Be More Selective, Not More Careful: Hot Takes from the Avalanche Industry 

Interview Highlights:

- A terrain-first avalanche education reset: clear language, fewer false certainties, better decision framing.

- Real-world mentorship you can actually build: “friendtorship” structures, debrief prompts, and partner feedback that scales from rec to pro.

- Inclusion that’s operational, not performative: how All In Ice Fest trains guides and changes who feels welcome (and safer) in mountain spaces.

Jason Antin sits down with Kristin Arnold and Sheldon Kerr of Moxie for a candid, wide-ranging conversation that starts at All In Ice Fest at the Ouray Ice Park—and quickly moves into some very real hot takes on the snow and avalanche industry. Tune in to hear Kristin and Sheldon pull no punches as they share experience-backed perspectives on avalanche education, decision-making, and the systems we’ve built around them.

Along the way, they unpack how All In has grown into a major gathering designed for BIPOC, adaptive, LGBTQ2SIA+, and neurodivergent communities—and how centering training and leadership development within those communities reshapes what access, authority, and representation can look like in the mountains.

The conversation then drills into the core of their teaching philosophy: terrain management first, valuing consequence over likelihood, and acknowledging that humans are fundamentally bad at probabilistic thinking (and that this is not a moral failing). They explore “friendtorship” as a more honest alternative to the mythical mentorship pipeline, the outsized impact of short, consistent debriefs, and why being more selective consistently beats trying to be more careful in complex snowpacks.

They wrap with a series of lightning-round moments—including a spirited debate on beacon harness vs. pocket carry, why avalanche accident analysis often gets overcomplicated, and each guest’s Personal Disaster Flag: the human-factor tendencies they actively manage to stay sharp in the field.

About our guests:

Kristin Arnold (she/her) and Sheldon Kerr (she/her), from Ridgway, CO, are the owners and lead guides of Moxie Mountain Guides.  As of spring 2025, they are 2 of 19 total women AMGA/IFMGA guides in the U.S.*  

Kristin and Sheldon started Moxie in January of 2023. As Moxie, they’ve guided skiing on Chilean volcanos, taught rock climbing clinics all over the Western US, built risk management plans and forecasted avalanches for Colorado silver mines, trained US Special Forces teams in mountain skills, instructed professional avalanche courses all over the country, and worked with small businesses and national organizations to improve their diversity, equity, and inclusion programs.

Both Arnold and Kerr are also on the Instructor Team for the American Mountain Guide Association, staff members of the American Institute of Avalanche Research and Education, and graduates of Habit Queer’s Fitness Beyond the Binary certification program. They have also completed training through Paradox Sports in working with adaptive athletes.

Resources discussed in the episode: 

All In Ice FestMoxie Mountain Guide

Thanks to the sponsors of the show.

Legacy Sponsors:

Darren Johnson Avalanche Education Memorial Fund

AVSS

Drone Amplified

Partner Sponsors:

CIL Avalanche

Safeback

onX Backcountry

Episode Sponsor:

Arva

Music: Ketsa

Artwork: Mike Tea 

Production: Caleb Merrill, Bob Keating 

Interview Highlights: 

- Coming home each day is always the goal, and debriefing seems to be a helpful tool in adding expertise to our experience. 

- Debriefing can look many different ways. It can happen in real time during an outing, known as a rolling debrief, or it can happen at the end of  the day, and even at a later time. 

- Ian and Sara posit that our debriefing skills are in need of attention, and that different personal and environmental factors impact how well we perform this critical task.

- While professionals participating in a debrief often have a defined leader, recreational users benefit from peer leadership.

About our guests:

Sara Boilen holds a doctorate in clinical psychology from the University of Denver (2011). Professionally, she works with individuals who have had interactions with the justice system often in the spirit of helping to make sense of behavior and context. She has taken her professional interests and merged it with her recreational interests to contribute to the field of avalanche sciences in her free time. She is specifically interested in human-related problems and solutions. Dr. Boilen has presented at seven Snow and Avalanche Workshops and at ISSW in Norway. She has written articles for The Avalanche Review and was a co-author on the recently proposed conceptual framework for human factors in avalanche terrain. She lives in Northwest Montana and will carry dessert for you to the top of any mountain her skills will take her to.

Ian McCammon, often considered the godfather of human factors in avalanche education, has a unique background with a foot in scientific research and another in backcountry exploration. With formal training in physics, materials science, and engineering, Ian started in R&D before becoming deeply involved in avalanche education in the 1990s. Following the loss of his friend Steve Carruthers in an avalanche, he was driven to study how experienced individuals make fatal decisions despite knowing better. His work has since shaped modern avalanche education and risk management strategies.

Thanks to the sponsors of the show.

Legacy Sponsors:

Darren Johnson Avalanche Education Memorial Fund

AVSS

Drone Amplified

Partner Sponsors:

CIL Avalanche

Safeback

onX Backcountry

Episode Sponsor:

Snowbound Solutions

Music: Ketsa

Artwork: Mike Tea 
Production: Caleb Merrill, Bob Keating

Join us for our fourth installment of Slabs ‘n Sluff with Sara Boilen and guest co-host, Sean Zimmerman-Wall! Sara and Sean review January and take a look at what is coming up for February in the Avalanche Hour Podcast. We also hear an update from Dom. 

Sara Boilen holds a doctorate in clinical psychology from the University of Denver (2011). Professionally, she works with individuals who have had interactions with the justice system often in the spirit of helping to make sense of behavior and context. She has taken her professional interests and merged it with her recreational interests to contribute to the field of avalanche sciences in her free time. She is specifically interested in human-related problems and solutions. Dr. Boilen has presented at seven Snow and Avalanche Workshops and at ISSW in Norway. She has written articles for The Avalanche Review and was a co-author on the recently proposed conceptual framework for human factors in avalanche terrain. She lives in Northwest Montana and will carry dessert for you to the top of any mountain her skills will take her to.

Sean Zimmerman-Wall works to build connections across the avalanche community through ski patrolling, teaching and occasional guiding gigs.  Determined to leave the industry better than he found it, he believes he can grow alongside others and develop strong relationships that last.

Episode Summary:

- Discussing the impact of Traumatic Brain Injuries on our community members

- Review of the last 6-8 weeks of programming, highlighting interviews that captured the hosts imagination or got us thinking

- Digging through the mailbag for some gems

- Recent rabbit holes worth exploring

- What’s on deck for the second half of the season

- onX Backcountry Highlight: Caleb x Andy Sovick

Resources Mentioned in the Conversation:

Fatal Occupational Injuries of Avalanche Workers in North America -Ethan Greene, et. al

Assessing and Communicating Likelihood and Probability of Snow Avalanches Scott Thumlert, et. al.

Breaking the Habit of Being Yourself: How to Lose Your Mind and Create a New One- Dr. Joe Dispenza

Quit: The Power of Knowing When to Walk Away- Annie Duke

TBI: Basics

Thanks to the sponsors of the show.

Legacy Sponsors:

Darren Johnson Avalanche Education Memorial Fund

AVSS

Drone Amplified

Partner Sponsors:

CIL Avalanche

Safeback

onX Backcountry

Music: Ketsa

Artwork: Mike Tea 

Production: Caleb Merrill, Bob Keating

Pascal Haegeli’s career path is anything but conventional. After completing his Master’s degree in Switzerland, he moved to Canada in the mid-1990s – where he found the opportunity of a lifetime. There he built an academic career and became a very influential researcher in avalanche risk management, shaping safety practices across North America and beyond.

Today, Pascal is an Associate Professor and Director of the School of Resource and Environmental Management at Simon Fraser University in Vancouver and leads the SFU Avalanche Research Group (SARP). His team’s work spans everything from avalanche forecasting, snowpack and hazard modelling to operational decision-making practices and risk communication.

This spring, Pascal begins an exciting new chapter: returning to Switzerland as Head of Avalanche Research and Prevention at the SLF in Davos. He brings decades of international experience back to where his journey began - strengthening collaboration across the Atlantic.

Interview Highlights:

- How chance, timing, and hard work shaped Pascal’s avalanche career in Canada

- The mission and intention behind the SFU Avalanche Research Group

- Why avalanche research moves slower than the industry – and why that matters

- Why Pascal is returning to Switzerland and what that means for avalanche research in Canada

Resources Cited in Conversation: 

SFU SARP website

PostDoc Position

Thanks to the sponsors of the show.

Legacy Sponsors:

Darren Johnson Avalanche Education Memorial Fund

AVSS

Drone Amplified

Partner Sponsors:

CIL Avalanche

Safeback

onX Backcountry

Episode Sponsor:

Peak Visor

Music: Ketsa

Artwork: Mike Tea 

Production: Caleb Merrill, Bob Keating 

Joe Stock and Luc Mehl have been on many adventures together. Join them for a great conversation about risk management in wild places. In Joe's words: Luc Mehl is one of Alaska’s foremost adventurers, filling the gap between Roman Dial and Dick Griffith. He’s been at the forefront of ski traversing, packrafting, wild ice skating and now wilderness risk management. 

Luc grew up in rural Alaska and has traveled over 10,000 miles of the state by foot, ski, pedal, paddle, and ice skate. Luc's work has earned several national awards, two for The Packraft Handbook, and others for public service in boating safety and leadership in wilderness risk management. Luc's business, Triple Point Training, provides wilderness risk management and rescue training. 

Luc’s Triple Point Training: https://triplepointtraining.com 

Luc’s Podcast and blog: https://thingstolucat.com/ 

Interview highlights

• Luc grew up in rural Alaska and it shaped his life ahead. 

• Luc shares the story of a few of his big mountain ski trips including road to road ski traverses of Denal and Mount Logan. 

• Over the past 20 year Luc’s relationship with risk has evolved from pushing the envelope of what’s possible to finding peace with his place in the mountains. Part of this evolution included life-changing experiences with avalanches that have left him no longer comfortable going into avalanche terrain. He’s now at the cutting edge of wild ice skating and ice rescue. 

• Our conversation concludes with his new projects and work in wilderness risk management. 

Thanks to the sponsors of the show.

Legacy Sponsors:

⁠Darren Johnson Avalanche Education Memorial Fund⁠

⁠AVSS⁠

⁠Drone Amplified⁠

Partner Sponsors:

⁠CIL Avalanche⁠

⁠Safeback⁠

⁠onX Backcountry⁠ Use code: avalanchehour for 30% off a year of onX Backcountry Elite or Premium Membership.

Episode Sponsor:

Propagation Labs

Music: ⁠Ketsa⁠

Artwork: ⁠Mike Tea ⁠

Production: Caleb Merrill, ⁠Bob Keating

“Science is What We Do to Keep from Lying to Ourselves” ~ Richard Feynman. 

In this conversation, Bruce Jamieson is back to interview Dr. Karl Birkeland and Joe Stock for a deep dive into snow science. Jamieson brings us with him on a snow science journey alongside two of the industry’s top authors and experts on snow avalanches. Their conversations comment on the importance of the science side of the industry as “understanding how things work allows us to anticipate conditions that are outside of our experience.” 

Interview Highlights:

- Stopping to dig a snow pit or review & interpret observations helps groups engage with the snowpack, fosters curiosity, and encourages collaborative decision-making

- Long-term practitioners often become humble and curious due to encountering surprises and unknowns in avalanche work

- The amount of science needed depends on the individual and their goals; more knowledge can help practitioners and recreationists make better decisions, especially in unfamiliar conditions   

- People benefit from a tiered training framework: core skills in main courses coupled with more science topics through CPD and ISSWs. 

Joe Stock is an IFMGA mountain guide who has distilled decades of skiing, climbing, guiding and teaching avalanche courses into a step-by-step system outlined in The Avalanche Factor - a handbook for recreational skiers and climbers who want to get into backcountry avalanche terrain using their own power.

Karl Birkeland’s The Starting Zone is an e-book specifically targeting avalanche professionals and advanced recreationists. It’s an essential resource for avalanche professionals, blending cutting-edge science with practical avalanche application.

Thanks to the sponsors of the show.

Legacy Sponsors:

Darren Johnson Avalanche Education Memorial Fund

AVSS

Drone Amplified

Partner Sponsors:

CIL Avalanche

Safeback

onX Backcountry

Episode Sponsor:

Open Snow

Music: Ketsa

Artwork: Mike Tea 

Production: Caleb Merrill, Bob Keating

Morgan Dinsdale is a professional ski guide, writer, holistic nutritionist and the Founder and Executive Director of the State of the Snowpack, a public safety non-profit dedicated to connecting avalanche professionals with their local communities across the mountain communities of Canada.

A Canadian Ski Guide Association (CSGA) Level 2 Ski Guide and the first Level 2 ever elected to the CSGA Board of Directors, Morgan spends her winters guiding for Whistler Heli-Skiing and Selkirk Snowcat Skiing. Her career blends her deep love for skiing with heartfelt storytelling, mentorship, and a passion for creating more connection, compassion, playfulness and transparency in the backcountry. 

Outside of guiding, Morgan is a devoted long-distance thru-hiker, having walked thousands of miles around the world, from New Zealand's Te Araroa to the Continental Divide Trail. She feels most herself in truly wild places, often with her beloved dog, Teddy Bear, by her side. 

In a profession often defined by grit and bravado, Morgan brings her own form of mountain strength—rooted in tenderness, intuition, mindfulness and the color pink. She believes femininity and wildness belong together, and that leadership in the mountains can be both grounded and graceful.

Interview Highlights: 

• Morgan Dinsdale shares the history of her non-profit, State of The Snowpack

• Morgan shares how her team at Selkirk Snowcat Skiing re-created The Stress Continuum to fit their decision-making model in their guide meetings

• Morgan shares some profound wisdom from a recent near miss avalanche accident

We would like to dedicate this show to Judson Wright, co-founder of State of The Snowpack with Morgan who just passed away of a heart attack on Saturday, November 15, 2025. 

Thanks to the sponsors of the show.

Legacy Sponsors:

Darren Johnson Avalanche Education Memorial Fund

AVSS

Drone Amplified

Partner Sponsors:

CIL Avalanche

Safeback

onX Backcountry

Episode Sponsor:

IPA Collective

Music: Ketsa

Artwork: Mike Tea 

Production: Caleb Merrill, Bob Keating 

In this episode, Matthias Walcher sits down with Jürg Schweizer for a deep dive on a career focused on snow science. 

Jürg Schweizer studied environmental physics at ETH Zurich and joined SLF, at that time still up on the Weissfluhjoch, after completing his PhD. He spent a formative year conducting research at Rogers Pass in Canada. He rose from researcher to head of the world’s most renowned institute in the field, leading pioneering work that shaped modern avalanche science. Along the way, he mentored dozens of young scientists who now advance our understanding of snow and avalanches worldwide.

Interview highlights:

- How avalanche research has changed over the decades.

- What it takes to build a career in avalanche science.

- Why 4,000 feet of snow pits still hold surprises.

- The importance of good mentorship.

Resources cited in the conversation:

https://www.instagram.com/whiteriskslf/?hl=en

https://www.instagram.com/slfdavos/?hl=en

Links to many of his publications can be found here: https://www.slf.ch/de/mitarbeitende/schweizj

Thanks to the sponsors of the show.

Legacy Sponsors:

Darren Johnson Avalanche Education Memorial Fund

AVSS

Drone Amplified

Partner Sponsors:

CIL Avalanche

Safeback

onX Backcountry

Episode Sponsor:

Open Snow

Music: Ketsa

Artwork: Mike Tea 

Production: Caleb Merrill, Bob Keating

In memory of Judson Wright, this is a special re-airing of a Season 6 interview with him. 

Judson was a father and a husband first, and the founder and lead guide of Kootenay Backcountry Guides.  He was the co-founder of State of the Snowpack, and lead guide of White Grizzly Snowcat Skiing.  He was also the most enthusiastic crossing guard you ever met.  

Judson guided with the principle that if you are doing it for yourself then you are no longer guiding.   He loved to share the joy of powder skiing and seeing people light up as they fall in love with it.

We’re going to miss you Jud.  Rest in Powder. 

Summary of the Episode: 

- Wisdom shared from years of guiding and moving through the mountains

- Philosophies on good guiding and instruction 

- At the end of the day, it’s just skiing.  We all need to come home to our families.  

The Judson Wright Legacy Fund was established by Judson’s wife Kelly. This fund will support initiatives that reflect Judson’s values, including backcountry awareness and education. Find the fund here: https://ospreycommunityfoundation.ca/funds/judson-wright-legacy-fund/

Resiliency Resources for Grief/Loss Listed in the Episode:

Canada

- Canadian Mountain Community Critical Incident Stress Management (CISM) 

To find out more or get in touch with a Peer Responder: mountaincism.ca, [email protected] or the Dispatch Line (for immediate support): 604-670-2772

- Mountain Muskox 

mountainmuskox.com

- Canadian Mental Health Association (CMHA)

British Columbia Broader Regional Mental Health & Community Resources: bc.cmha.ca

- Center for Loss and Life Transitions

An organization dedicated to helping people who are grieving. Books and resources about grief: centerforloss.com

- MyGrief.ca

MyGrief.ca is an online resource to help people move through their grief from the comfort of their own home, at their own pace. It can help you understand your grief and approach some of the most difficult questions that may arise.

- Lumara Grief & Bereavement Society

A BC based organization that runs programs for youth and families navigating grief and loss: lumarasociety.org/about-us

United States

- The American Avalanche Association Resiliency Project

https://www.americanavalancheassociation.org/resilience-project

- Survivors of Outdoor Adventure Recovery (SOAR)

Instagram page @outdooradventuresandrecovery or website soar4life.org

- American Alpine Club, Climbers Grief Fund

https://americanalpineclub.org/grieffund

- Redside Foundation, supporting guides in MT, ID, CO, WY

https://www.redsidefoundation.org/

- Brooke Shiny Edwards - Resiliency Coach 

https://wildworldwanderings.com/coaching

Thanks to the sponsors of the show.

Legacy Sponsors:

Darren Johnson Avalanche Education Memorial Fund

AVSS

Drone Amplified

Partner Sponsors:

CIL Avalanche

Safeback

onX Backcountry

Music: Ketsa

Artwork: Mike Tea 

Production: Caleb Merrill, Bob Keating 

This panel discussion was part of the Bend Snow & Avalanche Workshop (BendSAW), hosted by the Central Oregon Avalanche Center and originally recorded on November 8th, 2025. The panel brought together Margaret Wheeler, Liz King, Jason Boone and Kevin Grove, moderated by Sara Boilen. 

Dr. Sara Boilen is a psychologist based in Northwest Montana and a familiar voice from Slabs and Sluffs. In this episode, she shares the BendSAW panel on grief and loss in the mountain community that she facilitated. Having known grief from a young age, Sara has built her professional (and personal) life around the hard conversations most people avoid. As part of this community, she aims to move the needle toward greater honesty about the risks we take, deeper connection with our partners in the mountains, and even laughter amidst the pain.

We want to extend a huge thank you to the panelists and everyone who attended BendSAW for bringing and allowing for vulnerability in this great community of ours. 

About the panelists:

- Margaret Wheeler Margaret became the second woman in the US to complete her full AMGA IFMGA guide certification

- Liz King is the Avalanche Program Director at the American Avalanche Institute 

- Jason Boone is a recreational user who took a big risk by getting up on stage

- Kevin Grove is an educator, mentor and deeply rooted in the Central Oregon avalanche community

Resources: 

If you struggle with grief, anxiety, depression, or existential pain from your experiences in the mountains, you’re definitely not alone. We know you’re not alone because there are (more than) four organizations entirely dedicated to helping folks just like you feel better. If you want some support, reach out to one of these great organizations, or a coworker, a friend, or someone in your family, and let them know how you’re doing. 

https://www.mountainmuskox.com/

https://www.americanavalancheassociation.org/resilience-project - Episode Sponsor 

Climbing Grief Fund American Alpine Clubhttps://americanalpineclub.org › grieffund

https://www.redsidefoundation.org/

Thanks to the sponsors of the show.

Legacy Sponsors:

Darren Johnson Avalanche Education Memorial Fund

AVSS

Drone Amplified

Partner Sponsors:

CIL Avalanche

Safeback

onX Backcountry

Episode Sponsor:

A3 Resilience Project 

⁠Propagation Labs⁠

Music: Ketsa

Artwork: Mike Tea 
Production: Caleb Merrill, Bob Keating