The Avalanche Hour Podcast

Sean Zimmerman-Wall steps in front of the mic to bring you another great interview with Rebecca “Becs” Hodgetts. Becs began ski patrolling in the mid-1990s on Mt Ruapehu, a volcano in the central plateau of New Zealand’s North Island. She went on to work at other resorts in New Zealand, Canada, and the US. She worked 12 years at Arapahoe Basin in Colorado, first as an avalanche technician and later as Assistant Ski Patrol Director. She joined the Colorado Avalanche Information Center in 2013 and worked first as a Backcountry, then as a Highway Forecaster, and finally as a Regional Lead Forecaster for southern Colorado. In July 2024, she took a new role with the US Forest Service's National Avalanche Center (NAC). In this role, she will support the NAC's mission to improve backcountry and ski area safety by reducing avalanche risk on and around National Forests. This mission includes training and transferring information and technology to the field, managing the Artillery for Avalanche Mitigation Program, and coordinating US avalanche centers through the National Avalanche Forecast Platform.

Show Notes:

March 2019 Historic Avalanche Cycle Video produced by CAIC https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BlkH-Mnzddc

Interview with CAIC Director Ethan Greene produced by The Powder Cloud

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YolFA80sP5Y

National Avalanche Center and Avalanche.org

https://avalanche.org/national-avalanche-center/

The Starting Zone by Karl Birkeland

https://support.friendsofcaic.org/products/the-starting-zone-at-the-interface-between-avalanche-science-and-practice?srsltid=AfmBOopaIynaGIjcEwbEhudjbTuCHTWlsHXgIFQf26ne3tfbgcABdFj-

Thanks to the sponsors of this episode:

Wyssen Avalanche Control

Gordini USA

OpenSnow

IPA Collective

Music by Age Diamante

Art by Mike Tea

Ian McCammon, often considered the godfather of human factors in avalanche education, has a unique background with a foot in scientific research and another in backcountry exploration. With formal training in physics, materials science, and engineering, Ian started in R&D before becoming deeply involved in avalanche education in the 1990s. Following the loss of his friend Steve Carruthers in an avalanche, he was driven to study how experienced individuals make fatal decisions despite knowing better. His work has since shaped modern avalanche education and risk management strategies.

Ian developed the FACETS acronym:

• Familiarity: We feel safer in places we've been before, even when conditions change.

• Acceptance: The desire to fit in can push individuals to take unnecessary risks.

• Commitment/Consistency: The drive to follow through on a plan despite new information.

• Expert Halo: Over-reliance on an individual perceived as an expert.

• Tracks/Scarcity: The fear of missing out on first tracks can cloud judgment.

• Social Proof: Seeing others on a slope can create a false sense of security.

His research suggests that merely teaching these factors isn’t enough to change behavior—awareness must be coupled with tools for self-evaluation.

PDFs help individuals identify their personal biases and recurring decision-making flaws. By reflecting on past experiences and recognizing patterns in our own choices, we can slow down and make more objective decisions in the field.

Ian also created ALPTRUTh, an easy-to-remember checklist that has been proven effective in evaluating avalanche risk. More than 90% of avalanche accidents occur when three or more of these factors are present:

• A: Avalanches in the past 48 hours.

• L: Recent loading from snow, wind, or rain.

• P: Obvious avalanche path present.

• T: Terrain trap below.

• R: Avalanche danger rating of "considerable" or higher.

• U: Signs of unstable snow (cracking, collapsing, whoomping).

• TH: Thawing or rapid warming conditions.

McCammon introduced the Stability Wheel, a simplified model explaining the three conditions necessary for an avalanche:

1. Strength: The ability of the snowpack to resist force.

2. Structure: Weak layers and slab formations.

3. Energy Release: The capacity for a fracture to propagate.

Ian explains how propagation propensity, friction, and fracture toughness are now being studied in more depth to improve predictive tools like the Extended Column Test (ECT) and Propagation Saw Test (PST).

One of Ian’s strongest messages in the episode is the importance of margins—the space we create between ourselves and dangerous terrain to account for uncertainty. He emphasizes that uncertainty is often underestimated and that decision-makers must continually assess whether they are acting on knowledge or assumptions.

Ian discusses a study that found significant human and device error in slope angle measurements, with a margin of error between 3-6 degrees. This has implications for decision-making, especially when relying on digital elevation models and inclinometer apps.

Ian highlights the need for new research in decision-making tools, material-based snowpack models, and practical field applications of computational advancements. He also discusses the role of technology in avalanche education, including digital versions of his Snow & Avalanche Fieldbook and new methods for risk communication.

“Every time you get on a slope, you have to look at it as if you're seeing it for the first time.” – Ian McCammon

• FACETS and Human Factors in Avalanche Accidents

• ALPTRUTh: Evaluating Risk Factors in Avalanche Accidents

• Stability Wheel and Snowpack Fracture Mechanics

• Decision-Making in Avalanche Terrain: Cognitive Biases

• Snow & Avalanche Fieldbook (White Book)

• Host: Jake Hutchinson

• Guest: Ian McCammon

• Producer: Cameron Griffin

• Wyssen:www.wyssen.com

• OpenSnow:www.opensnow.com

• Gordini:www.gordini.com

• Arva:https://us.arva-equipment.com/

Music by Ketsa• Campfire

Jen Reddy is a total low-key badass who sat down with Caleb for a great conversation about her work with Teton County Search and Rescue and the American Avalanche Association. Jen is tasked with overseeing the guidance of the professional training program amongst participating providers within the US. Jen and Caleb talk about her early years of backcountry skiing, a close call, and some influences that urged her to get involved as a volunteer with Teton County Search and Rescue. They discuss some of her work at A3 and what has been going on behind the scenes to elevate the level of professional training in the US. Tune in to hear more.

Music: Ketsa

Art: Mike Tea

Listener Survey

Resources:

A3 Pro Training Program

ICAR 2024 Congress

Teton County Search and Rescue

Episode Overview

In this second part of their conversation, Chris Stethem and Grant Statham dig deeper into the evolving world of avalanche safety, focusing on how decision-making frameworks and advanced communication practices have reshaped the industry. They begin by exploring the development of InfoEx, reflecting on how the system has grown over time and identifying areas for potential improvement. This discussion naturally segues into Chris’s early days as an avalanche consultant, laying the groundwork for the professionalization of avalanche research and the formation of new training programs.

As the episode progresses, Chris and Grant share insights on how the CAA Level 3 Course came into being, noting the considerable skill set and qualifications now required to enroll in higher-level avalanche education. They highlight the rising standards for certification in various avalanche-related jobs, emphasizing how worker safety has driven regulatory changes and communication strategies designed to put people in safer positions on the mountain.

Bringing their vast experience to bear, Chris and Grant examine spatial variability in different types of terrain, describing how certain slopes may foster specific avalanche problems. They delve into the tension between scientific assessments, practical experience, and the uncertainties that can influence life-and-death decisions in avalanche terrain. Their stories illustrate how collaboration, mentorship, and continually evolving best practices have shaped modern avalanche safety and will continue to do so.

Key Topics Covered

• InfoEx Evolution – The origins, growth, and potential improvements of this critical data-sharing tool

• Early Avalanche Consultancy – How initial consulting efforts opened doors for professional research

• Birth of the CAA Level 3 Course – The skill set, accomplishments, and certification pathways crucial for advanced avalanche work

• Raising the Bar for Worker Safety – How advocacy, regulation, and improved communication led to better safety policies

• Spatial Variability & Avalanche Types – Linking different slopes to specific avalanche risks and managing uncertainty in dynamic conditions

Crew

• Host: Dom Baker

• Guests: Chris Stethem and Grant Statham

• Producer: Cameron Griffin

Sponsors

• Wyssen: www.wyssen.com

• OpenSnow: www.opensnow.com

• Gordini: www.gordini.com

• Raide Reaserch: www.raideresearch.com

Music by Gravy

• Lost My Voice

Episode Overview

In this first part of a two-episode series, The Avalanche Hour Podcast features an in-depth conversation with avalanche industry legends Chris Stethem and Grant Statham. These two have dedicated their lives to advancing avalanche safety, education, and research, and their collective impact has shaped how we think about risk management in snow-covered terrain.

The episode begins with the Granduc Mine Avalanche incident in Canada, a pivotal event that underscored the critical need for better risk assessment and communication systems. From there, Chris and Grant explore the origins of avalanche safety practices during the early “cowboy” days, where trial and error led to life-saving lessons.

Listeners will also hear about:

• Defining avalanche scales and aspects to improve communication and ensure messages reach diverse audiences effectively.

• The snowpack evolution of the 1976-77 winter, where facets became prominent, and the impacts of climate change began to show.

• A terrifying near-miss at a FIS ski race, where an avalanche ran into coaches, illustrating the gaps in early avalanche response planning.

• The development and introduction of avalanche beacons, from professional use to their eventual adoption by recreational users.

• Spatial planning for avalanche paths, with lessons drawn from Utah’s structural defenses and how they informed better land-use decisions.

Chris and Grant also reflect on how communication methods have evolved over time, emphasizing the importance of tailoring messages to the audience—whether professionals or recreational backcountry travelers—to ensure safety in avalanche terrain.

This episode sets the stage for an enlightening second part, where they’ll dive deeper into modern advancements, risk management techniques, and more.

Resources & Links Mentioned

• Wyssen Avalanche Control

• OpenSnow

• Gordini

• Raide Research

Crew

• Host: Dom Baker

• Guests: Chris Stethem & Grant Statham

• Producer: Cameron Griffin

Sponsors

• Wyssen Avalanche Control

• OpenSnow

• Gordini

• Raide Research

Music by Gravy

• Song: Lost My Voice

Episode Overview

In this engaging episode, host Jason Antin dives into a captivating conversation with Liz King, a renowned leader in avalanche education and mountain safety. Liz shares her unique journey from her unexpected beginnings in Houston, Texas, to becoming a key figure in the avalanche education world. As the Avalanche Program Director for both the American Avalanche Institute (AAI) and the Colorado Mountain School (CMS), Liz oversees comprehensive avalanche programming, from recreational courses to professional certifications.

Liz’s story begins with a love for the mountains that led her to the University of Montana, where she first discovered her passion for the outdoors. Her career started with horse packing at NOLS, transitioned to ski patrolling, and grew into a prominent role as an avalanche educator and guide. Liz reflects on her path, discussing the evolving landscape of avalanche education, the challenges of managing large-scale programs, and the importance of mentorship in outdoor leadership.

This episode offers deep insights into Liz’s professional evolution, her perspective on student engagement, and the advancements in avalanche safety technology. Jason and Liz discuss the shifting demographics of avalanche education students, the balance between recreational and professional training, and Liz’s personal goals as she navigates her leadership roles.

The conversation also highlights Liz’s reflections on mentorship, her passion for empowering the backcountry community, and her dedication to maintaining personal connections in the mountains. With humor and authenticity, Liz shares her “personal disaster flags” (PDFs), her thoughts on the role of mentorship in her career, and her excitement for skiing in new mountain ranges every year.

Whether you’re a seasoned avalanche educator or new to the backcountry world, this episode is packed with valuable insights, inspiration, and a glimpse into the mind of a true mountain professional.

Resources & Links Mentioned

• American Avalanche Institute (AAI): www.avalancheinstitute.com

• Colorado Mountain School (CMS): www.coloradomountainschool.com

• American Avalanche Association (A3): www.avalanche.org

• Bridger-Teton Avalanche Center: www.jhavalanche.org

Crew

• Host: Jason Antin

• Guest: Liz King

• Producer: Caleb Merrill and Cameron Griffin

Sponsors

• Wyssen: www.wyssen.com

• OpenSnow: www.opensnow.com

• Gordini: www.gordini.com

• Beacon Guidebooks: www.beaconguidebooks.com

 Music by Age Diamante:

• Chill Pah

In this compelling episode, Brooke sits down with Josh Hirshberg, a veteran avalanche forecaster and educator with nearly two decades of experience in the snow safety world. Currently forecasting for the Northwest Avalanche Center (NWAC), Josh dives into his journey through the avalanche industry, from early internships in Aspen to forecasting in Washington’s Cascades.

Josh shares captivating insights about the notable February 2021 avalanche cycle in Washington, the challenges of persistent weak layers, and the importance of mentorship and collaboration. He also reflects on personal growth, balancing creative pursuits like photography and art, and how grief has shaped his perspective on the mountains and life.

Resources & Links Mentioned

• Northwest Avalanche Center (NWAC): www.nwac.us

Crew

• Host: Brooke Maushund

• Guest: Josh Hirshberg

• Producer: Cameron Griffin (@backcountrycam)

Sponsors

• Wyssen: www.wyssen.com

• Arva: www.arva-equipment.com

• OpenSnow: www.opensnow.com

• Gordini: www.gordini.com

• Safeback: www.safeback.com

• Beacon Guidebooks: www.beaconguidebooks.com

🎶 Music by Ketsa:

• Yellowish

• Snowing in Spring

• Anons

In this episode of the Avalanche Hour Podcast, host Dr. Sara

⁠⁠⁠Fill out our Listener Survey for the chance to win a gift card from Gordini and a pack from Arva!

Support for this episode was provided by:

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Wyssen Avalanche Control⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Gordini⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠OpenSnow⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠: use code avalanche50 for 50% off of your all-access subscription

IPA Collective

This episode features an interview with Karin Pocock. Karin Pocock shares her journey in the avalanche industry, discussing her experiences in both Canada and the U.S. She reflects on a pivotal avalanche incident that shaped her career and emphasizes the importance of education and training in avalanche safety. Karin also highlights the unique culture at the Silverton Avalanche School and addresses the challenges of being a female leader in a male-dominated field, advocating for inclusivity and support for future generations. In this conversation, Karin Pocock discusses the importance of hiring based on skill rather than gender, the challenges of navigating confidence and competence in high-risk avalanche work, and the significance of managing stress in demanding environments. She shares her experiences discovering the value of pushing personal limits through bike pack racing, and the necessity of fostering healthy conflict within teams. Additionally, she emphasizes the importance of education in avalanche science and the need for a supportive and empowering workplace culture.

⁠⁠Fill out our Listener Survey for the chance to win a gift card from Gordini and a pack from Arva!⁠

Music: ⁠Ketsa⁠

Art: ⁠Mike Tea⁠

Support for this episode was provided by:

⁠⁠⁠⁠Wyssen Avalanche Control⁠⁠⁠⁠

⁠⁠⁠⁠Gordini⁠⁠⁠⁠

⁠⁠⁠⁠OpenSnow⁠⁠⁠⁠: use code avalanche50 for 50% off of your all-access subscription

Arva Equipment: use code AVALANCHEHOUR25 for a discount on your next purchase or canister refill

In this episode of the Avalanche Hour podcast, Caleb speaks with meteorologist Joel Gratz- founder of Open Snow, about the importance of weather forecasting for skiing and how it pertains to avalanche conditions. They unpack how much to weigh El Nino and La Nina on winter weather predictions, and Joel walks us through what goes into a forecast from OpenSnow. Joel shares insights into the features of Open Snow and discusses the intricacies of weather forecasting, particularly in relation to snow prediction. He explains the importance of the five-day window for making accurate forecasts and delves into the development and functionality of various weather models. Gratz highlights the significance of resolution in forecasting accuracy and introduces the role of AI in enhancing predictions. He also emphasizes the value of using multiple models for better accuracy and provides resources for those interested in learning more about weather and forecasting.

Resources:

Secrets of the Greatest Snow on Earth: Weather, Climate Change, and Finding Deep Powder in Utah's Wasatch Mountains and around the World By Jim Steenburgh

⁠Fill out our Listener Survey for the chance to win a gift card from Gordini and a pack from Arva!

Music: Ketsa

Art: Mike Tea

Support for this episode was provided by:

⁠⁠⁠Wyssen Avalanche Control⁠⁠⁠

⁠⁠⁠Gordini⁠⁠⁠

⁠⁠⁠OpenSnow⁠⁠⁠: use code avalanche50 for 50% off of your all-access subscription