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Ken Fong and I unpack the life and legacy of Dr. James Dobson, who just recently passed away. For many of us, Dobson’s voice was a constant presence in American evangelical homes. He was the trusted “family counselor” who seemed to offer simple, practical guidance about raising children, strengthening marriages, and protecting the home. His books—Dare to Discipline, Bringing Up Boys, Bringing Up Girls—were bestsellers, and his radio program reached countless millions. They shaped how countless parents understood what it meant to raise a family in a “Christian” way. 

On the surface, it all seemed non-political, even innocent.

But as the years progressed, it became clear that Dobson was building something much bigger than a parenting movement. He founded Focus on the Family, moved his empire to Colorado Springs, and began to insert himself more directly into politics. Along the way, he inspired children’s programming and homeschooling curriculum. He trained thousands of young people in “Biblical World View.” He became an outspoken promoter of Donald Trump. He engineered the identification of white evangelicalism with the Religious Right, commandeering the Republican Party into an unrelenting culture war. 

Ken Fong shares his research on the roots of Dobson’s work in the discredited “science” of eugenics and names his mentor in psychology, the famed eugenicist and atheist Paul Popenoe.

As Senator Barry Goldwater warned back in 1980, when religious leaders gain control of a political party, it creates a dangerous situation. Goldwater said, “These people believe they’re acting in the name of God, so they can’t and won’t compromise.” Dobson embodied that posture - NO COMPROMISE.

For those of us who grew up under his influence, the costs were real. His insistence on “breaking the spirit” of children, corporal punishment, his crusade against the LGBTQ+ community — fighting same-sex marriage in California’s Prop 8 campaign, promoting conversion therapy, framing homosexuality as a threat to children—all of these left deep wounds. Add to all that, he applauded and facilitated the election of this current wrecking-ball administration.    

As we remember his legacy, we must not ignore his undeniable contribution to the rancorous Us-versus-Them culture in our perilously divided nation. 

In this episode, Ken Fong and I peel back the layers of Dobson’s legacy. His death may close a chapter, but the impact of his divisive ideology continues to shape families, churches, and American politics.

SHOW NOTES

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In this episode, I sit down with two longtime friends of the podcast: Osahon Obazuaye, pastor and activist, and Grant Young, who holds both undergraduate and graduate degrees from one of America’s leading evangelical universities. Both of them bring firsthand experience as Black men navigating predominantly white evangelical spaces—churches, classrooms, and institutions that shaped their faith journeys in both inspiring and challenging ways.

We discuss the powerful new documentary, “Black + Evangelical”—a film that shines a spotlight on the history, struggles, and contributions of African American evangelicals. The documentary amplifies voices that too often go unheard, voices like Dr. Vincent Bacote, theologian and ethicist at Wheaton College; the late Dr. William E. Pannell, co-founder of the National Black Evangelical Association; historian and author Jemar Tisby; and the unforgettable preacher Tom Skinner, whose Urbana ’70 sermon still resonates today. We even revisit the legacy of Howard O. Jones, the first Black associate evangelist with Billy Graham.

This conversation is eye-opening, personal, and at times raw—but it’s also deeply hopeful. We unpack the film, share stories, and challenge assumptions about what it really means to be both Black and evangelical in America.

So join us —you’ll come away inspired, challenged, and ready for more.

SHOW NOTES

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Today I welcome a familiar voice and a longtime friend—Dr. Randall Balmer. Back in the day, when we were “Trinity Men,” he was “Randy” to me. Today, he’s Dr. Balmer—historian, author, professor, and one of the leading voices on religion in America. He earned his graduate degrees at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School, Princeton, and Union Theological Seminary, and this marks our third interview together.

Randall recently published a powerful piece in the Los Angeles Times about the 1925 Scopes Trial—often remembered as the showdown between Genesis and Darwin. He reminds us that the trial wasn’t supposed to be about evolution at all, but that’s where it landed. William Jennings Bryan thundered that “if evolution wins, Christianity goes.” Clarence Darrow countered, “It’s not Scopes on trial—it’s civilization.” Nearly a century later, the questions linger.

Randall also brings us into his latest book, America’s Best Idea: The Separation of Church and State. It’s a sweeping story—Roger Williams’s “hedge of separation,” Jefferson’s Danbury letter, Madison, Adams, and the First Amendment—all the way to today’s battles over vouchers, religious schools, and the religious right. Along the way, we’ll talk about court rulings, culture wars, and the ongoing debate over whether America is a Christian nation—or a nation that protects the freedom of every faith, and of no faith at all.

It’s always a rich conversation when Dr. Balmer joins me, and today is no exception. 

Come on along with us! SHOW NOTES

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Today, I’m here with my good friend and fellow podcaster, Ken Fong. Every week, the two of us dig deep into the big conversations shaping our lives, our culture, and the soul of our nation. We come to you from different vantage points, different life experiences, but with a shared commitment to truth, curiosity, and connection.

This week, we talk about something that’s been quietly eroding the way we live together as Americans — the loss of a national audience. Remember when 34 million people tuned in to watch The Cosby Show? Today, Stephen Colbert barely pulls in 3 million viewers. We’re living in silos now, fragmented into tribes, each consuming our own narrow stream of information. Entertainment. E pluribus unum — out of many, one — feels more like a historical slogan than a lived reality.

We’ll also tackle the ongoing culture wars: from attacks on diversity, equity, and inclusion, to the rise of a “colorblind” narrative that erases cultural heritage, to the growing movement to merge church and state. Figures like Doug Wilson, Pete Hegseth, Russell Vought, and Charlie Kirk are openly advocating for a theocratic America — one where women are subordinate and “Christian nationalism” rules the land.

And beyond politics, we’re looking at the real impact of fear and division — from ICE raids in our neighborhoods to the suppression of voices that challenge the status quo.

It’s time to wake up. 

Join us in the conversation.

SHOW NOTES

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I’m honored to welcome Dr. Edward J. Larson to this episode of the podcast. Dr. Larson is the Pulitzer Prize-winning author of Summer for the Gods: The Scopes Trial and America's Continuing Debate Over Science and Religion, a landmark work that reexamines the 1925 Scopes “Monkey” Trial with fresh insight and scholarly depth.

In our conversation, Dr. Larson challenges the familiar narrative popularized by Inherit the Wind, revealing the Scopes Trial as far more than a simple clash between science and religion. It was, in fact, a complex cultural moment shaped by political ambition, regional identity, national media, and the anxieties of a rapidly modernizing society.

We explore key figures—Clarence Darrow, William Jennings Bryan, and John Scopes—and their roles in this iconic legal battle. Dr. Larson offers fascinating context around Bryan’s progressive credentials, his anti-evolution stance, and his public persona as a speaker and political leader. We also discuss the broader implications of the trial for American legal and educational systems, and how its legacy continues to inform today’s debates over religion in public life, science education, and Christian nationalism.

Dr. Larson reflects on his personal and academic journey, from his early years to his study from college, to grad school, to law school, and his doctoral dissertation on the history of science. He shares what inspired his deep investigation into the Scopes Trial—ultimately culminating in the Pulitzer Prize in 1998. 

This episode is both thought-provoking and timely. I invite you to join me for a meaningful conversation that sheds new light on a pivotal moment in American history. SHOW NOTES

Ken’s Substack: Scopes in 2025

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My guest is Matt Mikalatos — author, screenwriter, producer, and all-around brilliant storyteller. 

He has written award-winning books, including the beautifully illustrated graphic novel God With Us, the devotional Praying with Saint Nicholas, and an imaginative Young Adult fantasy series, The Sunlit Lands. He’s also co-authored Loving Disagreement with Kathy Khang — a timely, powerful book about how to stay in relationship, even when the culture says it’s time to cancel.

As an undergraduate student in creative writing at the University of California, Riverside, Matt studied under the Pulitzer Prize-winning novelist, Percival Everett, author of the wildly popular novel entitled JAMES.  

Matt’s story doesn’t stop there. He spent 20 years with a global campus ministry (Campus Crusade for Christ now known as CRU), lived in China, became fluent in Mandarin, and worked deeply in cross-cultural ministry. He’s seen the evolution — or devolution — of Evangelicalism from the inside, and he doesn’t shy away from talking about it. From Trumpism and anti-democratic rhetoric to hot-button issues like immigration, LGBTQ rights, and even “chainsaw massacre” politics, we go there — and Matt helps us understand the power of story over shouting matches.

There’s exciting news - he’s just been notified that a script he’s written has been greenlit. The production of a full-length feature film begins soon, with filming in Thailand.

Join me as Matt and I talk about faith, storytelling, culture, and how, in this divided world, we can still communicate and respect each other — even when we disagree. It’s a lively, eye-opening, and deeply human exchange you won’t want to miss. SHOW NOTES

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Today, I’m joined by my longtime friend Mike Mizrahi—yes, we go way back. Mike’s career took him from an undergraduate degree in journalism to a Master's in corporate communication. He had a career as a corporate spokesperson, but his real passion found its home in writing historical fiction. And his latest novel, The Weight of Loyalty, is a great achievement. I read it with great interest; a powerful, rich exploration of the perils of wartime on the Greek Isles.

It’s a sweeping story of love, sacrifice, and moral conflict, set against the backdrop of World War II on the Greek island of Kefalonia. Inspired by the real-life survival story of Royal Navy seaman John Capes, Mike weaves the tale of Oliver Graham, a British submariner, and Natalía Giannatos, a Greek woman whose life is touched by war, love, and spiritual searching. Think James Michener meets Ernest Hemingway—with a splash of Greek wine and Orthodox mysticism.

We discuss why historical fiction matters, what drew Mike to this particular time and place, and how personal research—a research tour on the island of Kefalonia—shaped every detail from the rugged landscape to the local cuisine to miracle-working monks.

But this isn’t just a war story. It’s a love story on many levels—and a deeply reflective one at that. Mike wrestles with big questions: the cost of conscience, the meaning of faith, and what it really means to be loyal.

If you’ve ever wondered how fiction can serve as therapy—or how an author channels personal values into imagined worlds—this conversation’s for you. So stay tuned, and enjoy this rich, thoughtful dive into The Weight of Loyalty with my good friend, Mike Mizrahi. SHOW NOTES

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In this important and timely episode, I welcome back journalist, author, and friend of the podcast, Peter Wehner. We dig into his provocative and widely discussed article in The Atlantic: “Why Evangelicals Turned Their Back on PEPFAR.”

PEPFAR—President George W. Bush’s historic global AIDS relief program—has saved over 26 million lives and prevented millions of HIV infections. Once championed by American evangelicals, the program is now in crisis. Under Donald Trump’s second term, PEPFAR was effectively shut down. Clinics have closed, aid has stalled, and more than 75,000 lives have already been lost—with millions more at risk.

So why the silence from the evangelical community?

Peter and I explore the cultural, political, and theological reasons behind this shift—from compassion to indifference—and why this issue, which should unite pro-life Christians, has instead fallen off the radar. We also reflect on how partisan loyalty, fear of division, and moral inconsistency have muted the response to one of the most effective humanitarian programs in U.S. history.

This conversation is urgent, eye-opening, and deeply relevant to anyone who cares about faith, politics, and the real-world impact of silence. I hope you’ll join us. This is one you don’t want to miss. SHOW NOTES

MSNBC Morning Joe

RNS on PEPFAR

RNS - Nashville’s Christian music stars join activists in push to save PEPFAR

Holy Post talks about PEPFAR

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This week, Ken Fong and I take on a sobering question: Why do so many Americans celebrate cruelty? With the help of British psychiatrist Dr. Russell Razzaque, we explore the mental state of Donald Trump and the deeper dynamics that fuel authoritarian behavior. At the core? Fear. Not fear of crime or poverty—but of losing status, especially among white men who once held unchallenged social dominance.

We look at the disturbing celebration of cruelty—like the now-infamous photo of Trump, Marco Rubio, and Kristi Noem laughing in front of cages at “Alligator Alcatraz,” a holding camp for migrants. For many in the MAGA base, this isn’t about policy—it’s about resentment, superiority, and pushing others down to feel powerful again.

Drawing on insights from David Brooks and Alasdair MacIntyre, we trace how our culture shifted from communal virtue to individual preference. We’ve moved from the language of “duty” and “honor” to the language of “want” and “leverage.” And in doing so, we've lost the moral grounding that once came from religion, tradition, and community.

The 2024 award-winning German feature film, The Zone of Interest, makes the powerful, dramatic point. We humans can be so focused on our personal comfort and well-being that we remain oblivious to the callous cruelty and inhuman brutality right next door.

We also ask: How did compassion and humility get replaced by bile and demonstrative cruelty? Why does backing and supporting Trump feel personal and set in stone to his followers? And how do we reclaim a moral vocabulary that elevates character over charisma?

Finally, don’t miss our call to action: Join the Good Trouble movement this month. Protest. Speak up. Reclaim our shared values.

LINKS: 

Psychiatrist Russell Razzaque, M.D.

ATLANTIC David Brooks

FILM: ZONE OF INTEREST

GOOD TROUBLE Protest 

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Today, we have a conversation that’s very personal for me. I’m pleased to welcome author Dave Larsen to discuss his powerful new novel, Green Street in Black and White: A Chicago Story. I can relate to the story - I was born in Chicago, lived in Wheaton as a boy, and worked in my first role as a Youth Pastor in Maywood, when “white flight,” the fear-driven, racially charged mass exodus of whites to the suburbs, was in full swing.

Dave takes us back to his childhood in 1960s Englewood on Chicago’s South Side — a neighborhood on the cusp of racial transformation. Through the eyes of young Erik Pedersen and his band of friends, the Green Street Boys, we witness how ordinary families struggled with fear, prejudice, and white flight — but also how kids on bikes found friendship, loyalty, and glimmers of understanding across deep divides.

Though fiction, the novel is steeped in Dave’s own memories — from riding in his Irish uncle’s squad car to watching his white church confront the arrival of Black families. We talk about it all: street smarts and playground humor, church politics, family tensions, and tragic turning points.

Dave shares from his deep spiritual and academic roots — a Calvin College English degree, seminary at TEDS, and a doctorate from Loyola — to explore big questions: Can the church truly become a diverse place? Is racial reconciliation even possible?

We reflect on the courage it takes to tell hard stories with no sugar-coated ending. And we hear why Green Street in Black and White matters — especially now.

It’s a heartfelt, honest episode I’m pleased to share. SHOW NOTES

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