Service Design Show

It's just not designed for me...

That thought hits me every time I'm in the kitchen, wrestling, trying to prepare a healthy meal for the family.

Reading recipes six times over, scrambling for ingredients, juggling the chaos of parallel cooking... yeah, it's a mess.

And then, there's my wife, a natural chef, gliding through it all with effortless grace. Watching her is like watching poetry in motion.

This stark contrast reinforces that the kitchen and everything in it feels utterly alien to me.

Now, as a white, middle-aged, English-speaking, physically able male, I'll be the first to admit this feeling of alienation is rare for me when dealing with most products and services. And yes, cooking is a trivial example.

But countless people who face do face this daily in situations far more critical.

Imagine navigating healthcare, financial services, or public services, feeling like they weren't designed for you. Now that's a serious problem.

Unfortunately, this is the reality for more services than we'd maybe like to admit.

Sure, from a service design (and business perspective), it's easy to justify focusing on the majority.

Time and resources are limited, so we design for the "center of the bell curve," the biggest group or the most profitable users. If that means excluding some, well, that's just business, right?

But our guest, Jess Kessin, argues that good design does not exclude.

She proposes an alternative approach: inclusive design that's both effective and cost-efficient. In fact, she insists it pays for itself.

So, how do we bring more inclusive practices into our design process? How do we make the business case? And what are some practical starting points?

We dive into all of that and much more in this episode.

As I've often said on the Show, making our services inclusive is our responsibility as a design community.

Even (especially) when no one is asking, it should be our own professional standard for good design.

Enjoy the conversation, and as always, keep making a positive impact.

~ Marc

--- [ 1. GUIDE ] ---

00:00Welcome to Episode 224

03:30 Meet Jess

05:15 Discussion of D-School

06:30 Barriers to Implementing Inclusive Design

08:30 The Business Case

11:00 Addressing Stakeholder Profit Concerns

13:30 Prototyping Inclusive Design

15:00 Identifying Key Focus Areas

17:00 Living up to design standard

22:00 Engaging "Edge Users"

25:00 Designing for Extreme Users

29:00 Expanding Design to "All" of Humanity

32:00 Community-Driven Design

33:00 Untapped Market Potential

35:30 Misconceptions Among Design Students

41:00 Blind Spots in Design Education

44:30 Learning from Users with Disabilities

45:00 Discovering Insights from Outliers

46:00 Importance of Good Design

49:00 Practical tips for designer

51:30 The Future of Inclusive Design

55:00 AI as a Tool for Inclusive Design

58:00 Taking Leadership in Inclusive Design

1:00:00 Food for Thought

--- [ 2. LINKS ] ---

• https://www.linkedin.com/in/jessicazkessin/

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I try to avoid conflict... most of the time.

It creates tension that I usually find counter-productive.

But what if this tension is actually the catalyst for growth?

Have I been missing out?

Our guest Tash Willcocks thinks so.

She's a self-proclaimed former conflict avoider who now champions the idea of "running towards the conflict" to unlock its potential for positive change.

Yes, conflict creates a tension that most of us instinctively shy away from.

But according to Tash, this tension can foster collaboration and drive personal growth when channeled in the right ways.

There's just one small problem.

Conflict in the workplace often occurs when people give (or receive) feedback. But most of us aren't really great at this.

So, instead of using feedback as a constructive opportunity, things either spiral out of control, or people conceal the key message out of politeness.

In both cases, it's a missed opportunity.

The art is to find that sweet spot between kindness and clarity, where we can give and receive feedback in a way that feels supportive and helps us grow.

I have to say, Tash's journey from conflict avoidance to embracing tension is quite inspiring.

So, if you want to turn those tough conversations into moments where you learn and grow the most, this episode has you covered.

Tash made me think: What is the best feedback I've received, from whom, and what made it so powerful? What would be your answer...

Enjoy the episode, and keep making a positive impact!

~ Marc

--- [ 1. GUIDE ] ---

00:00 Welcome to episode 223

04:00 Embracing creative conflict

05:45 What sparked her interest in this topic

07:00 Take hard conversations

10:30 Run towards the conflict

13:00 Teaching conflict

16:00 Opening up wounds

19:00 Radical candor

23:30 Avoiding hard talks

21430 Overcoming avoidance

27:00 Feedback and timing

30:00 Giving & receiving feedback

32:30 People solve problems

35:00 Beyond reading design books

38:00 Starving artist mindset

39:15 Takeaways so far

43:30 Drama triangle vs Empowerment triangle

47:00 Creating self-awareness while drawing

49:30 Drawing as journaling

51:00 Ruthlessly curious

53:00 Piece of advice

54:45 Question to ponder

55:00 Resources

--- [ 2. LINKS ] ---

• https://www.linkedin.com/in/tashwillcocks/
• https://www.instagram.com/tashwillcocks
• https://bsky.app/profile/tashwillcocks.bsky.social

Resources:

• Radical Candor (Book)
• Radical Candor (Podcast)
• Turn the Ship around - Book
• Ladder of leadership 
• MindSpring Presents: "Greatness" by David Marquet
• Johari Window
• Giving and receiving feedback - cards
• Susan Wheelan Team Development
• Drama and Empowerment Triangle
• Scott Berkun - Why Design is hard

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When advice goes wrong...

My daughter is an avid soccer player.

On a recent cold and dark Saturday morning, I was standing on the sideline cheering her on at a match - the priceless perks of being a dad.

At some point, the opposing team coach was shouting to their players, "You need to defend better!"

And all I could think to myself at that moment was, "That's terrible advice."

Not because they were defending well - rather the opposite.

But, I mean, "defend better" - would you know what you're supposed to do?

Should I press higher, get closer to the attacker, make more forward runs?

This type of advice often just leads to more confusion and coordination problems.

Now, in design, we also get this type of well-intended but counter-productive advice all too often.

Want a classic example?

How about "designers need to understand business"?

No sh*t Sherlock.

We hear this ALL the time.

Very rarely does someone go beyond the surface and get specific about what "understanding business" actually means.

Fortunately for us, we have someone on the Show today who does - Ryan Scott.

Ryan has an impressive track record in design, but he also holds an MBA degree.

This combination is quite unique and gives him the ability to look at challenges from different perspectives with empathy for both sides.

So in this episode, we unpack what it actually takes to bridge the gap between business and design.

You'll be surprised to hear how many skills you already have to make this crossover successfully.

It's not easy, but it's not as hard or distant as you might think, either. MBA degree not required.

So, if you've ever felt frustrated by the lack of respect and appreciation for design from "the business side," this conversation might just hold the clue on how you can turn that around.

I've always said that designers can be some of the best salespeople.

It's really time that we start using this power to our advantage.

Because we are all selling already, every single day.

Enjoy and keep making a positive impact!

~ Marc

--- [ 1. GUIDE ] ---

00:00 Welcome to episode 222

03:00 Broad Designer Role

05:00 Business vs. Users

07:30 Why an MBA?

11:00 Business for Designers

14:00 People Skills & Clout

15:30 Design Gaslighting

21:00 Joining the Conversation

22:30 The Gap

32:00 Management-Led Design

34:00 Shaping Your Perspective

36:00 Sales & Brand

38:00 Biggest Roadblock

41:30 Reframing Our Identity

46:15 Adapting to the System

48:45 Imposter Syndrome

51:45 Proving Your Impact

54:00 Competitive Analysis

56:30 Design Career Path

1:01:00 Question to Ponder

1:02:15 Resources

--- [ 2. LINKS ] ---

• https://www.linkedin.com/in/ryanscottcreative/
• How to win friends and influence people by Dale Carnegie (book) - https://a.co/d/0VTXtJ3
• 48 laws of power by Robert Greene (book) - https://a.co/d/ftLLRom
• https://www.acceleratedesign.com/
• Maven Learning - https://maven.com/ryan-scott

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AI won't take over your job...

An 8-year-old girl with AI will!

Don't believe me? Check ou this video which was making the rounds on LinkedIn a while ago.

In the video a young girl coding a Harry Potter quiz game with the help of AI. In a matter of minutes.

It's a funny and striking example of where things are heading – or should I say, where they already are.

It'd be naive to think service design won't be affected.

But the current conversations about AI's impact often lack depth, nuance, and practical examples.

We don't seem to get much further than: "AI is good" or "AI is bad."

What are we even talking about when we say "AI"? We need to unpack it. Go beyond the surface.

Fortunately, our guest for this episode has done some of the heavy lifting for us.

As an educator at one of the leading design institutes, Pablo Fernández Vallejo has to live in the future.

He's always thinking about the skills future professionals will need in 4 years' time when they graduate. And of course, being able to make full use of AI is high on the list right now.

So in this episode, we sit down and talk about big questions like: Do we need to become AI experts ourselves, or should we focus on further developing our critical thinking skills? What are the risks and opportunities of bringing AI into the design process? What are the tasks that we can safely outsource to AI and which ones should we be more careful with.

So, whether you're an AI skeptic or optimist, I feel this conversation will challenge your thinking and help you make more informed decisions moving ahead.

A thought-provoking question in this episode is what will happen to our professional identities when AI starts to blur the boundaries between disciplines. It's not a question of if it will happen, but how quickly.

Curious to hear your thoughts, so make sure to leave a comment on below.

Enjoy and keep making a positive impact.

~ Marc

--- [ 1. GUIDE ] ---

00:00 Welcome to Episode 221

04:00 Grandparents' influence on AI perspective

06:00 Over-represented large language models

08:30 AI with a bias

11:00 Designing at the age of AI

14:00 Current state of designing with AI

17:30 Automation vs. Augmentation

19:30 AI’s Impact on Students

26:30 AI Possibilities vs. Limits

29:00 AI & Expertise Balance

30:00 Calculator analogy

32:30 AI & Service Commoditization

35:00 How AI impacts non-digital services

38:00 AI power dynamics

38:30 Service design for ai

42:30 AI as an active participant

44:30 Gaps in the society

47:15 Questions we should be asking

53:00 Sustainability & AI

55:00 Learning about past mistakes

57:00 Tech development and society conversation

59:30 The future we can build

1:00:40 Resources

1:02:00 Questions to ponder

--- [ 2. LINKS ] ---

• https://www.linkedin.com/in/pablofernandezvallejo
• Co-Intelligence: Living and Working with AI by Ethan Mollick (Book)
• Pablo's talk on Impact of AI in Service Design
• Pablo's post-SDGC article on the state of the conversation
• https://www.fernandezvallejo.com/

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I crossed a line...

Recently, while working on redesigning our online community platform, my excitement got the better of me. I dove headfirst into prototyping a few things in the backend system.

"How hard could it be, right?" (Keep this line in mind throughout the rest of the email.)

Sure, I know a thing or two about programming, and if everything else fails, there's always AI to help out, right?

Well, the honest conclusion a few days later, when we brought in a true expert developer, was that I had no clue what I was doing.

Before the developer could implement the updates properly, we had to undo all the changes I had made. So we lost time, not once, but twice.

The silly thing is, this seems to be a habit I can't shake.

And I see it a lot around me as well: saying yes to challenges that are better left to experts.

Of course, there are many situations where being confident and experimental gets things done.

Instead of waiting and debating, we build a prototype and iterate from there.

Frankly, this approach is encouraged and celebrated in our design process.

But... there's a major pitfall.

In the story above, the cost of my "how hard can it be?" approach was lost time.

That's unfortunate but not something that will cause any major, long-term damage.

Now, imagine working in a context where the stakes are much higher.

Where you're intervening in people's lives. Where your solutions impact the well-being of communities. Where your approach has the potential to reduce—or increase—systemic inequalities.

KA McKercher, our guest in this episode, argues that in those scenarios, we can't just rush in and take on every project that comes our way.

Because when we do, and we go in with a beginner's mindset, chances are high that we might end up causing actual harm to the people who need help the most.

In those situations, losing time on a project is the least of your worries. There are clearly much bigger stakes at play.

So the tough question becomes: How do we know which challenges are a good fit for our skillset and which ones should we say no to?

Especially when we want to do good and contribute to a positive outcome in those high-stakes challenges.

Having the self-awareness to know you limits and limitations is a sign of maturity and professionalism.

If you care about growing your self-awareness, this is a conversation you don't want to miss.

--- [ 1. GUIDE ] ---

00:00 Welcome to Episode 220

04:00 Good intentions are not enough

06:30 Why this matters

09:00 Lived experience aligning to design

12:30 What's good enough?

14:30 What is co-facilitation

16:30 Emotional curiosity

20:30 Being conscious of the water

27:00 What to do

30:30 Is it a yes or no?

35:00 Intentions

38:30 What's within the scope

41:00 Material based practices

45:30 Impostor syndrome

48:30 Reviews on the article

50:00 Hoping the conversation evolves

52:00 When it's out of your scope

54:30 When to step away

58:00 Question to ponder

--- [ 2. LINKS ] ---

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You've never heard this on the Show before...

I'm referring to a design tool that most people disregard, even laugh about when they first hear about it.

They say it's childish, something you can't take seriously in a professional context.

But as you'll hear in today's conversation, this tool holds immense power.

Not only that, it helps you better align with your true self and what you truly want to contribute to the world.

And the best thing? You already have this tool in your possession. We all do.

So, what is this magical tool?

It's your dreams.

Now, I know what you're thinking. Dreams, really?!

But hear me out, it's actually not that crazy.

Why do we always talk about design thinking and design doing, and not about design dreaming?

If anything, I'd argue that the times we live in demand we dream more to envision a better future.

Our amazing guest, Courtney Morgan, helps us tap into the power of our dreams.

She shares practical examples of the power of collective dreaming.

We address the misconceptions around dreaming and discuss how to get people to tap into and share their dreams in a design process.

You'll notice that the conversation doesn't begin with dreams, but we naturally gravitate in that direction and fall down the rabbit hole.

So, if you want to go beyond the usual design tools and methods and tap into something truly transformative... make sure you don't miss this episode.

A simple practice to become more aware of your dreams is to start writing them down. This is what I've incorporated into my morning routine. Very curious to see what effects this will have in a few months.

Enjoy and keep making a positive impact.

~ Marc

--- [ 1. GUIDE ] ---

00:00 Welcome to episode 219

03:30 Defining "one percent"

05:00 Focus of the 1%

13:00 Non-profit & community

13:50 Importance of lived experiences in work

17:00 Building trust first

18:30 What happens with lack of trust

21:30 Designer vs Community member role

24:00 A "World Creator" role

26:30 5 years ago vs today

30:30 What is efficiency?

33:00 What does good look like

34:30 Patience and her son

36:30 The role of dreaming

39:00 Courtney's dream

41:00 How we can become better dreamers

43:30 Prejudice against collective dreaming

47:30 Unsurppressing dreams

54:00 Advice she wished someone told her

59:30 Question to ponder

--- [ 2. LINKS ] ---

--- [ 3. CIRCLE ] ---

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This one is a bit different...

Not the usual interview that you're used to.

In this episode, you'll actually hear me answering the questions.

Why? Well, it's become a bit of a tradition to start the year by reflecting on the lessons learned while building the Circle community.

The Circle started 3.5 years ago as an idea to see what would happen if we created a safe space for in-house service design professionals to connect and share regularly.

Today, it's grown to a healthy size with members from companies across the globe and in almost any industry you can imagine — from big tech to church organizations (I kid you not!). Service design professionals are everywhere these days.

I'm very grateful for where the community is today, but it certainly hasn't been a straight line up.

Designing a service (which is essentially what our community is) for service designers is quite hard, who would have thought? ;)

So, for this episode, I sat down with Ru Butler who's one of our Circle Council members to discuss the biggest wins, challenges, and ambitions for the coming year.

Even if you're not working in-house, I think you'll still enjoy this behind-the-scenes look at how we're thinking about and trying to design our community.

I'd love to hear what you think of this episode format. Would you like to hear it more often? How could we make it better? Any other feedback is welcome, too.

Send me a message or reach out on LinkedIn.

Happy 2025 and take care,

Marc

--- [ 1. GUIDE ] ---

00:00 The Circle 2024 Special episode

03:00 Who is Ru

04:30 What stood out last year

09:30 Marc's key motivations

13:00 Ru's Circle Highlights: 1-on-1s

17:30 Benefits of 1-on-1s: accountability

19:00 Leading the Circle community

24:30 Favorite sessios in 2024

31:00 The community's growth

37:00 The importance of community

43:00 2025 Vision and The Loop

46:00 The follow-through

48:30 Seasons for the Circle 2025

54:00 2025 Goals

58:00 For the Self-Doubting Designers

--- [ 2. LINKS ] ---

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First of all, I want to wish you a very happy 2025.

We're starting the new year with a bang.

Journey Management has been a hot topic for the last two years, and for good reason.

The shift from mapping to management might seem small, but it's a major change in how we and our clients approach things.

If you've been following the Show for a while, you know we are keeping up with these developments as they unfold.

So, I thought it would be great to invite a good friend and long-time partner of the Show, Jochem van der Veer, back to kick 2025 off with some predictions.

As CEO of TheyDo, Jochem is building one of the most innovative companies in this space. So I think it's fair to say that he has a front-row seat to how companies are adopting (or not) Journey Management.

In this conversation, we discuss how journey management has evolved, the challenges of scaling it, which organizations are succeeding, and what's next (including AI's influence).

Oh, and we announce a new conference...

Join us for a great episode that's going to give you a head start on your Journey Management journey this year.

What are YOUR predictions for this year? Leave a comment on YouTube (or Spotify). It'll be fun to revisit them next year 🙂

Enjoy the conversation, and once again Happy 2025!

Take care,

~ Marc

--- [ 1. GUIDE ] ---

00:00 Welcome to episode 218

05:00 Looking back at the previous episode

06:45 Market shifts

09:00 Churn discussion

13:45 What's changed in TheyDo

15:45 Unexpected design challenges

19:30 Journey Management cornerstones

21:00 Automating everything

25:00 Jochem's Journey Management view

29:00 Journey as a tool

33:15 Cross-Functional challenges

36:00 Prioritization rituals

39:30 Customer alignment

45:00 Team adoption patterns

48:30 Specific problem solving

50:00 Industry roadblock

53:30 2026 hopes

54:30 Upcoming Conference

1:02:00 Jochem's 2025 outlook

1:03:00 Chat interface

1:07:00 Question to ponder

--- [ 2. LINKS ] ---

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There's a problem with the current design process that often goes unnoticed...

A problem that can lead to less-than-ideal outcomes or, even worse, harm certain communities.

To understand this, we must acknowledge our huge responsibility as design professionals. We're often the only ones advocating for our users' needs, the voice of those who aren't in the room.

It's a privilege we shouldn't take lightly.

We make decisions, and judgment calls for the people we're designing for. Of course, we do our best with the best intentions, but we always will fall short.

Why? Because we aren't the users. We don't live their lives or experience their struggles.

Sure, let there be no doubt: having someone advocate for users is a good start, but it's not enough.

We can do better; we must do better.

Our guest, ​Sloan Leo Cowan​, helps us see what "better" looks like.

The key is to move away from "designing for" or even "designing with" users and move towards "designing by" them. It means giving up control and power. Sound impossible?

Sloan Leo shares practical examples of how they've achieved this in their work.

This episode will show you a way forward if you care about creating more inclusive and equitable work.

Stop designing WITH your users! There is a better way.

As you'll hear, Sloan Leo's perspective on design challenges the status quo. We really need this to push the boundaries of design and ensure it stays relevant.

Keep making a positive impact!

Take care,

~ Marc

--- [ 1. GUIDE ] ---

00:00 Welcome to Episode 217

04:00 Sloan's social sector journey

08:15 Defining Community?

10:15 Service design "habits" (issues)

12:45 Neutrality in Interpretation

15:15 Facilitator vs. Interpreter Roles

18:45 Facilitating towards beliefs

19:30 Power Dynamics in Facilitation

21:15 Binary thinking in service design

26:45 Issue: Persona Development & Gender

31:45 Origins of Community Design Issues

36:00 How to approach the large scale

38:15 Open source approach

40:30 The challenges for service designers

41:45 Benefits for Communities and Designers

43:45 Advice for Aspiring Designers

47:15 Recommended Resources

51:45 Proudest Achievements

54:15 Keys to Success

56:45 Additional Resources

57:30 Questions for Reflection

--- [ 2. LINKS ] ---

Pronouns they/he

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There is no service design...

Without high-quality research.

Sure, we all know that.

But doing good research is hard.

Kate Towsey, often called the inventor of the ResearchOps field, can certainly attest to this.

If you're a dedicated listener of the show, you might remember Kate from our conversation about a year ago where she shared that she was writing a book.

Well, that book, titled "Research that Scales", has officially been published!

And with a 4.9/5 rating on Amazon, it seems to have struck a chord with readers.

Of course, we had to get Kate back on the show to discuss it.

In this conversation we delve into topics like:

And as always, that's just the tip of the iceberg.

It's hard to imagine a service design professional who wouldn't be interested in the topics we cover in this episode.

Good research isn't just a nice-to-have; it's a must.

Without giving away too many spoilers, I found it fascinating that it's not actually research that you need to (or can) scale, but something else. Something that we as a community are pretty good at.

Can you guess what it is?

Enjoy and keep making a positive impact!

~ Marc

--- [ 1. GUIDE ] ---

00:00 Welcome to Episode 216

03:00 Quick overview about scaling research

04:00 Why she wrote the book

09:30 Pandemic's impact on the book

13:00 Research rabbit hole

15:00 Unscalable Research: What to Avoid

18:30 What is enough research?

22:00 The problem she saw

25:00 The main bottlenecks

27:45 Libriarian's role in making the change

31:00 How the process work

33:00 Knowledge as a network vs tree

35:30 Maximizing efficient use of library

39:00 Designing the system

41:00 Knowledge vs. Learning: Value Proposition

43:00 Cost center vs value center

47:00 AI and Research: A Synergistic Future

49:00 Cost of scaling: A Trade-off

51:00 Strategic approach to scaling

53:00 How to know when to scale

54:30 Her readers insights

56:00 Upcoming masterclasses

58:00 Resources

58:30 Food for thought

--- [ 2. LINKS ] ---

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