Service Design Show

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Service Design Show episodes

August 01, 2024How to Design Service Endings That Don't Stink / Joe Macleod / Ep. #207
Ever felt trapped in a service you couldn't escape...
Trying to end a subscription only to face a frustrating maze of hurdles?
Let's face it, service endings are often the worst experience ever.
The good news is that it doesn't have to be this way.
In fact, well-designed endings can be a secret weapon for your business.
Think about it – when customers inevitably move on, what's the final impression they take with them?
Sadly, most companies neglect or wilfully ignore this crucial stage of the customer lifecycle.
They hide the cancel button, throw obstacles in your path, and make leaving feel like a punishment.
It's a missed opportunity because, historically, businesses have focused all their energy on acquiring new customers rather than on gracefully saying goodbye.
But what if we flipped the script?
What if endings felt like graduations, where we celebrate customers moving on to new adventures?
Could those who leave become our biggest fans?
This isn't just a pipe dream. Joe Macleod, who's literally written the book on this topic (twice!), joins us on the Show to share how to design endings that leave a positive, lasting impact.
We'll unpack the secrets of great endings, how they differ from beginnings, and the undeniable business case for getting this right.
Trust me, this episode is an eye-opener.
Once you hear it, you'll see opportunities everywhere to turn departing customers into brand ambassadors.
So, if you don't want all your hard work building good customer relationships to go to waste when they leave, tune in and learn how to make every goodbye a fond farewell (and maybe even a new beginning!).

--- [ 1. GUIDE ] ---
00:00 Welcome to episode 207
05:30 About Joe and Endings
07:00 Ending Journey
08:30 Joe's Passion for Endings
15:00 Businesses & Endings
18:00 Businesses & Status Quo?
20:00 Reassurance Endings
24:30 Divorce example
27:00 Measuring quality of an ending
35:00 Endings & Memberships
38:00 Alumni or Death Phase?
43:00 Healthcare Offboarding Example
47:00 Ex-Customers = Value
51:00 Importance of Alumnis
53:00 Pondering about Endings
55:00 3rd Book Preview
57:00 Giveaway announcement
58:00 Resources
59:00 Key Takeaways

--- [ 2. LINKS ] ---
https://www.linkedin.com/in/josephmacleod/

Endineering by Joe Macleod (Book) - https://www.andend.co/endineeringbook

Ends by Joe Macleod (book) - https://www.andend.co/book

www.andend.co

--- [ 3. CONTEST ] ---
To enter the contest, head over to the video version of this conversation on YouTube and leave a comment there to answer the question posed in the episode.
https://go.servicedesignshow.com/207-youtube

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1 hr 3 min
July 18, 2024The Roadmap to Demonstrating Design's Impact / Ryan Rumsey / Ep. #206
Let's crack the code of proving design's impact on the bottom line...
For this, we first have to go back to 2012. That year, a groundbreaking discovery was made at CERN. The existence of the Higgs Boson, a particle that had eluded scientists for over 40 years, was finally proven.
You know what? I feel that this elusive quest is very similar to our own pursuit in the world of service design: proving the undeniable business value of design. We see its impact all around us, but providing it with hard evidence remains a struggle.
Our guest this week, Ryan Rumsey, may hold the key that gets us closer to unlocking this mystery. One reason the Higgs Boson took so long to find was that the researchers were unsure where to look.
As former Apple executive, author of "Business Thinking for Designers," and founder of the Chief Design Officer School, Ryan proposes that we, just as the researchers at CERN, may have been looking in the wrong place all along.
Many companies, he argues, don't actually need (good) design to turn a profit, which makes it difficult to isolate its added value.
But fear not, there are tested and tried methods to uncover the correlation between our work and its impact on the bottom line.
As you'll hear in this episode, it might not be as complex as we sometimes are made to believe; it could simply be a matter of putting in the work.
The discovery of the Higgs Boson faced similar challenges, requiring unwavering determination and persistence.
This is an episode about business speak, statistics and our self-worth. And somehow, it's still quite entertaining if you ask me.
So if you're even remotely interested being able to clearly articulate the value you bring to your organization, you don't miss out on this one!
I echo Ryan's argument that every design professional, even those in-house, should embrace an entrepreneurial spirit. Understanding marketing, positioning, and even sales can be immensely beneficial.
Ryan is truly one of a kind, and I'm always grateful to be able to learn from
him.
I hope you enjoy our conversation as much as I did.
~ Marc

--- [ 1. GUIDE ] ---
00:00 Welcome to Episode 206
07:00 OKRs & KPIs
13:00 Rethinking Measurement
16:00 Strategy Mapping
22:00 Statistician Thinking
29:30 Measuring Impact
32:00 Google's Money Machine
33:30 The Implication
37:00 Beyond Best Service
37:30 Apple vs Dell: Design?
42:00 Management & Narrative
48:30 Design vs. Innovation
49:30 Minto Pyramid
52:30 EasyJet Example
57:30 Defining Good Work
1:02:45 Community Matters
1:08:00 Key Takeaways
1:09:30 How You Can Help Ryan

--- [ 2. LINKS ] ---
https://www.linkedin.com/in/ryanrumsey/

https://www.letsjumpship.com/

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1 hr 9 min
July 04, 2024Why BAD services are good for you / Lou Downe / Ep. #205
Good Services... A book that has quickly become a classic in our field.
If you haven't read it yet, it's a must. It outlines the 10 principles of good services, which is pretty fundamental stuff.
But even before writing it, Lou Downe was already an icon, creating impact as the Director of Design at the Government Digital Service in the UK.
So when I heard through the grapevine that there was a sequel in the making, I just had to invite Lou back to the show.
Interestingly enough, our conversation started with a question: Why, even after all these years, are we still trying to justify the value we bring to the table?
There's nothing wrong with articulating our value, of course. But how can we make it a two-way street, rather than all the burden falling on us, the design community?
These days, Lou runs the School of Good Design, where they help professionals tackle this very challenge. So in this episode, we get to tap into a wealth of practical advice based on their experience.
But we didn't stop there. We also dive into:
* What has changed since "Good Services" was published in 2020?
* What drove Lou to write a follow-up, and how will it differ from the first one?
* What does the future hold for service design?
Lou dropped a surprise during our conversation.
As the new book is still in the works, there's a unique opportunity for you to contribute!
You'll hear all the details in the episode.

--- [ 1. GUIDE ] ---
00:00 Welcome (keep the same)
04:00 Beyond Design Justification
05:20 Good Services Journey
08:00 The Gap: Bad Services
13:30 Finding Value's Middle Ground
16:00 External Validation
19:00 Misunderstanding Service Design
25:00 Lightbulb Moment
28:30 Great Service Example
31:30 Design vs. Service Pros
35:00 Understanding the Service
37:00 Service "Designers" debate
44:00 Understanding your role
48:00 Grow Service Design Skills
51:00 The New Service Book
53:00 New Book vs. Good Services
55:00 How We Can Help
56:30 Wrapping Up

--- [ 2. LINKS ] ---
https://www.linkedin.com/in/lou-downe-757a83b/

https://good.services/

https://good.services/home

https://good.services/deadendspodcast

https://good.services/contact

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1 hr 5 min
June 20, 2024Exploring The Materials of Service Design / Simon Clathworthy / Ep. #204
What are the materials of service design... A seemingly simple question, but one that I believe has the potential to reshape our understanding of service design.

Historically, design has always been about shaping and manipulating materials to give form to things around us.

It's only in recent years, with the popularization of design thinking, that design has drifted away from its roots and heritage of a craft.

The focus shifted on -sometimes mindlessly- following a flawed double diamond process.

Even though people over the recent years have tried to raise the question of what the materials of service design are, the conversation never really caught on.

Something tells me that's about to change with the release of the book "The Materials of Service Design." (links below)

This book, in my opinion, marks a turning point in the history of our field. Yes, I absolutely feel it's that important, and no, I'm not getting any commissions on the book sales.

It offers a fresh, materials-based perspective that adds a much needed nuance and richness to how we think about service design.

Imagine being able to have constructive conversations about designing with time, relationships, culture, and all the other materials that make up services.

Imagine understanding the properties of these materials deeply enough to co-create a shared library of service design patterns.

The implications are huge.

This approach once again makes it clear that services can't be designed by a single person; they require the involvement of experts from many areas.

It also challenges us to reimagine how we teach service design.

All in all, it really does open up a world of new questions and possibilities.

As you hopefully can read, I'm excited about the direction and trajectory that could take us.

So, join Simon Clatworthy, co-author of the book, and myself as we dive into this exciting new perspective of a materials-based approach to service design.

--- [ 1. GUIDE ] ---
00:00 Welcome to Episode 204
04:30 Beyond the Toolkit
08:00 The 4 Unexpected Materials
11:00 Lost Essential?
16:30 Service Design vs. Design Thinking
20:00 Skills for Designing Services
24:00 Unveiling the Book's Materials
30:00 Data as Material: Conversations
34:00 Shaping Conversations
42:00 Time: A Material to Master
44:30 Measuring Time in Design
46:30 Specialization in Service Design
49:00 The Rise of Service Design Specialists
51:00 Co-Design: Your Service Design Team
54:30 The Responsibility of Design
58:00 Implications for Service Designers
1:01:00 Beyond Designers: Service Experts
1:06:00 The "Taste Buds" of a Service
1:07:00 A Library of Service Materials
1:09:00 Aesthetics of Service Design

--- [ 2. LINKS ] ---
https://www.linkedin.com/in/simon-clatworthy

The Materials of Service Design (Book) - https://go.servicedesignshow.com/yl2ym
50% discount on the print copy with code: BLOM50 (valid until 31st July 2024)
How to Read A Film by James Monaco (Book) - https://a.co/d/8Rv0ZE5

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1 hr 13 min
June 06, 2024The Secrets to Effective Design Leadership / Marzia Arico / Ep. #203
What does it take to become a great design leader...
Regardless of whether or not it's in your official job title, you're already leading to some degree.
You are leading because your work is to deliver change.
Change because we want to break free from outdated mental models that can't solve today's challenges.
But what kind of leadership is needed to transform our organizations from the dehumanizing machines they are today into adaptable living beings?
Returning guest Marzia Arico has some valuable perspectives on this.
With a PhD in Organizational Studies and experience leading complex projects at LiveWork, she has many juicy insights to share with us.
In this episode, we explore the emergence of a new, more empathetic leadership style that's quite different from the traditional notion of leadership.
We discuss how to present ourselves confidently in our work, even when imposter syndrome is lurking around the corner.
And we also delve into whether we should be explicit about the change we seek make or take a more trojan horse approach to influencing things.
This is a must-listen episode for anyone who wants to step up, take charge, and offer an alternative to the current leaders who aren't doing what's required today.
This conversation is a powerful reminder that we are all setting an example. Each and every day. So let's be intentional about what we want to put into the world.
Take care and keep making a positive impact.
~ Marc
--- [ 1. GUIDE ] ---

00:00 Welcome to Episode 203
03:30 Welcome back Marzia
04:30 Machines to Living Beings
11:30 What made her want to make the change
17:00 How to quickly build your confidence
21:30 From Machines to Living Orgs
30:30 Onboard with How, Not What
33:30 Conversation with the oblivious
40:00 Empathizing with the machine
42:00 The example of technology
46:00 Fast-tracking to leadership
47:00 Being strategic when you talk
50:30 Discussions to ponder
51:30 Food for thought
--- [ 2. LINKS ] ---
https://www.linkedin.com/in/marziaarico

https://design.mavericks.substack.com

https://strategicdesignbook.com/
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57 min
May 23, 2024Can Design Help Us Break Free From Broken Systems? / Fang-Jui Chang / Episode #202
Why is it that we rarely question the systems that govern our day-to-day lives?
Imagine building a rocket ship while still believing the sun revolves around the earth. Even though this sounds ridiculous today, it's not that long ago that this was the accepted notion. When Galileo first made the claim that it was actually the other way around, he even got jail time.
Yeah, people don't really like it when their fundamental beliefs are put up for scrutiny. Our history is full of "truths" we later debunked.
Okay, so what does this have to do with service design What if you're currently designing services that are based on flawed beliefs? There's certainly reason to think so.
So, in this week's episode, we explore what these beliefs could be. For that, I have invited Fang-Jui Chang from the Dark Matter Labs to join us at the Show.
In the conversation we dive into the hidden systems we take for granted, like ownership, currency, and even government.
Fair warning: This episode will challenge your assumptions. It might even feel a bit like mental jiu-jitsu at first (it surely did for me). But once things click, a whole new world of possibilities opens up. And judging by the news, I would argue that we need a radical new perspective on how our world operates in many areas.
So join me for a conversation that will challenge the way you see the world, question some fundamental "truths" and give you some fresh insights along the way.
This is one of those episodes where I had to let the ideas marinade a bit. It's all too easy to dismiss them because they seem incompatible with how our existing worldview. But defer judgment, and you might be surprised what happens.
Take care and keep making a positive impact.
~ Marc
--- [ 1. GUIDE ] ---
00:00 Welcome to Episode 202
04:00 Who is Fang-Jui
07:00 How she got into SD
10:00 Lightning Round
12:30 All beings thriving
18:30 Outdated systems fail
23:00 Asking a river permission
30:00 What we took for granted
38:30 How to prevent overwhelm
46:00 Moving forward without panic
48:00 The skill that will help
51:30 what we can to help
1:01:00 where to reach them
1:01:30 One thing you can remember
--- [ 2. LINKS ] ---
https://radiclecivics.cc

https://darkmatterlabs.org

https://twitter.com/darkmatter_labs

https://www.linkedin.com/company/darkmatterlabs

Please get in touch with the Radicle Civics team via [email protected] if you are interested in building proof of possibilities in your cities or communities and funding the work.
--- [ 3. CIRCLE ] ---
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1 hr 4 min
May 09, 2024What it takes come out stronger from a crisis / Lilli Graf / Ep #201
My daughter dared me to 15 meters free-fall... I was on a climbing track with her, and this was one of the "attractions." Of course, she had taken the plunge without shedding a sweat.
So, there I was standing on the edge, ready to take the jump, while everything in my body was screaming NO. I hesitated, terrified... but backing out was not an option. Especially not when a 10-year old girl is cheering dad on from the ground.
Sometimes, you just have to leap into the unknown and trust that things will turn out alright.
Our guest this week, Lilli Graf, also took a massive leap. She left a safe job at a respected design agency to go independent and start her own business. Why? Because she knew 'less bad' isn't good enough anymore when it comes to our climate crisis.
Her journey in the last few years has thrown up many challenges. So, I wanted to know what kept her going, what she had learned so far, and what she would have done differently, looking back.
Of course, we also had to talk about what pushed her over the edge to make the leap in the first place. This episode is about way more than climate solutions (though those are fascinating).
It's about YOU... As service design professionals, we champion change. We push our clients to step into the unknown. But how often do we do that same?
I hope this honest and open conversation will inspire you to leap more often. What fascinated me is how well Lilli's story shows the ripple effect of our choices. From childhood to career, it all connects.
What will your next ripple be?
--- [ 1. GUIDE ] ---
00:00 Welcome to Episode 201
03:00 Who is Lilli
04:00 how Lilli heard about SD
05:15 Lightning Round
06:15 Community needs to reflect
11:15 Why Lilli needed to Step Back
13:30 Moving to the sustainability spectrum
19:30 World that's not going to be here
22:30 Black foot tribe
25:00 The responses / the results
29:15 Crisis to nature and to ourselves
33:15 How do I preserve this life?
39:15 What Imma Collective is doing
45:00 The biggest challenge
49:00 Do it with Joy and patience
50:30 The journey most proud of so far
51:30 One piece of advise
54:30 How to embark in this journey too

--- [ 2. LINKS ] ---
https://www.linkedin.com/in/elisabeth-lilli-graf/

https://www.immacollective.com/

Change by Design by Tim Brown (Book)

Everyday Utopia: What 2,000 Years of Wild Experiments Can Teach Us About the Good Life by Kristen R. Ghodsee (Book)

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59 min
April 25, 2024Your Burning Questions Answered / Marc Fonteijn / Ep #200
Recently, I turned 43... I don't really celebrate my birthdays anymore.
Don't worry; I have an amazing wife who makes sure there's always cake.
But I do always try to take a moment and reflect on my past year because “The only time you should ever look back, is to see how far you've come.”
Well, today, it's not just about my journey; it's about ours.
We've hit a massive Service Design Show milestone: 200 episodes!
That's a new interview every two weeks for over 8 years.
And by now, we've clocked in over 500.000 listens to our conversations. Truly mind-boggling.
Especially when you consider how niche our field is (still). It tells me what I do matters to people like you.
Honestly, if I had to, I'd still do this show just for my own learning... but knowing you're out there makes it so much better.
To celebrate, I'm flipping the script. For this episode, it's me answering YOUR questions. Some are about service design, some get a bit personal...
Here's a sneak peek:
Is Journey Management the next big thing?

Will service design disappear?

How does the Show make money?

How do I keep sane working solo?
You might be surprised by some of the answers.
Guess, there's only one way to find out...
This episode was a lot of fun and quite a challenge to produce. Let me know if you like this format – maybe we'll do a follow up...
Take care,
~ Marc

--- [ 1. GUIDE ] ---
00:00 Welcome to episode 200
01:50 Why Service Design
04:30 Lessons learned from 200+ conversations
10:15 The business model
16:15 How to stay healthy and sane
25:00 Communicating service design
31:00 Designing timeless services
36:00 Is Journey Management the next big thing
40:00 Where are things going

--- [ 2. LINKS ] ---
https://www.linkedin.com/in/marcfonteijn/

https://www.servicedesignshow.com/circle/

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50 min
April 11, 2024What Design(ers) Needs to do to Stay Relevant / Yvonne Tran / Episode #199
Is design facing a crisis? You don't have to spend much time on LinkedIn to read about the recent layoffs, studio closures, and debates about our value.
Whether or not you call it a crisis, it's hard to deny that things have been shaken up recently. But instead of focusing on surface level symptoms, let's dive deeper.
In this episode, we sit down with Yvonne Tran, design director at the New York Times, to explore the underlying forces that shape design. Where are we coming from, and what could be its next destination. Why is design in its current state?
Is this a backlash against the widespread understanding of "design thinking"? If everyone's a designer, what's the unique value a professional brings?
Despite the challenges, Yvonne still sees a bright future for design. As our clients and colleagues evolve and mature, so must we. In our conversation, Yvonne outlined three key areas where design can continue to provide unique value.
A thought-provoking episode for anyone interested in new ways to think about how to keep playing a meaningful role in the future.
It's all too easy to get bogged down in the daily grind. What I enjoyed about this conversation with Yvonne is that we zoomed out and challenged our perspectives. Let's look beyond the horizon of this quarter and make decisions that are grounded in a long-term perspective.
Inspired? Share this with someone who needs to hear it.
Take care,
~ Marc
--- [ 1. GUIDE ] ---
00:00 Welcome to Episode 199
03:30 Who is Yvonne
04:30 How she stumbled to SD
06:00 Lightning Round
10:00 Design, Designers, & Innovation
14:00 The promise of design thinking
17:30 What's the impact
27:00 The new role of design community
37:00 Aligning people's expectations
39:30 How to accelerate demand
44:00 How to measure success
48:30 One takeaway
--- [ 2. LINKS ] ---
https://www.linkedin.com/in/yvonnetran/

Braiding Sweetgrass by Robin Wall Kimmerer (Book) - https://a.co/d/3Jho54D
--- [ 3. CIRCLE ] ---
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54 min
March 28, 2024How to Stop the Erosion of Great Services? / Cameron Tonkinwise / Episode #198
This has to stop... I don't care what they say. Chatbots s*ck.
But we, as service design professionals, have the power to make things better.
Sure, ChatGPT and Google Gemini are impressive tools, but a chatbot on a company's website? Probably one of the most frustrating experiences you can have these days.
This trend toward replacing humans in service delivery is a growing concern.
There's nothing wrong with trying to optimize processes. It becomes a problem when it's done in a mindless way to solely cut costs at the expense of the user experience.
Our guest, Cameron Tonkinwise, makes a compelling case for preserving the human element in service delivery. Because removing this vital component erodes something incredibly valuable that AI (or any other tech) can't and will never be able to replicate.
As you can imagine, simply pointing out the problem isn't enough.
So, in our conversation, we explore how to make a strong case for human-driven services... even to the most skeptical stakeholders.
Spoiler: Waiting for our clients to change their minds isn't the answer. It requires a proactive approach on our part.
If you work in a product or tech-driven environment, this episode will hopefully give you the energy and ideas to challenge the relentless push for short-term optimization.
The chat with Cameron reminded me that we have a responsibility to design the future we want to see rather than just being of service to others.
Enjoy the conversation and keep making a positive impact!
Take care,
~ Marc

--- [ 1. GUIDE ] ---
00:00 This is Episode 198
04:00 Who is Cameron
05:00 How he stumbled to SD
12:30 the current perspective to SD
15:00 the ideal outcome
16:45 A vastly uneducated community
24:00 Why the model isn't adopted
26:00 How to support the current economy
29:30 Hockey puck story
33:30 Thoughts in AI
39:00 What you can be offering
41:30 Expressing the need
45:00 Importance of frontline observation
50:00 One practical takeaway
52:00 Connect with Cameron
--- [ 2. LINKS ] ---
https://www.linkedin.com/in/cameron-tonkinwise-80a5987/
--- [ 3. CIRCLE ] ---
Join our private community for in-house service design professionals. ⁠https://servicedesignshow.com/circle
56 min