"The Cognitive Revolution"

Emmett Shear and Séb Krier debate whether today’s AI alignment paradigm—focused on control and instruction-following—is fundamentally flawed. PSA for AI builders: Interested in alignment, governance, or AI safety? Learn more about the MATS Summer 2026 Fellowship and submit your name to be notified when applications open: https://matsprogram.org/s26-tcr. They explore what changes if advanced AIs are better understood as beings with their own values, and why current control methods could drift toward something like slavery. The conversation dives into “organic alignment,” multi-agent simulations, evolving cooperation, and the possibility of AI moral standing as systems gain memory and continual learning.

Sponsors:

MATS:

MATS is a fully funded 12-week research program pairing rising talent with top mentors in AI alignment, interpretability, security, and governance. Apply for the next cohort at https://matsprogram.org/s26-tcr

Tasklet:

Tasklet is an AI agent that automates your work 24/7; just describe what you want in plain English and it gets the job done. Try it for free and use code COGREV for 50% off your first month at https://tasklet.ai

Agents of Scale:

Agents of Scale is a podcast from Zapier CEO Wade Foster, featuring conversations with C-suite leaders who are leading AI transformation. Subscribe to the show wherever you get your podcasts

Shopify:

Shopify powers millions of businesses worldwide, handling 10% of U.S. e-commerce. With hundreds of templates, AI tools for product descriptions, and seamless marketing campaign creation, it's like having a design studio and marketing team in one. Start your $1/month trial today at https://shopify.com/cognitive

CHAPTERS:

(00:00) About the Episode

(03:44) Defining organic AI alignment

(14:48) Technical vs value alignment (Part 1)

(19:55) Sponsors: MATS | Tasklet

(22:56) Technical vs value alignment (Part 2) (Part 1)

(31:34) Sponsors: Agents of Scale | Shopify

(34:21) Technical vs value alignment (Part 2) (Part 2)

(34:22) Labs, tools, and beings

(43:22) AI personhood and consciousness

(56:53) Safe futures and Softmax

(01:04:17) Chatbots, mirrors, simulations

(01:10:14) Doom, futures, and OpenAI

(01:17:25) Outro

PRODUCED BY:

https://aipodcast.ing

SOCIAL LINKS:

Website: https://www.cognitiverevolution.ai

Twitter (Podcast): https://x.com/cogrev_podcast

Twitter (Nathan): https://x.com/labenz

LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/nathanlabenz/

Youtube: https://youtube.com/@CognitiveRevolutionPodcast

Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/de/podcast/the-cognitive-revolution-ai-builders-researchers-and/id1669813431

Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/6yHyok3M3BjqzR0VB5MSyk

Kathleen Fisher and Byron Cook dive into automated reasoning and formal verification as tools for building truly secure software systems. PSA for AI builders: Interested in alignment, governance, or AI safety? Learn more about the MATS Summer 2026 Fellowship and submit your name to be notified when applications open: https://matsprogram.org/s26-tcr. They explain how formal methods can harden critical infrastructure against AI-enabled cyberattacks, and how assumptions, specifications, and proofs combine to deliver real security guarantees. The conversation explores using these techniques to train coding models, enable a “great software rewrite,” and power AWS’s new automated reasoning checks for AI agents and policy compliance.

Sponsors:

MATS:

MATS is a fully funded 12-week research program pairing rising talent with top mentors in AI alignment, interpretability, security, and governance. Apply for the next cohort at https://matsprogram.org/s26-tcr

Tasklet:

Tasklet is an AI agent that automates your work 24/7; just describe what you want in plain English and it gets the job done. Try it for free and use code COGREV for 50% off your first month at https://tasklet.ai

Agents of Scale:

Agents of Scale is a podcast from Zapier CEO Wade Foster, featuring conversations with C-suite leaders who are leading AI transformation. Subscribe to the show wherever you get your podcasts

Shopify:

Shopify powers millions of businesses worldwide, handling 10% of U.S. e-commerce. With hundreds of templates, AI tools for product descriptions, and seamless marketing campaign creation, it's like having a design studio and marketing team in one. Start your $1/month trial today at https://shopify.com/cognitive

CHAPTERS:

(00:00) About the Episode

(04:52) AI Reshapes Cybersecurity

(10:16) Formal Methods Foundations

(17:46) Security Properties Assumptions (Part 1)

(21:27) Sponsors: MATS | Tasklet

(24:27) Security Properties Assumptions (Part 2)

(28:31) Helicopter Formal Verification

(38:15) Proof Confidence And AWS (Part 1)

(41:52) Sponsors: Agents of Scale | Shopify

(44:40) Proof Confidence And AWS (Part 2)

(50:33) Automated Reasoning For Policies

(01:04:39) Generative AI Meets Verification

(01:19:42) Securing Future AI Systems

(01:31:19) Agentic Guardrails And Governance

(01:40:44) Outro

PRODUCED BY:

https://aipodcast.ing

SOCIAL LINKS:

Website: https://www.cognitiverevolution.ai

Twitter (Podcast): https://x.com/cogrev_podcast

Twitter (Nathan): https://x.com/labenz

LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/nathanlabenz/

Youtube: https://youtube.com/@CognitiveRevolutionPodcast

Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/de/podcast/the-cognitive-revolution-ai-builders-researchers-and/id1669813431

Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/6yHyok3M3BjqzR0VB5MSyk

This year-end live show features nine rapid-fire conversations to make sense of AI’s 2025 and what might define 2026. PSA for AI builders: Interested in alignment, governance, or AI safety? Learn more about the MATS Summer 2026 Fellowship and submit your name to be notified when applications open: https://matsprogram.org/s26-tcr. New York Assemblymember Alex Boris breaks down the RAISE Act's bid to curb catastrophic AI risks, the governor negotiations, and why a16z-backed ads are targeting him. Former White House AI adviser Dean Ball maps the emerging coalitions on AI, federal preemption, and what fast-improving coding agents could mean for policy and jobs. Forecaster Peter Wildeford debates selling vs "renting" chips to China and offers a 2026 outlook on agents, costs, and robotics. Recorded live as part of our AI 2025→2026 series (Part 2).

Sponsors:

Gemini 3 in Google AI Studio:

Gemini 3 in Google AI Studio lets you build fully functional apps from a simple description—no coding required. Start vibe coding your idea today at https://ai.studio/build

MATS:

MATS is a fully funded 12-week research program pairing rising talent with top mentors in AI alignment, interpretability, security, and governance. Apply for the next cohort at https://matsprogram.org/s26-tcr

Framer:

Framer is the all-in-one tool to design, iterate, and publish stunning websites with powerful AI features. Start creating for free and use code COGNITIVE to get one free month of Framer Pro at https://framer.com/design

Shopify:

Shopify powers millions of businesses worldwide, handling 10% of U.S. e-commerce. With hundreds of templates, AI tools for product descriptions, and seamless marketing campaign creation, it's like having a design studio and marketing team in one. Start your $1/month trial today at https://shopify.com/cognitive

Tasklet:

Tasklet is an AI agent that automates your work 24/7; just describe what you want in plain English and it gets the job done. Try it for free and use code COGREV for 50% off your first month at https://tasklet.ai

CHAPTERS:

(00:00) Sponsor: Gemini 3 in Google AI Studio

(00:31) RAISE Act status

(04:52) Catastrophic risk focus

(10:47) Super PAC backlash

(16:17) Data centers and grid

(19:47) Palantir and surveillance

(23:42) Dean Ball joins (Part 1)

(23:46) Sponsors: MATS | Framer

(27:05) Dean Ball joins (Part 2)

(32:00) Social media lessons

(36:22) Trump preemption and chips (Part 1)

(40:51) Sponsors: Shopify | Tasklet

(43:59) Trump preemption and chips (Part 2)

(44:50) Structural US-China decoupling

(49:39) Peter on chip ban

(55:43) Threat model and renting

(01:02:55) Cost drops, revenue

(01:16:03) Forecasting paradigm shifts

(01:20:38) 2026 agents and robots

(01:31:41) Show wrap and markets

(01:42:28) Outro

PRODUCED BY:

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This year-end live show features nine rapid-fire conversations to make sense of AI’s 2025 and what might define 2026. PSA for AI builders: Interested in alignment, governance, or AI safety? Learn more about the MATS Summer 2026 Fellowship and submit your name to be notified when applications open: https://matsprogram.org/s26-tcr. Zvi Moshowitz maps the OpenAI–Anthropic–Google race, the denialism gap, and why his PDoom is still ~60–70%. Greg (ARC-AGI Prize), Eugenia Kuyda, Ali Behrouz, Logan Kirkpatrick, and Jungwon Hwang cover sample-efficient benchmarks and ARC-AGI 3, companions and human-flourishing metrics, continual-learning memory, Gemini 3 Flash for developers, and AI for scientific decisions.

Sponsors:

Gemini 3 in Google AI Studio:

Gemini 3 in Google AI Studio lets you build fully functional apps from a simple description—no coding required. Start vibe coding your idea today at https://ai.studio/build

MATS:

MATS is a fully funded 12-week research program pairing rising talent with top mentors in AI alignment, interpretability, security, and governance. Apply for the next cohort at https://matsprogram.org/s26-tcr

Framer:

Framer is the all-in-one tool to design, iterate, and publish stunning websites with powerful AI features. Start creating for free and use code COGNITIVE to get one free month of Framer Pro at https://framer.com/design

Shopify:

Shopify powers millions of businesses worldwide, handling 10% of U.S. e-commerce. With hundreds of templates, AI tools for product descriptions, and seamless marketing campaign creation, it's like having a design studio and marketing team in one. Start your $1/month trial today at https://shopify.com/cognitive

Tasklet:

Tasklet is an AI agent that automates your work 24/7; just describe what you want in plain English and it gets the job done. Try it for free and use code COGREV for 50% off your first month at https://tasklet.ai

CHAPTERS:

(00:00) Sponsor: Gemini 3 in Google AI Studio

(00:31) Live show experiment

(02:26) Zvi: discourse and denial

(13:28) Continual learning and doom

(22:05) ArcAGI: what's missing (Part 1)

(22:09) Sponsors: MATS | Framer

(25:28) ArcAGI: what's missing (Part 2)

(31:58) Scaffolds and tiny models

(38:58) ArcAGI 3 game worlds

(45:13) AI companions landscape (Part 1)

(45:21) Sponsors: Shopify | Tasklet

(48:29) AI companions landscape (Part 2)

(58:14) Wabi apps and caution

(01:08:16) Nested learning, layered memory

(01:23:14) Gemini 3 Flash launch

(01:34:09) RAG, agents, dev advice

(01:42:20) Elicit speeds evidence synthesis

(01:57:57) Outro

PRODUCED BY:

https://aipodcast.ing

Andy Masley on AI energy and water use unpacks common myths and brings an Effective Altruism lens to the debate. PSA for AI builders: Interested in alignment, governance, or AI safety? Learn more about the MATS Summer 2026 Fellowship and submit your name to be notified when applications open: https://matsprogram.org/s26-tcr. You’ll get memorable heuristics—one ChatGPT query ≈ running a microwave for one second; 10,000 queries ≈ a cross-town car trip, burger, or hot shower—and clear comparisons about data center power, solar land area, and an estimated 80 GW buildout. We also cover local impacts, water trade-offs, uncertainty drivers, and why AI’s global resource footprint is smaller than many fear while noting where caution is still warranted.

LINKS:

Sponsors:

Framer:

Framer is the all-in-one tool to design, iterate, and publish stunning websites with powerful AI features. Start creating for free and use code COGNITIVE to get one free month of Framer Pro at https://framer.com/design

Agents of Scale:

Agents of Scale is a podcast from Zapier CEO Wade Foster, featuring conversations with C-suite leaders who are leading AI transformation. Subscribe to the show wherever you get your podcasts

Tasklet:

Tasklet is an AI agent that automates your work 24/7; just describe what you want in plain English and it gets the job done. Try it for free and use code COGREV for 50% off your first month at https://tasklet.ai

Shopify:

Shopify powers millions of businesses worldwide, handling 10% of U.S. e-commerce. With hundreds of templates, AI tools for product descriptions, and seamless marketing campaign creation, it's like having a design studio and marketing team in one. Start your $1/month trial today at https://shopify.com/cognitive

PRODUCED BY:

https://aipodcast.ing

Max Tegmark and Dean Ball debate whether we should ban the development of superintelligence in a crossover episode from Doom Debates hosted by Liron Shapira. PSA for AI builders: Interested in alignment, governance, or AI safety? Learn more about the MATS Summer 2026 Fellowship and submit your name to be notified when applications open: https://matsprogram.org/s26-tcr. They unpack the Future of Life Institute's call for a moratorium until there is broad scientific consensus and public buy-in, contrasting Tegmark’s precautionary stance with Dean’s emphasis on experimentation, competition, and practical policy hurdles. Listeners will get clear takes on p(doom), the limits of FDA-style regulation, unilateral ban risks, and what safe, beneficial advanced AI might realistically look like.

LINKS:

Sponsors:

Framer:

Framer is the all-in-one tool to design, iterate, and publish stunning websites with powerful AI features. Start creating for free and use code COGNITIVE to get one free month of Framer Pro at https://framer.com/design

Agents of Scale:

Agents of Scale is a podcast from Zapier CEO Wade Foster, featuring conversations with C-suite leaders who are leading AI transformation. Subscribe to the show wherever you get your podcasts

Tasklet:

Tasklet is an AI agent that automates your work 24/7; just describe what you want in plain English and it gets the job done. Try it for free and use code COGREV for 50% off your first month at https://tasklet.ai

Shopify:

Shopify powers millions of businesses worldwide, handling 10% of U.S. e-commerce. With hundreds of templates, AI tools for product descriptions, and seamless marketing campaign creation, it's like having a design studio and marketing team in one. Start your $1/month trial today at https://shopify.com/cognitive

PRODUCED BY:

https://aipodcast.ing

CHAPTERS:

(00:00) About the Episode

(05:43) Cold open and intro

(09:21) Opening statements: ban debate (Part 1)

(14:49) Sponsors: Framer | Agents of Scale

(17:11) Opening statements: ban debate (Part 2)

(17:11) Licensing-style AI regulation

(26:52) Liability, tail risks (Part 1)

(33:24) Sponsors: Tasklet | Shopify

(36:32) Liability, tail risks (Part 2)

(39:23) Timelines and precautionary regulation

(47:03) Defining superintelligence and risk

(52:26) Risk-based safety standards

(56:28) Current regulations and definitions

(01:05:23) Max's doom scenario

(01:19:46) P-doom gap and adaptation

(01:34:40) National security and China

(01:43:57) Closing statements and reflections

(01:55:22) Host debrief and outro

(02:02:10) Outro

Marek Kozlowski, Head of the AI Lab at Poland's National Information Processing Institute, discusses project PLLuM (Polish Large Language Models). PSA for AI builders: Interested in alignment, governance, or AI safety? Learn more about the MATS Summer 2026 Fellowship and submit your name to be notified when applications open: https://matsprogram.org/s26-tcr. He shares how countries like Poland can achieve AI sovereignty by training small, locally-adapted models for specific languages and cultures, ensuring control, privacy, and cost advantages. The conversation delves into challenges like frontier models' English bias, EU regulations, and technical strategies like "Language Adaptation" on base models. Discover how transparently created, locally-controlled AI offers a viable path for nations to maintain their technological destiny.

LINKS:

Sponsors:

Google AI Studio:

Google AI Studio features a revamped coding experience to turn your ideas into reality faster than ever. Describe your app and Gemini will automatically wire up the right models and APIs for you at https://ai.studio/build

Agents of Scale:

Agents of Scale is a podcast from Zapier CEO Wade Foster, featuring conversations with C-suite leaders who are leading AI transformation. Subscribe to the show wherever you get your podcasts

Framer:

Framer is the all-in-one platform that unifies design, content management, and publishing on a single canvas, now enhanced with powerful AI features. Start creating for free and get a free month of Framer Pro with code COGNITIVE at https://framer.com/design

Tasklet:

Tasklet is an AI agent that automates your work 24/7; just describe what you want in plain English and it gets the job done. Try it for free and use code COGREV for 50% off your first month at https://tasklet.ai

Shopify:

Shopify powers millions of businesses worldwide, handling 10% of U.S. e-commerce. With hundreds of templates, AI tools for product descriptions, and seamless marketing campaign creation, it's like having a design studio and marketing team in one. Start your $1/month trial today at https://shopify.com/cognitive

PRODUCED BY:

https://aipodcast.ing

CHAPTERS:

(00:00) Sponsor: Google AI Studio

(00:31) About the Episode

(03:17) Sovereign AI in Poland

(04:41) The Case for Localization

(13:38) The PLUME Project's Mission (Part 1)

(20:25) Sponsors: Agents of Scale | Framer

(22:47) The PLUME Project's Mission (Part 2)

(22:47) Defining Polish AI Values

(35:32) Sourcing and Curating Data (Part 1)

(35:38) Sponsors: Tasklet | Shopify

(38:46) Sourcing and Curating Data (Part 2)

(44:40) Small Models, Big Advantage

(58:21) Training and Domain Adaptation

(01:12:22) Compute, Talent, and Geopolitics

(01:22:50) Forming International AI Alliances

(01:27:41) Decentralized AI and Conclusion

(01:31:47) Outro

This special ChinaTalk cross-post features Zixuan Li of Z.ai (Zhipu AI), exploring the culture, incentives, and constraints shaping Chinese AI development. PSA for AI builders: Interested in alignment, governance, or AI safety? Learn more about the MATS Summer 2026 Fellowship and submit your name to be notified when applications open: https://matsprogram.org/s26-tcr. The discussion covers Z.ai's powerful GLM 4.6 model, their open weights strategy as a marketing tactic, and unique Chinese AI use cases like "role-play." Gain insights into the rapid pace of innovation, the talent market, and how Chinese companies view their position relative to global AI leaders.

Sponsors:

Google AI Studio:

Google AI Studio features a revamped coding experience to turn your ideas into reality faster than ever. Describe your app and Gemini will automatically wire up the right models and APIs for you at https://ai.studio/build

Agents of Scale:

Agents of Scale is a podcast from Zapier CEO Wade Foster, featuring conversations with C-suite leaders who are leading AI transformation. Subscribe to the show wherever you get your podcasts

Framer:

Framer is the all-in-one platform that unifies design, content management, and publishing on a single canvas, now enhanced with powerful AI features. Start creating for free and get a free month of Framer Pro with code COGNITIVE at https://framer.com/design

Tasklet:

Tasklet is an AI agent that automates your work 24/7; just describe what you want in plain English and it gets the job done. Try it for free and use code COGREV for 50% off your first month at https://tasklet.ai

Shopify:

Shopify powers millions of businesses worldwide, handling 10% of U.S. e-commerce. With hundreds of templates, AI tools for product descriptions, and seamless marketing campaign creation, it's like having a design studio and marketing team in one. Start your $1/month trial today at https://shopify.com/cognitive

PRODUCED BY:

https://aipodcast.ing

CHAPTERS:

(00:00) Sponsor: Google AI Studio

(00:31) About the Episode

(03:44) Introducing Z.AI

(07:07) Drupu AI's Backstory

(09:38) Achieving Global Recognition (Part 1)

(12:53) Sponsors: Agents of Scale | Framer

(15:15) Achieving Global Recognition (Part 2)

(15:15) Z.AI's Internal Culture

(19:17) China's AI Talent Market

(24:39) Open vs. Closed Source (Part 1)

(24:46) Sponsors: Tasklet | Shopify

(27:54) Open vs. Closed Source (Part 2)

(35:16) Enterprise Sales in China

(40:38) AI for Role-Playing

(45:56) Optimism vs. Fear of AI

(51:36) Translating Internet Culture

(57:11) Navigating Compute Constraints

(01:03:59) Future Model Directions

(01:15:02) Release Velocity & Work Culture

(01:25:04) Outro

Rune Kvist and Rajiv Dattani, co-founders of the AI Underwriting Company, reveal their innovative strategy for unlocking enterprise AI adoption. They detail how certifying and insuring AI agents, through rigorous technical standards, periodic audits, and insurance, builds crucial "AI confidence infrastructure." This discussion explores how their model addresses AI risks, enables risk pricing in nascent domains, and aligns financial incentives for safe, responsible AI deployment.

LINKS:

Sponsors:

Tasklet:

Tasklet is an AI agent that automates your work 24/7; just describe what you want in plain English and it gets the job done. Try it for free and use code COGREV for 50% off your first month at https://tasklet.ai

Shopify:

Shopify powers millions of businesses worldwide, handling 10% of U.S. e-commerce. With hundreds of templates, AI tools for product descriptions, and seamless marketing campaign creation, it's like having a design studio and marketing team in one. Start your $1/month trial today at https://shopify.com/cognitive

PRODUCED BY:

https://aipodcast.ing

CHAPTERS:

(00:00) About the Episode

(02:53) AI Risks and Analogies

(09:14) Insurance, Standards, and Audits

(14:45) Insuring Ambiguous AI Risk (Part 1)

(14:54) Sponsor: Tasklet

(16:05) Insuring Ambiguous AI Risk (Part 2)

(25:26) Managing Tail Risk Distribution

(27:45) Introducing The AIUC1 Standard (Part 1)

(27:50) Sponsor: Shopify

(29:46) Introducing The AIUC1 Standard (Part 2)

(35:45) The Business Case

(40:43) Auditing The Full Stack

(48:00) The Iterative Audit Process

(54:58) The AIUC Business Model

(01:02:26) Aligning Financial Incentives

(01:08:56) Policy and Early Adopters

(01:11:58) Outro

SOCIAL LINKS:

Website: https://www.cognitiverevolution.ai

Twitter (Podcast): https://x.com/cogrev_podcast

Twitter (Nathan): https://x.com/labenz

LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/nathanlabenz/

Youtube: https://youtube.com/@CognitiveRevolutionPodcast

Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/de/podcast/the-cognitive-revolution-ai-builders-researchers-and/id1669813431

Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/6yHyok3M3BjqzR0VB5MSyk

AI that sells, reasons, and closes like your top rep? It sounds terrifying—but it’s not. Amanda Kahlow’s Superhumans are proving that automation doesn’t erase people; it elevates them. Her team rewards employees who replace their own jobs with AI by promoting them, not firing them. And her customers? They’re seeing sales cycles shrink from 22 days to 2 and average deal sizes double.
In this episode, Zapier CEO Wade Foster and Amanda dig into what “AI-led growth” really means—and why the smartest move in 2025 isn’t resisting AI, it’s learning how to lead with it. They unpack why 76% of 1Mind’s pipeline now comes from their own AI, and how org charts are evolving around a new role: the agent manager.
It’s a grounded, surprisingly human look at the future of work—and a reminder that the best way to stay relevant is to build the AI version of your best self. As Amanda puts it: “Your sellers hallucinate—AIs do it less.”
Learn more about Zapier! https://bit.ly/3IFKUiI
************************
Agents of Scale is a show about real stories of AI transformation. Hosted by Zapier CEO Wade Foster, each episode features a candid conversation with a C-suite leader who’s scaling AI across their organization, turning early experiments into lasting change. From mindset shifts to automation breakthroughs, these are the untold stories behind the enterprise AI wave.
If you're interested in real-world applications of AI, automation strategy, or how business leaders are navigating digital transformation, this show is worth a listen.
If you like hearing how companies like Zapier, Klaviyo, Newfront, Gamma, and Gainsight are using AI to solve real problems and scale smarter, you’ll find these conversations both practical and inspiring.
This podcast is a great listen if you're searching for topics like AI in business, enterprise automation, how companies are using AI in the real world, artificial intelligence strategy at Klaviyo or Gainsight, or what digital transformation looks like at scale. You’ll also find it helpful if you’re looking for AI case studies, automation in the workplace, or examples of C-suite leadership driving innovation with AI.
Zapier is a no-code automation tool that empowers you to automate your work across 5,000+ apps—so you can move forward at growth speed. Spend less time on busy work and more time focused on what matters most. Get started with Zapier for free at: https://zpr.io/XUiAHTJw2csj
Subscribe to the Zapier YouTube channel so you don't miss other important tutorials and integrations:
https://www.youtube.com/Zapier
Need customer support? https://zapier.com/app/get-help

PRODUCED BY:

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