Today’s guests on Black Diplomats are Pam Campos-Palma and Melissa Bryant, two women who have complicated relationships with America. Both women are military vets, one the daughter of immigrants, one a fourth-generation service member. Both were taught that the military is a pathway to prosperity. Both experienced the racism and misogyny that are defining parts of living in America, and both persevered. They know what it’s like to love this country, even when it doesn’t love you back.

Host Terrell J. Starr asks Campos-Palma and Bryant what patriotism means to them, and talks about the way that word has been bound up with whiteness in the US. Is it possible for Americans be truly patriotic without also being white?

From our bloated nuclear program to our militarized police departments, the philosophy of safety in the US is not capable of providing protection from the threats of the modern world. Rethinking safety means more than updating weapons systems and technology. Conversations like this one are defining the future, helping America work better for us all.