Second Breakfast with Cam & Maggie

Discussion of The Two Towers, Book Four, Chapter Eight

Join Cam and Maggie for a chapter full of character-driven horror and a role-reversal villain introduction like we've never seen. Maggie reaches a conclusion about free will that somewhat bridges the gap between her original position and Cam's. Sméagol breaks through the Ring's death grip on him and Gollum long enough for us to wonder which one of them is really in charge, and if we could ever really know for sure. Cam attempts to define Frodo's heroism as it compares (unfavorably) to past Middle-earth heroes, and we parse the Witch King's introduction in those terms. This is another week full of twisted echoes / perversions of The Hobbit, and we think the Witch King is Frodo's Azog. Don't worry, it makes sense once we develop the idea.

In our Second Breakfast, we return to the concept of "fantasy horror" that we stumbled upon during last week's discussion of Stephen King. Cam and Maggie work together to define the sub-genre and provide some examples (shout out to Brother Cinnamon) and then we explore the differences between horror and fantasy horror. This gets pretty dumb and silly, with Cam at one point earnestly presenting the argument "What if dragon bad?" Maggie steps in with a reasonable point about aesthetics, and then Cam mucks it all up again with a question about happy endings and speculative fiction that leads us to our greatest Game of Thrones hot take of all time.

Lots of love, see you next week.

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Discussion of The Two Towers, Book Four, Chapter Seven

Join Cam and Maggie for a spooky, echo-laden chapter of Daddy Tolkien's sci-fi epic, Fantastic Beasts and In the Darkness Bind Them. We're in a good mood this week, it's a fun episode. Faramir leaves and provokes a new evolution in Cam's "living ghost" theory. Maggie gets to talk about Gothic architecture and gargoyles and freaky grinning stone heads because Tolkien is officially leaning in with the horror imagery. We also work through a dozen beautiful, weaponized callbacks to The Hobbit and the happier days of Fellowship that Tolkien buries in this pages, and chart the reflections / realizations that they provoke in the reader. Lots of masterful storytelling on deck this week, and more burping than usual. Maggie has a beer and head butts her microphone.

In our Second Breakfast, Maggie leads us through the introduction to Stephen King's short story collection Night Shift, which is full of Tolkien references. Stevey makes some fun claims about Tolkien's tendency to drift into horror and his work's relationship to Middle-earth. Dracula gets dragged into the mix too, and we try to think of a successful work of fantasy horror that isn't LOTR. Also featured: a conversation about influential speculative fiction, Tolkien's influence on genres outside of fantasy, and George R.R. Martin's comments on Tolkien imitators: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5AofPBrletA&pp=sAQA

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Discussion of The Two Towers, Book Four, Chapter Six

Join Cam and Maggie for Frodo's Big Day Out. This is a very busy chapter for our favorite Ring-bearer – he commits to Gollum, (possibly) changes his tune on faith, and becomes an active part of the fellowship for the first time. Cam's theory about ghosts / "middlemen of the twilight" evolves as well, and Faramir evolves to be more like both versions of Gandalf. Maggie and Cam debate Frodo's pledge of loyalty to Gollum: is it a single moment of mercy, or a shift in his priorities? Meanwhile, magic grows thick as shadows of elves appear and the Ring receives multiple foreboding new titles.

In our Second Breakfast, we take another look at the concept of adaptation, and the ill-fated musical version of Lord of the Rings. Could the story work as a single stage show? Would it be satisfying as a three-part epic? Don't worry, we do a post-mortem of Harry Potter and the Cursed Child and then get all excited about Macbeth. The witches, the blood, the plotting, the character work – oh my!

* Check out our two-part guest appearance on That's What I'm Tolkien About: https://tolkienaboutpod.podbean.com/ *

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Discussion of The Two Towers, Book Four, Chapter Five

* Video of Andy Serkis performing his new versions of the LOTR audiobooks (coming out this September): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sez-kWSsHr0 *

Join Cam and Maggie for a provocative, character-focused chapter of The Two Towers. The headline of these pages has to be the innumerable comparisons between Faramir and Gandalf the White, being new and improved evolutions (or ghosts!) of two deceased members from the original fellowship, Boromir and Gandalf the Grey. We break down the similarities between these characters, from their introductions to the way they prove themselves to our existing heroes. Ghosts and claims about magic and structural echoes abound – it's nice when the nerdier stuff pays off. Gandalf the Grey is invoked / conjured back into the story at every turn, and we have fun theorizing about his weather powers and heavenly connections. We also analyze the broken horn of Gondor, Tolkien's careful balancing act to keep Sam from outshining Frodo, and Frodo's continuing, worrying adventures through faith, fate, and predestination. Cam forces a Macbeth comparison too, and Maggie drops an Inception reference like it's 2010 and she just discovered "sophisticated" art.

In our Second Breakfast, we reflect on our recent visit to Beyond Van Gogh in Austin, Texas (https://vangoghaustin.com/) We describe the unlikely pitch of the exhibit – an all-digital presentation of Van Gogh's work without any of the actual paintings – and then spend a lot of time marveling at its revolutionary presentation of even Van Gogh's most well-known work. This could be something new, a universal and startlingly accessible way for modern audiences to connect with works from an otherwise distant and difficult time. Comparing this experience to a traditional museum visit is like comparing a traditional movie theater to your first brush with IMAX technology. Extremely exciting stuff, with a surprising relevance to our discussion of LOTR and audiobooks. Go figure.

* Check out our two-part guest appearance on That's What I'm Tolkien About: https://tolkienaboutpod.podbean.com/ *

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Discussion of The Two Towers, Book Four, Chapter Four

Join Cam and Maggie for a fascinating, moody slice of Tolkien. Eyes are watching everyone in this chapter – Sam is watching Frodo, Frodo is watching the Eye of Sauron, Sam is side-eyeing Gollum, Gollum is watching the Ring, the Black Riders are watching everyone from the sky, the God of Middle-earth is looking down on everyone – it's a busy, paranoid dynamic. Amid the chaos, Cam thinks he might have spotted the ghost of Gandalf the Grey (a few times!). Sam and Gollum have an argument in third person that reveals a subtle bias in the narrator. Frodo throws caution to the wind and doubles down on his worrying new beliefs about fate. Then the oliphants show up and blow the whole chapter apart, and we kinda think Sam summoned them with that little song in the last chapter, which maybe was a spell or another echo of Gandalf the Grey? Jump in and read the tea leaves with us, this was a fun one!

In our Second Breakfast, we read through some feedback about last week's episode and continue our conversation about honest art and fate, but this time we throw faith into the mix too. There's some discussion about religious horror, 1984, and the work of Christopher Hitchens, with touchstone artistic examples like Penny Dreadful and Deadwood thrown in for good measure.

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Discussion of The Two Towers, Book Four, Chapter Three

Join Cam and Maggie for a strange little detour through Frodo's mind. This chapter pauses the narrative as our sterling (and possibly insane) leader mulls over the choice to trust Gollum and take his alternative route into Mordor (which we have dubbed Shelob Boulevard). There is much discussion of "fate" in these pages, and we come out on very different sides of the debate. Frodo's signature line here is "What good lay in choice?" and that question sparks a spirited conversation about free will and Frodo's relationship with choice / fate. We also discuss Sam's weird little Winnie-the-Pooh song about elephants and his unsinkable positivity, as well as the possibility that Sauron is allowing Frodo / Sam / Gollum to march into Mordor and just deliver him the Ring before killing them.

In our Second Breakfast, we consider whether or not any work of art can be called "honest". We examine concepts like performativity, the ultimately unknowable power of mediation possessed by artists, and why some art feels authentic even if it's impossible or fantastical. Cam compares the "honesty" of confessional works like A Monster Calls and Ricky Gervais' After Life, which leads us into a larger discussion about authenticity in art, universal human truths, separating the art from the artist, and the possibility that non-fiction simply does not exist.

* Our first guest appearance on That's What I'm Tolkien About was released this week, check it out here: https://feed.podbean.com/tolkienaboutpod/feed.xml *

Instagram: @secondbreakfastpod

Feedback & Theories: [email protected]

Illustrated YouTube clips channel: https://bit.ly/2OT6RP3

*We are the guests on this week's That's What I'm Tolkien About with Mary Clay Watt! Check out her show – it's wonderful and we had a great time! Our episode comes out Tuesday, here's the link: https://feed.podbean.com/tolkienaboutpod/feed.xml*

When Tolkien is on his game, he's simply the best. This chapter is pitch perfect LOTR, an efficient and provocative exploration of Gollum and Sauron that gives us a whole lot to talk about. Our long-standing theories about seen/unseen and the connection between fire/enlightenment both crop up in Gollum's characterization. Sauron inherits qualities from the Black Riders and Smaug and then evolves into his own unique sort of cancerous evil. Scenes from Fellowship and The Hobbit are recreated in heartbreaking echoes. There's a wonderful undercurrent of religious imagery throughout the chapter too, full of subversive insights into prayer and leadership and the difference between faith and trust that is earned over time and validated by good works. The mists come back, Dante comes back, Les Mis and Harry Potter and A Christmas Carol drop in for visits. Cam brings in some Descartes too and argues that Gollum is the "first mover" of Middle-earth as we try to parse out the hierarchy of this small, uneasy new fellowship.

In our Second Breakfast, inspired by our recent move, we discuss the absence of home and its effect on the surviving fellowship, specifically focusing on Frodo. We chart the hobbit's long road so far, saying goodbye to great homes and lesser homes alike while constantly losing companions. Mentors, friends, allies, shelter – the ideas themselves become unmoored at some point and Frodo very easily could have become Gollum. We discuss Frodo and Sam's unique perspective on death and the hopeless nobility of their quest, before zooming out to consider LOTR as a story of struggle and attempting to identify the most effective tools Tolkien uses to hype up his villains while forever kneecapping his heroes.

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Discussion of The Two Towers, Book Four, Chapter One

Join Maggie and Cam for their first Frodo + Sam chapter in eleven weeks! Tolkien takes us back in time to find out what our hobbits have been up to – lots of wandering and backtracking, apparently. Discussions of moral ambiguity abound in a grey landscape filled with grey magical objects, pale grey light, fishy choices, and our favorite fish-loving friend, Gollum. We question the trustworthiness of Gollum/Sméagol, along with the agency of our hobbit heroes themselves. If Two Towers is a book about the villains, who is our villain for Book 4? Cam brings in some fun spider and vampire comparisons, and Maggie asks if Tolkien's infamous landscape is to blame. Game of Thrones makes an appearance here (you know, for a change), as we break down the structure of Two Towers and the splitting up of characters and plotlines. We also spend a weirdly large amount of time discussing rope. What is this, a game of Clue?

For our Second Breakfast, enjoy tucking into a conversation about binging – no, not on bacon and eggs, we mean with stories. Does binging a book, comic series, show, or movie emphasize or hide the flaws of a work of art? How does the speed with which you consume a story change the way you see it? Should we have perhaps binged LOTR instead of critically reading it at a glacial pace? Maybe that would have helped us deal with Tom F@%#ing Bombadil. We bring in Donny Cates's Venom series, as well as Iain Reid's I'm Thinking of Ending Things for comparison.

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Discussion of The Two Towers, Book Three, Chapter Eleven

Join Cam and Maggie for – BREAKING NEWS: New Lord of the Rings movie just announced! We start the episode by reacting to the exciting announcement of new anime prequel The War of the Rohirrim. Then we move into discussing this wonderful chapter, the last part of the first half of Two Towers [yes that was a lot of math for me]. Crystal balls are the object of fascination here, as Tolkien pivots hard back to magical objects being the roots of all evil and the main engines propelling the story forwards. This time, it's Pippin forming an unhealthy attachment to the magical red flag, and depending on who you ask, he's either falling victim to the will of the crystal ball itself [Maggie] or being possessed by Saruman [Cam]. Gandalf the Grey seems to return, later on, and The Black Riders are back too – it's like a family reunion. We bask in the gothic aesthetic of the Black Riders and take a moment to side-eye Gandalf the White waxing poetic about magical objects when he sort of is one himself now. At one point, Cam uses the term "reanimated corpse" and we finish by considering this chapter as a concentrated version of Tolkien's Middle-earth story. Picture an accordion all scrunched up, it's like that with hobbits.

In our Second Breakfast, we reflect on our recent viewing of 2001: A Space Odyssey, and our brains' inability to consume any art now without connecting it back to LOTR. It's exhausting, but you seem to enjoy it. One is sci-fi and the other is fantasy, but they're kinda exactly the same story written around the same time? Cam's got examples, and Maggie jumps to / spoils his grand finale about thirty seconds into the conversation. Here, I'll just do it here, why not? What's the point, you know, like, of anything? HAL is the Ring.

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Check out our illustrated YouTube clips page: https://bit.ly/2OT6RP3

Discussion of The Two Towers, Book Three, Chapter Ten

Join Cam and Maggie for a deep dive into this fantastic chapter. Tolkien is back on his game here, giving us huge character moments, plenty of action, and a fascinating villain-led look at the theology / philosophy of Middle-earth. Gandalf the White asserts his absolute dominance over the existing magical hierarchy and shames Saruman into irrelevance. The conflict between fire and water based magic systems reaches a fever pitch. Dialogue takes center stage and Tolkien carefully describes the tone of almost everything Gandalf the White and Saruman say to each other. This scene runs like the climax of a great play, and that is exactly the sandbox we like playing in! Cam also leads us through the many declarations about free will included in this chapter, and we have a great conversation about the power struggle between Good and Evil (and their respective puppets) in this story. Maggie changes her stance on the humanity of Gandalf the White.

In our Second Breakfast, we briefly revisit our conversation from last week about the death of the artist, to address some curve balls presented by various mediums. These include: studio interference on shows and movies, surprise cancellations of comic books, and corporate market testing. Then we jump to some new revelations Cam has found in his scouring of Christopher Tolkien's The History of Middle-earth. We have some new insights about the power of Gandalf the Grey compared to the Black Riders, Treebeard's sinister origin story, and the current whereabouts of Bill the Pony!

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Send us your feedback and theories: [email protected]

Check out our illustrated YouTube clips page: https://bit.ly/2OT6RP3