The founder and CEO of The Trade Desk, Jeff Green, talks about the evolution of the premium internet, his obsession with the ad tech supply chain and why the connected TV (CTV) ecosystem is ready for an upgrade.

Green explains why The Trade Desk is launching Ventura, a streaming TV operating system, named after the California beach town, to improve the CTV ecosystem for publishers, advertisers and consumers.

__________

The Current is owned and operated by The Trade Desk Inc.

Toby Espinosa, the VP of DoorDash ads, reflects on the tremendous growth of the delivery platform, saying the key to this is local businesses.

Episode Transcript

Please note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio.

Damian: [00:00:00] I'm Damian Fowler.

Ilyse: And I'm Ilyse Liffreing

Damian: And welcome to this edition of The Current Podcast.

Ilyse: This week, we're delighted to talk with Toby Espinoza, the VP of DoorDash Ads.

Damian: And Toby is responsible for connecting brands, local and national, to the more than 37 million customers who place orders on DoorDash marketplaces each month.

Ilyse: At this point, DoorDash is a household name, no pun intended. It has more than 7 million couriers delivering orders for DoorDash from around 550, 000 merchants.

Damian: Hard to believe that the company was founded just over 10 years ago in 2013. And Toby joined the company in 2015. So he's seen DoorDash go from strength to strength.

Naturally, we start by asking him about how the company has changed over the last decade.

Ilyse: So Toby, DoorDash celebrated its 10th anniversary last year. And I, I remember when you guys launched, I would just say, because I was like a hungry college student at the time.

And it was like, perfect timing to get [00:01:00] anything delivered to my dorm

Toby: And where were you?

Ilyse: In San Francisco.

Toby: Francisco? No way. Oh, awesome.

Ilyse: was like, yeah, it was like I was in the right place at the right time for sure. Yes. And, so how would you say has the company evolved from a food delivery platform to the platform it is today?

Toby: When I joined the company, we were in 4, 5 metros.

And we were completely focused on one product in four or five markets. And back in 2015 when I joined the food delivery market, as you remember, seamless reigned supreme in New York. Grubhub was in Chicago and everywhere else food delivery was pizza: Domino's, Papa John's, Pizza Hut. And a few local restaurants that were able to afford having couriers. The market, everybody thought, was saturated. We entered, the company had a thesis that the market itself, given the advent of mobile technology, we believed that [00:03:00] if you took this device, this mobile device, where now a dasher had a mobile phone, a consumer had a mobile phone, and actually restaurants had access to this mobile superhighway, that if we connected all of them, there would be a larger opportunity for growth.

Growth being the key word there, because as much as DoorDash has changed over the last 10 years, we have gone from a one product, one market business to a multiple product, multiple geography business, with 37 million monthly active users, over 15 million monthly active subscribers to our platform.

If you go back to our founding story, Tony, Stanley and Andy, when they started DoorDash, walked down University Avenue in Palo Alto and they went from store to store asking every local business, how can I help you grow? That was the founding question. It wasn't can I build a logistics network, it wasn't, can I build an ad business? It was, “Hey, how can I help you grow?” And the opportunity they found was let's do a restaurant oriented delivery network for everybody across suburban markets. And that's what took off.

Ilyse: How would you say that growth has like translated on the ads marketplace side of things? 

Toby: Yeah.

The hard part about building something at the scale that DoorDash [00:05:00] operates is the consumer side. Building a consumer promise and then making that promise better and better and better every day, getting faster and cheaper, that is actually the harder part to find.

Product market fit from a consumer perspective. Once we have that, and once we have that, we want to continue to compound that over and over and over again

About four, four years ago, five years ago, our merchants and so stores within our ecosystem raised their hand and started to ask us, “Hey, do you have any tools to help me grow even faster?” That's how the ad business started. It was a it's very fundamental. It's a core to who we are. It's a growth business. We have customers who want to grow [00:06:00] faster. And what we then tried to figure out was how can we help serve this promise for these customers while also helping our marketplace continue to grow?

So the best way to do that is to align incentives, uh, show us the incentive, and we'll show you the outcome that we're driving towards.

Our AD team is incentivized both by driving incremental return from a spend perspective for advertisers, as well as driving incremental volume for our consumer marketplace, which is very different than most advertising platforms. Most advertising houses, you have product and tech on one side driving growth, and you have ads trying to monetize it on the other side. We wanted to bring those together to make sure we were able to continue to grow on both sides and serve our customers best. 

Damian: And cut to date to this rise of, spectacular rise of retail media, which of course is one of the hottest topics right now in our space. DoorDash of course has built its own retail media network in recent years. Could you talk a little bit about how you took some of those concepts you just talked about and built the network?

Toby: Yeah, absolutely. So we, again we wanted to be completely aligned with the customer. So the first customer that we started to think about was the SMB owner operator restaurant that we all know, that's in our town.

In San Francisco, it's Suvla. In New York, it's Electric Burrito. These places that, these brands [00:08:00] that we are absolutely in love with. What we quickly realize is that person, that customer, there's two fundamental things that are very difficult.

The first is that they have to be an expert at 15 different things So, if we own a local restaurant, a local retailer, We have to be great at real estate. We have to be great at marketing. We have to be great at financials. We have to be great at accounting. We have to be great at customer service. We have to be great at creating a great product, which is food, right?

And so when we look at this core customer, they're supposed to be an expert at 15 different things Our job is to go after one of those. And make sure that they don't have to think about that growth as [00:09:00] much as they used to by putting a little bit of the burden of that growth on our shoulders. What that means in practice when we launched the business for for SMB customers, we focused on building an economic model that worked for them. 

Last week, in San Francisco, I went and picked up a salad. at, at one of my favorite, favorite places. And there was a restaurant right next door that had just opened a month in. A month in, and nobody in his restaurant.

Completely empty. Maybe three or four people in a, in, that could otherwise have a capacity of 50. And I went online and I looked. He was running advertising across a bunch of different channels that we all know. Snap, Google, Meta, etc.

This person was in the red month day one of the month.

It's one of the hardest things in this country. These small businesses that start [00:10:00] negative every single month. And on top of that, they also had to layer in more spend on Google and meta to try to get out of that hole.

We took the premise of we want to be your growth assistant and we took the premise of it's really, really hard. for you to basically grow your business without having to also add more money into this negative cash cycle.

And we said, let's build a product where you do not have to pay us unless you get an order.

So unless we send you money, you do not have to pay us. And those two things together have helped us build one of the fastest growing retail media networks, particularly focused on a customer that was completely underserved. 

Damian: Could you talk about, a little bit more about how you [00:11:00] kind of expanded those relationships with both the national brands, tying that into the local, the business works at a local level fundamentally.

Toby: So in the restaurant space. The vast, vast majority of restaurants on Main Street are local. Even if you are a McDonald's franchisee, so you have one of the largest brands, you're a, you're a small business owner.

Really, the, the Starbucks, the Chipotles of the world that are corporately owned restaurants at scale are actually the smallest. They're the 10%, not the 90 percent in the U. S. And so our ad product designed on a CPA based level where we can be the growth assistant for all these owner operators is really for the 90.

It's built for the majority. Um, that being said, we also just launched, uh, last week the our new product, which is our ad manager and our [00:12:00] ad manager for the enterprise restaurant segment is designed actually to help both the C. M. O. Of McDonald's and the owner operator franchisee within the system. And the way that we've done that is we've actually built the first of its kind way of buying or thinking about purchasing across

A national media buyer, an agency at the national level, a district media buyer, most of these franchisees actually also have districts, or DMAs, where they have their own pools of funds that can be allocated for growth, and then also at the local level. Incremental to that, not only is if you're a franchisee and you own a couple McDonald's and a couple, uh, you know, a couple Subways and a couple other brands. Now you can also manage your business across brands. It's really the first of a kind product in its space, designed entirely to kind of work between local and national brand.

We also, of course, support local. started to invest in larger CPGs. And there, you know, we really look at some of the other large retail media networks in the [00:13:00] space. You know, today I was reading the the amazing work that you all did with a woman who leads Kroger's retail media business and built it from scratch.

We find a lot of inspiration from those folks learning, understanding how we can add an incremental service to folks that are already spending a lot of money at other retail media networks. And, um, and I think we found Uh, some very cool opportunities for us there, 

Ilyse: Very cool. You were saying how it's about 90 percent SMBs and 10 percent um, big business. Um, how does that play out within the DoorDash platform?

Toby: yeah.

yeah. So so it's really and when I meant that it's kind of think about where the dollars are coming from. So You might think of DoorDash Volume as large businesses. You know, a lot of people are ordering McDonald's. But the reality is the, the spender, the buyer of media could be a local franchisee.

So the brand is national, but the spend is still local. That's kind of what I was saying there. On [00:14:00] the, as you know, also on the CPG side, uh, large brands like Pepsi and Coca Cola and P& G, those are large, national, entrenched franchises. Brands. Those are timeless, timeless brands that have been around for a very long time.

And so the question there is, how do we build products that are timely to help the timeless? And that's been a very interesting journey for us over the last two and a half years. It's a, it's a new space for us again, as I said. Um, but it's going swimmingly well. And, and today we have the opportunity to sit on stage with, with Pernod Ricard, which is, of course, one of the storied alcohol manufacturers.

Ilyse: Um, can you talk a little bit about the Partnerships and how you actually go about working with like those brands and retailers that are using your platform so much 

Toby: We, like I said, were founded as a growth helper. So built in our DNA is working with others to help them grow.

We obviously have a [00:15:00] very large consumer marketplace that is that has helped those businesses grow. And so some of us think of in the same You know, uh, letters of other large consumer marketplaces like an Amazon, uh, like a Walmart e com.

But we are fundamentally built in our DNA a partner oriented culture. What that means is first we get to partner with great local brands, mid market brands, national brands, add in the manufacturers, but that also means we get to do fun things like Add in Max, or add in Chase, or add in other folks where there are a lot of people, if given the opportunity, want to help local businesses grow.

Our job is to help figure out a way to make that happen. 

Ilyse: would you say that is captured users I guess and they're

Toby: It's a, no, it's a great question. The underlying thing is, how do we do it in a way that continues to compound our consumer promise, which is faster, better, cheaper. And, and, you know, we'll be the first to say there are some partnerships [00:16:00] where it doesn't necessarily help that much.

And then there's other partnerships where it has been critical. Think about our Chase partnership and, and the depth in which we've built that partnership over time, where everybody that has a, you know, a Chase credit card has the opportunity to participate in one of the largest subscription, local subscription programs, uh, in the world.

And so, some work quite well, others are challenging, and we're a first principled company that, that tries to get better every single day.

Damian: Just to on that point are you very strategic about looking for new partnerships you know, that's an interesting one chase and of course there are many others but how do you think about it and go about building those different partnerships.

Toby: Yeah it's a collaboration Internally within DoorDash, we have, uh, general managers that run different business units, just as myself. We have functional leaders like our incredible, uh, CMO Kofi, who has built one of the world's largest brands in a span of years, not decades, which is incredibly, incredibly amazing, and he is a celebrity. If you ever want to feel like a [00:17:00] celebrity, just walk with Kofi in Cannes for about 15 to 20 minutes and it'll be the coolest thing you'll ever experience.

Um, next year, exactly, exactly. Um, but It's a collaboration across different functions, and then it's a collaboration with a partner. You know, one of the most interesting partnerships that we've launched in the last two years, from my vantage point, is we are a close partner with Amazon in Canada. Now, a lot of folks, when you think of DoorDash and Amazon would say, competitors, that, that doesn't work.

Right. But we work really, really hard to try to figure out anywhere, if possible, with the largest businesses and brands that we look up to, is there a place that we can collaborate and again, help local businesses grow. That's the fundamental premise behind the whole thing 

Ilyse: very cool now what about when it comes to like an ad perspective. How are you working with these brands and partnering with them?

Toby: Yeah, we are, I think in the ad ecosystem, you know, it's, it's, it's, there's a simple recipe that we're trying to follow. One is access. So can I [00:18:00] provide access for people to purchase? We, very early on, our first investment was in a self serve ad manager, so that local businesses could purchase our products, both promotions and our ad products, live themselves, without needing to talk to somebody.

So that was first. So one is access. That's the news also from last week, where now we provide access to the largest restaurant brands, DMAs, and franchisees across the country. first of a kind product. Again, I know I keep saying that, but I'm very, very proud of it because not many people, not many technologists build for franchisees in this country.

And they are one of the largest, um, one of the largest, most hardworking groups of individuals that that again, we look up to. Um, so one is access Two is providing the tools to get the best return possible. So that is, can I do better targeting? Can I? Are there new access points that I can, that I can get to?

Along those lines, we've invested a lot in in better targeting again for those enterprise restaurants. [00:19:00] So today you can target new users, you can target lapsed users, you can do that if you're a brand, a small brand like a single owner operator, you can do it if you're a national restaurant, and you can also do it if you're one of the largest brands in the country.

So one is better targeting tools and incrementality. And then the final is, is impressions. So, You know, DoorDash, again, we are humbly one of the favorite and largest marketplaces in the country. But we very well know there are other people that are hungry on a daily basis who are not eyes on DoorDash.

And so, can we provide the ability for people, uh, for brands to reach those people using our data? And that was one of the announcements we made last week was as well.

Ilyse: so one of the things I feel like DoorDash is almost known for in the advertising marketing space is it aligns itself to big occasions throughout the year.

Ilyse: I know we saw [00:20:00] DoorDash for the Super Bowl, Mother's Day. Can you talk about how you plan for such occasions? And maybe what's your favorite one to work at on and be like present

Toby: maybe what's Yeah We have learned over time that these occasions. Because we learned from our core customers, both the consumer and merchants that these occasions are important to them.

So if you think of, if you think of Super Bowl, imagine you are a local owner operator of a wing restaurant in Tulsa. Super Bowl is your Super Bowl, right? It is the biggest day of the year where you sell out your entire inventory at the staff up, you have to build for it. We wanted to follow our customers into that moment.

Mother's Day, huge moment.

Both for folks where it's a special day to remember somebody or for folks that are trying to be a mother for the first time, right? So you have this both, both signs, [00:21:00] an incredible opportunity to reach consumers

from an advertising perspective. Again, going back to partnerships, they're tricky.

You have an advertiser who's excited to also follow you into that occasion. And what we try to do with these three way partnerships, we've done them with Wendy's, we've done them with Roku, we've done them with many others, trying to find three way alignment of incentives to, to again, drive local growth for our customers.

Damian: I think one of the best gifts I ever got, was when my son was born somebody bought us a DoorDash gift card which was so helpful to have food delivered you know when you’re at home with this tiny little baby.

Ilyse: Showing up at those occasions, but also, you know, just ongoing brand campaigns. How does that proximity, why is it important for brand building? How does this, like, enable you to extend into new categories?

Toby: Yeah, have you? Um, Our Super Bowl commercial is a great example of this. This past year, uh, the words were a door to more DoorDash went from again being a single vertical single product company to a multi vertical multi product company in a very, very, very fast time frame. Now, consumers are incredible.

They learn very quickly. Habits are harder to change and harder to adapt and move over [00:23:00] time. And so we are in the earliest innings of our consumers really understanding that now you could actually get a pair of sneakers delivered to you on DoorDash when you need a new pair, like I did this weekend in order to go for a run.

And in that moment, being able to kind of jump on these large consumer moments help from our vantage point.

Our 37 million monthly active users start to understand that really DoorDash is here as an assistant in your life across all of these categories and verticals whenever you need us. We aren't just Thai food, now we're also the ability to get something, uh, to get something when you're feeling sick.

And, um, and we're very, very proud to do that and very humbled to do that for our customers. 

Damian: Yeah. that's uh, expanding the whole concept of, of of DoorDash. Um, speaking of expanding the concept, you know, you've also cultivated good partnerships with streaming partners, and you [00:24:00] mentioned Max a little bit earlier. Why is it that streaming and delivery seem to kind of work in synchrony? 

Toby: it's again, I think it goes back to the moment. There's a very happy moment in my household when we finish work. And we have some, we get a little, a door, a little ring on our door, and there's a package outside, and it's filled with two burritos. And we get to turn on Max and watch industry. There's a sliver of moment in time where we're just feeling absolute happiness and joy.

Now, that is a moment that a lot of consumers around the country and around the world feel. We're trying to give everybody a little bit of time back. Again, this concept of putting the weight of other things on our shoulders as a company to help people, to help local economies grow, to help [00:25:00] save consumers time, to help Dashers make a little bit of extra money.

That is what we are trying to do at Dash. And so, aligning ourselves in this moment of peace. This moment of just absolute happiness with a streaming service, which all of us experience,

is a very nice moment to be right next to, uh, to be right next to these brands from a consumer perspective. And so they've been, they've been very, they've been great partnerships so far.

We're very excited, uh, about, about thinking about finding more of those opportunities as time goes 

Damian: about door dashes as a way to get time back, you know, but of course it does does

Ilyse: There's too many things to worry about outside of that. 

Damian: we're going to ask the inevitable question about AI and how, you know, obviously door dash must be integrated with AI technology. But how do you think about it as we look ahead?

Toby: We, as a company were very [00:26:00] data driven company. We have been from our founding. Again, we are riding on the backs of one of the largest technological revolutions of our time, the Internet and then the Internet plus mobile. And so to say that we want to be and continue to be students about how this next revolution will change, both from.

from our merchants, consumers and dashers lives. We are in the very earliest innings and we're trying to learn as fast as possible. Um, I think what's very exciting if you kind of take a step back and you again put on the mindset of the shoes of we are trying to be an assistant for all of our customers across a bunch of different ways.

Dasher Make, uh, from a financial services perspective, helping them make more money, helping them find more opportunities to make money, consumers saving time, and merchants making more. If you kind of put yourselves in all those shoes, and we're trying to be an assistant, AI as a technology will only help accelerate our mission of doing that and then unlocking growth for local.

I think we're going to [00:27:00] see one of the largest increases in, in growth that we desperately, desperately need for those. Places that are our favorite coffee shop, Thai food place, uh, and, and, um, you know, and place to go pick up your, your, your meds when you're a little sick. And so it's, it's a pretty cool future.

We're very excited for it.

Damian: in his 50 seat

Toby: I, we are absolutely, we, to be, to be clear, we DoorDash. He's now using our ad product. So if we can send them any incremental customers, it'll help them. It'll help them grow his business. 

Damian: There's one more question, I guess. And it's a sort of like a forward looking question. And it's are there any innovations that you're thinking about into 2025 that can help with this growth mindset that you've been talking about? 

Toby: we, We've done an okay job. We've done a great job of the access point, which is opening up an ad manager, [00:28:00] opening up a self serve sponsored listing, allowing CPG brands to access our consumers. We've done it. We've done a great job at that. We've done an okay job at the second two, which is.

once you open up a lot of this inventory and help find ways to grow, it gets complex.

I think we've added incremental complexity so far to our customers' lives for most of our customers, our advertisers, and so our team is extremely excited, looking forward to continue to take more of the complexity out of our customer's lives as we layer in more complexity. On the product and engineering platform that we've built internally, and that is a very hard problem to solve, but I have one of the best teams to help us go solve that, and we're very excited to take it on.

SiriusXM Media’s Lizzie Collins joins The Current Podcast to discuss artificial intelligence, omnichannel campaigns and how influencers should utilize podcasts.

Episode Transcript

Please note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio.

[00:00:00] Damian: I'm Damian Fowler.

[00:00:01] Ilyse: And I'm Ilyse Liffreing

[00:00:02] Damian: And welcome to this edition of the Current Podcast.

[00:00:05] Ilyse: This week, we're delighted to talk with Lizzie Collins, the SVP of Ad Innovation and B2B Marketing at SiriusXM Media, the advertising arm of SiriusXM, which includes Pandora, the SiriusXM streaming network, as well as the podcast network.

[00:00:21] Damian: There are likely very few people who know more about audio ad innovation than Lizzie, who was actually the very first salesperson at Pandora back in 2006. 

[00:00:31] Ilyse: As a leader at SiriusXM Media, her focus is growing the largest digital audio ecosystem in North America.

[00:00:39] Damian: So without further ado, we'll start by asking Lizzie about what advertisers need to know about the audio ad opportunity in 2024.  

[00:00:47] Ilyse: So Lizzie, tell us, what is it that advertisers need to know about the opportunity to reach people on audio channels?

[00:00:55] Lizzie: Yea, and thanks for having me. I love what you said about, I know everything about audio, but it's been quite a ride from 2006 until now. And I'd say that in this current moment in time, audio has such an important place in the consumer's life. 31, 32, whichever number you want to get hooked to percent of time spent with media is the audio format, and yet marketers are only allocating somewhere between 8, 9 under 10 percent of their media investment to this format.

[00:01:21] So first and foremost, I want advertisers to know just the power of audio. It is an opportunity to reach customers in places where you can't reach them via display or video. It has the power to turn on their brain in a unique way because you have the theater of the mind that has to like fill in the pictures and the faces.

[00:01:38] And so cognitively, it's just such a powerful way to message. And so when you match the power of the format with, Oh my gosh, there's all this incremental time that I'm not messaging to them. We just think there's a real opportunity in audio in general.

[00:01:54] Ilyse: So looking at podcasting at least, podcasting isone of the fastest [00:02:00] growing digital channels. How have you been able to grow programmatic at Sirius XM and Pandora?

[00:02:49] Lizzie: Well podcasting, I think we all love. We're here on a podcast. So this is very meta talking about podcasting on a podcast. I love that. I want to point that out for the listeners. podcasting is not [00:03:00] necessarily new, but the ability for advertisers to buy it at scale with maybe an audience based buying strategy with all of the tracking and targeting that they're used to in digital is what we've really foundationally been putting in place for the last two years.

[00:03:13] So what many don't know is that SiriusXM Media, Pandora, SoundCloud, and all of our other partnerships operate on the AdsWiz platform. And we are an audio first technology company. We built all of our own audio, ad delivery, ad serving, tracking, and whatnot. The opportunity to modernize the podcast space is what's really been the key factor for us to drive revenue in that space.

[00:03:35] And then specific to programmatic without those pipes, right? Without that ability to do dynamic ad insertion, to target audiences, to onboard data, and then digitally deliver those ads, you were going to have buyers doing what they were doing historically one show at a time. I can't tell you the stories, the horror stories of going into the clients and saying, here's our spreadsheet where we're tracking the [00:04:00] podcasts we think we should be buying based on Joe podcast guy in the corner who just happens to know the most about podcasts.

[00:04:06] So It's, the first step was putting that foundational ad tech in place. And the second step has been taking all of what advertisers appreciate in terms of programmatic transaction and bringing it to podcasting. And that's where IAB and others are referencing this significant growth because it's this bringing the best of two worlds together into this medium.

[00:04:26] Ilyse: What would you say are the advantages to programmatic ad buying on audio networks? How is it audience first? Well,

[00:04:34] Lizzie: Well, I think overall you're seeing a big trend in advertisers. Brands, even within the client agencies, publishers wanting to reduce friction on the buy side and the transaction as a whole. So programmatic obviously has been that promise for, gosh, over a decade now, right? To Create just an effortless buying transaction.

[00:04:57] And so when we think [00:05:00] about audio more specifically and audience based buying, like we have to be able to connect all of those pipes and be able to not be this hard to buy. Product. And so we've, you know, I spoke to that in my last example. that's been so much of the work we've done the last two years.

[00:05:16] And then because of all of that, we're a little different than some other audio partners were open ecosystem. So we will work with any third party measurement vendor, transaction partners like the trade desk, um, targeting partners like Comscore and advertisers obviously have their own data and their own ways in which they want to measure.

[00:05:34] And so that's also been, a huge breakthrough for us. For us in terms of allowing you said audience based buying. I mean, just allowing our clients to address their customers in this format in the most effortless way 

[00:05:46] Damian: One of the things that's interesting about audio is how it's different from, TV, which has traditionally been a big brand building medium. Of course, that's changing too because of CTV, but I'm interested to hear your thoughts on how Pandora thinks about [00:06:00] his ad offerings in terms of the balance between big brand campaigns and performance.

[00:06:06] Lizzie: Yeah, you know, it's interesting. I think what's hidden in this question is creative in general and trying to help brands understand the power of what audio creative can do. It can create. effortlessly travel cross device, right? It can reach customers where they're not seeing a video ad or they're not seeing a display ad.

[00:06:27] It can get right literally into their ears. And I talked about, the power of that. And so we, I would say, do talk to our customers about different products, drive different results. Of course, you might want mass reach and super efficient for, some effort. That you're trying to push maybe top of funnel or you need something super geo targeted You want to move specific product off a store shelf?

[00:06:50] Yeah, that can impact targeting and that can impact some of what we sell you based on price But we spend a lot more time through our in house agency studio resonate [00:07:00] Helping to educate our customers on the right way to bring the video message into the audio format. If they're a video first creative agency, and that starts with an audio brief, you'd be surprised how many agencies do a creative brief and it doesn't include audio as a way to interpret the brand or determine the call to action.

[00:07:20] And so once we get going in that direction, then we can take all aspects of their KP eyes and build custom creative to meet the needs of whatever they're trying to get the consumer to do. I love

[00:07:30] Damian: I love that, can I ask a follow up question about that? What would you say are some of the salient points about building a good audio brief? Well,

[00:07:47] Lizzie: is the largest podcast network for women in the United States. We beat everyone else. And it's that type of insight and then the creators that are within our podcast network to say, look, [00:07:58] Lizzie: Ashley Flowers is here.

[00:07:59] She's a [00:08:00] massive star in the podcast world. She really has a tempo to her shows. It's true crime. These listeners are so leaned in that you don't need a music bed. You don't need a scream at the listener in that example, which might be more of a sort of traditional upbeat 15 second audio spot that might live in a music station.

[00:08:19] And so a lot of it is trying to understand the customer. Then. What is the, context in which we're targeting? And then of course we have a million best practices about, testing creative. And we use a lot of third parties to come in and actually pre test creative. of course we have all of our own technology, which I mentioned.

[00:08:34] So we'll AB test creative. and again, what I love about audio is that it's pretty effortless to build an audio ad. you can go from brief to a spec spot, 30 minutes. Or less if we're talking about a I produced creative, which we can talk about, too. And so to be able to have all that optionality for an agency to play with actually helps inform a lot of landing the brief.

[00:08:58] And then, of course, we have something to [00:09:00] live with throughout a campaign to reach back to

[00:09:02] Damian: So it's getting a lot more nuanced now that you mentioned creativity, and that's very interesting.

[00:09:07] Lizzie: It's getting more nuanced because, look, you said I was the first salesperson at Pandora and I was, and we were only ever inserting a 15 or a 30 second spot in between your favorite song. Now we're talking about spoken word content, podcast, it could be sports, it could be country music, you're talking about, and then in car.

[00:09:26] at home mobile. So the good news is all of that signal capture we do on our end that we can understand where ultimately this ads running and then that informs how many creative options you need. But it's not like video where that would take months to do, right? This is copy to add is quick.

[00:09:54] Ilyse: When it comes to being more nuanced, looking at podcasts for instance, there’s so many different types op podcasts like true crime you brought up. I like those ones as well. Like crime junkie, [00:10:00] for instance. What kind of audiences are they attracting? And what does that mean for advertisers?

[00:10:06] Lizzie: So the Sirius XM podcast network is over 2500 shows. So you're talking about we're have the most shows in the top 50, but we also have great shows, middle and long tail. And so, it's as diverse as everybody's tastes. I mean, everything from vibe check, which is three African American gay, really outspoken guys that do the latest on news interpreted from their eyes and their ears all the way into crime junkie all the way into sports.

[00:10:34] we have shows about car racing, right? So it's That's what's so special about podcasting. But what's unique about Sirius XM and our specific network is that you don't have to come in and buy one show at a time. You can come in and say, I want women over index and true crime. So that's going to be a nice part of your buy.

[00:10:53] and that's something unique , to what we offer. 

[00:11:00] Ilyse: It's surprising to me, women and true crime for some reason. 

[00:11:01] Lizzie: I know. You know what? I think it's because so many women want to escape. They're day for a moment, all of our beloved housewives at home, like commuting kids around. And it's very cerebral. what's really cool about true crime that I don't think a lot of people understand if you don't listen, is it's problem solving.

[00:11:21] It's like really detailed, trying to get to the bottom of what happened with the story. And I think it turns the brain on in a way that is invigorating. 

[00:11:29] Ilyse: Yeah, on that note, is True Crime like one of the most popular or what are some of those popular genres

[00:11:36] Lizzie: there's so many. Comedy is very popular. Team Coco with Conan O'Brien is within our network. Smartless is a really popular TV show. Sort of mixed in with almost pop culture and comedy. sports is growing fast and specifically, women's sports, which is great. And what, I think is fun about that is there's so much story to tell behind the scenes in sports.

[00:11:58] And I think podcasts can do that in a [00:12:00] way that linear TV can't, news, true crime like we mentioned. And yeah, those would be like my tops.

[00:12:07] Ilyse: Very cool. Why do you think women's sports is growing

[00:12:09] Lizzie: I just think there's so much of a story to tell about a lot of the women athletes and it's all over the news, right? What's happening in women's basketball, women's soccer is now a professional sport where you can make a career at it. I think there's just so much growth in terms of audiences leaning in and there's a bunch of commercial opportunity there.

[00:12:29] And so, women want to tell, women want to tell their story. And you can do that in podcasting in a way you cannot do in other media types. That's why we're here!

[00:12:38] Damian: exactly. Yeah. Now, according to your research with Edison, 66 percent of Gen Z podcast listeners say they listen to or watch podcasts to stay up to date with the latest topics. But only 17 percent say they trust the info they read on social media, our podcast hosts, the new, more trusted social media influences.

[00:12:58] Lizzie: I mean, yes, [00:13:00] short answer is yes, but I don't think it's just podcast. I think any influencer out there that is very invested in their craft and their trade and having a commercial opportunity and being an influencer understands the power of how podcasting and audio more specifically helps them reach their audience.

[00:13:16] So Ashley flowers is a great example. She's on social all the time, whether she's talking about fashion or her famous lip color or what shows are coming up next, different cases that she's, researching.

[00:13:28] And so you'll often see her listeners kind of go back and forth on social and that ultimately informs her show. And so this, ecosystem connection is what these influencers are after. And I think the power of the podcast format is they can just tell deeper stories and therefore tell deeper, you know, why to buys for the products that are integrated.

[00:13:49] So some are probably more comfortable than others, but the audio influencer, and the other thing to add is just like they're connected to their audience in a way off social media and into the [00:14:00] podcast where they can just use more words. They can just describe something beyond the snippet based format that is social for all of us..

[00:14:12] Damian: And why is that effective for advertisers? Why is that helpful?

[00:14:14] Lizzie: I just think they can riff. It's just it's out again outside of the 15 or 30 second window. They can riff about why they like the product. They can go deeper into the benefits of it or what is cool about it to them. so personal endorsement. I mean, that's what they're able to do in that space.

[00:14:29] And it's a super powerful way for advertisers to drive, their KPIs. 

[00:14:34] Damian: So, when it comes to that omni channel experience, podcasts are, and you mentioned that you're part of this open network. It's good for advertisers to be able to reach their audience on the podcast, but beyond that, it can obviously, drive an omni channel campaign.

[00:14:51] Lizzie: Yeah. And I'm glad you brought that up. We were so curious about what is the true income mentality of a podcast listener. And [00:15:00] so for the last year, we've been analyzing campaigns. We actually analyzed over 2000 campaigns to determine when we add podcasting to a streaming plan, how much more incremental reach.

[00:15:11] And it depends on the campaign. But the mean was 32%. Incremental audience was captured in the podcasting line, essentially being added to the order. And so without that, those customers would have never been messaged. And I think that's just a really good example of the power of what Sirius XM media brings to bear.

[00:15:29] Even in the audio space, we have such a multi channel opportunity for our marketers.

[00:15:34] Ilyse: So, I saw an interview with you last year talking about how advertisers can use AI to save costs. And that's seems like a very common refrain in the industry right now because things have moved very fast on the front. How are you thinking about a I in 2024 this year? Yeah, you

[00:15:54] Lizzie: you know, there's a lot.

[00:15:56] Lizzie: around AI, a lot of buzz and how does it ultimately [00:16:00] land for each of us to make our lives easier or to augment what we're already doing. And one of the things that we see with smaller brands and smaller buys is that sometimes they feel like there's a barrier of entry if they don't have audio creative.

[00:16:17] And so we've done a lot of testing to leverage AI to be able to like. self service, the creative process. And so, that's where we're leveraging AI, which is just to take a company that, might be in media agency. That's of one person, right? That kind of like kitchen counter, digital marketer that might have a couple clients.

[00:16:35] Maybe they have a couple car dealers or maybe they have a couple of doctor's offices. And so we have a really great product that they can use in our audio go, which is our self serve buying tool to just come in and quickly make an audio ad. and they're off to the races. And so that's where we've tried to bring it forth is just where can we make someone that might be stuck because they don't have the resources, how can we help them scale?

[00:16:58] And so AI [00:17:00] helps us do that. I think there's also a future of where we'll see AI show up and how we're just crunching numbers for our clients and how we're processing data. It's just about speed and scale. It's not going to replace our creators. We're, there's no AI Conan coming anytime soon.

[00:17:16] Ilyse: a particular sector of brand that have been, more friendly towards audio ads or have approached audio? More enthusiastically than others? Mm

[00:17:29] Lizzie: years into this selling audio business. And I would say years ago, yes, it would be, entertainment really understood the power of it. And maybe someone like CPG was like, ah, if I don't show the girl shampooing her hair, how's anyone going to understand how this product works?

[00:17:44] But we're so past that. There's no one vertical. I think just the one. Overwhelmingly, it's just an underspent problem and that audio and the consumer behavior and audio is outpaced the marketer's investment. So that's just most of what we spend time helping them to [00:18:00] understand.

[00:18:02] Damian: Do you still think, given the big opportunity that audio represents, there's a lot more education to be done for marketers? And what does that look like? Yeah.

[00:18:28] Lizzie: is last click attribution. Not to say that everyone's doing that now.

[00:18:31] Many of our customers are going to more of a mixed media model. And so it's just helping them to figure out where do you put audio in your measurement plan? How do we work together to make sure you're understanding where you're delivering impressions against what customers and how ultimately that's driving your KPIs.

[00:18:48] But it requires a conversation and education because they're not inherently, if they're not buying it, they don't know how to measure it and they could be undervaluing it or giving value to a different partner because they weren't capturing the right [00:19:00] data signal.

[00:19:01] Ilyse: How do you guys measure it?

[00:19:03] Lizzie: So it depends on what they're looking for. Of course, there's many amazing third parties out there that were integrated with to measure everything from store traffic to attitudinal intent. but again, back to the fact that we own all of our own ad tech, we sit on The right data in a very privacy safe place to be able to work with clean rooms or work with advertisers directly or partners to share impression level data or whatever is the right signal in order for them to recognize if that customer converted so it's not rocket science.

[00:19:32] All of us that are in this space understand how it works, but because we sit on all of our own ad tech and we're open to working with anyone, we personalize it for whatever the customer wants. 

[00:19:42] Damian: And that's it for this edition of The Current Podcast.

[00:19:44] We'll be back next week, so stay tuned.

[00:19:47] Ilyse: The Current Podcast's theme is by Love Caliber. The current team includes Kat Vesce and Sydney Cairns.

[00:19:55] I'm Damian.

[00:19:55] Ilyse: I'm Ilyse.

[00:19:56] Damian: And we'll see you next time. And if you like what you hear, please subscribe and leave us a review. Also, tune in to our other podcast, The Current Report.

The reservation platform Resy centers itself around the communal experience that comes from dining, affirming and building connection between restaurants and diners, according to CMO Hannah Kelly.

Episode Transcript

Please note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio.

[00:00:00] Damian: I'm Damian Fowler.

[00:00:01] Ilyse: And I'm Ilyse Liffreing

[00:00:02] Damian: welcome to this edition of The Current Podcast.

[00:00:05] Ilyse: This week, we're delighted to talk with Hannah Kelly, the CMO of Resy.

[00:00:09] Damian: Want to make a restaurant reservation? American Express owned Resy is there for you. With over 40 million global users, the app has driven over 600 million reservations. Now that's a lot of fine dining, I imagine.

[00:00:23] Ilyse: With almost 14 years of working at American Express under her belt, Hannah leads marketing efforts to connect restaurants and tastemakers.

[00:00:31] Damian: We start off by talking about the value of customer data and how insights inform Resy's marketing strategy. 

[00:00:38] Damian: We work in an industry where, data is capital. You know, how does Resy rely on the customer data, especially from its parent company, American Express?

[00:00:47] Hannah: Sure. So thank you so much for having me. And you could argue that the premise of the Resyacquisition was based on American Express's deep use of data. So when we look at spend at American Express, dining one [00:01:00] of our highest spend categories. We reached 100 billion in spend for the full year in 2023 for the first time ever.

[00:01:06] So for us, being an American Express and in the business of membership, we are constantly looking for ways to engage and attract card members and deepen our relationships with merchants. Resy naturally presented that opportunity as a way for us to own an asset, own a brand, and build a community of being able to connect the world's best restaurants to the world's best diners on a proprietary basis.

[00:01:28] Damian: That makes a lot of sense. I, as an Amex owner, do spend a lot in restaurants. I wonder if you have any interesting stories around turning those insights into action.

[00:01:38] Hannah: Sure. So, We know that millennials and Gen Z's are worried about making the perfect reservation. In fact, we commissioned our own research and we found that 50 percent of the millennial and Gen Z population are worried about making the perfect reservation.

[00:01:52] And so with that, that drove three sort of primary objectives and campaigns for us. So first is our brand platform. we launched a brand platform in [00:02:00] 2023 called Reservationships, which is really meant to highlight how that Resy is more than reservations, really being that trusted partner in crime when you don't know where to go.

[00:02:09] You want to have that fine dining moment with your potential in laws to be with a new date. How can we really own the fact that Resy has served as that sort of curator, and role. I think the second piece has been, this past year we introduced our Resy shareable hit list. so what that function allows you to do in the iOS app is anyone can go in and create a list based on any title that you want.

[00:02:31] Go to date nights. Kid friendly places. You name it. We have some very creative takes in there. and you can share them out with friends. So again, it's really meant to give users the confidence that they are selecting and making the best reservation possible for them.

[00:02:48] Hannah: And we've extended that and really leaned into that a bit more with our third deliverable this year, which has been around the launch of our discover tab.

[00:02:54] So now when you go into the Resy app, you not just only see a list of restaurants based [00:03:00] on your location or cities. We've always had collections, but now our discover tab actually brings in all of our editorial content into the app. And just for reference in Q one of 2024, we highlighted over 000 plus restaurants in all of our editorial across 300 stories.

[00:03:17] So now all of that content is there in formats that can helpfully guide users on how they can connect with restaurants that they should love if they don't know them already and ones that they want to continue to celebrate their love for and be a patron of.

[00:03:28] Ilyse: You know, retail data continues to have a moment among marketers. In your experience, how much do these insights influence your strategy? And what do you think is the future of this type of data?

[00:03:42] Hannah: So I think for us, guest research is the number one place that we constantly look to. And for us, a lot of that is where are people notifying, where are people searching, where are people dining. And at American Express, we're able to see where our card members are spending. And with Resy, we're able to see where they're searching.

[00:03:57] And we use that to inform our research. Anything from [00:04:00] the restaurants that we go after on our platform. So being really thoughtful around what are the types of cuisines that might be missing? What are the types of underrepresented cuisines or restaurants that we need to bring onto our platform? So what's not being searched for?

[00:04:11] and then obviously our product offering. So as mentioned, really trying to tap into ways that we can not only help diners based on research that we've collected, but also By introducing the discover tab by introducing things like shareable hit list. Those give us new avenues to really discover. What are the trends and what are the capabilities and offerings that Resy can provide?

[00:04:31] And even more importantly, what can we pass to our restaurants that they could learn about guests that they might not be able to get on their own? So we think about it not only as What type of research can we use to improve the experience around discoverability and in restaurant dining, but also think about how we can use that a differentiator for our partners and for our restaurants on our platform as well.

[00:04:51] Ilyse: That's, that's made me curious. What is the, most popular cuisine that Resy users are, [00:05:00] are making reservations for?

[00:05:01] Hannah: I don't know the exact cuisine type, but I can tell you we typically look at the types of cities that we see a lot of dining demand around, and we use that to really guide where we have a lot of our restaurant partners. We also really care about shining a light on underrepresented food types as well.

[00:05:16] So, We did a ton of work during, COVID 19 around highlighting the importance of Chinatown and the love stories of Chinatown, knowing that there is xenophobia happening as a result of the pandemic. also in the spring of 2020, when we think back to the wake of George Floyd, looking at how we can really highlight black owners and operators and chefs in our community.

[00:05:35] And that's something that we had always done. So, we again look at what's been searched, what hasn't been searched and really how we want to perpetuate the diversity, and future of the industry in the best way possible.

[00:05:47] Damian: You mentioned the site is more than a reservations app, and you're basically building kind of editorial and curated content. that's fascinating. could you say a little bit more about that and how you target taste makers and [00:06:00] people in the know and those underrepresented kind of food types that you mentioned?

[00:06:04] Hannah: So believe it or not, we get asked all the time if restaurants have to apply to be on Resy and what the selection process is. There is no selection process. Any restaurant can pay to be on Resy. But I think the reason why we get that is because of how we are able to surface and highlight the restaurants on our platform in a way that goes beyond just the menu and when their hours of operation are.

[00:06:27] So for us, that's really thinking about the editorial stories, as mentioned, where we have, A whole entire editorial team that's dedicated to coming up with ongoing franchises, like the one who keeps the books, which is our most popular, where we see, our guests going in and figuring out of the top restaurants from the actual owners and operators, when they release inventory, how they release inventory, and how best to get seated, also longer form content as well.

[00:06:52] Beyond our edit. We're really an experiential brand as well. We'll do around 200 events by the end of [00:07:00] 2024 with restaurant partners. Why? Because we know that our guests want to be able to experience restaurants and get that behind the scenes, behind the curtain look and feel. And our restaurant partners view us as a co conspirator and collaborator.

[00:07:13] We meet with our top restaurant partners. Frequently and instead of saying, Hey, how is your performance with Rosie? How are you enjoying? We talk about what are your 5 10 year growth plans? What are you thinking about in the immediate future that's keeping you up? What story do you want to be able to tell?

[00:07:27] What opening do you have? What new product? What front of house team member do you want to celebrate and really use that to help guide and inspire how we create a lot of our content, not just for edit, but in real life experiences. Yes.

[00:07:48] Damian: I suppose that feeds into that in many ways. But, how do you strike a balance between telling those stories and your own story? It's

[00:07:57] Hannah: not about us. people care about Resy because of the [00:08:00] restaurants on our platform. And I think Resy, when it was founded in 2014, really came out with a differentiated view, which is we want to be for restaurants by people from the restaurant community. And it's not about the dollar that Resy wants to spend.

[00:08:13] It's to take or make from the restaurant partners. So we've really maintained that not only in our business offering but in our brand story. And when I look at the reservations platform that we developed last year, it's not about Resy and about how great Resy is. It's about the relationships. that we broker, broker between restaurants and the broader industry and the community.

[00:08:33] So all of the B to B and industry support that we do, on the guest side, obviously building relationships and starting new ones between guests and hopefully restaurants that they want to become a regular with and between our diners as well, celebrating why people love going out. And when we look at our editorial, we're trying to curate around insights.

[00:08:52] [00:09:00] Um, it's really about creating a platform and owning the fact that we are a network and that our restaurants are greater than us. And in doing that and having the right level of gravitas towards our partners. In turn, I think that's what has allowed Resy y to become a little bit more of a darling than maybe some of our competitors.

[00:09:20] Damian: So interesting. And in terms of, like, the results that you're seeing from this kind of, integration of these different stories and balancing between restaurants and guests, are there any new innovations that you're looking at this year to kind of keep that in motion? Yeah,

[00:09:35] Hannah: I think this year. So the discover tab and our shareable lists were really big launches for us this year. So it's really starting to think about what that ecosystem looks like and owning that as a platform for our guests in our restaurants to tell their story.

[00:09:51] I think also leaning into our relationships with our partners. So this summer, what's really exciting in a prime example of this is the [00:10:00] Unapologetic experience that we push live with our partners at Unapologetic Foods. So, for context, Unapologetic Foods is a hospitality group, Indian hospitality group, based in New York.

[00:10:11] Very, very highly sought after restaurants, such as SEMA. and in fact, the New York Times did an entire story on how you could get into SEMA. Um, it Yeah,

[00:10:21] Ilyse: jealous of them all.

[00:10:23] Hannah: Which, by the way, the Resy Notify does work for SEMA. I can't tell you how many friends have texted me to say, I got off the list at SEMA, the feature works.

[00:10:31] I'm like, thank you so much for validating. Also, going early works as well, which you'll find in the one who keeps the books. But, a prime example of this year and how we've really kind of put all these insights to practice has been when we met with Ronnie, the owner of Unapologetic Foods. I think it's really important to note that, when I was in the United States last year, he had really expressed a deep desire to try and get the word out and spread the word and love of Indian food outside of the major cities in the United States.

[00:10:58] so basically trying [00:11:00] to make Indian food as mainstream as American or as Italian and how it's pretty underrepresented. He was a crazy thought, but I just wanted to share that with you. That's what I'm really thinking about. He said, Absolutely not crazy. Let's actually sit and think about how we could create a tour, what that experience would look like, really taking a nod and inspiration from him.

[00:11:20] His dream was to go on tour. We pulled on that thread, and this past summer we have gone live in three different cities, L. A., Chicago, and D. C., at different Southeastern Asian cuisine.

[00:11:31] Ilyse: glad to

[00:11:31] Hannah: Those chefs collaborated with Ronnie and his team on a custom menu. There's content around it. And again, our job there is greater than Resy.

[00:11:39] It's greater than a reservation. It's really about. So we're here at the Anna Jack Thai restaurant, unlocking something that was important to our partners. We had an hour long wait at the Anna Jack Thai experience the first night, even some influencers who were not asked to go standing in line for over an hour, which, again, is a testament to, I think, tapping into a real trend, but that really coming from an authentic place [00:12:00] from the restaurants on our platform and treating them as collaborators.

[00:12:03] Damian: I just want to say I'm glad to hear that about Indian food because, you know, I'm originally from Britain and, Indian food is our number one cuisine. So it was always amazing to me that it was never that big in the U. S. I certainly, I think maybe New York it has been because there's a special area to the city, but in general, it's good to hear

[00:12:19] Hannah: It's not the same as Britain. it's really not. And I think with Ronnie, his staff and the front of house team, they take the time to really educate you. So if you go to SEMA, They'll give you the menu, they'll assess, what you're there for, why, but they have no problem demystifying and taking the lead on walking you through why each dish is special, why their biryani has a very special rice, which is different because of the region of India that the chef is from versus what you might see somewhere else and calling attention to things that diners might not pick up on other than like, Oh, I know I need to go here because it's a hot reservation.

[00:12:54] They really take the time to use that as an opportunity to tell a bigger story and hopefully make a bigger impact. [00:13:00] Now you've spent

[00:13:02] Ilyse: years working at American Express. That's like a tenure that's almost unheard of in today's working landscape, let alone marketing. And you've worn many hats at American Express. So we're going to talk a little bit about your experience along the way. How has this experience shaped your philosophy now as CMO?

[00:13:17] Hannah: already shaped your philosophy now. At American Express, I had come from fashion PR, which was very much here's this asset. Here's this piece. Go pitch it, send out a sample, get it back, and it felt very transactional. I started on the open brand strategy team, which was our small business branded American Express at the time, and the number one thing the team was focused on was this new report that had come out around what is on the mind of a small business owner, and the number one [00:14:00] insight was help me get more customers.

[00:14:02] And in that moment, I remember sitting in this conference room thinking, Oh, God, how is American Express going to tackle this? What do we do? And really, it was diving in and understanding they just need a day. They need a moment that's going to get people to go out and shop. So with the partnership of many agencies and teams internally, we came up the most simple idea possible, which was small business Saturday.

[00:14:25] And here we are entering its 15th year. It launched with a Facebook page and really just anything possible to help get more business to small businesses was the premise. Since that time on, and now almost 14 years later, I've always tried to think about what is that deeper, higher order insight that we have the opportunity to serve and have translated that through all the many years and months of experience in American Express and now Resy and Resy, we acquired and closed Resy in July of 2019.

[00:14:56] We're in the process of integrating the companies, making [00:15:00] sure that we're keeping Resy and figuring out how we bring the best to bear of American Express. And then a pandemic happens, which brought our industry to its knees. So again, pulling on that same tool, what's the number one thing we needed to do?

[00:15:11] How do we keep our restaurants afloat? So at the other end of this pandemic, there are restaurants that we can serve on our platform. And with that, We met the chief medical officer of American Express, figured out that we have a chief medical officer in American Express, and looked at ways that we could create COVID safe dining behaviors.

[00:15:28] And that led to sponsorship of outdoor experiences across 45 restaurants within the state. So again, just, I think, really listening and being obsessed with the customer. It has paid dividends. And

[00:15:45] Damian: up, that's a tremendous legacy. 15 years of small business Saturday, yes, must be satisfying. And then as you think about Resy now and building out that future, do you have, um, do you have Goals that you want to achieve this year five years down the line [00:16:00] And maybe I don't know if you have any thoughts on that.

[00:16:03] I'm sure you do

[00:16:03] Hannah: Yeah. So this year is actually our 10 year anniversary at Resy. and it's amazing to see you to the point of all the growth that you cited at the beginning of the taping. Like what? What we've had in that short period of time, and I think for us, it's really been because we've been that co conspirator and partner to the industry.

[00:16:22] So for us, The next sort of chapter of Resy is really going to be harnessing that even more, which is when you are a restaurant and you're trying to think of how you can grow your business, how you're trying to get your story out there. Who are you turning to? I want you to be thinking about Resy.

[00:16:37] And I don't want you to be thinking about Resy just from the sake of a table management platform or a demand network. I want you to be thinking about us as a critical partner in helping you scale, grow your demand, tell that story of a cuisine type, build an experience that only we could be able to partner with.

[00:16:55] And then from a guest side, when you have a dining occasion, I want [00:17:00] you to come to Resy, yes, of course, to think about that. But. But I also want to be the destination to help curate and really be the trendsetter that anytime you're trying to figure out what is happening in my city, a city that I'm traveling to in the broader food industry at large, what does that mean?

[00:17:16] And I think a great example of how that is sort of coming to life now is, as part of American Express's relationship with Disney, they actually approached us to think about how we could do a deeper integration for the season three premiere of the bear. Why the bear? All about food. You have people at home now saying corner when they're cooking in their kitchen, and I didn't know what that meant prior to watching that show.

[00:17:40] They came to American Express because of our ownership of Resy and what we mean to that industry. So we actually hosted a private screening for American Express card members for the first, and we're also doing episodes one and two of season three at Kusama, one of our L. A restaurants. and that's really because these brands are [00:18:00] looking to figure out how do we authentically play in food and they're thinking Resy.

[00:18:03] So how do we continue to evolve on that? What does that mean? How are we meeting our customers? The industry where it needs to be and really being seen as that sort of foothold. Wow.

[00:18:15] Damian: that's amazing. That's the bear the hulu connection. That's fantastic

[00:18:20] Ilyse: 

[00:18:20] Damian: I read Anthony Bourdain's Kitchen Confidential many years ago, but it seems like, people's interest in food and cuisine is hotter than ever. If I may say, what's your take on 

[00:18:33] Hannah: Couldn't agree more. and I think that if anything positive coming out of COVID 19 was that it taught us all and showed us all the importance of restaurants and what they mean to us.

[00:18:43] So I think coming out of COVID, the number one thing that we heard and we've seen, and even as, as personally, I felt is, Wanting to go out and congregate and to be with people that I love friends, coworkers, family and restaurants are the gathering place for that. [00:19:00] And when that was taken away, I think that was really indicative of what this culture is missing and the role that restaurants can play in that.

[00:19:07] And what you've seen is, I think, a genuine interest from the average consumer or diner who is just wanting to understand, What the importance of those restaurants are is like how they operate how we can keep them in business Get that peek behind the curtain. You're seeing shows like the bear emerge and 

[00:19:27] I think, really indicates that reservations are a form of cultural currency, which is something that we talk about, inside Terezi. So our job is to really harness that, that sort of cultural zeitgeist moment and really use that as a way to help prop up more restaurants, keep them in business, and drive more demand.

[00:19:45] Hannah: And that's it for this edition of The Current Podcast.

[00:19:47] Damian: We'll be back next week, so stay tuned.

[00:19:50] Ilyse: The Current Podcast's theme is by Love Caliber. The current team includes Kat Vesce and Sydney Cairns.

[00:19:56] Damian: And remember, I'm Damian.

[00:19:58] Ilyse: I'm Ilyse.

[00:19:59] Damian: [00:20:00] And we'll see you next time. And if you like what you hear, please subscribe and leave us a review. Also, tune in to our other podcast, The Current Report.

Colgate-Palmolive’s Brigitte King breaks down steering a global giant through digital transformation. She explores the value of connected TV and its data-driven addressability, why she thinks the marketing funnel looks more like a seesaw and how she’s thinking about riding the retail media wave.

Episode Transcript

Please note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio.

[00:00:00] Ilyse: I'm Ilyse Liffreing.

[00:00:01] And I'm Damian Fowler.

[00:00:06] Damian: And welcome to this edition of The Current Podcast. This week we're delighted to talk with Brigitte King, the Global Chief Digital Officer at Colgate

[00:00:11] Ilyse: Brigitte King, the Global Chief Digital Officer of Colgate.

[00:00:22] Damian: Of course, these days Colgate Palmolive is a thriving global company with an extensive portfolio of products and billions of customers worldwide. We

[00:00:30] Ilyse: of customers worldwide.

[00:00:33] Brigitte: global remit in a world awash with data. So Brigitte,

[00:00:36] Damian: So Brigitte, let's start. Um, what are the main challenges and opportunities for CPG brands, right now in a world where the shelf is digital and it's extremely competitive?

[00:00:46] Brigitte: first, thank you for having me. I'm thrilled to be here. And I did love that, 1800s, date you threw in there.

[00:00:52] Um, just for context, you know, we are, a company with a lot of legacy brands and a lot of longevity, and that's actually something great for [00:01:00] the company. but we've got dynamic change ahead of us. And what's fantastic is the company recognizes that. So they've embarked on a digital transformation, a data and analytics transformation, the kinds of things that we need to do to really modernize our brands in a digital first world.

[00:01:17] So we do have challenges, like you said. I think that CPG brands have been, somewhat late to the party in terms of really, Getting to the digital and data transformations that we need to do. But by no means are they shy about it. I think everybody has embarked on that change management journey. And the great thing about Colgate is we started it, you know, many years ago and certainly with a lot of speed the last four years.

[00:01:42] And the challenges are around modernizing how we reach consumers. the challenges are around making sure we care about the digital shelf as much as the physical shelf. And we sell toothpaste in cartons and tubes and it's on the shelf. But it's been pretty incredible, certainly post, the pandemic, [00:02:00] how quickly we had to master selling online.

[00:02:03] And it is a very different skill. It's a very different capability. It requires content. It requires, mastery of the algorithm. It requires working with your retailers in many new and different ways. But I'm really proud to say that, with 15 percent econ penetration of our total sales, we're getting the job done.

[00:02:20] Damian: So could you say a little bit more about the opportunity of digital transformation? What does it mean?

[00:02:25] Brigitte: Sure. For us, what it means is, is strategically making sure that we can start outperforming in digital commerce. And that means whether it's last mile delivery, or whether it's with our e retailers, or whether it's with our D to C businesses, which we have skin care brands and our skin health division, PCA Skin, L to MD, Philorga, those are all online direct to consumer businesses.

[00:02:51] So digital commerce runs the gamut, is my point. And strategically, it means we want to learn to do better. And I'll perform category and [00:03:00] market growth in that arena. The second big pillar of digital transformation is really making a step change in the way we plan, deploy, and use our digital media. So we are a business, as you said, grounded in many years of legacy, that has often been TV first and TV heavy, and that's no longer the case.

[00:03:21] Colgate Palmolive globally is weighted over 65 percent in digital media at this point in time. So we have had to do a lot to upskill. Our teams and really make sure that our digital media is working every single dollar as best as we can. I'm very proud for the teams on the ground to say that the R. Y. S.

[00:03:41] Have been very positive. And so that means we're really mastering how we do business in digital today. We want

[00:03:46] Damian: We want to ask you a little bit about that upskilling later on in the podcast. But I wanted to have a quick question, you know, I'm talking about legacy brands. And I know that, just for instance, one of the toothpaste brands, Colgate's toothpaste

[00:03:58] Brigitte: Yes.

[00:03:59] Damian: it's about the most [00:04:00] famous toothpaste brand.

[00:04:02] You get, how does better marketing or digital marketing even drive brand loyalty for say, those toothpaste customers? Aren't they already loyal?

[00:04:11] Brigitte: Not all of them, right? So we have, of course, loyal Colgate users. We also have people who switch. and we have people to grow your brand that have to actually come in to the brand and to the category.

[00:04:22] So if you think about, let's get pragmatic. You think about One of the, um, what we call need states of toothpaste is what do a lot of people want? Whiter teeth, right? So, they're looking for whitening products, whiter toothpaste that whiten. And what you see in search terms, is a lot around where the discovery journey begins.

[00:04:43] And so you also can understand how they're searching. Well then, the job of a marketer today is not to only understand those trends and those keywords, but to develop the content. that is relevant to those search, behaviors that are going on. And then guess what? You have to then deploy the content [00:05:00] on all the right channels and in the right touch points to be present when the consumer is searching for information and researching about whitening, but then more importantly, how do you get into their consideration set, right?

[00:05:12] Into the mental availability of, I'm interested, oh Colgate has something, let me go a little deeper here. And then the moment of truth online, right? Which is the moment of conversion. And I don't mind if they convert, and none of us do, right? On a physical shelf or a digital shelf. The point is to get their attention and to get into the consideration set.

[00:05:33] to prove that you have great ratings and reviews, great product benefits that they're seeing on the PDP product detail pages, and you will move them to the point of conversion, be it physical or virtual.

[00:05:44] Damian: I like that.

[00:05:46] Brigitte: Yeah. Now, as

[00:05:47] Ilyse: know, retail media is absolutely exploding and along with that retail data. How is retail data and the opportunity of RMNs helping you with more precise targeting of potential customers? So this

[00:05:59] Brigitte: [00:06:00] So this is, you know, the, what I call the topic du jour, right? Retail media, networks and what's happening with the explosion of retail media. I'm very, pleased to say we're actually ahead of this curve. we are investing in retail media.

[00:06:11] We are experimenting, with retail partners and it's an incredibly dynamic area. But you know, what's fascinating about it is it gives you closed loops. Sales, right? You can really go from attention to consideration to discovery, and you can basically close the loop and see, did what you do actually impact the bottom line or that final moment of truth?

[00:06:34] So that's exciting. But I do want to say that even with the explosion of retail media, we are brand building for the long term, which means we have to think about how retail media works and plays in the larger holistic media planning process. So you really need to think about how you're growing your brand long term and not just on one person's retail media network.

[00:06:56] Damian: That's interesting.

[00:06:57] Ilyse: To what extent would you say it's like a [00:07:00] game changer for CPTs? I think it

[00:07:02] Brigitte: I think it is. I think that it's got all this buzz for a reason, right? And I think it's because we can start to see closed loop sales attribution in ways that are much more difficult to track elsewhere. and you can really partner with retailers who are getting more and more sophisticated about their data sets and how they partner with brands and manufacturers to build businesses.

[00:07:25] So in many ways, it can absolutely be a win win situation. but you also have to think about your brand long term and make sure you're not only looking to invest in one place or with one retailer. So we're learning a lot. We've got great partnerships with our retailers. They're leaning in. We're leaning in.

[00:07:42] So it's an exciting time.

[00:07:44] Ilyse: Is it helping to drive more, say, direct to consumer campaigns? And does Colgate Palmolive have any of those coming up or any successful ones under their belts as it is?

[00:07:56] Brigitte: I think we've definitely, we're still in that experimenting stage. We're definitely [00:08:00] learning. but yeah, we have a strategic eye towards how we're going to do this and how we're going to make sure that we get to really drive traffic to our brands. and make sure that also our data gets smarter and more enriched as we go.

[00:08:12] The whole point is to basically. Do for the consumer, meet their needs and meet them where they are and do what they need. And as you partner with your retailers, if you're both with that mindset, you generally make smarter decisions with your data. You mentioned,

[00:08:25] Damian: you mentioned, you know, meeting the consumer where they are and also about the different nuances of brand building across all the different touch points. 

[00:08:34] I know that e commerce is growing. There's a lot of talk about the importance of, commerce advertising, e commerce strategy, and how that engages the consumer. But that also impacts how creative rolls out in the end stage. is that something that's part of your consideration under your remit as a, as somebody who's transforming digital marketing for Colgate.

[00:09:14] Brigitte: And the most fascinating thing about content today is it's truly being what I call atomized. You just need more of it faster all the time. You need to create it with velocity. and I always talk about the three V's volume, velocity and variety of content. You need that. So our team equally is trying to make sure we have the technology underpinnings and the infrastructure, to get content deployed at scale.

[00:09:39] So that means using dams, digital asset management systems really well across our global organization. And that means, 200 countries and territories. It's no small project. And then really working on making sure it's content that is good. So first it's having it and deploying it correctly.

[00:09:59] Then it's [00:10:00] making sure it's good content and good creative. So partners of ours that are really helping us score creative with AI and ML. So we really do know that it's tagged correctly, but that it's actually scored to win, and it's AB tested.

[00:10:14] So all of those things are creating a sophistication now in our creative and content wheelhouse that allow us to get where we want to go. What you said, which sounds so easy. Content in the right place at the right time. Yeah,

[00:10:25] Damian: how are you adapting your approaches across all these channels that you're talking about across, including the physical store?

[00:10:33] Brigitte: So I think it's less about adapting. I think what we're doing is we're retrenching. We are making sure that we understand what is driving these categories. for consumers to begin with. So that means really good consumer decision journeys, studying those, making sure we have a very thorough grasp of the insights and the people centricity around those insights about why people are coming in, why people [00:11:00] are leaving, what they're looking for when they're there.

[00:11:02] So if you think about it, you're retrenching into what I call good old fashioned consumer insights. And you're, but you're doing it in a new, way. You're doing quant data, qual data, you're doing digital data, you're doing social sentiment, you're getting an understanding of what's really happening.

[00:11:17] And then you're looking to understand what your brand objectives are, or you're responsible for basically strategizing around those to meet the needs of the business. And then you plan your multi touchpoint channel strategy. So there's a lot of work. Diagnostic work that goes on before you ever get into which channel do you want to be on?

[00:11:39] what are you trying to get done? it has to be thoughtful because as you know, there's never enough money to go around. and we need to make sure that every dollar we spend to build our brands now to meet both short term goals and long term goals is put in the right place with thoroughness and analytical skills and capabilities and insights.

[00:12:00] Ilyse: Now, of ecommerce and retail data, we hear a lot of talk about the collapse of the marketing funnel, that merging, you know, of brand awareness and performance.

[00:12:13] Do you have any good metaphors or perhaps models for the way marketing works or should work today? What was the good one that we've heard before, Damian?

[00:12:23] Damian: infinity

[00:12:24] Brigitte: Yes, the loop. I was going to talk about the loop and not the

[00:12:28] Damian: Oh, I don't want to, you know, pre think. You say what comes to mind, what works for

[00:12:33] Ilyse: I mean, we've heard, yeah, infinity loop or like black hole even.

[00:12:39] Brigitte: So look, I, was trained as a classic brand marketer, and I've worked on digital, for most of the second half of my career, shall I say? So I'm very conscious of, there is a lot to say about the funnel and that it is true, right? The funnel exists for a reason. and it was.

[00:12:57] Classified that way because [00:13:00] you have to start from a place of awareness to get to consideration of your brand, to get to purchase, and then to ideally get to loyalty, right? We call that ACPL at Colgate. But I think what's really unique now is you can't just care about awareness. You have to care about getting attention.

[00:13:16] And you can't just care about being considered. You have to be in the consideration set. with a lot of different things that affect it now than before. Before it was manufacture a message out. Now, people are reading ratings and reviews. So, as I said earlier on whitening, if they don't read positive ratings and reviews on whitening, I'm going to fall out of the consideration set.

[00:13:39] And purchase, used to be fundamentally, the zero moment of truth was at the physical shelf in the store. That's no longer just the case. So the moment of truth can happen anywhere, and on any platform. And, right, it's not just e comm. It's also checking out on, TikTok, and being able to [00:14:00] purchase on social channels.

[00:14:02] And that has also changed the mix because a brand now has to exponentially be better and present in all of those places. 

[00:14:09] but you raised a really good question around how do you think about brand and performance. And I think that they're very different and we, I've seen a lot of studies and I've read a lot about People talking about let's go back to just the basics of brand marketing.

[00:14:24] and then there's a lot of people who are just diehards on performance marketing is where it's at, right? It's data driven, it's got KPIs, you can see things working in real time. I think you need a blend of both. I think that what you really have to be doing today, whether you're driving a digital transformation, marketing or a business transformation in general, you need to be balancing all the time.

[00:14:46] And for me, it is striking the balance, I think about a seesaw. Really between brand on one side, performance, brand marketing on one side, performance marketing on the other, and instead of one tipping too far, [00:15:00] balancing the two. I think that's how you get to both short and long term brand building.

[00:15:04] Damian: perfect. I love that. That's a new one.

[00:15:06] Ilyse: Yeah, that's a good one. That's

[00:15:06] Brigitte: right, it's not a loop, it's a seesaw.

[00:15:10] Ilyse: now, speaking of like the marketing mix, to what extent are digital channels like connected TV and, of course, ad tiers on streaming platforms important to that marketing mix? I know even with like retail now and retail media, it's, as far as, identity and everything, retail and CTV are kind of merging together as well.

[00:15:36] as channels that are almost uniquely suited for each other, in a sense, but curious what you have to say about that. Look,

[00:15:44] Brigitte: I think media has changed so much and everyone is trying to keep up and make sure that we understand what I call where the eyeballs are going. And I think that CTV specifically is, as you know, um, Growing exponentially. A lot of investment going in that [00:16:00] area. And we are as well experimenting there, and we have a lot of brands who have invested in connected TV because it's more data driven.

[00:16:09] It's addressable, it's targeted, and we can see how it performs. And generally, again, we measure our ROIs against all of our touch points and we have found it is very performant. So we will continue to invest there. It's bringing new people into our brands, Hills specifically, pet food for Colgate. We do a lot of CTV and it's, performing really well for them.

[00:16:33] So we're really learning how to do what I would call data driven decision making, data driven targeting. and get the measurement that proves that cycles really working for us, and it's been terrific. I mean, Colgate as one of the classic CPGs. That's hundreds of years old. actually recently posted, 9.

[00:16:52] 8 percent organic sales growth. So we really are driving the base business with a lot of these new strategies.

[00:16:58] Damian: And from your point of view, [00:17:00] I'm assuming that measurement portion is better. Is just the accuracy of the measurement is getting better. The data signals are getting better. Yes, absolutely. But it's also giving

[00:17:11] Brigitte: everyone a whole lot more data to have to handle, hygienate, stitch together and master. And that's the complexity in a lot of this as well. And these transformations always have what I call a lot of data exhaust, a lot of data spinoff, and you have to be equipped in your organization to start mastering and managing that kind of data.

[00:17:33] Ilyse: What kind of data? Like, where does it go? it sounds like trash you just like have to take out. 

[00:17:42] Brigitte: So, we are, definitely looking to make sure that we put our data in a data cloud. we are looking at consumer data platforms, CDPs, because we do understand that's a place where we can stitch data together to give us a better view of the consumer.

[00:17:56] We're strategizing around, unknown and [00:18:00] known data sets. first party, second party, third party data. So all of those things are coming together, strategically for us to be able to drive data driven marketing.

[00:18:14] Damian: upskilling your employees. And this comes at a time when there's a ton of emphasis on AI, you know, as a friend or a foe. So, why is that important to you to place that emphasis on the people who work, in the company? Why is digital upskilling such an important, job, I guess, for you?

[00:18:33] Brigitte: So it's the beginning of the whole conversation. there is a need to make sure that all of our employees around the world have access to continuous improvement and upskilling and learning. And so as we drove a digital transformation, we needed to bring everybody along with the journey. But nobody can come along if they don't understand some of the basics and the principles, not just the why of what we're doing, but the what it means.

[00:18:58] So Colgate Palmolive [00:19:00] invested a lot of time and money into upscaling its own employees. And then we did, fun stuff. We badged people who took X amount of courses. we allowed them to post that on LinkedIn, because they should be proud of upscaling themselves. And it's really good for their careers and their own self development.

[00:19:17] But it's also a dynamic for creating change, right? Because as you learn more, you can actually make different decisions Transcribed Act differently. Ask the right questions. Push your teams to make sure we are competing and marketing in a digital age effectively for our brands. So upskilling was everything for us.

[00:19:35] and it's really also about Colgate's belief that we should invest back in our employees. this is about raising all boats. So as I also drove a digital transformation, I recruited a lot of talent into Colgate Palmolive, but equally important to all of us was upskilling the teams that we had.

[00:19:52] It's reassuring to hear at a time

[00:19:54] Damian: a time when, you know, there's all this chat about AI, but it's nice to hear.

[00:19:57] Damian: And [00:20:00] that's it for this edition of The Current Podcast. We'll be back next week, so stay tuned.

[00:20:04] Ilyse: The Current Podcast's theme is by Love Caliber. The current team includes Cat Fessy and Sydney Cairns.

[00:20:11] Damian:  And remember, I'm Damian.

[00:20:13] Ilyse: I'm Ilyse.

[00:20:14] Damian: And we'll see you next time. And if you like what you hear, please subscribe and leave us a review. Also, tune in to our other podcast, The Current Report.

Josef Najm, director of programmatic and partnerships at Thomson Reuters, and Mibbie Plouvier, head of global programmatic strategy at SAS, join The Current Podcast to describe how their partnership has evolved and how trust plays an important part in that evolution. 

Episode Transcript

Please note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio.

[00:00:00] Ilyse: I'm Ilyse Liffreing, and welcome to this edition of The Current Podcast. This week, we're excited to be joined by two guests. Joseph Najim, Director of Programmatic and Partnerships at Reuters, And Mivi Plouvier, Head of Programmatic at software company SAS.

[00:00:17] Ilyse: Together we'll explore the publisher and advertiser dynamic at a time when some advertisers remain cautious about appearing alongside certain types of news. The business model for news is under pressure and publishers are looking for better ways to monetize their journalism with effective ads. We'll dive into why things may be changing for the better.

[00:00:36] Recent research indicates that it's safer for brands to advertise next to quality journalism, regardless of the news topic. Reuters, in 1851 and owned by Thomson Reuters, is one of the world's largest publishers, with journalists in over 200 locations writing in 16 different languages. SAS sits at the intersection of data [00:01:00] and AI.

[00:01:01] Delivering analytical insights to brands. We kick off things with Joseph and Miby describing how they first met and how their partnership has evolved since then.

[00:01:11] Ilyse: It's so great to have you here today. First off, how did you first meet and how would you describe how your partnership has evolved? 

[00:01:20] Joseph: Great. Thank you so much for having us. It's a pleasure to be here. maybe and I met about five years ago when I joined Reuters coming from the buy side, I was just leaving a stint at Diageo and, coming in as the programmatic sales specialist at the time, maybe was working in Paris and she was, I believe, the global programmatic lead and everyone was just like, “Hey, programmatic guy, this is a programmatic person.”

[00:01:41] I think you should connect with them. And at the time, we were doing some business with SAS, or maybe a little bit. And hearing that she was from Paris. and also knowing that I had worked at L'Oreal. I wanted to connect with her from like a French connection perspective and also knowing that she was American.

[00:01:55] So I shot her an email reaching out and asking her some questions like how things were going. 

[00:02:00] Mibbie: It was a fun connection. because I was new to Paris. And Joseph reached out and was telling me all these fun, French antidotes of how Parisians and French people are more like coconuts, and Americans are more like peaches. And it was a great analogy to start the intro, but we've had a great relationship

[00:02:17] Joseph has been resilient and calling on our business and the more in trust we built up, the greater the partnership has become and we've been able to do some really great things together. 

[00:02:27] Ilyse: guess it is like a pretty small world programmatic, 

[00:02:33] Ilyse: so it's no secret that the publishing industry is under quite a lot of pressure along with the eventual death of cookies. One issue publishers continue to come across are brands avoiding advertising on news for concerns around brand safety.

[00:02:49] Now, these concerns have been challenged as of a May study from Stagwell that found that even ads next to hot button topics performed as effectively as those appearing next to [00:03:00] news, like sports and entertainment. Can you give us some context around what you're seeing on this topic? 

[00:03:07] Joseph: Yes, this is a very important topic, and being at Reuters now for five years, I've had the opportunity to see a lot of different brand briefs and questions that come in around

[00:03:17] how can we partner together? And in 2020, this kind of all came to a head when COVID and the pandemic took place. So what we found was, a lot of advertisers turn to the solutions that they have around. Advertising, ad tech platform, blocking tools like keyword lists, pre bid filters, monitoring tags, blocking tags, blocking words like COVID, China, Wuhan.

[00:03:38] And then it just precipitated after that. and almost The spiral effect because the news cycle and

[00:03:42] the realities of that was happening continued. So, just in the year of 2020, so much happened. whether it was George Floyd's murder, the beginning of the Black Lives Matter. movement. the, the election, as well. A lot of people forget the election took place there, too. And now, four years later, history is continuing in this really [00:04:00] real time. Just to kind of put it into a global perspective, two thirds of the world's democratic populations are going to the polls. this year, not just the U S and a lot of people just think it's the U S, but really important countries like Taiwan, for example. and we're covering that. and we're also covering two global world conflicts. Israel and Gaza, as well as Russia and Ukraine.

[00:04:18] when we're doing all this, it costs a lot of money and it's important to find brand partners that are willing, to support trusted journalism and at the same time understand that when they're partnering with news publishers, that audience that they're reaching is a really important audience, It's an attentive audience, an audience that's willing to engage.

[00:04:37] I always like to think back, like, when the pandemic happened, where did we all turn? We turned to the news. And I'm really appreciative of a lot of these studies that are coming out with Stagwell, for example, but even going back to 2020, released this Trust HALO report, 84 percent of consumers had a positive or neutral impact when they saw an ad adjacent to a trusted source. And I fast forward to now and folks are talking about Gen z audience and trying to reach [00:05:00] that audience. Gen Z cares about the facts. They care about trust. So, finding partnership with SAS and being able to present this audience and showing that you can have ad adjacency next to the hard news and reach that audience has been leading to successful business outcomes for both of us.

[00:05:14] And It's really been great partnering with Mibbie on those activations.

[00:05:18] Mibbie: and then from our perspective, I'd say I think it's easy to find comfort in blocking certain words. but. What we like to do is partner with trusted news sources and award winning news sources because we know that no matter what news they're reporting upon, our brand is going to be safe around it. And we know that we're

[00:05:35] going to be okay, no matter what the news is. And I think with the current news cycle and how constant it is, you could almost just go down a rabbit hole of blocking everything. So from our perspective, it was let's partner with key publishers, that we can trust and then we don't have to worry as much about trying to continue to block things or worry about. Being somewhere we don't want to be. 

[00:05:55] Ilyse: and on that point though, even like the bad news,

[00:05:59] I don't think it, [00:06:00] it doesn't hurt your brand as research has shown. and brands are still very fearful about that. Was that your original, like, hesitancy in advertising or? It Okay. 

[00:06:12] Mibbie: it's, we take the security and knowing how, brands how we're going to be around the right kind of content and Reuters reports on the news in a very fair way. So for us, even if it's bad news, we're okay with being there.

[00:06:26] it took a while to get there internally, but that was several years ago and I think it was around COVID when everybody was a little fearful of the news, but we're very confident with the partners we have. and for us, it was also how can we make these things happen programmatically. Because

[00:06:43] we can buy things a lot easier. and more smoothly if it's through our platforms. So that was, Reuters was very good about helping us out in that sense too. Yeah, 

[00:06:51] Joseph: I think, it goes back to the consultative approach.

[00:06:53] when I first presented to SAS and to maybe, in team. It was always with the thinking of, okay, [00:07:00] culture. Just like Reuters. We have a history. They have a history of innovation too. And at the end of the day, as maybe said, the fairness of how we go to report that unbiased nature, it really creates, and fosters an environment for 

[00:07:12] Trust with the audience, trust with the content. So when they have a trusted message, that they're really trying to deliver to that audience. we just knew that it was going to be a perfect synergy between the two. so I really never had. concerns, but I will say, and this is the importance of kind of stepping in and having that partnership with that publisher partner, that news publisher partner.

[00:07:30] If the situation gets a little bit out of control, from a hard news perspective, it's important for the news publisher to step in and say, hey, maybe we don't run this campaign right now, but we will come back and we'll make sure that the creative message is appropriate to what's taking place, but also at the same time, hey, we're going to, we're going to protect your brand.

[00:07:47] And I think in some cases, we're you know, it happened, for example, with Applebee's, running against the CNN, ad when, I think it was Russia and ukraine, combat was starting to happen.

[00:07:57] And, what came from it was some rhetoric [00:08:00] around, you know, we don't want to be around that content. and why, could that have been shut off? And I don't know the full schema behind it, but I really do think it wasn't the intention for CNN to run an Applebee's ads there.

[00:08:11] But that ad and went to supporting journalism and supporting that, that moment in time that if people a lot of people were looking at, 

[00:08:16] And my hope is, like, a brand like Apple Lee's, we'll find a way to come back to running on news again and not say, Hey, we're gonna shut it down and continue not running there. 

[00:08:25] Ilyse: saying, hey, we're to shut it down and continue. Yeah, I do think 

[00:08:47] Joseph: Yeah, so I do think there's a little bit of foundation of a fear strategy here, and I think that strategy unfortunately comes from, the fear of the screenshot,

[00:08:57] for example, and what that might lead to. [00:09:00] and, when it comes to exclusion lists, I think one of the funniest things I recently heard was a certain agency had an exclusion list Or their exclusion list, which kind of speaks to a problem in itself, where if you're applying words like people's beliefs, religions, communities, whole countries, et cetera, you really run into a situation where Is that appropriate?

[00:09:21] For your media campaigns, and your paid campaigns? to me, understanding that brand, and like doing my research when I go to pitch, it's recognizing what is in your keywords doesn't really reflect what your brand is trying to promote from a communication style as well. but I think maybe he has some specifics if you want to share from your side.

[00:09:38] we've been chatting about this a little bit, but they're pretty good. They're relevant to the French culture as well.

[00:09:43] Mibbie: well. Yeah, I think it's, lose a lot of context when you block keywords. And at some point, when Notre Dame. you know, was on fire and burning. A lot of people were blocking Paris.

[00:09:54] They were blocking fire. and now if you don't go back and revisit those lists and you continue to just have.

[00:09:59] these long [00:10:00] lists of blocks, you're missing out on Olympics coverage. With the Olympic torch, with the flame, with even the Paris coverage. So there's a lot that if it's not completely maintained, I think it's a hard kind of road to continue to go down because you, there's a never ending way to go if you keep blocking and blocking.

[00:10:17] So I think that's where you should go more, the curvation route. And that's the route we've gone is to. Curate our sites, curate who we're working with, and so then it's not as fearful, and you don't get that email to your CEO, which had happened, and it comes down to you, if you're at the screenshot, and then you have to say, that's a good point.

[00:10:33] Why are we here? Why are we running there?

[00:10:34] so it, sometimes it says hard lessons that make you rethink how you're blocking things. and the approach you're going to have

[00:10:41] Joseph: want to bring up AI here because, in a sense, I feel like potentially it could help eventually with, something like keywords. Maybe with marketers, maybe it's a chance to like, actually use it to run through keywords really fast and see if it's, actually gonna [00:11:00] actually with terms that aren't like several years outdated or something like that.

[00:11:05] Ilyse: what do you think? 

[00:11:07] Mibbie: I think it's only going to help our business and help speed the process to your point of going through those massive lists and staying active with what's constantly changing like the news. So I only think it's going to benefit us, but I think AI in general across the programmatic landscape is going to be a benefit instead of more of a hindrance that some people might think it might be.

[00:11:29] Joseph: Yeah, a AI is unique because there's generative AI and then there's AI. And I think in the programmatic space, we've been playing with AI a lot. like Machine learning, algorithms, the ability to, target the person, right place, right time, right message,

[00:11:41] that's all AI. And I think the tools that publishers are now getting, that maybe they weren't always accustomed to having, or the ease of being able to, check things, or recategorize things or work with their product leads to say, Hey, what is happening here in the bid stream? That's going to come out more to make a cleaner path, [00:12:00] and make sure that the buy side is really saying, Okay, let's triage it, maybe.

[00:12:03] Let's say, okay, if this is Reuters, and a trusted brand, and good to go. But okay, next word that pops up, Okay, maybe it's related to this, but because Reuters, still okay. I don't think those solutions exist.

[00:12:14] They're A little bit more potential blankets, but with AI you have to understand the risks too. And I think in a gen AI world, working at a news publisher, it's also really important to understand like I sit on the commercial side.

[00:12:25] So my uses of AI and generative AI are going to, be different than the editorial team.

[00:12:30] And it's important to make sure this is anyone that's on the new side like what is your AI and gen AI policies because you don't want there to be conflict with your editorial team and commercial team. But you do want to promote. innovation at the same time. 

[00:12:43] Ilyse: now I want to talk a little bit about the campaign that you actually ran, and that you pushed through all that hesitancy for, and then maybe if you could share some of the results you saw from that. 

[00:12:56] Mibbie: so we've been doing a lot of great testing with Reuters, [00:13:00] so the baseball campaign was a great example because we owned all their coverage of the World Series, which was great for us as a brand to know that. We're there all the way through the end, and it was a good series. But then we've also been doing some testing with Reuters with linked in. So they've been contextually making videos for us around a I specifically in our ads are surrounding that, and we've seen, massive increase in our click through rate, exceeding benchmarks, great view through completion. So it's partnering, in very smart ways And being able to test together that I think we've seen. a lot of great success. and we're also running on their YouTube. channel. So another great way to keep our ads in a brand safe environment on Reuters YouTube instead of all over the place how YouTube can be. So that was a new strategy that we tested together as well.

[00:13:45] And we also had audio with Alexa and Google Home. So, when you ask Google Home what the news is for the day. our ad would run before that. And that was a great, Great way of just getting our brand out there and getting some more awareness of who we are. And The great point of that too is [00:14:00] we were able to buy that programmatically. So a lot of these things that necessarily some publishers wouldn't let us buy programmatically. we were able to run with Reuters programmatically, so that made things a lot more smoother.

[00:14:10] Joseph: Because of Miby's ad tech stack, we have the ability to front the costs via the impression delivery and the cost per day for an activation. And then, as a publisher, behind The scenes, you just have to work. through your finance team to how you're going to fund those projects and support the teams. But The LinkedIn Wire program. It's a really great success story of how you can combine really great content from a news publisher, and this is all editorial content. So nothing was created bespoke It was just around the same coverage that our editorial teams would be doing for AI. The message that maybe was trying to deliver and SAS team was trying to deliver plus the LinkedIn data that was tied to it as well And All of those things, and I think this also comes into Challenging your partner is It came to a pretty high CPM and costs, but It's the old adage, of kind of, what you get what you pay for And I think the return and what they [00:15:00] saw in the engagement And how it compared was really great. And What I also like about being at a publisher for five years but also having this ad tech background is the way I approach a partner like sass is, hey, we're omni channel. Like you think omni channel and, infinite places, but you could work with one partner in an omni channel approach, and this is very much that and some. So, it's been really great partnering with Vivian sass to really test these different things and be innovative. It's fun. 

[00:15:24] Ilyse: finally, to both of you, are you optimistic that news publishers are on the right track to fund, oh, Are you optimistic that news publishers are on the right track to fund journalism at this moment?

[00:15:42] Joseph: There's a lot That's being done in the right way in the smart way. But it's also

[00:15:47] important to, take stock of all the different revenue streams. So, subscriptions is very big. Diversification for news publishers. is very big gamification, right? All these different platforms. whether it be integrating [00:16:00] new, Sports solutions. or Content that's, again, related to lifestyle. But not every news publisher is built And runs their business in the same way. So it's important to recognize even the local hub news publisher who's covering the beat of something that's taking place. They're at risk to their risk of funding. And there's like this slippery slope where when it hits them, those impacts might not be felt when I'm living in New York City or in

[00:16:26] other places. But those local communities, So, I think the onus is on this industry of how we can get back out there. And There are definitely ad tech companies are trying to do that and funnel those dollars there. And You see even the promotion of like new technologies with that. Trade Desk and Adfuntus Media, which hopefully will drive those revenues to those smaller news publishers.

[00:16:48] But, you know, at the same time, we're challenged. Whether it's ads, coming from brands, but then even certain algorithm changes that are impacting business lines that had seven figure revenue streams. You're seeing it across [00:17:00] the board. So, I think the stress is real. I think The stress is real for a lot of people. But it's important that, you know, we keep innovating and finding brand partners like SAS to come to the table to speak about how we can is good and you can find opportunity in hitting that audience and driving ROI and driving performance.

[00:17:17] That will only help. and hopefully it trickles down to the small guys too. 

[00:17:23] Ilyse: Joseph, what would you tell marketers who say it's not a brand issue? what would you tell marketers who say it's not a brand safety issue, but more that their audience just isn't there?

[00:17:40] That's a lot of, young readers, Gen Z ears are finding their news on TikTok and only TikTok. what would you say to them? I know it like can lion, for instance, a few months ago, McDonald's CMO. for instance, said that, 

[00:17:56] get our audience there and we'll bring [00:18:00] back the money. We'll put the money there. 

[00:18:03] Joseph: No, it's a great question, and I don't think they're wrong. I do think, however, the communication is not there, and, the insight that the Gen Z audience, whether it be Gen Z adults or younger Gen Z, are getting their information. from TikTok is very accurate. we've done that same report, at the Reuters Institute, which partners with Oxford, released that same study last year, and the new results are going to come out soon, to see how those channels are resonating with younger audiences.

[00:18:27] But, I asked a simple question, right? Like when the pandemic happened, where did people go? They went to news sites. They went to understand and get facts and information to inform the decisions that they were making, whether it be a mom who's worried about her children and going to school or the professional and the markets and how it's being affected.

[00:18:45] Now, Gen Z, just because they go to TikTok first doesn't mean they stop there. I'm sure they have their trusted sources. And I think the challenge is Hey, brands.

[00:18:53] You're only giving me 20 minutes to pitch, and it's very transactional right now when it comes to display ads [00:19:00] and video ads, audio ads, whatever it might be. Where's the opportunity to be consultative? Give us that platform. Let us have that. discourse. because Right now, the discourse that comes up is, we're just like, a no news. I don't think that's the case. If you ask any brand like, no, we support news. So how do we get them from saying, yes, we support news, but to, yes, we support news

[00:19:19] and the end is that should be filled in by us. How are we going to do something that's a little bit more innovative more creative to get them back into supporting that platform, But we all have the data to show those audiences are there, do we have the platform, however, to share that insight with them? That's something that needs to be rebuilt a little bit. And I think it's coming. there, though. And I think the events that happened in Cannes and the different studies that came out and rolled out are only going to help. And I really do appreciate that, that feedback. But, sitting as a challenger in that room, it's important to challenge.

[00:19:51] Joseph: It's very easy to say no, someone, no to someone who's like a friend. And getting that kind of feedback and going back and forth, that's good. That's where the discourse started.

[00:19:59] Ilyse: [00:20:00] Now, when it comes to advertising on news, what is the approach when it comes to a B2B company like SAS versus B2C or even D2C? How is it different? 

[00:20:12] Mibbie: I think we just have to look at what we're trying to advertise and get our, awareness out there about, and we're selling a very high end software and for us, that relationship of. premiumness with publishers. and having that there. We're not chasing cheap clicks because we have a very long sales cycle. So when it comes to B2C, that somebody's going to see those shoes and go buy them, it's very different than making a long term decision to purchase the software.

[00:20:38] So for us, we want to have that consistency with the brands and longevity more so than being kind of all over the place searching those cheap clicks or cheap impressions.

[00:20:47] so We pay a little more just to to get that consistency, consistency to get that frequency, but also, we have to think about sales cycles. And So ours is very long, nine months to a year. So long enough to have a baby. so we really have to have that consistency [00:21:00] right of being in the same place and having that consistent message.

[00:21:04] Ilyse: And that's it for this edition of The Current Podcast.

[00:21:06] Damian: We'll be back next week, so stay tuned.

[00:21:09] Ilyse: The Current Podcast's theme is by Love Caliber. The current team includes Kat Vesce and Sydney Cairns.

[00:21:16] Damian: And remember, I'm Damian.

[00:21:18] Ilyse: I'm Ilyse.

[00:21:19] Damian: And we'll see you next time. And if you like what you hear, please subscribe and leave us a review. Also, tune in to our other podcast, The Current Report.

United recently launched Kinective Media, the airline industry’s first media network. Its first-party data could change the future of people’s travel experiences. 

Episode Transcript

Please note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio.

[00:00:00] Damian: I'm Damian Fowler and welcome to this edition of the current podcast this week we're delighted to talk with Mike Petrella, the managing director of partnerships at United airlines. In June, the airline launched a new initiative named connective media, which is the airline industry's first media network.

[00:00:17] The network will use data from its customer profiles to create a personalized and immersive travel journey. This launch comes at a time when retail media networks have become one of the hottest topics in ad tech, allowing brand marketers to target consumers using retailers first party data.

[00:00:35] We start by asking Mike about why United wanted to move in this direction. 

[00:00:40] Damian: United's the first travel focused company to develop its own media network called Connective Media by United Airlines, and how is this a boon for the company and its flyers?

[00:00:50] Mike: of course, so we consider ourselves a commerce media network, and we distinguish ourselves as a commerce media network. Given retail media, networks are typically point of [00:01:00] purchase, transaction based. The Commerce Media Network embraces the emotion, the journey, the feelings of all parts of the funnel.

[00:01:08] So when you think about our users at time of planning, time of travel,

[00:01:13] Damian: and signals

[00:01:14] Mike: time of destination, even when they're not thinking about travel, we have 108 million profiles. And the beauty of our data is it's incredibly accurate. You have to be Damien to get on a plane. Your name has to be what it is, your address has to be correct, your phone number, and all the other information.

[00:01:33] So the breadth of that information, coupled with the accuracy of it, gives us insights and signals that allow us to create these robust profiles of the user. And it's the user at all points. And the commerce nature of this isn't just a point of sale. We are not microtransactions on a consistent, on a constant basis.

[00:01:54] Rather, we think about The interaction of the user at the time of [00:02:00] planning, top funnel. At the time of trip, or even time of purchase in an ancillary mindset. Purchase path typically generates a significant amount of revenue. Be it airline tickets, upgrades, any purchase path.

[00:02:11] Regardless of whether it is airline ticket or if you're purchasing a ticket to an event, parking, whatever the case is. So for us, it's the ability to take that journey. To be able to identify when the right time to send the right message to the right user is. And that message could be an advertisement, it could be content, it could be nothing because it's not the right time.

[00:02:35] But in each of these cases, you can make a use case for any and every brand based on the scale and depth of our data.

[00:02:42] Damian: of our data. Fascinating. And you mentioned that long purchase journey, which is, sometimes it can be a long purchase journey, right? For air travel, or it could be short, but you do have a lot of scope within that context.

[00:02:54] Mike: It is. I mean, very few people spontaneously book tickets to destinations, right?

[00:02:59] And when [00:03:00] you're in that mindset, you're in a planning mindset, not only of the journey, but think about the insights and intelligence we can extract from the signals we receive to say, Well, this person happens to frequent a specific hotel chain, a car rental chain, a ride share company, when they land, they frequent a food delivery service.

[00:03:21] Endemic, but then you think the non endemic piece. And this is the beauty of what we do. The lines of endemic and non endemic are completely blurred. To me at least. Because I think about, when you get on a plane, you may be traveling home to return to normality. Which takes you to food shopping, which takes you to the pharmacy, which takes you to the laundromat.

[00:03:39] But my point is, I think the idea of always coupling a travel endemic brand or journey with the traveler is only a piece of it. be it on the road or at home.

[00:03:50] I may go see a music event. I may go purchase music. I might play music. I may eat pizza. I will eat pizza just to be clear. But my point is, my behaviors [00:04:00] There are some that are going to be unique based on my journey, and others that are going to overlap with when I'm traveling for leisure, when I'm home.

[00:04:08] And so, I love the fact that just, we can essentially meet the interests of the customer, which is the centric piece of this, and provide value to our partners as well.

[00:04:21] Damian: It's a very clear example of how non endemic works in a retail media network, I think, because, you know, when you think about other retail media networks, often think about the retailer and what it sells, but, you know, with United, it's a different story.

[00:04:34] Mike: Yeah, it's the breath of commerce, and that's what I enjoyed. That was like when I came here, it was eye opening. I had an idea, right? But just to see what we can do and really the validation of just how strong our data is and how valuable it is from a customer standpoint. When I say valuable to the customer, it is to spoon feed customers based on their interests.

[00:04:57] Cafeteria style doesn't work. There are too many choices. [00:05:00] So if you're in a planning phase and we can bring about certain things that are of, normality to you, booking a restaurant, booking a golf reservation, simply as getting my ride share, it makes the journey easier. It makes it feel like it's Damien Fowler's journey, not just a customer who purchased a seat in one of our planes.

[00:05:20] Damian: Yeah, I love that. And I just want to take that point a little bit further. Can you give some more examples of how, you work with brands, whether endemic or, when I say endemic, that would be travel related, right? Or not. and where that media might appear.

[00:05:34] Mike: Sure. So today we are, our media network extends from our dot com, our in app, we have digital signage within the airports, be it in our clubs and lounges, gate information displays, on our planes we have in flight entertainment, or we call IFE, or personal device entertainment on your phone, and so as part of United Next, we made an investment to purchase north of [00:06:00] 800 planes.

[00:06:01] And within each of those planes, they will be outfitted with the new IFE system. It's meant to be more of an OTT experience versus the current experience, which quite frankly is, it's legacy, it's the 1950s. It's a small screen with limited choices and it's not what we're used to. we envision this opportunity to have a very personalized experience in which you will have your interests displayed on that screen and every person's screen will be different.

[00:06:28] Based on that individual. And so, for us, we will be retrofitting our current fleet, with the exception of a couple planes that will be retired over time. And so, over time, we will have screens in all planes on a, personalized basis. And so, for us too, it's, you extend past that, you have email and such.

[00:06:47] It's a true omni channel offering, but most importantly, it's the engagement. We have an average of three and a half hour flight time. And so, when you're at home You can get up, use the restroom, go to the kitchen, whatever, if [00:07:00] a commercial comes on. You cannot do the same in a plane. At the same frequency. I mean, yes, you can get up, but the idea of having the ability to engage in an intimate and targeted manner with our users and to be able to show them things of their interest is huge.

[00:07:16] Right? And then you think more, in lounges and clubs, It's not going to be personalized. If Damien walks in, if you walk into the club, you don't want to see. Hello, Damon. How are you? Do you need a new green shirt? That's creepy, right? Yes. So again, there's you can think about. the business traveler travels from Monday at 5 a.

[00:07:35] m. to 11 a. m. and Thursdays from 4 to 7. So perhaps we put advertisers endemic to that audience. Families travel on weekends and these are generalities. But through research and through signals, we can begin to capture that. And again, the right message at the right time.

[00:07:50] Damian: What customer insights will help connect brands with United Flyers?

[00:07:54] Mike: So we capture over 120 targetable segments, or signals, I should say. And that [00:08:00] is, a mix of attitudinal, behavioral, lifestyle, and transactional. And today, our audience indexed to the highly affluent individual. Married, college educated, homeowner, household income of 250, 000 plus. And so you'll see in some of our launch partners, Bottega Veneta, which is a luxury brand, McAllen's, a higher end Scotch.

[00:08:21] Very good for that audience, but at the same time, we are very diverse in terms of who is on our plane. We, our launch partner was Televisa Univision. 25 percent of the Chicago population is Hispanic. Is it 63 million, Spanish speaking, Americans in the U. S., right? So the idea of just focusing on one demographic doesn't do anyone justice.

[00:08:45] very much. Right? Again, speaks to that scale of data. And so, we, there's a use case for every single brand, every single opportunity. We

[00:08:56] Damian: that nuance that you can bring to it, to [00:09:00] advertising, is obviously key to this. what strategies is Connective employ to personalize ads and offer that to these different segments?

[00:09:08] We are a very privacy centric, privacy

[00:09:10] Mike: privacy safe, conservative approach to what we're doing. We sit atop GAM. we work with, a number of clean rooms. any and everything we do is meant to uphold the integrity of that customer's data. we will never sell the data as a stand alone. It'll always be wrapped with media on a managed basis.

[00:09:31] And I say that because the sale of data opens up opportunity for bad actors. Then there are bad actors out there. So when it comes down to it You know, we want to ensure that we are keeping our customers, information, and privacy at the forefront. And then, any and everything we do is in a compliant way.

[00:09:51] Data collaborations through clean rooms, proper encryption at all specific times, proper measurement and verification. it's a textbook [00:10:00] approach, knowing full well that, 

[00:10:04] Mike: party data is currency, you have to protect it, and you have to use it in the right manner.

[00:10:09] Damian: And it feels great, right? The work that we did is meaningful.

[00:10:20] Mike: It's been overwhelming, honestly. I used to work, I helped startup advertising. com a long time ago, and all its brand names up through Yahoo. And I was always the one vying for a brand's business. To work on a brand site now has been an eye opening experience because you have the problem of choice. And the reception to what we've been doing has been incredibly positive.

[00:10:44] and it feels great, right? The work that we did is meaningful. The work that we did is interesting. but we have to be smart in terms of who we work with. I would say the outreach from partners, we always want to maintain a very premium nature for any owned [00:11:00] and operated supply. I think it's important.

[00:11:02] Again, the brand integrity for United is paramount. but at the same time, as I said earlier, there's a use case for all brands. And we're always open to exploration and conversations. And then making the right choice based on United brand, based on the value for our customers and for the overall business.

[00:11:21] Damian: Now travel has skyrocketed since pandemic times, and that's been well reported. Can you describe the change United has seen more generally in people coming back to the skies?

[00:11:32] Mike: the largest airline in the U. S. right now. and it's, it's a great position to be in because people fly United for the experience.

[00:11:39] We do not compete with low cost carriers. That's not our model. People fly for the convenience, for the experience, for the opportunity to increase their loyalty status, for the journey in itself. Our app is the number one rated app in the, in, of all airlines, and if you, you know, I'm not sure if you're a flyer or not, Thank you.

[00:11:58] If you are [00:12:00] so you see that app is very intuitive in terms of my baggage goes here. My gate is here. And so against personalization, right? It may not be specific. Damien. This is your journey. Rather, you are flying at this airport. Here is where your luggage is. Here's where your gate is. And it's just it's taking those steps to just again lessen the hassle of travel.

[00:12:19] And then, as you get on the plane, our flight attendants, our ground crew, our pilots are just top caliber. it's the friendliness that you see. again, the experience extends beyond

[00:12:29] Damian: a traveler's standpoint.

[00:12:30] Mike: Connected media provides an opportunity for us to gather what we have from our three core pillars. Travel, loyalty, and media.

[00:12:39] And it's that flywheel. we are able to ingest signals based on the profiles that we have. And in doing so, you begin to see the traveler profile as it begins to matriculate to an actual loyalty partner.

[00:12:52] 39 million mileage plus loyalty partners. We have a co brand card through Chase. Right. We have our mileage plus [00:13:00] partnerships team, and we think about that from the Avis's, the Marriott's, from a travel endemic standpoint, non endemic, even like the away, I guess away luggage is not therabody, things to that effect.

[00:13:10] And so, the ability to accrue and redeem miles as transaction. And then, with the credit card, the ability to redeem miles, or accrue miles, I should say, through transactions. As you go through the flywheel, you come to the media piece, which is the connective tissue. To understanding the middle and lower funnel of that transaction, purchase point, brand affinity, options for our users.

[00:13:33] And then back to the first part, the emotion, and the journey, and the actual travel. And as we do this flywheel, we have more travelers, which means more signals, which means more opportunities for media, which means more, and it's a self fulfilling flywheel that essentially, again, with the customer in the middle, or the customer is the focus, it's Creates that opportunity to your point of why people are flying more with United.[00:14:00] 

[00:14:00] Damian: What kind of feedback have you had from those customers? what are people's experience, what are people experiencing and how are they setting that back to you?

[00:14:08] Mike: think the best part is, they've come up and said I'm so excited you're doing this. Never would have thought of this. like you, you're hearing it from the horse's mouth, right? So there's, in an unbiased manner, what I'm most proud of is the fact that we've come out with a legitimate business with a very, very focused North Star, that is focused solely around the customer.

[00:14:31] that's unique. And to bring it to market at the speed that we did. With the help that we had from partners and the support that we've had from the industry has been just, has been amazing. Now the

[00:14:43] Damian: the idea now seems like a very good one. And you're describing, you're telling me, Mike, how quickly you brought it to market. What, in under a year, really? I mean, it's a good idea. Do you expect that other airlines are going to want to emulate, what you've done here with your media network?

[00:14:59] Mike: is [00:15:00] a very savvy airline. They're a great airline. they're doing certain things

[00:15:07] with the connect, that we're connecting. streaming from a device to their, seatback screens. They've done partnerships with Walmart Plus and such. Whether they come out with a full scale media network, I'm not sure. but, United and Delta are the top two airlines in the U. S.

[00:15:22] And they are a very savvy brand. So, if they come out, I would not be, surprised. I don't know about the others. You know, for me, it's not one's better than the other. It's just where I see the next. In

[00:15:35] Damian: In general, while we're on the topic of predictions, when you look ahead to the rest of this year and to next, as you build this offering out, what are the kind of trends you're looking for in terms of that merging of travel and media that you just talked about? The year into next, what trends are you all looking for?

[00:16:09] Mike: It's really, when you and I grew up, you had to pay for HBO, you had to pay for ESPN. it's a similar model, and you're seeing consolidation and M& A start in that sector. There's too many choices for consumers. Today, there's 273 retail media networks. That is not scalable, right? Marketers and agencies already have too many choices to make.

[00:16:30] and at the same time, the uniqueness of that data, depending on the sectors. It may not be all that unique. I do think there's going to be consolidation. There has to be. And for me, I would expect that. I think we're in a very good position just given the unique position that we're in. And quite frankly, like the three pillars, right?

[00:16:53] Scale, accuracy, and omni channel. And we can say we have that with confidence. I would say like, [00:17:00] to your point of expectations, there has to be consolidation. I think the introduction of AI, it wouldn't be a podcast without saying AI. I've already said flywheel, if there's another one I need to say.

[00:17:11] But I do think, the introduction of AI into not only the purchase path, but more importantly, the analytics. Right? Humans know which questions to ask. AI will figure out what other questions to ask. And as we constantly feed these models, you're going to have, just from an analytics standpoint, the ability to extract new data, new intelligence, new insights, and we want to be on the forefront there to ensure that, we modernize our offering at a pace that is quicker, than what the industry is seeing.

[00:17:44] Damian: Do you anticipate that your media network and what you're offering might have some kind of partnerships with some of those streaming platforms? I'm just thinking. Yeah, it's my job. So,

[00:17:54] Mike: So, like, I do. I think there's opportunity for partnership. Yeah. it's the many versus the [00:18:00] power of one.

[00:18:00] Damian: Yeah. 

[00:18:01] Mike: You have to be selective, right? If you partner with everyone, you partner with no one. So, I think there's opportunities in the travel space. I do think there's opportunities in the non endemic space, too. We're at really early stages, so Honestly, platform side, I'm not used to this much attention.

[00:18:21] and I love it. And we brought friends in to build this business. I'm working with my friends. I absolutely love it. And so together we're kind of sitting down and putting our heads together and say, okay, like we got to the starting line. We bust out our asses for nine months and we got to the starting line. How do we run this race and always be the leader? Because there's going to be people coming up after us. And that challenge with one another is great because we're pushing one another to be better. And it's not intense in the sense that like, any conversations with emotion are meant for constructive and collaboration.

[00:18:57] And I think we're all being better because we're constantly pushing [00:19:00] one another. But more importantly, we're supporting one another.

[00:19:02] Damian: Yeah. you do see some relationships with broadcasters, with in flight entertainment, but I imagine this is going to go. To a different level.

[00:19:11] Mike: this is the early stage of the business. This is the exciting part. we're the bright, shiny object right now, and I think it's good to revel in that just to pat yourself on the back and say, Hey, we did it.

[00:19:22] But realistically, like complacency doesn't get you anywhere, right? So everyone else has got has gotten to the starting line. There's been 273 other companies that got to the starting line, and some are running the race faster than others, and some are not even on the same course anymore. so for us, I think it's about heads down, and just constantly push.

[00:19:42] And to be the best,

[00:19:49] Damian: is highly competitive. Do you feel the pressure?

[00:19:53] Mike: I don't feel the pressure from the industry. I feel the pressure to deliver. Like, me personally, I hold the bar very [00:20:00] high for myself, and I'm my worst critic. I know what it's like to be successful. I helped launch advertising. com and I can tell you those first five years were by far like the highlight of my life from a professional standpoint.

[00:20:11] these last nine months are on par with that. And if I can make the next four years and three months the same or better, I'm going to do everything I can to do it. And if there's 23 years, 18 more years to follow that, great. I hope to retire at some point in my life. But, um, I'm just excited because.

[00:20:30] This is real. And it's good. And, will be responsible for our success. So, yeah, I'm really excited about it. 

[00:20:37] Damian: thank you so much for these insights. It's been great.

[00:20:40] Mike: to speak with you, Damian. Thank you.

[00:20:42] Damian: And that's it for this edition of The Current Podcast.

[00:20:44] We'll be back next week, so stay tuned.

[00:20:47] Ilyse: The Current Podcast's theme is by Love Caliber. The current team includes Kat Vesce and Sydney Cairns.

[00:20:53] Damian: . And remember, I'm Damian.

[00:20:55] Ilyse: I'm Ilyse.

[00:20:56] Damian: And we'll see you next time. And if you like what you hear, please [00:21:00] subscribe and leave us a review. Also, tune in to our other podcast, The Current Report.

Wayfair Head of Brand Marketing Kara O’Brien joins The Current Podcast to discuss blending the in-store and digital shopping experience.

Please note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio.

[00:00:00] Damian: I'm Damian

[00:00:00] Ilyse: I'm Ilyse Liffreing

[00:00:02] Ilyse: And welcome to this edition of The Current Podcast.

[00:00:05] Damian: This week, we're delighted to talk with Kara O'Brien, Head of Brand Marketing and Analytics at Wayfair.

[00:00:11] Ilyse: For years, Wayfair has been an online one stop shop for people looking for everything from beds to couches to kitchen appliances. In fact, for those browsing home goods, the choices often seem endless.

[00:00:23] Damian: I know, because I've spent many long hours looking for the perfect bathroom cabinet to fit into my tiny New York apartment. But seriously though, one of the big draws for Wayfair has always been its reasonable prices for its products.

[00:00:35] Ilyse: Wayfair is famous as an e commerce platform, but now that's changing. In May, the company opened its first brick and mortar store. start by asking Kara about why the company made this move.

[00:00:47] Ilyse: First, I believe congratulations are in order because Wayfair opened its first brick and mortar store back in May.

[00:00:54] So, why don't you walk us through the decision to make the leap into a physical storefront?[00:01:00] 

[00:01:00] Kara: Absolutely We are so excited about this milestone. It's something that's been a long time coming. I personally have been at Wayfair for 10 years, and it has been one of the peak moments of my time there to see our brand come to life physically. so why now? I mean, our ethos has always been to deliver the best possible experience for our customer, and now we want to really be able to do it however they shop and however they choose to shop.

[00:01:24] And so to be able to bring the It's a product to the customer. Let them see it in person, help guide them through the purchasing process. It's it makes a ton of sense. And, consumer demand has shifted so much during and since the pandemic, there was, pretty strong move to buying these more considered purchases online when people had no option to go in store.

[00:01:46] But, now we're seeing the pendulum swing back and the consumer preference is to have a mix, to have a balance, to be able to see things in person, but have the convenience of being able to shop and research from home. 

[00:01:57] Ilyse: Yes, now I know I'm, I have an apartment in New York and i've spent too many hours on Wayfair, probably.

[00:02:03] Kara: - love to hear that.

[00:02:04] Ilyse: but why did you land on Wilmette, Illinois for this touch point? And how are you bringing the brand to life in store?

[00:02:12] Kara: Yeah, to start with Wilmette, I think there's two big considerations that ended up there. one is convenience. And so we really want to make shopping for your home as easy as possible. It's a process. It's something that's so important to so many people.

[00:02:25] And so we don't want the process itself to feel onerous. And so for us, we had found this wonderful space. It's in a revitalized shopping center. It's surrounded by suburbs with lots of young families who are really kind of our core customer. And then the access to the broader Chicagoland, uh, area was fantastic.

[00:02:45] So that's always been a strong market for us. But more on the business side, it's, It's very well positioned within our logistics network, and to kind of come back to that idea of convenience, we can ship products to, directly to customers home instead of trying to fit something [00:03:00] large and bulky in the back of your trunk.

[00:03:02] And so we're able to do that fast, free, easy, when they've seen something in store or if they've explored beyond.

[00:03:10] Ilyse: mortars follow or?

[00:03:12] Kara: I think that's the idea eventually, but I think one thing we're really trying to do is learn at being an e commerce company. First, there's so much one way conversation that you have with the customer through your marketing, through your site. This is an opportunity to have that two way conversation.

[00:03:28] And, we recognize we're new to the space. We're going to learn a ton and hopefully be able to apply that

[00:03:34] Ilyse: what 

[00:03:34] Damian: to what extent does the physical store help build the brand perception? And I know you sort of touched on that, but what I'm interested in is, it's known as an e commerce platform, and here you are now building out a physical store.

[00:03:46] So What does that do? How does that help?

[00:03:49] Kara: Yeah, well, I think it's rooted in who we were as an e commerce company, right? We have so many different types of products. We have, tens of millions of products on site. [00:04:00] And so the challenge at hand was really how do you take that vast selection and put it into a box, right? You can only put a finite number of products in.

[00:04:08] And so for us, what we were really trying to solve for is how do you at Google Demonstrate that breadth, but still assist people through that purchasing process so that they can find that thing they were looking for, even if they didn't even know they wanted it. And so a lot of our philosophy was we want to be able to give you departments that are specific to a space, but we also wanted to have a through line that We're specific to your style.

[00:04:34] So the way you can shop the store, it's not, living room over here, bedroom over here, completely cordoned off. It's more of a choose your own adventure. So if I have multiple projects and I have a modern aesthetic with a little bit of a rustic twist. We have pathways to carry you through.

[00:04:49] If you are mission driven and just need a new set of pots and pans, we can get you there quickly too. and so then the other thing that's a component to that, given how much we have, is the [00:05:00] support needed along the way. And so we have our associates trained to help you find the things you want, if you want a different color, we can show you that through our e commerce platform, but then you know that the size is perfect because you saw it in the store.

[00:05:12] Damian: So you're connecting the in store experience to the digital experience.

[00:05:16] Kara: closely. The technology enablement was so important to us. We wanted to make sure people could understand again that endless aisle, but make it a very shoppable experience in store. we also are going to be launching new services like design services to help customers complete that project with confidence.

[00:05:31] and so very much want it to be an interplay. Now,

[00:05:40] Ilyse: back in March, which included a full omni channel activation featuring celebrity spokespeople and an updated logo. What were the most successful lovers within this campaign, and are there any surprising insights so far? Yeah, well, we

[00:05:54] Kara: Yeah, we were really excited to bring this to market. along with this campaign, we have a revised tagline [00:06:00] of every style, every home. And I think the whole goal in the campaign was to be able to show that, not just say that. And so by bringing in different personalities, some recognizable, some just relatable, we felt like we could showcase that breadth, but in ways that, a consumer looks at the ad, the campaign and says, Oh, I see myself in that.

[00:06:17] I know that I can get what I'm looking for. as it comes to the winds, it's still early days, just launching in March. Not a ton of time. But we're seeing really positive response to the casting to the breadth of personalities were showing. It's quite memorable as a result. So we're seeing good spikes in attention metrics.

[00:06:35] We know it's resonant, and we know that people are associating it with wayfair. So for us, that own ability was a really important goal in the campaign.

[00:06:43] Ilyse: TV spots during the Oscars. Yes. What was the impact of those pretty high profile ads?

[00:06:49] Kara: Oh, I think it was really nice as we went on this more of an evolution than a revolution of the brand. It was really nice to be able to showcase that in a big splashy way and have as many people [00:07:00] see it as possible. And then as you've seen and will continue to see over the course of the year, we're really building on that.

[00:07:06] So we have a few different spots. They all exist in this world of the waverhood and, that sort of, The sort of universal experiences that people have in their communities are the things we're trying to show in all different ways. Now beyond those

[00:07:19] Damian: Now beyond those big TV spots, are there other sort of digital channels that you're exploring?

[00:07:24] Kara: lot of this campaign was not just about the what, but the where. And so we've definitely taken an expanded lens to how we show up for our customers, and really trying to make sure we understand where they're spending time. We show up there and then as a result are additive to their experience, too And you know some of the newer spaces were in definitely moving more into streaming video Moving more into audio which we hadn't done before home tends to be quite a visual category So that's been a really exciting experiment for us and then working with all sorts of creators I think that's an emerging area [00:08:00] for us but really important for thinking about home and showcasing style and self expression

[00:08:06] Damian: a sort of Specific demographic. You mentioned young homeowners. That's interesting. And that perhaps predetermines which channels you might like to engage people in.

[00:08:16] Kara: Absolutely.

[00:08:17] we are a mass brand. We do have something for everyone. But at the same time, when you think about who's spending disproportionately on their home, who has more needs, it's definitely the folks who are going through these meaningful life events where their notion of home is changing. And so really the sort of bullseye of that are young families.

[00:08:36] you're getting married, you're moving in together, you're trying to merge styles maybe successfully, maybe less successfully, you have parents who are now thinking about safety and designing a nursery all the way through durability as the kids get older. And then, moving on up through to empty nesters.

[00:08:53] There's a very different set of needs. So we really want to start with that sort of nucleus of a starter family, a young family, [00:09:00] and grow the relationship from

[00:09:01] Damian: That absolutely makes sense. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:09:11] Ilyse: an e commerce company? That's

[00:09:13] Kara: that's a fantastic question. for us, we're longtime digital marketers. Digital is a very direct path to our site. And so a lot of the challenges when you're, telling a story and you're trying to guide towards that less direct path to get to site, how do you do so? And, help the customer understand what they should expect when they show up.

[00:09:31] And so for me, the things that I'm thinking about all the time are storytelling. Really trying to make sure that we are contextually relevant wherever we're showing up, again, something that we're tackling with the new distribution channels. and then really making sure that a company that has been so digitally minded is making that connection.

[00:09:50] And so, now under my purview is our on site team. Marketing team and thinking about when you see us in a TV ad, and then you show up on our home page. How do we make that feel like a [00:10:00] continuous journey? so it's definitely been a journey. I think it's an exciting one. Again, as somebody who's been with this brand for a long time, it's really exciting to see us lean more into that storytelling.

[00:10:09] Ilyse: So you've been with Wayfair now for over 10 years. In that time frame, How would you categorize and characterize the changes in the media landscape?

[00:10:20] Kara: I really think how the consumer expects to discover content has changed dramatically. Where they go, Who they go to, how they think about sharing. It's just, it's changing so rapidly and continues to do so. So for us, as we think about a category that is quite emotive, quite personal. Quite unique to an individual.

[00:10:43] We want to make sure that we can show up in a way that helps somebody discover what they're looking for or discover that perfect piece. And so, you know, insofar as the media landscape, it's not just turning to a single celebrity or a single friend. You actually have access to so much. And so, we want to be a [00:11:00] breakthrough voice.

[00:11:00] We want to help people parse through that and find that perfect thing, which ends up being then this ultimate combination of content and commerce. 

[00:11:09] Ilyse: How does Wayfair go about measuring the impact of the users on its sites? 

[00:11:16] Kara: yeah. So I mean, picking up on that thread of bridging the offline and the online, I think what's been, you know, a challenge faced by many brands is that you have to think about that total ecosystem that a customer is interacting with and how you can understand how they're moving through it, what they're seeing, what they're reacting to.

[00:11:34] And so for us, we've been on a little bit of a journey to expand how we think about measurement. we've Certainly done a lot of investment in multi touch attribution, especially being more digitally native. we're expanding to think about running different kinds of experiments, understanding, lift on brand metrics over the short term and over the long term.

[00:11:54] and then adding to our based model arsenal. what's great about being e commerce [00:12:00] first, though, is we do get a lot of first party data on our customers. We can see how they move around our site. We know where they've come from, largely, and we can start to stitch that story together so that we can serve them better through personalized mediums as well as an aggregate understand, where they're gravitating towards.

[00:12:17] Ilyse: What are some of the major KPIs that you try to hit or some of those analytics that you really strive for?

[00:12:25] Kara: Yeah, for us, we always just want to build a notion of impact. And I think what's been growing us as marketers is that's not a singular definition. And so it depends on the campaign. It depends on the goal of the test. when we're thinking about offline marketing or brand marketing, we're looking for immediate recall.

[00:12:44] We're looking for a lift in certain impression metrics. or, perception metrics, rather, depending on what we're trying to convey through the campaign, all the way through to more of the mid funnel and consideration, where are we driving visits? What share of those are from new customers versus prior customers?[00:13:00] 

[00:13:00] And then how are those customers engaging on site? Are they purchasing right away? Did they come in because they saw a specific category or style? All the way through to how many visits does it take before you're comfortable making a large purchase? and so we follow them, you can call it a funnel, though it tends to not be quite so linear as a funnel.

[00:13:18] Um, yeah.

[00:13:19] Ilyse: in some cases, the funnel has kind of died with like e commerce. Yeah,

[00:13:23] Kara: it's much more of, I said the word before, an ecosystem, right? Like things are moving together non linearly and it's about telling that story, that narrative internally and then playing it back to the customer to give them what they're looking for. 

[00:13:37] Damian: as we, you know, look to 2025, what are the things that are sort of exciting you in terms of innovation when it comes to marketing?

[00:13:44] Yeah,

[00:13:48] Kara: and back again, I think we really want to create a total experience for customers, and that'll be through storytelling. That'll be through working with different types of [00:14:00] partners, really thinking about how consumers want to do discovery, and, that's going to be a big focus for us.

[00:14:06] I think like many brands, we are exploring the right use cases for AI to power a lot of what we do. There's everything from the, the stuff behind the walls of how do you get more efficient in your processes all the way through, expanding the number of creatives you're able to put out in a given test.

[00:14:24] so that's very much an area of investment and innovation for us. and then, you know, as we continue to learn through the store, going back to where we started and understanding how we can just make customers lives easier, you think about expanding that to the entire delivery experience, any type of follow on customer service that's needed.

[00:14:44] There's a lot of places where we think we're quite differentiated and we always want to take a technology first approach to it.

[00:14:51] Ilyse: And that's it for this edition of The Current Podcast.

[00:14:53] Damian: We'll be back next week, so stay tuned.

[00:14:56] Ilyse: The Current Podcast's theme is by Love Caliber. The current [00:15:00] team includes Cat Fessy and Sydney Cairns. And remember, 

[00:15:03] I'm Damian.

[00:15:04] Ilyse: I'm Ilyse.

[00:15:05] Damian: And we'll see you next time. And if you like what you hear, please subscribe and leave us a review. Also, tune in to our other podcast, The Current Report.

Parbinder Dhariwal, VP and GM of CVS Media Exchange, discusses CVS’s self-service advertising offering and the future of DEI initiatives in retail media.

Episode Transcript

Please note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio.

[00:00:00] Ilyse: I'm Ilyse Liffreing.

[00:00:01] Damian: I'm Damian Fowler.

[00:00:02] Ilyse: welcome to this edition of The Current Podcast.

[00:00:04] Damian: This week we're delighted to talk with Parbinder Dhariwal, or Parbs as he's known by friends and colleagues. He's the Vice President and General Manager at CVS Media Exchange.

[00:00:14] Ilyse: Launched in 2020, the CVS Media Exchange, or CMX, helps brands and partners reach CVS Pharmacy customers and members of its Extra Care Loyalty Program through a variety of digital platforms, including social channels, programmatic display, and on cvs.com.

[00:00:32] Damian: There's been a ton of advertiser interest in the retail media space. In fact, it's become one of the fastest growing digital media channels.

[00:00:39] Ilyse: According to Group M, retail media networks are expected to grow revenues by 8. 3 percent in 2024. We start off by asking Parbs about this revolution.

[00:00:50] Damian: So, Parbs, we keep reading about the retail media revolution from retail media networks exploding to self service and data portability. What do you think the next phase of this [00:01:00] revolution is? Well, the

[00:01:01] Parbs: the retail media revolution is in full swing, isn't it? it's rockin and rollin right now. and, doesn't seem to be slowing down and letting up.

[00:01:08] I think the, Group M stat and growth that they're forecasting for this year is an interesting one. we also know that it's gonna be the fastest growing channel, right the way through 2027. If you look at the market to stats, we're gonna outpace linear TV in the next couple of years.

[00:01:23] So there is tremendous amount of growth. I think as we think about that revolution as we think about the way in which we operate as an organizer, as as an industry as a whole. measurement, transparency and clear campaign attribution are going to continue to be the driving force of the way in which we think about our business.

[00:01:42] this has got to be central for brands. We have an opportunity as an industry to really change the game there and we're very much leaving in. the other piece is, is around how do we continue to advance in technology, how do we continue to advance in, using AI, [00:02:00] machine learning, a lot of the analytics tools that are going to be available to us and build our capabilities so we can really start to compete with some of those larger platforms, within the industry.

[00:02:11] And then also, let's always not forget, retail media is nothing without the core brands that we are retail media networks, and a part of. So, in this instance, we're very much a retail media network. CMX is the retail media network for CVS, pharmacy. we operate under that guise, And what is most important to us within that capacity is for us to really understand and meet the needs of the consumer.

[00:02:36] If we don't understand the consumer, we can't meet their needs. If we can't service the consumer and help understand, whether they're in a store environment and how could we create a level of discoverability in the in store environment? Or how do we create that discoverability in digital environments?

[00:02:53] That's when we start to lose our gravitas. So thinking about the consumer first and then how do we add [00:03:00] to their experience as they're shopping through our stores, both, as I said, from a physical as well as digital and looking at it through the omni channel lens.

[00:03:09] Damian: and just off the back of that, you do have tremendous scale. What kind of customer reach are you looking at?

[00:03:15] Parbs: Yeah, it's a, great question. And you got to remember CVS, pharmacy is a national brand in the United States. And I'll give you some, this probably the moment for me to, throw a few stats at you, right? Like, let's do this. so first and foremost, CVS stores, there's 9, 000 locations in the U S.

[00:03:32] we are, part of CVS health, which is, The largest health and wellness, business in the U. S. 

[00:03:39] Parbs: As you think about our stores in particular, we have close to 5 million interactions with our stores every single day from consumers. So, vast amount of traffic that comes through our stores and for various need states as well.

[00:03:52] from a digital perspective, we have almost 140 million, Users who are coming to the CVS. com site and again interacting with us [00:04:00] with various different need states. but shopping is a core component of that. And then the most important stats certainly from a CMX standpoint is we are predicated and built upon our loyalty program.

[00:04:11] And it kind of differentiates us a little bit from other retail media networks. Our loyalty program is 74 million extra care consumers. substantial. at scale, but also gives us that really strong purview of that omnichannel experience. So hopefully that sort of just helps you give an understanding of the scale that we operate within.

[00:04:33] Really?

[00:04:33] Damian: yeah, I mean, it's massive and we want to talk a little bit more about the Extra Care Loyalty Program.

[00:04:38] Parbs: Program. If there's anybody out

[00:04:39] Damian: further on. but you know, I'm not sure if this question if there's anybody out there right now who doesn't actually, subscribe to retail media. the power of retail media. But what would you say to such a person, an advertiser who believes retail media doesn't fit into their media investment?

[00:04:55] Parbs: Yeah, I say that to them that, you know, retail data, [00:05:00] the way in which we see the transactions within our stores, that level of wealth of proprietary data is an understanding of. Of behaviors and the way in which consumers are shopping between digital, physical environments when they're coming into store, the frequency by which they're purchasing product.

[00:05:17] That is a highly effective tool. And as a brand, if you're not leveraging that, you're missing out on an enormous channel. This is the reason why. Brands are leaning in heavily. They're becoming much more sophisticated in how they use retail media. I think they're also really pushing retail media as well to become more sophisticated in the offerings, more sophisticated in the way that we measure more sophisticated in the way in which we provide that level of transparency across our businesses.

[00:05:46] Closing the loop and building that attribution model is also really, really important. That sets us apart from any other platform. like that. There are some of the larger platforms that have continually [00:06:00] struggled to provide that level of closed loop attribution as I think about I saw an ad or I've engaged with an ad.

[00:06:08] And what has that driven me to do? And what is the outcomes as a result of that? That again is something that retail media is very much in an exclusive camp. And we've got to make sure that brands truly understand how to use them.

[00:06:21] Damian: that

[00:06:22] Parbs: And the other thing that we should, make sure that we, that we understand is that there's retail media networks that have enormous amount of first party data.

[00:06:33] And as a result of that first party data,

[00:06:35] Damian: not

[00:06:36] Parbs: it gives us the ability to leverage that consumer across the omni channel. But not just on our own owned and operated properties, but how do you leverage that data or that asset across the open web. Right when you're trading with, through be it through DSP environments or otherwise.

[00:06:53] How do you leverage that CVS data, the extra care loyalty program to continually [00:07:00] enrich your programs, your marketing efforts to drive more performance to drive more product to drive more engagement with the consumer. So we're sitting on a we're sitting on a massive opportunity. And it's in our hands, right?

[00:07:14] It's in our hands as the retailers to, To step up. It's in our hands to make sure that we continue to provide all of the things that brands are looking for and provide that level of transparency on how we're measuring our performance and more importantly, bringing brands in the industry along on this.

[00:08:38] We're, it's got to be additive to their journey, not disruptive. we want to, we don't want to put things in the way of the consumer getting to the products that they need. But we, what we do is we want to enable a level of discoverability through the retail media networks that gives them access to products that they didn't realize that they could buy at CVS.

[00:08:55] They didn't realize that they were, in the beauty counter. I think it's, I think those are really [00:09:00] important.

[00:09:00] Ilyse: really important. Yeah. On that note, last year, CVS is extra care. It was named one of Newsweek's best loyalty programs. How has CVS cultivated such a strong relationship with its customers?

[00:09:12] Parbs: Yeah, and look, extra care has been around for over two decades. The longitudinal latitudinal nature of the program gives us a really strong insight into the way that the consumers have been having and purchasing products with us. again, I'm sounding like a little bit of a broken record here.

[00:09:30] It's not my intention, but the consumer is at the center of everything that we do. Understanding the way that the consumer purchases, it enables us to deliver message, personalized message to those consumers in the environments within which they operate. We can understand certain need states and how that consumer is wanting to go, and work with us in the, in our environment.

[00:09:50] we will continue to build, that loyalty program for, with extra care. It's the foundation of CMX, we've talked about it at the top of this podcast. There's [00:10:00] 74 million of those consumers, they're swiping at really high levels. they're engaging with our, with our program as well.

[00:10:06] And, yeah. that's where the opportunity comes on. I was providing a level of service back to them with the ads business as well.

[00:10:12] Damian: self service. The

[00:10:13] Ilyse: On that note, no, separate notes. but along the line of service, CVS Media Exchange introduced the self service option for advertisers that was announced this past CanLion. why is launching a self service important for increased transparency? I know that's a popular buzzword around, the industry, but it's also extremely important.

[00:10:36] Yeah,

[00:10:37] Damian: transparency

[00:10:38] Parbs: Transparency is, it is a buzzword, but it's a it's an old. It's also an incredibly important foundational pillar for us as a business. and the way in which we operate. So I think that's the, I would say that. the, related to the self serve announcement, that we announced at CAN, it's actually more about, whilst the transparency is there, it's also about accessibility.[00:11:00] 

[00:11:00] How do we provide a level of accessibility to our inventory, in, ways in which they can access that inventory through a DSP platform through a particular seat. So sell serve opens up how brands want to work with retail media. And we've only really been in market as a retail media network since 2020.

[00:11:21] We're developing this business. We're bringing it to market. I think we're doing it at speed. I think we're doing it very thoughtfully on The partners that we work with, in this instance, we're working with a trade desk on this self service program. trade desk shared our values.

[00:11:35] They share the way in which we want to innovate. They share the way in which we are looking at the consumer and driving that technology in order to continue to develop solutions for our advertisers. What I don't want us to forget is You know, as we think about that accessibility, as we think about transparency, how do we continue to iterate from here?

[00:11:57] How do we continue to develop innovation with [00:12:00] other tech partners, with the trade desk to, to further enhance how we're, bringing new solutions to our advertisers?

[00:12:07] Ilyse: Can you actually explain it a little bit more? Where, in using your self serve option, where can advertisers expect their ads to appear, or how are they accessing your data to, to drive

[00:12:23] Parbs: Yep. So we're going into a closed beta, with the trade desk. That will allow a certain number of select advertisers to come and work with us and develop programs, within our closed self serve beta environment. we're building audiences within those environments. The way in which it will operate is that the brand will use their Trade Desk C in order to activate campaigns through the Trade Desk DSP into the open web.

[00:12:52] So they have the ability to buy OpenWeb or CTV and all of the different products that are available through the Trade Desk [00:13:00] but accessibility to 74 million extra care consumers. It's the first time that we've made that available in a self serve capacity, with the Trade Desk. Now. , that's not always how brands wanna operate.

[00:13:11] Some brands want to go into the self-serve world and others want to just cont continue down the managed service route. So we will continue to offer managed serve as an option. so that product will remain and we have a strong team to support that. But we also want to create, again, accessibility options for the way in which brands wanna engage with us. Very interesting.

[00:13:34] Damian: Now, you wrote an op ed for The Current, this year, and in that op ed you said something, if I may quote you, creating a tailored customer experience across channels and pulling together data from various touchpoints, that being website visits, mobile apps, in store interactions, loyalty programs, and more.

[00:13:53] It can be a challenge, and I know we often like to talk about, opportunities and hand in hand with challenges. I wonder if you [00:14:00] could talk a little bit about the challenge you're referencing there.

[00:14:04] Parbs: Yeah, the challenge stems from, again, retail media is predicated on really closing the loop, so how do we attribute an action, right the way through to purchase. And if you think about, hyper personalization, for the consumer, to drive more engagement. That consumer is, it's, they're difficult to reach, but they're more importantly, they're difficult to make sure that we continually serve the right level of message to them in the right environments. Previously, retailers have struggled with, bringing that, the assets, the data components, and then how do you target personalized message to them within the channels that we want to talk to them as well. That's where, our first party data and the use of our first party data and as we're building our audiences really actually comes

[00:14:59] Ilyse: [00:15:00] the

[00:15:00] Parbs: its own.

[00:15:01] That challenge of, Understanding the consumer and how you can actually leverage that consumer in different channels That's really the driver to building a performance business for our brands

[00:15:15] Damian: a lot

[00:15:16] Parbs: We're seeing a lot of work around, whether it's through customer data platforms or other technology, to bring our consumers to life.

[00:15:23] We use data clean rooms to make sure that, we always drive the security of our, uh, consumer, that we're not passing any data, any information through to, consumers.

[00:15:33] Ilyse: tech

[00:15:34] Damian: to maintain

[00:15:35] Parbs: or through to any other platforms. We're maintaining that level of privacy. These are all obviously challenges. but it's important to mention that, as we think about propriety data, we think about precision targeting, we think about that real time optimization and that also the attribution

[00:15:51] Damian: attribution of

[00:15:52] Parbs: of an end to end reporting.

[00:15:54] That's where brands are really embracing retail media networks. That's where we've got to lean in as an [00:16:00] industry, and we've got to get better, we've got to get more transparent about how we're providing those solutions. because that, again, will grow the industry. And, look, we've seen the IAB come to the market with some clear guidelines on how we should be measuring, and what are the standardization of metrics.

[00:16:17] There's got to be more of that. Then there's got to be more of that lean in from retail media networks, because we've all got to move together to build a better industry, to build a better way in which brands can use our platforms, and give them options in the way in which they're talking to consumers.

[00:16:33] And, that's the exciting piece. It's phenomenal for retail media, right? Like It's a real moment.

[00:16:39] Damian: Yeah, you're writing them on the front lines of it. one aspect of retail data is that, advertisers can connect their digital environment with the physical shopping environment. And as you mentioned, CVS Pharmacy has all of these environments, physical environments across the United States.

[00:16:59] Why does it [00:17:00] matter that you connect those up?

[00:17:01] Parbs: connect those up? because the connection of the digital and physical environments, it's crucial because consumer shops, How they want to shop, depending on that current need stay or this particular situation that they're in at any given time, right?

[00:17:17] there's, if we think about that level of integration of data around online and offline buying behaviours, like advertisers are consistently trying to understand, first of all, how do you create a seamless experience between those two environments? But then more importantly how do you influence the consumer through that journey?

[00:17:37] Like we, we talk, for a number of years within this industry we've talked about our traditional funnel approach and there's no funnel anymore. retail media has actually condensed the funnel and you're, Point of delivery of message to through to point of purchase has shortened so much.

[00:17:55] it's it's almost an in. It's there's no awareness. There's no consider. It's just go [00:18:00] straight down to the bottom of the funnel and purchase from the moment that you see an ad. And so we've got to think about, how do we continue to add value in that process right the way through the digital and physical, experiences.

[00:18:14] There are some challenges there as well, right? Like it's, when we think about showing a, an ad to a consumer in a digital environment and then whether they purchase that product in digital or they, It's, buy online, pick up in store and send it to a store or they, go into a store and purchase, we see 52 percent of our, web and app users who start their journey in the digital capacity and then finish it in a physical capacity as well within 48 hours, right?

[00:18:43] Like that's the kind of thing. Yeah, and we've got to make sure that again, like working with the brands to to really surface those kind of insights so they can then be along that journey with that consumer as well through the experience. [00:19:00] Some of the in store activations when we got around about, we've got screens within our in store environments, at the pharmacy counter, we have digital audio, we have out shelf promotions and so on.

[00:19:11] Some of those are a little bit more difficult to measure. I think one of the challenges that we will face as an industry is how do we bring a level of measurability to those components and, I, there's a lot of, different outfits that are driving that. but with that, I think personalization needs to be consistent.

[00:19:27] Showing the value of connectivity between the digital and physical environments being with that consumer across that entire journey and every single touch point will also set you apart from the rest of the industry. ongoing. this is an evolution, right? As, as we continue to

[00:19:44] Ilyse: 

[00:19:44] Damian: That's

[00:19:49] Ilyse: that in the retail media space as it stands today? And how do you think it can evolve since it's so new?

[00:19:58] Parbs: Yeah, I am passionate [00:20:00] about it, and I'm passionate about it because I've been in this industry for 25 years, and I have I think we can do better, as it relates to D and I, and As we give opportunity across all different layers of an organization, these are really important for the growth of our industry.

[00:20:26] And I'm not just talking about retail, I'm talking about the advertising industry, for us to build opportunity for more diverse voices within our business, for different ways of thinking, for the way in which we want to be change agents within the whole industry. And We've got to continue to do better.

[00:20:48] Where retail media comes into play is that as we build this industry from the bottom up, it gives us an opportunity to think about D& I a little bit differently. we're building teams that are new teams. we might [00:21:00] already have a blueprint from different organizations that we work with on what's worked or what's not worked.

[00:21:06] And as we've looked at CMX, we've built purposefully A level of diversity into our organization that gives us an understanding of not just the way in which we want to think as an organization, but it also gives us a relationship with how our consumers are. we have consumers shopping us from across the United States.

[00:21:28] They're consumers from various walks of life. And if we understand the consumer and we can share it. an understanding of who they are and live in their shoes because we have, then that gives us an ability to think a little differently about our businesses. And then how does that relate to retail media?

[00:21:47] I think we can do better. I would like us to do better. I do challenge the industry around there. but overall, I think, retail media can really pave the way for how we think about D and I initiatives and bringing more [00:22:00] diverse voices Into our industry, and we're definitely doing that in CMX.

[00:22:03] We can stand behind that.

[00:22:04] Parbs: And that's it for this edition of The Current Podcast.

[00:22:06] Damian: We'll be back next week, so stay tuned.

[00:22:09] Ilyse: The Current Podcast's theme is by Love Caliber. The current team includes Kat Vesce and Sydney Cairns.

[00:22:16] Damian: And remember, I'm Damian.

[00:22:18] Ilyse: I'm Ilyse.

[00:22:19] Damian: And we'll see you next time. And if you like what you hear, please subscribe and leave us a review. Also, tune in to our other podcast, The Current Report.

Mark Penn, the chairman and CEO of Stagwell Inc., reflects on his extraordinary career, driven by his passion for politics and marketing, and offers insights on why this is a good year for marketers. 

Episode Transcript

Please note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio.

[00:00:00] Damian: I'm Damian Fowler.

[00:00:01] Ilyse: And I'm Ilyse Liffreing.

[00:00:02] Damian: And welcome to this edition of The Current Podcast.

[00:00:05] Ilyse: This week we're delighted to talk with Mark Penn, the Chairman and CEO of Stagwell.

[00:00:10] Damian: Well, first, as a political pollster, who's advised names like Bill and Hillary Clinton and Tony Blair.

[00:00:20] Later, he became Chief Strategist for Microsoft, before founding Stagwell, a digital first marketing and communications group.

[00:00:28] Ilyse: Mark's political background no doubt brings a much needed perspective to marketing. He argues that in today's real time, data driven world, brands must have a constant finger on the pulse of the American consumer.

[00:00:42] Damian: We start by asking him how these two worlds, politics and marketing, have always been bound together

[00:00:48] mark, it's no secret that you've covered the waterfront from being a political strategist to a poster to businessman and author. You know, can you walk us through a little bit about how you went from polling to politics to media? [00:01:00] That's a big question, right?

[00:01:01] Yes, I'm still trying to answer that question 

[00:01:03] Mark: myself. How did I get here? Uh, you know, I kind of re strategize myself like every decade or so. And I said, well, okay, what is it that I really want to do? And, and so I, I kind of started actually out as I was going to be a lawyer. Uh, and then I detoured from law, law to polling.

[00:01:22] And then I was going to be a pollster working for the president. And I got to do that. So then I kind of detoured from there. And then at a certain point, and I love technology. So I was then kind of went to Microsoft and became chief strategy officer. And then I, I had this idea to say, why can't I take all my experiences in polling and campaigns and running bursts in Marsteller.

[00:01:45] And I ran Microsoft's advertising too. And I said, you know what? I could form a better holding company because it could be more digital first. It could be more freed from the legacy assets. It could be more innovative. And so I did exactly that. [00:02:00] 

[00:02:00] Damian: Yeah, doing a little research on your background, it seems like your curiosity seems to have served you very well throughout life.

[00:02:06] Is that part of the DNA of, of what drives you or what, what keeps, what motivates you to keep going? 

[00:02:12] Mark: Well, you have to do what you're interested in. You know, I always think, it's so funny. You know, my partner and I were going to be corporate lawyers. And, and then we decided, you know what? We like this polling thing.

[00:02:22] We have impact on campaigns and society. And we thought, oh, we're giving up this cushy life as corporate lawyers. And we, we did a lot better doing polling than we ever would have done as corporate lawyers. So, what I always tell people is, follow your passion. Don't worry so much. If you do something, do it.

[00:02:38] Really interesting. Really? Well, you'll, you'll figure out how to, you know, how to manage the, the reward side of things, and that's much better than doing something you don't really like that you somehow think is going to be rewarding. 

[00:02:51] Damian: Now, Stagwell, as you mentioned, offices, big marketing network, let's tech driven, you know, as a leader in digital, you know, uh, how have you seen the [00:03:00] two areas move together, you know, the idea of digital marketing performance and creative, how do those two things.

[00:03:07] Mark: Well, I think they have to work together. I think that to the extent that you're creating a digital experience, that is a creative activity. That, that everyone remember, those of us who were not born digital, think of how we create a TV spot first. Those who were born digital don't think in that way. They think in how they're going to create a digital experience first.

[00:03:35] Right? And, and that takes the same kind of creativity, if not more so. Right? Because TV spots eventually had like a, they had like a, they had rules. Right? And they had a boundary and they were 30 seconds. And, you know, and you can be like, it's actually more of an interesting open canvas when it comes to digital creation.

[00:03:54] Ilyse: What would you say is one thing every brand or media buyer should be [00:04:00] thinking about today? 

[00:04:01] Mark: Uh, every media buyer, I think, today is just thinking about how they get the, Find the right place for their brand.

[00:04:10] I mean, I, I think, I think it's, it's kind of the basic of who's your real target audience and, and how, how are you going to find that audience? And I think they just have to be open minded that it's, that there are so many new ways to reach an audience that they have to spread their wings a little bit.

[00:04:28] Right. I mean, I think we went from, it was just TV. to it was just TV and Google and Facebook. So now it's Google Tiktok and retail marketing and so many other things. And I think they just have to be open to experimenting to find where their target audience really is. 

[00:04:43] Ilyse: Now it's no secret that the publishing industry is under a lot of pressure today.

[00:04:48] And Stagwell recently published a study called the news advertising study with the Findings that showcase that it's safe for brands to advertise next to news, regardless [00:05:00] of the topic, and that adds next to those even like controversial topics performed just as effectively as those within more like positive news environments, maybe like sports or entertainment.

[00:05:12] Now in your op ed for the current, you wrote that brands think there is less downside in those positive environments, but the opposite is true too. There is less upside. Can you tell us what you mean and why should advertisers care about these findings? 

[00:05:27] Mark: Well, I think that I discovered, and I discovered this when I did the budgeting at Microsoft.

[00:05:32] A lot of companies have a huge hole in their media buy. And that hole is news. Uh, that they will be advertising in sports and they will be advertising in entertainment. And they will be blocking out news, or they will be subscribing to a service that in effect blocks them out. And what maybe started out as some good idea, you know, that your, the ad for your, for Boeing shouldn't appear next to a plane crash, really [00:06:00] somehow devolved into something affecting 25 percent of news articles.

[00:06:04] Seriously demonetizing journalism. And it's having unintended consequences far beyond that. And brand safety? Seriously? I mean, I've yet to see some brand lying in the curb because their advertisement appeared in the New York Times or the Wall Street Journal. It's a ludicrous notion to be blacking out legitimate journalistic publications for, quote, brand safety.

[00:06:30] Damian: In general, the business model for news journalism is sort of evolving and changing. You know, what else is new? What do you think can advertisers and publishers do to work together to make sure that journalism is thriving even as newsrooms shutter? 

[00:06:42] Mark: Well, I think that there has to be a little bit of re education here with the CMOs and the media buyers.

[00:06:50] I think they're afraid that somehow they're going to trigger some backlash against their company. Yeah, certain, certain things have [00:07:00] triggered a backlash. But to go back to, I've never known that backlash to come from advertising in one of the major publications. And, and so consequently, I think that they can reduce some of their fear levels.

[00:07:12] And then also they have to understand that news consumers, right, in about 25 percent of the country, maybe 23 percent of the country, are what I classify as news junkies, right, who, who go in and, and, And kind of get updated on the news five times a day. That is a great engaged audience. They read stuff.

[00:07:32] Okay. That means they're more likely actually to kind of absorb your advertisement than someone who doesn't read stuff. Uh, and, and so I think they really have to rethink how some of their media planning and the audiences they're targeting and, and get out there and experiment with news. Cause I, again, I, I think, I think for the social problem here is that it's demonetizing news and putting journalists out, out of work.

[00:07:57] But just be greedy. Just, just go, you know, just [00:08:00] think about your brand. I think it will benefit. 

[00:08:02] Damian: They shouldn't be on the back foot so much. Speaking of news, of course, this year is a presidential election year in the U. S. and elections all around the world. Um, what do you think are the top channels in today's media landscape for this year's U.

[00:08:13] S. presidential election? 

[00:08:15] Mark: Well, I, I, I think that's, that's kind of interesting. Look, most campaigns spend most money on TV, right? So, but as I tell commercial advertisers, you know, if you have your customers in Ohio, well, Ohio is a less of a swing state than it was, but let's say Arizona or Nevada, Virginia.

[00:08:34] Good luck. Good luck buying media, you know, in the last few months here, because it is going to be jammed because there's more money than ever in politics, right? And so then, then politics is, is, is then going to go over to, to social media. Right? And I think spend a lot of money on on social media, uh, all being right.

[00:08:55] And you know, and you're going to find just from an age cohort, you're going to find people on X or [00:09:00] older and people on Tiktok or younger. And kind of, you have to kind of understand your audience and the medium. So it's interesting. You know, I came from a lot of old school TV advertising. Uh, I've yet to see how people as effectively drive a message.

[00:09:16] Right on social media. I think they've got to do more work. As I always say, the best digital ads in either politics or commercial have yet to be invented, 

[00:09:27] Ilyse: you know, to that. effort, um, especially when connecting with, like, Gen Zers, do you think technology will play more of a role? Is that, do we see candidates still, um, sticking true to, like, social media or are there other channels you think they're playing even more in this year?

[00:09:44] Well, it's

[00:09:44] Mark: interesting that, you know, what does Trump really do? Trump does events, so his event strategy is then geared to create content that then gets distributed primarily through social media, right? And, and so it's [00:10:00] very interesting because, because it's almost, you know, we look here, you know, I'm, we're, well, we're, we're at something called Sport Beach, and so, so events are back.

[00:10:09] And events aren't a substitute for the media. They are, they generate the content that you really need. That's because people, people want content that's fresh, right? And they want to feel that they're in the moment. They don't want something that's old and that's canned. Uh, and so I think that's, that's really, really important.

[00:10:28] But we are seeing, look, we know that about 70 percent of budgets now have really gone online. And that is, that is, you know, back, when I was at Microsoft a decade ago, it was probably 2%. So that has gone beyond anybody's expectations. Of course, that was one of the reasons that I founded Stagwell because we saw that and we wanted to be ahead of that curve.

[00:10:51] And of course, that's one of the things that we, you know, work together closely with the trade desk on. 

[00:10:56] Ilyse: Totally. Um, now personal politics aside, [00:11:00] what advice would you share with Biden's team and Trump's team? Where's the gap in each of their campaigns as, as it stands? 

[00:11:07] Mark: Well, but I would really tell both of them the same thing.

[00:11:10] Uh, you know, I try to explain to people the math of swing voting, that if an election is 5 5 and it switches, one person switches, it becomes 6 4. Now, it takes two people in turnout to equal one person who switches. So, getting switchers is really the most powerful thing in politics. And getting switchers means appealing to people who don't agree with you, right?

[00:11:36] And so what I would say is get out of the politics of the base. Get into the politics of switchers. Reach out to the people who don't agree with you. Try to find compromises, uh, in policy that brings them in. And whoever does that most successfully will not only win, but we'll win in a landslide. And if alternatively they appeal only to their base, they may win.

[00:11:57] They may lose, but they will not have changed the 50, [00:12:00] 50 nature of the, of the country. 

[00:12:04] Damian: Now, You know, you're known as a sage advisor. What's the best advice you've ever received? Yeah, 

[00:12:11] Mark: well the best advice I ever received was at an elevator In which in which In which a guy told me he was a he was he was a stock analyst And he said, buy Amazon.

[00:12:33] He said, sell every other stock you have and buy Amazon because they will be the future of retailing. And this was like when Amazon was a peanut, I of course thought the guy was a nutcase.

[00:12:48] And so I did not follow that advice. Uh, I would say that, that though, seriously, the, um, You know, I've worked for a lot of incredible people and, and, and [00:13:00] I always try to pick up kind of, kind of what they do best, right. And, and, you know, I worked with president Clinton and president Clinton was just amazing at, at synthesis.

[00:13:10] You would, you would throw incredibly complex things at, at him and he would fit them all into, into pieces or, you know, or I worked, you know, with Steve Ballmer, who's a core investor. And I just thought he was like, I didn't understand how he had 110, 000 people and went home. Uh, and how his time management was so radically different than, than mine.

[00:13:31] So I always try to pick up things from whomever, whomever I worked with. Uh, and to see like, what's the special thing, some of the special things that, that really work well. Fascinating. Now Stagwell is no stranger to growth or acquisitions. And 

[00:13:47] Damian: what does the future hold for Stagwell? 

[00:13:50] Mark: Well, you know, I always explain, we started Stagwell eight years ago, you know, at zero.

[00:13:55] We're about two and a half billion in revenue now. We [00:14:00] continue to expand out, you know, globally and also globally. You know, building a series of tech, uh, of tech products. Uh, I feel that we're a teenager now, you know, we were a baby two or three years ago and, and, and we've got, we're, we're really now coming on as a challenger network, uh, and we're going to continue to challenge, but we think we have a lot of growth, a lot of growth ahead of us.

[00:14:23] Ilyse: Now there's a lot of things affecting the industry. A lot of major topics that are being discussed nonstop. What is your prediction for the end of 2020? 2024 and into 2025. 

[00:14:36] Mark: Look, I think this is going to be a good year for marketing. It's going to be 12 billion spent on politics. So that's always helpful, uh, to, to, you know, and, uh, and, you know, I think we have a, we have a good, you know, uh, We have several companies that are in the political space.

[00:14:52] Uh, I think that, that advertising is growing, uh, generally. I think 20, I think tech companies [00:15:00] have a lot of work to do in terms of the competition now that's, uh, that's occurring on who's going to really dominate in AI, if anybody, or how are people going to have different flavors of AI. So I think there's a lot of exciting stuff going on.

[00:15:14] I think 23 was a year I couldn't wait for it to finish. You know, it was not the year that we were hoping for. But 24, you know, sitting here in mid year, it's looking good.

[00:15:23] Damian: And that's it for this edition of The Current Podcast.

[00:15:26] We'll be back next week, so stay tuned.

[00:15:29] Ilyse: The Current Podcast's theme is by Love Caliber. The current team includes Cat Fessy and Sydney Cairns.

[00:15:35] Damian: Cairns. And remember, 

[00:15:36] Mark: A lot of companies have a huge hole in their media buy. And that hole is news.

[00:15:43] Damian: I'm Damian.

[00:15:43] Ilyse: I'm Ilyse.

[00:15:44] Damian: And we'll see you next time. And if you like what you hear, please subscribe and leave us a review. Also, tune in to our other podcast, The Current Report