“I got calls from people inside of some of the AI labs,” says technology ethicist Tristan Harris. “And it felt like getting a call from Robert Oppenheimer before the atomic bomb.” 

Harris (a former Google insider and AI expert) has spent more than a decade sounding the alarm about the effects of technology on our wellbeing. He’s currently the co-founder of Center for Humane Technology, a nonprofit organization whose mission is to align technology with humanity’s best interests.

He joins us this week to discuss his new film, The AI Doc: Or How I Became an Apocaloptimist (6:30), how AI has developed over the past ten years (10:12), and why the most powerful figures in tech are preparing for doomsday scenarios (13:15). Then, we unpack why the AI arms race is being driven by the wrong incentives (15:45), the ‘balance sheet of benefits’ that shapes their thinking about AGI (24:30), and the unsettling lack of control they exercise over their own nascent systems (33:55).

On the back-half, we talk about Chat GPT’s role in the devastating death of teenager Adam Raine (40:30) [content warning], Tristan’s early ethical concerns about technology as a Stanford graduate working at Google (48:34), and the rewiring he attempted as part of the widely-seen 2020 documentary The Social Dilemma (53:00). To close, Harris outlines his tech safety practices to protect our future on the planet (1:08:05), top leaders’ prognostications of (p)doom at the hands of AI (1:10:43), and, as a counter, the ‘human movement’ that he believes can lead us to a narrow path toward a better future (1:17:30).

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