Julie Pierce

Kay Daigle

There is an art to giving and receiving feedback. Leaders benefit from feedback by growing as leaders themselves and helping those who work with them. Executive Coach Julie Pierce joins Kay Daigle to discuss how and why to give and receive feedback. Julie’s suggestions are very practical and transferable to any situation.

If you have been blindsided by critical feedback (as most of us as leaders have at some point), Julie will help you deal with that and learn to embrace it.

Julie provides great practical suggestions to help you start giving and receiving feedback so that you reach your full potential as a leader.

If you prefer, this episode is available to watch on video.

00:21 Introduction to Julie & why feedback is hard

Kay >> Hi. I’m Kay Daigle. Welcome to the Beyond Ordinary Women Podcast as well as video. My special guest today is Julie Pierce. Welcome, Julie.

Julie >> Thanks for having me, Kay.

Kay >> Oh, we’re so happy that you’re here today and that we’re having this conversation. We’re going to be talking about the art of giving and receiving feedback, and that goes along with your role. You’re an executive coach. You develop leaders one-on-one through coaching. You consult with teams; you communicate with groups; you do all that kind of leadership communication stuff.

You can read more about Julie on her bio on our website at beyondordinarywomen.org. And Julie, I have your website as JuliePierceLeadership.com. Is that it?

Julie >> Yes, that’s me.

Kay >> And Pierce is P I E R C E, right?

Julie >> Yes.

Kay >> Is there more than one way to spell Pierce?

Julie >> There are a lot of different ways, but the best way is pie.

Kay >> That’s good.

Julie >> About right. I mean, that’s one of my favorites, so that’s good.

Kay >> Well, today we are talking about feedback. And as Julie wrote in her notes to me, “Is feedback the other F word?” And why do you say that? Because we hate feedback? Because it’s tough? Why do you feel that way about it?

Julie >> You know, I say it that way, and obviously I’m joking! And yet there’s a little bit of truth behind every joke, right? Because we all are so scared of getting any kind of feedback because feedback has become this dirty word. Where we immediately assume it’s going to be this deep cutting criticism that is just going to cut to our core instead of this life-giving catalyst for our growth.

And so if we can shift our mindset around it, and if we can get some skills about how to give and receive feedback, it really can be one of the key things that just unlocks our potential and really what God has for us and for those we lead. So it’s really critical, and yet we just have that often had such terrible experiences,

Quite honestly, like each one of us probably has a horror story to tell about someone who offered to give us some feedback, and really they just wanted to beat us up a little bit.

And so that’s often we have just a little bit of trauma in our background from feedback. And so we just say, “Oh, never mind, I’m not going to touch that with a ten foot pole.” So I think if we can get the skills and if we can shift our mindset about how we think about it, it really can unlock some amazing growth process.

Kay >> Right. Well, you know, speaking of people having that kind of reaction, I remember that years ago I handed out to some Bible study leaders like a self-evaluation and I got feedback from one of my friends who said so-and-so was really complaining about it because she said, “This is just like a job evaluation.” And she was just really put out over the whole thing.

So I never quite did that same thing again because once I got that kind of feedback about it, it was like, “I guess I’ll just stay away from that, you know?”

Julie >> Yeah. And again, everybody’s come in with their own stories. Their own awful experiences they’ve had about it. And so again, really, if we can just change our mindset, change our thinking, about it.

Then really think about giving and receiving feedback as just this key essential ingredient for our growth and for us to step into our potential and for the people on our team as well, then it is no longer, you know, the other F word, and now it’s just really this life-giving, necessary element of our leadership.

Kay >> You think we’re afraid of what we think’s going to happen?

Julie >> I think we’re afraid of a lot of things. Well, I think the biggest thing is honestly, we want people to like us. And so I’m afraid to give any feedback because I don’t want you to be put out with me or not like me any more because of what I just said. So we really, we want people to like us.

And we’re also afraid to receive feedback because we want people to like us. You know, like I don’t want you to see anything wrong with what I did and now think that maybe I’m not good enough for this role or I’m not, you know—whatever all the things in our minds.

And I also think, again, like we just talked about, you know, we’ve got some of those previous experiences, you know, and so that’s coming to the table, too. And so we’re a little afraid of history repeating itself. And so that’s where those skills really come in.

And again, just changing our mindset and seeing those conversations as really a window to growth and to what God might have next for us.

Kay >> And it’s hard to grow if you really don’t have any idea how you need to grow.

Julie >> Yes. Yes, that’s a great word.

Kay >> It’s just sort of like you’re just kind of . . . And of course, I feel like and because I have been like this, I feel like so many of us have imposter syndrome. We’re just so afraid that somebody is going to unmask us and we’re going to find out that we don’t know what we’re doing, that we’re just incapable.

And so if we invite that in, that’s stupid. I mean, why would I want that? I don’t want to be unmasked, to let everybody know that I have no business doing what I think I’m supposed to do in this position.

Julie >> Yes. You’re absolutely right. That’s 100% true. That imposter syndrome prevents us from wanting to hear any of that. When the truth is, of course, none of us know everything about what we’re doing. None of us have it all figured out. You know, why do we keep trying to walk around as if we do? None of us have it all figured out.

Nobody has arrived. We’re all beginners in something. And the sooner we, like, accept that and are okay with that it has nothing to do with my calling. It has nothing to do with my value or worth. And yeah, we’re all kind of walking around figuring it out as we go along.

And so you’re right. I think that imposter syndrome that we all adapt sometimes really does set us back in the feedback department.

Kay >> So why is feedback so important? Why are we talking about that today?

Julie >> Well, like I said, it’s not only important for us, but it’s also essential for the people we lead.

I think, you know, we kind of go into one of two. They’re the spectrum of feedback. We either go into—we’re hypercritical and we you know, just pick apart every little thing.

Or we go to the other side of the spectrum. We’re just radio silent and everything’s great. You’re doing great, and we never give any feedback at all.

If we gave just consistent, ongoing feedback to those that we lead, we would see exponential growth happen. And also, if we invited that consistent, ongoing feedback for ourselves, the lid would be taken off our potential as well.

And so it really is one of just the key catalytic ingredients that takes us from here to our God-given potential.

Kay >> And so let’s start with how we give feedback to others, particularly since our audience in many cases is leaders. As a leader how do we give feedback to those whom we serve and minister to—like the woman who felt like I was just giving her some sort of a job evaluation instead of a self-evaluation for her to work through.

How do we do that well with those that we serve?

Julie >> Yeah, great question. Well, I think there’s a couple of foundational pieces that have to be there.

And one is a foundational level of trust between you and me on our team. Right? And so that comes through developing relationships with people, you know, all the things that we know to be true, you know, in any relationship, right? Is that we want to really know each other.

And what do they need to know about me as a leader? They need to know that I am for them, and that I will do anything to help them be crazy successful in their role.

And they need to know that I know them and I see them. So all of those things have to be in place right? That relational foundation, that foundation of trust between us.

Then I think another kind of foundational thing that has to be there before we even get into the skills of how to give it, is that there needs to be kind of a level set—sometimes even hitting the reset button, you know, on our culture of our team saying—hey, we’re going to be a culture, a coaching culture. We’re going to be a culture that we grow as a team together.

We want to get better in not only our skills, but in our leadership, because that’s going to help us step towards our God-given potential. And one of the ways we do that is through consistent feedback.

And so we just like reset, like, “Hey, this is just who we are as a team, who we are as a ministry, and who we are as an organization. As we are going to be growing together, we don’t ever want to arrive. We always want to be getting better in our skills and in our leadership.

“And so one of the ways is we’re just going to give each other feedback on how things are going so that we can improve for the people that we’re leading and serving.” Right?

So I think if we can do those two foundational things of just building relationship in order to build trust, and then also kind of resetting, “Hey, we as a team, this is who we are and this is how we’re going to grow together.” That really sets us up well to then actually start giving the feedback.

And so one of the things when I think about giving feedback, I think there’s a few things that need to be at play.

One, we need to give concise feedback, and it also needs to be specific, but that’s hard for us. That’s hard for us to be specific. And it also needs to be sincere. So concise, specific and sincere.

Now, what do I mean by those words? Concise, we do not need to write them a five page bullet-pointed message about that tiny thing that needs to be improved most often. It needs to just be a quick comment: “Hey, I noticed this. Would you try this next time?” “Hey, what did you think about that? How can we improve that next time?”

Right? Just a quick conversation, concise.

And it also needs to be specific. You and I both know there is nothing worse than, you know, working on a project, launching something new. And you ask someone, “Hey, what did you think about that? I’d love to hear any feedback you have to say.”

And then they go, “Oh, it was great.” That doesn’t help me. Not it. Not a darn bit. So we need to be specific in our feedback and say specifically what worked, what went right.

And then we also need to be sincere. We don’t need to be telling people, “Oh, you did a good job,” when everybody else around them is going, “Oh, no, that was terrible.”

We need to be sincere. And that being sincere, we’re laughing about it. But being sincere and honest and authentic about it builds trust. Because if everybody around you is watching, you go, “Oh, that was good,” when everybody around you knows that was terrible.

Yeah, that breaks trust with them, right? It breaks trust on the team. And so we really have to be concise specific and sincere in our feedback. And we want to do that with both praise and correction.

Sometimes we tend to only do one or the other, right? And we need to be real consistent in giving both praise and correction.

I’m not talking about compliment sandwich. Like that’s not what I’m talking about.

I’m talking about where when we see something great we say it. We don’t save it for our meeting. We don’t save it for some other time. We don’t think, “Oh, what? I mean, they know they’re great. If I just go around praising them all the time, then they’re just going to get a big head and they’re going to be so polite.”

Come on! Most people on our teams are so beat up by life, the world, all that. We can’t overpraise people like, let’s just complement them. You know, we don’t have to be have scarcity mentality when it comes to praise.

And then when it comes to correction, sometimes we can be real scarce with that. Oh, we don’t like it but again, if we built that foundation of relationship and trust and if we’ve set the tone, “Hey, we’re going to be given that consistent feedback all the time.”

Then it becomes, “Oh, okay. Well, of course that’s going to get course corrected along the way.”

Kay, the story I think of is—I played sports growing up, and what the listeners can’t see through the video is that when I have shoes on, I’m over six feet tall. So there was no question that I was going to play basketball whenever I was a little girl.

So I played a lot of basketball. But I just think about my high school coach, Coach Sims, who she was just a firecracker. When I think about the kind of feedback she gave for a basketball game, I’ll just well, I’ll tell you what would be absurd to me. If Coach Sims, you know, we’re playing a game, whatever. And if she were just silent on the sideline and like after the game was just quiet about what happened, whatever, you know, it’s just another game.

And then if later on in track season, because I went to a small school, she was also my track coach. If later on in track season, months later, if she came up to me and said, “Hey, Julie, you know that, remember that second game, the second quarter in that game, that third play where you did not block that girl out for that rebound.

“Do you remember that? Well, here’s what you should have done. You really should have moved in quicker because, you know, she’s always coming around that weak side. You should have moved it, blocked her out and then you could have had 20 more rebounds in that game.”

Like if she had given me that feedback in track season?

I don’t even remember that game, much less that play! What are you talking about? I could have really increased my rebounding percentage for the season if you told me back then.

And that is exactly what we do in leadership. Like we hold something for maybe like the end of the project or like if you’re, if you do performance reviews, we’ll save it for the performance review.

And it’s like, that would have been really helpful six months ago when it happened.

And so what we can take away from a Coach Sims and that kind of, you know, basketball analogy.

If she was coaching us and giving us feedback in practice when we were watching the game film to prep for the game, during warmups, during the game, you better believe she was giving us some feedback, not just during timeouts, but also as the play was happening.

She was giving us feedback sitting on the bench, and she was giving us feedback after the game on the bus ride home. You know, she’s constantly giving us feedback, right? Praise and correction. And it was concise. She was not like giving us a big sermon in the middle of a game about a play. It was concise and quick and specific. Right?

And so we will give that kind of consistent feedback ongoing as things are happening. Live time we will see the confidence grow in our team as they grow in those skills as we’re cheering for them. “Yes, that was amazing. Did you just see what happened?” Right?

So I think there’s just so much when it comes to the skill of giving feedback that if we will keep in mind that consistency and praise and correction being concise, specific and sincere because we have their best in mind. Because we want them to be crazy successful and to step into their potential, their God-given potential that God has designed in them.

Can you tell I’m passionate about it, Kay?

Kay >> But absolutely. Well, let’s talk a little bit about just women’s ministry because I know that you were very involved. You were the—what exactly was your title?

Julie >> What was my title? Well, my title was Directional Leader to Women. And before me, Sue Edwards had been the Pastor to Women. And I just felt like that title—the shoes were too big. So I changed her role and led the Women’s Ministry for quite some time.

Kay >> Okay, so how do you—this specifically for probably some of our audience—if you’re working with a team, how do you get feedback from them?

Or possibly if you’re leading a Bible study, what are your ideas for ways that those women out there who are in charge of these things and maybe have never been even in a job where they got any feedback?

How would you suggest that they move forward with getting feedback from their volunteers as well as their audience?

Julie >> You know, for getting feedback and receiving feedback one of my favorite questions to ask is, “Do you have any feedback for me?” And sometimes you know, the answer we’ll get from people is “No, that was great.”

You know, that’s the answer we get. And so we have to really prime the pump for what kind of feedback we’re looking for.

And so we use a couple of our tools from giving feedback to do the same thing. We say “Hey, I would really like some feedback on the flow of how Bible study goes today. Could you kind of notice and pay attention to kind of how the schedule flows today? How we transition in and out of elements and activities today? And maybe actually just watch it for this month.

“And then I’m going to ask you at the end of the month to share some of those thoughts with me, because I’d really love to hear what your thoughts are. And if there’s anything that we can do to change it, to make it better for the ladies, or if there’s anything that we could do to really make it better for the leaders, I’d love to hear that feedback.”

So what did I do? I asked for it ahead of time, so I didn’t put her on the spot. Sometimes people hate being put on the spot.

Secondly, I asked for specific feedback, I told her what to be looking for, right? And then I told her when I was going to follow up with her and get that back from her.

Right? And then again, I’m building trust. When I actually do follow up with her and ask her, “Okay, I’m ready to hear. What do you what do you have for me? What did you notice? What did you see? I’d love to hear.” Right?

So that’s like one tiny example but I think again, with any team, we can always just say, ”Hey, I want us to be constantly improving and I want to hear your thoughts and your feedback for me on how I’m doing, on how things are going.

What you’re noticing that I maybe am missing. And so I’m going to be asking you every week. I’m going to be asking you in my email that I send out. I’ll also be asking you in our monthly leaders’ meeting. I’m going to be asking you to give me some of that feedback because your voice really matters.”

And so I think if you let them know ahead of time, hey, here’s a couple of points where I’m for sure going to be asking you for that feedback and here is specifically what I’m looking for.

It really helps people then to be able to give that good constructive feedback. Those are just a couple of ideas. What do you think? What have you seen work?

Kay >> Well, I think those are really good ideas. I mean, I always found that when I was in a meeting with my main team that I just always would ask questions about how do you think, you know, we would sort of debrief on anything generally.

And so that not only helped give me feedback, but we gave one another feedback as we talked about how an event went, how Bible study went—those kinds of things. And that was always really helpful.

I can’t think of anything that we didn’t. We would hand out sort of a survey and with very specific questions for the women in the Bible study and get their feedback from how that went.

I’ve always felt like the hole in the whole thing was that anybody that had left and not made it through to the end of Bible study, we really didn’t know why they left and we didn’t know what their feedback would be.

And so that’s a problem. I mean, sometimes you hear from those people and you find out, but they’re not there just with the group to be able to do it and give us the specific things that we’re asking for.

Julie >> Yeah, that’s good. I love these surveys and I love having an intentional debrief at the end of each program ministry season, you know, whatever that ending is.

And I also love—there are definitely ways that you can follow up with people who kind of fade away and somehow—whether that’s your leaders following up with them and just asking a couple of questions because they had a closer relationship perhaps than maybe you did if you weren’t facilitating the table.

So I love asking those intentional questions. I also love asking for that feedback along the way.

Sometimes when we wait until the end—and we should always debrief at the end, always, always, always, and then take those notes and then pull them back out whenever we’re starting to plan that thing again. Right? So that we can make those changes that were so important to us as opposed to going, “What was it that somebody said?” You know, we just don’t remember.

But I do love finding those points along the way where we’re getting that consistent feedback so that we don’t have to wait until next year to make that change that could have a really big impact, could improve, could make things better for a group of people. So I love those ideas.

One of the other things that just talking about receiving feedback made me think of is, especially when that’s maybe hard for us because we’ve had some not great experiences with receiving feedback in the past.

There’s a couple of things that I’ve taught particularly younger leaders to do, because sometimes getting feedback is real, real hard for younger leaders.

And so I’ve said, “Hey, you know, if you will just be the one to ask for the feedback. And again, doing it and asking for that specific feedback depending on what’s going on.”

And then also— “Whenever someone does take a chance and give you some feedback, whether it’s praise or correction, say, ‘Hey, thank you so much. Thank you for taking the time to think about that, to give me some feedback that would empower my growth. Thank you.’”

So always start with the thank you. Even if you think that’s ridiculous or I’m probably not going to, I’m telling them thank you does a lot in building relationship, boosting your credibility, all of those kinds of things.

And then I really do like to think it through. Okay, is there something from that feedback from that constructive feedback that I need to just apply and try?

I don’t have to commit to it forever, but do I need to just apply it and try it and see if that will help me, help the audience, help the group that I’m leading—whatever it is.

And then I like to circle back with the person who gave me feedback and I’d say, “Hey, thanks again for giving me that feedback. I tried that at my next meeting and it was actually a lot better. I really appreciate you letting me know that and, and believing in me and coaching me up in that moment.” Right?

So anyway, those are just a few things in addition to just receiving feedback and how to do that and in a life giving way.

Kay >> Actually recently I gave some feedback to somebody, and I was sort of afraid to give it to her. You know, I don’t know her well, and I was a little uncertain about doing it, and she was just so thankful. She just kept thanking me. She thanked me many, many times. And I really did appreciate that because I felt like I was actually helping her rather than upsetting her.

And so that was really great that she even came back to it later. You know, it wasn’t just when we met that she thanked me. It was later on she would comment about it: “I just want to thank you again for being willing to come and talk to me about that.”

And, you know, I went in with a couple of women praying for me as I did this because they knew this was kind of a big deal, and I was really appreciative of that, too.

And I would suggest that to any leader who is really concerned about what they’ve got to say in their feedback—be sure that you’ve got others praying for you. You don’t have to tell them exactly what the person did. You don’t even have to tell them who it is. And you can say, “I have to give some feedback to somebody and I’m just a little nervous about it. And I would really like you to pray for me.”

Julie >> That’s such a good reminder. That’s such a good practical thing—just having that prayer support around us, whenever we go into any of those conversations that can feel hard or difficult for us for whatever reason—to ask for prayer support to just cover that conversation.

I was also thinking to about, you know, again, this goes back to mindset. When I get stuck—and now I’m talking about with a team member or someone in my sphere of leadership that I’m responsible for. When I find myself getting stuck and hesitant to give them the feedback that I know that they need, it’s because I’m making it about me.

But when I make it about me, I make it about how are they going to receive it? What are they going to think of me? What are they are they going to get are they going to like me? You know, all the things I make it about me. Oh, well, I wouldn’t have wanted someone to say that to me their best.

But as a leader, it is always about the other person. It is always about bringing out the best in the people we lead. It is always about helping them step in to their potential. And so when my focus is on that, I can push past the awkwardness, the butterflies in my stomach, the concern, whatever! I can push past all of that because I want the best for them.

Yeah. And I think about the countless leaders who have had those sharpening conversations with me, who have given me feedback. What? “Oh, you got to fix this.” Like “you can’t keep,” or “that was terrible.” Like all of those, right? They did it because they saw potential in me, and they didn’t want me to stay there and keep doing that thing.

And so if you notice inside of you that you’re getting stuck or hesitant or just like, ah, super afraid of having that feedback conversation, remember, if you’ve got relationship with them where you’ve established that trust.

If they know, “Hey, this is what we do, we consistently give all kinds of feedback to each other both ways in order to help us reach our potential,” it won’t come as a surprise that you’re having that conversation.

And also they’ll remember as you’re telling them, “Hey, I wanted to because I don’t want anything to get in the way of you stepping into your potential.”

Kay >> Yeah. I think that your emphasis on this is what it’s going to do for you. If we talk about this. This is going to be good for you. It’s going to be good for what you’re doing. And you’re going to grow as a leader, grow as a person, grow as a disciple.

Julie >> Yes.

Kay >> All of those things are just really important. And I love the way that you emphasized that. And I know that’s something that I can I can grow on from what you’re telling me.

Julie >> Well, all of us can grow with this. I’m right there with you, Kay.

Kay >> I mean, it’s really easy to forget after a while. You’re just kind of going along and you kind of forget that you need to be about this.

And so if nothing else, I hope that our conversation helps those of you out there realize that maybe you’ve done some of this, but you’re kind of now—things seem to be going well and you’re kind of forgetting to do it. That it’s something that needs to be a consistent part of your ministry, part of your leadership.

Julie >> Yes. That’s so good, Kay.

Kay >> Do you have any other final words for those who are out there? What would you say to somebody who is struggling with some feedback that they got that they felt like was particularly critical?

Julie >> I would say first to pray, Lord, help me receive what of this I need to really receive. The second thing I would do is I would think through, okay, what about this feedback? Really is helpful for my growth and what of this do I need to let go of so it doesn’t impede my growth?

And when I say it that way, what I mean is, you know, sometimes we can get critical feedback that’s just critical. It’s not constructive. It’s not coaching, right? It’s just critical.

And it’s either someone’s preference or they were just having an awful day or we are not their cup of tea. And so they just don’t particularly like anything that we do. And so, sometimes the feedback we get, it’s not constructive or coaching, it’s just critical.

And so you have to just kind of think that through and go, okay, I’ve got to, you know, consider the source. I’ve got to think through what’s going on with them. And I also have to think through, okay, is there anything in this that will actually fuel my growth and then I have to choose to release the rest of it.

Now, that might mean releasing their tone, releasing their approach, really all the things it might even be that I need to put up a boundary with that person so that they’re not giving me so much critical feedback anymore, you know, like whatever it may be. But I think first praying and asking the Lord help me receive from this what you want me to hear.

And then secondly, just thinking through what from this actually is for me and one of this is just critical and maybe mean spirited and maybe not for me at all.

Kay >> Yeah. I think those are good words. Those are good ideas. And, you know, I’m sure you like many have had some pretty harsh criticism before. I think the thing that bothered me the most was when I read somebody who wrote down on something like, “You know, I just don’t like her,” or something like that.

I mean, that’s, that’s not really feedback.

Julie >> Yeah. It’s not. Well, and that’s exactly right. It is not constructive coaching feedback to help me step into my potential. It’s just being critical. It’s just criticism—and criticism for the sake of putting someone down or expressing a preference is not beneficial. That doesn’t help me grow. And the truth of the matter is, you and I both know we are again, we’re not everybody’s cup of tea and that’s okay.

Just like everybody isn’t my cup of tea either, right? That is okay. Not everybody is going to love my leadership choices. Not everybody is going to love my leadership style. That is all right.

And when I release that and get okay inside of myself with that, hey, I am following God’s invitation for me in this season. I am being faithful to steward the resources he has given me, including the people. And I am being faithful to steward the gifts and the calling and the skills and the story that he has given to me.

And so if I am being faithful with all those things, I can release the fact that not everybody is going to like me and not everybody is going to think, “Oh, I’m so glad Julie showed up to lead today.” Like—that is okay. I may not be a ten on everyone’s survey, and that’s okay.

And so I think distinguishing between what is actually like coaching constructive feedback to help me reach my potential, and what’s just critical, and what’s just criticism—and releasing the criticism. Don’t let that like seep in and really choosing to focus on, hey, what’s going to be constructive and help fuel my growth?

Kay >> I think those are great words. Thank you so much for joining us, Julie. We appreciate your expertise and your wisdom.

Julie >> Well, Kay, it is always a delight to be with you and I am so thankful for your wisdom, your leadership, your example. You have been a mentor and a pioneer in so many ways. We’re so thankful for you. So thanks for inviting me to just partner with you in this.

Kay >> Thank you. And we will hope to see you again soon on another leadership topic.

Julie >> Sounds great.

Kay >> You can find Julie’s website, as I said, at Juliepierceleadership.com. You can contact her there if you’re interested in having some coaching done or just some help with some leadership stuff. She is an expert on those things, and I know that she would love to hear from you.

You also can watch or hear our other episodes that have to do with leadership skills, which is really what we’ve been talking about today, skills that we need to have as leaders.

And you can find those at our website BeyondOrdinaryWomen.org. On our menu dropdown on Resources. You can go to Leadership Skills and just browse around and see what else would be helpful to you as a leader.

So until next time, we’re so glad that you joined us. And thank you again, Julie.