Science and experience-built intuition are a composite - they are stronger together than they are separate, especially when we start to see things that we have never seen before. 

Join Gabrielle Antonioli and Karl Birkeland for an expansive conversation on the critical factors we weigh each day: uncertainty, decision-making scales, and a reflective discussion on how we are strongest when we embrace both sides of the avalanche industry. A snow scientist might not make the best guide if they only stay in the lab but field practitioners need a cross-referenced resource to better face & understand an increasingly dynamic and variable snowpack/climate where outliers are increasingly becoming the new normal. These thoughts are what prompted Karl to write The Starting Zone Book for practitioners, scientists, and everyone in between. 

Conversation Highlights:

- There is uncertainty in all of our assessments, but as we better understand the science behind avalanche mechanics, we can better understand the uncertainty that remains in our assessments required to make decisions in avalanche terrain. 

- Science is having a structured process for your curiosity 

- Be a super-forecaster: comfortable with uncertainty and always looking to disprove your hypothesis

- Use your intuition to tell you the snowpack is unstable - collect information that disproves your hypothesis.

- Effect of temperature on dry-slab avalanche mechanics. Assumption: warmth = more reactivity? Not necessarily. 

About our host and guest:

Gabrielle Antonioli is the current director of the Payette Avalanche Center. Her career started with simply being a curious and avid backcountry traveler—and by asking plenty of questions to Karl Birkeland and the forecasters at the GNFAC. She began as an intern at the GNFAC, and rooted a career in teaching recreational and professional avalanche education courses while completing coursework for an MS in snow science. Following that thread of curiosity and interest in snow expanded to forecasting for the Going-to-the-Sun Road, the Bridger-Teton Avalanche Center, and brought her to her current position. She also manages the A3 Resilience Project.

Karl Birkeland has worked with snow and avalanches for the past 45 years, including as a ski patroller, backcountry avalanche forecaster, avalanche researcher, and as the Director of the Forest Service's National Avalanche Center. After retiring from the Forest Service three years ago he set out to - in the words of a friend - ruin a perfectly good retirement by creating an electronic resource for avalanche professionals. Karl has been recognized by his peers with the American Avalanche Association's Bernie Kingery (2008) and Honorary Membership (2024) Awards.

Resources mentioned in the interview:

Conditions for Intuitive Expertise: A Failure to Disagree (Kahneman and Klein)

The Fundamental Processes in Conventional Avalanche Forecasting (Ed LaChapelle) 

Scaling Issues in Snow Hydrology (Gunter Bloschl) 

The Starting Zone - By Karl Birkeland 

Thanks to the sponsors of the show.

Legacy Sponsors:

Darren Johnson Avalanche Education Memorial Fund

AVSS

Drone Amplified

Partner Sponsors:

CIL Avalanche

Safeback

onX Backcountry

Episode Sponsor:

IPA Collective

Music: Ketsa

Artwork: Mike Tea 

Production: Caleb Merrill, Bob Keating

Join us for our fifth installment of Slabs ‘n Sluff with Sara Boilen and the return of co-host, Dom Baker! Sara and Dom discuss hazard forecasting and the North American Public Avalanche Danger Scale.  They also review February and take a look at what is coming up for March on the Avalanche Hour Podcast. 

Sara Boilen holds a doctorate in clinical psychology from the University of Denver (2011). Professionally, she works with individuals who have had interactions with the justice system often in the spirit of helping to make sense of behavior and context. She has taken her professional interests and merged it with her recreational interests to contribute to the field of avalanche sciences in her free time. She is specifically interested in human-related problems and solutions. Dr. Boilen has presented at seven Snow and Avalanche Workshops and at ISSW in Norway. She has written articles for The Avalanche Review and was a co-author on the recently proposed conceptual framework for human factors in avalanche terrain. She lives in Northwest Montana and will carry dessert for you to the top of any mountain her skills will take her to.

Dom Baker is an avalanche technician with the BC Ministry of Transportation at Kootenay Pass, occasional avalanche course instructor and adventure buddy to his kids.  

Episode Summary:

- Discussing the differences between moderate, considerable and high avalanche danger ratings

- Review of the last 6-8 weeks of programming, highlighting interviews that captured the hosts imagination or got us thinking

- Recent rabbit holes worth exploring

- What’s on deck for the second half of the season

Resources Mentioned in the Conversation:

The Avalanche Hour Podcast 5.25: European avalanche rescues

Thanks to the sponsors of the show.

Legacy Sponsors:

Darren Johnson Avalanche Education Memorial Fund

AVSS

Drone Amplified

Partner Sponsors:

CIL Avalanche

Safeback

onX Backcountry

Music: Ketsa

Artwork: Mike Tea 

Production: Dom Baker, Bob Keating

Caleb Merrill is back to interview Dan Abrams for a reflective conversation on a tragic avalanche accident. Tune in for a conversation that stems from the soul…. soul skiing that is, and the endless search for those perfect powder turns that brings our small community of soul skiers & riders together. 

Dan and Caleb center the conversation’s focus on recounting the Tunnel Creek avalanche accident that Dan was involved with back in 2012. This accident was followed by significant media coverage and quickly drew attention across the country. The New York Times eventually produced a Pulitzer Prize-winning multimedia feature called Snow Fall: The Avalanche at Tunnel Creek about the accident, produced by reporter John Branch. 

Dan reflects on the lessons he learned from this event and how it has shaped his life today. He highlights that we should put greater focus on our motivations or expectations for a backcountry touring day and how we should change our plans to better align with those goals. We should also make sure we fully read and understand the public avalanche hazard bulletin before leaving the trailhead for a tour and make sure we do not let human biases veil our ability to identify red flags. 

Dan is a co-founder of Flylow, a ski apparel and gear brand founded in 2004 by two college friends who were self-proclaimed ‘ski bums’ that wanted to create backcountry ski pants that could hold up to the demands of the sport and terrain. 

Key Moments from the Conversation

- Dan recounts and reflects on his involvement with the Tunnel Creek Avalanche Accident near Stevens Pass, WA back in 2012

- The most important part before going into the backcountry should be fully reading the avalanche hazard bulletin and checking the excitement levels so red flags are not overlooked. 

- Pay attention to group size - large groups introduce heightened uncertainty. 

Resources Mentioned in the Conversation: 

Snow Fall: The Avalanche at Tunnel Creek, New York Times

Thanks to the sponsors of the show.

Legacy Sponsors:

Darren Johnson Avalanche Education Memorial Fund

AVSS

Drone Amplified

Partner Sponsors:

CIL Avalanche

Safeback

onX Backcountry

Music: Ketsa

Artwork: Mike Tea 

Production: Caleb Merrill, Bob Keating

Our next episode is out! Joe Stock sits down with Mik Dalpes for a conversation centered around leadership and culture in the avalanche industry. Mik grew up in Minnesota where she formed a passion for skiing. Her career includes spending time as a ski patroller, Outward Bound Instructor, Park Ranger, avalanche educator, and Avalanche Forecaster for the Chugach National Forest Avalanche Center. Mik had 2 children along the way and has become very interested in what types of leaders and cultures make people thrive in the avalanche industry.

Interview Highlights:

- Good leaders build a culture that is healthy, which includes treating people the same, handling mistakes well, and having a good balance of confidence and humility

- Women should be treated the same as any other person who has a medical condition when they are pregnant and breastfeeding

- A wide variety of skills are needed to be an avalanche professional and equal value should be placed on all of these skills including emotional and social skills.

Resources from the conversation:

- Women and Leadership Conference

- Parenting Resource 

- "Is it a Man's World?"

Thanks to the sponsors of the show.

Legacy Sponsors:

Darren Johnson Avalanche Education Memorial Fund

AVSS

Drone Amplified

Partner Sponsors:

CIL Avalanche

Safeback

onX Backcountry

Episode Sponsor:

Open Snow

Music: Ketsa

Artwork: Mike Tea 

Production: Caleb Merrill, Angie Lake

Be More Selective, Not More Careful: Hot Takes from the Avalanche Industry 

Interview Highlights:

- A terrain-first avalanche education reset: clear language, fewer false certainties, better decision framing.

- Real-world mentorship you can actually build: “friendtorship” structures, debrief prompts, and partner feedback that scales from rec to pro.

- Inclusion that’s operational, not performative: how All In Ice Fest trains guides and changes who feels welcome (and safer) in mountain spaces.

Jason Antin sits down with Kristin Arnold and Sheldon Kerr of Moxie for a candid, wide-ranging conversation that starts at All In Ice Fest at the Ouray Ice Park—and quickly moves into some very real hot takes on the snow and avalanche industry. Tune in to hear Kristin and Sheldon pull no punches as they share experience-backed perspectives on avalanche education, decision-making, and the systems we’ve built around them.

Along the way, they unpack how All In has grown into a major gathering designed for BIPOC, adaptive, LGBTQ2SIA+, and neurodivergent communities—and how centering training and leadership development within those communities reshapes what access, authority, and representation can look like in the mountains.

The conversation then drills into the core of their teaching philosophy: terrain management first, valuing consequence over likelihood, and acknowledging that humans are fundamentally bad at probabilistic thinking (and that this is not a moral failing). They explore “friendtorship” as a more honest alternative to the mythical mentorship pipeline, the outsized impact of short, consistent debriefs, and why being more selective consistently beats trying to be more careful in complex snowpacks.

They wrap with a series of lightning-round moments—including a spirited debate on beacon harness vs. pocket carry, why avalanche accident analysis often gets overcomplicated, and each guest’s Personal Disaster Flag: the human-factor tendencies they actively manage to stay sharp in the field.

About our guests:

Kristin Arnold (she/her) and Sheldon Kerr (she/her), from Ridgway, CO, are the owners and lead guides of Moxie Mountain Guides.  As of spring 2025, they are 2 of 19 total women AMGA/IFMGA guides in the U.S.*  

Kristin and Sheldon started Moxie in January of 2023. As Moxie, they’ve guided skiing on Chilean volcanos, taught rock climbing clinics all over the Western US, built risk management plans and forecasted avalanches for Colorado silver mines, trained US Special Forces teams in mountain skills, instructed professional avalanche courses all over the country, and worked with small businesses and national organizations to improve their diversity, equity, and inclusion programs.

Both Arnold and Kerr are also on the Instructor Team for the American Mountain Guide Association, staff members of the American Institute of Avalanche Research and Education, and graduates of Habit Queer’s Fitness Beyond the Binary certification program. They have also completed training through Paradox Sports in working with adaptive athletes.

Resources discussed in the episode: 

All In Ice FestMoxie Mountain Guide

Thanks to the sponsors of the show.

Legacy Sponsors:

Darren Johnson Avalanche Education Memorial Fund

AVSS

Drone Amplified

Partner Sponsors:

CIL Avalanche

Safeback

onX Backcountry

Episode Sponsor:

Arva

Music: Ketsa

Artwork: Mike Tea 

Production: Caleb Merrill, Bob Keating 

Interview Highlights: 

- Coming home each day is always the goal, and debriefing seems to be a helpful tool in adding expertise to our experience. 

- Debriefing can look many different ways. It can happen in real time during an outing, known as a rolling debrief, or it can happen at the end of  the day, and even at a later time. 

- Ian and Sara posit that our debriefing skills are in need of attention, and that different personal and environmental factors impact how well we perform this critical task.

- While professionals participating in a debrief often have a defined leader, recreational users benefit from peer leadership.

About our guests:

Sara Boilen holds a doctorate in clinical psychology from the University of Denver (2011). Professionally, she works with individuals who have had interactions with the justice system often in the spirit of helping to make sense of behavior and context. She has taken her professional interests and merged it with her recreational interests to contribute to the field of avalanche sciences in her free time. She is specifically interested in human-related problems and solutions. Dr. Boilen has presented at seven Snow and Avalanche Workshops and at ISSW in Norway. She has written articles for The Avalanche Review and was a co-author on the recently proposed conceptual framework for human factors in avalanche terrain. She lives in Northwest Montana and will carry dessert for you to the top of any mountain her skills will take her to.

Ian McCammon, often considered the godfather of human factors in avalanche education, has a unique background with a foot in scientific research and another in backcountry exploration. With formal training in physics, materials science, and engineering, Ian started in R&D before becoming deeply involved in avalanche education in the 1990s. Following the loss of his friend Steve Carruthers in an avalanche, he was driven to study how experienced individuals make fatal decisions despite knowing better. His work has since shaped modern avalanche education and risk management strategies.

Thanks to the sponsors of the show.

Legacy Sponsors:

Darren Johnson Avalanche Education Memorial Fund

AVSS

Drone Amplified

Partner Sponsors:

CIL Avalanche

Safeback

onX Backcountry

Episode Sponsor:

Snowbound Solutions

Music: Ketsa

Artwork: Mike Tea 
Production: Caleb Merrill, Bob Keating

Join us for our fourth installment of Slabs ‘n Sluff with Sara Boilen and guest co-host, Sean Zimmerman-Wall! Sara and Sean review January and take a look at what is coming up for February in the Avalanche Hour Podcast. We also hear an update from Dom. 

Sara Boilen holds a doctorate in clinical psychology from the University of Denver (2011). Professionally, she works with individuals who have had interactions with the justice system often in the spirit of helping to make sense of behavior and context. She has taken her professional interests and merged it with her recreational interests to contribute to the field of avalanche sciences in her free time. She is specifically interested in human-related problems and solutions. Dr. Boilen has presented at seven Snow and Avalanche Workshops and at ISSW in Norway. She has written articles for The Avalanche Review and was a co-author on the recently proposed conceptual framework for human factors in avalanche terrain. She lives in Northwest Montana and will carry dessert for you to the top of any mountain her skills will take her to.

Sean Zimmerman-Wall works to build connections across the avalanche community through ski patrolling, teaching and occasional guiding gigs.  Determined to leave the industry better than he found it, he believes he can grow alongside others and develop strong relationships that last.

Episode Summary:

- Discussing the impact of Traumatic Brain Injuries on our community members

- Review of the last 6-8 weeks of programming, highlighting interviews that captured the hosts imagination or got us thinking

- Digging through the mailbag for some gems

- Recent rabbit holes worth exploring

- What’s on deck for the second half of the season

- onX Backcountry Highlight: Caleb x Andy Sovick

Resources Mentioned in the Conversation:

Fatal Occupational Injuries of Avalanche Workers in North America -Ethan Greene, et. al

Assessing and Communicating Likelihood and Probability of Snow Avalanches Scott Thumlert, et. al.

Breaking the Habit of Being Yourself: How to Lose Your Mind and Create a New One- Dr. Joe Dispenza

Quit: The Power of Knowing When to Walk Away- Annie Duke

TBI: Basics

Thanks to the sponsors of the show.

Legacy Sponsors:

Darren Johnson Avalanche Education Memorial Fund

AVSS

Drone Amplified

Partner Sponsors:

CIL Avalanche

Safeback

onX Backcountry

Music: Ketsa

Artwork: Mike Tea 

Production: Caleb Merrill, Bob Keating

Pascal Haegeli’s career path is anything but conventional. After completing his Master’s degree in Switzerland, he moved to Canada in the mid-1990s – where he found the opportunity of a lifetime. There he built an academic career and became a very influential researcher in avalanche risk management, shaping safety practices across North America and beyond.

Today, Pascal is an Associate Professor and Director of the School of Resource and Environmental Management at Simon Fraser University in Vancouver and leads the SFU Avalanche Research Group (SARP). His team’s work spans everything from avalanche forecasting, snowpack and hazard modelling to operational decision-making practices and risk communication.

This spring, Pascal begins an exciting new chapter: returning to Switzerland as Head of Avalanche Research and Prevention at the SLF in Davos. He brings decades of international experience back to where his journey began - strengthening collaboration across the Atlantic.

Interview Highlights:

- How chance, timing, and hard work shaped Pascal’s avalanche career in Canada

- The mission and intention behind the SFU Avalanche Research Group

- Why avalanche research moves slower than the industry – and why that matters

- Why Pascal is returning to Switzerland and what that means for avalanche research in Canada

Resources Cited in Conversation: 

SFU SARP website

PostDoc Position

Thanks to the sponsors of the show.

Legacy Sponsors:

Darren Johnson Avalanche Education Memorial Fund

AVSS

Drone Amplified

Partner Sponsors:

CIL Avalanche

Safeback

onX Backcountry

Episode Sponsor:

Peak Visor

Music: Ketsa

Artwork: Mike Tea 

Production: Caleb Merrill, Bob Keating 

Joe Stock and Luc Mehl have been on many adventures together. Join them for a great conversation about risk management in wild places. In Joe's words: Luc Mehl is one of Alaska’s foremost adventurers, filling the gap between Roman Dial and Dick Griffith. He’s been at the forefront of ski traversing, packrafting, wild ice skating and now wilderness risk management. 

Luc grew up in rural Alaska and has traveled over 10,000 miles of the state by foot, ski, pedal, paddle, and ice skate. Luc's work has earned several national awards, two for The Packraft Handbook, and others for public service in boating safety and leadership in wilderness risk management. Luc's business, Triple Point Training, provides wilderness risk management and rescue training. 

Luc’s Triple Point Training: https://triplepointtraining.com 

Luc’s Podcast and blog: https://thingstolucat.com/ 

Interview highlights

• Luc grew up in rural Alaska and it shaped his life ahead. 

• Luc shares the story of a few of his big mountain ski trips including road to road ski traverses of Denal and Mount Logan. 

• Over the past 20 year Luc’s relationship with risk has evolved from pushing the envelope of what’s possible to finding peace with his place in the mountains. Part of this evolution included life-changing experiences with avalanches that have left him no longer comfortable going into avalanche terrain. He’s now at the cutting edge of wild ice skating and ice rescue. 

• Our conversation concludes with his new projects and work in wilderness risk management. 

Thanks to the sponsors of the show.

Legacy Sponsors:

⁠Darren Johnson Avalanche Education Memorial Fund⁠

⁠AVSS⁠

⁠Drone Amplified⁠

Partner Sponsors:

⁠CIL Avalanche⁠

⁠Safeback⁠

⁠onX Backcountry⁠ Use code: avalanchehour for 30% off a year of onX Backcountry Elite or Premium Membership.

Episode Sponsor:

Propagation Labs

Music: ⁠Ketsa⁠

Artwork: ⁠Mike Tea ⁠

Production: Caleb Merrill, ⁠Bob Keating

“Science is What We Do to Keep from Lying to Ourselves” ~ Richard Feynman. 

In this conversation, Bruce Jamieson is back to interview Dr. Karl Birkeland and Joe Stock for a deep dive into snow science. Jamieson brings us with him on a snow science journey alongside two of the industry’s top authors and experts on snow avalanches. Their conversations comment on the importance of the science side of the industry as “understanding how things work allows us to anticipate conditions that are outside of our experience.” 

Interview Highlights:

- Stopping to dig a snow pit or review & interpret observations helps groups engage with the snowpack, fosters curiosity, and encourages collaborative decision-making

- Long-term practitioners often become humble and curious due to encountering surprises and unknowns in avalanche work

- The amount of science needed depends on the individual and their goals; more knowledge can help practitioners and recreationists make better decisions, especially in unfamiliar conditions   

- People benefit from a tiered training framework: core skills in main courses coupled with more science topics through CPD and ISSWs. 

Joe Stock is an IFMGA mountain guide who has distilled decades of skiing, climbing, guiding and teaching avalanche courses into a step-by-step system outlined in The Avalanche Factor - a handbook for recreational skiers and climbers who want to get into backcountry avalanche terrain using their own power.

Karl Birkeland’s The Starting Zone is an e-book specifically targeting avalanche professionals and advanced recreationists. It’s an essential resource for avalanche professionals, blending cutting-edge science with practical avalanche application.

Thanks to the sponsors of the show.

Legacy Sponsors:

Darren Johnson Avalanche Education Memorial Fund

AVSS

Drone Amplified

Partner Sponsors:

CIL Avalanche

Safeback

onX Backcountry

Episode Sponsor:

Open Snow

Music: Ketsa

Artwork: Mike Tea 

Production: Caleb Merrill, Bob Keating