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Twenty-five years ago, we woke up to a terrible tragedy.

We remember the images. The first plane. The second plane. The towers collapsing. The Pentagon burning. The field in Pennsylvania. We remember the smoke, the sirens, the stunned faces—and the terrible realization that the most powerful nation on earth was suddenly, frighteningly vulnerable.

But we also remember something else.

For a brief moment, we seemed to remember how to be Americans together.

We stood in line to give blood. We gathered in churches and synagogues and mosques. We put flags on our cars. We embraced strangers. We grieved together.

And then something changed.

Twenty-five years later, the question for us isn't simply what happened on September 11, 2001. We know what happened.

The harder question is: What happened to us afterward?

How did the trauma of that morning reshape our understanding of God? How did it change American Christianity? How did fear of terrorism become fear of Islam—and eventually, perhaps, fear of one another?

We went to war. We expanded government surveillance. We embraced a doctrine of preemptive military action. We spent trillions of dollars. And somewhere along the way, the extraordinary unity we experienced after 9/11 began to fracture.

So today on this special edition of the Two Kens, Ken Fong and I go back—not simply to the morning America was attacked, but to the 25 years that followed.

We two former pastors are asking questions that are both political and deeply personal: Where was God? What did we become? And what, if anything, can we learn from 9/11 before fear teaches us the same lessons all over again?

SHOW NOTES

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In Part One of my conversation with Scott Chesebro, we talked about a life shaped by curiosity - by people, places, questions, and a willingness to look beyond the boundaries of his own religious and cultural experience. Scott has never understood faith as simply a system of beliefs about heaven and hell. For him, it has been a way of being in community and of remaining open to the lives and experiences of others.

In Part Two, our conversation becomes more intimate. Scott is living with an incurable lung disease and has made the deeply personal decision to enter hospice. Yet this is not simply a conversation about illness or dying. It is about how a person looks back on a life well lived - and what he hopes to leave behind.

We talk about Norene, his partner in marriage and tireless companion; about raising their two sons on Chicago’s South Side and now watching their grandchildren grow up there; about race, public schools, faith communities, and the former students who continue to visit him. We talk about travel, including a journey through West Africa and along the Slave Road, and the curiosity that has guided Scott since childhood.

And eventually, we arrive at the question all of us must face: What do you want the people you love to remember?

Scott’s answer is both simple and profound: “I’m not afraid to die. I just don’t want to leave.”

SHOW NOTES

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There are some conversations we know we will remember for the rest of our lives. This is one of them.

My longtime friend Scott Chesebro and I share a history that stretches back decades - our education, our years in Chicago, our careers, our families, and our love for a city that has meant so much to both of us. But this conversation took place at a very different moment in Scott’s life.

Scott is now receiving hospice care at home, living with idiopathic pulmonary fibrosis, a progressive disease that has severely damaged his lungs. After being denied a lung transplant, Scott made the deeply personal decision to enter hospice. When I called him, the people helping with his cremation had just visited - and had suggested that he record something to be played at his memorial service. “Did that feel weird?” I asked.

What followed was anything but morbid. Scott was alert, thoughtful, philosophical - and remarkably open.

We talked about his journey from Bible School to the University of Michigan to Notre Dame, his career as a professor and four decades as director of the Chicago Center, his beloved wife Noreen, his children and grandchildren, and the city he has loved since 1966.

Most of all, we talked about life, death, memory, and what he hopes his grandchildren will know about their Grandpa Scott.

This is a conversation about dying—but even more, it is a conversation about living.

SHOW NOTES

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What happens when you take a position at a university because you believe it will honor your faith—only to discover that the institution you trusted is not what you imagined? 

That’s the story of my guest, Julia E. Inglis, Ph.D., MPH, RD. Julia is a nutrition scientist, researcher, clinician, writer, and educator who spent nearly four years as an associate professor at Liberty University, teaching nutrition, chronic disease, research methods, and sports nutrition.

She came to Liberty University with high hopes. Here was a university that openly affirmed her Christian faith. She expected an institution where faith and rigorous scholarship could coexist - and perhaps even strengthen one another.

Instead, Julia encountered an academic culture that, in her experience, too often placed ideology ahead of scholarship. She describes low academic standards, grade inflation, unqualified faculty, closed doors when she raised questions, and a campus culture increasingly shaped by ultra-conservative politics and Christian nationalism. She also became deeply troubled by how allegations of sexual abuse were handled.

Eventually, Julia resigned.

But she didn’t simply walk away. She decided that her experience needed to be told - not as an attack on Christianity, but as a warning about what can happen when a university becomes more committed to protecting its institution, its politics, and its power than to pursuing truth.

Today, Julia tells that story—and what she learned from it.

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Today, we begin by looking ahead to Betsey Newenhuyse's upcoming three-week adventure in Costa Rica, where she'll explore the rainforest and indulge her family’s passion for birding. I also share highlights from four memorable days in Park City, Utah, with my three brothers - a rare gathering of just the four of us. Between hot air ballooning, river rafting, and long conversations filled with memories, laughter, and hopes for the future, it became a time I'll treasure for years.

Then we shift to the unsettling congressional hearing targeting Dr. Anthony Fauci. It brought back memories of those frightening early days of the pandemic and how quickly a public health crisis became a political battleground. We discuss Fauci's remarkable career under Dr. Francis Collins, the honors he received from both George W. Bush and Donald Trump. Figures like Rand Paul and Adam Kinzinger have become part of a much larger story about truth, politics, and public trust.

From there, we talk about the rapidly approaching midterm elections. We review Pete Buttigieg's growing national presence - and the disturbing rise of political intimidation. 

Finally, we end with a discussion of that remarkable Concert for Peace featuring Pope Leo, Andrea Bocelli, inspiring young voices from war-torn countries around the world, and a moving rendition of "Amazing Grace" that left both of us reflecting on what reconciliation might actually look like.

Ken’s Substack: The Concert of Peace - Amazing Grace, How Sweet the Sound

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Welcome back to Two Kens with my good friend, Ken Fong.

Every so often we record a conversation that challenges us as much as it challenges our listeners. This is one of those episodes.

We begin with a hilarious - but surprisingly insightful - clip from Leslie Jones that opens the door to an honest conversation about race, the myth of colorblindness, code-switching, white fragility, and the stories America tells itself.

Then we turn to Christopher Nolan's The Odyssey, where Odysseus is portrayed not as an untouchable hero but as a man scarred by war. It raises powerful questions about trauma, empathy, and whether compassion still has a place in a culture that rewards certainty.

Finally, we welcome musician Joseph Tseng, whose remarkable album Shanghai: An American Story explores immigration, identity, family, and belonging.

Ken and I aren't trying to win arguments. We're trying to ask better questions, believing that curiosity, empathy, and honest conversation still have the power to change us.

Robin D’Angelo - White Fragility: Why It's So Hard for White People to Talk About Racism

Leslie Jones on Colorblind White Guys

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Every once in a while I read a book that stays with me long after I've turned the final page. That's exactly what happened when I discovered Theo of Golden by Allen Levi. In fact, I was so moved that I immediately read it a second time - something I almost never do. The novel inspired two essays for my Substack, and in this episode I bring those reflections together. More than a book review, this is an invitation to consider the quiet power of kindness, empathy, hospitality, and grace - and why those virtues may be exactly what our divided world needs today.

Substack #1 - Theo of Golden: A Paradigm Shift in an Era of Culture War

Substack #2 - The Gospel According to Theo: Allen Levi is my kind of Christian

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This week, I’m reaching back into the archive to reprise the most popular episode in the history of my podcast.

The Rev. Ben Cremer has built a significant and growing social media presence—one that caught my attention when I stumbled across a lengthy essay he titled “Myths We Believe.” In it, Ben details the things he was taught to embrace but has since had to unlearn. As I read it, I was struck by how closely his journey tracked my own.

Ben was homeschooled from kindergarten through twelfth grade in what he describes as “a deeply conservative environment in rural Idaho—as far right politically and theologically as you can imagine.” He would eventually serve as a pastor in a small, traditional, conservative church that mirrored Idaho’s deep-red culture, and later as campus pastor at Cathedral of the Rockies, a progressive, affirming United Methodist congregation in Boise. He no longer serves as pastor at either church.

When we recorded this conversation, Ben had recently appeared on Boise’s local ABC affiliate, Channel 7, in a feature exploring politics and religion. The journalist interviewed two pastors at opposite ends of the spectrum: Blaine Conzatti, a conservative pastor affiliated with the Communion of Reformed Evangelical Churches and president of the Idaho Family Policy Center, and Ben.

In our conversation, Ben and I unpack his remarkable journey, beginning with those early homeschool years and a curriculum rooted in the “Christian Identity” movement—a worldview that denied the Holocaust, argued that slavery was good because it introduced Africans to Christianity, and taught that the separation of races was part of God’s design.

From there, Ben moved through college and graduate school, where he learned to read widely, ask questions, and pursue his curiosity. His passion for ministry took him through seminary and into pastoral ministry. But lonely, underpaid, and increasingly burdened by questions, Ben slipped into a dark spiritual depression.

In this vulnerable and deeply open conversation, Ben tells his story of recovery, redemption, and transformation—and of finding a faith that is open, fresh, and alive.

It remains the most listened-to episode in my podcast history. If you missed it the first time—or if you’re ready to hear it again—I think you’ll understand why.

SHOW NOTES

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NEW EPISODE: This is where our conversation takes an even deeper turn.

Caleb shares the story of his personal confrontation with Christian nationalism—how an invitation to participate with Turning Point USA forced him to take a much closer look at the movement and the version of Christianity it was promoting. That investigation eventually led him to write his remarkable book, Disarming Leviathan: Loving Your Christian Nationalist Neighbor.

We also explore the rich biblical imagery behind the title. In Scripture, Leviathan represents the mysterious forces of chaos that only God can ultimately tame. Caleb uses that ancient symbol as a powerful metaphor for Christian nationalism itself—a force fueled by fear, political idolatry, and cultural anxiety over demographic change, political marginalization, and the perceived loss of traditional values.

But this isn't simply a critique. It's an invitation to faithful engagement. Caleb challenges us to respond not with condemnation but with empathy, courageous conversations, genuine listening, and radical hospitality.

For anyone struggling to relate to friends or family who have been drawn into the MAGA movement or Christian nationalism, Caleb offers thoughtful, practical wisdom that I believe you'll find both hopeful and deeply challenging. 

Listen to Part 1 - From Neo-Nazi to Lead  Pastor: Caleb Campbell's Extraordinary Journey

SHOW NOTES - including links to Caleb’s book and the When the Wolves Came Podcast

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In this new episode of the Two Kens, Ken Fong and I explore a growing movement that claims white Americans have become an "unprotected class" in modern America. Sparked by the ideas of author and Claremont Institute fellow Jeremy Carl, whose book The Unprotected Class argues that anti-white discrimination is widespread, we examine the resurgence of white identity politics at a moment when DEI initiatives and anti-racism efforts are facing significant backlash.

We discuss the concept of racism as a perceived zero-sum game—the belief that gains for minorities necessarily mean losses for the dominant culture—and how that narrative is shaping today's political landscape. Along the way, we ask a surprisingly complicated question: What does it mean to be "white" in America? We contrast the emerging politics of white grievance with Martin Luther King Jr.'s vision of a color-blind society and consider whether America's future lies in competing racial identities or in a renewed commitment to common dignity, solidarity, and the common good.

SHOW NOTES

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