Join us for an Exclusive Interview at the Baha'i World Centre as we take a deep dive into the faiths of our neighbors to find out what they actually believe.

00:00 Excerpt

01:06 Brief History of the Bahá'í faith

10:45 Prayer/Invocation to begin the conversation

14:55 Mysticism and the Bahá'í faith

30:44 Becoming God

40:33 On the Nature of God

49:08 Bahá'í, a Perfect Faith?

51:40 Emanation, Manifestation and Revelation

1:16:55 Experientiality

1:24:42 Contradictions between Religions

1:38:54 Religion of Today, Religion of the Future

1:49:16 Is the Bahá'í faith too Idealistic?

1:57:58 Heaven and Hell

2:03:18 Science and Religion

2:10:32 Divinity and Humor

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Thank you to our beloved Patrons: Wael, jXaviErre, Simona, Francis, Etty, Stephen, Arash, William, Michael, Matija, Timony, Vilijami, Stoney, El techo, Stephen, Ross, Ahmed, Alexander, Diceman, Hannah, Julian, Leo, Sim, Sultan, John, Joshua, Igor, Chezi, Jorge, Andrew, Alexandra, Füsun, Lucas, Andrew, Stian, Ivana, Aédàn, Darjeeling, Astarte, Declan, Gregory, Alex, Charlie, Anonymous, Joshua, Arin, Sage, Marcel, Ahawk, Yehuda, Kevin, Evan, Shahin, Al Alami, Dale, Ethan, Gerr, Effy, Noam, Ron, Shtus, Mendel, Jared, Tim, Mystic Experiment, MM, Lenny, Justin, Joshua, Jorge, Wayne, Jason, Caroline, Yaakov, Daniel, Wodenborn, Steve, Collin, Justin, Mariana, Vic, Shaw, Carlos, Nico, Isaac, Frederick, David, Ben, Rodney, Charley, Jonathan, Chelsea, Curly Joe, Adam and Andre.

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Can religion still provide us with real connection, salvation and redemption in our modern alienated world?

00:00 An Idea

10:21 Paradigm Shift

19:30 The Kabbalists

30:29 Our Role

34:57 About Seekers

40:00 Q&A

47:03 Q#2

52:39 Q#3

#mysticism #religion #unity

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Thank you to our beloved Patrons: Simona, Francis, Etty, Stephen, Arash, William, Michael, Matija, Timony, Vilijami, Stoney, El techo, Stephen, Ross, Ahmed, Alexander, Diceman, Hannah, Julian, Leo, Sim, Sultan, John, Joshua, Igor, Chezi, Jorge, Andrew, Alexandra, Füsun, Lucas, Andrew, Stian, Ivana, Aédàn, Darjeeling, Astarte, Declan, Gregory, Alex, Charlie, Anonymous, Joshua, Arin, Sage, Marcel, Ahawk, Yehuda, Kevin, Evan, Shahin, Al Alami, Dale, Ethan, Gerr, Effy, Noam, Ron, Shtus, Mendel, Jared, Tim, Mystic Experiment, MM, Lenny, Justin, Joshua, Jorge, Wayne, Jason, Caroline, Yaakov, Daniel, Wodenborn, Steve, Collin, Justin, Mariana, Vic, Shaw, Carlos, Nico, Isaac, Frederick, David, Ben, Rodney, Charley, Jonathan, Chelsea, Curly Joe, Adam and Andre.

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The Perennial Philosophy, or Perennialism for short, claims that the depth traditions found within the major world religions all converge upon the same metaphysical vision - namely, the identification of our deepest selves with a divine, transcendental ground. Popularized by Aldous Huxley in his 1945 The Perennial Philosophy it has a natural appeal to many thinking, spiritually inclined individuals - including those who have never explicitly heard of it. - Jon

In this debate Jonathan will critique the perennial philosophy; Zevi will defend it.

Jonathan Weidenbaum is a professor of philosophy and world religions at Berkeley College.

Zevi Slavin is a seeker, a teacher, and creator of Seekers of Unity.

See Jonathan’s work here:

https://berkeleycollege.academia.edu/JonathanWeidenbaum

https://www.semanticscholar.org/author/Jonathan-Weidenbaum/103460987

Particularly:

A Little Disillusionment is a Good Thing: Perennialism, Process Theology, and Religious Diversity

The Metaphysics of Alterity and Unity: Levinas and Perennialism

Why I am Not a Pantheist (Nor a Panentheist) Metaphysics, Totalization, and the Cosmos

With Open Doors and Windows, Doing theology in the spirit of William James

Upcoming with Nicholas Colemean: The Bell and the Hammer: for and against a perennialist philosophy (seeking a publisher, if you know any…)

00:00 Introduction: Omar Lughod

00:54 Introducing Perennialism: Jonathan

06:09 Critiquing Perennialism: Jonathan

31:50 Defending Perennialism: Zevi

51:50 Response: Jonathan

56:38 Response: Zevi

Q&A Session

1:01:27 What about religions that disagree?

1:04:12 From debate to discussion

1:07:53 What would it take to change your mind?

1:13:11 Is this all just ideas to you?

1:16:53 Baruch Thaler: What’s the bottom line?

1:18:46 What’s with all this New Age-ism?

1:33:03 Closing words

“Neither the mystic nor the philosopher can remain content with an irreducible heterogeneity of mystical experience, the mystic because the ultimate character of the experience implies a universal claim, the philosopher because a diversity of ultimate claims is a challenge not a resting-place. Thus, it is not an uneducated essentialist desire, but religious integrity or philosophical urgency that leads those who no longer find an exclusive claim by any single tradition convincing to seek an underlying unity and to investigate the equivalence of symbols under their diversity.”

- Charles Davis in his review of Mysticism and Philosophical Analysis, by Steven Katz, ed.

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Thank you to our beloved Patrons: Francis, Etty, Stephen, Arash, William, Michael, Matija, Timony, Vilijami, Stoney, El techo, Stephen, Ross, Ahmed, Alexander, Diceman, Hannah, Julian, Leo, Sim, Sultan, John, Joshua, Igor, Chezi, Jorge, Andrew, Alexandra, Füsun, Lucas, Andrew, Stian, Ivana, Aédàn, Darjeeling, Astarte, Declan, Gregory, Alex, Charlie, Anonymous, Joshua, Arin, Sage, Marcel, Ahawk, Yehuda, Kevin, Evan, Shahin, Al Alami, Dale, Ethan, Gerr, Effy, Noam, Ron, Shtus, Mendel, Jared, Tim, Mystic Experiment, MM, Lenny, Justin, Joshua, Jorge, Wayne, Jason, Caroline, Yaakov, Daniel, Wodenborn, Steve, Collin, Justin, Mariana, Vic, Shaw, Carlos, Nico, Isaac, Frederick, David, Ben, Rodney, Charley, Jonathan, Chelsea, Curly Joe, Adam and Andre.

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Martin Buber is a name that will forever be associated with mysticism and philosophy. His book, I and Thou, continues to touch the lives of thousands. There is perhaps no person who has done more to preserve and present his work than world-renown Buber scholar, Paul Mendes-Flohr. In this conversation we explore Buber's transition from Mysticism to Dialogue.

Professor Paul Mendes-Flohr is a leading scholar of modern Jewish thought.

He has written some thirty books, edited another forty-five, and authored some 300 articles on modern Jewish intellectual history, philosophy and religious thought, with a focus on the lives and ideas of the leading German-Jewish intellectuals of the 19th and 20th-centuries: Martin Buber, Franz Rosenzweig, Gershom Scholem and Leo Strauss.

Paul is Professor Emeritus of Jewish Thought at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem and Professor Emeritus of Modern Jewish History and Thought at the University of Chicago, a member of the American Academy of Arts and Sciences, a Senior Research Fellow at the Van Leer Institute in Jerusalem, was the director of the Franz Rosenzweig Minerva Research Center and is the editor in chief of the twenty-two volume German edition of the collected works of Martin Buber, as well as a series on German-Jewish literature and Cultural History.

Some of his recent works include:

Gustav Landauer. Anarchist and Jew (2014).

Dialogue as a Trans-Disciplinary Concept (2015).

Martin Buber: A Life of Faith and Dissent (2019).

Cultural Disjunctions: Post-Traditional Jewish Identities (2021).

00:00 Excerpt

00:54 Introducing Paul Mendes-Flohr

02:41 Why Mysticism?

3:39 Buber and Mysticism

6:25 Ecstatic Confessions

07:28 Story time

08:27 Escapist Mysticism & Hasidism

10:25 Buber, Do you believe in God?

11:19 Buber philosophy of Dialogue

15:14 The Eternal Thou

17:13 Shalom

19:29 Judaism isn’t a political identity

22:11 How did you come to Buber?

26:43 Translating I and Thou

29:22 Buber vs Gnosticism

34:18 Hearing vs Listening

36:33 I _&_ Thou

38:01 Where is Buber today?

39:29 The Academy

41:12 Buber and Palestine

44:28 From Mysticism to Dialogue

50:24 The Reluctant Prophet

56:47 A Positive formulation of Judaism

1:03:47 To be a Child

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Come behind the scenes with Zevi as he tries to figure out what is going on in Maimonides’ Guide with the help of a new friend, the young and brilliant scholar David Fried.

David Fried teaches Talmud, Halakha, and Jewish Thought at the Ramaz Upper School in New York City. He is also an editor and frequent contributor at thelehrhaus.com David’s articles can be found here: https://thelehrhaus.com/author/davidfried/

These are David's two articles referenced in the conversation:

https://thelehrhaus.com/scholarship/mysticism-and-its-alternatives-rethinking-maimonides/

https://thelehrhaus.com/scholarship/revisiting-maimonidess-merkavah-chapters/

Full “Maimonides and Mysticism” Series: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL_7jcKJs6iwXUKaVOvNJWr5DSLPTYV0j9

00:00 Excerpts

01:38 About David and how he got into Maimonides and Mysticism

04:41 Synthesizing Maimonides and Mysticism

06:32 The Article and Beyond

08:00 David's New Thinking - Negative Theology

09:00 Maimonides shift away from Aristotelianism

10:38 Why Negative Theology?

12:46 Away from Aristotle

14:55 The Goal of Prophecy

17:26 Questioning Motivations

19:24 What’s Maimonides moving towards?

23:09 Into the Contradictions

25:52 David’s take on Hakham Jose Faur

27:48 What about Emanationism?

28:53 Some other Scholars

30:26 Mysticism and (Muslim) Philosophy

32:37 Maimonides

33:29 Critical Feedback on the Series

34:54 Was Maimonides a Pantheist?

39:49 Maimonides’ Two Gods

43:28 Does Union ever happen with God?

47:23 The Theological Irony of it All

49:49 Whom does Maimonides speak of in 3.51?

52:57 An Orthodox Façade?

54:11 Can the Human Experience God?

1:02:33 Feel like I’m missing something…

1:04:04 Etcetera

1:05:21 Guide ‘for’ the Perplexed or ‘of’ the Perplexed?

1:07:42 Again, the Irony

1:09:20 Towards a Phenomenology of Maimonides Mysticism

1:13:04 Ethics of Imitating God. The End of the Guide

1:16:18 Who was the Real Maimonides?

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If exacting rationalism and ecstatic mysticism are mutually exclusive, how does Maimonides thrive in a contemporary dynamic, ecstatic, kabbalistic mystical movement?

In this episode, we explore Maimonides’ rich afterlife in the Chabad Hasidic movement. We’ll investigate how this mystical movement embraces Maimonides philosophical and Aristotelian teachings, using Maimonides to ground its mysticism. We’ll look at Chabad’s theological and philosophical explanations for how to reconcile the apparent dissonance between Maimonides and its own symbolic teachings. Finally, we’ll learn how Maimonides' work provides a model for Chabad’s idealized spiritual activism.

Maimonides the Hasid? Chabad and Rambam.

Check out the rest of our Maimonides series: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL_7jcKJs6iwXUKaVOvNJWr5DSLPTYV0j9

Elisha Pearl is a student and teacher of Jewish texts, practices, and traditions. He has taught from the Himalayas to the Alps, and from the Judean Hills to the Texan Plains.

Elisha grew up in Brooklyn, studied Jewish mysticism at yeshivot around the world and is an ordained Rabbi. Elisha also holds degrees in philosophy and psychology. Elisha is particularly interested in how Jewish texts and embodied practices answer perennial existential questions and illuminate the human experience.

Elisha’s youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC1jjMY4zr97S8AetoqWoKnw

Some of Elisha’s lectures can be found at https://www.yutorah.org/rabbi-elisha-pearl/

Special thanks to Chabad of West Orange for hosting Elisha for the filming.

- Torah Or p 120c

- Toras Menachem Hisvaaduyos 5744 v. 3 p. 194

- Toras Menachem Hisvaaduyos 5749 v. 1 p. 140.

- Derekh Mitzvotekha Mitsvat Milah pages 8b-9a

- Chayyei Moharan, teachings 407-409

- Guide 3.43

- Derech Mitzotecha Mitzvat Chametz U’Matza.

- Siddur Im Dach s.v. Sheshet Yamim and the two subsequent essays:

- Shaar HaEmuna chapters 1-20

- Derech Mitzvotekha 5a – Mitzvas Millah

- Derech Mitzvotekha 22b – Mitzvas Pesach U’Matza

On Maimonides Aristotelianism as grounding for Chabad thought:

https://www.academia.edu/77790775/All_is_One_Maimonides_Doctrine_of_Divine_Cognition_as_a_Pillar_of_Habad_Thought

https://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/1032671/rabbi-elisha-pearl/all-is-one-exploring-rambam-s-aristotelean-doctrine-of-divine-cognition-as-a-pillar-of-chabad-thought/

Yaakov Gottlieb, Sachlatanut B’Levush Hasidi, Rationalism in Hasidic Attire, which offers a somewhat different, but much fuller narrative account of Maimonides relationship with the Chabad tradition. https://www.biupress.co.il/index.php?dir=site&page=catalog&op=item&cs=1313

YMM Ezagui, Dvar Malchut, which offers an exhaustive nearly 800-page compilation of the Rebbe’s essays and lectures on Maimonides writings concerning the Messianic era. Exploring the integrative project that the Rebbe engaged in between Maimonidean rationalism and Chabad mysticism. https://seforimplace.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=8281&search=%D7%93%D7%91%D7%A8+%D7%9E%D7%9C%D7%9B%D7%95%D7%AA

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Judaism’s greatest philosopher, Moses Maimonides, believed that Judaism’s ancient mystery tradition with all her secrets, had been lost to sands of time, and took it upon himself to reconstruct them, on his own, from scratch, with the tools of philosophy and rationality.

Maimonides is known as the great Jewish rationalist of the Middle Ages, but his rationalism, goes deeper than most might suspect. Maimonides was a rationalist who believed that through the very tools of philosophy, with a perfect synthesis of mysticism and rationalism, he could re-discover the lost secret traditions of ancient Jewish mysticism, and uncover the true meaning of the bible.

Join us in this final episode, where we hope to, for once and for all, answer the question of whether Maimonides was a rationalist or a mystic and find out he was really up to in his Guide for the Perplexed.

Watch the rest of the Maimonides and Mysticism series: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4ZgHJxQQVo&list=PL_7jcKJs6iwXUKaVOvNJWr5DSLPTYV0j9

00:00 Maimonides Rationalism

13:13 Maimonides Mysticism

28:42 Lost Traditions

31:47 Prophecy and Reason

48:09 Telling Secrets

53:41 Maimonides today

Thank you to Elisha Pearl, David Fried, Jeffery Radon and Levi Morrow for their thoughtful feedback and suggestions on this episode.

• J. Heschel, “Did Maimonides Believe That He Had Attained the Rank of Prophet,” in Prophetic Inspiration After the Prophets, 1996

• Alexander Altmann, “Maimonides’ Attitude Toward Jewish Mysticism,” in Alfred Jospe, ed., Studies in Jewish Thought: An Anthology of German Jewish Scholarship (Detroit: Wayne State University Press, 1981), 200-219

• Diana Lobel, “Silence Is Praise to You” Maimonides on Negative Theology, Looseness of Expression, and Religious Experience, in American Catholic Philosophical Quarterly vol. 76, no. 1, 2002, pp. 35-6

• Elliot R Wolfson, Abraham Abulafia, Kabbalist and Prophet Hermeneutics, Theosophy, and Theurgy, 2000, pp. 9-93

• Elliot Wolfson “Via Negativa in Maimonides and Its Impact on Thirteenth- Century Kabbalah.” In Maimonidean Studies 5, 2008

• Gideon Freudenthal, The Philosophical Mysticism of Maimonides and Maimon

• Ithamar Gruenwald, “Maimonides’ Quest beyond Philosophy and Prophecy,” in Perspectives, ed. J. L. Kraemer (Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1996)

• José Faur, Homo Mysticus: A Guide to Maimonides' Guide for the Perplexed, 1998

• Julius Guttmann, “Introduction” in Maimonides, The Guide Of The Perplexed, An Abridged Edition, East And West Library New York, 1947

• Louis Jacobs, Attitudes of the Kabbalists and Hasidim towards Maimonides, in The Solomon Goldman Lectures, vol. v, ed. Byron L. Sherwin and Michael Carasik (Chicago Spertus College of Judaica Press, 1990, pp. 45-55)

• Moshe Halbertal, “The History of Halakhah, Views from Within: Three Medieval Approaches to Tradition and Controversy,” in Harvard Law School Gruss Lectures (Cambridge, MA: Harvard Law School, 1994), 1-19

• Moshe Idel, “Maimonides and Kabbalah,” in Studies In Maimonides, Isadore Twersky (ed.), Harvard University Press, 1990

• The Cultures of Maimonideanism, by James T. Robinson (ed.) 2009, p. xi

• W. Z. Harvey, "The Return to Maimonideanism," Journal of Jewish Studies 42 (1980) 263, n. 1

• Yamin Levy, “How I was Taught to Read the Guide” in Principles, Essays on Halakha, Maḥshaba and History, Journal of the Ḥabura, January 2022, Edition 4

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Something very odd happens in the very last chapter of Maimonides’ Guide which remains an elusive puzzle even today, 800 years on.

Maimonides, in Guide 3.51, lays out in stunning detail, the pinnacle of religious worship and human striving, culminating in an immortal union with the divine, what he calls the ‘kiss of death,’ the peak of his mystical journey.

However, the Guide does not end with that peak of religious experience and erotic mystical ecstasy, nor with the striving to know (and unite with) God intellectually, neither does it in the depths of silent praise in which nothing at all can be said of God. But it ends instead with a final beautiful idea which combines all three.

Join us as we take a final journey through the final chapter of the magnificent Guide, to see Maimonides final teaching to the perplexed, to make sense of his ultimate word to the seeker.

Check out the rest of our Maimonides series: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL_7jcKJs6iwXUKaVOvNJWr5DSLPTYV0j9

00:00 Intro

01:13 Rationalist and Mystic

02:00 Bad Mysticism

03:08 Knowledge of God as the Pinnacle

03:36 The Four Perfections

05:43 Maimonides the Arch-Rationalist

06:27 A Different Ending – Ethics

08:02 Actions of Attributes, not Essence

08:41 Imitato Dei, 1.54

11:42 Imitato Dei in Halacha

13:04 Compassion, even to a Slave

15:19 Mysticism tho…

20:04 Resolution

18:41 Why we do this

22:53 Technical Again

24:16 Concluding Prayer

25:11 Afterthought

27:25 Thank you

Sources and Further Reading

• Jonathan Gorsky, “Maimonides Spirituality: Intellectual Mysticism and the Love of God,” in Jewish, Christian, and Islamic Mystical Perspectives on the Love of God, S. T. Hidden (ed), 2004

• Julius Guttmann, “Introduction” in Maimonides, The Guide of The Perplexed, An Abridged Edition, East and West Library New York, 1947

• Shlomo Pines, "The Limits of Human Knowledge According to Alfarabi, Ibn Bajja, and Maimonides," Studies in Medieval Jewish History and Literature, vol. 1, ed. I. Twersky, 1979

• Joseph Citron, Maimonides and Mysticism, unpublished

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There’s one final question to ask when examining Maimonides mysticism and that is, did Maimonides believe that the human could actually reach, know and experience God? Getting down to the fine print in the debate about Maimonides mysticism: Did Maimonides believe that one could know and unite with something metaphysical? And if so, which metaphysical entity does he believe the aspiring seeker can know and unite with, is it an entity which can be considered divine, God, or ultimate reality, making this union properly mystical in nature, a unio mystica? Can one, according to Maimonides, unite with God or only with the Active Intellect? And if it’s the later, does he believe that the Active Intellect is divine, and if so in what way, and what does that mean for his mysticism?

Sources and Further Reading: • Adam Afterman “And They Shall Be One Flesh”: On the Language of Mystical Union in Judaism, 2016, pp. 105-119 • Alexander Altmann, "Maimonides on the Intellect and the Scope of Metaphysics," 1987, 60-129.  • Alfred L. Ivry, “Maimonides and Neoplatonism” in Neoplatonism and Jewish Thought, 1992 • Aviezer Ravitzky, “The Secrets of the “Guide to the Perplexed,” Studies in Maimonides, 1990, 159–207.  • Barry Kogan, "What Can We Know and When Can We Know It?," in Moses Maimonides and His Time, 1989, 130-7 • David Fried, Mysticism and its Alternatives: Rethinking Maimonides, 2018 • Diana Lobel, “Silence Is Praise to You” Maimonides on Negative Theology, Looseness of Expression, and Religious Experience, in American Catholic Philosophical Quarterly vol. 76, no. 1, 2002. • Gideon Freudenthal, “The Philosophical Mysticism of Maimonides and Maimon,” in Maimonides and his Heritage, 2009, 117-118. • Hannah Kasher, “Self-Cognizing Intellect and Negative Attributes in Maimonides’ Theology.”  • Herbert A. Davidson, Alfarabi, Avicenna, and Averroes on Intellect: Their Cosmologies, Theories of the Active Intellect, and Theories of Human Intellect, 1992, 197-207.  • Herbert Davidson, "Maimonides on Metaphysical Knowledge," Maimonidean Studies 3 (1992-93): 79-87.  • Idit Dobbs-Weinstein, Maimonides and St. Thomas on the Limits of Reason, 1995 • Josef Stern, “Maimonides’ Demonstrations: Principles and Practice,” Medieval Philosophy and Theology 10 (2001): 80.  • Joseph Citron, Maimonides and Mysticism, unpublished  • Julius Guttmann, “Introduction” in Maimonides, The Guide of The Perplexed, 1947 • Julius Guttmann, Religion and Knowledge, 103–118, especially 111. [Hebrew]  • Michah Gottlieb, “Two Paradigms of the Nexus Between Philosophy and Mysticism Judah Halevi and Moses Maimonides” in Faith, Reason, Politics, 2013 • Moshe Idel, Studies in Ecstatic Kabbalah (NY: SUNY Press, 1988), p. 4  • Philip Merlan, Monopsychism, Mysticism, Metaconsciousness: Problems of the Soul in the Neoaristotelian and Neoplatonic Tradition, 1963 • Sarah Pessin, The Influence of Islamic Thought on Maimonides • Shlomo Pines, "The Limits of Human Knowledge According to Alfarabi, Ibn Bajja, and Maimonides," Studies in Medieval Jewish History and Literature, vol. 1, ed. I. Twersky, 1979, p. 94-100 • Shlomo Pines, “The Philosophical Purport of Maimonides Halachic Works and the Purport of the Guide of the Perplexed,” in Maimonides and Philosophy, 1986, 1-14.

Join us for a wild ride through the mind of Maimonides into the mind of God. Exploring Maimonides theory of knowledge (epistemology). How one may activate their mind by uniting with the divine active intellect. Followed by Maimonides radical and brilliant re-reading of divine providence.

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Thank you to our beloved Patrons: Leo, Sim, Sultan, John, Joshua, Igor, Chezi, Jorge, Andrew, Alexandra, Füsun, Lucas, Andrew, Stian, Ivana, Aédàn, Darjeeling, Astarte, Declan, Gregory, Alex, Charlie, Anonymous, Joshua, Arin, Sage, Marcel, Ahawk, Yehuda, Kevin, Evan, Shahin, Al Alami, Dale, Ethan, Gerr, Effy, Noam, Ron, Shtus, Mendel, Jared, Tim, Mystic Experiment, MM, Lenny, Justin, Joshua, Jorge, Wayne, Jason, Caroline, Yaakov, Daniel, Wodenborn, Steve, Collin, Justin, Mariana, Vic, Shaw, Carlos, Nico, Isaac, Frederick, David, Ben, Rodney, Charley, Jonathan, Chelsea, Curly Joe, Adam and Andre.  

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