Stop the World

Today we continue the AI theme with a TSD Summit Sessions conversation on China and AI with Selina Xu, who leads China and AI research and strategic initiatives in the Office of Eric Schmidt.

Who is winning the AI race between the US and China? Are they focusing on the same things? Where do China’s capabilities stand today? How is AI being adopted and integrated into economies? What are the benefits of China’s open-source approach? Where does the US maintain a strategic advantage? 

These are just some of the questions David Wroe tackles with Selina in today’s interview. This podcast really covers a lot of ground, and is a must listen for anyone interested in the development of artificial intelligence and why it matters who is leading the development. It is also timely given the US Administration’s decision this week to allow Nvidia to sell more powerful chips to China, which will likely impact key areas in which Selina says the US has a current advantage, in particular in the field of compute. 

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In the first Summit Sessions interview post-Sydney Dialogue, David Wroe speaks with leading global AI safety expert, Dr Roman Yampolskiy. Roman is founding director of the Cyber Security Lab at the University of Louisville, and author of many books including “AI: Unexplainable, Unpredictable, Uncontrollable”.

This week, ASPI convened the fourth Sydney Dialogue summit on critical technologies and security, and AI featured heavily across the two days. So we’re bringing some of that discussion to the pod this week. The conversation covers many aspects of AI safety and risks, including the issue of control, and whether we should be continuing apace in our pursuit of superintelligence if we don’t know how to control the technology. 

They also discuss the recent Genesis Mission announcement coming out of the US, the opportunities that AI presents and how they can be leveraged safely and the big questions on everyone’s minds - will AI make us happy? Or will it control us?

One of the hottest topics in the world is data centres. Demand for the computing power needed to drive modern economies and societies, especially with artificial intelligence, is climbing steeply. Cloud computing services, often provided by big tech firms known as hyperscalers, supply a lot of this power.

In today’s episode, Microsoft’s regional vice president for corporate external and legal affairs in Asia, Mike Yeh, talks about the strategic importance of cloud computing and of turning critical data into national assets. Increasingly, the ability to access and process data effectively is a significant strategic commodity that will help determine the strength of nations.

Mike discusses the meaning of digital “sovereignty”, the use of spreading risk so that a country doesn’t find itself cut off from computing power or from its own data. He talks about the energy demands of computing, the value of digitising and structuring data, the security considerations of cloud computing, Ukraine’s experience with data, and the relationship between strategic competition and rival cloud services in the Indo-Pacific region. He also covers the cybersecurity challenges of cooperation between China, Russia, Iran and North Korea, and levels of social trust in AI in the Indo-Pacific. Once you’re done listening folks, don’t forget to check out the Sydney Dialogue website.

The Sydney Dialogue (TSD) is just weeks away! If you haven't yet registered, head on over and do so now: https://tsd.aspi.org.au/enquire 

In the second episode of TSD Summit Sessions, David Wroe speaks to Anduril co-founder and CEO Brian Schimpf. This is an episode for our defence wonks - Brian talks about the need to build capabilities quickly, affordably and in ways that mean it can be built using a country's existing industrial capacity for years to come. He also talks about deterrence, using Ukraine and Taiwan as real time examples, and the need for companies to be on the side of liberal democracies, and to be thinking about the long-term strategic needs of liberal democracies.

And, of course, the conversation also covers autonomy and artificial intelligence, the need to keep human decision making in the loop and what human-machine teaming looks like. It's a great conversation that covers a lot of ground, and provides an excellent lead-in to the discussions that will be had at TSD on 4-5 December in Sydney.

Last month, some of the world’s leading artificial intelligence experts signed a petition calling for a prohibition on developing superintelligent AI until it is safe. One of those experts was Dan Hendrycks, director for the Center for AI Safety and an adviser to Elon Musk’s xAI and leading firm Scale AI. Dan has led original and thought-provoking research including into the risk of rogue AIs escaping human control, the deliberate misuse of the technology by malign actors, and the emergence of dangerous strategic dynamics if one nation creates superintelligence, prompting fears among rival nations.

In the lead-up to ASPI’s Sydney Dialogue tech and security conference in December, Dan talks about the different risks AI poses, the possibility that AI develops its own goals and values, the concept of recursion in which machines build smarter machines, definitions of artificial “general” intelligence, the shortcomings of current AIs and the inadequacy of historical analogies such as nuclear weapons in understanding risks from superintelligence.

To see some of the research discussed in today’s episode, visit the Center for AI Safety’s website here.

Russia has more than 100 times the population of its neighbour Estonia, yet the small Baltic nation has played a clever strategic hand, wedding itself closely to NATO and the European Union, and investing in sovereign tech and security capabilities. But with Moscow pressing and testing Europe, Estonia and its neighbours are under pressure.

Veteran Estonian MP and chair of the parliamentary Foreign Affairs Committee Marko Mihkelson argues democracies became too relaxed in the decades after the Cold War, with Europe disarming and the US and others assuming trade would dissuade authoritarian nations such as China from conflict. 

Democracies today need to stick together, he says in this wide-ranging conversation, especially by supporting Ukraine. Marko talks about the ways authoritarians are exploiting polarisation in democracies and seeking to end the western-led liberal order. He explains why he believes imperialism has become ingrained in Russia over centuries. And if the likes of Estonia are to avoid a repeat of the half-century of occupation of Russian occupation they experienced during the Cold War, Russia must be utterly defeated.

What a week! And some of it was actually good news! Justin and Dave pull apart the latest events, starting with PM Anthony Albanese’s all-consuming meeting with US President Donald Trump at the White House. After all the jangled nerves, it went rather well, but what does the critical minerals deal mean in geopolitical terms? Is AUKUS really safe? And just what did Navy Secretary John Phelan mean about clarifying ambiguities in the trilateral agreement?

Justin and Dave discuss Trump’s confidence that Chinese leader Xi Jinping won’t move against Taiwan any time soon, the upcoming meeting between the two leaders on the side of APEC in Seoul, and the much-welcomed new sanctions an increasingly impatient Trump has slapped on an infuriatingly recalcitrant Russian leader Vladimir Putin.

Finally, they discuss Dave’s favourite story of the week: an open letter calling for a pause on the development of superintelligent AI, the pros and cons of the movement, and the surprising signatories.

In today’s episode, Natalia Solieva, former spokesperson at Ukraine’s Embassy in Washington and an expert on Russian information operations, analyses Moscow’s wartime gaslighting (and not in the sense of its dwindling energy exports to Europe.)

Natalia, now a resident in the United States, has studied extensively the battle of narratives over Moscow’s war against Ukraine. She explains the Ukrainian people’s hard-earned resilience to Russian disinformation, the weapons of influence Moscow has deployed against the US, the reassuring levels of American public support for Ukraine, Russia’s use of cognitive warfare and its attempts to intimidate Europe, the precarious state of the global information environment and the best ways to defend against disinformation.

Natalia also shares with us her favourite Winston Churchill quote.

Though it’s on the opposite side of the world, Europe is vital to Australia’s security, not just because of our shared values but also because of the continent’s role in supporting Ukraine’s resistance against Russia’s aggression—arguably the test case for future global order.

Today, senior European Union diplomat Paola Pampaloni tells Stop the World about progress on the EU’s Indo-Pacific strategy amid rapid shifts in geopolitics.

Paola, who is the EU’s Special Envoy for the Indo-Pacific and Acting Managing Director of the European External Action Service for the Asia-Pacific, talks about the proposed Australia-EU defence and security agreement, difficulties with the free trade agreement and the strategic importance of rules-based trade. She discusses cooperation in strategic sectors such as critical minerals, the risks of dependency on China and the broader question of economic security.

She addresses the reality that China is enabling Russia’s war against Ukraine, and also covers Taiwan, EU defence spending, the authoritarian axis, the US under Donald Trump and technology cooperation with the Indo-Pacific.

Is artificial intelligence a “normal” technology like electrification, computing and the internet, or is it a new entity unlike anything we’ve ever created? The question makes all the difference to how we approach AI policy.

Today on Stop the World, David Wroe speaks to Alice Friend, the Global Head of AI and Emerging Tech Policy at Google. They tackle the big questions including the nature of AI, the meaning of “general” versus narrow intelligence, the role of embodiment and agency in the real world,  the best ways to encourage adoption and integration, and the best approaches to regulation so that countries—and the world—can reap the economic benefits while reducing the safety and security risks. They discuss how the technology is evolving, how it might diffuse through economies and societies, the importance of rules and standards, what it means to “win or lose” the global AI race and what might happen if or when we achieve artificial general intelligence.

It’s a healthy discussion and debate on what AI means for humanity.