Tailgate Talks

*]:pointer-events-auto R6Vx5W_threadScrollVars scroll-mb-[calc(var(--scroll-root-safe-area-inset-bottom,0px)+var(--thread-response-height))] scroll-mt-[calc(var(--header-height)+min(200px,max(70px,20svh)))]" dir="auto" data-turn-id= "request-WEB:5a1cc75d-d5eb-4327-82ae-f33a8e547e70-0" data-turn-id-container= "request-WEB:5a1cc75d-d5eb-4327-82ae-f33a8e547e70-0" data-testid= "conversation-turn-2" data-turn="assistant"> Tailgate Talks with Donald Forgione Episode Title: Leading From The Middle: The Art Of Managing Up Guest: Warren Poplin

In this episode of Tailgate Talks, Donald Forgione and Warren Poplin tackle a topic suggested by a listener: Managing Up.

What do you do when you are a passionate employee or mid-level manager who wants to move an organization forward, but your supervisor seems reluctant to make difficult decisions, lacks urgency, or struggles with leadership responsibilities? How can you influence positive change without creating conflict, threatening your supervisor, or damaging your career?

Donald and Warren explore practical strategies for supporting leaders from below, building trust, increasing influence, and helping supervisors succeed while maintaining professionalism and respect.

Topics Discussed

• What "managing up" really means
• Understanding the pressures your supervisor faces
• Why frustration alone rarely creates positive change
• Building credibility before offering solutions
• Learning to influence without appearing threatening
• The importance of timing, tact, and trust
• Becoming a problem solver instead of a problem identifier
• Helping supervisors make better decisions through information and preparation
• Recognizing when to push, when to pause, and when to adapt
• Maintaining professionalism when leadership falls short
• Developing leadership skills regardless of your position title
• How managing up can strengthen your career and your organization

Key Takeaways

• Leadership is not limited to those with titles.
• Influence is earned through trust, competence, and consistency.
• Present solutions, not just problems.
• Help your supervisor succeed and your entire team benefits.
• Understand your supervisor's challenges before judging their decisions.
• Effective leaders learn to lead in every direction: down, across, and up.

Quote from the Episode

"You don't have to be the boss to make the organization better. Sometimes the most effective leadership comes from helping those above you succeed."

Connect with Donald Forgione

[email protected]

Tailgate Talks Podcast

Tailgate Talks with Donald Forgione

About the Host

Donald Forgione is a former Director of the Florida Park Service, leadership consultant, speaker, author, and host of Tailgate Talks. Through candid conversations and real-world experience, Donald shares practical leadership lessons for professionals in parks, recreation, conservation, and public service.

Subscribe and Listen

Tailgate Talks is available on major podcast platforms, including:

• Apple Podcasts
• Spotify
• Amazon Music

If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, leave a review, and share it with a colleague who is learning to lead from where they are.

Leave No Trace with Mark Eller

This episode on Tailgate Talks, Donald Forgione sits down with Mark Eller from Leave No Trace for a conversation about protecting the outdoors through education, stewardship, and personal responsibility.

Mark shares the story behind the Leave No Trace movement, the growing pressures facing parks and public lands, and why simple actions by everyday visitors can make a lasting difference. The discussion explores how outdoor recreation professionals, park managers, volunteers, and visitors all play a role in protecting natural and cultural resources for future generations.

The episode also highlights the importance of practical, science-based outdoor ethics, visitor education, and the challenge of balancing increased visitation with conservation. Donald and Mark discuss how Leave No Trace principles apply not only in remote wilderness settings, but also in local parks, campgrounds, beaches, trails, and everyday outdoor spaces.

Topics include:

• The history and mission of Leave No Trace
• The Seven Principles and why they matter
• Protecting parks during periods of heavy visitation
• Visitor behavior and resource impacts
• Education versus enforcement
• Stewardship partnerships with parks and recreation agencies
• How recreation professionals can build a culture of conservation
• The future of outdoor ethics in America

Whether you work in parks, recreation, forestry, wildlife management, tourism, or simply love the outdoors, this episode offers practical insight and inspiration for caring for the places we all enjoy.

About the Guest

Leave No Trace is a nonprofit organization dedicated to protecting the outdoors through education, research, and stewardship. Mark Eller serves as Director of Membership and Communications, helping lead outreach, storytelling, partnerships, and educational initiatives that support responsible outdoor recreation.

Learn More

• Leave No Trace Website
• The 7 Principles of Leave No Trace

Contact Information

• General Information: [email protected]
• Mark Eller: [email protected]

Connect with Tailgate Talks

For speaking, training, consulting, or podcast inquiries with Donald Forgione:

• Email: [email protected]
• LinkedIn: Donald Forgione on LinkedIn

Out here on the Tailgate, we talk a lot about the future of parks. In this episode, we're getting right to the heart of it—our next generation.

I'm joined by Ivan Levin from the National Park Trust, an organization dedicated to connecting kids and families to parks, public lands, and the outdoors.

Ivan brings a national perspective on how partnerships between park agencies, nonprofits, and communities can create meaningful opportunities for young people to experience parks—many for the very first time.

We talk about what's working across the country, how programs like Kids to Parks Day are making an impact, and how park professionals at every level can plug into these efforts in a practical way.

This is a conversation about access, stewardship, and making sure the parks we care for today are valued tomorrow.

In This Episode, We Discuss:

• The mission and impact of the National Park Trust
• Why early connections to parks matter more than ever
• How partnerships expand reach and resources
• Practical ways park professionals can get involved locally
• Success stories from across the country
• Building lifelong stewards through meaningful outdoor experiences

Why This Matters

If we want strong parks in the future, we need strong connections today. Programs that introduce kids to the outdoors aren't just nice to have—they are essential to the long-term sustainability of our profession and the places we protect.

Learn More

To learn more about the National Park Trust and how you can get involved, visit: 👉 https://parktrust.org/

Connect with Tailgate Talks

If you enjoyed this episode, share it with your team and colleagues. Together, we can keep growing as professionals and strengthening the impact of parks across the country.

[email protected]

How many visitors are too many?

It is one of the most important and most misunderstood questions in parks and public lands today. In this episode of Tailgate Talks, Donald sits down with Jonathan Brunjes, Deputy Administrator for the Nevada Division of State Parks, to unpack the concept of carrying capacity and why it is not just about counting people. It is about protecting resources, preserving visitor experience, and making thoughtful management decisions that sustain parks for generations.

Together they explore:

• What carrying capacity really means, beyond a simple number

• The difference between physical, ecological, social, and managerial capacity

• Why "more visitation" is not always a success story

• How crowding affects both natural resources and the visitor experience

• Practical tools park leaders can use to evaluate use and impacts

• The role of communication, expectations, and education in managing demand

• Why carrying capacity is ultimately about stewardship, not restriction

This conversation brings real world perspective to an issue many agencies are grappling with as visitation grows nationwide. It is an honest look at how we balance access with preservation, while staying true to the mission of public lands.

Whether you are a park professional, planner, elected official, or someone who simply loves the outdoors, this episode will challenge you to think differently about how we care for the places entrusted to us.

[email protected]

[email protected]

In this episode of Tailgate Talks, I sit down with M.J. James, author of Heal the Hustle, for an honest and timely conversation about burnout, productivity culture, and what it really means to live—and lead—well.

Many of us were taught that hustle equals success. Work harder. Push longer. Rest later. But what happens when that mindset starts to cost us our health, relationships, creativity, and joy?

M.J. challenges the traditional hustle narrative and offers a healthier, more sustainable way forward—especially for leaders, high performers, and purpose-driven professionals who care deeply about their work.

Together, we talk about:

• How hustle culture quietly leads to burnout

• The difference between ambition and exhaustion

• Why rest is not a reward—it's a requirement

• Reframing productivity to include health and humanity

• Practical ways leaders can model balance without losing effectiveness

• How healing the hustle creates stronger teams, better decisions, and longer careers

This conversation is especially relevant for public servants, park and recreation professionals, nonprofit leaders, and anyone who feels called to serve—but doesn't want to lose themselves in the process.

If you've ever felt tired, stretched thin, or wondered, "Is this pace really sustainable?"—this episode is for you.

About the Guest

M.J. James is the author of Heal the Hustle and a passionate advocate for redefining success in a world that glorifies burnout. Through her work, she helps individuals and organizations rethink productivity, prioritize well-being, and build lives rooted in purpose—not constant pressure.

🔗 Learn more about M.J. and her work: mjjames.com

[email protected]

tailgate-talks.com

📝 Episode Show Notes

Guest: Lauren McMillan, PhD, RPA – Cultural Resource Manager, Virginia State Parks [email protected] Host: Donald Forgione [email protected]

Episode Overview

In this episode of Tailgate Talks, Donald Forgione sits down with Lauren McMillan, the Cultural Resource Manager from Virginia State Parks, to talk about what cultural resources really are—and why they matter far beyond compliance, checklists, or old buildings.

This conversation explores the humanity behind cultural resources: the people, stories, and lived experiences embedded in landscapes, structures, and artifacts across our parks. Lauren shares her journey from academia into state parks, how teaching shapes her work today, and why helping staff understand the why behind cultural resource protection changes everything—from decision-making to visitor experience.

This episode is a thoughtful reminder that parks don't just protect land—they protect stories.

Key Topics Covered

• What cultural resources actually include (and common misconceptions)

• Moving from compliance-driven preservation to meaningful connection

• The role of cultural resource managers in everyday park decisions

• Balancing preservation, safety, and public use

• Why physical places help us connect to the humanity of the past

• How understanding cultural resources strengthens park staff and visitor experience

Conversation Highlights

• Cultural resources aren't just "old things"—they are evidence of real people

• Why interpretation and preservation go hand in hand

• How cultural resource awareness empowers non-specialist park staff

• The danger of treating preservation as a checklist instead of a responsibility

• Protecting stories, not just structures

Who Should Listen

• Park, recreation, and public land professionals

• Interpreters, rangers, maintenance staff, and managers

• Leaders making decisions that affect historic and cultural sites

• Anyone who believes parks are about people as much as places

Closing Thought

When we understand the stories embedded in our parks, we don't just protect resources—we honor the people who came before us and enrich the experience of those who come after.

Ethics for State Park Leaders

Guest: Brent Leisure, Director of Texas State Parks (ret)

Ethics in state parks is rarely about clear-cut right and wrong. More often, leaders find themselves navigating gray areas—where policies, public expectations, resource protection, staff morale, and political realities collide.

In this episode of Tailgate Talks, Donald sits down with Brent Leisure for a thoughtful, practical conversation about ethical leadership in state parks. Together, they explore how ethics shows up in everyday decisions—far beyond policy manuals and audit reports—and why culture, consistency, and courage matter more than titles.

This episode speaks directly to park professionals who are balancing limited resources, public trust, internal pressures, and stewardship responsibilities. Whether you're a new supervisor or a seasoned leader, this conversation offers tools to help you lead with integrity when the path forward isn't obvious.

In This Episode, We Discuss:

• The difference between ethics and morals in leadership

• Why most ethical challenges live in the gray area, not black and white

• How small compromises can quietly shape organizational culture

• The role of consistency and fairness in building trust with staff

• Why "this is how we've always done it" can be a warning sign

• Navigating ethical decisions under pressure from politics, public opinion, and limited resources

• How leaders can model ethical behavior—even when it's uncomfortable

• Practical ways to prepare yourself and your team for ethical decision-making before problems arise

Key Takeaways:

• Ethical leadership is less about rules and more about daily choices

• Culture is shaped by what leaders tolerate, not just what they say

• Transparency and accountability protect both the organization and the leader

• When leaders do the right thing early, they avoid much harder decisions later

Who This Episode Is For:

• Park Rangers and frontline staff

• Supervisors, managers, and administrators

• Emerging leaders preparing for greater responsibility

• Anyone serving in public lands, conservation, or recreation

🎧 Listen now wherever you get your podcasts If this episode resonates, please share it with a colleague, mentor, or emerging leader—and keep the conversation going around the tailgate.

In today's episode, Donald sits on the tailgate with Kevin Korenthal, Executive Director of the National Association of Park Foundations, to explore how park professionals and their supporting foundations can work together more effectively, more confidently, and with clearer expectations.

Kevin brings decades of nonprofit leadership and association experience to NAPF, and he shares practical guidance on building stronger relationships between park agencies and the foundations that support them.

⭐ In This Episode

We discuss:

• What Park Foundations Actually Do Beyond fundraising — their role in advocacy, community engagement, volunteerism, and long-term resource development.

• Why Some Partnerships Thrive (and Why Others Struggle) Kevin explains common pitfalls between parks and foundations and how communication, clarity, and expectations can make or break the relationship.

• How Park Professionals Can Better Support Their Foundations Simple actions staff can take that dramatically increase trust and effectiveness.

• Board Development & Governance Tips Recruiting the right volunteers, setting expectations, and avoiding the "warm body on a board" trap.

• How to Communicate Needs Without Making "The Big Ask" Every Time Tools and practices for creating open, ongoing dialogue.

• What Foundations Wish Park Managers Understood Kevin offers honest, actionable insights that managers can implement right away.

• Training, Mentorship, and the Importance of a Shared Mission How park professionals can build a stronger culture of stewardship around their foundation.

🎙️ About Kevin Korenthal

Kevin Korenthal, CAE, is the Executive Director of the National Association of Park Foundations, an organization dedicated to strengthening parks through strong, ethical, and effective supporting foundations. He brings deep expertise in nonprofit management, board development, leadership training, and fostering healthy partnerships between agencies and their philanthropic arms. Learn more at www.the-napf.org.

🌄 Why This Episode Matters

Park Foundations are powerful multipliers — but only when the park and the foundation operate as partners, not separate planets. This episode equips park professionals with the understanding and tools they need to:

• Build trust

• Improve communication

• Engage board members

• Strengthen fundraising capacity

• Create a positive, lasting partnership

If you work with a Friends group, foundation, or nonprofit partner — this conversation is essential listening.

🔗 Connect with Kevin

• Website: www.the-napf.org

• Email: [email protected]

In this heartfelt and eye-opening episode, Donald sits down with Veronica Greear, Area 6 Manager for Tennessee State Parks, to talk about something every park professional needs to understand — creating programs and experiences that truly welcome visitors with disabilities.

Veronica brings a rare and powerful dual perspective: She's a seasoned park ranger, interpreter, manager, and leader… and she's the mother of a daughter with Down Syndrome.

Together, we explore:

• What Down Syndrome actually is — and what it isn't

• Why many park programs unintentionally exclude people with disabilities

• How simple changes can make programs more welcoming and comfortable

• What "people-first" programming looks like in real park settings

• The emotional side of being a parent and a park professional

• How staff training, visitor communication, and program design can evolve

• Practical ideas you can implement immediately in your park

• The importance of patience, empathy, and flexibility in visitor service

• What park leaders should be thinking about as they develop future programs

Veronica also shares:

• Her journey through a 20-year park career

• The day she literally went into labor at a state park

• Lessons her daughter has taught her that apply to visitor engagement

• What she wishes every ranger, interpreter, and supervisor understood

This conversation isn't about paperwork, ADA compliance, or checking a box. It's about seeing people, building trust, and making our parks better for every visitor who walks through our gates.

Whether you manage programs, lead staff, or interact with visitors daily, this episode will change how you think about accessibility and inclusion.

[email protected]

[email protected]

Episode summary

Donald sits down with longtime friend and retired District Manager Warren Poplin to unpack how to plan successful "music in the park" events—from picking the right artist for the vibe, to power, staging, permits, and the little courtesies that turn musicians into repeat partners. It's a nuts-and-bolts, field-tested guide for park pros, friends groups, and community partners.

Why this matters

Live music can be a low-cost, high-impact way to activate parks, diversify audiences, and build community pride. Doing it well protects resources, supports artists, and keeps visitors coming back.

Guest

Warren Poplin — Retired State Park District Manager, frequent Tailgate Talks guest, and seasoned event operator with decades of on-the-ground experience coordinating concerts and community programs in public spaces.

Key takeaways

• Match music to mission & moment: Align genre/energy to the event's purpose (family day, evening picnic, heritage fest, trail run finish, holiday lighting, etc.).

• Right-sized production wins: Small parks and small budgets do best with solo/duo/acoustic; bigger draws require a defined stage, power plan, and crowd layout.

• Infrastructure is everything: Flat surface, weather plan, safe electrical, clear load-in, and simple signage solve 90% of headaches.

• Respect the resource: Volume limits, turf/tree protection, cable ramping, and wildlife sensitivity keep the park first.

• Treat artists like partners: Good comms, parking, water, green room space, and timely payment = great shows and good word of mouth.

• Clarity in contracts: Scope, set length, sound limits, cancellation/weather clauses, insurance, and deliverables prevent surprises.

• Neighbors count: Noise windows, traffic plans, and end-times maintain community support.

Practical planning checklist

Program & booking

• Define goal, audience, and "feel" (acoustic picnic, bluegrass evening, jazz brunch, cultural showcase, etc.)

• Shortlist artists who fit family-friendly content and your decibel/time constraints

• Verify W-9/insurance if required; confirm set length, breaks, and backline needs

Site & layout

• Flat, stable performance area (stage, deck, or ground with mats)

• Audience zones, ADA routes, shade/shelter, and emergency access kept clear

• Cable ramps/ties; protect trees, turf, irrigation heads

Power & sound

• Dedicated 20A circuits near stage; no daisy-chain madness

• If using generators: inverter/quiet type, grounded, away from audience

• Agree on a max SPL and a soundcheck window

Lighting (for evenings)

• Minimum: performer wash + audience path lighting + exit/parking illumination

• Avoid spill into sensitive habitat/roosting areas

Permits & safety

• Noise variance if needed; ranger/volunteer staffing plan

• Weather thresholds (lightning, wind, heavy rain) and pause/cancel script

• First aid, radios, and "show stop" authority identified

Hospitality & courtesies

• Reserved parking near load-in; wagon or cart available

• Water, bathrooms, and a simple green room/tent

• Small thank-you: park swag, day passes, photos, quick thank-you post

Comms & promotion

• Clear run-of-show to artists and staff

• Social posts with artist tag, schedule, what to bring (chairs/blankets), pet rules

• On-site signage for stage, restrooms, and rules

Budget

• Artist fee (with deposit), sound/lighting, staff/overtime, marketing, contingency (10–15%)

• In-kind partners: local music store, friends group, tourism board

Pro tips from the field

• Have a Plan B (and C): Shade tent + quick tarp kit + lightning delay protocol.

• Keep it simple: Fewer inputs = faster soundcheck and fewer failures.

• Front-load courtesy: A friendly load-in + cold water + on-time pay buys endless goodwill.

• Think exits: End on time; light the walks and parking; stagger teardown vs. visitor egress.

• Capture content: Get 3–5 photos/video clips for your next promo reel (with permissions).