Sir Malcolm Rifkind, interviewed at the Aspen Ministers Forum in Kansas City, sees the challenges to liberal values as tied to, but separate from, the challenges to democracy. He explains how many places where democracy is said to be in crisis today are actually experiencing a shift away from liberal ideas rather than from democracy itself. In a conversation that touches upon Brexit, the Cold War, and China’s rise, Sir Malcolm frames the challenge to liberal democracy today as a battle between “rule of law” and “rule by law.”