Static Radio by Bob LeMent

February 06, 2025 A Conversation with William from User Friendly

William from User Friendly stops by to discuss how the show started, where it’s going, and, of course, various rabbit holes along the way.

User Friendly

https://youtube.com/live/hY8kANKUteE

Bad AI Transcript

Hey, everybody, and welcome to this conversation with, would you go by Bill? I have William here. So William from UserFriendly. William or Bill. I mean, either way, people call me worse, so either helps, but usually Bill. But Bill, okay. So Bill from UserFriendly. And I was going to butcher your last name here. Is it, would I say Sickens or Sykens? No, it’s Sickens. You got it spot on. Oh, okay. Because sometimes whenever you have the, you know, Sometimes people have a long vowel on their name for whatever reason. So I didn’t want to get it wrong. No worries. Spot on. But Bill has a program called User Friendly, which you can find here at userfriendlyshow.com. It’s also on the radio in Portland and Seattle. Am I right? That’s correct. Yeah.
Oh, wow. So that was just out of memory. Go figure. I should have looked that up beforehand, but I didn’t. So I was just yanking it out of my head. No worries. You had it right. So why look it up? That’s right. So but I’ve been on Bill’s show a few times and I thought, would it be fun to sit down and talk a little bit about his journey to doing these kind of things? So my first question, Bill, would be user friendly. How did it start? Well, you know, it’s kind of a fun story. We started back in 2013. So this is our 12th year doing the show. And the funny thing about it is, is this whole thing started in my kitchen. At the time, I lived in Reno, Nevada, and we would have friends over every week to do tabletop role playing. And one night we got done and, you know, somebody said this would make a good
topic for doing a podcast at the time, but podcasting was really a new thing back in the day. So it’s like, well, okay, well, you know, we’ll think about it. And then I worked in the, you know, business community and everything like that. And kind of threw the idea around and had one of the local radio stations come back and say, Hey, well, if you want to do technology at the time, that’s what it was. We would love to give you a go. So a few weeks later, I end up with a schedule and we’re on the air on a very small station. But still, you know, it’s where we started. Half hour format at the time. And I think we did eight or nine episodes of that. And that was how we got started. So on the air in Reno? In Reno, yeah. Yeah. At the time. Oh, that’s cool. So you were talking about role playing game and then you’re saying that
but how did you get from role-playing games into technology as a general thing? Cause it seems, I mean, there’s some connection there, but it’s not direct. Oh, it’s not even indirect. I mean, I guess today you could argue a connection maybe with some of the tools and stuff, but at the time, no, it was definitely very much two different things. And that’s why it’s also a little bit odd how that came into being. So a little bit of a background on that. I’ve since ago, 1998 have run a technology company and, um, as a career as a software engineer and do some things like that in addition to our show. So that’s where the technology end of it came from. That’s what I was kind of known for in the area. But it was and is a very niche audience. There’s a lot of people that are interested in technology, but it is very specific. And in today’s world, doing a podcast, it would work a lot better just because anybody around the world that is interested can listen that you’re not limited to who happens to tune in on the air that week.
Right. But what happened is, is like i say, we’re new role-playing games and, uh, on a hobby side, do cosplay and go to the comic cons and all this kind of stuff. And we were at a comic-con that was put on at the time by a steve wozniak in san Jose, California. Um, that was a comic-con that combined pop culture and technology. So our team decided if apple can do it, so can we. And at the time, you know i mean yeah of course why not go with the winners? Right. Yeah. So, That’s what Microsoft said for the Zune. The what? No, I’m kidding. Yes. There have been a few things like that out there. But in this case, you know, and this isn’t the Apple Lisa either, if you’ve ever heard of that. You know, but it was an idea to be able to blend the two together. And they wanted us to go to an hour format at the time. And so I proposed it. And let’s give it a go and give it a try. And it worked quite well. So that’s what we’ve been doing since then.
So we covered both topics. And as time has gone by, they have blended a lot more together. So the role playing gaming side of it certainly can include video games and all of that type of a thing. And the technology side of that’s pretty self-explanatory. But having the two together has really benefited. I think our audience likes it a lot better. And I get that because our numbers went up when we started doing that. And it’s a lot more enjoyable to do because there’s a lot more material to be able to pull from to present. Right, yeah, so you have a bigger pool, right? Can I ask, what game were you playing? Were you playing Dungeons & Dragons or was it a different role? Of course it was Dungeons & Dragons for everybody, right? Well, there’s a lot of other ones, so it could have been something else. Yeah, and I footnote that. I actually do play a lot of different games, but at the time it was Dungeons & Dragons specifically.
And we had just the one technology blend is we had gotten this app on our smart speaker. I won’t say the name to activate everybody’s here, but our smart speaker and that would actually do dice rolls and give you some of the rules back. So we were playing with that. And that’s part of what came into this could be a good idea. So there was a little bit of technology, very early version of it, but yeah. Yeah. Oh, that’s cool though. That’s so fun that you’re just kind of, you’re like, Hey, why don’t we do this? And then you just, Go and do it. But it sounds like as far as your background, though, you’re a bit entrepreneurial, I’m guessing. So you said software. And so are you the boss? Yeah. Oh, yeah. And like I say, I do both sides of it. If I attempted to live on what I did get on doing the show, not so much now, but in the beginning, I certainly would have been in a very different situation. So I needed to have both. But that’s where I started.
my career was, you know, doing software design. Originally, we had a store in a mall in Reno that sold hardware, and that’s where that started. And then kind of morphed out of that, and over the years, dropped the hardware part of it, just went to software, and now we do software robotics. But that end of it definitely gave a lot of exposure to the technology side of things. And a lot of people don’t talk about it well. So one of the things we seem to be able to do is take subjects that were normally in the clouds and explain it and discuss it in a way where that everybody could relate to it and understand what it was. And that is really what kind of keyed into all of this in the very beginning. Oh, yeah. So exactly. I think everybody gets, you know, my guess is, you know, just from, you know, my knowledge base, they’re like, oh, talk to Bill. He’ll fix your computer for you. And then you became that guy, right? So you’re the guy that knows these answers and everybody kind of comes to you and does that. But
It’s not necessarily all their questions aren’t overly complicated. It’s just they just don’t click with it, right? But, yeah, bringing it to the masses like that I think is a very good thing. I mean, at this point, we’re all going in that direction. I do find it funny, though, Bill, that so I have children, and so I’ve been involved in technology research. from the early days when you mentioned Lisa, yes, from even earlier than Lisa. But it seems like today’s kids or even young people, whatever you want to say, don’t have the same immersion. So I was totally immersed in all this because it was all happening, right? So everything was coming up. Everything was happening. I was curious and so forth. But now it seems like everybody’s more, and kind of reflects your show, a user, right? So they don’t get into the background of things. If it doesn’t work, then they don’t think about it. Do you find that’s the case now? Yeah, absolutely. And it’s a change that we’ve seen just kind of in the industry, really. Because back in what you’re talking about, Apple, Lisa, and I started with things like 8-bit Atari computers and Commodore 64 and all of that. Yeah.
You were encouraged in that time that you got the computer, you figured out how to plug it in and turn it on, and you got a ready prompt. And if you didn’t know what to do with it, it didn’t do anything, right? Right, exactly. You had to program it. How to program it, how to modify it. All these kind of things were encouraged. You look at the original Apple IIs and those type of things, the same thing. Now, fast forward to now, and it’s like the hardware is being designed from a standpoint that they don’t want you to touch it. And so it does change very much. how people look at and deal with things. I think the other side of it too, is back in that time period, having even a computer at home and some of these things was not the norm. And now today we all carry one in our pocket and it’s just part of life. And it doesn’t really matter what industry you work in or anything, you’re gonna be dealing with technology. So it’s just kind of part of the world and you just deal with it. So yes, it is a fundamental change in the way that people interact and work with these things.
And over the years, our shows kind of followed that because a lot at the very beginning, you know, and I’m sure like you, a lot of our programming is based on the feedback from our listeners and that type of a thing. And the questions have changed from, oh, I have, you know, this and I’m trying to figure out how to do this. How do I, you know, repair it or that kind of a situation to, well, the old one broke and I threw it away. What do you recommend buying? I mean, that is how that has changed. And it is a big difference. The disposable society. Yeah. In a way. Yeah. I always find it interesting because I have two kids. One is more interested in the background of things and so forth, and one isn’t. If it’s working great and they can use it really well and use it better than me, I mean, they’re into the interface, right? They’re into the interface of things and how to shortcut that, but they don’t really have any interest in how it works. It just works, and as long as it’s working, they’re fantastic with it.
So yeah, I do find that interesting. Just an aside here, my first computer was a TI-99-4A. Oh, wow. Okay. So yeah, very, very akin to the Commodore 64. And I was, you know, I actually bought it myself, which is a whole other thing. But the very, you know, very different times back then with those kind of things it had a cartridge thing so it was kind of a weird hybrid of stuff if you think look at the Texas Instruments version of things but very interesting nonetheless but on so on your show then you’re evolving with your audience so that you’re you know not doing IRQs or anything like that in the background you’re just talking about how things work and how you can utilize them best for yourself I’m guessing
Yeah, it’s a very conversational style. And we’ve always done it that way, just because it seems like that’s what people enjoy. And that was the easiest way to put it together. And it’s worked quite well. So exactly as you say, people will ask their questions. We answer them on the air. Sometimes we invite our guests that way. Certainly do the programming from that. And then we look at topics that are relevant to this hack or that problem or this new piece of hardware, that kind of a thing, and generally cover that type of stuff a little bit. And it’s just an amalgamation of all of those different things. And it changes, I mean, what’s relevant changes based on where we are in time. Two years ago, very few people have heard of AI. Now it’s the rage, you know, that kind of thing. So it’s, you know, it’s kind of fun too, because if you look back with the longevity of it and listen to some of the coverages of technology in, you know, 2015, this is brand new and, you know, state of the art and that kind of a thing. And I’m thinking, you know, I think I might still have that in the back of a drawer somewhere. Yeah.
Yeah, no kidding. Storage was always my thing because it’s like we had the zip drive, jazz drive. They’re all based off of a floppy. And then now, of course, we don’t have any kind of moving storage anymore. Everything’s solid state storage. And, you know, next will be, what is it, quartz crystals or something where they’re doing things with that. But so the… As you’re going on this journey, right, so you start to do the podcast in 13, what kind of, obviously it’s an outlet for you, but why did you say, you know, yeah, we need to go this route? You did the radio show first, I’m guessing, and then you transitioned it to be a podcast, it sounds like. Is that correct? Yeah, basically what started it really, because, you know, somebody’s got to pay for all this, right? Yeah.
Well, that’s generally you. You pay for it. Yeah, unfortunately, right. But no, the initial justification from that standpoint and what really drove it was as a way to promote the programming business. So you have on air and do the tech expert thing and all that kind of stuff. And what really pushed it and what was our first episode was Google Glass. Oh, yeah. That period, the world was going to be taken over by this. And living in Nevada, the big concern was that you could take it into the casino and cheat. And so it’s like, okay. Yeah, you could count cards, right? Because you could see every card. Exactly. At least that was the fear. And at that period, the casinos were very dependent on the property, but you couldn’t use your phone on the casino floor in some places and stuff like that. And it was a big concern. Nowadays, nobody cares just because it’s…
turned out to not be a problem but in that period you had this four thousand dollar plus item that nobody knew what it was and here it is that uh we’re everybody’s you know banning it so what is it so that was the first episode we talked about that and that’s really where everything started initially and then we kind of went from there and then they took the uh show and put it on the local npr station some other things like that oh cool uh which was kind of cool and you know so uh So, yeah, but the starting of this was meant to be kind of a promotional tool for the computer business. And to this day, we still have that in the header, although I would say the reason we do it and have done it for the majority of the time is out of enjoyment. I love working with people. I love the feedback we get from our listeners. And I love being able to have that kind of interaction and be able to talk about something that is interesting to a lot of people. Yeah. So, yeah.
Interesting you mentioned Google Glass because just as a kind of with podcasting. So podcasting basically entered its 21st year, I suppose. 2004-ish was podcasting. The term was coined and so forth in the RSS enclosure. So that’s been 21 years. So Google Glass would be, you said, 2013. So then that means… in 2033 we should see it everywhere so if you look at a 20-year cycle if that’s the case then then the technology is introduced and now it has to kind of like fester and and so forth in the background and then it’ll come forward and be everywhere kind of like podcasting because back in 2013 even then so that wasn’t the the heyday i’d say that was one of the um uh i always call it the, uh,
uh, first big bump is 2011 for podcasting. So 2004 happened, came onto the scene, 2011 ish. It, it came, you know, to more people and now it’s everywhere in, uh, in 2020 essentially was the, the next wave. So, um, do you look at things like that since you’ve been dealing with technology for so long in, in waves? And do you see any kind of patterns like that, um, emerging in any other spaces that you can think of over the years? Well, what you’re talking about with the idea of Google Glass and it perpetuating into things is spot on. In fact, there is a thing called Moore’s Law that talks about this kind of stuff, and it defines how technology will progress and basically the direction it goes. And so far since that was coined at Intel, I believe in the 50s, it has…
proven to be the case and kind of governing. And it’s basically what you just said is you have something that starts here and it proliferates and then you eventually get there. Now, as a point on the google Glass, I don’t know if we’re going to see that specific product, but you look at this year and we’re starting to see hud glasses, which is basically the same thing. And we’ve had smart glasses for a while. I mean, I even use them to record right now. That’s how i do my headset. But the actual ones that have video and those kind of things in them are starting to get on the market. So that’s right spot on. I think It’s a new technology now. We’ll see it going that direction in the future. And with things like podcasting, too, just to kind of speak to that a little bit, it is very interesting to see how that has evolved. Because when we started in 2013, it’s like, oh, you might do a podcast, but that was not something. You’re on the air. That’s what you do, right? And it has flip-flopped, and it has gotten to a point now. In 2020, the COVID era was really what pushed, I think, a lot of this stuff over the edge.
But we’re still on the air, but 90% of our listeners listen to the podcast. The additional 10%, about 9%, listen to the stream from the various radio stations, and maybe 1% actually tune it in on a radio somewhere, you know? Right. Yeah, it’s flipped, right? So over this last, I’d say, five to seven years, it’s totally flipped, which is really quite interesting to think about. I mean, it is kind of mind-boggling, especially if, you know… you and I both have our foot firmly in terrestrial communication for our, you know, younger days to see that this thing has really flopped over and, and digital communication, podcasting and so forth is really the, the, you know, the winner right now, this is what’s happening. This is what it is. There’s, there’s not, you know, the terrestrial side of things is, is not, you know, innovating, uh, like the, the digital side of things is. And, and I think, uh,
Well, actually, what do you think as far as that goes? I mean, should we just turn them all off? I mean, what’s the thought for radio stations? I think there is also an attitude towards what defines that. As far as radio stations go, I think they still have their place. But the delivery of digital media has become so much easier and more available in recent years. It used to be if you drove your car, you had a CD or you listened to the radio. And the idea of streaming music from your phone to the car stereo radio was not something you would have done. And that’s come into play in the last five years or so. And now everybody does it, you know? So that makes a huge difference. But the other thing of it is, is also looking at where one is in the world. I know that we’re working, the show is in the UK now in some places, and I’ve been learning about that. And their radio, I don’t think they even have AM anymore. They do have FM in the conventional sense, but they have a thing called DAB or DAB Plus as it is now.
which is digital audio broadcast. So it’s basically a terrestrial way of getting a radio signal, but it has all the features of digital. So that’s a little bit different. And that’s not something that we really have here in the States, at least not an equivalent. Right. So, you know, a thing called HD radio for a while, which was kind of similar, but not quite, I think. Yeah. It didn’t, it didn’t, I don’t know. It wasn’t adopted in the same way. And HD radio actually does still exist. I, have a tuner, I think on my car radio for that, but it’s not something that it’s just not something that if I’m not going to get in the car and go, Oh, I’m going to listen to the HD radio today. No, I’m either going to stream or use a USB stick. I mean, that’s how you do it now. And at least here. Yeah, no. Yeah. And, and, and satellite was a whole thing for a really short amount of time. And I mean, it’s still in existence and so forth, but I don’t think other than, um,
folks who are really into it for some, you know, that kind of niche kind of thing, or people who travel great distances, I think, are really the satellite people at this point. And there’s not like a big mass audience for satellite radio so much either anymore. I guess with it all going like this, to me, it’s interesting because it’s, I’m getting into kind of maybe legal interesting territory. So you’re dealing with FCC because you’re on the regular radio. FCC is the Federal Communications Commission that governs all television radio stations and frequencies for the government, right? So FCC is much different than the internet because there’s no FCC of the internet so far. And so do you think that something’s going to happen in that direction as we move forward? Because…
You know, there was a reason they put the FCC into existence. And that reason online now, you know, could still be there if you think about it, because it’s the people’s airwaves. But whenever you’re talking about the Internet, you know, you could say it’s the people’s Internet. What’s your thoughts on that? Well, you know, and I think what we need to look at for something like that is to look at this thing, if you remember it, called cable television, I believe. Yeah. But when you look at it, there was different layers of regulation. You didn’t have the restrictions in certain aspects of that that you did on over-the-air broadcasts. The idea being is that you have a choice to subscribe and turn it on and off and that kind of a thing. If it’s over-the-air, everybody can get to it. And I think in many ways, the internet is looking the same way. They do have some regulation. For example, if you are on YouTube, you have to define whether your videos are targeted to children. And if they are, do certain things. And you have to identify…
what that is, and there are certain things like that. But you’re also looking at a situation that it would be much, much harder to put regulation like that because cable television over the air radio television, whatever the case may be, originated from a certain point, whether that was your radio or television station or your cable provider or satellite provider, that kind of a thing. The internet, you can originate from anywhere in the world, and there’s no way to really block or change that, so If the FCC was to attempt to regulate Internet broadcasts or narrowcast is what they’re technically called in the United States, how would they really be able to enforce that? And how would they be able to enforce it with anybody that is outside of the country? I mean, we can’t even seem to get rid of the robocalls that are working that way, much less taking on the whole Internet. Right. So, you know, I think that we do have if you think about China and their restrictions on their Internet, they do a pretty good job of
of keeping things out of China they don’t want in China. And oddly enough, TikTok is an example of America keeping things from China out of America for at least a short period of time recently in that. But I think you’re alluding to self-regulation as the way to go because that’s what YouTube is doing. They’re self-regulating. They’re saying, we’re going to put some things in place so that we don’t need government involvement. And I think a lot of the big companies, do that, I mean, for the most part. I mean, obviously it’s very difficult. It’s incredibly difficult given the situations online and the fact that things can be generated so easily and quickly that you can’t fend off the hordes forever. Absolutely. And the other thing is the sure availability of material. There are many content creators, many companies that do different things.
So it isn’t restricted to a broadcast schedule on a radio station. It’s simultaneous that there are, I think, in the millions of streams or something right now. I’d have to look up the number, but it’s some huge amount like that that you can get to at any one time. So that changes it. And yeah, China is doing a good job of blocking things. Russia is trying to do the same thing. But at the end of the day, that closes down all of the other aspects. And do we really want to sit and deal with something like that? And even if we did, does it actually work? Both countries, if you have a VPN, you can get around those firewalls and get to the open internet. The only way to completely cut it off would be to have a restricted network that doesn’t attach to anything else or something like that, which has been toyed with. But it does restrict it to a point where it’s almost not usable anymore. So you’ve got to balance these different things. And as far as self-regulation goes, yeah, the reputable broadcasters and companies do it.
Most social media sites regulate to some extent. Your YouTube, like you just mentioned, and platforms like that have certain things. One of the issues we had with that is actually some of the terminology will demonetize or hide your videos. They don’t like certain terms. So if we are working with something on a video game console, like a light zapper, We have to refer to that as a wireless hole punch because if you use the other words, they will block your show. Right. Have you learned that by trial and error? Yes, by trial and error definitely and figuring out what was actually going on. And the thing of videos is there’s a very valid reason for that in some ways. But again, there’s so much content that they can’t have a human sit there and go, okay, this is talking about an accessory for a video game console or something like that versus this is talking about someone –
wanting to commit a crime or do something horrible. So the algorithm just shuts it down completely. And, you know, but I don’t know that there would be another way to do it, really. Not that wouldn’t be extremely expensive and probably over the top for even being able to implement. Yeah. Well, I mean, so I’m guessing at this point, you’ve got your FCC license then, right? So you’re licensed to be on the air? Yeah. Through our radio station. Through your radio station. Yeah, so that’s handled. We have a network that syndicates us and all that kind of thing, and they handle the legal aspect of it. Okay. Well, so let’s get – I kind of got far afield with my questions there, but let’s come back to user-friendly. And so you’ve been doing this for a while now, obviously, and producing content and so forth. So where do you – like do you have –
roadmap for yourself like for the next five years? I mean, obviously you have to change with the trends, but is there some goals in mind that you’re trying to reach? Well, first of all, the shock and surprise that they renewed our contract for another three years was one. Good for you. Congratulations. I say that tongue in cheek too. I mean, you know, it’s been a great thing, but usually, you know, time goes by and things do get stale, but we have the opportunity because of the content that we cover to to always have something fresh to bring to the table. And I think that helps with being able to keep things relevant. And as far as going down the next five years, one of the things that we definitely are working on, uh, that we started two years ago, we actually two years ago had a tragedy in that one of our original hosts passed away unexpectedly and, um, totally, you know, totally out there at that time. It’s like, okay, what are we going to do? Are we going to even keep going? And,
One of the other people that had been with us since the beginning, Bill Snodgrass, stepped up to take his position. He’s our producer, and now he also does the on-air spots. So that stopped us with a little bit of the progression of new things at the time just to kind of regroup. But we’re getting to a point now where we are back to that. And one of the big things is to add a video aspect. So being on the radio and originally being just a podcast, that wasn’t something that was even considered. And still being on the radio, obviously, it isn’t. But as far as new media is concerned, you definitely people would like to see that. I don’t know why people want to see my face, but if they do well, hey, you know. But the thing of it is, at the end of the day, I think that that will bring a little bit more of a rich content to what we’re able to do. And what that will end up doing, though, is we’ll have probably for the first time a production that’s for on air and something that’s a little bit different for online.
focused around the same topics every week, but we’ll be able to do more just with video because we’ll be able to have that aspect of it that we wouldn’t on the radio. Plus, podcasts and vodcasts and all that kind of thing don’t have a talk clock. So we have to fit into certain windows because of commercials and time slots and all that kind of thing, which is just normal for terrestrial production and there’s no problem. But one of the things is that does go away if you look at it from that standpoint from the online version of things. So being able to use that a little bit more. But I don’t think I think we’re going to go by the aspect to if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it. I mean, we’re not going to make any huge changes to what we bring and how we do things from that kind of a standpoint. We’re just going to increase the rich media, be able to bring a little bit more definition to it, a little more specifics and maybe some more interaction, because that’s also an online option that you don’t get on the air and be able to use some of these tools a little bit more. But I think that’s the biggest thing we’re really looking at over the next five years.
Unfortunately, I mean, or fortunately, I don’t know which way I would go with this. The reason that I’m a cartoon cat is because I don’t think anybody wants to look at me. But video is part of the process now, and you almost are forced to have a visual component of some kind in order to do these things where podcasting… It’s great because the name’s flexible, so it’s not like audio casting, so you’d only be audio. But that wasn’t the case even five years ago. And now, I mean, if you don’t, then you just get missed by so many people because they only do on YouTube, so you have to be on YouTube. They only want to see this. And I think it’s really interesting because even though
The focus most of the time is just on the audio. People want to have a visual component. Yeah, absolutely. And the visual component does legitimately add something. You can show things, you can get into more detail on stuff because it’s you’re not having to describe it. Pictures worth a thousand words, which is very true. So I see why that is important. And I do think that it has its place now. You know, it’s interesting you say that because I listen to, you know, watch YouTube videos, all that kind of stuff, like most other people do. But usually it’s on in the background. There’s a picture, but I’m listening to the audio because I’m doing something else. But you still expect to be able to look up at the screen and see something other than black. Right, yeah. You want to have something moving around there, don’t you, to know that everything’s working, at the very least. But that’s interesting how it evolves like that and how people are almost, there’s an expectation. Even if it’s not great,
video or great visuals, that’s better than no visuals is what I found. The one thing I will say to a lot of YouTube creators is please normalize the audio. There are a few things that you can do that makes it a little less, you know, and on stuff like that, you’re not expecting some, you know, massive Hollywood production type of a thing. And most stuff isn’t. And usually, frankly, I find those type of shows a lot more interesting, but you can do production with today’s tools and stuff now and have a reasonably professional output. You know, where everything kind of jives and works together. It’s, you know, may not be the same as if you had, you know, magic light and industrial light and sound do it or something like that. But at the end of the day, it will still work and work quite well. And that’s one of the things that’s really cool about the way this is going to now is because it does open the doors to a lot more people to be able to put something out there that may not appeal to the masses, but certainly has its audience, that type of a thing.
And that audience wouldn’t be able to get the content in normal ways, and the producer wouldn’t be able to present it. But now this creates that and makes it possible. So there are a lot of positives to that. And I also think that the direction of what we’re going here, I think in the next 10 years, the technology will push it much further along than it is now. And we’re going to see some things that we haven’t thought of yet, too. So we mentioned here in the conversation the rise of artificial intelligence and so forth. So do you think… And I mean, they’re already out there. So I’m describing something that is already in existence. But when AI starts producing content like you have for 10 years, then what’s going to happen? So it’s just going to be you can type in and say, I want to hear about episodic versions of X. And then this thing would be able to produce those things. So what happens then? Because it’s exponential creation.
at that point. Do you think that’s going to happen? Do you think that’s going to be a thing? Or do you think that people won’t have an interest in that? You know, I think I look at it from the standpoint, because this question comes up a lot on our show, is AI going to take over the world? And if they did, you know, more power to them, I’ll retire. But I don’t see that happening. I think what we’re going to have is a combination of things. And we’re already to a point now where You can conceivably do that. And I’ll give a little spoiler alert, but later this year, we’re working on an episode of our show that we’re going to be interviewing one of the AIs that does one of the smart speakers, because that’s possible now. And things like even ChatGPT have a phone number where you can call and talk to it just over the phone. So it isn’t like that’s in the future. It’s here. But the thing of it is, as far as one completely taking over the other, I don’t see that happening. If you want dynamically generated content, so I want to hear the latest about some specific topic,
AI would do that a lot better than humans because humans wouldn’t have produced it yet, and the AI could do it instantly. But you also have the other side of it is where I think there’s always going to be a reason and a need for regular human people to do shows as well. And I think what we’re going to see is those things together. And we already are. I’ll tell you one thing. I found this to be a little creepy, frankly, when I first found out about it. Because it could be abused, it seems like. But the platform that we use for recording is this internet thing and it has a lot of features on it. And one of the issues that we’ve had is we’ll have guests sometimes where they’ll disconnect and it won’t have completely uploaded the interview, but there’s an AI on there now where it’ll analyze it and actually be able to type in what you wanted to say. And it will finish the interview with the voice pitch and everything. You can’t tell the difference. Yeah. So, you know, that scares me. That scares me. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, it’s, it is. And there’s another, um,
company out of, I think it’s Switzerland that we’re working with now. Because one of the things is, is personnel on these type of things and keeping your website updated and all these type of things relevant are a big part of it. And from that standpoint, they have an AI that will actually look at the script of each week’s episode and do your podcast, or not your podcast posts, like your blog posts and all that kind of a thing. And we’ve been testing it out and it’s like amazing. It even has deep links to other things. It generates pictures on the fly that are relevant and that are completely AI built, you know, and that kind of a thing. Now, I know from our standpoint, we’ll always say, hey, this was written by an AI so people know what’s going on. But it does create a situation where the topics of a given week show can be distributed faster. It’s more accurate and it’s more readily available. You know, so that does make sense. That doesn’t mean we’re going to go away, but it certainly does mean that that tool is going to be something that we will continue to use. And it’s very valid to do it. Yeah.
Yeah. Well, it’s interesting. You mentioned that. And I just, I just noticed this, maybe I’ve seen it before, but I just, I was watching a history channel show and they had an image on the screen and it says digitally generated image at the bottom. And I hadn’t noticed anybody put that before until I was watching the show. And I’m like, that’s an AI image that now they’re, they’re noting. Right. I mean, it’s just, it’s kind of like one of those captions, like a, don’t try this at home kind of thing, but not quite as obvious. It’s even actually a little bit blended into the picture, but I was like, well, that is fascinating. So I wonder if going forward, kind of like, you know, there’s, I don’t want to say rules, but it is, it is good form to say this is an advertisement or contains advertisements now with certain shows on certain platforms so that,
Now you’re going to say parts of this were created by AI. Even when you upload to YouTube now, there’s a question that says, was this generated using artificial intelligence or something like that? That’s not verbatim there, folks. But anyway, so you have to check yes or no, kind of just like you check yes or no. Is this something for children? And so we’ve already seen the foundations being laid for, you know, calling these things out so that that way there’s, it’s obvious, right? So there’s no ambiguity. Yes, we use this. Yes, we use that. That’s interesting though, that we’re, that it’s already being kind of self-regulated in a way. Yeah. And you know, there’s people out there that are not going to disclose and every so often they get called out on it. We saw that with Dungeons and Dragons last year with the, Oh, this is all original artwork. And it turned out to be AI generated and created a big scandal. So it’s,
You know, from that kind of a standpoint, I don’t have a problem with it if it’s disclosed. And it’s not just in YouTube and like what we’re doing. My other co-host Gretchen is an author and she just got her first book published last year. And one of the things that was done through the publisher is you have to, they require you to disclose, is any of this AI generated, the pictures, the content, that kind of a thing. And if it is, they require that you tell them. So we’re seeing that in pretty much all media. But the thing of it is, is the person could easily check no when it is. Obviously there’s that. They might lie. So that’s where it becomes a little bit sketchy. Yeah. Well, you’re right. And writing is another one of these areas. AI does a great job of writing sometimes. And I mean, great. Like you mentioned before with the blog posts and so forth. And you would go through it and it wouldn’t be obvious enough.
that it was AI generated, especially if it’s text. I think the pictures, at least at the moment, I will say, I can always kind of look at a picture and you get that kind of weird vibe on it at the moment. Still, it’s kind of like the uncanny valley when you’re looking at CGI and so forth. But it’s only going to get better. And so, yeah, it’s going to be transparent, I think, probably within the next couple of years. I don’t see it taking very long at all. Yeah. You won’t even know it’ll be transparent. It’ll just be transparent. And then, you know, that, then that becomes another whole bag of issues because of, like you said, people just trying to pass it off as something else and something that’s, that’s real. I think, um, well, fortunately and unfortunately, we’ll kind of take a side road here real quick is that, you know, we have all this stuff going on in Congress about, uh,
Uh, you know, things in the sky and, and, uh, and extraterrestrials and, and, you know, machinery that’s flying around that’s not a plane and so forth and on now on the other side, we’ve got, uh, the ability to produce images that look incredibly realistic in video. It’s incredibly realistic, um, with, you know, anybody. I mean, anyone can do it. Uh, and so the lines of reality continue to blur, right? So, you know, we have this whole notion of living in a simulation as the simulation folding in on itself becomes the question. And, you know, and when you look at it, if you want to really get creepy with the whole, you know, matrix type thing, it is, you know, it’s certainly something that there’s a lot of people that have had a lot of discussions about this and can put forward some evidence that does make it feel like
That’s possibility. Can it be proven? Of course not. But it’s certainly begin to wonder, you know, are we all simulation in a cube sitting on someone’s desk in an alien planet somewhere? I mean, you know, and the thing of it is, is I think if I’ve learned one thing just working in my life is anything’s possible. It may be highly improbable, but it’s certainly possible. Right. So, yeah. Yeah, exactly. It’s just so wild. I mean, we’re talking about technology and so forth. It’s just so wild to me that we live in this time when, you know, when a generation ago, none of this was even thought about. Yeah. And I think a lot of just regular people don’t really know where the technology is at. And I think it would scare them a little bit. I mean,
And I’ll give you another topic. We have legitimate cyborgs in our world now, too. I mean, you look at the definition of that and there’s actually a cyborg foundation where if you want to get your antenna or fins or whatever you can call them and they have the technology to be able to do this kind of stuff. But in a more applicable thing, there’s medical implants and stuff like that that already exists. So that road is it’s not that’s in the future. That’s happening now, too. So as far as the evolution of all of these type of things goes, it’s not going to stop. I mean, it’s going to continue to go forward. It’s basically what we do with it. And I tend to look at tech from a standpoint that it’s not good or bad. It’s just very, it’s there. And then you can use it for whatever purpose. And that’s no different than what things have been for the past time there’s been humans. But the difference being with it is, is the capability is so much greater that it ends up creating a situation where it can become downright scary.
And a lot of people are very much concerned that that’s the direction we’re going. I don’t think we’re going to see Skynet. I think we’re going to see a blending of these things that will improve lives, these different type of things. But there will be people in this world that will try to use it for nefarious reasons. And that’s going to be a challenge. It already is. Oh, yeah. You cannot process it. I mean, you are inundated now with information. And it runs the gamut from being actually factual to being totally outlandish. And unfortunately, the outlandish gets as much credence sometimes as the factual. Or more. Yeah, or more. Yeah, exactly. And you cannot… It’s hard then, even for a person who is…
you know, somewhat skilled at trying to find these things and and wheedle them out to do searches. It used to be, you know, in the early days of the Internet, you could do a search and you could find some information, you know, that was from a reliable source. And you’re like, okay that’s it. I’m done. Now you put in your search and unless you are going to certain places, who knows what you’re going to get? Even on the first page, as it were, you know, is the Google thing. People don’t go more than three pages deep on Google kind of a situation. In the first three pages, you find all kinds of garbage. I mean, how are people, just regular average people, going to be able to help themselves discern all this? It is very difficult, and it is a legitimate thing. And
I look at it from a standpoint back in the day when you did news stories and stuff, you’ve got three sources, all that kind of stuff. And I think that while the world works completely differently now, using an attitude like that is important. So if you find something online that is like, okay, this is very interesting, try to cross-reference it and at least look up where it’s coming from. you know, and if it’s point of origin is the onion or something like that, probably go to the next link or enjoy it. I mean, they, I love the onion, but they are, you know, and there’s been a few of them that have been picked up by the news outlets going, Oh, this happened, not realizing it was satire. And that’s one that’s, that’s published as satire and says what it is. And there’s a lot of stuff out there that doesn’t have that byline. It’s just, you know, Oh, here it is. So you do have to take some effort to be able to look at it and go, okay,
Is this real? Can I see it somewhere else? Is this coming off of a place that I’ve ever heard of? Or is it something weird? And that’s one of the things you have to do. But the problem is it takes time to do it. So you can’t just search and take it at face value. You do have to do a little bit of research into what you’re getting to see if it’s something that’s real or something that’s not. And I think that applies more to things that are a little bit outlandish in our day and age, the politics that go along with stuff and all of that. there’s all kinds of things out there. So to see if something’s real, you almost have to go back to the source, find that politician speech, find the, you know, documents, that kind of a thing, which you can do online with very little work, but you still have to do it. And those kind of steps are going to become very important to know what’s legit and what’s not, especially as we’re getting to a point, like you say, you can still sort of tell it’s ai generated today, but two years down the road, that’s very unlikely that’s going to be the case. Yeah. It’s just, it’s so hard. It, it,
To me, at least for myself, I find that I don’t want to invest. I don’t necessarily want to invest. I don’t want to listen to anything. So what I end up doing is going to the same sources over and over again if they have a really good track record for me, right? And so then I’m ignoring all this other stuff, which I don’t know that that’s necessarily the best solution, right? I stopped… I stopped watching network news, gosh, probably over 20 years ago because I was reading everything online at that point. But now everything’s so invasive. It’s like maybe I’m going to go back to network news. I don’t know what the deal is. But everybody still gets it wrong, and I think celebrity culture is probably one of the worst offenders because the celebrities will get it wrong, and then the people follow the celebrities, and then –
all these people get this wrong because they’re like, well, you know, if, you know, Michael Jordan says it’s right, he’s my guy. So not, you know, throwing Michael Jordan into the bus or anything. I just, he’s the first thing he popped in my head, but, but I do find it really fascinating. Classification for that. You’re absolutely right. It, you know, it depends on do you trust and a lot of people trust celebrities and origins like that a lot more than the news. And it’s not for, The wrong reason, too. You’ve got to figure that network news and news in general is no different than other television shows. They’re producing it to make money from the commercials, which means they need to have ratings, which means they’re going to report what their audience wants to hear in some ways. I don’t think it’s maybe 180 degrees that way, but there definitely is a skew from different outlets to the audience and that type of a thing to keep their ratings up to be able to sell commercials, which doesn’t seem like the right reason to produce news. But you’ve got to make money.
And that’s what it’s about. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. And that’s the hard part. And so I think, unfortunately, as we’re moving with technology and so forth, that, you know, the interesting thing to me over this time is you have these folks who are, you know, amateur journalists or however you want to call whatever words you want to use for them, who are doing a great job of things, but they’re only – in really small portions, right? They’re not being paid by anybody. They’re going out and doing this on their own and making some things happen. The hard part, though, is to break on through, right? So to break on through to a level where basically you can live by doing these things. And that’s the promise of the internet, right? But as far as the delivery so far, I think it’s been hard to deliver on that.
for the masses, right? So there’s so many podcasts, there’s so many things out there, all of them can’t be self-sustaining. Do you think there’s an answer in there somewhere for that? I was looking at statistics at that once, and it’s something like about 10% of what you see on online content. I’m going to pick on YouTube because I think that’s where this number came from. is actually self-sustaining like the person can make their living producing their videos and doing whatever it is they’re doing, which means 90 can’t. So only one out of ten right? Um, and as far as that kind of thing goes, it does make it difficult and even productions that do hold their own uh user-friendly has been fortunate enough to do that for, you know, a few years now. It’s still when you go out and you want to cover specific things, it does cost money to do that. I mean, you just have expenses travel and you’re going to go cover this technology show or
One of the things we’ve had recently is got an opportunity to check out a real world Iron Man jetpack, which I’ve kind of become addicted to. But that, you know, you have to travel there and it’s the cost. And all of this kind of stuff is just the case. But if you want to bring content that’s accurate, you have to figure out a way to be able to do it. And I think that’s one of the things that causes a lot of what we see to be very niche. Because if you were going to just do a general, I’m going to cover the news type thing, you’d have to be very well funded to do that. But if it’s specifically, I’m going to just cover,
costume performers at Comic-Con, that’s a little easier to bite off without having a huge budget you have to get there you have to get in do you know that type of a thing. But at the end of the day, there’s a big difference in the cost of doing that versus something and you can do it well if you have a specific topic like that. And I think we’re seeing a lot of that in, um, there’s a lot of amazing content producers out there that do, have I look at it and it’s like, you know, it’s not funded. They might monetize the video, but that’s about it. and they’re still bringing something that’s easily as good as what you’d see on cnn or something. And to me, that is something i really respect because that’s where you’re looking at exactly what you’re talking about is somebody that’s that doesn’t necessarily have the funds to do a broad thing, but they’re able to bring a specific topic, do it well, and be able to at least you know coexist with that and be able to fund what they’re doing just for that. So I think going down the road, we’re going to see a lot of that, but being able to access a niche audience for a niche topic,
allows that to be able to be a thing, which is totally something new with the internet. That’s very insightful. That gives me a lot to think about here on all these topics. I always ask myself these questions and then I get a hold of somebody like you. I’m like, hey, I got to throw the question at them to see what they have to say. That was a fantastic answer on that topic. The other thing that You mentioned YouTube, and YouTube’s what I look at as a gatekeeper, right? So, you know, even though only 10% can maintain, there’s still 90% of that content that YouTube, in essence, is benefiting from, because it’s still small, right? It’s micro. And so they’re still getting eyeballs for the micro, even though they’re not paying out on that. So it’s interesting. And if you think about it, there’s more content in the micro content
than there is in the macro right exactly exactly and so they’re really actually making more money possibly off of the micro stuff than they are the macro stuff. Yeah. And I think that’s very true because, you know, the way youtube pays their bills is they either have commercials or you buy a premium membership. That’s their business model. And then they’re basically able to get all of their content. They don’t have to pay to produce it. And if you do get paid for your YouTube video, it’s because enough people are watching it that a certain portion of their marketing goes to you. And if you want to look at it at a very 10,000 foot level, that’s all it is. But at the end of the day, unlike Netflix and Disney plus, and some of these things that are paying hundreds of millions of dollars for content creation, YouTube’s kind of pass that along to everybody else. The advantages is anybody else has the opportunity to present what they want within reason, obviously, and potentially get it out there. So
you also have other reasons. It might be that, you know, you’re marketing your product or that kind of a thing, or you sell commercials or something on your own. These type of things are not an option in general media, which are in the case like YouTube. But at the end of the day, it’s an amazing concept from the standpoint of YouTube, which is owned by google now and has been for a long time. A long time. That we have this service. We’re going to provide you the tools to do it. They do an excellent job at that. I’ve always been impressed with what they have it works it works well and it does what it’s supposed to, but they, basically have figured out a way they don’t have to pay to generate create content at all because somebody else is going to do that for them and there’s it’s kind of a win-win the content creators have an avenue that they wouldn’t normally and youtube has the ability to present a lot of different things on a lot of different topics that you wouldn’t see anywhere else and not have to pay for them yeah exactly i think i think um well depending on who you are you think the
balance is tipped a little bit in YouTube’s favor because they’re the ones that get a hold of the bag of money at the end of the day with everybody else. Of course it is. And it absolutely always will be. When they first started, that wasn’t the case. They were basically, I remember all the stories of whenever they were like, we need more money to pay for servers to keep this thing going. back in what like 2006 2007 yeah and uh yeah it was it was a wild time back then uh before they got absorbed into google but i usually try to keep these things in an hour and we’re getting close to our hour um i don’t want to keep you too long and this has been a fun conversation it really has we’re all over the place we’re all over the place excuse me just a minute. Oh, yeah, good.
So, but everybody go ahead and go see, check out user-friendly show, user-friendly show.com. You can see Bill and everybody else on there and they have lots of experience and done this for a really long time. And it’s a lot of fun and it’s a lot of information. We welcome everybody. Please check it out. And we’d love to hear from you too. Like we were talking about earlier, it’s how we do our programming. So check it out. Let us know what you think. Yeah. And you can also listen in Portland and Seattle on the radio if you happen to be, you know, internet challenged or something. So that’s the interesting part to me. I’m like, wow, he’s straddling the eras here. So it’s fantastic. Doing both. Hey, you know what? We talk about recto tech sometimes, so we’ve got to do both, right? You’ve got to do both. Yeah, exactly. Well, thanks, Bill, so much. Hang on just a second. We’ll close it up. And thanks, everybody. We’ll talk to you next time.

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