Second Breakfast with Cam & Maggie

Discussion of The Two Towers, Book Three, Chapter Nine

Join Cam and Maggie for the show's One Year Anniversary. Tolkien got us a very special present (another mediocre chapter) but as always, we make the best of it. If the last chapter was a strange, depersonalized "history" of the events it described, then this chapter is a character-focused oral history of the assault on Isengard. Pippin dominates the conversation (oh how things have changed since Rivendell) but the real star of this chapter is the many echoes it teases. Deceased characters and classic scenes are conjured in the reader's mind as what remains of the Fellowship gathers to plan their next move. The Hall of Fire returns, Boromir is briefly resurrected, Saruman reverts to his original characterization, and even Gandalf the Grey seems to make an appearance. There are also a number of new magical objects that build on the strange mist introduced in the last chapter to form a water-based magic system that we contrast with Saruman's "devilry". The group discusses the magical creatures of Middle-earth and Aragorn sorts them into a surprising hierarchy. There's also a strange undercurrent of hypnotic or hallucinogenic magic that we investigate, taking particular interest in the Ent's mysterious drafts and the Shire pipeweed that the Fellowship unexpectedly finds within Isengard. Cam has a brutally dark theory about this last magical device that we're both glad not to see actually happen.

In our Second Breakfast, we discuss the death of the artist and its effect on their art – and more specifically, how their art is viewed and experienced. Examples include: Kentaro Miura's Berserk, Douglas Adams' Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, Michelle McNamara's I'll Be Gone in the Dark, Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time series, all three Nirvana albums, the comedy of Patrice O'Neal, and the comparative careers / receptions of Paul McCartney and John Lennon. We consider the effect of intentional, creator-designed endings on a work's legacy, the vastly different experience of starting a series after the creator has died, the inflationary effect of grief upon critical reception, and the implication that works only become "classics" after the artist dies. In a challenging tangent to our main discussion, we also consider works of art that were designed to be an artist's final statement and directly deal with their impending death. Examples include David Bowie's Blackstar and Christopher Hitchens' Mortality. At the end, the discussion ties back to Tolkien and we come to a difficult conclusion about the forthcoming version of Lord of the Rings featuring Tolkien's private illustrations.

Thank you for the support this past year. It has meant the world to us, and we have so much more planned for this show going forward. Lots of love, and we'll see you next week!

Follow us on Instagram: @secondbreakfastpod

Send us your feedback and theories: [email protected]

Check out our illustrated YouTube clips page: https://bit.ly/2OT6RP3

Discussion of The Two Towers, Book Three, Chapter Eight

Join Cam and Maggie for a terribly strange chapter of Lord of the Rings. Tolkien's style changes wildly here, it's like he wrote this chapter in Old English. There's an interesting meditation on history and legacy and myth beneath all of the stilted, depersonalized prose – but it takes a little digging to find it. We've got examples and theories out the wazoo (I just wanted to see how that felt to type, can't believe I spelled 'wazoo' correctly on the first try) Gandalf the White suddenly has a lot more supernatural insight, along with a new interest in moral teaching – we take the opportunity to make fun of Aslan here, in addition to considering Gandalf's status as an immortal mentor. There's a new sentient weapon in Middle-earth, and this time it's a corrupted part of nature (the greatest Tolkien sin!) We also dig into the ethical significance of the dead orcs being refused burial after the Battle of Helm's Deep, and Cam thinks Merry & Pippin might be possessed by Sauron / Satan.

In our Second Breakfast, we look more closely at the stunning lack of good villains in LOTR by examining Grand Admiral Thrawn of Star Wars fame. Cam introduces the character and breaks down the difference between active and passive antagonists, before arguing that Thrawn could be considered both, simultaneously. He's an incredibly compelling character, who puts Sauron and Saruman to shame. We end the episode by suggesting a few ways that Tolkien's villains could have been more developed / involved in the story. Oh there's a fun little idea about Gandalf in the afterlife, it gets me all tingly.

Follow us on Instagram: @secondbreakfastpod

Send us your feedback and theories: [email protected]

Check out our illustrated YouTube clips page: https://bit.ly/2OT6RP3

Discussion of The Two Towers, Book Three, Chapter Seven

Join Cam and Maggie for one of Tolkien's greatest battles. There's action and fire and terror in these pages, but it's striking how much Tolkien keeps the emphasis on his characters. He is absolutely in his groove here – there's so much to talk about. There are some fascinating echoes back to dead and absent characters [Boromir, Gollum, the Black Riders, Gandalf the Grey] and a sense of weaponized juxtaposition that sees Tolkien making grand points about hopelessness and war through his architecture descriptions. Some of the echoes are broken, or twisted, such that the reader notices the stark differences between two characters, or the concerning evolution of an old friend [Cam still doesn't think Gandalf the White is really Gandalf!] We also consider Théoden's trustworthiness, and the nobility of his last charge against the orcs. Was he preparing for a heroic death, or did the wizard already have his finger on the scales?

In our Second Breakfast, we discuss the evolution of short films into feature-length movies, and wonder what scene from LOTR would be the most provocative, exciting, and representative short film. Of course, this discussion lets us talk about horror movies, including: Saw and Sinister. Oh and earlier we lovingly point out all of the moments and turns of phrase within Helm's Deep that show up later in Game of Thrones.

Follow us on Instagram: @secondbreakfastpod

Send us your feedback and theories: [email protected]

Check out our illustrated YouTube clips page: https://bit.ly/2OT6RP3

Discussion of The Two Towers, Book Three, Chapter Six

Join Cam and Maggie for a spirited discussion of Théoden and Wormtongue! The Meat and Potatoes Detective Agency (Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli) invade the house of the Rohan in this gorgeous, provocative new chapter. But then Gandalf sort of ruins things and resolves all of the new characters' storylines in like a paragraph each. We consider Gandalf the White's status as a Middle-earth cheat code, and wonder what a slow-burn version of this sequence could have looked like. Maggie notices Frodo in absentia and walks us through some of the many quiet nods back to his quest in this chapter. Cam argues that Théoden's new brand of isolationism reveals something damning about everyone else's suspicious selfishness (hint: everything is about aesthetics!)

In our Second Breakfast, Cam digs deep into sequels. We've all heard of the sophomore slump, but what is it that can elevate a follow-up project beyond the original work? He breaks successful sequels into three categories, cleverly brands this phenomenon "the sophomore bump," and makes a sweeping claim about The Lord of the Rings! Maggie brings things back to horror and we have a fun old time chatting about franchises and studio meddling and artistic freedom.

Follow us on Instagram: @secondbreakfastpod

Send us your feedback and theories: [email protected]

Check out our illustrated YouTube clips page: https://bit.ly/2OT6RP3

Discussion of The Two Towers, Book Three, Chapter Five

Join Cam and Maggie for – shut up, GANDALF IS BACK! Or is he? Cam doesn't think the Old Man / Gandalf the White is really the wizard we once knew and lovingly resented. He works through his whole strange theory, which involves lots of Dante. Maggie argues that Gandalf was able to return because he never really died. It's a fun episode with lots of disagreement and even more dumb jokes! Yay, it's almost one year into this and we're finally being our real selves. We also discuss the evolution of Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli's new fellowship and the implications of Tolkien's ever-changing classification of them as "pursuers," "hunters," or "companions". There's also even more delicious villain hype, because Two Towers is all about the bad guys – and Tolkien throws us a curveball regarding Saruman. Hype! Intrigue!

In our Second Breakfast, we continue our long journey through Christopher Tolkien's History of Lord of the Rings. This time, we consider a fascinating early outline of Gandalf's death where he wasn't killed by the Balrog! Ooh, who was it then? You'll have to listen, dork. It's fascinating, and we can only make sense of it by doing a deep dive on Saw III, because we should have just been a horror podcast, I guess. But it's too late now!

Follow us on Instagram: @secondbreakfastpod

Send us your feedback and theories: [email protected]

Check out our illustrated YouTube clips page: https://bit.ly/2OT6RP3

Discussion of The Two Towers, Book Three, Chapter Four

Join Cam and Maggie in their quest to defeat Tom Bombadil 2.0! Treebeard sings and wanders and babbles and emotionally detaches and brings the entire story to a screeching, pine-scented halt in this endless, miserable, dry chapter – but we have some fun with it. Pippin seems to be the new Chosen One in Tolkien's Middle-earth, and we wonder what this means for his mortality (hi Gandalf). We also discuss the legend of the Entwives as an echo of Goldberry, and Maggie finds a possible narrative explanation for the strange absence of women in this world. Cam suggests that Treebeard is an evolution of the idea of "sentient weapons" like Smaug and the One Ring. We also mock the chapter to keep ourselves entertained, with specific examples and quotes!

In our Second Breakfast, we consider continuations of stories that aren't written by the original author. This spirals into a discussion about corporate franchising, fan fiction, timeline independence, and what makes a sequel feel "legitimate". Examples include Watchmen, Doomsday Clock, LOTR (duh), Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, Artemis Fowl, Harry Potter and the Cursed Child (oh boy), and Game of Thrones. We love you, George! Take all the time you need on Winds.

Follow us on Instagram: @secondbreakfastpod

Send us your feedback and theories: [email protected]

Check out our illustrated YouTube clips page: https://bit.ly/2OT6RP3

Discussion of The Two Towers, Book Three, Chapter Three

Join Cam and Maggie for a chapter that celebrates all things Pippin. I guess he's our main character now, and Tolkien takes great pains to differentiate him from Frodo or Bilbo. The stakes are higher than ever – our new heroes don't have a wizard's protection or any survival skills. Merry and Pippin are launched into a great adventure, without weapons or friends or anything but some lembas bread. The orcs are developed into real characters and genuine villains. We learn about the infighting and resentment that plagues Middle-earth's "evil" characters, and Cam gets to talk about Douglas Adams and his Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. Later on, we revisit our discussions about fate and the original sin of Tolkien's world (spoiler: it's the fact that people keep torturing Gollum). And then, in the grand finale of our year-long investigation, we finally, definitively identify Tolkien's narrator. It's not who you expect it is.

In our Second Breakfast, Maggie leads us back into the world of horror with a breakdown of Insidious and Sinister. The films are explored for their surprising structural echoes of LOTR and Cam slips in a claim that this week's chapter was horror. Oh no, I forgot, he also makes a Winnie-the-Pooh reference early in the episode. It's a full-blown regression. We end the episode with a redemption arc for Zack Snyder and his wonderful, loyal adaptation of Watchmen.

Follow us on Instagram: @secondbreakfastpod

Send us your feedback and theories: [email protected]

Check out our illustrated YouTube clips page: https://bit.ly/2OT6RP3

Discussion of The Two Towers, Book Three, Chapter Two

Join Cam and Maggie for our first big adventure with the new company – Aragorn, Gimli, and Legolas! Their gruff, decidedly un-magical perspective gives us a wonderfully rugged new look at Middle-earth. Mud, blood, and dead orcs abound, but Gandalf still manages to echo through the chapter. Hints of eagles, strange narrative jumps, and the appearance a mysterious Old Man lead us to wonder about Gandalf's continued involvement – and influence – within this story. Cam develops a theory about Two Towers being the villain showcase of The Lord of the Rings and Maggie leads us through a compare / contrast segment making sense of Gandalf and Saruman. The White Wizard is everywhere in these pages, as a passive threat and possibly another active theological meddler. Legolas even discusses him as being "a will" acting upon Middle-earth, so Cam gets all excited about that. We also break down some fresh political critique in the company's dealings with the Riders of Rohan and reflect on the progressive streak we keep finding in Tolkien's work.

In our Second Breakfast, we try to figure just why we hated Zack Snyder's Justice League so much. On paper, it is an extended cut of a genre epic that follows a fellowship driven by magical objects and threatened by a criminally underdeveloped villain – we should love it! We move past our subjective opinions of the film to have a conversation about genre adaptations, the innumerable pressures placed on fandom movies, and the crushing difficulty of making movies like this comprehensible to viewers who aren't familiar with the source material. Hey, we even end up bashing Harry Potter, Game of Thrones, and all the Marvel movies. Everyone except Peter Jackson, blessed be his name.

Follow us on Instagram: @secondbreakfastpod

Send us your feedback and theories: [email protected]

Check out our illustrated YouTube clips page: https://bit.ly/2OT6RP3

Discussion of The Two Towers, Book Three, Chapter One

Join Cam and Maggie for the curious beginning to Two Towers. This is the shortest LOTR chapter yet, and the first one to focus in on just a few members of the fellowship. (All Hail the Three Hunters: Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli!) The new narrative structure expands each of these characters, especially Aragorn, who starts to feel like a hybrid of the curious Bilbo we knew in The Hobbit and Geralt from The Witcher. We discuss Boromir's death and debate the respectability of his send-off. Is his waterfall funeral practical or indulgent? Why does so much of the action in this chapter occur off-page? We also work through the latest muddy navigation of free will in Middle-earth and try to figure out if Aragorn has Gandalf's blessing in his decision to rescue Merry and Pippin (instead of Frodo and Sam!)

In our Second Breakfast, we turn once again to Christopher Tolkien's The History of The Lord of the Rings, this time for some extremely helpful, explicit rules about the magic of the Ring and exactly what powers it would grant to Sauron. Maggie then leads us into a discussion about fantasy adaptations where we consider the lineage, echoes, and diversions between the Peter Jackson LOTR movies and the HBO Game of Thrones show. Specifically, we consider the first season of GOT and Fellowship to better understand each story's handling of death, mentors, and divergent storylines.

Follow us on Instagram: @secondbreakfastpod

Send us your feedback and theories: [email protected]

Check out our illustrated YouTube clips page: https://bit.ly/2OT6RP3

Discussion of The Lord of the Rings, The Fellowship of the Ring [Extended Edition] in Glorious 4K!

Join Cam and Maggie in their (our?) continued adoration of Peter Jackson. We watched the second half of the extended Fellowship movie, starting at about 1:24:00 when the gang gets to Rivendell. This film takes every possible opportunity to expand character relationships – and sometimes it even contradicts Tolkien's version of the story. Galadriel's gifts are totally different! Gollum's introduction happens in Moria! Boromir is a much better friend and simultaneously manages to have more red flags than Sauron! The translations and interpretations of the screenwriters are endlessly provocative, though we only talk long enough to convince Cam that the movie is better than the book (and that they are both works of horror!) We also explore the relationship between magic and telepathy and then come to a strange realization about all the wizards rattling around in Frodo's head.

In our Second Breakfast, we discuss some fascinating lore tidbits about Sauron from Christopher Tolkien's The History of The Lord of the Rings. Spoiler Alert: there are Voldemort comparisons made, but then Maggie goes on an entertaining tangent about the history of pirates and Vikings and we wonder if Aragorn really is a scruffy bad boy after all. The episode gets rather silly towards the end – join us!

Follow us on Instagram: @secondbreakfastpod

Send us your feedback and theories: [email protected]

Check out our illustrated YouTube clips page: https://bit.ly/2OT6RP3