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Ken welcomes Judy Peterson, also known as "The Walking Pastor." In 2019, Judy's eleven-year tenure as Campus Pastor at a highly respected Christian university (North Park U. in Chicago) came to an unwelcome end. She was terminated because she officiated a same-sex wedding. Earlier in her working career, while she tended bar in a popular tavern, she had a powerful spiritual encounter. That faith came into focus as she set out on a spiritual journey. She walked across the United States (from the Pacific to the Atlantic) in a quest to know what it means to "walk with God." A graduate of North Park University, she earned both a B.A. and an M. Div. The crisis of her firing tested her faith. While she understands and appreciates the process of deconstruction, she prefers to call it composting. Today, she is founder and President of Haecceitas Inc. designed "to create spaces where those who feel disconnected from their faith might (re)discover a God who delights in each and everyone making a space for themselves in close proximity to the Divine." Judy shares her personal story of awakenings, inviting us all to join in the dance. SHOW NOTES

Judy Peterson on Twitter | The RNS Article from 2019

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Next week, we celebrate Thanksgiving. Ken and Betsey share what they are grateful for, including over one hundred Beach Talks. They return to their conversation around the Israeli/Palestinian War - noting the speech by Senator Jon Ossoff (D-GA) on the floor of the Senate. The Jewish politician captures the tension between the rights of Israel to engage terrorism and the plight of non-combatant Palestinians in Gaza who suffer horribly. Netanyahu is losing support from all sides. Robert P. Jones wrote about the dangers of hate speech, becoming worse as the former President makes his run for the Republican nomination for 2024. The two friends end with a discussion of the meaning of prayer in both these troubled times and the arrival of Thanksgiving Day.    

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Today Ken reads an essay he posted on his new Substack Account.

"OK. So I’m admitting it right from the top. I loved this movie. It’s got the same title as this post, but it’s not Ken - it’s Margaret. Based on the beloved 1970s novel by Judy Blume, well, the film got me. I’ve watched it twice. Maybe I’ll watch it again. Maybe you’ve read the book. 
I know, I know. I’m a sappy old white guy..."

Ken's Substack Page

Are You There God, It's Me, Ken

Watch the Movie | Read the Book

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Ethicist, author and professor, Dr. David Gushee returns to the podcast to talk about his new book: Defending Democracy from its Christian Enemies.  They begin talking about what many have called "the Nones," but Gushee calls Conscientious Objectors like Tim Whitaker and Pete Briscoe. (Ken includes himself.) Many of those "Nones" - those who claim to have no religious affiliation - actually find themselves in moral conflict with a religion that has violated its own moral standards. For Gushee (who is a committed Christian) democracy must be defended. Too many Christians are actively and aggressively attacking our democratic institutions all in the name of their God and their Bible. This is not new, and not limited to the United States. Dr. Gushee traces the challenges to democracy in France, Germany, Russia, Poland, Hungary and Brazil. He recognizes Christian Nationalism as a threat but prefers his own label: Authoritarian Reactionary Christianity. Adolph Hitler, Vladimir Putin, Viktor Orbán, and Jair Bolsonaro all invite comparisons to Trumpism in the United States. Ken and David talk about characters and players like Pastor Greg Locke, firebrand Tucker Carlson, theologian James Cone and Gushee's mentor, Dr. Glen Stassen. The good professor draws from Baptist history, the Black Church and the biblical teaching around Covenant to invite us all to defend the democracy that guarantees our freedom to exercise our conscience in practicing the religion (or non-religion) of our choice. SHOW NOTES

Ken's SubStack Page

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Join Ken and Betsey in a review of current headlines. Betsey begins with a review of  Ken's compelling conversation with David Dark. Congress finally has a Speaker of the House. Fears that Jim Jordan might get the gavel left them relieved when Jordan was defeated after grueling three votes. But the new Republican Speaker of the House, a relative unknown up until now, may appear to be a more pleasant, civil version of what may have been. On further inspection, Johnson's ultra-conservative track record reveals that he is an election denier and a pernicious Trump supporter who vehemently opposes same-sex marriage and abortion rights. He and Jordan have been close friends and champions of the extreme right. According to Mike Johnson, it's all rooted in a "biblical world view." Ken and Betsey take issue. Hate crimes are on the rise as narratives clash both in the Israeli/Palestinian War and on the floor of Congress.

Martyn Whittock's Review in the Washington Post | Ken's Interview with MW

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Ken welcomes back author, journalist, and poet, Rick Pidcock. Recently, Andy Stanley sponsored an event called the Unconditional Conference designed specifically for parents whose children "come out" as Queer or LGBTQ. He expressed his deep concern for the ways in which the church has been complicit in creating family conflict that causes parents to choose their church and their theology over their children. On the popular online site Baptist News Global, Rick published two in-depth articles addressing the conference and the conservative critics who surfaced attacking Stanley for embracing this marginalized community. These critics include Al Mohler, Mark Driscoll, R.C. Sproul, and Focus on the Family. Ken and Rick share their own journeys in changing their minds. Rick traces much of the conversation around father wounds. Rick has also written about the crisis of the war between Israel and Palestine. SHOW NOTES

Criticism of Andy Stanley Rooted in Father Wounds, by Rick Pidcock

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When Wheaton College released it's anticipated Report on Race, there was a glaring omission. A comprehensive self-study over the history of the college had an arbitraty cut-off date of the year 2000. While it was an attempt to be transparent, vulnerable, and forthright over past mistakes, the report failed to address the painful departure of the first African American woman tenured professor, Dr. Larycia Hawkins. Ken reached out to Professor David Dark of Belmont University, an outspoken advocate of Dr. Hawkins and her work. They discuss the Wheaton episode. A very popular professor, Dr. Dark is active on social media and highly regarded for his books, his lectures and social commentary. Ken and David cover many topics including the Nashville political scene. Dr. Dark has a personal connection to The Covenant School, where a mass shoting gained national attention and introduced us to the "Tennessee Three" - legislators who made "Good Trouble" on the floor of the legislature demanding a debate on gun control. Ken asked David to continue this lively conversation in a part two, scheduled for next week where they will continue the conversation, including his book Life's too Short to Pretend you aren't Religious. SHOW NOTES

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Ken welcomes author and advocate Liz Cooledge Jenkins to talk about her new book: Nice Churchy Patriarchy: Reclaiming Women’s Humanity from Evangelicalism. When Liz went off to Stanford University, she connected with a group of "Jesus Followers" who were part of an evangelical global campus ministry. In time, she believed she was "called" to pastoral ministry. After graduation, she joined the staff of "Faith Bible"* Church working with college students. But when she was considered for a promotion from full-time intern to candidate for permanent "director" role, she was thoroughly quizzed in the interview about her views on both women in ministry and LGBTQ+. Her questions and evolving beliefs, in the minds of the decision-makers, made her "ineligible" for the job. Patriarchy clearly emerged as the church's policy. She enrolled in seminary to pursue those questions from a biblical, theological, social and cultural perspective, earning an M.Div. from Fuller Theological Seminary. Her conclusions form the content of this compelling book which Ken read in its entirety. As a recovering white evangelical republican male (The Beached White Male), Ken fully recommends Liz's book and this conversation. It is both a challenge to churches and Christians who remain doggedly committed to patriarchy and exclusion as "biblical" and an encouragement to the many who, like Ken and Liz, are in recovery from the toxicity of a religion that robs people of their dignity and value.

SHOW NOTES

*NOTE: "Faith Bible" is not the name of the church. In her book, Liz employs pseudonyms for the individuals, churches, and institutions she references. Her story is not meant to dehumanize or demonize anyone - but to bring to light the damage and wounding inflicted by toxic beliefs and policies that rob communities of faith of the contribution that would otherwise bring energy, life, and a wider perspective.

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Just this week. the two Kens both encountered church-related, disconcerting setbacks.  Kemp learned via an official, public email blast that the lead and founding pastor of the church that gave birth to the Center for Racial Reconciliation has been put on immediate leave of absence for "inappropriate texting." Just after recording this conversation, Fong uncovered some unsettling news from a chance encounter in the grocery store with a former parishioner. From the pulpit of a nearby sister church on Sunday morning, the senior pastor openly charged by name Fong and three other pastors (one deceased) by name as "false teachers" and "wolves in sheep's clothing." 

In this episode, the two Kens unpack some of the many challenges of "mega-church" and the prevalence of vulnerable, celebrity pastors. Fong recalls his doctoral dissertation in which he contributed to the literature of the church growth movement. He disavowed much of that research when he published his 1999 book, Pursuing the Pearl. Mega-churches mimic the "Big Box" phenomena, they've become akin to Walmart, Target, and Costco. 

Some years before he retired, Fong intentionally and willingly opened his church doors and now his podcast to the LGBT+ community. It signaled a change of heart and mind. The church lost members because of that decision but gained a whole lot more. Kemp accepted Fong's challenge to follow suit on this podcast. The two podcasters agree - if we are committed to the "ministry of reconciliation" to marginalized people groups - that should include them all. Kemp and Fong suggest that real church is something more. Much more.

Both Kens release this conversation on each of their podcasts. You can find Ken's edition at Asian America the Ken Fong Podcast, including a telling introduction here.

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I feel the need to clarify some of the things you'll find in my recent Beach Talk with Betsey Newenhuyse. Many of you have already listened in. We had a heartfelt and meaningful conversation around Indigenous Peoples' Day, the congressional predicament over the crippling absence of a Speaker of the House, and the crisis in Israel - the unanticipated and monstrous attack by Hamas on Israel at the border of the Gaza Strip.  We unpacked our understanding of the Palestinian perspective in the Arab-Israeli conflict that has been simmering for nearly a hundred years - throughout history, often breaking out in all-out war.  Today, as I reflect on my conversation with Betsey, I need to make a few things clear.

When we spoke, frankly, I had not understood the horrific magnitude of the massacre that has unfolded before a watching world. The butchery, the carnage, the cruelty unleashed on innocents: young and old, men and women, families and concertgoers. I do now. The bloody scenes are inhuman - impossible to watch.

I just want you to hear me say that I stand with President Joe Biden and the watching world in condemning this violence in no uncertain terms. That we must stand with Israel in ending the bloodshed and making every effort to rescue and release the many hostages who are living today in a terror that I will never fully comprehend.

Let us remember that this well-planned and executed barbarous operation was perpetrated by the radical wing of Hamas - not the Palestinian people.

Whatever your understanding of prayer - let us all pray. Pray for the families who have experienced unimaginable loss. Pray for the hostages - for their safe return home. Pray for the Israeli military as they leap headlong into harm's way. Pray for the Palestinian people in Gaza and other Palestinian territories as Israel retaliates. Pray that political leaders on all sides will find a way to stop the violence. Most of all, pray for peace.

I've been podcasting now for over three years. This is the first time I've felt compelled to broadcast a message like this one.

Thank you for listening. 


We're in this together.

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