into your browser and that will send you to a link for Telegram, which is just a little chat app in which we have a small corner of the world. It's brothers and sisters listening to the podcast, interacting, and it's about time, actually, we probably had some kinda taste test stuff-

[00:20:11] Tony Arsenal: Yeah

with,

[00:20:12] Jesse Schwamb: like, these kinda hydration drinks. There's so many of them now. Some of them are, like, purposely salty. Some of them are really sweet. Some have all these crazy and wild flavors. Some of them have all kinds of caffeine. So let us know what you like, but best way to do that- Please ... is join the Telegram group.

[00:20:26] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. And please do not, uh, do not make your church stop their service for a hydration break. Please don't do that. The only hydration break I wanna hear you talking about in your church service is a baptism. So please-

[00:20:38] Jesse Schwamb: I knew that's

[00:20:38] Tony Arsenal: where you were going ... do not interrupt the Lord's day for a hydration break.

Just if you need water, just, like, step out of the room, take a drink of water, come back. Or if you're in a church that lets you have water in the sanctuary, like most do, just take a drink. That's true. You don't have to- Yeah ... stand up. You don't need to have- That's good ... anyone interpret. Just take a quick drink and then be quiet.

Just

[00:20:54] Jesse Schwamb: go to the sidelines, maybe sub out- Mm-hmm ... with somebody else who can play bass, and take a quick drink.

[00:21:00] Tony Arsenal: Exactly. Come back. Yeah. Or just dump the, dump the Propel powder straight in your mouth.

[00:21:05] Jesse Schwamb: I thought you were gonna say like have somebody come up, preferably like an elder, and just hose you down with a thing of Gatorade while you're, while you're

playing

[00:21:10] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, exactly.

Just go up to the baptismal font, take a scoop of water, dump the Propel directly in the baptis- no, I'm just kidding. I shouldn't joke about that stuff. Yeah.

[00:21:19] Back to Matthew 25

[00:21:19] Tony Arsenal: Anyway, Jesse, I'm excited because although we are probably gonna round out this parable, we're not done with these parables because- Oh, yeah, that's

[00:21:28] Jesse Schwamb: right

[00:21:28] Tony Arsenal: although we're gonna finish this parable this week, we'll probably finish it and get started talking about, uh, the next, the little chunk of text, which is not a parable, but we can't really, uh, divorce it from these parables 'cause they're all telling, they're all making the same or a very similar point about what the kingdom of heaven will be like in relation to the end times- Mm-hmm

in relation to the eschatological, um, outcome of all things. Uh, and, and Christ in his teaching, um, he kind of rounds out this teaching and finalizes what these parables mean by talking to us about the sheep and the goats. Um, which again, is not really formed like a parable, but, uh, but it has very similar structures.

It has some similar elements to it. Um, but it, it's so integral to what these, all what this sort of like, uh, anthology of eschatological parables mean in all the discourse. We really have to cover that to, to cover the others fully. But tonight we're gonna finish our discussion about the parable of the talents, which I'm excited about because I think we're gonna, we're gonna round out on some stuff that, um, I, I hope you've heard, uh, is probably not as, um, prominent as it should be.

Uh, and this, we talked about last time that this parable has been, uh, not necessarily applied properly in many popular- Right ... teachings. Uh, and so I'm, I'm sure you've heard not so great interpretations. Hopefully we're gonna give you an interpretation that's a little bit more accurate and faithful to what the Bible teaches.

[00:23:00] Reading the Parable Text

[00:23:00] Jesse Schwamb: And so we're gonna pick it up in verse 24 of Matthew 25, because you'll probably recall, and if you haven't it's because you need to go back and listen, that we talked about the first two of these servants and the return that they were able to garner on the investment which the Lord gave them when He went away.

And then there's the third dude. So we're gonna pick it up there and go all the way to the end of this, which allow us to close it out. So beginning verse 24, "And the one also had received the one talent came up and said, 'Master, I knew you'd be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow and gathering where you scattered no seed.

And I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground. See, have what is yours.' But the master answered and said to him, 'You wicked, lazy slave. You knew that I reap where I did not sow and gather where I scattered no seed; therefore you ought to have put my money in the bank, and on my arrival I would have at least received my money back with interest.

Therefore take away the talent from him, and give it to the one who has 10 talents. For to everyone who has more, more shall be given, and he will have an abundance. But from the one who does not have, even what he does not have,' excuse me, 'what he does have shall be taken away. And throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness.

In that place, there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'"

[00:24:18] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:24:19] Textual Notes and Transition

[00:24:19] Tony Arsenal: There, there's some, um, some textual things about this that I think, uh, we sh- should at least acknowledge. I don't know that we're gonna dig too deep into them. Um, it is very possible to, um, to read verse 30 Almost as an interpretive statement in itself rather than part of the, um, part of the parable itself.

And, and so let me, let me see if I can, can parse that out. So if we read it as though it's part of the parable, then it is the s- the, the master in the parable who is saying, "And cast the worthless servant into the darkness; in the place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." I think that's the most natural reading, so I'll, I'll put my cards on the table that I think that we should read this as part of the parable itself.

It's also possible linguistically and grammatically to sort of read this as an explanation, where Christ is now taking this principle of what has happened with the worthless servant, right? That even what he has will be taken away. And then, and then to sort of read this as a commentary that sort of, uh, like we saw before, um, kind of bridges this section with the next.

So instead of reading, "And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness," uh, as though it were part of the parable, that it was this master within the parable saying this, we can read this as Christ saying that this is what will happen to those who are worthless servants. And then that follows up with, in verse 31, kind of h- connecting to when the Son of Man comes in His glory and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne.

Before Him will be gathered all nations. Right. Th- this next sort of, like, more explicit, non-parabolical, um, uh, eschatological teaching. I think that former one is more natural, but just because it's, it's present in a lot of the commentaries that this is there, I wanted to at least call that out. I don't know that it makes a ton of difference in terms of how we understand the parable, but I do think, you know, part of what it means for us to wrestle through this is not just to take a particular position on the text, but to discuss, like, some of these ambiguities that are present.

Um, and, and sometimes, um Sometimes I think we need to be cautious and really think through, because, uh, let me, let me rephrase it this way. None of the teaching in the Bible is sort of uninterpreted, untranslated, raw teaching of Christ. All of this is coming to us from the apostles retelling it, and yes, inspired by the Holy Spirit, so all of it's God's Word.

But it's not as though, um, it's not as though Christ was first speaking in Greek. That's the big thing. But there are some places in the New Testament, in the Gospels, where it's not always clear whether a passage is Christ speaking or the, uh, the Gospel writer interpreting what Christ is speaking. This is one of those places where there's a little bit of a question mark about that.

Um, again, I think the most natural reading is to read this as part of the statement of the master within the parable, but I did wanna just comment on that before we moved on much further.

[00:27:31] Buried Talent Scandal

[00:27:31] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, that's helpful because I think we've gotta understand that end in light of how it's evolving. And we, we're starting with that stark contrast between the first two, which receive this great reward, which receive accolades and praise, and then you have this one talent servant's response is all about hiddenness.

He just digs a hole, puts it in the ground, and hides it away. Which by the way, of course, we talked about this in the other parables, like in the ancient world, burying valuables was recognized as a form of safekeeping. I mean, I think even Josephus mentions that. We talk about the pearl of great price.

There was something to be known for, well, I have this valuable thing. The best place for me to, the best place for me to put it so that it isn't compromised is in the ground, in a secret place. And there's like a surface level, I guess, reasonableness to that act. But what's interesting and where it comes in with that heat that you're kinda talking about, that ends up being in the end this grand statement of the eschatological, eschatological reality, is that the parable here with this one talent servant treats all that action as like complete catastrophic failure.

And I, I think as much as I can understand it, it's because the master did not give him this talent to protect it from loss. He gave it to him for, to use it for gain And so the servant has mistaken the nature of that commission entirely. He substituted like the security-seeking for risk-taking faithfulness.

And so I think that informs some of then what happens in these latter verses here, like when we get all the way down to 30. Because I think when we read that, we see the, like the redistribution as scandalous. But the scandal really is in this lack of actions. Like gifts exercised grow, but gifts buried, they just atrophy.

So the one t- talent servant's talent is taken because he's, he's already been treated as n- as it was, was nothing. He's functionally like forfeited it by burying it. And so the transfer of the 10-talent servant is the formal confirmation of what his own choices had, had already produced. I think there is something there about like the eschatological reality, reality that will unfold in the judgment, which of course leads to, into the end of this chapter

[00:29:36] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.

Yeah, I think you're right on that.

[00:29:39] Misreading The Master

[00:29:39] Tony Arsenal: Um, what we see the problem with the one talent servant is not, um, not that he's not productive.

[00:29:49] Jesse Schwamb: Right.

[00:29:49] Tony Arsenal: I mean, I think that's, that's actually the symptom of the illness, not the illness itself. What we see with the, the one talent servant is that he misunderstands his task, as you're pointing out, but more foundationally, he misunderstands his master, right?

And that, that's really the, the main point of the parable when we kinda get... You know, Christ, um, when He's telling a parable, He explains the parable. Sometimes He doesn't explain the parable at all. He just sorta drops the parable and then moves on. Other times He will give the interpretation itself, like directly.

We saw that in the parable of the, uh, of the soils or the parable of the sower. Um, and, and other times the kind of like the main explanation of the parable is, is actually embedded in the parable. And I think for this parable, the main explanation is when the, the one talent servant, uh, comes forward and he, when he's explaining why he did what he did-

[00:30:47] Jesse Schwamb: Right

[00:30:48] Tony Arsenal: he says, "Well, I knew you were a," uh, let me just find it for sure here. He says, um, "I knew that you were a..." I just lost it. My brain is totally lost here. You ever have that happen where you're trying to find a word- Yes ... on a text and you just can't? He says, "Master," in verse 24, he says, "Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow and gathering where you scattered no seed.

So I was afraid. I went and hid your talent in the ground. Here you have what is yours." There's a number of statements in here that just don't make any sense. Like, they're just... Like you said, a lot of these parables have kind of like a chump figure, where, like, he's sort of like the designated idiot of the parable.

[00:31:31] Jesse Schwamb: Right.

[00:31:32] Tony Arsenal: In this instance, there's so much wrong that it's almost hard to find something right. And, you know, he starts out, he says, "I knew you were a hard man." There's nothing in the parable, there's nothing that suggests that this is a hard man. There's nothing to suggest that. He, as we said last week, he trusts these servants with an almost unimaginable amount of wealth, right?

He just leaves hundreds of years worth of wealth in the, in the, like... And it's not even like he's going off to war and he may never be coming back. He's just going on a journey.

[00:32:05] Jesse Schwamb: Right.

[00:32:05] Tony Arsenal: He's just traveling for a little while, and he's like, "I'm gonna leave 100 years worth of labor with this guy and 40 years worth of labor with this guy and 20 years worth of labor with this guy."

He, what, what, in what world is that a hard man who just blesses and trusts his servants with that amount of unimaginable wealth? But then he says, "I knew that you, uh, reaped where you did not sow and gathered where you scattered no seed." First of all, um, what kind of person accumulates this kind of wealth without reaping, uh, without the, like, a- apart from the principle of reaping and sowing and gathering and, and scattering?

Like, he obviously is a very successful businessman. Um, the, the fact that this, uh, servant is couching this in agricultural terms, I think it's reasonable to think that this is a very successful landowner who has made good use of his land, has turned a profit Obviously he's reaping where he sows and he's gathering where he scattered or he wouldn't have this kind of money to throw around to leave with his servants in the first place.

But the servant doesn't recognize that the fact that he was given one talent is in fact the master reaping or sowing and scattering the seed of these talents. So he's saying like, "Well, you reap where you have not sown," but the fact is like he was sown a full talent worth of resources and he, the, the master expected to reap what he had sown when he gets back.

So this servant He's worthless and he's lazy, but he's also just kind of dumb in that he just doesn't- Right ... recognize the reality of what's going on. He has an incorrect understanding of who the master is. He thinks he's a hard man, when actually he's an incredibly trusting and generous master, right?

The, the ESV masks this as servants. We're not talking about hired hands here. We're talking about slaves. Right. We're talking about h- probably about household slaves. This is doulos. These are the slaves that work in the fields, um, as opposed to, like, diakonos, which are the slaves that work in the house, right?

These are, these are field servants. These are laborers that are indentured or are, are in servitude, and he gives them enough wages, enough labor, enough money, they could just take off and leave with it. They could buy their own freedom with this. Right. He trusts them with that. That's not a description of a hard man, a hard, lazy man who sows w- reaps where he doesn't sow and gathers where he doesn't scatter.

So the primary issue here with this servant is not that he's lazy, although he is lazy. It's not that he's wicked. He is wicked. It's that he doesn't recognize who the master is. He doesn't understand who the master is and what is expected of him as a servant of that master, which I think, I think, as I've thought about this over the last week or so, I think that actually says everything about the eschatological import of this, right?

Yes. Who is it that's not going to be saved in the last day?

[00:34:56] Jesse Schwamb: That's right.

[00:34:57] Tony Arsenal: It's the people who don't recognize the master. Right on. The people who think that the master is a hard man who reaps where he has not sown and gathers where he has not scattered. Well, if we think that's who God is, we have a lot of trouble coming our way.

[00:35:10] Fearful False Theology

[00:35:10] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, that is the heart, right, of this dude's sin. It's a false theology of God that produces then this fearful inaction. Because, like you said, it's not just that he's been lazy. He has constructed this weird, distorted picture of his master, and then he allows that distortion to govern his behavior. So this, quote-unquote, "fear" is not like the fear of the Lord that is the beginning of wisdom, but it's this kind of craven dread that's rooted in a mischaracterization of the master's entire character.

And one of the things that I think, among many, that's really great about the Reformed theological tradition is that it's always assisted, and I th- hopefully we along with it in our conversations, that, like, the right theology is not merely academic. It does shape the whole life, which is why, like, Calvin famously opens his institutes with this observation that the knowledge of God and the knowledge of self are bound together.

So- Yeah ... a person who genuinely knows the living God as gracious, generous, long-suffering, with that kind of hesed kind of love, who is good- W- that person will be motivated to active, trusting faithfulness. A person who privately believes God to be harsh and demanding is always, I think, going to retreat in this fearful, minimal kind of minimum champion-type compliance.

It's the same thing, I think I always think about this for some reason, and mention it a lot probably, but it's the same thing with Joseph's brothers finding all their money back in the sacks-

[00:36:31] Tony Arsenal: Yeah ...

[00:36:32] Jesse Schwamb: with their food. It's, like, in that instant moment, all they have is fear and dread. And it- for this guy, that's exactly what he has.

But it doesn't start, like you're saying, merely because he realizes that he should have done more, or he's comparing his return with that of everybody else, or even that he's going back and taking a look at his own actions and finding them to be full of want or lack. In fact, he does a really good job, at least in his own mind, theologically justifying his behavior.

So here, what he, the real crime, the real shame, the real sin is that somehow he views the master as harsh and demanding and exploitative. That's wild. But of course, that was the root of everything else, which I think does give us pause to reflect on our own lives, like I said, as we come to understanding how this parable reads us.

[00:37:20] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.

[00:37:21] Red Letters And Commentary

[00:37:21] Tony Arsenal: And, um- Part of the reason why I think it's important to understand what I was talking about earlier with, you know, the, the Gospels are an interesting sort of like composite document in that, yes, they contain the true sayings of Jesus, the true, true, um, words of Christ. But this is also, a- and I promise that this will loop back around, this is, um, this is important for us.

The red letters are no more God's word than the black letters, right? Mm-hmm. And what I mean by that is, like, the, the so-called words of Christ in scripture are not more inspired or more profitable than the words that are the commentary of the apostles. And I only say so-called, and I'll explain why I say that.

As I said, like, Matthew is translating, uh, he- first of all, he's recalling what Christ has said. He's, he's probably not, um, sitting there with a, with a quill and a, you know, a piece of paper or a piece of parchment- Right ... transcribing what's, what Christ is saying as he goes. Right? He's, he was there. Matthew was there.

He's recalling what Christ has said under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. He's making editorial decisions about what Christ taught in terms of like, what of Christ's teaching do I capture? What do I summarize? And I think there's ... It's important because every word is inspired, but also it's understandable.

And what I mean here, and what, the reason I'm kind of belaboring that is I think there's an interesting thing that happens in verse 29. It says, "For to everyone who has, more will be given, and he will have an abundance. And from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken." So this, this concept actually that, um, that verse 30 might be, uh, might actually be Matthew's commentary or even Christ's explanation of the parable, I think that actually, that actually expands to verse 29 in some of the commentators.

So if we read it this way, and I think this, this may be valuable for us to at least ponder. If we read it this way, verse 27 is still the master in the parable space. It says, "Then you ought to have invested my money with the bankers, and at my coming I should have received what was my own with interest.

So take the talent from him and give it to him who has 10 talents." There's a way of understanding this text, uh, and it's grammatically acceptable. I think theologically it doesn't change a lot, but it's worth us at least considering this. There's a way of reading this text where that's the end of the parable, and then Christ is explaining the parable, or Ma- or even maybe Matthew is commenting on the parable.

It says, "For to everyone who has, more will be given, and he will have an abundance. But to the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away." Now, I think that, um, as I said, the most natural way to read this is that the parable proper ends with verse 30, that all of this is part of the parable, all of this is the master in the parable speaking.

But I do think verses 29 and 30 take on a more explanatory, um, uh, explanatory role, and this is the main reason why. The, the one parable, one talent servant in the parable, he's not properly described as the one who has not, right? He had one talent. He was given one talent. Right. It's not as though he had zero talents.

The one who has not, even what he has will be taken away, and the one who has, more will be given.

[00:41:01] Has And Has Not

[00:41:01] Tony Arsenal: This is actually, I think, where we can go really sideways on this parable. I hear this parable often interpreted as sort of this understanding that, like, God has blessed His people with certain gifts, and we have to use our gifts in the kingdom to be productive, and people who use their gifts in productive fashion will be given more responsibility and more opportunities.

People who don't use their gifts, whatever opportunities they have will be taken away from them. Now, I, I would argue that's probably true on a practical level, um, and that's just actually just true in general, right? Right. A person who has responsibility, th- think of, like, your working environment. M- you know, all, most of our listeners are not working in regular pastoral ministry.

This is one of those areas where I think, actually, the corporate world is more representative of how things are. Um, in the corporate world, if you are given responsibility and you excel and use that responsibility well and you are a productive servant of your company that you work for, you're going to be given more responsibility, whether that's in the form of a promotion, which is the ideal circumstances, or whether that's just your responsibilities as assigned, a job description expanding without pay.

Either way, if you do a good job, if you, if you take the sphere of influence, the sphere of responsibility that you're given and you do a good job and you shepherd that well and you steward that well, that sphere of influence, that sphere of responsibility will expand. Um- If you squander it and you sit in your office watching TikTok videos or listening to music and you don't use that, uh, responsibility well, that sphere of influence will shrink, and ultimately it will shrink until you no longer have a job, right?

It works a little differently, I think, in, like, traditional pastoral roles, and I think there are some in our audience that, them, are in those roles that this may not fit. That's a good general principle. I don't think that's what this is teaching. Like, I don't think this, this parable is about, like, productive ministry opportunities.

Right. And if it was, we wouldn't be talking about people who have none, have not, right? We would be talking about people who have less. We'd be talking about people who are given less responsibility. The person who has no responsibility is who's in view here. And that's why- Mm ... I think it actually, this is shifting, this ex- explanation, whether it's, uh, sort of like an explanation, an explanatory punchline to the parable that's part of the parable itself, or whether it's Jesus or Matthew commenting on the meaning of the parable.

The difference between those two things is important for us to think about. It's not so important in terms of what the actual meaning is. Because the difference here is that what we've now done is we've shifted from the context of a financial grounded analogy in the parable to now a broader discussion about the fact that there are those who have, and there are those who have not.

And the people who have will be given more, and the people who have not will be taken away from. And if we were talking strictly financially, then now we're, like, in, like, Occupy Wall Street, 1% kind of era. We're talking about salvation. We're talking about, um, we're talking about the fact that God gives salvation to some, and He does not give salvation to others.

He gives grace to some, and He does not give grace to others. And to those who have grace, more grace will be given. To those who have not grace, more will be taken away. And the outcome of that- Is that the worthless servant who is the one who has not, the worthless servant will be cast into the outer darkness, right?

This is a, an explanation of what it means to be a worthless servant who ultimately ends their time. Ends is not the right word. Who ultimately has the outcome of s- of outer darkness for all eternity. If this parable is just about how we use our giftings and our skills and our money for the kingdom, and we're expected to be productive and to, like, increase the kingdom through our tithing and through our, like our service, then this comment about, like, the outer darkness is really out of place.

Unless, unless we earn our salvation by that. Which of course we know we don't.

[00:45:22] Jesse Schwamb: Right. Right.

[00:45:24] Wicked And Slothful Heart

[00:45:24] Jesse Schwamb: Here's how I think everything you said is true, and the scripture actually bears this out because it was exactly where you're going with that, which is we're talking more about the identity. Like, what, what makes this servant or slave worthless?

That's the critical question. And then if we understand that, it'll help inform how we then interpret this idea of sheeps and goats, which we'll get to in a whole other episode. But if you look at verses 26 and 27, where the master then responds to this slave calls him wicked and slothful, slothful, right?

So that his, his basically lack of usefulness comes embedded or underneath those two terms. So one, obviously the wickedness here is moral. It's a failure to fulfill a covenantal obligation to the master, which we've been talking about. So again, it's not just about laziness. Like there's, there's so much more there.

It's as if that's the entry point for the master to bring condemnation on him in two forms. One is that wickedness. The second is this idea of like slothfulness, which is dispen- I was gonna say dispensational, but what I meant to say is dispositional. So it's like, uh, like a subtle inertia of the will, and together they're describing a person, and I think this is a critical point.

This is a person whose heart has never been genuinely aligned with the master's purposes. Now, when we understand it that way, I think, then everything that follows makes a lot more sense because it's not just about bad timing in the market. It's not just about being fearful that you're gonna lose money and you're risk-averse, so therefore you hid, hid everything.

It's really this idea that this, this s- slave, this one talent slave, he was not on board, not vibing with, not aligned with, however you wanna say it, with the master's purposes from the very beginning. And there is maybe we might say like a minimum of faithfulness, even interest on the deposit that God requires.

But the question of course is never am I doing what the five talent servant does, but it's always am I using what I have been given? And in this way, like are we finding ourselves aligned, that our hearts are leaning into, that we find ourselves tilting towards what God has for us, both understanding who He is and who we are in light of who He is.

What I find interesting is I found some really unique commentary from the great puritan William Ames in his book Conscience, with the Power and Cases Thereof. That's a title that only a puritan could- ... forward, um, where he actually treats this failure. So getting again to the sense of like why is it so grievous?

Like in other words, why does the action of this servant, which we've already kind of touched on, lead into basically a character attack on the servant, and why is the connection between those two things legitimate? What he basically says is that he treats the failure to use one's gifts as God has given as a violation of the ninth commandment, which is bearing false witness against God's own estimation of those gifts.

So this slothful servant, by burying his talent, effectively says, "This is not worth using." That is like the thing that God has given me, who God is Himself, I reject fully and outright. So why would that person then not be cast into outer darkness in kind of keeping with both like the, the breadth and scope of this parable, but also essentially what it's teaching about who this last, you know, servant is?

[00:48:33] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah, and you know, as you say that, I think too, um-

There's an element of this that is

Because it ties to this servant's misunderstanding of the master, and then, a- and I think you're, you're bringing Calvin in here and, and sort of the idea that our knowledge of God and our kn- knowledge of self are so, like, intertwined that it- Right ... it's almost difficult to understand which comes first.

Yes. Yes. Calvin concludes that the knowledge of God is logically prior, but he, he also acknowledges that, like, it's really tough to sort of like figure out which one is more logically prior. This servant starts from the understanding that the master is a wicked master, that he is an immoral, lazy master.

I- and it's, it's ironic. It does- the text doesn't say this, but I think it's a reasonable extrapolation. Um, the, the wicked, slothful servant projects his own wickedness and his own slothfulness onto the master, right? He, he projects that the master is a wicked man, is a hard man, and also that he's lazy. He, he does- he reaps where he doesn't sow, he gathers where he doesn't scatter.

And the action of the, of the, the character of the servant is not derived from his inaction. Right. It's his inaction that- Yes ... causes the, or it's his, his character- Character ... that drives his lack of action, right?

[00:50:12] Sheep Goats Identity

[00:50:12] Tony Arsenal: The good and faithful servants, they're not, and this is where we're gonna come when we come next week.

Like, this is where we're gonna go when we get to next week's. Just as maybe, like, I, I want you to listen next week, but you probably don't need to, 'cause I'm gonna give you the whole punchline here.

[00:50:27] Jesse Schwamb: Wow.

[00:50:27] Tony Arsenal: The sheep act like sheep because they're sheep.

[00:50:29] Jesse Schwamb: Right.

[00:50:30] Tony Arsenal: They don't become sheep because they do sheep things.

They do sheep things because they're sheep, and the goats do goat things because they're goats.

[00:50:37] Jesse Schwamb: Right.

[00:50:37] Tony Arsenal: The wicked, lazy servant does wicked, lazy servant things because he's a wicked lady- lazy servant, right? He buries the talent in the ground because he's a wicked, lazy servant. The good, faithful servants j- just do what good, faithful servants do.

They, they make a return on the master's talents because that's what they do, right? And I think where we have to be really careful and where, uh, the other pitfall that this parable can bring us to, and I kinda referenced it a little bit earlier, is there can be sort of this subtle works righteousness that creeps in, that we can believe if we're really good and productive for the kingdom, then that's what will earn us the good and faithful servant commendation when we, we cross into glory.

The reality is there are those who cross into glory and hear good and faithful servant, right? There are those who will hear, "Well done, good and faithful servant. Enter into the joy of your master." And there are those who will not. They will have what little they have taken away from them, and they will be cast into the outer darkness where there's weeping and gnashing of teeth, right?

That's not a statement on what we've earned. It's a statement on who we are.

[00:51:48] Jesse Schwamb: Right.

[00:51:49] Tony Arsenal: So you can either be the faithful servant who trusts the character of the Lord, who doesn't think Him to be a hard man, who reaps where He doesn't sow and gathers where He doesn't scatter. You can trust the master, and in the act of trusting the master and knowing His character, you just do what good, faithful servants do.

You work hard, you follow the servant, the master's lead, and you produce a return on what is there. Right? In, a- and we didn't talk about this too much. In effect, these servants are reflecting the nature of the master.

[00:52:23] Jesse Schwamb: That's right.

[00:52:23] Tony Arsenal: Because you don't get to the point where you can leave 100 years worth of wealth to one servant, and 40 years worth of wealth to another servant, and 20 years worth of wealth to another servant if you have not yourself been a productive, faithful person who knows how to reap and sow appropriately, right?

[00:52:42] Gospel Joy Or Darkness

[00:52:42] Tony Arsenal: That is the key to this parable, is that the faithful servants image their master, and the wicked lo- like, slothful servant images what he thinks his master is This is the gospel call in this passage, right? The f- the, the faithful servants trusted their master. They trusted he was good. They trusted that he, they would be rewarded when he returned if they did a good job.

Now, he- they're not rewarded necessarily because they do a good job. I mean, I think the text kinda seems like that. Right. But, but, but He just says, "You, look, you guys are good, faithful servants." He doesn't give them, like, a share of the profits. They're not, like, stakeholders in this. He just says, "Enter into my joy."

Right? What, what does that mean? I don't know. It means enter into the same joy that the master has.

[00:53:29] Jesse Schwamb: Right.

[00:53:30] Tony Arsenal: The, what the slothful servant doesn't get, he doesn't get to participate in the joy of the master, right? What little he has is taken away from him. He's cast out of the presence of the master. He doesn't get to participate in that joy.

This is a picture, loved ones, of what the gospel is, and more poignantly, it's a picture of what it means to be lost. It's a picture w- of what it means to be outside of the grace of God, to be outside of His kingdom, is that we, we just n- not only are we wicked and sloth, which is its own kind of punishment.

We're wicked and slothful, and we don't get to participate in the joy of the master. Instead, we get this outer darkness outside of His presence. Right. We're gonna talk more about what that means, because Christ pivots to now this more still kind of analogical, but more explicit teaching on what that looks like and what it means to be a productive member of the kingdom, what it means to be a faithful servant, what it means to be a wise virgin, what it means to be the, the person who seeks the pearl of great price.

Like, all of these parables we've talked about, He now in the Olivet Discourse in verses 31 and following, He's going to give us the payout of what that actually means. What does the faithful servant look like in our real world? We're not talking parables. We're not talking images. We're talking about what it actually looks like to be the faithful servant who will enjoy the, the presence and the joy of the master.

That's what we're gonna get into next week. So-

[00:55:02] Between The Advents

[00:55:02] Jesse Schwamb: And so it helps us to probably- So- ... end where we began, which was with a reminder that these parables are fundamentally about how to live between those two advents. Yeah. Christ has ascended. He's gone on a journey. He will return. The master's coming back And the church lives in this meantime, and this parable defines what the meantime requires.

Active, proportional, courageous stewardship. And the Reformed tradition, following people like Augustine and the Magisterial Reformers, have always insisted, and I love this, that eschatology is not a distraction from ethics, but it's the ground of ethics itself. Yes. And so we serve faithfully- Yes and amen

because the master is returning. And next time we're gonna get to what that all looks like when he does return, when he calls everyone to give an account. What are the theological outworkings of this entire parable after he's explained what it means to live between the advents?

[00:55:56] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah, and the, the last thing I'll say before we try to figure out how to transition this into some sort of way to say- That should be fun

our tagline.

[00:56:04] No Works Righteousness

[00:56:04] Tony Arsenal: Um, it's so important for us to understand This is not a way for us to earn righteousness, right? Right. This is not a way for us to merit our justification, and, and I think this is something where there is some disagreement in the Reformed world. I want to acknowledge that. This is not a way for us to become more sanctified, right?

I don't become more sanctified because I do good works, right? Justification, sanctification are both dual benefits that we receive m- from the Holy Spirit by faith in Christ alone, right? I don't sanctify myself any more than I justify myself or any more than I'm gonna raise myself from the dead. There is a way to read this parable where even if you're couching it in frames of sanctification where somehow we're doing that to ourselves, the reality is the faithful servants do what they do because they're faithful- That's right

not because that's what makes them faithful.

[00:56:59] Jesse Schwamb: Right. Exactly.

[00:57:00] Tony Arsenal: Right? And we're g- like I said, we're gonna pay that out a little bit more next week when we talk about the sheep and the goats, but it's important for us not to let that sit. Any interpretation of this passage that has us understanding our final eschatological destination or our final sort of, like, nature as servants of God in somehow referring to the way we've served really is not a Protestant and especially not a Reformed hermeneutic of this text.

Right. At the end of the day, the wicked, slothful servant is that because that's what he is. His actions flow out of his nature, not the other way around. So I'm super excited. I mean, I think, as I said before, we're coming up to the end of Matthew. We're kind of finishing up the Matthean parables. Um, we're gonna dip into some of the more unique ones.

If I'm being honest, like, we could end this series now because the parables in Matthew really form the backbone of Christ's parabolic ministry, his parabolic teaching. Right. The other parables that we see in the other gospels really are kind of like flavor text or like, I don't know, like, uh, deleted endings, deleted scenes if you wanna use like a movie term.

They're additional commentary on the parables, the main parabolic teaching of Christ.

[00:58:20] Study Scripture Together

[00:58:20] Tony Arsenal: Um, and, and I'm, I'm excited to get there, but this has been such an edifying, just like really like soul-quenching series for me because as I've said before, we, we haven't... I have not spent as much time working through these parables verse by verse and just really, like, thinking about them deeply as I would've liked to.

So I've loved that we've really spent that time in this series. Maybe we're just gonna become like a Bible study podcast and I'm fine with that. Because like- I love it ... I love systematic theology, and that's really my wheelhouse. I love- Mm-hmm ... historical theology. I love talking about the Confessions. But there's been something so- Soul feeding, like soul quenching Yes, life-giving About just digesting God's Word together Right So I wanna echo Jesse's recommendation earlier.

If you're looking for someone to come- somewhere to come chat about this stuff, t.me/reformedbrotherhood. It's a great place to bring up biblical questions or just to digest biblical texts together. But even more so, like Take the Bible, read it, grab a friend from church and just say, "Can we just, like, work through this together and talk about it?"

[00:59:25] Jesse Schwamb: Mm. '

[00:59:25] Tony Arsenal: Cause nothing beats going through these slowly and just saying like, "Let's really think through what this text means."

[00:59:33] Jesse Schwamb: Right.

[00:59:33] Tony Arsenal: And I just don't think we do that as much as we maybe should.

[00:59:36] Jesse Schwamb: I agree with you. And of course, like, because we're people that wanna be learned, because we are readers, because we wanna understand and gather knowledge, it sometimes causes us to quickly run to other resources, not exclusively, but sometimes outside of the Holy Spirit.

So what you just said, I was really struck with the conviction of grab somebody and open up that time by just asking that the Holy Spirit, he would illuminate, captivate, open up these scriptures to you and to those with whom you're speaking, which is often how we pray for this conversation, that that's exactly what God would do.

And so we hope that he's doing that. We hope there was something in here, and if there was anything good, all of that belongs to God. The mistakes are clearly ours. But we hope that you will take this conversation and pull it into your own life. I have to ask, when you were talking about what we're gonna talk about next week, did you actually say we're gonna, like, pay it forward?

Did you... Was that, like, a pun that you were also using, or did that just happen?

[01:00:30] Tony Arsenal: No, I think it just happened. I don't think I meant to even say that. We'll just call that providence.

[01:00:34] Jesse Schwamb: Oh, so... That was so good. I love that.

[01:00:37] Support And Sendoff

[01:00:37] Jesse Schwamb: There's one other place you can go and hang out, and that is the podcast does have a website.

Sometimes we don't talk about it, but that's because it's, like, the best-kept secret on the entire internet. I'm not being parabolic or hyperbolic at all. And if you go to reformedbrotherhood.com, what you're gonna do is find that all the episodes, all of them, are living right there. They're for you. They're just there hanging out, waiting for you to search them with keywords for something that we've probably talked about maybe eight or 10 years ago.

It's all there. You can find it. So if it's been a while and you've thought, "You know what? I wonder if there's ever been a conversation about this," if you even just wanna play the game, pick a word and go in there- ... and see what pops up. You can go find all those. And what you'll also discover is that shockingly, they're all free.

There's no cost- Yeah ... to those whatsoever. And that happens because so many loved ones join us in making sure that all the costs are covered. So my last commendation to you all is if you're thinking, "You know what? I've been listening for a little while," or maybe it's the first time, and you think, "I wanna make sure that this keeps going," we'd be so thankful if you wanna support the ministry in doing that.

And you can just go to the website, and there's a little link. You'll find your way. But it is available to those who would say, "You know what? I'd like to make sure that this is available to everybody without cost, without price, with no money. Come and listen." And that's how it's always gonna be here.

You'll notice there is no insertion for a weird purple mattress commercial. Nor will there ever be. I mean, unless they wanna give us a lot of money maybe, maybe we, maybe we would accept that. But no, we will not do that, Purple. We will never do that. You

[01:02:10] Tony Arsenal: could not give me enough money to endorse Purple Mattress-

even though I'm sitting on a Purple Mattress and it's wicked comfortable. I get zero dollars for that.

[01:02:19] Jesse Schwamb: Zero. Zero. So I-

[01:02:21] Tony Arsenal: Unless they wanna give us some money. If somehow you are an executive at Purple and wanna give us some money, we will take your money.

[01:02:27] Jesse Schwamb: A- and listen, we will not bury it. We will, we will use it-

as best we can, by God's grace, for His lovely and conquering, overwhelmingly filled with love kingdom. We will absolutely do that. And of course, we're gonna come to the real conclusion of all of this talk, all of this parable stuff next time. So even though Tony gave us, like, the reverse tease and the permission not to listen to that episode

[01:02:51] Tony Arsenal: Please listen.

Please listen to that episode.

[01:02:54] Jesse Schwamb: It's gonna be good. I can say right now it's gonna be good because God is good.

[01:02:58] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. I, I can say that God is good because we're the worst podcasters ever- That's true ... in terms of, like, our call to action is always the very last thing we do. Uh, we- we're always just, like, like, uh, the fact that anybody gives us any money is a, is a miracle- We break all the rules

because nobody who is listening to this show is still logged in to our episode. So just to wrap it up, because I don't know where we're going, I don't know how to finish this. Take us home. I'm just gonna say, Jesse, until next time, honor everyone.

[01:03:26] Jesse Schwamb: Love the brotherhood.

In Episode 496 of the Reformed Brotherhood, Tony Arsenal and Jesse Schwamb open with a rich discussion on the theology of congregational singing — including the Trinity Psalter Hymnal, the Getty's Sing!, and why psalm-singing belongs at the heart of Christian worship. The main event, however, is the first installment of their study of the Parable of the Talents (Matthew 25:14–30). Tony and Jesse argue that this parable is widely misread as a lesson in personal productivity or spiritual gift deployment, when in fact its center of gravity is entirely eschatological and theological: the wicked servant's failure is not financial incompetence — it is a catastrophic misunderstanding of who the master is, and therefore, who he himself is as a servant of that master.

Key Takeaways

• The parable is eschatological, not motivational. Situated in Matthew 25 as the second of three eschatological parables in the Olivet Discourse, the Parable of the Talents answers the disciples' question about the sign of Christ's coming — not a general lesson about using your abilities for God.
• "Talents" refers to an enormous monetary sum, not personal giftedness. A single talent represented roughly 20 years of a laborer's wages. Even the least-endowed servant received an immense, unearned gift — which makes the wicked servant's inaction all the more indefensible.
• The wicked servant's problem is theological, not financial. He doesn't bury the talent out of ignorance or fear alone — he actively mischaracterizes the master as exploitative and unjust. His failure is a failure of theology: he does not know who his master is.
• The commendation "Well done, good and faithful servant" is the basic reward of every believer, not a tiered prize for the most productive. The five-talent and two-talent servants receive identical commendations, suggesting the measure is proportional faithfulness, not absolute output.
• Faithful stewardship is active, not passive. Both faithful servants are marked by immediacy and energetic engagement. The parable does not explain how they doubled their talents because the mechanics are not the point — their disposition of active, risk-taking faithfulness is.
• The parable resists works-righteousness readings. Whether one is Augustine or an anonymous deathbed convert, every justified believer enters into the same joy of the master. The parable is not a theology of graduated heavenly rewards but a distinction between those who understand their master and those who do not.
• The talents represent the stewardship of the Gospel and the Kingdom itself. The master entrusting his servants with his property is a picture of Christ entrusting the church with the message of salvation — ownership remains with the master, the servants are stewards, not proprietors.

Key Concepts The Wicked Servant's Problem Is Who He Thinks the Master Is

The most common misreading of this parable locates the wicked servant's failure in laziness or timidity — he was simply too afraid to act. But Tony Arsenal argues compellingly that the servant's own words expose something far more serious. He says, "I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow." This is not a confession of fear; it is an accusation. The servant has constructed a theology of his master as an exploitative, unjust overseer who doesn't deserve a return. What he catastrophically misses is that the very possession of 20 years' worth of wages — an unearned, unimaginable gift — is the master sowing into him. His refusal to act is, at its root, a refusal to acknowledge the master's generosity and authority. This is the parable's most penetrating theological edge.

"Well Done" Is for Every Believer, Not Just the Most Productive

One of the episode's most pastorally significant observations is Tony's argument that the commendation "Well done, good and faithful servant — enter into the joy of your master" is not reserved for spiritual high-achievers. Because the five-talent and two-talent servants receive word-for-word identical commendations despite wildly different absolute returns, the logical entailment is that the one-talent servant, had he been faithful, would have received the same words. This means the commendation is not calibrated to productivity — it is the basic inheritance of every believer who enters glory. The soul-winner and the deathbed convert, Augustine and the unknown faithful, all hear the same welcome. The parable is therefore not teaching a graduated hierarchy of heavenly reward, but a binary distinction: those who know their master and act accordingly, and those who do not.

The Parable Cannot Be Detached from Its Eschatological Context

Jesse Schwamb is careful to anchor the parable in its literary and theological context: this is the second of three eschatological parables in Matthew 25, all part of the Olivet Discourse, all delivered in direct response to the disciples' question about the sign of Christ's return and the end of the age. Detaching the Parable of the Talents from that frame — and reading it instead as a general productivity principle or a theology of spiritual gifts — drains it of what Jesse calls its "gravity." The master going away and returning after a long time is a direct image of the ascended Christ and his parousia. The servants' task during the interval is not self-improvement or career stewardship — it is watchful, active discipleship in the time between the first and second comings. Everything in the parable, including the staggering sums of money, is calibrated to that eschatological frame.

Memorable Quotes

The real difference is that the former servants understood that their master had trusted them with a task and expected something of them, and the unfaithful, wicked, lazy servant had a total misunderstanding of who the master was — and therefore what his role as the master's servant was. That's the point of this parable. — Tony Arsenal

Well done, good and faithful servant — that's not a special commendation that only the most amazing Christian servants get. That's the basic commendation that every Christian who enters into glory will receive. Whether you have been the most productive soul-winner in the world... you're going to receive the same commendation as the person who dies, and on their deathbed the last thing that they think is, 'I trust Jesus.' — Tony Arsenal

God's measure of faithfulness is proportional, not absolute. The two-talent servant is not judged by the five-talent standard. He is judged by what he received. — Jesse Schwamb

Full Transcript

[00:00:08] Tony Arsenal: that's not a special commendation that only the most amazing Christian servants get, right?

That's the basic commendation that every Christian who enters into glory will receive. Whether you have been the most productive soul-winner in the world, whether you are the most, you know, the most sanctified Christian who's ever lived, whether you are, the most amazing person and millions of people have come to faith because of your ministry, you're going to receive the same commendation as the person who dies, and on their deathbed the last thing that they think is, I trust Jesus."

Right. And they've produced no converts, no ministry, and maybe no one even knows that they were justified, because in their final moments before the lights went out, they trusted in Jesus, right? They hear the same well done, good and faithful servant when they enter into glory. Welcome to episode 496 of the Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse.

And I'm Tony, and this is the podcast with ears to hear. Hey, brother.

[00:01:19] Jesse Schwamb: Hey, brother.

[00:01:21] Parable Teaser

[00:01:21] Jesse Schwamb: You know, the parables just keep coming for us, like we've said. And on this episode, to, just to tee it up, to whet everybody's appetites, we've got three servants, one absent master, an uncomfortable amount of money.

What could go wrong? Yeah. As it turns out, quite a bit, especially if you're the kind of person who responds to divine generosity by finding the nearest shovel. So we're gonna get to all of that in this, what I call, this now sandwich of eschatological parables or teachings of Jesus in Matthew 25. So hopefully you're curious, hopefully you're stoked.

But you can go put your thumb right in the scriptures there, because you're gonna meet us there very, very, very, very shortly. But first we got business. It's always the business we must do, the part of the podcast where we affirm with something or deny against something. And as always, I'm really curious what you have, and now I understand you have a list, or you're keeping a list.

So- I do ... never again will there be something like that falls to the cutting room floor, brothers and sisters. Tony is always gonna have for us whatever was- ... what came to his brilliant mind as an affirmation or denial at any point, day or night.

[00:02:29] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. Do you, Jesse, do you ever have... I know the answer to this question is going to be yes- Yeah.

That's good ... but I'm gonna ask it- All right ... mostly for rhetorical effect here. This is good podcasting.

[00:02:38] Psalm 67B Praise

[00:02:38] Tony Arsenal: Do you have, do you have those situations where, like, the, the so- a song hits you, and it's just, like, the right combination of words, but also the right combination of, like, musicality?

[00:02:49] Jesse Schwamb: For sure.

[00:02:50] Tony Arsenal: Where it just, like, it just, it just feels- For sure

like, right and good in every part of your being. So- All the time, yep ... I, I'm affirming, um, th- this is like the most Presbyterian thing ever. I'm affirming the, the arrangement in the Trinity, uh, psalter hymnal for Psalm 67B. Now, I'm not gonna try to sing it for you, but I wanna read the words, because obviously it's, it's a paraphrase of a psalm.

So, like, that's the first thing. Like, people, like, calm down. Like, it's okay to sing paraphrases. It's okay to sing. No one is actually singing the Hebrew psalms. Right. Amen. So, like, just calm down a little bit. Amen. Uh, there is a place for us to dedicate specific focus to psalms and songs that are from the psalms, but that can be something like Better Is One Day.

Like, that's a song from a psalm. Anyway, that's a whole different, that's a whole different thing. Yes, I'm affirming psalm singing. Uh, yes, I'm denying overly rigid understandings of what that is. But here's the words for Psalm 67, Setting B. That's important It's, "O God, show mercy to us and bless us with your grace and cause to shine upon us the brightness of your face, so that the whole world over may truly know your way and so that your salvation all nations see displayed.

O God, let peoples praise you. Let all the peoples praise. Let nations come rejoicing and songs of gladness rise, raise." Then, um, stanza two, "For you will judge the peoples with perfect equity. To nations of the whole Earth a governor you'll be. O God, let the peoples praise you. Let all the peoples praise.

The Earth has brought its bounty throughout its harvest days.

[00:04:24] Why Sing Psalms

[00:04:24] Tony Arsenal: Since God our God will bless us, yes, God will blessing send, that all the Earth may fear Him to its remotest end." Now, there are lots of really great, uh, theologically sound, edifying hymns and worship choruses, but there's just something about the Psalms, right?

It's inspired- Um- ... it's perfect. Again, like I said, nobody is singing the actual Hebrew Psalms, or even, I shouldn't say nobody, most people are not singing, like, the Psalms from the ESV, right? These are almost all paraphrases. They're, they're translations. But there's just something about the Psalms that I have grown so much to appreciate since joining a Presbyterian church.

That's not to say other traditions don't sing Psalms in their own right, and again, like, we would sing Better Is One Day and other songs that were based on Psalms. Um, even, like, real direct translations or real direct versions of Psalms, like Better Is One Day or Create In Me A Clean Heart, there's all sorts of them.

But there's just something about singing the Psalms, and this particular musical setting, it's triumphant, but not in the, like, fanfare kind of triumphant. Do you know what I mean, Jesse? Like- Mm-hmm ... it's, it's a triumphant melody, and it has, like, really interesting rises and falls and... So I, I'm gonna probably try to put this at the end of the episode.

So listen. Hopefully I'll get the whole thing. Let me just, let me just do this. Hold on a second.

It's just gorgeous. It's just beautiful. So I, I, I don't know what it was this morning. Uh, it's, I wasn't, like, promo- particularly emotional. It didn't, like, make me cry. Yeah. But all of that's fine. Like, I've been brought to tears in worship before, and that's, that's all good and well. There was just something about it that resonated, and I was like, "This is just good."

Like, this is just good music. It's good singing. Something about hearing, uh, the whole congregation singing together. Like, it was just beautiful. It was just a beautiful moment. So if you are not in a psalm-singing church, first of all, why aren't you in a psalm-singing church? Uh, no worship leader on Earth, no, no person who is worth...

Uh, when I say worship leader, I mean the person who's responsible for leading musical worship. No one who's leading worshipful music, worshipful? Worship music, if you approach them and say, "I would like to sing more songs that are based on the Psalms," if they say, "We don't wanna sing Psalms here," then you just go somewhere else.

Like, someone who tells you, like, "We don't wanna s- we don't wanna sing God's Word," that doesn't make any sense to me.

[00:06:56] Jesse Schwamb: Right.

[00:06:56] Tony Arsenal: Um, now again, like, there's a way to do it. Sometimes musically they're challenging, especially if you're singing out of something like the hymnal. But again, there are plenty of really good modern style songs and hymn style songs that are either based on the Psalms or are paraphrases, very similar to what you get in the, in the Trinity Psalter Hymnal.

Or most, most people who are leading in musical worship are competent enough to just sort of take the sheet music and figure out how to do it on guitar or figure out how to play it on piano. Um, they're not that difficult. So you will be edified if you do this. Your church will be edified. There's probably a lot of people out there responsible for musical worship that actually would really like to do this, and they're kind of probably, like, just waiting for that nudge, so you may even be benefiting them.

But yeah, this, this psalm is beautiful. It's just a gorgeous arrangement, and it's, it's perfect, inspired words. Really was a, just a, a balm to my soul this morning.

[00:07:51] Jesse Schwamb: I love it. And o- of course, a lot of that is still happening, which is such a glorious gift to the church. The couple of times that I've had the privilege of writing music for my own church has been right from the scriptures, and for me recently that was, like, Ephesians 1 and Psalm 16.

And that's mainly because, like, as a lyricist, I'm not that creative, and I'd rather go direct to the source. And all those end up being a paraphrase, like you said, anyway. Es- especially if you wanna get turn of phrase or if you wanna have a little bit of rhyming, which is always a beautiful thing. I love the Psalter, and my, my hot take on that is I sometimes find that I like, I don't wanna call them, like, the alternate, but, like, the other secondary arrangements-

Yeah

and

lyrics better. I don't know why. I don't think that's purposeful, of course. It's probably just my taste. But I always find them to be, like, super fire. I, I don't know why. The, the B and C versions always kinda grab me, especially if... And here's another thing that I appreciate about the Psalter, as you know, is sometimes those B or C versions will be written in an alternate key or a minor key.

Yeah. And that's even more awesome, because there's not a lot of, let's say, like, cla- I don't wanna say classic. Classic slash contemporary, uh, Christian music or wors- quote-unquote worship music that's written in minor keys. But it's good to lament, as we've talked about before. So- Yeah ... you're gonna get that full breath and scope in the Psalter there.

[00:09:06] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.

[00:09:07] Beyond Music Styles

[00:09:07] Tony Arsenal: A- and, you know, maybe let me put in one more little plug here. Um- I am not one of those people that is gonna say that there's like a particular style of music that's more godly than another. I've heard people try to make arguments that there's like certain kinds of rhythms or certain kinds of like beats that are- Right

either, either more godly or somehow demonic or less godly. Um, I think there might be an argument to be made that some styles of worship are not suited well for congregational singing, so they may not be appropriate for like a, a congregational worship service. Like, you're probably not gonna go in and do a lot of hip hop and have the congregation be able to like stick with you.

Right. That doesn't mean that you can't worship God through that or that it somehow is less like intrinsically beautiful. But, um, there are a lot of Let me just put it this way. In modern contemporary Western Christianity, uh, there's a lot of songs that are basically just the same thing musically. You know, you'll find, um, if you go to, like, YouTube, and, and maybe, like, be careful, 'cause sometimes some of these are, they're funny but they're a little bit crass.

But if you look up, like, a video about how, like, every song is Pachel Bell's Canon. Right. Right? Every song follows the same basic arrangement of chords, and this gets even more pronounced when you're talking about modern worship music or contemporary mu- worship music, because it's designed to be able to be very simple and very easily played.

Um, a lot of times worship directors are not super classically trained. Um, you think of, like, the youth pastor with the guitar around the campfire. Like, those kinds of songs have to be easy, 'cause they're not, like, classically trained guitar players. They probably picked up a chord book and figured out how to play a couple easy songs like Jesus, Lover of My Soul and things like that.

That's how I learned how to play guitar. That's the extent of my skills, so I'm not, I'm not banging on that person. Um, but there are a lot, there's a lot more to music. Um, there's a lot more to singing, and there's a lot more to choral music than, you know, GCDC kind of like worship courses. Uh, and singing something like the Psalter, or even just singing out of a good hymnal- Right

will actually expand your musical horizons. And there's something to be said about the creativity of our God being reflected in the creativity of His people that I do think we miss out on when we are locked into really simplistic worship styles. Um, again, like, I interpret Psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs to mean, like, sing in the vernacular of the people.

Um, and I, you know, that's a different episode. We can talk about that sometime. But th- that, that requires the songs to be singable, and I think sometimes, uh, sometimes some of the song- some of the Psalters, some of the songs in the Psalter hymnals, and sometimes hymnals in general, are very difficult to sing.

And so I think a congregation, the people leading in music need to be thoughtful of that. But I think you would do well to, like, open your horizons a little bit to something a little bit more challenging and a little bit off the beaten path. Like, this melody, I don't know the chords behind it. It may not be anything crazy, but that, like, musicality and that, that sort of, like, melody is not a typical...

And this might be why it resonated with me. It's not a typical kind of melody you're gonna find in contemporary music. Um, it's, it's very different. It's older. It's more classically styled. The, it's, it's meant to sort of bring you up to these crescendos in ways that modern music is not necessarily. So enough about that.

I don't know a lot about music theory, so I might be totally wrong and, and- ... people might be rolling their eyes. But I, I do think that there's something to it. Like, a lot of the older hymns- utilize chord progressions and melodies and harmonies and things like that that we're just not used to. You're not gonna get that listening to, you know, even something like, like the more musical kind, uh, more technically proficient music like something like Bethel or Hillsong, which is at times musically very good.

Uh, I don't know that I would recommend listening to it, but the music is actually, like, technically very good in some instances. Uh, even there you're not gonna find a lot of this stuff. So instead of going there for, like, really nice sounding musical worship, just go to something like the Trinity Psalter app.

You know, for $10 on a- on your iPhone you can sing with it. Um, yeah, enough about that. I, I, I could talk about how great the Psalms are and how great psalm singing is for an entire episode. We should do that episode- We should ... when we're done with the parables, 'cause I know we've done a lot of episodes on, like, uh, on, on, like, the regulative principle and- Right

I, I think we're still both in the same spot that, like- Right ... exclusive psalmody is probably not where we would land. Right. But I think I'm coming to the conviction that the psalms should have a much greater portion of our worship diet, uh- Hmm ... than they do in most churches. Um, and I really only came to that conviction when I was in a church where psalm singing was the norm.

Uh, I know that we try to have at least one s- one canonical psalm for every single worship service. Usually there's multiple, but, um, even in a, a, a setting where we normally wouldn't be so focused on that, we still try to have at least one, and it's been a, a really huge edifying thing to my soul.

[00:14:06] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. I absolutely love that.

You'll find no complaint from me on that. I think that that's a good reminder for all of us.

[00:14:13] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.

[00:14:14] Book Sing Recommendation

[00:14:14] Tony Arsenal: Jesse, what do you have?

[00:14:15] Jesse Schwamb: Well, it's, we're not gonna stop this conversation, just so you know. Because we don't sync up on these things ever, but it just so happens that I'm affirming with a book that it's a really simple primer on congregational singing-

There you go

that has

long been on my list and overdue to read, and I am coming in hot with a recommendation for this, and that is the book entitled Sing! How Worship Transforms Your Life, Family, and Church by Keith and Kristyn Getty. And really, it covers so many of the things that you already talked about. I, I think at the foremost, it's a reminder that God cares whether in what we sing, but he does not mind how well we sing.

Yes. But it is, like, the, this... What's true is that our voices might not be of a professional standard, but they are of a confessional standard. Yeah. And so it is incumbent upon every Christian to sing. And if you need just, like, a little bit of inspiration, so to speak, or a reminder of why that's important, I highly commend this book to you.

In fact, in the back they have what's called, like, these bonus tracks. It's like four or five separate chapters that they've written just to particular people in the church, pastors, laypeople, musicians, even the people that help produce the sound. I found that bit to be so lovely and pastoral. It, it's gentle, the tone is encouraging, but it is also strong, and I appreciate that.

So a lot of it is some of the themes that we've just talked about, but my conviction grows all the time of just how important congregational singing is, and how everything you just said, the music, the liturgy that we bring forward- has to be of a deliberate kind to strengthen that exercise, to make it easy, so to speak.

And that does come into practical things like if you look at the psalter, and I, I don't... I have it on my phone, but I don't know where my phone is, so I was gonna look at the one you were referencing. My guess is it's, it's in probably a key with a couple of sharps in it, because those are the ones that are easiest to sing.

So even little things like that matter. What you hear on the radio often is, or radio? People still listen to the radio? What you hear, like, in, like, contemporary music, like, often is not necessarily for congregational singing just in its key, and, and that's okay. And so even in my own church, we transpose things to make it reasonable and approachable.

But what I think was, like, the critical question put forward in this book that I absolutely loved as a great reminder was: how did the congregation sing? It's very interesting that they kind of bring forward this thesis that that's how you should be judging your music. How did the congregation sing? And I think if we started asking that, it might slightly tweak or maybe change altogether, to your point, the methods and the practices that we use when we undergo worship by way or through music.

So this is really great. It's easily readable, and it's for everybody, and it, there's a chapter on family worship as well, how to bring singing into your home and music into your home all the time as an act of worship so that when you get to the Lord's Day, your kids are like, "Yeah, this is our jam." Uh, especially maybe even recognizing some of the pieces of music and be excited about that.

So there was a lot that made me think about here. It's fantastic. And to your point, Tony, I would say the Gettys, especially in, like, "Christ Alone," some of the other things, this is probably the closest to what you're talking about, where they've taken and imported kind of the classical hymn structures-

[00:17:26] Tony Arsenal: Yeah

[00:17:27] Jesse Schwamb: but modernized a little bit just the language while without sacrificing any of the theological richness or the musicality that draws your ear to those beautiful rising and falling melodies, the swelling of the vocal there, without, like, distracting from anything that's going on there. It's not emotionalism- Yeah

but it certainly is filled with the emotion of what it means to be a Christian and to sing in response as an act of praise to God.

[00:17:50] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.

[00:17:52] Family Worship Singing

[00:17:52] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, I mean, I can't underscore enough the importance of congregational singing. We, we've, we've actually talked about, about it in context of, like, how important it is for the men of the congregation to sing, which is something I, I really appreciate about my congregation, is, is the m- the men just go all out.

Like, people are, like- Love it ... nobody is, nobody is ashamed of the fact that they squawk on a note that they're not used to or anything like that. And where this really pays out, um, at least in our congregation, but I'd, I'd be willing to bet if you go to any congregation where the, where the men particularly are passionate and active in musical worship, right?

Um, I think where this plays out is you see the children very quickly picking up those songs and learning them and singing them. And the, the favorite part of my day, this is gon- any parent of toddlers is gonna be like, "What are you talking about?" Bedtime is one of my favorite times of day, not just because it means that, like, in a little while I'm gonna get a little peace and quiet.

Like, that's part of it, too, but there are two songs that we sing almost every single night, and Augie leads them, which is really great. He always wants to start, and he always wants to sing, and it's the Doxology and the Gloria Patri. And these are songs that he has just picked up from being in the congregation, and, you know, I, I don't remember consciously teaching him any of these songs.

And now, now Adeline, who is, uh, my two-year-old daughter, almost two, she's starting to pick those songs up, and she's starting to sing them, and she recognizes them, and she responds very differently to those songs than she does to other songs. Um, it's funny because I don't, I don't know where she got this.

Neither my wife nor I are particularly, uh, charismatic, emotive people. Like, we don't raise our hands when we're singing, but she, she does. She, she, when we start singing- My girl ... the Gloria Patri or the Doxology, her hand is in the air, and she's looking at the sky, and she's waving her hands around. Yeah.

And, um, she recognizes that those songs have a different place than a Miss Rachel song. She doesn't put her hands in the air and wave and look up at the ceiling when Miss Rachel comes on or when Baby Shark comes on. She knows those songs. She can sing those songs. Um, but she doesn't- Respond to those in the same way.

And that is a direct result of the fact that congregational singing is an important thing in the life of our church and in the life of our family. And I think a book like Sing, I haven't read it, but I've heard very good things about it, and the, the Gettys are rock solid, like- Right ... theologically. Yes.

Musically. They're, they're well within our Reformed tradition, at least broadly speaking. Um, and, and they have a, they have one of the strongest sort of theologies of praise music that you're gonna find. Mm-hmm. It's not quite like a liturgiology or something like that, but it's, it's, it's a theology of praise worship, praise and worship music.

Right. Um, and that's not something that's super common, right? There's a lot of theology of liturgy. There's a lot of practical theology on liturgy. Um, the Gettys have developed a really unique kind of place in things in that they've really developed this idea that congregational singing has a specific theological import, and they've developed it in a way that's approachable.

So yeah, I haven't read it and I sh- I probably should, but it, it sounds like a really great book. And, um, I c- just can't underscore it enough. And- Maybe this is my little plug. Like, uh, family worship is really tough, and it's not something I've mastered. Like, we don't, we, we don't have a regular rhythm. But what we do have is we have a consistent, uh, we consistently pray at night before bed, and we consistently sing one or both of those songs.

And that by itself, like, the kids are learning and they are, they're absorbing that by osmosis. Um, they're picking up the phrasing, right? Augie can tell you who the three persons of the Trinity are, and that's partially 'cause we do catechism questions, but it's also partially, and I would actually argue probably more, because of the Trinitarian structure of those two songs.

Right. He's picked up the language of the Father, the Spirit, and the Son from the Gloria Patri and from the doxology in ways that probably I wouldn't have been able to teach him otherwise. So yeah. Anyway, I, I just co-opted your affirmation. But, um, but yeah. I'm here for it. Congregational worship, family worship, singing, uh, to our Lord is commanded, and it's commanded for our good- Right

and for his, his benefit and his blessing. Um, and so any book that is, is solid and will help you do that, I, I'm wholeheartedly behind.

[00:22:17] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. This is... All that is fire. This is fire.

[00:22:19] Reclaim Congregational Song

[00:22:19] Jesse Schwamb: God designed our psyche for singing, and we're probably, uh, I would say contractually obligated since Reformed is in the name of the title of the podcast-

to remind ourselves and everybody else that one of the things the Reformation did was reclaim the singing of God's word by his own people. Yes. Taking it out of that performatory space back into literally the voice boxes of the people who are sitting in worship together. So sometimes we might have to do that again.

You know, there is a little bit, I think, of... There, there is in some places, not everywhere, this kind of tilting of that time of worship through music to be vouchsafed or relegated to those who are, uh, let's say, like, the most, like, talented in doing that, and somehow we participate merely by observing or by- Yeah

just, uh, you know, being an audience spectator of that, and that's totally backwards. So I get it. The thing is- We're all singers. We may not all be very good singers, but we're all created to be singers nonetheless. This is what the Bible tells us. So we need to lean into that. We need to invest in that.

Yeah. And so I, I like, of course, what you're doing with, uh, your kids because you're not only teaching them to sing, and this makes me so happy, but you're teaching them to love singing to the Lord. Yeah. And so that is, I think, what a lot of our congregations miss, is sometimes we do it, and I'm among them often, but grudgingly.

And so to get to a place where we come excited that our reasonable response, our reasonable preparation on the Lord's day is to sing together, to hear that gospel message in melody in the ear of our... You know, the voice of our neighbor in our own ear is a wild thing. It's just, like, un- unheard of. And it's like, uh, we gotta stop, right?

It's one of those things also that, like- ... we've, we've talked about how it's just kind of otherworldly. Not, not only in the sense that it gives us this really kind of foundational sense of God's, you know, kind of transcendence, of what it means to participate in the worship of someone who is transcendent because it is all these voices together, but also this is something that rarely happens in any other way, especially in the Western culture anymore.

This coming together to express and to participate in something where we're all reading literally from the same sheet music is just an entirely different experience, increasingly relegated to this kind of experience. So we, we must protect it, not only because God says that we ought to, but also because, again, it is, it is our reasonable response.

Yeah. And it is something, like you've just said, that brings Him glory and is certainly for our good. So, uh, this is the Singcast, so everybody- ... everybody get to it. You can make your own music. God has commanded us to sing. So the sooner we just understand, like, hey, it's, it's... You know. Uh, but... And the last thing I'll say is this is one of those things that's, like, practice too.

A- and I get it. Like, you may say, like, "Listen, I can only hit two notes, and that's all I'm gonna hit no matter what the music is." Well, then belt the two notes, and also know that, like, the more you practice that kind of thing, honestly, the better that you'll get and the more comfortable that you'll become.

The voice is an instrument like any other instrument that takes, like, a little bit of practice and a little bit of work. But even that can cause, I think, great benefits and build a little bit of confidence. But just the example of singing and doing it from a heart that is keen to worship God and that is filled with passion to respond to Him with gratitude and, you know, adoration is really the key thing.

And so I, I'd rather have a entire group full of worshipers that are singing off-key but, like, with just resounding passion than to have this performance of just a handful of voices because they feel like they're the most capable to do it. Yeah. I think we'd, we'd rather have everybody else, and to hear the congregation mixed as one of those instruments.

So sing. Yeah.

[00:26:05] Everyone Can Sing

[00:26:05] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, and y- you and I have made the point in the past, too, like- I, I don't think, uh, maybe I'm wrong. Uh, we are a top 50 healthcare podcast, so maybe some doctor- I'm sure you're correct ... is gonna... Right. Like, I don't think being tone deaf is actually a physical condition. Like- Mm. I, I mean, I, I mean, obviously, like, some people have hearing problems, and that means they have trouble singing.

I hear what you're saying. But, like, the people who are like, "Well, I j- I just can't sing. I'm just not capable of that," uh, like, I think the, the physical conditions that would make you incapable of singing are not usually what people are talking about. Like- Right. Yeah ... you know, some people have, like, vocal fold disorders or they have hearing problems, and I guess maybe, like, if perfect pitch is a thing, which it, it is.

Like, perfect pitch is a... I don't know what causes it, but some people are born with perfect pitch. I suppose in theory that means some people must be born with, like, the opposite of perfect pitch. But I think most people who say, like, "Well, I just, I'm just tone deaf. I can't carry a tone," that, that's probably not true.

Like, it just means you need practice. Um, and some people's voices, like physically, their bodies are more, more designed by God to produce a pleasant sound than other people. But I, I think actually just about anybody with a little bit of practice, and mostly I think this is probably just the confidence to actually sing and a little bit of practice to learn how your body works, like how your voice works, um, could probably get to a point where singing is not only very relatively comfortable and easy, but it's something that is pleasant and is not overly challenging.

This is actually something that I think we've lost in the church. We should... This, I mean, this is about to come the episode, but, um- ... something we've lost in the church when we have sort of changed from a true genuine congregational singing model, which was the norm- And I've heard people make arguments about the importance of hymnals, and I, I agree with those arguments, although I know some people have moved them into almost like a realm of, like, divine mandate- Right

that you have to use hymnals because it trains people to teach. But we have lost something with both the sort of commercialization of worship music and the pro- like making it a professional thing, and we've lost congregational singing. The, the people in the church throughout history have learned to sing.

Many of them have learned to read, learned the scriptures, learned theology, not in the seminary and not in the monastery, but in the pew as they sing God's word and as they sing- Right ... the great theological hymns of, of the church. There's so much you can learn through that process that I just think we've lost.

And I think going back to something like a hymnal or the Trinity Psalter Hymnal or whatever, whatever standard music your church is gonna use, and I mean standard music. Like, whether this is a collection of worship choruses that has been curated for the church or it's a published hymnal or something like that, going back to something like that teaches the church how to sing.

And I don't remember who wrote it, but the trellis and the vine, like the worship that we sing, I know Mike Horton makes this point. The worship that we sing is the tre- is the trellis that the vine of our wor- of our- Yes ... faith grows on, right? That's true. Like, what the, what the church lex credendi, lex orandi.

Like, the church, what the church prays, the church believes. What the church sings, the church believes. So all of that to say, like, the, the importance of congregational singing can't be under-emphasized, and it's... I, I mean, I don't know that I would I don't know that most theologists say technically s- like, congregational singing is an element of worship, but praising the Lord through song certainly is.

Yes. It's, it's evidence. Um, and, and so I think that's definitely something that the church has lost in general. Um, and I know there are churches... I- it's funny, when Ashley and I were between churches, uh, very briefly after, um, our previous church closed down, um, we went to a local sort of, like, high, high, uh, production, seeker-sensitive church, very Steven Furtick-esque, and we only lasted, like, 10 minutes in this, in this service.

We went in and the production value was great, and the music sounded great, but we couldn't hear ourselves, we couldn't sing- Right ... and it was very performative, and we just left. We were only there for a few minutes, and we left. And I think that's something we've lost as we've sort of migrated worship to almost, like, a professional class.

So yeah, bring it back to the pews. Bring it back to your- Bring it back ... bring it back to your house, bring it back to your kid's bedroom when you're tucking them in. Everywhere. Bring it back to the car on the way to work, in the bus. Right. Like, just let's everywhere we go, let's sing and worship the Lord.

[00:30:30] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, that's right.

[00:30:31] Train Your Voice

[00:30:31] Jesse Schwamb: Uh, so as a final thing, let me compound your hot take and say that I agree with you, that I... And I think professionals would as well, and I'm gonna stand on a resource that I'm gonna recommend to everybody here in a second, that in fact the Getty say, "If you can speak, you can sing." And there are a f- a few conditions that would prevent you from doing that, of course.

And even there, they wanna explore opportunities for you, for instance, signing, for instance, to ensure that you can participate in worship. Uh, the hot take is I do think that because the instrument that God has given us in the vocal cords is exactly that, that it can be trained, and that actually most people can sing.

And if you're serious about that, if you think, "You know what? I'd like to be able to do that. How can I explore that?" Here's a book for you. It's called Set Your Voice Free by Roger Love. The full title is How to Get the Singing or Speaking Voice You Want. Roger Love is, like, this amazing behind-the-scenes vocal coach.

He has coached, like, a ton of really talented recording artists, and this is his very contention in the book, is that everybody can sing. It's really about how much or little work you wanna put into it. And in fact, this book comes with, like, these exercises that you can listen to and then record yourself.

And then he, from a distance basically, can give you some pointers based on allowing you to kinda evaluate what you hear in your own recording back. So if you really are the kind of person that's like, "Listen, I, I dare you. I cannot sing," I would challenge you, I would double dog dare you to get this book, Set Your Voice Free, and if you're really serious about wanting to try and see if it can make a difference, I, I think it can.

And I've, I myself have enjoyed this book, gone back to it many times, use it in my own work and practice because I found it to be helpful. So there you go. Sing, sing, and sing again.

[00:32:06] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.

[00:32:07] Singing Apps and Practice

[00:32:07] Tony Arsenal: And if you're not a reader, first of all, why are you listening to the podcast? But second of all, if for some reason you're not a reader

I'm, I'm joking. I'm sure there are people that are listening to the podcast who are not readers. That was, like, a super smug thing to say. How dare you. I'm sorry about that. How dare you. Um, if for some reason you don't wanna read that book or you're not a reader, um, y- you can do something as simple as looking up Yousician on your

Yousician, Y-O-U- Yeah ... S-I, like the word musician, but U instead of, like, Y-O-U instead of, uh, musician. Um, there are plenty of apps out there. I just, I mention Yousician just because I've used that on, like, a free trial basis with some guitar teaching, and it's a reputable source. They also have a vocal module.

So, like, if you wanna learn to sing, there are plenty of resources out there who can help you train your voice. A- and it- Again, I'm not a doctor, I'm not a vocal coach, I'm not a professional singer. I'm not even that great of a singer, and I, I probably could be a better singer if I wanted to devote the time to it.

Um, it doesn't take much to, to be able- Right ... to become a competent singer. Um, I think most of us, you pick up one s- just like I learned guitar, you pick one or two songs that you really like and you wanna learn, and you learn to sing those songs, and then those skills will develop over time. So enough about that, Jesse.

We've got, speaking of talents- ... we've got some talents to talk about. There it is. Boom, bazinga. Baza-bazom. I'm

[00:33:27] Jesse Schwamb: back. There it is. Yeah, so- I was excited

[00:33:31] Tony Arsenal: about that one ...

[00:33:32] Jesse Schwamb: that, that was really good. And, and we should just h- honor everyone. That's it.

[00:33:37] Tony Arsenal: That's it. Tip your waiters and waitresses, folks. It

[00:33:39] Jesse Schwamb: was so good.

We're here all week.

[00:33:41] Parable Context Setup

[00:33:41] Jesse Schwamb: So we're in Matthew 25, uh, verses 14 through 28, and this is at least gonna be a two-parter for us. This goes by the name you might be familiar of, which is The Parable of the Talents. But before we get to it, just a quick reminder that we've been speaking about this parable, not like in a special way, but hopefully in the more contextual sense.

So this is the second of three eschatological parables in Matthew 25. So the first was The 10 Virgins, which we went through. We're in The Talents, and then we're coming up to everybody's favorite, The Sheep and the Goats. All three are part of this Olivet Discourse, which is, of course, Jesus' final teaching block before his Passion.

And I think it h- behooves us so that we do not get distracted from, like, the center of gravity of this thing, that this is delivered in response to the disciples' question about the sign of his coming and the age to come. Because I've heard so many, like, little talks, maybe homilies is more the right word, on this particular parable that lack gravity.

So little gravity that basically NASA could train their astronauts in it. So we wanna stay away from that and I think get into, like, the, the proper context. So Tony, do you have it in front of you by any chance? And would

[00:34:50] Tony Arsenal: you- I do. I do, yeah. Yeah. Read it for us? I'll read it here.

[00:34:52] Reading the Parable

[00:34:52] Tony Arsenal: So this is, uh, starting in, uh, Matthew 25 verse 14, and I'm gonna read down through, uh, the end of verse 30 here.

So it, it reads here, "For it will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servants and entrusted them, entrusted to them his property. To one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one, to each according to his ability. Then he went away. He who had received the five talents went at once and traded with them, and he made five talents more.

So also he who had the two talents made two talents more. But he who had received the one talent went and dug in the ground and hid his master's money. Now after a long time, the master of those servants came and settled accounts with them. And he who had received the five talents came forward bringing five talents more, saying, 'Master, you delivered to me five talents.

Here I have made five talents more.' His master said to him, 'Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little. I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.' And he also who had the two talents came forward, saying, "Master, you delivered to me two talents. Here I have made two talents more."

His master said to him, "Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little. I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master." He also who had received one talent came forward, saying, "Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you scattered no seed.

So I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground. Here, you have what is yours." But his master answered him, "You wicked and slothful servant. You knew that I reap where I have not sown and gather where I scattered no seed? Then you ought to have invested my money with the bankers, and at my coming, I should have received what was my own with interest.

So take the talent from him who gave it, who give it to him who has 10 talents. For to everyone who has will more be given, and he will have an abundance. For, uh, but from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness in that place where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

[00:36:56] Watchfulness and Stewardship

[00:36:56] Jesse Schwamb: So it starts with that amazing connective, which we really spoke about in the last episode, in verse four- 14, starting with four. So it's tying, like we said, this parable directly to verse 13, which we know is in the, the parable of the ten virgins. But it's this idea of watchfulness. "Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour."

So th- I think this is the point we really drove last time, that we really felt highly convicted about, that this parable is not like a detached economic lesson, but it's really like an expedition, exposition, not expedition- ... of what watchful discipleship actually looks like during the interval of the master's absence.

Like, that's the whole setup here. So it's starting with this idea of like the master goes away, but here we have these slaves or these servants who are entrusted. And to me, again, that's like such a linchpin in this whole thing, 'cause it's, it's carrying the sense that of course, like, he's handing over stewardship.

It's a deposit held on another's behal- I love this parable because it has some banking language in it. It's, it's a deposit held on another's behalf, and that's like the key covenant concept of the entire thing. Ownership remains with the master. The servants are stewards. They're not proprietors. And that language, I think, really anticipates, like, the entire New Testament theology of stewardship, which is developed by Paul.

So like when Paul writes in 1 Corinthians, "This is how one should regard us, as servants of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God. Moreover, it is required of stewards that they be found faithful." So like all of that, that's like just one verse for me. Like, that's an incredible setup.

[00:38:27] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.

[00:38:28] Common Misreadings

[00:38:28] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, and you know, I think it bears saying, too, um, I wanna be careful how I say this because I don't wanna impugn, uh, poor motives or anything like that on, on the, the people that I'm about to speak to.

And I say this a little bit tongue in cheek, but also I say this as someone who used to be deeply involved in youth ministry. There's kind of like a, a youth ministry, um- international version of the Bible, I guess, if you wanna put it that way, where, like, there are certain, certain passages and parables that s- for some reason seem really prone to misapplication- Sure

in, in some context. And I would say, like, youth ministry is the one I have in mind. Like, um, one of them is, like, in Matthew 18 where it's like, "Where two or three are gathered in my name, there I am in the midst of them." Like, that's a, that's a statement about God's, God's presence in the judgment of the church and excommunicating an un- like, a, an unrepentant, uh, person who identifies with Christ.

And, and ironically here, maybe not ironically, but, like, casting them into the outer darkness of excommunication, which is representative of casting them out into the actual inner darkness of damnation. Right. Like, th- there's a, there's a misapplication of that, that like, well, you know, like, if only a couple people came to youth group tonight, like, it's still worth meeting because where two or three are gathered, there I am in the midst of them.

Um, this, this parable has a very similar kind of misapplication that is maybe a, a little bit less of a misapplication. Like, I think there is something to say in this parable about the fact that God entrusts us with abilities, talents, treasure, t- our time. Like, He's entrusted us with resources, and He does expect us to use those resources, uh, in a way that is honoring to Him and beneficial for the, for the gospel and for the kingdom.

Um, that's true in a broad sense, but I don't think actually that this is what that... But, like, that's not what this passage- Mm ... is teaching. Right. I think I, I kinda joked last time, but, like, I've heard more than one sermon that draws the parallel between the word talent here and our talents in terms of, like, our spiritual gifts or our ability to play guitar or, like, to bounce a basketball and, like, thr- like, throw a free throw.

Like, that's not the kinda talent we're talking about here. So I wanna, I wanna sorta, like, point that out just to sort of exclude that from the conversation. Yes, God gifts His people, and He expects His people to use those gifts for His glory and for their own benefit. Um, but that's not what this parable is talking about.

This is a parable about the fact that God has entrusted the kingdom of heaven on Earth to His people.

[00:41:08] Jesse Schwamb: That's right.

[00:41:08] Tony Arsenal: And He expects His people to make use of that in a way that expands the kingdom and also in a way that does not... And this is, this is, I actually think, the main point of the parable. In a way that properly understands the nature of the king.

The, the punchline or the main point of the parable here, it, just to sort of, like, I don't know, give away the ending or, like, unbury the lead, I don't know, whatever that is. The point of this parable- It's not that, like, it's a really good thing to double what God has resourced you with. The point of the parable, the reason that, just like the, um, just like it wasn't the virgins falling asleep in the last parable that was the problem because everybody fell asleep, in this instance, uh, the amount of money or the amount of return on investment that the servants produce is not the point of the parable.

That's not the real difference between them. The real difference is that the former servants understood that their master had trusted them with a task and expected something of them, and the, the unfaithful, wicked, lazy servant had a total misunderstanding of who the master was- Right ... and therefore what his role as the master's servant was.

That's the point of this parable, and I think, this is the last thing I'll say before I, I, I take a breath here. There's a lot of people that would look at this parable and might read some sort of works righteousness or, um, and this is more understandable and I think has a place within the Reformed tradition, although I don't necessarily hold this view.

But would look at this as sort of like a theology which would, would argue that we receive some sort of enhanced rewards in heaven based on our faithfulness. There's plenty of good, faithful Reformed Bible teachers that would hold that position. I actually think whether or not that's true, this is still also not what this passage is getting at.

[00:43:00] Jesse Schwamb: I, I totally agree with you there.

[00:43:02] Talents as Huge Wealth

[00:43:02] Jesse Schwamb: I, I think one of the reasons that we know that is because we can look at some of these details and let the details speak to us about the magnitude in their representation, why they're given. So of course, whenever the scripture gives us detail, especially in a context like a parable, it can be helpful of cour- of course not to overanalyze them, but to respect their place in the context of the story, and that's why verse 15 I think is so important.

So to one he gave five talents, to another two, to another one, to each according to his ability, then he went away. Now, this, this varies slightly, but there's a lot of, I think, very common historicity here that points us to understanding, like, the talents as a unit of monetary weight, and there is some discrepancy about its exact weight.

But what we can say for sure is this: that we're talking about, as I teased at the beginning, a huge sum of money. So in other words, like, this is a gift from God himself. It's a divine gift. Yeah. It's something that's not earned. It's something that's given and something that's entrusted. So in the first-century Roman world, a talent was roughly equivalent to, like, 6,000 denarii, depending on who you talk to, which would mean that a single talent represented approximately, like, 20 years on average of a laborer's wages.

So the sums then here we're talking about are staggering even at the lowest one. So the five-talent servant is receiving essentially approximately equivalent of a century's wages, and the one-talent servant is receiving 20 years' worth. There's no such thing as a small gift in Christ's economy, I think is the point here, and even the least endowment is immense beyond our reckoning.

Yeah. So the distribution also is deliberately unequal. It's five, one, two, and the text doesn't offer any apology for this inequality. The master distributes to each according to his ability, which as I say that, I realize that could probably be its own episode, that we could talk about what that even means.

Yeah. But he is matching and entrusting to capacity, and that's not arbitrary. Of course, that's wise and personal, and even the Greek here for this idea of capacity or power suggests the master knows his servants intimately and calibrates the stewardship accordingly. But nonetheless, it proves the point you're making here, which is not just about, like, well, do you have some kind of innate ability that's above average that God has endowed you with here?

That's not even what we're talking about. Again, the whole point of this is to answer the question eschatologically about what the end means and when the time is coming and what good discipleship looks like. And so in that way, we understand then these talents to be these divinely appointed and massively generous gifts of God, essentially, like you said, the stewarding of the gospel in the story of salvation itself unto his people, and then to make something of that, so to speak, by the power of the Holy Spirit that earns a return for the kingdom, that is all empowered by God, that is under the volition of the person, uh, the Christian who says, "As a disciple, it is my responsibility to steward these gifts."

That is really what we're after. So we do kind of get in this place where when you take this and say, "Well, what are you doing with," let's say- your home, if you have a nice home, are you being hospitable enough? If you have, let's say, a good singing voice by talent, are you using that to make sure that you're on the, quote-unquote, "praise and worship team," is not, like, entirely wrong, but it's not right either- Yeah

to use this passage- Yeah ... for that purpose. There's a bigger theme here. There is, there's a much stronger and widescale framework that God is drawing us to and examine, and it's about the stewardship of the church itself.

[00:46:30] Tony Arsenal: Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:46:31] The Foolish Servant Exposed

[00:46:31] Tony Arsenal: That's really key, and this is what struck me as, as you were speaking about that, is like we see in so many of the kinda like, uh, like the chump in the parable.

Like, there's- Yeah ... a lot of these parables have like a chump- Right ... where like you're looking at and you're like, nothing about what you've decided to do makes any sense. We're talking about people who've been given, in the first case, 100 years worth of, worth of wages. Right. Right? Any one of these people, and again, we're talking about a timeframe where, like, you could just take that money and run and, like, nobody's gonna find you.

There's no digital trail on any of this, right? If I stole, if I stole 100 years worth of labor from my manager or from my, my employer, they would find me, right? That's not the situation we're talking about. So even the chump who decided, "I'm not gonna do anything with this," he could've just take- taken off with the money and had 20 years worth of labor.

Right. Just 20 years worth of wages. Right. This is a, this is a sum of money that makes all f- all three of these servants unimaginably wealthy instantly, right? The point of this is, in part, that the final servant has no idea the amazing blessing and responsibility that he's been given. And again, I come back to this.

It's not because he is dumb or because he is, um, somehow less competent in a strict sense, right? It, it's so funny to me, like, we also gloss over the fact that, like, the guy who has five talents, he's got 100 years worth of money, 100 years worth of wages. Right. And he just goes and gets 100 more. Like- Right

he just goes and trades and- Right ... comes up with 100 years worth of wages that he brings back. Like, that's, in itself is, like, phenomenally, amazingly outrageous. We ran into this too with the, um, the parable of the unmerciful servant, right? We've, we've got one guy who's got this unimaginable debt, like, like, thousands of years worth of, uh, worth of wages that he could never make up, and he thinks he's gonna somehow come up with it if you just give him enough time.

It's kind of like the opposite here. This guy's got this unimaginable amount of instant wealth, and he just buries it in the ground. First of all, how much... We're also talking about an era where money was a physical, entirely physical.

[00:48:53] Jesse Schwamb: Right.

[00:48:53] Tony Arsenal: There were no, there were no digital banks. Like- No zeros and ones

most of our money exists as ones and zeros in a computer program right now. Right. Like, in reality, like- Right ... my money doesn't exist. We don't have, like, a physical gold standard anymore in America. Jesse could probably s- I'm probably making dumb things up right now. No, that's that's- Like, it used- Right on

to be that, like, every dollar that the United States government printed had, like, a piece of gold sitting at Fort Knox- Yes ... uh, like backing it up, but we just don't have that anymore. Most of the money that exists in our system is entirely imaginary. It's an entirely, like, made-up digital currency way before, like, Bitcoin was a thing.

That's not the case in this timeframe. This dude who buried 20 years worth of money in the ground, that's a significant amount of labor in and of itself- Right ... to even be able to do that. So we're not talking about, like... And I think this is the thing we miss when we, when we read the word talents, and one, when we obscure it and we, like, we misappropriate the word talent to mean, like, abilities, 'cause it, that's a convenient, like, illustration tool.

We're talking about a huge sum of probably gold or silver that this dude just buries in the ground, and then, like, digs it up when the master comes back.

[00:50:01] Jesse Schwamb: Right.

[00:50:01] Tony Arsenal: And I think, like- When we don't realize how much money this is, we miss the force of the master's like, "You stupid, dumb, wicked, slothful servant."

Like, if you had even taken this money to the bank and done the least imaginable- Yes ... effort. Exactly. Like, if you had done anything at all, like how mu- how difficult, granted more difficult back in this age than it is now, but like if you had even done something as simple requiring as little labor as possible and just brought this to the bank and let them collect interest on it, we'd still be talking about a huge return.

[00:50:35] Jesse Schwamb: That's right.

[00:50:36] Tony Arsenal: And he doesn't even do that, and that's, that's the point. There's the people who do, and they gloss over this. The parable totally glosses over the amazing effort and work that it must have taken to take 100 years worth of la- of wages and turn it into 200 years worth of wages. Right. Or to take 40 years worth of wages and turn it into 80 years worth of wages.

That's an amazing, probably almost miraculous return on, on investment. Whatever they did is amazing, and the parable's like, "Yeah, they did that." They just took it to the traders and they brought back five more talents. Like, it's nothing. And then this idiot, and I say idiot in like the most like, like exegetically sound, idios, like, like foolish idiot person.

[00:51:20] Jesse Schwamb: Right.

[00:51:20] Tony Arsenal: This idiot just buries it in the ground and doesn't even bother to bring it to the bank where he's gonna get some return on it. This is the picture of the fool who does not make use of the means of salvation. This is the picture of the fool who refuses to receive Christ as savior, who refuses to make use of the benefit and blessing of salvation that is available to all who will trust in Christ and turn to him.

This is the same picture as the idiot virgins who didn't buy enough oil and just fell asleep when they knew that the bridegroom was coming, right? Right. It's not that they fell asleep, it's that they didn't do the most obvious, simple, straightforward thing, is like your whole role, your whole purpose in this thing is to have oil.

The whole reason you exist, and we didn't even get into this when we talked about that parable. The whole reason that these 10 virgins exist is to escort the bridegroom to where the bride is waiting. That's the whole purpose of the virgins. In the, the sort of Middle Eastern, early first century wedding sort of situation, the bridegroom would come, and some people say that like this is the tradition where bridesmaids come from.

I don't know if that's true or not, but like the bridegroom would come and the virgins would escort him to the place where the virgin was waiting, the virgin bride was waiting to, to sort of, for him to claim his bride and take her, and then they would have the wedding feast. The, the, the bride, the foolish virgins, they didn't have the most basic thing they needed to accomplish the role they were in.

This is the same person, the same foolish idiot is the one who goes, "I'm not even gonna invest this in the bank. I'm not even gonna bring it to the bank and deposit it," which is, like, the least effort possible. Right. Instead, I'm just gonna dig a hole. I'm gonna throw it in the hole, not because I'm dumb, not because I'm incapable, but because I think that the master is wicked and evil and selfish, and that he's going to try to gather some return.

This is actually, and this just came to me, and maybe I'm wrong, but this is actually a picture of the person who wants to say that God doesn't deserve a return on his investment. 'Cause he's not saying, um, "I didn't know what to do." He's saying, "Actually, I did this because I know that you reap where you don't sow."

Right. He's doing this to sort of stick it to the master who thinks that he deserves something that he doesn't. That's the whole point of this. This, this idiot servant doesn't even understand his role as a servant, and that's the key here

[00:53:44] Faithfulness Proportional Reward

[00:53:44] Jesse Schwamb: yeah, the five-talent servant is set apart because he's marked by this immediacy.

He goes at once or straight away. There's no delay, no prolonged deliberation, no waiting for perfect conditions, and as you already noted, he does trade, which is in the Greek like work, labored. It is remarkable of course because all of the... Well, the ones that provide a return, both of these two servants, they get 100% return, but of course like to get 100% is a lot more absolute return for the 100th century labor than it is-

for the 20th century labor. But the verb does still nonetheless for each of them connotes this like active, energetic engagement. It's not passive holding. And so the result is five talents more, however he got them. Like you said, it's 100% return, and the parable doesn't explain how that was achieved because I think the mechanics of the investment are not the point, like you're saying.

It's what matters is the disposition of active, engaged, risk-taking faithfulness. And so in verse 17, you see that the, the servant with the two talents receives the same condemnation. He's endowed with less, but he achieves the same proportional faithfulness, which is interesting, right? And so his condem- his condemnation in verse 23 is identical to the five-talent servant.

It's word for word actually, I think. I was just looking at this. Yeah. And so it's a deliberate literary and theological point. God's measure of faithfulness is proportional, not absolute. I do think that's important. And the two-talent servant is not judged by the five-talent standard. He is judged by what he received.

So even that disproportionate allocation still comes back in a proportional reward, and that is the way in which God measures out these particular servants, who again, we're, we're talking essentially about the man going away as Christ himself. And so this, I think demolishes like this temptation to compare somebody else or yourself to more gifted Christians as either an excuse for laziness or as grounds for pride.

I, I think the critical point here as time eludes us is that faithfulness as we're seeing it start to unfold in this parable is active. It's, it's not passive And so that aligns so well with what we understand the Reformed tradition to teach, which is that God calls every believer to productive labor in their sphere of life, and faithfulness in that calling is itself worship.

But again, we're not just speaking about kind of the, the lower level sense of how are you explicitly using every moment or piece of your day, but more this understanding of the Gospel message itself, which is the greatest kind of vouchsafing. There's one other thing that springs to my mind that I just find interesting here.

It's not a complete parallel, but I do find it very interesting, and that is this is a problem that's very common in the world, the situation that's been set up here. The problem in finance, we call it the principal-agent problem, and this exists everywhere. It's where the principal is the one that actually is the one that owns the resources, but the agent is the one that's responsible for using them productively for the benefit- Yeah

of the principal. And it's a problem because it's possible the agent has their own motives, and therefore will not comport with what is for the best interest of the principal. So if you own a share of Apple stock, that's fantastic because you're seeking to grow your investment in that. But the problem is that unless the managers of Apple also own shares of the company as well, they might be wanting to act in their own self-aggrandizement, either to just use the company's resources to create really expensive offices for themselves or to make sure they get paid well or to, I don't know, make sure they all have golden toilets in their restrooms.

Whatever brings- ... them satisfaction and joy, which may not be the very thing that you want because it doesn't bring you return. It's interesting here that God could go about this in a number of different ways. He does draw us missionally into this idea of the kingdom, and again, he's coming against those who have been charged with that mission, explicitly the Pharisees, to say, "You are part of this missional kingdom which I've set into place."

Now, of course, where this metaphor breaks down is God himself doesn't truly have a principal-agent problem because in his providence he's over all of those things. Nonetheless, the situation and the relationship still stands here. I'm not gonna say, as some have said, like, this is, like, a true partnership, like God needs us to do these things or he, he needs to gently woo us into somehow performing as good agents for the benefit of him as the principal.

It's not like that at all. And yet still we have here an example of the relationship going wrong in the very way it still goes wrong today in other realms, which is- Yeah ... the agent is a fool, and you do not want- ... a fool as your agent if you are a principal.

[00:58:19] Works Righteousness Clarified

[00:58:19] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, and, you know, I think, um, this is what I'll, I'll say as we, we close out here, because I wanna make sure As I mentioned, I think this parable, particularly the way that it's often taught, lends itself almost to sort of like a, like a really, like, crass works righteousness, right?

[00:58:36] Jesse Schwamb: Sure.

[00:58:36] Tony Arsenal: A- and maybe not in the sense of, like, salvation. Um, and again, there are plenty of, uh, Reformed, like, w- well-meaning and I think exegetically sound Reformed teachers who will argue for some sort of gradation of rewards in, in the Kingdom of Heaven. I don't fully understand that argument, and I, I don't think that I'm there, and I don't know how I would get there.

Um, but I, I understand... I shouldn't say I don't understand the argument. I don't necessarily, like, embrace that argument. I don't agree with it, but I understand how people get to that from the scriptures. Right. I think this, this passage is sometimes used to justify that. Like, oh yeah, the guy who had five talents and he br- five more, like, he's, he's put over 10 talents, and the, like, the idiot fool who doesn't...

Like, they take the one talent, they give it to the f- There's this, like, theology of, like If you're faithful over... And again, like, this is just the Bible. Like, he who's faithful over little is, is given much. Like, that's, that's a biblical principle. Like, if you're faithful to obey God and to be productive for the kingdom, God is gonna entrust you with more responsibility and more, more, I don't know, domain I guess is the way I would say it.

Like, yes, that's a true principle. If you're effective, God is going to continue to use you in more effective ways. I, I actually don't think that's at all the point of this parable.

[00:59:59] Jesse Schwamb: Agreed.

[00:59:59] Tony Arsenal: Because what, what I know is true is the five-talent servant is given the same commendation as the two-talent servant.

And so I think a logical, um, not an inference, a necessary outcome, a logical entailment is that if the one servant, uh, one-talent servant had done as the others had and returned a 100% investment- Right ... he would've also been given the same, uh, commendation.

[01:00:28] Jesse Schwamb: Absolutely. Right?

[01:00:29] Tony Arsenal: The commendation, which I, I would say, and, and we'll get into this more next week, but the commendation here, this well, "Well done, good and faithful servant," that's not a special commendation that only the most amazing Christian servants get, right?

That's the basic commendation that every Christian who enters into glory will receive. Whether you have been the most productive soul-winner in the world, whether you are the most, you know, the most sanctified Christian who's ever lived, whether you are, um, well, are the, the most, absolutely the most amazing stellar person and millions of people have come to faith because of your ministry, you're going to receive the same commendation as the person who dies, and on their deathbed the last thing that they think is, "I, I trust Jesus."

Right. And they've produced no converts, they've produced no ministry, and maybe no one even knows that they were justified, because in their final moments before the lights went out, they trusted in Jesus, right? They hear the same well done, good and faithful servant when they enter into glory. That, that R.C.

Sproul or Billy Graham or Augustine, right? Or Martin Luther or John Calvin, we all hear the same... And maybe I'm, I'm rounding about here, like we all receive the same reward. The reward is well done, good and faithful, enter into the joy of your master. That's the point of this parable, is there are two servants who received that joy of their master.

Regardless of the actual total value of their return, they were faithful. The one who does not receive the joy of his master is the wicked and slothful servant, the one who does not make any return because he does not understand his role as a servant and the master's nature as the good master who entrusts his people for a purpose.

Instead he goes, "Well, this master is just trying to profit off my labor, and how dare he? How dare he do that? How dare he reap where he did not sow?" Totally missing the fact that the fact he has 20 years' worth of money to do anything with is the master sowing into him. Right. That's the whole point of this parable. So we'll come back to it again because- Like we've said, this is, this is part of a series of parables that are talking about the faithfulness of believers and how that ties into the eschatology and the nature of the church, and the nature of salvation and the eternal king- like, the everlasting kingdom.

All this is wrapped into this. And actually, the punchline, and maybe punchline's not the right word. That seems flippant and feels wrong, but, like, the, the final explanation of these parables is not a parable at all. So we're gonna deviate a little bit from our parable series. We're gonna talk about a text in the coming weeks, probably not entirely next week, but we're gonna talk about the sheep and the goats, which is not a parable in the sorta, like, truest sense, but it's the way that Christ sort of puts the, the exclamation point on these parables- Mm-hmm

as He explains what it actually looks like in the final judgment for the people who are faithful and for the people who are not. And that's the point of these parables, is to draw these distinctions between the faithful servants, the faithful wise virgins, and the foolish idiot virgins, and the foolish idiot servants.

Notice everybody is still a servant. Whether you're a, a- Right ... an enemy of God or whether you're, you're a friend of God, you're still a servant of God. You're just a matter of whether you're a foolish servant who gains no reward because you misunderstood the master, or whether you're the wise and faithful servant who enters into the joy of the master.

[01:04:01] Jesse Schwamb: That's right. So we'll come back to and begin next time with a little refresher on this one talent servant and the digging in the ground, and what's all that about, and we haven't even answered those critical questions like what are the talents exactly? Yes. And what does all this mean, and where are we going with this?

We'll get there.

[01:04:19] Wrap Up and Community Links

[01:04:19] Jesse Schwamb: But if you want to hang out a little bit more, speaking of being active, if you wanna get actively involved as opposed to just being passively involved, like listening to our voices- ... then you know where you can find us. You've heard it before, and I don't know why you're there already, but I'm gonna say it again.

Go to t.me/reformedbrotherhood in any one of your favorite browsers, and that link will take you to the Telegram app, which is just a messaging place. We have a little corner of the internet where we like to hang out and also talk about the episode. So that's gonna be your place to join into the conversation and share your own thoughts.

In addition, if you've ever wondered why all of this is free, why there is no, as I've coined it, at least, Jericho paywall that you have to strike down to find all of these episodes, the reason is because though there are costs to putting this out there, there are so many brothers and sisters that give just a little bit, either one time or consistently, to make sure it goes into your ears.

We are grateful, and if you thought, "You know what? I would like to be a part of that because there's been a blessing here that God has given me," then I would say thank you, and you should go to reformedbrotherhood.com, and you can find all of the information there on how to give.

[01:05:27] Tony Arsenal: It's true. I was gonna make a joke about how, like, we expect you to give us a return on your investment by joining the Telegram chat.

Now that I've thought a little bit more about that, that feels like maybe not the right joke to make. Little weird. So.

[01:05:39] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah.

[01:05:39] Tony Arsenal: Uh, but we do want you to join us. We think it's a lot of fun. We do. We really enjoy it. We also do want you to share this episode with someone. So, um, we've, we've been humbled in the past, um, maybe humiliated in the past, humbled in the past to find that people have used our episodes as starting points for Sunday school classes or discussions with their family or as a way to introduce the gospel to a coworker.

I've heard all of those stories. I know of at least one person who found their church and has become a member of their church, uh, because they listen to the podcast. So we, um, we're not delusional. We don't think we're some, like, amazing, miraculous force for God's kingdom. Of course not. But we do recognize that God uses, uh, this silly little podcast in His own ways for His own purposes, and we would love it if you would partner with us.

So I just wanna echo that. If, if you are a person who hears this podcast and is benefiting by it and you think, "I would really like to support that," please go to patreon.com/reformedbrother and consider that. Um, because we, we couldn't do this show the way that we do it without the support of the people who listen to it.

Um, so please check it out. Join the Telegram chat. We would love to see you.

[01:06:48] Final Sign Off

[01:06:48] Tony Arsenal: And Jesse, I can't wait until next week. I mean, I, I, like, can we just- ... like, turn off the episode, start recording the next one? That's what's

[01:06:55] Jesse Schwamb: gonna happen probably. I'm sitting

[01:06:56] Tony Arsenal: on the edge of my bed, literally on the edge of my bed.

My wife's gonna be like, "Can I go to sleep?" And be like, "No." No. "We need to record the next episode right now." Not yet. That's, that's not gonna happen. But, uh, Jesse, until next time, when it does happen, honor everyone.

[01:07:09] Jesse Schwamb: Love the brotherhood

In this follow-up to their discussion of the Parable of the Ten Virgins, Jesse and Tony make a critical discovery about Matthew 25:13 that fundamentally changes how we should read Christ's eschatological parables. The command to "watch therefore" isn't primarily about staying awake—it's about preparedness for Christ's return. This episode explores the grammatical and theological connections between the Parable of the Ten Virgins and the Parable of the Talents, revealing how Matthew 25:13 functions as a hinge verse that binds these parables into a unified teaching on eschatological readiness. The hosts demonstrate how modern chapter divisions and translation choices can sometimes obscure the organic flow of Christ's teaching, and why understanding these connections matters for Christian living today.

Key Takeaways

• Matthew 25:13 is a hinge verse, not an endpoint. The Greek grammatical structure (using post-positive connectors "therefore" and "for") links verses 1-13 forward to the Parable of the Talents, not just backward to the Ten Virgins.
• Sleep wasn't the problem in the parable. Both the wise and foolish virgins fell asleep. The issue was preparedness—having oil ready before the bridegroom's arrival, not staying physically awake.
• "Watch" means preparedness, not wakefulness. The better translation of the Greek word emphasizes alert readiness and preparation rather than literal sleeplessness.
• The Parable of the Talents explains what preparedness looks like. Christ intentionally connected these parables to show that watchfulness manifests in faithful stewardship and fruitful living.
• Christ himself made these connections. This isn't just Matthew's editorial arrangement—Jesus deliberately taught these parables together as a unified discourse on eschatological readiness.
• Sanctifying grace is non-transferable. The wise virgins couldn't share their oil because saving grace and the Spirit's indwelling cannot be borrowed or transferred between people.
• Eschatological ignorance is divinely ordained. Not knowing the day or hour prevents us from delaying obedience until the last moment, which was precisely the foolish virgins' error.

Key Concepts The Grammatical Evidence for Connection

The discovery that transformed this discussion centers on how Greek post-positive particles function. Both "therefore" (οὖν) in verse 13 and "for" (γάρ) in verse 14 cannot grammatically stand as the first word in a Greek sentence—they must connect to what precedes them. This means verse 13 isn't simply concluding the parable of the virgins; it's simultaneously introducing the parable of the talents. English translations that insert paragraph breaks between these verses may inadvertently suggest a harder separation than exists in the original text. When Christ says "watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour, for it will be like a man going on a journey," He's creating a seamless logical progression: the reason for watchfulness is eschatological uncertainty, and the nature of that watchfulness is illustrated by what follows in the talents parable.

Preparedness vs. Wakefulness in Translation

Some English translations render Matthew 25:13 as "stay awake" or "keep alert," emphasizing the sleep imagery from the preceding parable. However, this creates a logical problem: if falling asleep was the sin, then both groups of virgins sinned, since the text explicitly states "they all became drowsy and slept" (v. 5). The better understanding recognizes that the Greek word (γρηγορέω) encompasses a broader semantic range including vigilance, preparedness, and readiness—not just physical wakefulness. The wise virgins weren't praised for staying awake; they were praised for having secured oil before the bridegroom's arrival. This preparedness enabled them to respond appropriately when the moment came, regardless of whether they had been sleeping. Translating with an emphasis on sleep therefore misses Christ's point and artificially seals verse 13 off from the explanation that follows.

The Perseverance of the Saints in Action

This parable sequence reveals an often-overlooked dimension of the doctrine of perseverance: believers must actually do the persevering. While the Holy Spirit enables, empowers, and ordains our perseverance, He doesn't persevere instead of us—He causes us to persevere. The wise virgins' preparedness wasn't passive; they actively obtained oil before it was needed. They prepared for both the bridegroom's arrival and the potential delay. This illustrates that Christian preparedness isn't anxious vigilance or frantic last-minute effort, but the steady, Spirit-enabled work of sanctification, growing in grace, abiding in Christ, and maintaining readiness over the long haul. The Parable of the Talents then unpacks what this looks like practically: faithful stewardship, productive kingdom work, and diligent use of what God has entrusted to us during the time of waiting.

Memorable Quotes

The difference between foolishness and wisdom in the first parable is not whether or not the virgins fell asleep. It's whether or not they were prepared for the eventual coming of the bridegroom. - Tony Arsenal

When God's people take to see and request his eminent and transcendent power in the lives of somebody else through intercessory prayer, a special bond is created that is very real. - Jesse Schwamb

Christ himself has strung these different parables together... Christ was the one who decided that the parable of the talents was a proper explainer for the parable of the wise and foolish virgins. - Tony Arsenal

Full Transcript

[00:00:08] Jesse Schwamb: Welcome to episode 495 of the Reformed to Brotherhood. I'm Jesse.

[00:00:14] Tony Arsenal: And I'm Tony. And this is the podcast with ears to hear. Hey brother.

[00:00:18] Jesse Schwamb: Hey brother.

So sometimes the episodes just seem to write themselves, and I say that of course, tongue in cheek from my full providential register. But in the last episode, we went over with great detail, the parable of the 10 virgins, or the 10 bridesmaids found in Matthew 25. And I think we did all the things that we were supposed to do, like contractually.

We made really good oil puns. We talked about Petras song, midnight Oil. We talked about 10 bridesmaids, five Ys, five foolish. They're all waiting for the bridegroom who is late because he operates on divine timing. The foolish five run out of oil and begged the five whys to share theirs. The five whys decline, because sanctifying grace is non-transferrable.

This is not a potluck. We went through all of that stuff and then what happened is we turned off the microphones and somehow you and I started a, a new conversation about this thing still. And we thought there's more to say and we didn't even expect it. And incidentally, it all hinges on a single word.

Yeah. So we're gonna come back to that on this episode because we couldn't help ourselves. And I say that because we couldn't help ourselves. We literally kept talking about this long after the episode had ended. So we wanted to bring it back and it's something new. I think that you and I were really pondering that's gonna be really, really, really good.

Yeah. But the other thing that's really good is either affirming with something or denying against something that's the part of the conversation where we either affirm with something that we think is underrated, really exceptional, that we wanna recommend or we deny against something that's just not that great.

So Tony, what have you got for us today?

[00:02:04] Tony Arsenal: I'm gonna phrase this in a very particular way, of course, and then I'll explain why I'm phrasing it that way. I'm starting. Great. Um, I am affirming adult baptism upon a profession of faith, and I say it in that particular way. Sure, of course. Um, because I often hear, and I've heard, I mean, I've heard Presbyterian pastors say this, um, I've heard, heard it said that Presbyterians do cradle baptism too.

And, uh, and sort of like, sometimes it's kind of in like a, I'm trying to like build a bridge with a, a cradle Baptist. Sure. Um, I actually object to that because the, the basis on which an adult is baptized in a Westminster covenant theology framework is different than the basis, uh, on which a believer is baptized under a traditional Baptist credo, Baptist position.

Right. So I'm affirming adult. Profession of faith, baptism or adult baptism upon a profession of faith. Um, and the reason I'm saying that is because my wife and I had this opportunity this morning to go to another church to visit, uh, a friend of ours. It's actually a friend of our son's, which is crazy to say.

He's four years old. A friend of our son's from school, his mother, um, who is a Christian, um, but had never been baptized, was being baptized at her church today. And so we got an opportunity to go to their church. It's a church we've been to before. It was not like a brand new church or any, like, super far away.

It's a church we've been to before. Um, so we got to go to church and then we went over to the local sort of like swimming hole. Uh, like there's this little, uh, like recreational area called stores pond, I'm sure. Just I know you're familiar with it. Oh,

[00:03:38] Jesse Schwamb: yeah.

[00:03:39] Tony Arsenal: Um, and they did sort of like a testimony ceremony and, uh, all of the baptizes, I don't know if that's the right word, but all of those being baptized.

Uh, I would normally call them catechumens, but I don't think that actually that applies here. But all of those being baptized, uh, got up and gave their testimony. There was eight people being baptized, which was fun to see. Um, of course all adults. This is a Baptist, um, a Baptist church that we were visiting.

And then we walked over to the, over to the lake and they dunked him in there. And, uh, it was really great to see. And the reason that I'm affirming adult baptism upon a profession of faith, um, uh, is because it's really quite beautiful, right? I think we've, we just recently talked about this, um, and I'm sure we'll talk about it again at some point in the future, but we just recently talked about a baby baptism at my church that, uh, is beautiful in its own right for its own reasons, and it's got its own theological, uh, underpinnings and theological elegance to it.

But there's also something just very beautiful about an adult who either has come to faith, um, and I don't, I don't know, um, this woman very well, like I, she's another mom at, um, at Agie school. And so our kids go to school together and so we interact with her periodically at like drop off and other times and they've been over to the house.

I don't know her, well, I heard enough of her testimony today to know that she was kind of a nominal Christian. Uh, and they actually started going to church because in order to bring their son to the school that, um, they wanted to go to, which is, uh, the school that my son goes to, the school that your father teaches at, um.

You have to have at least one parent needs to be a Christian, needs to be a regular attender, a regular member of a church. And so they, they joined a church, um, to be able to fulfill that requirement. And either, and, and again, I wasn't, I was watching the kids, um, including her son while she was doing this.

So I was only kind of hearing with one ear. So either she was a nominal Christian and was kind of like renewing her faith or she was coming to faith for the first time. I'm not sure. But in either case, she had not been baptized previously that I know of. I didn't, I mean, I guess maybe she was baptized as a baby or something, I don't know.

But, um, she was being baptized today upon a sort of a new profession of faith or renewal of faith, and it's just very sweet to see. The emotional investment that occurs when someone is recognizing that God's promise is being sealed on them. Right. And I don't know that, I don't know that a lot of traditional Baptist, and this is a pretty like plain Jane Evangelical church.

I'm not sure that a lot of evangelicals would really recognize or use that language. But I also think there's an intuitiveness to it that like this is a sign that God gives us. It's gotta be a sign of something. Right. Um, it's not, this was a church that brought sort of broadly Calvinistic part, the baptism of house was actually adopted or adapted from, uh, a modification of question, one of the Heidelberg catechism.

So I warned my Presbyterian heart, um. So they're in a context where like covenantal language is not foreign to them, even if it's not the primary structure that they're using. But it was just very sweet and kind and a, a really encouraging, uh, opportunity for the body of Christ to gather. Uh, it was a little bit chilly.

It was raining actually, and people, anybody, like everybody was out there and, and in the rain, most people didn't have umbrellas. And you know, people's hair is wet and their clothes are getting wet and nobody cares. Nobody is bothered by it because there is some baptism going on. There's some, uh, some new birth in a roundabout sense and some yes, uh, some, some signification of that new birth in a very direct sense.

So that's what I'm affirming today. Adult baptism upon a profession of faith, uh, with an asterisk in a covenantal mode. That's, that's my very specific, very technical affirmation today.

[00:07:19] Jesse Schwamb: There's also something about that's just special. Again, it's not prescriptive, but there's something special about those open water baptisms too.

Oh

[00:07:27] Tony Arsenal: yeah.

[00:07:28] Jesse Schwamb: I mean,

[00:07:29] Tony Arsenal: yeah, it was like super picturesque. It was like, I felt like I was on the Jordan with Town of Baptist, like the, like, it was like a, that classic like Baptist minister standing in the water, like it was very right. Very, uh, it looked staged, but I don't think it was, I think it just was actually this, that genuine scenario.

[00:07:44] Jesse Schwamb: Right. So, yeah. Yeah. And that's like a beautiful thing. Like we're saying, oh, we're not trying to get into the particulars. It's just to appreciate, I think all of those details. I myself was baptized by my father in a pond and it was glorious. That was, that was special. And there was something about the occasion and the environment as well that was special to me in that.

But you're right, like in that Baptist mode, I, I think when it's like properly administered, when it's really appreciated and the theology is rich and richly exemplified in what's happening there to, it's hard not to be moved, I think in the Christian heart, not to be warned by seeing somebody go down into the water to come up into this representation of new life in Christ.

I think regardless of your convictions on this, it's hard not to be moved by the power of the spirits.

[00:08:25] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.

[00:08:26] Jesse Schwamb: And the sign and seal being delivered to God's people. In a profound way. So whether you're a Pado or Cradle Baptist, I think it really is difficult not to be moved. And especially in an environment like that, you love to see it, right?

I mean, this idea of of, um, being able to come to the Lord because he's called you and whatever season of life that is, and then to follow an obedience into baptism is a glorious thing that we should all celebrate. So I love this idea of people on a chilly day in New Hampshire standing in the rain saying, give us the baptism.

Like let, let us see the Holy Spirits working through the lives of the people in our midst. Let, we wanna be a part of that. We wanna celebrate that we're here for that.

[00:09:07] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. It was just a, it was just a very, very sweet, like, I, like I said with, when we were talking about the, the baby baptism at my church, it's, there's just a, there's a sweetness to it.

It's, yes. It's almost like, um, I've never been present for the birth of someone's child other than my own. Um, I've been at the hospital, uh, so meeting the family and the, the baby like very shortly after birth, but I've never been actually there. But there's something reminiscent to that, whether it's a baby being baptized or an adult being baptized where it's, it's just this sort of sweet moment of introduction to yes, this person with, um.

To varying degrees depending on the theology, underlying baptism. But this person with a very real new identity that they have been given, yes, it's, it's, the old has gone, the new has come new creation in Christ. Um, whether, you know, I, I don't affirm baptism or regeneration, right? That's not a reformed position.

But whether you have a, a position of some form of baptismal regeneration or baptismal efficacy, which is where kind of the, the reform tradition tends to fall, or even just, uh, I say just, I don't mean just in a peor sense, but like, even if, if what's going on is, is entirely a symbol that you know, is being applied to a person, there is a new sense of identity.

There's a, there's a, a mark, a, a physical mark that it isn't persistent like circumcision, but it's a physical mark being applied, a visible mark being applied to, to the person claiming them as God's child. Um, and, and there's something very sweet and genuine. And, and to see, like, just to see, like I said, the, just the emotionality.

And not a crass like emotionalism, but a genuine, heartfelt, emotional moment that someone is going through like a real, genuine emotion, um, is also not something we actually see that much in the world anymore, which is, it was nice to see. Anyway, I could, I could blather on about baptism and, and adult baptism and baby baptism and how great it is.

Uh, God knew what he was doing and he, he gave us this beautiful symbol. So next time you have an opportunity to experience a adult baptism upon a profession of faith in a covenantal mode, uh, than you make sure you take advantage of that.

[00:11:14] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. You know what it's like for me and certainly I, baptism is way more profound, uh, than this example I'm about to give.

But there's something within me that feels similarly or appreciates in a similar way when you're participating or just viewing a wedding. Yeah. Isn't there? There's that new identity. There's the vows and the covenants being made and promises being given and that that's just like a really meaningful, profound thing.

And then like, you know, a thousand times, a million times, that is to participate or to witness again, baptism. And in my own church, which is Cradle Baptist, the one I attend, baptism, I'll say it this way in like this most trite way again, is like a super big deal. And one of the things I really appreciate is when that person, after they've given their testimony and they've gone down into the water and they come back up, our congregation goes like wild.

Like just wild in celebration. Yeah. And at first I was like, wow, this. This seems like too much. Guys, can we take, can we take it down now? Just the Lord's day after all. And then I was with you in the sense of like, really, it's like we, you and I have talked so much about like the, the way in which you're trying to sometimes manufacture or theologians try to bring in some sense of emotionalism to kind of convey some kind of like, really, so I can demonstrate that I have a heartfelt and genuine commitment and love for God and Christ and you know, we can leave that as it is right now.

Here is a place where I think that celebration is like just wholly and totally appropriate.

[00:12:36] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.

[00:12:36] Jesse Schwamb: And so I love that there's genuine enthusiasm and excitement over those things. And you're genuinely gonna get that more in the kind of traditional Baptist mode of this thing. I'm just saying celebrate where you celebrate, you know, get in where you fit in.

Yeah. And so I think that your admonishment to us and affirmation there is really good. Um, totally about that. And all the better if you can do it in a, on a rainy day in a pond in New Hampshire. That sounds like a glorious spot.

[00:13:02] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah, it's, it was interesting. It was good. It was a good time. Jesse, what do you got for us tonight?

[00:13:07] Jesse Schwamb: I'm also gonna go affirmation, and I think we can file this one for me, under seeing the power of God in his, that power demonstrated in his transcendence and in his eminence. All our timing is gonna be off on this, but there's a certain compulsion I have to report back to everybody. And that reporting is really on my wife who did undergo some surgery this week.

And I'm about to say a bunch of things medically so you can, I mean, there's nothing in here like grotesque, but I say that because somebody might be like, wow, you're seeing a lot of personal things. I have her permission to share all this. But of course some of you may remember, she spoke on the podcast, I dunno, like a half dozen episodes ago.

Go back and listen to that. She talks about her medical journey, but she just had this big surgery. And here's the reason why I want to report back. I sense that when God's people take to see and request his eminent and transcendent power in the lives of somebody else through intercessory prayer, that like a special bond is created that is very real.

So I think when somebody comes to their brothers and sisters and says. Would you pray for us? Would you pray for me? That's not just an act. I think of vulnerability. It's one of of truly seeking after what God desires for his people to help and to intercede for one another. And there's something special about that.

And then equally special, and I think binding is when people say, yes, I will pray. And they make themselves committed to doing that. When that relationship is established, what I think is like mutual accountability, mutual yielding to one another, mutual submission. The lovely thing about that is I think there ought to be a reporting back.

I really feel highly convicted about that because so many people, including those in the from Brotherhood hanging out in the Telegram, TT Me Reform Brotherhood, they have prayed for us. My church has prayed, my parents have prayed. You have prayed. So many people have prayed. And so my wife did go undergo an 11 hour surgery just two days ago.

And uh, I can say that that surgery, the doctors, the three surgeons who are working as part of this interdisciplinary team, this multifactorial, multidisciplinary team, were able to accomplish everything that they wanted to do, which was a wild accomplishment. And it was more intense than they thought it was going to be.

But I can say to you very, very clearly, very cogently that, uh, God was in the midst of all of these things in a mighty and powerful way. Now, I know people are prone to say that kind of thing. I'm saying it because it was all exceptionally real. Not only as I sat there waiting for the next updates in the waiting room, did I really sense a peace of God that I haven't felt before, even in all of my wife's previous surgeries, when this was the most uncertain, this was the biggest, the highest risk that was all real.

But at the very end, and I'll, I'll spare a lot of the details, uh, but at the very, very end when the surgeon reported back to me all the things that they did, which included having to take out a portion of her bowel and stitch it back together again, because she had some endometriosis that had embedded itself in there and that was unknown to them.

You can't see that stuff in an MRI and yet God ordained that the right surgeon, the right preparation would be in the room and ready to go if something like that occurred and it did. That she had a full hysterectomy, which we were praying that it would be lack laparoscopic because they were concerned they would not be able to do it that way.

And God answered that prayer that she needed to have her ureter, the thing that connects your kidney to your bladder, that also was filled with endometriosis. It had to be resectioned and repaired. And it was that the end of all of this, what the main doctor kept saying to me was, we wanted to put your wife in a position where her anatomy would determine the outcome and that you would have all of the skilled persons in the room to provide the best care, the best expertise possible.

And what he said to me at the end is, it's strange things just kept breaking her way. And I said, well, I can tell you why that is. That's because God was answering the prayers of so many people who are praying for her. And so I'm so thankful for everybody who's prayed. She's in a critical time of healing right now.

Our prayers now are turning to just that God would solidify the work that he has already accomplished, that there'd be no complications, that all the things that they did, and they did a lot of things. The surgeon in fact said to me at the end, it's gonna feel like she got hit by a truck. And that's actually not a bad description of what we did to her.

And so the next days are the ones where we're really pleading for God to do this kind of miraculous healing that he started by providing all the things that he's, he's already done. I, as a husband, cannot be more thankful, more grateful, without words for everybody who has prayed. Uh, for my parents, for you guys, Tony, for all of our friends who reached out for so many people, I've realized I have a part-time job now just answering text messages, uh, on behalf of my wife for those who desperately are loving her through prayer.

And again, I think I'd affirmed before. I'll say this very quickly, about the elders praying over her. About what a sweet time that was. Not only did that happen, but uh, unbeknownst to me until a little bit later on in that day did I learn that a bunch of women in the church had taken it upon themselves to schedule an 11 hour block where there was gonna be somebody praying every hour for my wife.

And, um. Man, if, if, if this is not what the family of God does for one another, I don't know what they do.

[00:18:35] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.

[00:18:35] Jesse Schwamb: So I'm so grateful. Thank you for everybody who has prayed. I also don't want to testify. That's the power of God and his eminence. And his transcendence is just unreal loved ones. It's unreal, it's otherworldly and he comes in power when his people pray.

He does good work and it's very James one. There's a lot that even as I'm worried now about the outcome of this surgery and how it will play out, that I can still somehow truly count it all joy, because it is God who does these things in our lives to test and to prove out our faith and our love towards him, because he's in fact good.

And I'm just testifying to that goodness in the midst of this difficulty. So wherever you are at. For whatever it's worth. And I think it's worth a lot. God is faithful. He will do the work that he began, and he will meet us when we need him, where we are at in his loving kindness because of his great mercy.

So be encouraged by that. And again, my sincere gratitude.

[00:19:36] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. I don't, I don't have much that I can add to that. I mean, I, I, I think, um, prayer is an undervalued commodity in the church.

[00:19:48] Jesse Schwamb: Yes.

[00:19:49] Tony Arsenal: And. As good and right as it is for us, uh, to pray when there's some big, um, big need like this. Um, and, and there's no, there's no, uh, dishonor or shame in asking for prayer in the big situations.

I think sometimes too, like we forget that prayer is just as vital and just as important and just as powerful and just as meaningful and just as everything in the small things. Amen. Um, and, and I also think, you know, sometimes we, maybe this is just me, but like sometimes we go into, we go into a, a scenario like what you and your wife are going in and we sort of like prepare ourselves for.

The hard providence to come. Like, I don't know if, if that's where you've been at, but I know when I'm facing things like this, um, I'm, I'm kind of like asking people to pray, expecting God to bring the hard providence.

[00:20:43] Jesse Schwamb: Yes.

[00:20:44] Tony Arsenal: Um, and maybe that's just a coping mechanism to sort of like get out in front of it in case he does.

Um, but like that God, God doesn't, uh, how do I wanna say this? I don't think that God takes any particular joy in bringing the par, the hard providences. Mm-hmm. And I actually think he does take a particular joy in answering the prayers of his people unto good effect. Um, I think there's a particular joy that God brings when he, God has in his own divine accommodated, anthropo, pathic way, um, when he can make sure that everything just breaks the right way for his children.

Right. In a really difficult, complex, long surgery. Um, and all of the butterfly effect elements of, of how all of those different things are gonna, you know, spread out. Right. I don't know if this surgeon's gonna come to faith because you attributed his success in this surgery to, you know, to, to God. I don't know.

Maybe, maybe not. Um, but, but either way, there are a thousand, a million imperceptible little ways that God's providence flows out of these kinds of situations that we will never know. Um, and he, he takes great joy in answering the prayers of his people and. Yes, it's true that when God, when we ask God for bread, he does not give us a stone even when he gives us the hard providences, right?

The hard providences are not a stone, but he likes to give us really good bread.

[00:22:10] Jesse Schwamb: Amen.

[00:22:10] Tony Arsenal: And I think at times, um, we, we sort of almost doubt that he is able and willing and joyful to do so. So that's more, I think, more a reminder for me than it is for anyone else. 'cause I, I have a tendency to prep myself for the hard providences, um, before they come and, and pray to that effect that God would comfort me in the midst of whatever trials is coming.

Um, maybe I need to show a little bit more faith in a good God who gives good gifts, um, to pray and thank him in advance for the good providence is the, the easier the soft providence is that he has in store for his people as well.

[00:22:46] Jesse Schwamb: Well, I think we all need that reminder from time to time and I, again, I like where you've taken that.

It is a good reminder to pray for the people that you love around you all the time, or just ask. What's something that you would like some prayer for, especially maybe something that you can't pray for yourselves through this time? I can't tell you how many times somebody has asked to pray with me or for me, and they pray in ways that just astound me.

I dunno if that makes sense. Yeah. Like just, I get off the phone and I think, well, that was spirit filled because I didn't know that I needed to hear those words. I didn't know exactly like what needed to be stitched together in terms of the requests that would really minister to my heart and provide me encouragement.

But course the Lord knows, and even in prayer as you're saying, he's giving that good gift to each other.

[00:23:35] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.

[00:23:35] Jesse Schwamb: When we pray with one another, when we pray for one another, it's just a remarkable thing that I fail to understand and I definitely fail to appreciate. So in this season of being able to see it very clearly as if like the clouds.

Parted and I could see some of this power of prayer and what God does in prayer, what God does to us in the prayer of others. I can't help but testify again. I feel it is my duty to do so, actually. So be encouraged, loved ones that this is a powerful weapon that God gives us. I think you and I have said before, Tony, maybe we can also partly this into like another reform.

A brotherhood bumper sticker. I said another, like, we have bumper stickers. We don't, we definitely should. At some point

[00:24:17] Tony Arsenal: we do have at least one cross stitch pillow floating around out there

[00:24:20] Jesse Schwamb: somewhere. That's true. Yes. We need to get our hands on that. And maybe here's something else we could add to it, which is of course, when, when we work, we work, but when we pray, God works.

And so I've just been reminded of that over and over and over again. The situation, like you said in the big times and the small times, what a blessing, what God is like this, who cares. Who again, is what I've been thinking about is how high and lifted and transcendent God is, so that like he's not moved in, uh, in a dis, like a passionate way by this nonsense of our world.

He's steady and steadfast. You know, Isaiah 26, like our God is an everlasting rock, and yet he's eminent in sending his son to identify with the kind of pain even my wife is in right now. In her time of trial and struggle. He is there and yet separated and so powerful that he orchestrates all the details himself.

I mean, what God is like this.

[00:25:11] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.

[00:25:11] Jesse Schwamb: So this is the one to whom we get to bend his ear, as it were, and we'll avail ourselves of that opportunity. Always. You're gonna have to stop it, Tony. Otherwise, I'm, this whole episode is just gonna be me talking about, which would not be bad, I suppose, but me talking about how good our God is, I suppose we can talk about that actually in the context of Matthew 25.

[00:25:30] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. You better watch yourself before you wreck yourself. Is that how it goes? But I did that, that took a month off of podcasting. I forgot how to do transitions. Not that we were ever great at transitions. It's just slamming into gear

[00:25:43] Jesse Schwamb: now. That loved one's a segue that you, you don't even know about yet.

You didn't even get it. So let me help you try to get it. 'cause I, I wanna do this quickly, but of course it's always the best part of our conversations where we can get to the scripture. Let me read just the first, uh, 13 verses Matthew 25, and I'm gonna read them from the version that I read on the last episode because part of the fun of this conversation that Tony I had had subsequently was, do you remember what you said to me, Tony, about, about the, this, I don't wanna say the word yet, but this word.

[00:26:10] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. I, what I remember is, um, feeling confused because I, I said, I thought this was like a Mandela effect kind of thing. Yes. We might have to, I'll explain briefly what that is in that I could have swore this word was in the, in the Bible. Like I was, it was so ingrained in my head that this was there. And then I'm trying to find it in my, my version that I'm bringing in.

It's not there. And the obvious answer is it actually was there in the version that Jesse was reading and is there in many translations. Um, so we'll, we'll read the translation, uh, Jesse read, and then we'll talk about why not only why this is, uh, important in the light of our last conversation, but actually how it's important in light of what will likely now be the beginning of our conversation on the next parable, and in the next week or maybe two of, of the discussion of the parable of the talents here, or one of the parable and talents.

[00:26:57] Jesse Schwamb: So this is Matthew 25, beginning in verse one. Then the kingdom of heaven may be compared to 10 virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the body groom. Now five of them were foolish and five are prudent. For when the foolish took their lamps, they took no oil with them, but the prudent took oil in flasks along with their lamps.

Now, while the bridegroom was delaying, they all got drowsy and began to sleep. But at midnight there was a shout. Behold the bridegroom come out to meet him. Then all those virgins rose and trimmed their lamps. And the foolish said to the prudent, give us some of your oil for our lamps are going out. But the prudent answered saying, no, there will not be enough for us.

And you go to and instead to the dealers and buy some for yourselves. And while they were going away to make the purchase, the bridegroom came and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding feast and the door was shut. And later the other virgins also came saying, Lord, Lord, open for us. But he answered and said, truly, I say to you, I do not know you.

Therefore, stay awake for you. Do not know the day nor the hour.

[00:28:02] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. So the part of this, uh, passage that I was having, like a brain cramp on and couldn't figure out is actually verse 13 and, um. The reason this is important and ties in, and this is part of why Jesse and I after we sort of had like a second, the beginning of a second episode, following the last episode, um, wanted to come back, is that this, this verse in verse 13 actually makes, um, in effect it makes the second parable that we're gonna talk about the parable of the talent here.

It actually makes that parable like an extension of the first one or maybe an explanation of the first one, or further clarification. I'm not sure. It, it links the two together in a way that's really significant. So we need to make sure we really understand. Verse 13, and I'm gonna read verse 13 in my translation to demonstrate kind of where I think the, the question starts and says, watch therefore for, you know, neither the day nor the hour.

And what Jesse and I kind of like marveled at is, um, the word for watch, uh, it's actually the same word we get the name Gregory, for, uh, from, um, the, the idea of being wakeful or alert or not falling asleep. That's that's there in the word. Um, and, and I don't think it's a bad translation. I don't. I always, um, wanna be really hesitant to sort of like make an argument that you wanna like build an entire theological point on a translation or a mistranslation.

I think those are really shaky arguments, and even more than that, I don't ever wanna make an argument that makes it so people feel like they can't trust their English bibles. So the, the difference between the version that Jesse read with, you know, statements of being awake or stay awake or be alert versus watch, or more generalized alertness language, which is I think probably a better, not, not that the other one's bad, but this is probably a better translation.

And it's a translation decision that's trying to connect that verb back to something that was said about the virgins. Right, right. The, the virgins, um, and this is, this is where our conversation went, is actually the, the sort of like real time epiphany that Jesse and I had, maybe I just had Jesse new, the, the sort of like real time epiphany that both, both groups of virgins fell asleep.

Right. And so being asleep is not the necessary, it's not the thing that makes the virgins foolish.

[00:30:35] Jesse Schwamb: Exactly.

[00:30:36] Tony Arsenal: The, the translation, I think, I mean, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, not like a mind reader and I haven't read anything from the translation committees that explain that this is why they did it. But I'm, I'm, I think it's reasonable to think they translated in light of that wakefulness element of being alert because of the fact that the virgins fell asleep and they were sort of caught off guard when the bridegroom came.

But the reason I think that's an over translation is exactly the dynamic we pointed out last week, falling asleep was not the problem,

[00:31:04] Jesse Schwamb: right?

[00:31:05] Tony Arsenal: What was, what was the problem was not being prepared. And so this concept of watch, therefore is more, I think is more about preparedness because of the fact that the parable is about preparedness, not about wakefulness.

So when we wanna think about translations, yes, verse 13 comes after verses one through 12, but there's this little word therefore that connects this one with the next one, right? And so it's watch therefore for, you know, neither the day nor the hour. If that was the end of, end of the book of Matthew, right, right there, then that therefore would be like, because of what I just said, watch for, you neither know the day nor the hour, you know, neither the day nor the hour.

But then in verse 14, it starts with four. It will be like a man going on a journey who called his servant and entrusted them through his property. That word for, that's another connecting logic word. So it's watch therefore, so like, because of what I just said, be alert, watch, be wakeful, be mindful, be prepared for, you know, neither the day or the hour.

Four, because it will be like a man going on a journey, right? The reason you have to watch is partially, or the reason you have to watch is that you will neither know the day nor the hour. And the reason you will neither know the day nor the hour is because it will be like a man who's going on a journey called his servants and entrusted them to his property, right?

So these two parables are connected and we have to sort of like understand what that watch word means and how it relates to the previous parable to understand now what it is that the next parable is trying to say and how the two relate to each other.

[00:32:45] Jesse Schwamb: I think that's right. It's like you said before, we talked about last time, it's not that sleep was the problem.

That's not where the condemn nation comes in. It's merely that sleep revealed the lack of preparedness. Right. Like I suppose if you wanted to change it up, you could be like, and then they all played Uno for a while and the lambs were going strong and then suddenly the bride coon came out and it was like, okay, well it was the fact that all the lamps were still burning.

Yeah. But as they were still burning and that time was passing and the bridegroom delayed, providentially, then it was only those imbued with that grace who already I prepared for that moment in time. Not that they were all playing Uno itself. So, which, which I know this is like my own translation, which is horrible, but.

It is important if somebody thinks like we're overworking this.

[00:33:26] Tony Arsenal: Right?

[00:33:26] Jesse Schwamb: It's important, I think, because it, it's gonna set up the next stuff, which we're gonna get to, uh, I presume in the next episode. But this verse is, is like a, is like kind of like the keystone. It's, it constitutes like the entire moral conclusion of both this parable, but the other two that are just like it, that come before it in different ways.

And of course it's like structurally parallel to a bunch of like mark and stuff that we may or may not get to. And then it echoes like the broader, all that discourse as well. So I was just looking up quickly, mark 13, in other words like where do we hear this same type of language? Where does it almost rhyme in our minds?

And so if you go over just to mark 1333, and this is the parable of the fig tree. So we won't get into that there, but you'll see kind of like the same conclusion, the same, I kind of high and lifted point at the end. And this is where Jesus says, see to it, keep on the alert. For you do not know when the appointed time will come.

So instead, really what we're getting at is there's all this language about watchfulness, like the, the present imperative in Greek. Keep on watching, be continuously a work, uh, alert, but it's not like watchfulness in this like anxious, vigilant, kind of nervous energy uncertainty, but it's the prepared readiness of one who has oil in the vessel and knows that the bridegroom is coming regardless of whether you fall asleep.

[00:34:46] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. And again, you know, the, the way that, um, the way that English translations are broken up into paragraphs and into, with headings and editorial content and chapter divisions and verse divisions, um, those things are all helpful and they're all really useful and I'm glad they're there. Uh, they're not inspired though, right?

They're not the word of God. The, the, for the little, the little super script 14 before the word four and the little super script 13 before the word watch. Is not, it's not inspired and neither is the little, at least in the version I'm looking at on logs Bible start, neither is the little paragraph break that separates these two.

So we, we can equally read and again, like I haven't done a full Greek exo treatment of this and maybe I should to, to know whether there is actually some real specific grammatical reasons why we would break these. There probably is, but we could equally read it saying, but he answered truly I say to you, I do not know you watch therefore for, you know, neither the hour or the day nor the hour.

For it will be like a man going on a journey who called his sermon or we could read it, watch therefore for, you know, neither the day nor the hour for it will be like a man going on a journey. Right, right. We can, we can, the way that we read it, we can, we can clump verse 13 with what comes before it and sort of imply a full break or we can clump it with what comes after it and imply a full break before it.

In reality, we shouldn't do either of those. Right. This is in, this is linked together in the, the Bible specifically to take these two parables. And pull them together. Right. Thematically, they're the same. They match, they, they have kind of this rhyming nature that like, there's, there's this theme of like, these people who have a specific task and they accomplish it to greater or lesser degree.

And the ones who do it, right, the ones who do it well are rewarded in some sense because of their preparedness and their diligence. And again, I, I don't, um, I know that we can't overemphasize this because this is God's word, right? Right. The, the difference between foolishness and wisdom in the first parable is not whether or not the virgins fell asleep.

It's, it's whether or not they were prepared for the eventual coming of the bridegroom, meaning that they had everything they need, not only to, um, and this is a, a real time realization I'm having here, not only to be ready when the bridegroom came, but to be prepared for the long haul until he came.

Right. I think that's actually probably another big part of this pearl that we didn't even really talk about is that there's a, there's a, um. There's an implied statement here about the, the, um, perseverance of the saints in the fact that the saints have to persevere. Right? That's a corollary of the doctrine, of the perseverance of the saints, is that we actually have to do the persevering, right?

Empowered by the spirit. Enabled by the spirit. Ordained by the spirit, of course, but that doesn't mean the spirit is the one who's persevering, right? Right. The spirit is not persevering for us. The spirit is causing us to persevere, but it's still us that he's causing to persevere. That's a major part of that.

This next parable and, and we'll read, we'll read the parable here and then we'll get into some of the beginning part. I think this next parable here is really about like what does that perseverance look like? What does that diligence until the master comes, looks like. It's kind of like taking this, this period of time where the bride groom is delaying and the virgins all are becoming drowsy and sleeping.

Well, what does that actually look like? What does it look like for the virgins who have gotten the oil ahead of time versus the virgins who waited and then had to go buy it? Well, the parable of the talents in this next passage shows us what it means to be prepared. And part of what it means to be prepared is to be diligently working to advance the kingdom of God diligently working to pursue and excel in righteousness, insofar as it depends on us, and insofar as we're empowered by the Holy Spirit.

So these two, these two parables are linked together and um. Maybe we're falling into this trap a little bit, although I think because of the way we're kind of doing these, these passages in sort of organic fashion, rather than really insisting on sort of hermetically sealing off each parable, we have a tendency, I think to say like, this parable is this right?

This parable is that. And we don't really ever talk about them unless you're in like a parables of Christ Seminary class or like you're reading a book on the parables of Christ. Um, if you're just sort of looking at popular teaching on parables or you're. Like a sermon series through the parables. I don't think you're gonna run into a lot that's gonna show these connections and relationships between the parables in the way that I think we're, I'm stumbling upon is maybe not right.

But that's what it feels like. We're sort of like discovering in real time together that these parables are so organically linked to each other that we really can't seal them off from each other or we do some violence to the text.

[00:39:36] Jesse Schwamb: Right on. Yeah. And speaking of that whole life, whole preparedness, whole watchfulness, John Owen writes, in the mortification of sin, the whole of Christian living may be described as a preparation for eternity, mortifying sin, growing in grace, abiding in Christ, waiting for his appearing, which really strikes me as maybe a summary of like an umbrella of all of these parables of ones that we've just seen most recently and the ones that we're about to go into because.

The ground for the watchfulness here is that like legitimate eschatological ignorance. This is like a deliberate, divinely ordained uncertainty. So of course, like knowing the precise moment would just tempt the flesh to delay until the last possible moment, which is precisely the error of the foolish virgins who assume that there was enough time to obtain the oil after that midnight cry.

So all of this is happening right now. Like I, I do think this verse is just so critical now. It's like really a weird linchpin. It is like the capstone in a strange way of like the three parable sequence in the olive discourse, which we already talked about, the 10 virgins, the talents, and the sheep and the goats.

Because it strikes me as you were speaking, Tony, what was coming to my mind is like each is almost escalating from, as it were, like a watchfulness to like a fruitfulness, to like a final judgment. And each of those are kind of building on each other. In other words, like there is a logical consistency and chronology to those things that Christ is leading us through.

And the verse therefore doesn't stand alone. It's like this hinge between the eschatological warning of the virgin narrative and the productive stewardship demanded in the parable of the talents. And I think unless you see that here, it's like saying, listen, the watchful person does this. You know, why should you be watchful because of this example I've just given to you.

So within that Oliver discourse, there's the exhortation to watchfulness, which occurs with that striking force. Stay awake, be ready, watch. And of course, I think we're just joining in all the reform exe and the pros who had this instinct of reading those with a unity. Yeah. The whole discourse is like the L, the Lord's own like pastoral Herman Hermeneutic, I guess on like Daniel nine or whatever.

So like it is important, and I think it is maybe a bridge that, at least in my mind, I often didn't build or didn't seem necessarily because you're like, well this, this ends one. And the warning is to be watchful. And now here's something else. That's something interesting you should consider. Yeah. But really this is all one and the same, all, all.

Maybe one like well like parable to rule all parables, like it's a single parable told in many sequential pieces.

[00:42:06] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Which is something we saw before, right? Yes. And maybe, maybe not to belabor the point and, and again taking, take this in the context of me saying I never want to try to make an argument that you must be able to read Greek in order to profit from the scriptures.

[00:42:20] Jesse Schwamb: Sure.

[00:42:20] Tony Arsenal: All of that said, it's very helpful to understand a little bit about how Greek works, even if you don't actually learn Greek. So for example, and here's, I promise you that this is not just me being nerdy about Greek. I'm looking at the ESV and verse 13 says, watch therefore for, you know, neither the day nor the hour.

Right? So the, the command comes, uh, before the logical connector that sort of like, is explaining why, right? Because of, because of something. Right? When it's the thing that comes before, maybe it's the thing that comes after, usually it's probably before, but because of this thing, watch therefore for, you know, neither they or the hour, right?

And then in verse 14 it says four. It will be like a man going on a journey. This is where I think understanding how Greek works a little bit is important. Both the word therefore and the word for. In Greek, which it's, it's therefore it's un OUN or omega upsilon new un and gar for four. Both of those are what's called post positive, and what that means is that it cannot be the first word in a sentence.

So, um, verse 13 is translated very word order, literal watch. Therefore that ma matches the Greek very closely. Verse 14 is not right, right. Verse 14, if you translated it very literally would be like, uh, let's see. Would be. Just as for a man, and I get like, you can hear there, right there, why we don't translate it that way is 'cause it's really awkward, but it's just as for a man, uh, a man went on a journey or a man, um, going on a journey who called his servants.

Right. The, the point of what I'm trying to say here though is that that subtle variation in the verb, the command coming first versus this post positive, logical connector coming first, that that sort of like gears your brain towards a certain conclusion. Right? Right. Watch, therefore we, we have a tendency to think like watch connects to the previous one.

Right? This verb must connect us to the previous one, where the next one we see four being the beginning of a word, beginning of a sentence. We feel like that's the beginning of a new thought, right? This logical connector at the be very beginning of a sentence is like starting a new thought. The problem with that is, one, it doesn't actually match the Greek word order in both cases.

Neither of these is the first word of the sentence, but let's just think of it in as a post positive and say that it should have been the first word of the sentence, but the Greek grammar won't allow it to be.

[00:45:00] Jesse Schwamb: Right.

[00:45:01] Tony Arsenal: That connector in both cases is linking us to the previous sentence, and that means both of these sentences are linking us to the previous sentence, meaning both segments of thought are linked to other together.

Verse 14 is linked to verse 13, and verse 13 is linked to verse 12. There's no good grammatical reason that I can see with the 30 seconds of looking at it and the five semesters of Greek, right? Keep that in mind. I'm not an expert, but there's no good reason I see immediately from the Greek text, right?

There are certain phrases and indicators in Greek that tell you like, this is a new segment of thought. I don't see those here. What I see is a very strong, strong, logical sequence of connection between 13 and 14, right? Therefore, watch for, you know, neither the day nor the hour. Well. Going back to our discussion about translating that in terms of sort of general watchfulness or preparedness or translating it in light of sleep.

These are the things that are important for us to think about when we're reading English translations. 'cause this keys us off to what the, what the translators thought in terms of what belongs with what translators. Even though there's a paragraph break here in the ESV, the translation that says be awake or be, you know, uh, do not sleep like this language that's specifically connected to this, like not falling asleep aspect of watchfulness, they're signaling to you that this sentence belongs with the parable above it.

Right. Almost exclusively. Right. Because there's nothing in the next parable that has anything to do with being awake or sleeping.

[00:46:35] Jesse Schwamb: Right?

[00:46:36] Tony Arsenal: Right. So, so by translating it as sleep language or do not sleep language, they're sealing it off from the parable that follows and they're kind of like making it this firm break in the text.

That's not there in the Greek. That language is not there in the Greek. And it's, um, again, I think the sleep language, that's certainly a part of this word and it's, it's fine for us to interpret this word in light of the parable that came before it, as long as we're not letting that interpretation of it in light of the word that came before it seal it off from the next parable.

And I, I worry that if we, if we think about it in terms of the sleepiness aspect of it, which again, there's already some contextual reasons why that doesn't make a lot of sense. Why would, why would Christ command to the people that are listening to him be about not falling asleep when falling asleep was not the problem in the, in the bearable He's told.

Right, right. But the problem was, was be prepared. And it actually may be, this is also maybe an overt translation. A better translation might be, be prepared, therefore, right. Be alert, be wakeful, be be mindful, be uh, be on top of things. Right. Be ready for anything. Might be a good way to look at this. Be ready for anything for you.

Neither know the day nor the hour. Four. It will be like a man going on a journey and called his servants and entrusted them to his property. So he tells the parable of the virgins, which is, is all about being prepared for the sudden, unexpected coming of the Lord after a delay, after he tarries. And then he says, for it will be like a man going on a journey.

Well, what will be like a man going on a journey? The coming of the Lord, the coming of the bridegroom, the coming of the one, the promised one from the previous parable, the bride groom. For that will be like a man going on a journey for the day on the hour, which you do not know. That will be like a man going on a journey, I think.

Um, and this will be the last thing I say before I, I let you jump in and, and we're getting close to ending anyways here. I think that, um, these parables are so often, uh, this parable about the talents and the parallels. I mean, there's several different par uh, parables that have to do with this theory.

This sort of like scenario of like a master is giving some, some funds to his servants, or a man going on a journey. He's giving some funds to his servants and he expects them to make a return. Right? That's a, there's multiple parables that tell that same basic principle. This one here. Is an eschatological one, but I think it gets clumped in with the others in sort of this idea.

And it doesn't hurt that the word talents has a meaning in English, right? It gets clumped in with these sort of like way of teaching this that's like Christ has given you some special abilities and some gifts, you better use it for his glory. Or you're all done. That's not really at all what this is talking about, at least this version of it.

You might be able to make an argument for some of the others that that is about kingdom fruitfulness and, and to much is given, much is expected, right? That's the output of those parables. This one is really, it's explicitly about being prepared for this sudden arrival of the bridegroom, uh, after he delays, after he tarries.

So that's all I'll say for now on that. I just, this is. This is why we had to do another episode, right? Like, because we couldn't do all of this Last week we started and we were like, we gotta push pause, save something for next week. This is one of those like realtime discoveries, realtime uh, epiphanies that I'm just like, I cannot believe I didn't see this in the text before, but I'm so glad that we're doing this deep dive.

This sort of like long running slow burns through these parables because these are the kinds of things we're able to see when we really slow down and take our time.

[00:50:17] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, it's that good old like crockpot theology. I'm with you. There is like in the next par we'll see a kind of manifest fruitfulness that comes from a preparedness and if, if we divorce that we're gonna get to the end of the next parable.

And I think what we'd find is that, wow, the master seems super harsh here. Why is he so ticked off that the people with whom he entrusted all of these resources didn't do anything with them? It just seems like he's overzealous in saying, well, you just wasted a lot of things until you see like that full emphasis that comes all the way through these other parables in terms of the reason why.

Then I think it starts to make more sense. So I did have to look it up like you're right, that the NIV has therefore keep watch. The King James version also is using watch, therefore. So if that's the emphasis, in other words, if the thrust is you ought to be watchful and prepared in all of your life for all the things preparing for Christ, doing the things in the work of Christ.

Now it makes sense that to go away again and to have this time of not knowing when the perusia happens and being unprepared and unfruitful because you were not watchful, because you did not do the things you ought to have done and be making yourself again aware and vigilant in that awareness, then there's a problem.

And that's like gonna be, I think, the full thrust of what's gonna happen that we're gonna see next when we look into this parable. I think it's important to remember that this parable is not as it sometimes is presented like an allegorize timeless moral maxim that's divorced from its eschatological referring.

Yeah, the 10 virgins are figures of those awaiting Christ perusia. The oil is not some kind like vague symbol of like good works in a ian sense, but I think it's best understood as the reality of saving grace and the spirits in dwelling, which cannot be borrowed or transferred. If all of that is true.

Then how does that manifest in daily living? What does that look like? And then what does that lead to on the day of judgment? All of that is to come for us, but it actually starts in this verse here in verse 13, just with the simple, very direct, but e expressly articulated phrase, be watchful or be prepared.

Maybe like a better incidentally, like contemporary treatment would be like, don't sleep on this. Like, I like the word sleep in that context. Yeah. Which of course, when somebody says that to you, they're not actually meaning like, don't fall asleep now. But make sure that you're paying attention to this thing.

Get after this thing, go and grab this thing, get a hold of this very thing. Make it your priority. And I think really that is what is Christ is after here as he moves us from one example into another. That's almost, again, to me like the manifestation or the outworking 'cause because one might ask, and maybe this is like a good question, he was anticipating, you hear that story and we're just used to like things moving, or like you said, like discreet chunks of text, which we appropriate for ourselves.

We take out, it's almost as they have little boxes on the shelf and we remove that box. We look at it, we study it, we turn over, we put it back, and it's a little compartment place. And instead you can imagine, uh, as I could, I think if you were hearing this in the context of conversation, of teaching in this way, that you might say like, so what?

Like be prepared for what, how do we get prepared? What does preparedness look like? And so that's what's coming for us next.

[00:53:34] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. And you know, the other thing I think that's, um, important for this parable, um, there are some places in the scripture in the, uh, in the gospels where Christ's teaching and nothing specific comes to mind.

So this is. Hypothetical, but I know there are actual places. I just can't think of anything right off the top of my head. There are some places where sort of like discrete chunks of Christ's teaching are juxtaposed next to other discreet chunks. Sure. That's an editorial decision by the gospel author.

Right. Matthew makes a decision to put this story next to this story, and we might see in Luke actually, it's slightly different. A good, a good example would be like in the temptation narratives, um, the order of the Temptations is different I think between Matthew and Luke. Right. And there's, there's an editorial decision that's made there and there's a theological reason.

I don't know off the top of my head what it is. I'm sure I studied it in, you know, like gospels class in seminary. Um, that's not what's happening here, right? These are not two discreet chunks of text. That Matthew has decided to put together, right? Right. Christ is the one that says, watch therefore for you.

Neither know the day nor the hour for it will be like a man going on a journey. Christ is the one who has decided, and this is one chunk of teaching. There's, um, like the Sermon on the Mount, I guess is maybe the classic example. The, the fact is Jesus probably did not deliver that entire section of text in one sitting.

Um, and in fact, actually it's, it's more likely that there was much more teaching going on in that like, section of text that that's not recorded. So Matthew has made an editorial decision to probably truncate Christ's actual teaching for a specific theological purpose, right? That's not what's going on here.

Christ himself has strung these different parables together, and we know that because Christ is the one who, who is using. Um, granted Christ was probably speaking in Aramaic Matthews exercising some editorial discretion in what, what words he's using when he translates Christ's words into Greek from Right.

Probably Aramaic. Um. But whatever he's saying, Christ is the one that was originating these, these logical connections, right? Arame has these same kind of logical connector words, and Matthew is choosing Greek words to translate them, but Christ himself, um. In his human mode of teaching his human nature.

Right? Christ as the master teacher who has to think about discursively, has to think about what teaching he's going to give and in what order and how is he gonna connect them. Right? Not in the sense of like, the Holy Spirit is inspired, this text, so of course it comes together in an intentional way. But Christ, when he planned, or, or as he was spontaneously delivering this, you know, I'm not sure if like Christ sat down and like wrote out his sermons or thought out his sermons ahead of time.

[00:56:34] Jesse Schwamb: Right.

[00:56:35] Tony Arsenal: Um, Christ was the one who decided that the parable of the talents, uh, was a proper explainer for the parable of the, the fool wise and foolish virgins. Christ was the one who decided that, um, that because of what he said in verses one through 13 of Matthew 25, because of that. Uh, he, we need to be watchful and that, uh, because we need to be watchful or just as, uh, like the day or the hour, it will be like a man going under that was Christ's decision to put those together.

Right. So I think we've talked about this almost like tangentially in another context that it, it's a little bit interesting. Um, I'm not personally a fan of like chronological Bible readings. I don't know if you and I have talked about this before, but like the Bible is inspired, right? Right. And God chose to put the cannon, uh, although I could be convinced that the, the canonical arrangement might be.

Holy Spirit, something along the lines of inspired, right? There's certain elements that I think go together by providence. Um, but, but for sure within the text, the, the, within a given body of text, the final form of the text we have is an inspired arrangement, right? Um, that is just as true when we're talking about, uh, not wanting to do chronological Bible readings because it breaks up inspired texts.

There's nothing immoral about that. I just don't like it. 'cause God chose for certain texts to be next to each other within the Book of Chronicles, for example. Or within the Psalms, for example. Um. That's the same dynamic that's going on here, right? This is not, um, not only within the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, but within Christ's own human mind as he's planning and formulating this teaching and delivering it, versus one through 13 is inextricably linked with verses 14 and following.

Um, and I know that we're, we're not even gonna have enough time to read verses 14 and following. 'cause that's kind of how we roll on this as we spend an hour talking about what we're gonna talk about before we actually talk about it.

[00:58:41] Jesse Schwamb: That's

[00:58:41] Tony Arsenal: right. But I think it was important for us to sort of like land that connection and really nail it because.

Again, I will just speak for myself. The idea of reading these two parables together as a pair, as a, as a cohesive whole, as a single unit in Christ's teaching is totally new to me starting last week. Like this is a totally new

[00:59:05] Jesse Schwamb: I

[00:59:05] Tony Arsenal: agree. Way of looking at this. It probably shouldn't be

[00:59:08] Jesse Schwamb: right.

[00:59:08] Tony Arsenal: Um, like I said, most of the commentaries that you look at are gonna tell you that these two are connected.

If, if they're worth their salt, um, because of this grammatical constructs and e even just be thematically, they make sense. But in the sort of cursory look that I've had and the various ways that I've been taught these parables in. This is not a slam on youth ministry. 'cause I love those who minister to our youth.

And I think it's important, but especially in the context of youth ministry. I made a joke earlier about how the word talent sort of like directs us to a certain understanding of what this passage means, and we'll talk about that when we get there.

[00:59:44] Jesse Schwamb: Right. I,

[00:59:44] Tony Arsenal: I think that's actually like really a dynamic that's a problem.

And this sort of like, you better live your life for Jesus. Like, don't waste your retirement. Like that kind of like language, um, that often uses this parable as like a, you better be working hard for Jesus because when he comes back you wanna have those 10 cities when you get to heaven. Not just the five.

Like that, that is a distortion at minimum. That's a distortion of what this parable is actually teaching, if not a downright like contradictory teaching. I think in some ways,

[01:00:19] Jesse Schwamb: right. I totally agree with you. I think the best way I can think about this now after we've had this conversation for an hour is lemme provide an old school example for anybody that's ever seen Wheel of Fortune.

It occurred to me that they have this particular puzzle, which I had to look up 'cause I couldn't remember what it was called, but it's a phrase puzzle. It's made by stringing two phrases together that share a common word. Yeah. So one phrase is a word at the end, one at the beginning. So examples might be like, back to the future party or home sweet homework or break the ice cream or piece of cake walk.

What strikes me now is verse 13 is this, that's the linchpins, the phrase. That phrase puzzle here, that brings together the parable of the divergence and the parable of the talents, and they share that middle part in joint connection so that there is a smooth transition from one to the other. So much so that you don't even realize, or probably shouldn't realize that they are different.

But merely that's, it's not, it's more than a continuation, right? It is bringing together, again, an example of what it means to be aware that you need to be prepared, and then what it looks like that your preparedness has taken place. So I think at least today, what we've learned is that this verse again, of course, teaches clearly that Christ is coming and nobody knows when, and that the only then fitting response is a spirit sustained readiness expressed in every dimension of life.

And so I think next week we're gonna get into an example of what that looks like.

[01:01:42] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. Well, Jesse, this has been a phenomenal conversation today. I'm really edified. It has, you know, as we. You and I talked about last, last week before we, after we turned off the microphones, like it's been so edifying to me to just work my way through these parables slowly.

Right? Um, I found the same thing when we worked through Mica and, and even, even when like working through the Scot's confession slowly. Like there's something about taking. A, a topic and, and of course like God's word is the supreme topic, but something about going through I'm, I'm stealing a book out or a, a play outta Matt Whitman's book here, actually.

Like, I so appreciate the blessing in my life that working through these parables has been, and honestly, I don't think I would ever have slowed down enough in these kinds of parables apart from the fact that we're doing this on the podcast. And so I wanna say thank you to our podcast audience. Um,

[01:02:40] Jesse Schwamb: yes,

[01:02:41] Tony Arsenal: we've commented in the past and I think we mean it, but although, although we mean it, I'm not always a hundred percent.

It's true. Um, we would probably be having these kinds of conversations or similar conversations without microphones. Like Jesse and I text with each other, we chat with each other regularly. I don't think we would sit down and work our way through the parables verse by verse, right. Over the course of years, probably.

No. Um, you know, as, uh, if it wasn't for the podcast, so thank you to the people who listen to our show, who give us a good excuse to do this. Like Yeah. Amen. There's not a lot of people who can justify taking an hour or two hours outta their week to just sit down and talk about theology. Um, I know we all love, we all wish we could do that, and we all love when we have the sort of random opportunity to sit down with someone and just chat theology for a couple hours.

But Jesse and I get to do that every week and it's been a huge blessing for more than 10 years now. We're coming up on 500 episodes. Um, it's been a huge blessing in my life. I know it's been a blessing in Jesse's life. My, our wives might not always say it this way, but I can tell you actually it's been a blessing in their lives.

[01:03:48] Jesse Schwamb: Yes, for sure.

[01:03:48] Tony Arsenal: I know that there have been times that my wife has been benefited from, from not just things she's heard on the podcast. My, this is gonna sound so grandiose, and it's not meant to be like, my ability to lead as a husband and to love my wife is improved when God sanctifies me. And the podcast has been a source of sanctification Right on for my life.

Right on. So thank you so much to everyone who puts their trust in us and literally lets us beam our thoughts directly into your brain every week. Uh, it's a huge blessing and an honor, and we take that very seriously. So I, and there's no, I'm gonna just like, there's no Patreon hook now. If you guys wanna donate, you know how to do that.

This is just a genuine thank you for trusting us and for giving us the opportunity to do this work, this theology publicly together. It's a huge blessing in my life.

[01:04:37] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, I agree. I'll listen. Loved ones. You don't have to take our word for it. You know what to do, honor everyone.

[01:04:44] Tony Arsenal: Love that brotherhood.

In this profound exploration of Matthew 25:1-13, Tony Arsenal and Jesse Schwamb unpack the parable of the ten virgins, revealing it as far more than a simple warning about preparedness. Moving beyond dispensational "rapture ready" interpretations, they demonstrate how this parable addresses the spiritual condition required for entrance into God's consummated kingdom. The discussion centers on the critical distinction between outward religious profession and genuine possession of the Holy Spirit's grace. With pastoral sensitivity and theological depth, the hosts examine the meaning of the oil, the significance of the midnight cry, and the urgency of both evangelism and personal examination. This episode challenges listeners to consider whether they possess not just the lamp of profession, but the oil of saving grace that alone sustains faith through the waiting period before Christ's return.

Key Takeaways

• The oil represents saving grace, not perfect obedience - The critical distinction in the parable is not between those who stayed awake versus those who slept (all ten virgins fell asleep), but between those who possessed oil and those who didn't. The oil symbolizes the indwelling, regenerating, sanctifying presence of the Holy Spirit—the grace that comes through effectual calling and genuine conversion.
• This parable warns against mere outward profession - All ten virgins carried lamps and waited for the bridegroom, representing outward religious activity and profession. The difference lay in the interior spiritual reality—whether that profession was accompanied by the transforming grace of the Holy Spirit or remained empty formalism.
• The "midnight cry" represents both personal death and Christ's return - Historically, Reformed expositors understood the midnight cry as either the actual cry of Christ's angels at His return or the voice of God in individual death. Each person's death functions as their personal midnight that irrevocably fixes their eternal state.
• Readiness is not about sinless perfection but possession of grace - The parable is not teaching a fearful "rapture ready" theology where Christians must be perfectly sinless when Christ returns. Rather, it teaches that readiness consists in possessing saving grace through faith in Christ, which sustains believers even when they "sleep" (fall into sin or spiritual drowsiness).
• There is urgency in the gospel call - The parable emphasizes that the opportunity for salvation has a deadline—"you know neither the day nor the hour." This creates urgency both for unbelievers to trust Christ and for believers to share the gospel, since no one knows when their personal "midnight" will arrive.
• Calvin's insight: you "buy" oil by receiving it freely through faith - Though the parable speaks of "buying" oil, Calvin notes this doesn't imply paying a price. Just as Isaiah invites people to buy wine and milk without money, we obtain the oil of grace not through merit or payment, but by receiving through faith what Christ freely offers.

Key Concepts The Oil as Symbol of the Holy Spirit's Grace

The oil in this parable has been consistently interpreted throughout church history as representing the grace of the Holy Spirit—specifically the indwelling, regenerating, and sanctifying presence that comes through genuine conversion. This interpretation aligns with Old Testament symbolism where anointing oil signified the Spirit's presence (as in "not by might, nor by power, but by my Spirit"). The crucial distinction Jesus makes is not about external religious activity (both groups had lamps and waited), but about internal spiritual reality. Just as a lamp cannot burn without oil, religious profession without the Spirit's grace has no sustaining power. This oil cannot be shared or borrowed; it must be personally possessed. The parable thus exposes the deadly danger of assuming that outward Christian activities—church attendance, biblical knowledge, moral behavior—constitute genuine Christianity when the transforming work of the Spirit is absent.

All the Virgins Slept: Grace Overcomes Human Weakness

One of the most important details often overlooked is that both the wise and foolish virgins fell asleep while waiting for the bridegroom. This demolishes any interpretation suggesting the parable is about maintaining perfect spiritual vigilance or sinless living. The wise virgins' readiness was not based on their superior wakefulness or moral stamina—they fell asleep just like the foolish ones. Their preparedness came from having secured the oil beforehand. This has profound theological implications: our salvation and readiness for Christ's return does not depend on our ability to maintain perfect spiritual alertness or sinless perfection. Even when believers "sleep"—when they fall into sin, experience spiritual dullness, or fail in vigilance—they remain prepared because they possess the oil of the Spirit's grace. The parable thus provides comfort alongside its warning: those who have truly received Christ need not live in constant fear that a moment of weakness will disqualify them when He returns.

The Midnight Cry and Personal Eschatology

The midnight cry in verse 6 functions on multiple levels theologically. Universally, it points to Christ's unexpected second coming at the end of history. But Reformed interpreters have also recognized its application to individual eschatology—each person's death serves as their personal "midnight cry" that ends all opportunity for preparation. This dual meaning creates urgency both for evangelism and self-examination. The parable warns that whether Christ returns globally or death comes individually, that moment will arrive unexpectedly ("at midnight," the hour of deepest sleep) and irrevocably fix one's eternal state. Once the door is shut, no amount of pleading ("Lord, Lord, open to us") can change one's condition. This underscores a biblical truth often denied in contemporary theology: there is no post-mortem opportunity for salvation, no remedial path after death. The time for obtaining oil is now, in this life, before the cry sounds.

Memorable Quotes

Every man's death to him is the coming of Christ. That's when our state is irrevocably fixed. And so there's an urgency here—an urgency of evangelism and self-examination because the midnight cry may come at any moment.

The difference between the wise and the foolish virgins is not that one of them stays awake and one of them falls asleep. The difference between the wise and the foolish is that the ones that are wise are prepared for when the bridegroom comes, even though they fell asleep.

The only way to be prepared for the end is to turn to Jesus. It's not about whether or not you've turned to Jesus and have become perfectly sinless. None of us are like that. It's about trusting Jesus.

Full Episode Transcript

Welcome to episode 494 of The Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse.

[00:01:10] Tony Arsenal: And I'm Tony. And this is the podcast with ears to hear. Hey brother.

[00:01:15] Jesse Schwamb: Hey brother. Looks like you and I need to get a midnight oil check. That's if you know, you know, that's what's coming up on this episode, and we're headed to Matthew 25 to do that oil check.

We're still firmly in all of these beautiful parables that Jesus tells us, and this one goes by various names. You might know it as the parable of the 10 virgins, or if you're Petra. That classic Christian rock group who produced a song called Midnight Oil, which is absolutely a banger that that should be like the the theme song of this episode.

If you haven't heard that song, go check out Midnight Oil by Petra and then come back and listen to us. Like, I wish we had the rights to that. We could just drop it in right here. But we're not that cool and we're not gonna edit that. So I'm gonna leave it up to you to craft your own version of this podcast with that great backing track.

Have you heard that song?

[00:02:09] Tony Arsenal: I actually haven't. I, I came, uh, came into Christianity sort of at the tail end of Petra's Big Influence. So I know, I knew who Petra is. I've listened to a few of their songs, but they weren't mainstream by any sort, sort of, uh, stretch of the imagination when I was listening to Christian music.

So

[00:02:28] Jesse Schwamb: this one's so good. It's so good. And it's right on point for our conversation today. So we're gonna get into all that stuff. The oil check, the midnight nature of it, the 10 virgins. What does it all mean? Of course, Tony and me, we have for you what I believe to be the definitive exegetical and hermeneutical reflection on the parable.

So that's what you've come to expect from us and we're happy to deliver, but before we deliver on that, we got all the things we have to deliver to you, and that is affirming with or denying against something that's that point of course in the podcast or our conversation where we choose something they firm with that we think is.

Undervalued, something we might recommend or conversely to deny against something that maybe is a little bit too overvalued or just not that great. So Tony, as is our customer, I say to you, sir, what are you doing? Are you affirming with something or are you denying against something?

[00:03:16] Denial Memory Blank

[00:03:16] Tony Arsenal: I'm denying something.

This is like denial. Ception is what's going on here. So, uh, first of all, thank you, Jesse for, uh, pitch hitting a solo episode at like, literally the last minute, last week. Um, I think we normally record at seven 30 on the Lord's Day, and I think I texted Jesse like 6 45 and was like, I just don't have it in the tank today.

Can you do something? And he just hopped behind the mic. So that's a bonus affirmation there. But, uh, Jesse and I were, we're having a little bit of a pregame, uh, today, very much, you know, like five minutes of how you doing and are you ready to go? And, uh, I realized I, I had a really great affirmation last week, all ready to rock.

I remember being super excited about it. I remember, uh, when I decided, or when we decided you were gonna do a solo episode thinking, I gotta make sure I remember this for next week. Right? And it has totally left my brain. It's gone. And, uh, it's, it's the worst feeling in the world when that happens. And I remember reading at some point, like, there's a biochemical reason why this happens and why it feels so weird.

Like, it, it feels like you should be able to just dive into your mind and like search around enough and find it. And that's just not actually how your, how like your memory works. It's not, um. I think we think of memory as though it's like a big filing cabinet and you can just, like, you can just flip through the CAD catalog like long enough and find it.

That's not how it works. Um, it's kind of like more organic network kind of stuff. But yeah, the, the, it's gone. It's just gone and I hate that feeling and it's gone. And that's what I'm denying is that feeling and losing your mind and feeling like you don't remember anything.

[00:04:56] Jesse Schwamb: I'm totally with you because incidentally, as we talked, we discovered we both had that experience because I had something too.

And it's not just that, well, you know, we try to set aside or do a little prep on the affirmations and denials because you know, we come across something great in life, or again, the opposite. And you think, I gotta remember this because I wanna talk about this with Tony. And the worst part of that is like twofold.

One, it never is great to forget something that you had or you knew you knew at one time, but it's all the less satisfying when it was something that you're super excited about and you're like, this is gonna be great. And it's that thing that you've completely forgotten that's like double the worst. So I'm, I'm totally with you in this denial.

[00:05:35] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, it's, it's a really frustrating, terrible feeling. And there's not much you can do about it. And the, the secondary denial to that is it always comes back to you in the worst possible part of whatever conversation you're having. It's like you hem and hover it and you think about it and you, and I'm doing it right now.

You, you sit here and you, you continue to try to talk thingy. It's gonna come, it's gonna come. Yes. It's gonna get here.

[00:05:59] Jesse Schwamb: Yep.

[00:06:00] Tony Arsenal: And then just when you finally have resigned yourself and, and the conversation moves on, that's when it comes back around. So I don't know if that's gonna happen or not, Jesse. If it does, I will try my best to ignore it, but I probably won't be able to.

So No, I think you probably should get moving. So whatever it was the amazing affirmation, I don't remember. It can come back to us.

[00:06:16] Jesse Schwamb: It can come back. Yeah. I'm hoping that it does. And when it does, you guys just tell us you got, just let it, let it rip. Like even if we're like right in the middle of some deep, heavy, robust, thick theology, I just wanna be like.

I, I can't even imagine what your affirmation was. It must have been like something pretty, pretty good.

[00:06:33] Tony Arsenal: I don't know. I don't know. I, I'm sure it was something interesting. I don't even, I'm

[00:06:37] Jesse Schwamb: trying to draw it out of you now.

[00:06:38] Tony Arsenal: Course. I can't even like, think of the ballpark of what part of like, what, what the category even was.

It's just totally, it's totally gone. Like it never happened. Yep. It's, it's totally, totally gone. So I keep on saying, and you would think with all of my talk of like note taking apps and how important it's to keep a journal and all the stuff we've talked about that I would finally get around to like just jotting down in Apple Notes what my affirmations are and I just never do it.

So. Yeah,

[00:07:05] Jesse Schwamb: I have every intention, but then I think, well, this is the record of them and I'll have it available to me when it comes time. The talk that's, and sometimes it just goes away. Has it happened yet? I'm still trying to draw it out of you by talking.

[00:07:15] Tony Arsenal: No, I'm just gonna give up. It's just gone. It's gone.

That's just gone.

[00:07:19] Jesse Schwamb: That's, that's fair enough. Maybe. What do you

[00:07:21] Tony Arsenal: got for us, Jesse?

[00:07:22] Prayer and Anointing

[00:07:22] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, I was gonna say, maybe I can just help push it along, as it were by my own. So I'm also affirming with something, lemme just read a couple verses from James chapter five. Is anyone Among You Sick? Then he must call for the elders of the church and there to pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord.

And the prayer offered in faith will save the one who's sick and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, they'll be forgiven him. I had really just the profound opportunity and privilege today to participate in this because. My wife at the end of this week, uh, which will be a week past when this is, this airs, is about to go undergo that serious surgery, which she spoke about in an episode, I don't know, maybe several weeks ago.

And, uh, my pastor asked if it would, if he'd like us and the elders, um, to come and to pray over my wife. And they did so after our service today. And it was just a really incredible thing. Even I'm still processing it. I don't really know. Like the words to say with what I can bring forward is just like words of gratitude and gratefulness for this kind of living out of the scriptures.

What I can say is that the way in which he brought this forward and the elders prayed was just so incredibly loving and genteel and spirit-filled. And I think which is a manifestation of, of God's love for us in this moment as we prepare for this great thing to give us peace, peace, and to increase our faith and to do so by just following what the scriptures say here.

So my affirmation is maybe twofold. One, it's for this particular experience, it's certainly for pastors, for elders who make it their objective to care for their flock and to do so under the rubric and the instruction of the scriptures. So I'm grateful, and if you have those kind of pastors and elders in your life, I hope that you'll be grateful to them for them as well, and that you might express that gratefulness.

So this was a really incredible and, and lovely thing, and, uh, fills us with a kind of hope and encouragement. And if anything else was a reminder of the feel, there's something different going to experience like this armed fully with the promises of God and asking that he would be glorified, that our testimonies would be strong, and that of course, that he would bring healing through it.

So I'm ever so grateful and affirming what this passage and this passage put into practice.

[00:09:51] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. And if you are listening to this, when, uh, when it comes out or shortly after, probably not even shortly after, probably for a couple weeks after or months after, um, uh, Jesse's wife Jen did talk about the surgery and the condition she's been suffering under.

So, uh, she's part of the Reformed Brotherhood family. She is, uh, just as important to the show, uh, as Jesse and I are in terms of the support that our wives give us and, and the space that we need to do this. So please do pray for Jen. Um, she'll be recovering when you hear this, if it's anywhere near the time that this comes out.

Uh, it's a fairly large surgery with a, a, a moderately long recovery time. So please, uh, please do pray for her, uh, and, and make sure that you're lifting her up. Um, we are trusting the Lord for good things, uh, for her. Yes. And uh, we're confident that he, his will will be done 'cause it always is. But yeah, definitely pray for her.

[00:10:42] Jesse Schwamb: Yes. Thank you for saying that, Tony. I appreciate that as her husband and. We are encouraged that we've said this before, but this is where our theology matters, isn't it? It's in the times where we come before the Lord in faith and in full trust, because one, there's nowhere else to go. He has the words of life for us.

He is our life, but also because. In his son, this beautiful gift of salvation whereby his son is the suffering servant. So he's well acquainted with all of this kind of thing. And so stands with us in every conceivable way to be both so incredibly transcendent and above the nonsense and the noise of our world with full power and sovereignty over all things.

And at the same time, to be fully eminent. To be literally with us in all the ways. In all the things. And again, well acquainted with our condition, including the grief and the suffering, the anxiety, the all of this, which we experience as part and parcel of what it means to be human, who is like our God in this way.

And so we do sense his great and uncommon care for us, and it would be dishonest of me even in the midst of these difficult and challenging things to say that he doesn't care for us. He has good and he loves us, and he's making a way, even though that way be hired. So we're sensing even from, I think, following that time of prayer, that whether we receive the bread of affliction.

Uh, or the, the water of of agony that we hear God's voice behind us saying, this is the way, walk in it, and he's with us. So I hope that's encouragement maybe to others who are also going through their own things and who isn't going through something, right?

[00:12:18] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.

[00:12:18] Jesse Schwamb: So we all have this great promise in the gospel that God is for us, and I love that James here gives us some practical instruction to that end.

[00:12:29] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, for sure.

[00:12:31] Support the Show

[00:12:31] Tony Arsenal: Well, before we move into our topic for the evening, uh, the internet tells me that I'm supposed to do this at this point in the show rather than at the very end like we usually do. Well, let's do it. Um, we are a listener supported episode, not like PBS, uh, not like other things. Uh, maybe kind of a little bit like PBS Yeah, a little bit.

Anyway, uh, we have a, a pretty dedicated group of Patreon supporters who, uh, donate a little bit and sometimes some people, a lot, a bit of their discretionary income, uh, to help make the show go. And we've said before, like, we are not interested in providing special content or special gear or swag every once in a while.

I think we did it once and we've, we've got plans to do it again sometime in the future. We'll send out a thank you gift to those who are subscribing through Patreon. Um, but we are committed to producing the show and making everything that we put online and everything that we make available, available to everybody.

And really the only reason that we can do that, especially in today's economy, is uh, because there are people who support the show. And so we always want to make sure that we're saying we're thank you to those people. Yes. Um, they are a part of this show. I don't know if we are not gonna do like executive producer credits, but they're as close to that as you can get.

Since we don't do that, um, we really wouldn't be able to do the show, at least not the way that it is without that supporting group of people. So if that's something that you hear and you no, I kind of think that maybe I wanna be a part of that. We would love for you to go to patreon.com/reform tears.

There's no special swag, there's no early releases or anything like that. Um, but we would love if you would partner with us. Um, this is a lowercase m ministry, and if you've listened to the show for a long time, you know what I mean by that. Uh, we, we do consider this to be a calling, something that God has given us and we, we understand there's a responsibility with it, but we also know that we can't do it alone.

So if you're interested after you've fulfilled all your personal finance obligations, your obligation to your local church and your immediate area, if there's a little bit left over that you're looking to spend somewhere on something that is valuable, uh, please do consider going to patreon.com/form Brotherhood.

[00:14:39] Jesse Schwamb: And if you've been listening for a while and you've thought, you know what, I wonder who else is out there that's like me, that's listening to these guys on the internet. Guess what? You can actually meet some of those people. They have a little spot where they hang out. It's called Telegram. It's just a chat app, and we have our own little section of that app.

If you just go to your favorite browser, whatever it is, you can choose and go to wherever you like, just go to t me slash Reform Brotherhood. And that link will take you into kind of a preview land where you can see the space where everybody's talking, and you can peruse some of the different channels, everything from uh, channels just for prayer, for a crusting, prayer to general conversation, talk about the episodes, talk about baptism, all kinds of things.

It is, as we always say, one of the kindest, most charitable, most loving corners of the internet. Guaranteed. You can test us on that. So in fact, you should by going to t.me back slash reform Brotherhood, Tony, back to you.

[00:15:36] Eschatology Shift

[00:15:36] Tony Arsenal: Well, let's just slam it right into gear. We, we, we haven't figured out how to do transitions into or out of, uh, Patreon announcements, uh, or telegram announcements,

[00:15:46] Jesse Schwamb: right?

[00:15:46] Tony Arsenal: So this, I, maybe this is the awkward charm of the show, or maybe it's just the awkwardness of the show. It's just charm, Jesse,

[00:15:53] Jesse Schwamb: all charm.

[00:15:53] Tony Arsenal: We need to talk about some things tonight. We need to talk about some oil. Yes. We need to talk about some lamps. Yes. We need talk about some bridegrooms.

[00:16:00] Jesse Schwamb: Yes.

[00:16:00] Tony Arsenal: It's the parable of the 10 virgins or the 10 lamps, or the parable of the oil flasks. Yes. There's lots of different things that it's called. Uh, it's what it isn't, it's not the parable of, uh, the 24 hour Jiffy Lube, which is what it made, what you made it sound like when you talked about the midnight oil check.

Um,

[00:16:18] Jesse Schwamb: I

[00:16:18] Tony Arsenal: didn't even think about that. But yeah. This is, this is a good one. And I think we've, we've sort of. I've sort of observed that the parables do tend to clump around systematic theology themes, and they clump within the narrative of the gospel within Matthew itself around themes. So the last three parables that we talked about were all sort of like parables of judgment against the Pharisees and a, a lot of things like unconditional election and reparation were all baked into that pie.

You know, we talked about with the parable of the lost sheep and the lost coins and the lost, um, the lost, uh, brother. We talked about how that has a lot to do with like election. It has to do with salvation and what the gospel looks like in terms of justification in the father's initiative. And we're moving into a section of Matthew, um, where Jesus is starting to teach on the last days.

And so the parables in this section start to move toward ha to have more of an eschatological bent. Yes. We talked a little bit about some of the eschatology and the parables when we, we went through the, um, through the, the. Um, my brain just left me. It happened again, Jesse. The, the denial thing, uh, when we talked about the parable of the tears and the wind field and the, the, the different kinds of soils back on track, there was an eschatological element to that.

But we are in like straight up eschatology Yeah. In these, these sections now. That's right. So we're coming to the end of Matthew, uh, our plan right now and who knows what the Lord has for us. But the plan right now is once we finish Matthew, to go back and visit some of the parables that are present in the other gospels.

And there's not too many of 'em, but that are present in the other gospels that aren't necessarily, uh, present in Matthew. So, like you said, there's not a ton of 'em. Uh, we do want to hit all of 'em. And if there's, if there's time, and I say if there's time as though we have some sort of time constraints, um, if there's time we probably will talk a little bit about some of the I am statements and some of the things in John.

'cause John doesn't do parables quite the same way in quite the same fashion, but he does have sort of some of this. Allegorical figurative language baked into some of his, um, some of his writings or some of the accounts of Jesus that he, he, um, captures that are probably worth talking about in the seam light.

So right now we're, we're coming up quick on the end of the parables of Matthew. Um, there's not very many left and then we'll, we'll keep moving on. Uh, that said. We are, it's almost unbelievable to say this. We're going to be coming up to the end of the parable series sometime in the next, I dunno, six to 10 months.

Uh, if you've got ideas for what you think the next series should be, start thinking about those now. Bring 'em to the telegram chat. Let's start percolating those ideas up, right? And, uh, like a good coffee maker. And we'll, uh, we'll brew some goodness. How many more parables? How many more, uh, metaphors can I throw in there?

Puns, can I throw in there? But yeah, Jesse, let's get started. This is a good one.

[00:19:08] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, that was a really, I think, fine introduction. I always enjoyed this parable because it has some really fun, dramatic elements, but I think I, I really haven't really appreciated all the eschatological underpinnings that you were just mentioning.

And when you think about it as we're, I think we're gonna soon find here. That this is one of the most searching and solemn parables, actually, that Jesus uttered, and you start to get a sense for that as we've just kind of been hitting them, one after the other. As you said, this one belongs to the great olive discourse.

It's delivered by Jesus to his disciples on the Mount of Olives just days before his crucifixion. It's in direct response to their questions about the destruction of Jerusalem and the sign of his condiment coming and the end of the age. So you're right. I think this carries like unmistakable eschatological weight because it's not merely this fable about preparedness in general, which sometimes is where we go.

Yeah. But it's really more of like a precise theological warning about the spiritual condition required for entrance into the consummated kingdom of God at the return of the Lord Jesus Christ.

[00:20:11] Tony Arsenal: Yeah,

[00:20:11] Jesse Schwamb: I think that's the full setup.

[00:20:12] Read Matthew 25

[00:20:12] Jesse Schwamb: We, we've gotta go to the scriptures, right?

[00:20:15] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.

[00:20:16] Jesse Schwamb: Alright. It's time. You want me to read it?

[00:20:17] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, yeah, go ahead.

[00:20:18] Jesse Schwamb: Okay. Here we go. Matthew 25, beginning in verse one, then the kingdom of heaven may be compared to 10 virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bride groom. Now, five of them were foolish and five were prudent for when the foolish took their lamps. They took no oil with them, but the prudent took oil in flasks along with their lamps.

Now while the bridegroom was delaying, they all got drowsy and began to sleep. But at midnight there was a shout. Behold the bridegroom come out to meet him. Then all those virgins rose and trimmed their lamps. And the foolish said to the prudent, give us some of your oil for our lamps are going out. But the prudent answered saying, no, there will not be enough for us and for you too.

Go instead to the dealers and buy some for yourselves. And while they're going away to make the purchase, that bridegroom came and those who already went in with him to the wedding feast and the door was shut. And later the other versions came also saying, Lord, Lord, open for us. But he answered and said, truly, I say to you, I do not know you.

Therefore, stay awake for you do not know the day nor the hour.

[00:21:27] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.

[00:21:29] Assurance Not Fear

[00:21:29] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, this one's heavy. And I just wanna say, kind of coming into this, right, I think a lot of our audience, and I would, I would include myself in this, um, we, we came to sort of like an awareness of faith. And I, I don't say that in a sort of tongue in cheek fashion.

What I mean, um. I'll, I'll just speak from my perspective, but I think it's probably one that resonates. I came to faith when I was a, you know, a relatively young teenager, 15 years old, and, um, when you first become a Christian, you're not aware of all the different theological debates or even all of the major implications of the Christian faith.

And I think a lot of us and myself, uh, as, as sort of the example when we be started to become aware of the different conversations happening in different dynamics and some of the more, uh, maybe third or fourth tier doctrines that you learn when you're, um, sort of being catechized as a new Christian, uh, catechized in sort of an informal sense, eschatology is probably one of those ones that comes along fairly, fairly late in the game.

And I recall, um, when I first became aware of the left behind books, right? And so I, I came to faith in a large Lutheran megachurch, uh, that wasn't really as Lutheran as you would think, cup being a large Lutheran megachurch. It was very dispensational. And I think there is a sense of dread and fear associated with rapture ready theology.

And I don't, I don't think all dispensationalist that, um, believe in a, a literal rapture of the church either prior to or following or in the middle of the tribulation. I don't think all dispensationalist fall into this category. But there are definitely dispensationalist out there that would emphasize being rapture ready.

And you know, you think of like the song, I wish We'd All Been Ready, you know, and, and this, this sort of existential fear that the Rapture's gonna come and I'm not gonna be ready and I'm gonna be left behind. Right. There's an, the entire book series is about people who thought that they were Christians who thought that they were justified and saved and then weren't.

And, and I don't think the book gives all that much explanation other than sort of like a general sense of like, these are sort of nominal fake Christians that maybe some of them think they're saved and some of them don't. I know there were definitely characters in the book who really thought that they were followers of Jesus and then they didn't realize they weren't until they were not raptured with everyone else.

The only reason I sort of launch into that progam is I think that the tendency in most circles because of the pervasive. Sort of all expansive influence of dispensationalism in the United States, and particularly sort of this like rapture ready, left behind theology that is a, a major thread within, um, American dispensationalism.

There's a tendency to look at this almost exclusively in light of that sort of rapture ready fear that right the end is gonna come and I'm not gonna be ready and. I don't, I'm not a dispensationalist, I don't hold to a rapture in that sense. I don't think you do either. Jesse and I, I think there's an element of this that has that same flavor that we have to acknowledge, but I don't think we should read this in light of like, you think you're gonna be fine, but actually you're not.

So you better get it together. I don't think that that's the point of the parable. Um, and I wanna say that upfront because it is easy to read a parable like this and to, to become extremely fearful to the point that it actually shakes whatever assurance you may have had. And I've said it before and, and I, I will say it again, it is not, I am not in the business of robbing the assurance away from Christians.

The assurance of faith and the assurance of salvation is the rightful possession and inheritance of all those who are Christ. And so I have no, no desire to shake or rob you of your assurance. That's just not my jam. Um, so I wanted to get that out there. Like I don't think that this parable is here. To scare the daylights out of us and make us question whether or not we actually belong to the bridegroom.

I actually think it's here for a different reason.

[00:25:39] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, I agree.

[00:25:40] Watch and Be Ready

[00:25:40] Jesse Schwamb: I, I think this may have more in common with like the tears in the wheat parable that we've spoken about before versus trying to promulgate a particular understanding of eschatology. There's no doubt that this is calibrated to the period preceding the perusia.

At the same time, the parable is a reminder that describes like the visible professing church on earth as it moves toward that consummation. So this is why I think it is important for us to talk about, well, what do we mean by these 10 virgins? What do we mean about the lamps themselves? What is this saying generally about God's church?

And again, him addressing the question of what does it mean for that church to be consummated in his kingdom?

[00:26:18] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. And you know, I, I'm, I'm trying to find the specific passage, but um. We also should not miss the verbal affinity here. Uh, at the end of the parable, when it says truly, I say to you, I do not know you.

We should really read this in light of, um, the, um, the statements. You know, I was hungry and you didn't feed me. I was, you know, and you say, Lord, we did these things. He said, away from me. I never knew you. We really should read this parable. I think in light of that passage and that phrasing, I think that's, that's actually the punchline of this

[00:26:54] Jesse Schwamb: Yes.

[00:26:55] Tony Arsenal: Punchline. That's, that's the point. Parable is that last phrase, and then the, the extra parable, the outside of the parable, um, payoff or sort of like explanation that Christ gives is watch. Therefore, for you neither know the day nor the hour. The point is not, um, you may think you're a Christian. You may think you're, you're on top of things, but you actually, you might be totally wrong.

And so you better get your stuff together. The point is what, what happens? Or the point is the same thing as I think it's the author of Hebrew is like, today is the day of salvation, right? Like, do not wait to turn to Christ. Do not wait. That's right to trust in Jesus. Do not wait to enter the kingdom of heaven until the last minute.

Do not wait because you don't actually know when the end is coming. And I, I read this when I, when it's watch, therefore for, you know, neither the day nor the hour. I read this less in light of, um. Like universal eschatology, uh, every single person that, that Jesus was speaking to in this original audience that he actually delivered this parable to, did not see that, like, did not see the last days.

Right. Whatever the last days looks like. And I mean, like, yes, the last days is from the resurrection to the end of the age. So some of them saw those last days. But what I mean is none of these people saw the return of Christ, like the second return of Christ and that the last judgment. So he would, it would be sort of meaningless to be delivering this parable to those people.

With only whatever the last things are with only the rapture in mind with only Right, exactly. The great judgment. None of that would make any sense. So I read this more in light of you never know when your day and hour is coming. Not, not necessarily like the day, like the day of the Lord, although that's true.

Yes. There will be a generation on earth who the last day, the final judgment is also their last day in terms of their ordinary human life. But I think this is more of a general call to all of us, and especially to those, um, out there who are in the orbits of the church who are exposed to the gospel, um, and have not yet trusted Christ.

[00:29:09] Jesse Schwamb: Yes.

[00:29:09] Tony Arsenal: Um, there is a call to turn to Jesus and to, uh, to, to come into the kingdom of heaven, to be prepared by coming into the kingdom of heaven here. That's, that's the main point of the peril that we have to land on.

[00:29:21] Bridegroom And Virgins

[00:29:21] Jesse Schwamb: I agree with you, and I think all of the imagery here points in that direction. So even starting with this image of these 10 virgins, which of course you've been listening to us talk for long enough, or you've read through the Old Testament, you're gonna quickly, and I think cogently see that this is the Old Testament imagery of Israel as the bride or the covenant community.

It's also of course, like the Greco Roman custom in which the bridesmaids attended the bride and accompanied the wedding procession when the bride groom arrived to claim his bride. So to your point, what I think is really interesting about this is that we're basically saying that this parable is not speaking of like strangers or enemies, but those who have made a profession of faith.

And so even this like idea of the bridegroom who, who's without a question? Christ here, that's a self-identification that's rooted in like John chapter three, where even John the Baptist calls himself merely the friend of the bridegroom and a revelation where you are going already, where the marriage supper of the lamb consummate, consummate redemptive history.

[00:30:19] Lamps And Oil Meaning

[00:30:19] Jesse Schwamb: So once we get through the idea of we have those whom Jesus is speaking about, and even those who he's speaking to as those who have made some kind of profession, religious or otherwise, to me, where this hinges is in this idea of the lamps or these torches or or burning lamps, which I take to be like this outward profession.

And so the question is you have all of them coming with these lamps. Lambs represent this external common to true or false professors alike. But I think to what you are driving at, it's whether within that profession there is a true and actual reliance on Christ himself for righteousness.

[00:30:57] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. And you know, oil, I think the oil is really key here too, right?

Oil in the, uh, in the scriptures, particularly in the Old Testament. Um, but also in some places in the New Testament, oil is associated with the Holy Spirit.

[00:31:11] Jesse Schwamb: Yes,

[00:31:11] Tony Arsenal: exactly right. So if, if we wanna sort of take the symbolism here, take, take the, the situation sort of as a mixture of, of different kinds of symbols.

We have these folks that have all of the outward things necessary to be able to light the lamps. They have the lamps, the wicks are there. Um, they're, they're sort of ready to go. They're, they're ready and waiting for a time. Uh, but what they don't have is they don't have oil, they don't have the Holy Spirit.

So yes, we, we need in some senses about false professors, but I do think it's broader than that.

[00:31:43] Salvation Has A Deadline

[00:31:43] Tony Arsenal: I think this is, um, again, is a generalized parable about. The, the fact that the hour of salvation, the day of salvation, the opportunity to turn to God, the opportunity to come into God's kingdom is not an indefinite opportunity.

It's not going to be out there as a possibility forever. There is a day and an hour and a minute for every single person where that opportunity is no longer available. And of course we're the reformed brotherhood, not the Armenian Brotherhood, right? We're the reformed brotherhood. So yes, God has ordained who will come and who will not.

He's ordained the hour and the minute of those who will, and he's ordained that some will never come. But that all operates on God's God's level in God's knowledge. And that's not something we have access to know down here, right? Deuteronomy 29, 29, the sacred things belong to the Lord, but the things that are revealed belong to us and our children forever.

And one of the things that's revealed is that God calls us to salvation. He calls us to repent and trust in Jesus. And here in this passage, he is cutting us to do that, to not delay doing that.

[00:32:53] Personal Evangelism Story

[00:32:53] Tony Arsenal: I think there are a lot of people, um. I can actually think of a couple really specific examples in when I was in high school.

Um, I was, I, I don't do as much personal evangelism as I I did when I was, uh, when I was in high school and younger. I, I don't know for sure what the reason is. Some of it's probably my own cowardice, but I think probably just that's normal, that as you grow and you kind of settle into different kinds of relationships, you have a different context.

But I remember a, a friend of mine named Dave, I'm not gonna say his last name, I remember his last name, but I'm not gonna say it, but a friend of mine named David, um, who. All of us were coming to faith, like all, all of our friend group were coming to Faith. There was one of my friends, James was sort of like the first guy who, he was raised in a Christian home and he sort of came to faith in a very real faith, real way.

And he sort of brought all of us along with him and sort of one by one we, we sort of like, it was like Domino's falling. And we all came to a genuine, true saving faith kind of all right in a row. And then there was Dave and Dave just didn't like he, he with us. He did all the things we were doing. And I remember having a conversation with him where I was like, what are you waiting for?

Like, what's, what's the hold up here? And I didn't have any, again, I didn't have any framework for like what apologetics were, I wasn't trying to make an argument or any sort of like, um, any sort of like persuasion. It was just a real raw like we are all loving this. We're all, we're all so joyful and happy.

The lives are changing and we. This is real, Dave, what, what are you waiting for? He never had a real answer. He, he didn't ever make an argument against the faith. He was very clear that he believed that God was real. He believed that God existed, that the sort of the facts of the gospel were true. Like he, he, um, to sort of put like theological language on it, um, he had, he had a ticia and a census, right?

Right. He, he acknowledged he knew the true facts of the gospel and he acknowledged the reality that, that those facts were true. He just never actually took the step to trust in Jesus. And I don't know what happened to Dave. Uh, there's another friend of mine named Theo that very similar kind of situation.

I don't know what happened to Dave and Theo. I have no idea whether they eventually came to faith or not, but, but it was like, you guys never know when the day in the hours. That's the kind of person that I think this is pointing to.

[00:35:15] Against Rapture Ready Fear

[00:35:15] Tony Arsenal: Not necessarily the person within the church, um, who has made some sort of credible profession of faith, but thinks, but like, because like they haven't stopped swearing yet, or because they still have lustful thoughts once in a while.

Like I think that's the rapture ready theology is like. You better not hope that like that's the day that a pretty girl walks by and you have a lutful thought. 'cause if Jesus comes back right after that, you're really in trouble. Like those are, those are actually, um, again, this is, this is a caricature of dispensationalism, but it's a caricature that I experienced.

It's, it was people who were being characters of themselves. Right? This idea that, look, you better, you better not sin ever. You better not be asleep. And being asleep means sinning. You better not ever sin. Because if you happen to sin right before the rapture, then Jesus is gonna leave you behind. Right?

You're not gonna fly up in the clouds if you're not perfectly rapture ready. And like, again, not all dispensationalist are like that. I actually think most dispensationalist these days would probably not fit into that category. Right? But when I was coming to faith in the late nineties and early two thousands, that was the real theology being presented.

I don't think that's what this is. This is about a life orientation of preparedness. This is about an entire life. Yes. That is prepared for Christ's second coming or for the hour of our death. And that the only way to be prepared for that is to be happy in Christ, is to be blessed, blessed assurance, like to have your blessed assurance because Jesus is mine.

Oh, what a, you know, oh, what a happy delight like that is. The only way to be ready for death, to be prepared for the end is to turn to Jesus. It's not about whether or not you've turned to Jesus and have become perfectly sinless. None of us are like that, right? It's not about, I just got done writing this series of articles on John Piper's affectional theology, affectional Justification, like it's not about perfectly treasuring Christ.

There are gonna be times where your emotions do not sync up with what you actually believe. It's not about being perfectly obedient or wanting to be perfectly obedient. It's about trusting Jesus. And there's only one day an hour that that opportunity closes, and you never know when that is, when that day an hour is gonna be.

[00:37:26] Wise Versus Foolish

[00:37:26] Jesse Schwamb: We know that to be true in this particular parable because of what's written for us in verse two, how Jesus himself bifurcates and labels these two groups. He says five of them were foolish and five were wise. So Christ himself introduces the critical distinction, not of course, with reference to whatever the external practice is, because both of these groups are carrying lamps, both weight, both know the bridegroom is coming, but with an interior character judgment one is literally foolish, which is the same contrast that Christ employs actually in the parable of the two builders at the conclusion of the Sermon on the Mount, where the wise man hears and does, while the foolish man hears, but does not translate hearing into obedient transformation.

So I'm with you on this. The terms carry, I think, significant Old Testament fruit because in the all the wisdom literature, wisdom is synonymous with the fear of the Lord, that true knowledge of God, right? And that practical orientation, I think as you were saying, of one's entire life toward God. The fool is not like an intellectual simpleton, but it's a world spiritual category.

It's one who lives as though God does not exist or God does not matter, or refuses in the light of incontrovertible evidence to come before God and to submit to him In this way. They are foolish or they are wise. And so again, I like what you're saying. It's not as if like they've just exhibited some kind of quick departure or they've fallen into temptation or sinfulness, but instead, rather, there's something way larger at stake here with respect to a spiritual category.

And I think that's really what Jesus is after, as he's bringing these two groups apart from each other, explaining that essentially that they access the same things. They heard the same stuff, they had the same on the outward, at least the same priorities, but the true internal character, the interior character of who they were, was not compatible.

These are not the the same kind of person.

[00:39:20] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:39:21] All Virgins Fall Asleep

[00:39:21] Tony Arsenal: And this is actually something, um, that I hadn't picked up on before. Right. I think we can get into these ruts when we're reading and understanding, uh, the scripture, especially really familiar passages like this. Um, probably like at some point in the past, someone has taught it to me in this way.

I heard a sermon or I heard it at a youth group in a particular way, and I just never really went back. The, the wise virgins also fall asleep.

[00:39:46] Jesse Schwamb: Exactly.

[00:39:46] Tony Arsenal: Like, like that, that's amazing to me, like Right. I've always heard this passage as though like, falling asleep is the equivalent of spiritual death.

[00:39:54] Jesse Schwamb: Yes.

[00:39:55] Tony Arsenal: But the reality is, in this passage, the difference between the wise and the foolish virgins is not that they, one of them stays awake and one of them falls asleep. One, the, the, the difference between the wise and the foolish is that the ones that are wise are prepared for when the bride root clump comes, even though they fell asleep and, and actually, uh, they're, they're shown to be even more wise because they all fell asleep.

Yes. Right. If they hadn't fallen asleep, then the foolish ones probably would've had time to go get more. But the, the wise virgins in this, uh. And not only were they wise in terms of like they had the stuff they needed, they were ready to go, but so wise that in fact their wisdom overcame sort of this happenstance that they were in a state of, of preparedness being asleep when the comes is a state of Unpreparedness, but they have able to compensate for the ready in every other area.

And I think this also kind of like mitigates away away from the idea of like the, um. The, the emphasis of the parable here, the readiness of the par of the virgins is not based on the wakefulness of the virgins, right? Yes. The virgins are ready because they have the supplies they need. Right. They're not Exactly, they're not exactly, they're not un 'cause they fell asleep.

They're ready because they've, they've prepared by purchasing the supplies they need, by having the supplies they need when the breadroom comes. That's true. Whether they fall asleep or not. So I think like this whole parable needs to sort of like be reoriented in reference to the way a lot of us have, A lot of us have been taught and understood this parable.

I was always taught that the, the foolish virgins were foolish because they fell asleep. Yeah, that's probably partially true in that it's foolish to fall asleep when you're waiting for something, but that can't be the only thing that makes them foolish. 'cause it doesn't make the other virgins foolish.

[00:41:51] Jesse Schwamb: Yes, exactly.

[00:41:52] Oil As Saving Grace

[00:41:52] Jesse Schwamb: And that's why it's so interesting that Jesus basically doubles down or elaborates in verses three and four by saying for when the foolish took their lamps. They took no oil with them. Yeah, but the wises took flasks of oil with their lambs. I think it's actually, as you're, I think leading us into like the theological height of this whole thing, the foolish virgins took their lambs, but no oil.

The wise took lambs and extra oil in vessels. And of course the lambs cannot burn without oil in the same way. I think what we're led to believe here is profession without grace has no sustaining power. So I know like throughout church history, this idea of the oil has been interpreted in various ways, in various forms.

I think there's a lot of unification though on the point that the oil is more or less like a representation of the grace of the Holy Spirit. That like specific indwelling regenerating, sanctifying presence of the spirit imparted in effectual calling and genuine conversion. And that's why I think this has a lot in common with both like the tears and the wheat parable.

But also what you've been saying about the time that is appointed onto a man to die, either for Christ to return or just for you and I to die. And so this understanding, I think is consistent with the Old Testament symbolic use of, like you said before, anointing oil is a sign of the spirit's presence.

Not by might nor by power, but by my spirit. And so I'm seeing here like this oil is, I mean, is it going too far to say almost like a saving grace? It's, it's not common grace, it's not the gifts of the spirit, which the reprobate may possess, but I think we're, we're seeing here like that special sanctifying preserving grace, which is inseparable from true election and calling.

[00:43:29] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, I mean, I think that's spot on. While you were talking, I was actually just looking up, uh, what Calvin has to say on this. I, I think it's funny because I constantly am saying things that I feel like I'm discovering for myself in real time. But if I actually just took the, a little bit of time to read some of our great sources a little more carefully, I would run into them.

This is what he says. He says on, uh, verse five, he says, some interpret this slumbering in a bad sense as if believers along with others abandon themselves sloth. And they were, they were asleep amidst the vanities of the world. This is all together inconsistent with the intention of Christ as structure of the parable.

[00:44:05] Slow Down And Read

[00:44:05] Tony Arsenal: Like I think it's clear now here as we're working through this and this, and this is the main benefit, um, of taking time to just walk through the parables, any, any text of scripture, but the parables is what we're looking at. Taking time to just actually slow down and read them. I didn't intend to get to like a whole discussion about Bible reading plans, but the typical, I'm gonna read the Bible through, uh, the entire Bible in a year that typically has you reading three to five chapters a day is the average.

That's probably too much if you want to be reading for understanding. And there is, there's definitely value. I've, I've commented in the past, there's huge value in reading large tracks of scripture all at the same time. Like if you wanna sit down over 10 chapters of Scripture day and you've got the time and the energy and the discipline to do it, then more power to you.

But I think it's not realistic to think you're gonna sit down and read 10 chapters of scripture and have good comprehension and retention of the 10 chapters that you read. This is a really good example of that. If you sit down and you read three chapters, you're gonna be reading this, you're gonna be reading, uh, another parable.

The parable of the talents you are gonna be reading. You know, the all of it discourse all at the same time, all in one sitting. Um, it's not until just now when I slowed down to really look at these passages, verse by verse individually and take an hour to discuss 13 verses with my brother-in-law in front of a microphone, right?

Then I realized all of the virgins fall asleep. Like that's the kind of stuff that you really only, um, you only overcome. The assumed teaching that you heard when you were in high school, 15, you know, 15, 20 years ago at a summer camp. You really only overcome that when you slow down enough to read things and actually comprehend them.

So that's not much of a commentary on the passage, but it is something that I'm learning as we do these parable studies. Just slow down, slow down and read them, read them multiple times, read it over and over again. Um, it is totally fine. The, this is the last, uh, Bible reading soapbox thing I'll say tonight.

Um, I think like, because. Of the influence of like expository preaching and like wanting to read things in, in context, and all of those things are good. I think there is this tendency to think that if you sit down and just read a very short portion of scripture, that you're kind of automatically taking that out of context.

I don't think that's the case. Like it's totally fine to sit down in the morning and go, you know what? I've got, I've got 10 minutes, I've got five minutes. I've got two minutes before the kids are up. I've got two minutes before the bus stop, you know, before the bus gets here. I'm standing at the bus stop.

I've got 30 seconds before the coffee's done. It's totally fine to open your Bible app. And read two or three verses of scripture, that's a totally fine thing to do. It's totally fine because you've got 10 minutes before the kids got up. Oh, and by the way, you've gotta unload the dishwasher before they do.

Totally fine to sit down and go, I've got time to read 13 verses of scripture today. So that's what I'm gonna get done. Um, and, and then just think about those things like meditate on those scriptures all day. I just think there's a lot of values to that and that's maybe that's my takeaway from this episode.

I know like that's not a takeaway directly related to this passage. That's good. But I think we can oftentimes. Have and understand that isn't right because we've been taught it and we don't ever have the time or space in our life to like realize that what we were taught is maybe exactly right. This is like something so obvious on the surface of the text.

It didn't even take any real thought. It just took slowing down and actually reading the words

[00:47:45] Jesse Schwamb: right. It's also a good reminder, like we said from the beginning, that our goal here shouldn't be to torture every detail, to like press it for some kind of allegorical significance.

[00:47:55] Tony Arsenal: Yes.

[00:47:55] Jesse Schwamb: But to take it on the face and to understand in context what's being said.

And by context I just mean the context of the story. Of the accounts of the drama that's unfolding. And it is pretty remarkable that all 10 virgins sleep, that maybe even as you start with the details might not be your impression that that was gonna be, was gonna be the difference here, but both the wises and the foolish alike fall asleep.

So to me, the parable is not condemning sleep per se, but I think it's the absence of oil which the sleep merely reveals, right? That's the critical detail here. And so Jesus delivers that to us and that's why it's, I think, important to think about these, these variables about what the oil represents and the context in which they're tested with their preparedness.

But it's not because like they had it almost times you get the impression, it's like what we're saying here is the wise had more stamina, that they were the ones that were just willing to tough it out, and they knew the bridegroom was coming. And so as a result of that, they decided that they were going to ensure that they stayed awake, even if they had the drink, a couple of extra cups of coffee, just to make sure that was the case.

But really their sleepiness, which they both have to endure, is the very context in which proves that they do are not prepared by having sufficient oil, not that they're unprepared by having sufficient energy or stamina.

[00:49:18] Prepared Despite Fatigue

[00:49:18] Jesse Schwamb: Well, with all.

[00:49:21] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, that's a good takeaway too, is, is we all, um, we all will succumb to temptation in this life,

[00:49:32] Jesse Schwamb: right?

[00:49:33] Tony Arsenal: Right. Every single one of us. And even if we think of sleeping in this negative sense, which I think we probably need to move away from it, even if we do, I think the point that you're making is really good, for instance, between the foolish and the wises is not their ability to stay awake. So I do think that, I do think there's a slightly negative connotation to drowsy and slept here.

Like I think that, I think it's intended to show some level of fatigue. Fatigue, maybe not like a moral right, maybe not a moral, uh, negativity, but there's a fatigue. There's something that overcomes both wise and foolish virgins in this parable. Fatigue and drowsiness overcomes them and they sleep. And it's because the bridegroom was delayed, right?

We wanna talk about eschatology, right? This is probably also more a commentary on the church as a whole. The church becomes drowsy and sleeps right, and then there's the foolish and the wise. The foolish are the ones who are not prepared even though they are drowsy and sleep. And then there's the wise who are foolish, or the wises who are prepared and are drowsy and sleep.

But E, either way, if we think of drowsy and sleep, even in moral negative terms, right? All of us will succumb to temptation. All of us will succumb to sin in this life. I would even go so far as to say all of us sin in every moment of our life in that we never love God. Truly. Yes. With our full hearts and souls.

You got that right soul the way that we're, we're commanded to. Right. Right. So all of us become drowsy and sleep. The difference is not in those who pull themselves up by their bootstraps and tape their eyelids open so that they don't fall asleep. Right. I don't, I don't know if you ever like had trouble staying awake in school, but I used to, like I used to sit at my desk with my pencil under my chin.

Oh my Lord. So if I started to fall asleep, it would like jab me and I would wake up so I could stay awake in school. Oh. It's not about like gimmicks to stay awake.

[00:51:20] Jesse Schwamb: Right, right.

[00:51:21] Tony Arsenal: It's about the fact that those of us who have trusted Christ. Have received the oil. Yes. So even when we sleep, yes. Even when we are drowsy, even when we are overcome by the fatigue that prevents us from, uh, from resisting sin.

Right. Even when that happens, we still have the oil. We still have the grace of the Holy Spirit. We still have the empowering presence and the, the, the justifying reality of Christ's death For us, in my mind as I read this parable, that really is what it is, right? Get the oil, go get the stinking oil now, because you never know when the day or hour is coming.

Mm-hmm. Whether that's the day or the hour that you fall asleep and you're not prepared, or whether that's the day or the hour that the bridegroom was, even if you're awake. That's the other element of this. Even if the virgins had stayed awake, they didn't have the oil.

[00:52:11] Jesse Schwamb: Yes.

[00:52:12] Tony Arsenal: So it it's not as though, it's not as though had they stayed awake, they would've had time to go get the oil and come back.

They, they wake up right away. Like there's nothing in the parable that's like, oh, it took 'em a little while to get up. So that's why they didn't have time to get the oil. They, they didn't have time to get the oil. 'cause there wasn't time to get the oil

[00:52:31] Jesse Schwamb: right.

[00:52:32] Tony Arsenal: So the only way you're going to be properly prepared when the bridegroom comes is if you already have the oil and you're already ready to go.

Regardless of whether you fall asleep or not.

[00:52:42] Gospel Call Get Oil

[00:52:42] Tony Arsenal: So I, I think, I think we have to kind of close this with like a gospel, a gospel call here. Like we don't do this very often on the show, and I think the vast majority of our show are professed, regenerate Christians. I don't, I don't know anyone who listens to the show that is outwardly not a Christian, but I think this is a time for us to say, listen, if you are hearing the sound of my voice, be diligent to make your calling an election.

Sure. And that both takes the form of what Peter talks about, where he talks about growing in graces and walking in, walking in the qualities of holiness and righteousness that our, our, our in Christ. But it also takes the form of just trusting in Jesus.

[00:53:20] Jesse Schwamb: Right?

[00:53:21] Tony Arsenal: Right. If you are a person who is not confident that you have trusted in Jesus.

Then you, you need to do that. You need to go and do that. And, and if you don't know what that means, look, I'm just some dude on the internet. By the time you hear this, I'm already, I'm already like seven and a half days into the future from when you hear this, like, I'm already gone. The me that's talking to you doesn't even exist anymore.

But the pastor down the road, or your friend who's a Christian who shared this show with you, that person exists right now in your life, right? So go talk to them, find out what the gospel is, and you, you take care of getting that oil and you don't delay,

[00:53:57] Jesse Schwamb: right? Oh, you're right.

[00:53:58] Midnight Cry Urgency

[00:53:58] Jesse Schwamb: All of that sets up what we see in verse six, this idea of the midnight Cry, which is of course where Petro draws the title for its own song.

But this idea that midnight is that darkest hour, it's the hour of deepest sleep and greatest surprise, it really does capture, at least in this parable, the unexpectedness of like that second coming. It's a theme that's central, I think, to a lot of Matthew and this cry is it's sudden, it's arresting, it wakes all of the virgins.

None of them remained asleep after this time. And I think you summarized really well how even like historically reformed expositions understood that midnight cry. It could be. And I say equally as opportunistic with the idea that it's the actual cry of Christ's angels as a return or as I think what you're pressing us with right now, which is important, is it's the voice of God and death.

Since for everybody, each individual death really functions as the personal midnight that ends the time of preparation. And so every man's death to him is the coming of Christ. That's when our state is irrevocably fixed. And so I think it's important for us to understand there's an urgency here. This is an urgency of evangelism and self-examination because the midnight cry may come at any moment.

It could come in youth, the middle age and old age, and health and sickness and wellness. The question is not when it will come, but whether when it does, you will be found with oil in your vessel. And so you're right. Maybe that's the best place for us to end it is to to stop and say, you ought to consider that.

We all ought to consider that. That is the message that's put before us. That's why this thing is so penetrating and solemn, even though it seems a kind of, just a dramatic account of, well, don't get caught being sleepy. That's not the point. It's literally. The, the bridegroom's own delay that sets up all of this and highlights again, what is actually a lacking.

And that is the grace of God, the give the deliverance of, uh, faith to his children that results in that effectual calling. So your rights, and maybe I'll go back to my initial starting point, which was you better check your midnight oil.

[00:56:05] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, yeah.

[00:56:07] Calvin Buy By Faith

[00:56:07] Tony Arsenal: Lemme close with these words from Calvin here on this, uh, this verse he's commenting on, uh.

Around verse nine and he says, um, the word buy does not at all, imply that a price has been given as appears clearly from the passage in idea where the Lord, while he invites us to buy demands, no price, but informs us that he is wine and milk in abundance to be fortuitously bestowed. There is no other way of obtaining it, therefore, but to receive by faith what is offered to us.

So the parable is saying to go and buy the oil, but the only way to buy the oil is to trust in Christ and receive the oil from him. There's no cost, there's no fee. There's no merit that you contribute that gives us this. Um, there's nothing that you do to earn, to, to buy the oil to, to obtain a. Well, Christ bestows it on you by faith.

You simply have to receive it. And point of the parable, and I'll just close with this phrase, the point of the bear parable is that you do not know the day or the, so I think this is a great, uh, um, this is a great parable for us to meditate on, for us to ruminate on. Um, I know I'm gonna think about it, not because I, I fear, I'm fearful for my salvation, but I do think.

Maybe this is something we can chat a little bit about next week, and, and actually maybe this is why these two are juxtaposed.

[00:57:34] Evangelism And Next Steps

[00:57:34] Tony Arsenal: Um, maybe we need to think about a little bit of what this says for the Christian for evangelism, right? Yes. Um, if, if we do not know the day or the hour and, and there is this midnight call coming for people, then maybe we need to tell them, maybe we need to tell them that they do not know when the day or the hour is.

So I think this is great and I'm excited to get into the next parable and I'm excited to keep moving. We've made this pivot into some of the eschatological parables of Christ, which is great. It's a, it's a different, sort of a different register of teaching than we've seen from him in, in the parable series so far, which is exciting.

Uh, so I'm really stoked to keep going.

[00:58:08] Jesse Schwamb: Me too. And again, come hang out with us in the telegram chat in particular, and chat about this with us. I think that that's where so much good conversation happens. It's not, of course, the only place and nor should it be where we process this and live life together, but it is one place where we can do that and get to know other brothers and sisters.

I, I think, Tony, you've often challenged me and our listeners by saying, take this episode and go have your own conversation with your spouses. Yeah. With your parents, with your loved ones. And now more than ever. I think maybe the setup for our next conversation is, how do we understand the urgency of evangelism in light of what we've learned here?

Because this grace in this message is for the Christian. And in that way we find, I think, great assurance in this parable, while at the same time delivering the stack reality of that midnight hour in that cry coming. And again, our states being. Fixed at that moment where there's no more preparation that can take place.

And there is so much right now that's being preached in churches across the world that will tell you that really you don't need to worry about this. That even what Christ is saying here is not entirely accurate. That somehow, even though it may be a pointed once for man to die, that after that point there is some remedial way back into salvation.

And what we find here, what Christ is telling us is that is simply not true. It stands in direct opposition to what our Lord and Savior is teaching us here. And so that makes it, I think, all the more urgent to understand that there is an emergency in our world and that is that there are those perishing without Christ.

And so we ought to make that a priority to deliver to them the gospel that we ourselves have often also received. And the one that God, through his calling and through the affectual work of the Holy Spirit, has made real and effectual to us.

[00:59:55] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:59:56] Wrap Up And Teaser

[00:59:56] Tony Arsenal: Well, Jesse, that's as good a place for us to push pause.

We are done with this parable. We got through it in a week, which is pretty, uh, pretty miraculous. I think it happens. Um, but we're not done with the parables and we're not even really done with this teaching of Christ, because the next verse starts with four. So we know that it's a continuation of, uh, of what, uh, not for the number for FOR.

What a teaser. What a teaser. We know this is a continuation of, of this teaching. So, Jesse, until then, until next time, honor everyone.

[01:00:26] Jesse Schwamb: Love the brotherhood.