The Dad & Daughter Connection

If you're a dad looking to build a stronger bond with your daughter, the latest episode of the Dad and Daughter Connection podcast is a can't-miss listen. Hosted by Dr. Christopher Lewis, this episode features a heartfelt conversation with Alex Greenwood, father of an almost 17-year-old daughter, who opens up about the everyday realities, challenges, and rewards of being a present and engaged dad.

The Power of "Hey, Dad" Moments

One of the episode's core themes is the importance of creating and treasuring meaningful moments—sometimes in the simplest ways. Alex shares about his "hey dad" moments, where his daughter pops downstairs to sit and talk, checking in on him and sharing her world. These moments, whether brief or lasting for hours, have become the heartbeat of their connection. As Alex says, "these conversations can last anywhere from 20 minutes to two hours… and we talk about everything." These authentic check-ins remind us that genuine connection isn't built in grand gestures—it's nurtured in consistency and willingness to simply be available.

Balancing Guidance and Independence

Another central theme is the delicate balance between guiding and giving independence. Alex describes the challenge of working demanding hours, yet prioritizing availability for his daughter, whether it's teaching her to change windshield wiper fluid or sending a supportive text on a long workday. He emphasizes that, especially with teens, "availability" is key—not forcing connection, but being there when she seeks it.

Intentional Parenting: Preparing for Life's Realities

Alex and his wife have been intentional about preparing their daughter not for control, but for independence. They've communicated their evolving roles—from "bosses" when she was young, to "supervisors" during college, and eventually "consultants" and "friends." Through practical life lessons—whether teaching financial literacy through a make-your-own business project or discussing the realities of loss—they empower her with resilience, critical thinking, and empathy.

Conversations that Matter

The episode doesn't shy away from tough topics: discussing impermanence and loss, embracing vulnerability, and fostering trust through honest communication. Alex reminds fellow dads to "give yourself permission to be human" and always talk to your kids with respect.

Listen to Grow as a Dad

If you're seeking real-life stories, practical tips, and inspiration for meaningful father-daughter connections, tune in to this episode of the Dad and Daughter Connection podcast. Be reminded that being the dad your daughter needs is about showing up, growing together, and cherishing the journey—bumps, laughs, and all.

Listen now at dadanddaughterconnection.com, and start building those memorable moments today.

If you enjoyed this episode we ask you to take a moment to take our Dad and Daughter Connection Survey to let us know more about you as a dad. You can also sign up to get our newsletter to stay connected to our community and we will send items of interest to you to help you to be the dad that you want to be. Feel free to follow me on the following social media platforms: Facebook, Facebook Group, Instagram, LinkedIn, X.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:02]: Welcome to the dad and Daughter Connection, the podcast for dads who want to build stronger bonds and raise confident, independent daughters.

Alex Greenwood [00:00:12]: If you're looking to build a stronger bond with your daughter and help her grow into a confident, independent woman, you're in the right place. I'm Dr. Christopher Lewis, and the dad and Daughter Connection is the podcast where we dive into real stories, expert advice, and practical tips to help you navigate the incredible journey of fatherhood. In every episode, we'll bring you conversations that inspire, challenge, and equip you to show up as the dad your daughter needs. So let's get started, because being a great dad isn't just about being there. It's about truly connecting. Welcome back to the dad and Daughter Connection. Really excited to have you back again this week.

Alex Greenwood [00:00:56]: As always, every week, you and I are on a journey together. We are working our tail off trying to build these amazing relationships that we want to have with our daughters one step at a time. And I'll tell you, it's not always going to be easy. There's going to be bumps in the roads and you have to be able to sometimes be humble and know if you make mistakes, you're going to pick yourself back up and keep going. And it's so important that not only that you know that, but it's so important that you're willing to learn, to grow and to listen, because there are so many individuals around us that are fathering in different ways, and there is no one right way to father. That's why this podcast exists, because every week I love being able to bring you different people with different experiences that are fathering their children in different ways and they can bring some perspective for you to consider for yourself. Doesn't mean you're going to take everything that you're going to hear on every episode and turn it into something that you're going to use today. But it provides you with some tools for your toolbox to allow for you to be able to consider different things and maybe make some adjustments along the way that'll help you to be the dad that you want to be.

Alex Greenwood [00:02:12]: This week we got another great guest. Alex Greenwood is with us, and Alex is the father of an almost 17 year old. He's. And I'm really excited to be able to have him here for him to share some of his own experiences as a father. Alex, thanks so much for being here today.

Alex Greenwood [00:02:26]: Chris, it's a pleasure to be here. Thank you.

Alex Greenwood [00:02:28]: It is my pleasure. Really excited to be able to talk with you today and to. And to Delve a little bit deeper into your relationship with your daughter. And this podcast is all about connection. So I guess first and foremost, one of the things that I'd love to ask you is all of us are on are in a journey of trying to do what we can to be able to build meaningful moments. Meaningful moments that you and I can create with our, with our kids, that they can take with them. Think back to one of those meaningful moments. What is one of the most meaningful moments that you've shared with your daughter thus far and what made it so special?

Alex Greenwood [00:03:04]: I am always just surprised is the wrong word. Amaze is too strong a word. But I'm always so energized by and I feel so wonderful. And it's a very simple thing, Chris. It's not some life changing, earth shattering thing, but I have a little. It's not really a man cave. It's just a place where I go, it's downstairs and I got a TV and I got a place to read and that kind of thing. And I go down there just because I have a job.

Alex Greenwood [00:03:28]: I work in communications at a university. I have 12 hour days, I talk to people all day and I have a long commute. So I get to a point where when I finally get home, sometimes I just want to go down there and just recharge a little on my own. I'm one of those ambiverts. I mean, I'm not an introvert by any means, but I do have to charge the batteries a little bit. And sometimes I, I just go down and contemplate and all that. And my daughter, who, her name's Caroline and she's going to be 17 next year, but she's done this thing for a long time. And you know teenagers, I know you have kids that are a little older than that and you know how it is with them, especially in the teenage years, they just get to a point where it's not that they don't love you anymore or don't want to be around you, but they're doing what they're supposed to do.

Alex Greenwood [00:04:05]: They're starting to kind of break away and become more independent. So sometimes I find myself missing her quite a bit, but I don't burden her with that. Right? I don't do, do that. That's not fair to her. Don't make her feel guilty for doing what she's supposed to do. So it's just interesting. She has this wonderful habit of every now and then popping downstairs, sitting in a chair across from me and saying, hey, dad. And I'm like, well, hey, kid, what's up? I call her kid.

Alex Greenwood [00:04:29]: I've always called her kid. She's my only child. And she just asks me about how I'm doing. She's like, I just want to check in with you. How you doing? And what I realized, and I call these hey dads now, by the way, but I realize the hey dads are not really just her wanting to hear how I'm doing and. But it's also her way of saying a couple of things. One, I miss you, dad. And two, I want to tell you what's going on in my life.

Alex Greenwood [00:04:53]: And that's what we do. These conversations can last anywhere from 20 minutes to two hours. And we talk about everything. And I mean everything. Books she's reading, the TV shows she likes music she loves. Taylor Swift, of course, The Mighty Chiefs, our football team here. You know, speaking of Taylor Swift, we'll talk about relationship. We'll talk about her grandparents.

Alex Greenwood [00:05:14]: Chris it's how I feel like I might have actually been doing a pretty decent job as a dad, is that she enjoys speaking with me. And I'm not saying she happens. It doesn't happen every day, but it happens more than enough for me to feel very blessed. And I don't know if that sounds like anything all that interesting to folks, but for me, it's just about everything.

Alex Greenwood [00:05:32]: No, it's so important, especially as they get older and if they're still checking in with you, still willing to talk to you, and especially as they get into those upper teen years. I'm not saying that to scare people, because it's not the same with every kid. And with some kids, teenage years can be easygoing, and then other kids could be harder. But if you have put the time and effort in. In raising your child through the years and built that solid relationship with them along the way, them coming back to you and being willing to continue talking to you, being willing, engage with you, and keeping you as a part of their world is so important. Now, you talked about the fact that you work a ways away from home, so you're balancing a lot. You're balancing going to work and coming home and trying to still maintain that connection with her and keeping that balance. So talk to me about balance.

Alex Greenwood [00:06:30]: And how do you balance not only all of the things that you're trying to do, but how do you also balance guiding your daughter while also giving her that independence that you want her to have to be able to grow into the person that she's become becoming?

Alex Greenwood [00:06:42]: It's a Real balancing act. And first of all, I'm an older Dad. I was 40 when she was born and so I'm not as spry as I used to. I take care of myself. I work out. My days are averaging 12 hours because I drive about 82 miles each way four days a week to work. I get one work from home day which I can usually take if you put in a 10 hour workday, that's about a 12, 12 and a half hour workday. And when I, by the time I get home I'm pretty tired.

Alex Greenwood [00:07:06]: Yet I still manage to. I run a couple of my own podcasts, I write a substack column, I'm working on another book. I find time to do a lot of stuff. But the main thing is though is to develop that availability to my daughter when she, so that she can come talk to me anytime or she can text me or sometimes just, just a connection on texting. She started her first job this summer and she's, she's just loving it. She's loving to be able to raise her own money and buy the things she wants to buy and, and I've been so proud of her about that. And what's interesting is like yesterday, you know, today's as we record this Chris, today's their first day of school for junior year in high school and she's got a hand me down car I gave her. It's 11 year old car and she loves it and she takes care of it.

Alex Greenwood [00:07:50]: And I showed her how to. Yesterday I showed her how to change the wall, the windshield wiper fluid. It's finding moments like that where it may not be all day, it may just be touches like that. A good text and I'll text her. I'm not gonna lie. I text her sometimes and I just say, hey kid, I love you. I hope you hope you're having a great day. Or if I have to work, particularly Thursday, it's going to be about a 15, 16 hour day.

Alex Greenwood [00:08:11]: I am not going to see her Thursday night. I will text her at some point, maybe a goofy picture of me at work and just say thinking about you. Hope everything's going great. So for me it's about being available and understanding that particularly at this age where my kid is at least I have to be available to her when she feels that need to connect with me. And that's okay. That really is okay. Because when you think back to when your kids were so little, I still remember my kid coming up to me and saying she's four, will you play with me. And I was running my own business back then.

Alex Greenwood [00:08:43]: I was working a lot of hours then too. But I did have the wherewithal to know because I had a. My dad didn't necessarily play with us all that much. But I realized this is important to this kid. She doesn't have any siblings. I'm here. Let's do that. So that's how it evolves, I think for me, I don't know if I answered your question very effectively, but it's availability.

Alex Greenwood [00:09:01]: It's those touches. No matter how busy you get, remember the one reason you are working so hard is to provide for her. And that's what I'm doing. And she plans on attending the university where I work. And she's going to get a nice break on her tuition. So it's worth it for me when I'm driving all that way. And I miss her a little bit more than I'd like to, knowing that one, I'll see her a lot more when she comes to university here. I'll go to lunch with her at least once a week.

Alex Greenwood [00:09:25]: I told her that. And two, it'll save her the burden of worrying about student loans too much.

Alex Greenwood [00:09:30]: You're lucky because I work in higher ed as well and neither of my daughters want to come to the university where I go to where I work. So. So they're not getting the tuition benefit that your daughter's getting. So I say that in jest, but it's great to be able to have her be. To take that advantage of that. Not only for her, but really for you too, because it again, allows for you to keep that connection.

Alex Greenwood [00:09:51]: I know she's an extraordinarily pragmatic person and she's so different from her mother and I, which is. I'm so glad she's a jock. She's a talented athlete. She's also makes like a 3.8 on average. She's been accepted into an accelerated medical professionals program. She wants to be a nurse. She knows who she is and she's a kind person and pragmatic and also understands that money doesn't grow on trees. She's an only child being raised by her mother, who's an only child.

Alex Greenwood [00:10:17]: I was one of four, but I was kind of the middle. And I think that one reason our daughter's like that is she was raised by two adults and we never talked baby talk to her. We never talked down to her. We talked to her like a little human. We didn't talk to her like an adult, but we talked to her like a little human, you know what I mean? And she's always been extraordinarily verbal and had good verbal skills, which has impressed people. And I think another thing she learned, too, her old man was an old politician. So I taught her, like when she was about 8, how to shake hands with people. And I said, you extend your hand, you look them in the eye, and you use their name and you say, chris, it is lovely to meet you.

Alex Greenwood [00:10:51]: I'm Caroline, and I've seen her do this. Speaking of my dad, we lost my dad in January and we had to go to Oklahoma for the funeral. And she met all these extended family she didn't really know. Second cousins, third cousins, uncles, aunts, great aunts, you know, all those folks that. You know what I mean? You're a kid, you have no idea who they are. And she did that without fail. And I can't tell you how many of my cousins came up and said, good Lord, that young lady, she just walks right up and shakes your hand, looks you in the eye. And I'm so proud of something like that, that.

Alex Greenwood [00:11:20]: Because that's a skill she can use. When I say it's a skill, it's a skill, though, that is indicative of somebody who is a young person who is confident and wants to engage. And I just couldn't be happier with that.

Alex Greenwood [00:11:32]: It's such a great skill to be able to have, especially going into a helping profession where you're going to be having to interact with so many different people. And it's definitely a skill that all of us should work to help our kids to be able to is making those connections with others and building those intentional connections with others. Speaking of intentionality, talk to me about what you do to intentionally let your daughter know that she is being valued and heard.

Alex Greenwood [00:12:01]: Well, if I could, I'll take a step back and tell you a little bit about how my wife and I have been parenting Caroline. And one of the things my wife, Stephanie and I decided early on was that parenting isn't about control. It's about preparing your child to stand on her own. And again, I'm an older parent. I am not going to be around, likely for 60 more years, for sure. 50, doubt it. 40, maybe. But the point being, a lot of folks whose parents are younger, they're going to have more time with, God willing.

Alex Greenwood [00:12:27]: So I decided early on we decided that parenting isn't about control. It's about repairing your child to stand on her own. And so we told Caroline from the time she was very little that for the first part of her life. Your mom and I are your boss now. When you get a little older and you get into college, we're not necessarily your boss. We're more like your supervisor. We're here if you need us, but we still control the purse strings. You know, we have your paycheck, so to speak, and all that, and we expect you to do certain things, but we're not watching you every minute of the day, telling you what you can, can't do, what to eat and all that kind of thing like you do with a baby or a little, little kid.

Alex Greenwood [00:12:57]: So college, we hope to be like her supervisors, still keeping an eye on her, but letting her take the lead. So then when she graduates and gets a job, we want to become her consultants. And hopefully, as life goes on, we'll be blessed to be her friends from that point. So along that way, we've tried to her with some core values. Respect for herself and others. Curiosity and critical thinking are huge with us. Kindness and resilience. She's a very talented, very strong athlete.

Alex Greenwood [00:13:24]: But she's also realizing as she gets older, she probably isn't going to walk onto the university volleyball team. She's good, but she's probably not going to do that. And she's fine with it. She knows how the world works in that regard, and she doesn't take it too hard. And it seems to be working so far, pretty well, this way of raising her and watching her grow into what I believe is a thoughtful, capable young adult who lives those values in her own way. And that's just been one of the greatest privileges of my life, is to realize that. So that's some of the things we've done to get her ready for life and for her to understand what we expect of her. I'll just tell you one more little quick anecdote that makes me very proud of her.

Alex Greenwood [00:14:02]: She'd be so embarrassed if she knew I was talking about her and telling everybody this stuff, but I'm proud of her. And she had a friend in elementary school, a little boy, and he had an arm that didn't quite work right, and he was a little awkward. And she would tell us about him and how he. Nobody would sit with him at lunch, so she would sit with him at lunch, and then some other kids started pushing him around, tried to beat him up, and she just jumped right in the middle of it all and said, back off, you're not doing this. And I'm just. That, that right there, that kind of empathy and that kind of kindness look at the world we live in. I mean, we need people like that. We need generations of people who will step up and say, that's not right.

Alex Greenwood [00:14:37]: And so that's, that's the instruction we've given. Because again, I hark back to this. Again, I don't like to sound morbid, like I'm going to die tomorrow, God forbid, but I'm not going to be there to protect her forever. And so I like the idea that she's confident and hopefully she'll find a mate who will be supportive of her and accent that and accentuate that and have family of her own where she can pass those values on. That's the most important thing to me.

Alex Greenwood [00:15:03]: All of us have to have those type of conversations, whether your child's an only child or they have siblings that are going to be there, because you never know. You never know what will happen. And you need to have those kind of meaningful conversations. So talk to me about how you and your wife have been preparing her. And if a father is hearing this and says, you know, we haven't had any of these conversations, but I feel like we should start some of these conversations and start preparing our own child for that. Where should someone start?

Alex Greenwood [00:15:32]: Well, I could give you a practical thing. Would that work for you? One thing during the pandemic. So that would have put her. What was that about three or four years ago, she wanted to start her own mail order era earring business. She was going to make her own earrings and sell them. And long story short, we thought, this is a teachable moment here. Let's teach her about how commerce works, about how that is. And she's like, mom, Dad, I know how to make these.

Alex Greenwood [00:15:54]: And she's made some stuff. They're kind of nice earrings. And we said, look, you need capital, though, to, to buy more stuff, to make more earrings and to market these earrings on your website and all that. She goes, yeah. And she said, well, you give me the money. I said, well, no, I won't give you the money, but your mother and I will invest in you. So we set this whole thing up and we, we even had her draw up a stock certificate for us that we had stock in her company. Forgive me, I forget the name of the company, but, and get this, she got really excited.

Alex Greenwood [00:16:21]: We taught her what that meant, what investing meant. And then when the pandemic started to let up, there's a local farmer's market and we, we applied to get her a booth at the local farm. So every Saturday, she'd go down there and sell these things. And she would pay us back out of what she earned for the materials she bought. Of course, we put that money in her college fund, but she doesn't know that. Don't tell her. But anyway, we taught her how to do that. And so that was a lesson we taught her.

Alex Greenwood [00:16:45]: So now she has a kind of understanding how investing works and how. Kind of an understanding how stocks and bonds kind of work. We try to explain that to her, but also what we're teaching her are other financial lessons. Okay, I need her to understand how money works. And having a job, by the way, has been very instructive of that. She's had her first job and she gets it. And she understands taxes and the anguish of taxes. But I try to explain to her that taxes are kind of the price you pay to live in a civilized country.

Alex Greenwood [00:17:10]: You're not going to always want to pay them. You're not going to love them. Sometimes they're going to be too high, sometimes they're going to be whatever. But they're important part of making the country what it is. And so she understands that. So we try to teach her about that and let her understand a credit card, what those are and how dangerous and treacherous those can be. We try to let her know, too, that just, you know, she. You know the old joke about, you know, you hear this all the time, oh, well, I must have more money.

Alex Greenwood [00:17:32]: I still have checks, but they don't even use checks anymore, so that's not even useful. But we teach her those kinds of practices, practical lessons, how to change a tire, what to do if you feel like if you're out in the car and you feel threatened by somebody, use your phone, find the nearest police station or the nearest public place. Just little things like that. But before anybody thinks I'm some kind of weirdo who just constantly tells her everything's awful in the world, I don't. But I want to prepare her for the fact that not everybody is always going to have your best interests at heart, that you got to pay attention, keep, as I've said to her many times, keep your head on a swivel, pay attention to your surroundings. Those kind of little lessons, I think, have helped to make her as confident as she is and is helping to make her resilient and confident. And I think she doesn't fear the world. I think she's excited to get out there and see the world.

Alex Greenwood [00:18:18]: And I think a lot of that is that we didn't baby her. She understood that she had to work to move forward in the world. And that doesn't mean we don't spoil her a little bit. Of course we do. We adore her. She's our child. But we try to make sure she understands those basic things. It's really not some kind of magic formula.

Alex Greenwood [00:18:32]: It's just something that seems to be working for us to do these kinds of practical.

Alex Greenwood [00:18:37]: I love that because I think, you know, those practical things and getting her to be able to understand it in that way is something that she's going to always remember and it's something that she will take with her no matter where she goes. So it is definitely something that I think others can also put into action and try for themselves. Now, you talked about not being morose, and you talked about the fact that you may be here for 30, 40 more years, but then at some point you are going to pass on. And that's not always an easy conversation to have with a child is to talk about the fact that all of us are mortal. We're not all going to be here forever. And there's always that first time where they impact death for the first time. So talk to me about beyond the practical nature of preparing her to stand on her own, having those conversations that are hard. And give me some examples of how you've had those type of conversations with your daughter and how you started those and how you continue those.

Alex Greenwood [00:19:34]: Well, as I mentioned, I lost my dad unexpectedly. He was a distracted driver of injuries from that event eventually killed him. And so we knew he wasn't doing great for a few weeks. And my daughter and her mother, I couldn't get away from work. I'd seen him on my own, but they went down to Oklahoma to see him. And he was alert and talking to her and. And she came back and I. She was quiet about it.

Alex Greenwood [00:19:57]: And she said, dad, I. I don't know how pop's doing. I said, he's not doing great, kid, but it's important to him that you came down there to see him. And I didn't broach. I didn't have to. I think she intuited that he was not doing so great. And then he got Covid. That was the end.

Alex Greenwood [00:20:12]: He couldn't fight Covid after that. The point being, when we lost him, I found out I was at work and I had to drive 85 miles before I could get home and tell her. And I came home and tell her and she just. She fell apart. But it was not the first death she had experienced. One of her best friends was killed in A car wreck when she was about 8 years old, 9 years old. So she understands the impermanence of life. She understood it unfortunately, pretty early, but.

Alex Greenwood [00:20:34]: And she cared about her friend, don't get me wrong, but to lose your papa, your grandfather. I think that I could see a change in her. And I hope this doesn't sound strange, Chris, but, you know, I mentioned going to the funeral and being very mature, and I was. I'm not gonna lie, I wasn't. I was a wreck. And I've been the eulogist at several family things, as you could probably tell. I don't have a problem talking, but I couldn't do it with my dad. And I wrote up a little essay and I asked her, would it be okay if you read it? And I said, you can feel free to say no, it's a lot of pressure to put on you, but if you could get up in front of everybody and read it.

Alex Greenwood [00:21:06]: She didn't blink. She says, I'll do it, dad. And she got it and read it and she did a beautiful job. She held it together. And when she was walking to sit down, some weird was like. It was like at a concert, somebody said something like, bravo, young lady, or really well done or something, you know, just called that out to her. And I realized that she really had. In just those few short weeks since he was injured, I saw her grow up a little bit and realized the.

Alex Greenwood [00:21:30]: About that impermanence. And so we've had regular discussions about when her mother and I are gone. She asked me the other day, she said, dad, it's occurred to me that, you know, I'm getting ready to go to college in a couple of years. And I know it's not my business to know all about the family finances at this point, but how are we going to pay for that? I know that I'll get your tuition break and all that, but what about extras? Will we be able to afford for me to have a dorm room? And, you know, she's starting to ask these questions and she doesn't ask them out of any kind of other thing than she's starting to realize I'm not a kid anymore. I'm going to be making a transition into a different part of my life soonish. And I think the fact that we've never sugarcoated stuff because she'd asked me when she was a kid, what happens when we die. I said, I don't know, I don't know. She says, what about religion? I said, if religion helps you, absolutely.

Alex Greenwood [00:22:17]: I went through a phase where the family. We went to church and I was an elder in my church. I don't go anymore. It's not something I'm all that interested in anymore. But I told her, go anytime or I'll take you. And she would go with her friends. I don't know if it made much of an impression on her either. And I could hear religious people out there groaning.

Alex Greenwood [00:22:32]: But it's like, you know, I can't force her. When I was a kid, I was kind of forced to go to church and I hated it. And I just told her, I'm not going to force you to do that, but I'm going to definitely expose you to it. I want you to see it, I want you to feel it. So I guess what I'm trying to say here, Chris, and again, pardon me for just going on, but is just that we tried to offer her the opportunity to experience things. We rarely say no to something unless it could be dangerous. We let her meet people, we let her go do things. We try to answer her questions.

Alex Greenwood [00:22:59]: But you remember what I said earlier, We've always just kind of talked to her a lot, like a little person. Well, we just feel like we're paying her the compliment of her intellect and her personhood to just tell it straight the way we know it. I don't get, you know, brusque about it or anything like that. And I, I don't get all worked up about it. And it seems to work for us. It's just, it's just honesty and being candid. If I were to grow up again, I would appreciate straight talk to my folks.

Alex Greenwood [00:23:20]: And so many of our folks didn't have those type of conversations with us. So I think our generation are definitely doing a lot better than our own parents did or their parents did before them. And that's a broad generalization because some of our parents did a great job and continue to do a great job if they're still in our lives, in preparing for the inevitability of life and. But what I'm hearing you say, Alex, is we can do even better. And that the more that we can prepare our kids in a non morose way, the better they're going to be able to prepare for it themselves and stand alone or stand together in that time. That is challenging.

Alex Greenwood [00:24:02]: Chris, I really do believe that this has also made her appreciate the moments that she has with her mother and I and her grandparents, her living grandparents. She has said to me that all the time we've done certain things, gone on trips or some Things have happened. And she said, I'm going to. Basically said, I'm going to try to hold on to this. I want to remember this. So I think we've managed accidentally through all of this to set a stage for her to say, this is your journey on this earth, we're here to help, or your consultants, et cetera. We're going to be here for a while and then it's on you to do this. But I appreciate that she has picked up on the fact that the impermanence is a factor.

Alex Greenwood [00:24:35]: And I've always told her I've done a lot of stuff in my life. Her mother's very successful in what she's done. I failed more than I succeeded. I have. I could bore you with all these things I've tried in my life that I completely failed at. But she knows about most of it and she's told me before. She says, I just love dad. That you tried, that you're out there.

Alex Greenwood [00:24:51]: I said, I was never picked for the ball team. If I got to play, I was on the C team. I was the Bad News Bears team and I wasn't even any good. But the point was I tried. Did you play T ball and Little League at all? I always got money. Ghost spirited player at the end of every season, which is not mvp, folks. And I told her, you gotta try, kid. I always tell her that you gotta get out there.

Alex Greenwood [00:25:11]: And throughout her life I've just said, what's it gonna hurt you to try?

Alex Greenwood [00:25:15]: Now we always finish our interviews with what I like to call our dad Connection six, where I ask you six more questions that delve a little bit deeper into you as a dad. Are you ready?

Alex Greenwood [00:25:23]: Sure.

Alex Greenwood [00:25:24]: What's one word that describes your relationship with your daughter?

Alex Greenwood [00:25:28]: Trust.

Alex Greenwood [00:25:29]: What's the best piece of dad advice you've ever received?

Alex Greenwood [00:25:33]: Oh, wow, that's a tough one, Chris. I think the best dad advice I ever got was with my uncle. And he just, he was like a kindly favorite uncle type. He was just like. He basically said, don't talk down to your kid. Basically because he was my, one of my uncles who I adored and, and he, he never talked down to me. And I always remembered when Uncle Robert talked to me, I always felt special. And I was one of 22 grandchildren.

Alex Greenwood [00:25:55]: But I always felt like Uncle Robert thought I was the only person in the room when he talked to me. So that's the best advice was don't talk down to your kid. Make them feel good. Look them in the eye, talk to them.

Alex Greenwood [00:26:03]: What's one Activity that you and your daughter love doing together.

Alex Greenwood [00:26:06]: We used to love, when she was little, we'd go to, like, Starbucks. I'd get her a chocolate milk and a cake pop. And now that's moved up to, like, going to get a cheeseburger. I love just going to lunch with her, just she and I, and just doing more of that. Hey, dad, more of that talking. I just love doing that with her. Just, just love it.

Alex Greenwood [00:26:21]: If you could give your daughter one life lesson in a single sentence, what would it be?

Alex Greenwood [00:26:26]: In the great casino of life, don't put all your chips in the center of the table and go all in in your twenties, you'll regret it.

Alex Greenwood [00:26:32]: What's one thing you've learned about yourself since becoming a dad?

Alex Greenwood [00:26:36]: You know that movie Jack Nicholson did years ago, and there's that great line, and he says, you make me want to be a better man. Something like that. Before I met her mother. Her mother and I've been together, all told, about 20 years. And I had a lot of, of relationships that didn't work real well. Not until then, anyway. The point being, I don't think I knew how to be. Don't get me wrong, I was a good person, but I don't think I met my capacity or my potential for kindness.

Alex Greenwood [00:27:04]: I think I got into a bit where I felt like every time I was kind to somebody that took advantage of me. So I kind of decided, well, maybe that's not what to do. And my wife was the first person to kind of start to peel away that veneer. And then, man, the moment I'm standing behind my wife while they did the C section, I lifted my baby out of there. It all. I changed. I know that's so cliche. Everybody says that, but I, Chris, I did.

Alex Greenwood [00:27:25]: I changed so, so much when I was the first one to hold her. And she has made me a better man. Caroline, my daughter has. She has absolutely done that. I don't want to do anything that she would be disappointed in me in.

Alex Greenwood [00:27:38]: And finally, what advice would you give to other dads who want to build a lasting and meaningful relationship with their daughters?

Alex Greenwood [00:27:46]: Guys, don't be too hard on yourself. Chris said this early on, we're going to make mistakes. We're going to say dumb things. We're going to be tired and cranky. But here's the thing. You're not going to believe this, but I, I, well, I don't believe in corporal punishment first, but that's, that's not a big deal these days. I hope I've Never really even raised my voice at my daughter. I don't yell at her when I'm disappointed in her, I tell her.

Alex Greenwood [00:28:05]: But there's been moments when I've been sharp with her here and there. So few moments, by the way, that I still remember each one of them, like, just a handful. And I think you've got to give yourself permission to be human to your daughter and to your kid to apologize when you're sharp with them and say, hey, I just had a bad day. I was tired. I. And without fail, every time I've done that, those few times in my life where I've been cross with her or sharp with her, she's like, dad, it's all right, man. You were having a bad day. It's okay.

Alex Greenwood [00:28:30]: By the way, if you want, I could tell you my kid can annoy me just like yours can. I mean, just so you know, she's not perfect, but she spends too much money on clothes. But I don't care that much about that. But I just. So I. I feel, like, bad. Like I'm just sitting here telling you every positive, wonderful thing, you know, it's. Trust me.

Alex Greenwood [00:28:48]: She also really needs to clean her room. She just. She needs to.

Alex Greenwood [00:28:52]: I think all of us have those little things that get under our nerve, but in the end, we love them for who they are, even though they can irk us along the way.

Alex Greenwood [00:29:02]: Definitely, sir. Definitely.

Alex Greenwood [00:29:05]: Now, Alex, I just want to say thank you. Thank you so much for sharing your own journey today. And it is not over. It is just beginning and will continue into the future because being a dad never ends. And I just want to say thank you for your time today, for sharing your own journey, and I wish you all the best.

Alex Greenwood [00:29:21]: Chris, it's been my privilege to be here. And thank you to listeners for letting me go on and on about my daughter. Just. I hope everybody can find that wonderfulness in their own kid and just hopefully eventually go from being their boss to being their friend.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:29:34]: That's a wrap for this episode of the dad and Daughter Connection. Thanks for joining us on this journey to build stronger bonds and raise confidence. Independent daughters. Remember, being an engaged dad isn't about being perfect. It's about being present. If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe and share it with a fellow dad. And don't forget, you can find all our [email protected] until next time, keep showing up, keep connecting, and keep being the dad she needs.

Musical Outro Performer [00:30:05]: We're all in the same boat, and it's full of tiny screaming passengers we spend the time, we give the lessons we make the meals we buy them presents and bring your A game. Cause those kids are growing fast the time goes by just like a dynamite blast Calling astronauts and firemen Carpenters and musclemen get out and be the world to them Be the best dad you can be Be the best dad you can.

Raising confident, independent daughters in today's world is no small task. On the latest episode of the Dad and Daughter Connection podcast, Dr. Christopher Lewis sits down with Rick Guymon—a father of six (including three daughters)—to explore the joys and challenges of fatherhood and what it really means to connect with your kids.

From the outset, Rick's story is both moving and inspiring. He shares deeply personal moments, like his daughter's journey with leukemia and the isolation of the pandemic, that highlight how life can bring families together in unexpected ways. What stands out most in this conversation is Rick's commitment to being intentional as a dad. Whether it's through weekly one-on-one "interviews" with his children or setting aside family time each Monday night, Rick and his wife model the idea that strong relationships are built with time, attention, and care.

One meaningful theme from this episode is the idea of balancing guidance and independence. Rick believes in fostering agency in his daughters, allowing them to make their own decisions but grounding them with parental wisdom and support. He discusses how their family motto—"almost nothing matters, but God's children do"—guides their daily lives, reminding them to focus on what's truly important: each other and serving others.

Rick also opens up about mistakes he's made around perfectionism and the pressure to always get parenting right. He emphasizes the power of vulnerability—recognizing that nobody is perfect, and what matters most is loving your kids unconditionally. For Rick, it's been essential to let go of unrealistic expectations and simply be present, reassuring his daughters that there's nothing they could do to lose his or their heavenly parent's love.

Beyond the serious topics, the episode is filled with practical insights—like the benefits of spending time in nature as a family, creating traditions, and encouraging individual interests (from singing to salsa-tasting).

If you're a dad looking to build a meaningful connection with your daughter—or any parent hoping for fresh perspective—you won't want to miss this episode. Rick's wisdom and authenticity will encourage you to clear space in your life for what matters most: being present and intentional as you walk the journey of parenthood.

Tune in to the "Dad and Daughter Connection" for more real stories and actionable advice, and get inspired to be the dad your daughter needs.

If you enjoyed this episode we ask you to take a moment to take our Dad and Daughter Connection Survey to let us know more about you as a dad. You can also sign up to get our newsletter to stay connected to our community and we will send items of interest to you to help you to be the dad that you want to be. Feel free to follow me on the following social media platforms: Facebook, Facebook Group, Instagram, LinkedIn, X.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:02]: Welcome to the dad and Daughter Connection, the podcast for dads who want to build stronger bonds and raise confident, independent daughters.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:12]: If you're looking to build a stronger bond with your daughter and help her grow into a confident, independent woman, you're in the right place. I'm Dr. Christopher Lewis, and the dad and Daughter Connection is the podcast where we dive into real stories, expert advice, and practical tips to help you navigate the incredible journey of fatherhood. In every episode, we'll bring you conversations that inspire, challenge, and equip you to show up as the dad your daughter needs. So let's get started, because being a great dad isn't just about being there. It's about truly connecting. Welcome back to the dad and Daughter Connection, where every week we have a great opportunity. We have a great opportunity to connect together, to be a able to work together, to be able to go on this path together, because the journey that we are on is different.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:06]: Every one of us is going to have a little bit different journey as it comes to raising our daughters. But building those strong connections is so critical in being able to help our daughters to be the best people that we want them to be. And that's why this podcast exists. It exists to allow for you to learn, to grow, to be able to hear some different perspectives as well as be able to consider different ways of fathering, because there's no one right way to father your kids, and there's no manual that we've been given as our kids are born. So every week, I love being able to bring you someone new, someone different, that is parenting in a little bit different way that can give you some perspective, some different perspective on what fatherhood means and how they father their daughters to be able to build those strong connections. Today we got another great guest. Rick Gaiman is with us today. And Rick is a father of six, and he has three daughters and three sons.

Rick Guymon [00:02:10]: We'll focus a little more on those.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:11]: Daughters because of the show, but I am really excited to be able to talk with him today and to be able to allow for you to get to know him and to gain some perspective on some of the things that he's learned along the way. Rick, thanks so much for being here today.

Rick Guymon [00:02:28]: Oh, thanks so much for having me. It's great to be here. I love the opportunity to talk about being a dad. It's the best part of my life. So happy to be here.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:35]: Well, I'm really excited that you're here as well. And as I said, you've got three daughters, and with three daughters, you definitely have had some amazing moments, some moments that you've shared together. And I know you and I have talked about some of those. But as you think back and you think to those meaningful moments that you've shared with your daughters, what's one of the most meaningful moments that comes to.

Rick Guymon [00:02:57]: Mind and what made it so special as a family? We spend a lot of time together. So my third daughter, she's my fourth child in 2018, was diagnosed with leukemia, and she is all fine now and just hit her five years cancer free a couple of months ago. So we're super happy about that. But in 2018 was when she was diagnosed, and right at the end of her treatment was when Covid began. And so they were a little bit isolated prior to Covid. So when Covid came, we were good at this whole isolation thing. I had been working from home. We had all of these stipulations.

Rick Guymon [00:03:30]: We wore masks. And as a matter of fact, we went on a Make A Wish trip with our family. Make a Wish foundation sent us on a trip and they sent us out to Florida, and we were the last one before COVID began. So this is the beginning of March of 2020. And while we were on the airplane, I teased my wife a little bit while we were on the airplane. We were the ones wearing masks. She said, I wish wearing a mask was more normal on the way back from that tr. Wearing a mask was mandatory just two days later after that.

Rick Guymon [00:03:57]: So I teased her that, hey, you. You got what you wanted. But on that trip and all through the pandemic, we spent a lot of time as a family. I would say one of the most memorable moments for me was when my oldest daughter, who was eight years old at the time in 2018 when Tessa was diagnosed, so my oldest daughter Gracie, said, why can't it be me instead of her? Because Tessa also has down syndrome. So it was one of those situations where I saw my daughter be completely selfless in that mom. And I think what I realized is that, yes, my daughters are half me and half Mindy when you speak genetically. But I say they have just enough of me to keep them humble. And everything good they have is.

Rick Guymon [00:04:36]: Is from Mindy. And to watch. To watch my daughters become like their mother was one of the best things that I've ever seen. And so every moment where that happens to me, it's just gold as a dad. And it was one of those moments where when she said that, I thought she understands what life is about thanks to her mom.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:53]: Now I know that as A father of a daughter, there's this balancing g that you play in regards to working to help guide them, to help them to become who they are. But there's also that fine balance. So how do you balance guiding your daughters while also giving them the independence to grow into their own person?

Rick Guymon [00:05:15]: Yeah, that's. That's a really great question. I actually think it's a balance between agency and then a relationship. So we are firm believers that agency is the most important thing that we have, like being able to make our own choices and own those choices and. And go where we want to go. But then I also am a believer that our children want parents, not a set of older friends. They don't want someone to just validate all of their decisions, although they may say that what they really want, someone that says want is someone who says, hey, I love you no matter what. Let me tell you what experience has taught me.

Rick Guymon [00:05:48]: And so we spend every. Every Sunday, we actually have what we call interviews, where my wife and I sit on the bed in the master bedroom. And one child at a time, the other ones are just playing. Well, one of the kid at a time comes in and they get one on, I guess one on, two on one time, right? Where they can just talk to us. And we let them tell us their fears. We also go through their schedule and we give them a treat like it's a part of what we do. But then we say, hey, what's. What's on your mind? What questions do you have? We also spend about an hour every Monday night all together as a family.

Rick Guymon [00:06:17]: And that's scheduled, set apart time where we discuss religion or we have an activity and. Or usually both. Or we'll go for a bike ride and get ice cream. And so we try to show in our. In how we're filling up our time, how important they are to us. And I think the relationship. Relationships are built outside of the duty part of parenting. So.

Rick Guymon [00:06:36]: And that's why those moments are the ones that are so important to us where we just get to talk with them and let them just talk at us and really cherish those moments.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:45]: You just talked about some things that you're doing that seem very intentional that you and your wife do to be able to build those connections. So talk to me about intentional ways that you've worked to strengthen your bond with your daughters, especially during challenging times.

Rick Guymon [00:07:01]: One of the things that. That we believe is that there's no kind of hobby or talent that needs to be kept from them if it's a good thing Right. If it's good for them. So, for example, I love to woodwork, and I'm always working on some big project in our house. And right now, I've recently ripped down the fireplace on a whim, and it's now missing. And so now my wife looked at it and said, okay, we can have a new fireplace and move it from the corner to the center of the room, or. And this was her great idea, we can push the wall out. And now dining room.

Rick Guymon [00:07:32]: And so, of course, we're taking the much bigger project. And so what I do is intentionally we involve the kids. We recognize that our job isn't to make sure that they're having fun all the time. Our job is to create happy, contributing members of society that want. That learn to have fun, kind of regardless of the circumstances. Recognizing, you know, like Viktor Frankl talks about, that their attitude and their ability to adjust their attitude to the situation is the greatest piece of agency that they have. And so we are intentional about. They participate in yard work.

Rick Guymon [00:08:04]: They participate in weeding in the gardens and the flower beds and planting the gardens and mowing the lawn and doing these house projects with us. We feel. And they find, although they fight us in the beginning, when they do something difficult and do something worthwhile and valuable, that's when they find the greatest joy. So we're very intentional about how we spend time. One example is all growing up. I can't count the number of books probably that I've read to them as they go to bed. So I'll put them. Put them to bed.

Rick Guymon [00:08:32]: And we've read through them whole Harry Potter series and the Fable Haven, you know, depending on what their age was, and the full C.S. lewis Chronicles of Narnia, and just kind of all of these great. And then when they can read a chapter book, I buy them a regular Kindle, not the kind where you have different apps, but a reading Kindle because they wanted to share a room. And so I buy them a Kindle. I stock it with a bunch of books that I know that are quality and that teach good morals and good principles. And then I give them a Kindle to. As they go to bed at night, they continue to read. And so we.

Rick Guymon [00:09:02]: We. We find. We sit around the piano and we sing. We just. I know I've mentioned this to you, but our family motto is almost nothing matters but God's children do. And I think as a dad, that motto starts with my own family here. And then it expands to these people around me, and that gets bigger and bigger and Being intentional at every level of that, I guess stewardship, I think, is really critical.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:25]: And I'm going to come back to that motto, because I want to talk to you a little bit more about that motto in just a little bit too. Every one of us is not fallible. We make mistakes as dads, and we learn from those mistakes. So what's a mistake that you made as a father, and what did you learn from it about fostering positive connections with your daughters?

Rick Guymon [00:09:46]: Oh, good question. There are so many mistakes I've made. I would say one of them is a little bit built into my personality. For a long time, I think I struggled with scrupulosity. And for those that aren't familiar with that, it's just this. It's a perfectionism in how you're living, you know, what you feel is the gospel of Jesus Christ, right? So it's this moment where you say, I'm so focused on. On trying to be perfect. That.

Rick Guymon [00:10:11]: And then trying to juxtapose that with the fact that we're all fallible. And so I'm never going to be perfect. And that can just crush you. And it just becomes this crushing weight. And so I think for a long time I was sitting in a pocket of that. And so I think the thing that changed it for me was recognizing that because I'm fallible, there is no way for me, through my efforts to earn my way into heaven, I'll never deserve heaven. I'll never deserve all of the blessings that I have. I don't deserve my children.

Rick Guymon [00:10:39]: I don't deserve any of this. Life is unfair and almost always in my benefit. And so I need it to be unfair, or if it were fair, I would have a much worse life than I do. What that allowed me to do is have that same conversation. I think women and young women in the media and in everywhere are pressured so much to be perfect, to look perfect, to do, to have all of the talents and to. It's just such a huge pressure on them that when I recognize for myself that I could release that a little bit now, I could speak from experience to my daughters and say, hey, guess what? In the scheme of things, this doesn't matter. What matters is how you're treating other people. When my daughters go, you know, as they got, My oldest is 15 now, and then I have one that's 13 and one that's nine.

Rick Guymon [00:11:23]: And as they've gone into junior high and high school, talking to them about the idea that you don't have to dress like everybody else, to try to fit in. You don't like you're valuable as you are. It was amazing for me to realize and help them realize that it's not in the moments when I'm acting perfect or even doing really well that I recognize my value to God. It's in the moments when I make mistakes and when I recognize that I'm imperfect, that he was still willing to pay the price for me. And so that was the thing that was so cool for me was it's like, oh, it's in my weakness where I see how. Where I can recognize how valuable I am. And so being able to say to them, you're valuable no matter what, has been a really important thing, both for me personally and, I think for them as well. Watching them be able to just settle into who they are and recognize that they're enough as they are.

Rick Guymon [00:12:12]: And that my wife was a national champion ballet and jazz dancer. Really, really talented. And we don't put our kids in very much extracurriculars. We want them to live as kids first. They'll have plenty of time. And life isn't about becoming the best in the world at all of the things we do. And so just releasing some of that perfectionism that they were getting from me, that they were getting from the world, that they were getting from kind of all sides, I think was. Was one of those kind of critical mistakes that I was making.

Rick Guymon [00:12:41]: But as we've kind of overcome, that has made a huge difference in the relationship that I have with them. I expect them to try their hardest. I do not to be the best.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:49]: Now, I mentioned that I would come back, and I want to come back to the motto that you talked about. And I guess talk to me a little bit about how you developed that motto as parents to guide your family. And how do you find that that motto helps your whole family to come together as a whole, to move forward as a family?

Rick Guymon [00:13:12]: I would say that motto morphed over time. When they were really young kids, we encouraged them asking questions like why? Both about rules and also about our religion. And so we feel strongly that everybody at some point should be able to stand on their own in their beliefs, because you're going to be asked questions when I'm not there to give you an answer or. And I want them to think for themselves and follow what they feel is true and what they believe. So our original motto was obey first, ask questions later, so that we could tell them, hey, get out of the road. And then they knew. The motto was first, get out of the road, you can ask why, but when you see the car coming by now you'll understand why. And so we kind of got into this.

Rick Guymon [00:13:53]: I was just kind of, as I was mentioning where we noticed that there was after cancer and Covid and they were starting to go back to school. It was. There was just this heaviness in how do you keep up with all of these things in the world that are going on? And we actually homeschooled them for one extra year after Covid, so they didn't go back. So she left in Covid, our oldest daughter, in four, halfway through fourth grade and then didn't go back until seventh grade. And here that's when you start junior high in a new school. And so she went from innocent elementary to the three worst possible years, I think in most human beings lives of junior high and middle school, right, where there's just so much unknown. And she spent that first year eating lunch by herself. And it broke my heart, broke my wife's heart.

Rick Guymon [00:14:36]: And, And. And she is. She's. Gracie is just an amazing. An amazing human being. And so when it. Starting in eighth grade, we started to help her realize that if you're lonely, that usually is a symbol or sad that you need to reach out to somebody else. We found that when we were in our darkest moments of in the throes of cancer or Covid, it was then when we served somebody else that kind of let.

Rick Guymon [00:15:01]: Lifted us out of that. And so. So we. And that whole. You combine that piece with the whole kind of perfectionism that was happening. And we wanted them to realize that they did not need to be perfect. And that how you find joy is so much more about the focus where you're focusing, not about what's going on. And so there's a quote from one of our church leaders that happiness is much more about the focus of your lives than it is about the circumst of your lives.

Rick Guymon [00:15:25]: And so we wanted to combine those two things. And at first we were going to say something to the effect of only focus on what matters. But I thought that's. As Mindy and I talked and we were sitting around the table as a family coming up with this motto. And as we kind of discussed it, we said we actually want them to realize that there are a lot of good things that will bring that you can focus on. If you're looking at kind of a gradient of good or better or best, the options that you have, there's a gradient. And what we wanted to say is erase all of the the fluff and recognize that almost nothing matters, but the thing that does and the thing that will make you happy is serving God's children. So that's how it came up with almost nothing matters, but God's children do.

Rick Guymon [00:16:06]: And it focuses everything we do. The question is, okay, we're feeling a little down. Who can we serve? Or we're. I'm feeling lonely. Who can I reach out to? Where it kind of puts the onus on you to recognize that you get to pick the attitude to the circumstance. It's very similar to kind of the Mel Robbins book, which is let them. And I know that's a big kind of popular discussion point right now, which is, hey, everyone else has their agency, but you have yours. And you can choose to be happy, and you can choose to bring good and light into the world.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:32]: Now, I know that your family spends a lot of time outdoors, and being outdoors, being in nature, is something that helps to ground you and your family in many different ways. Talk to me a little bit about that. And why has nature been such a large part of the work that you're doing as a father?

Rick Guymon [00:16:52]: Father, yeah. You know, when you first get married and you both come from different families and you would spend finances differently, and that's kind of a big part of the discussion oftentimes. Right. Is in the. In the beginning of marriage. And that was definitely the case for Mindy and I. I'm the fifth of 11 children. She's the fourth of five, and I spent money on bicycles.

Rick Guymon [00:17:11]: I loved mountain biking. It was where, growing up for me, we lived really close to the mountains here in Utah, and I would hop on my bike at my house, and I could be in the mountains in about 15 minutes, and I'd mountain bike everywhere. And then I' come back. And this is from probably 1996 is when I kind of started mountain biking. So when we got married, I would always try to convince Mindy to come mountain biking with me. Now, she spent every afternoon in dance. That's what she did when she got home from school to when she basically went to bed. She'd come home, do a little bit of homework, and then go to bed.

Rick Guymon [00:17:42]: And so it took a little bit of convincing. We both, growing up, had spent some time in a place in southern Utah and northern Arizona called Lake Powell. You and I have talked about Lake Powell a little bit, but I always said that I feel like in Lake Powell, I can see God's imagination. And so I just feel more connected to God when I'm in nature. And There are myriad studies that talk about the benefits of brain chemistry and all of these other things when you're out in nature. And so when we first got married, and we'd been married probably, I don't know, 4ish years, I started spending money on some bikes. And this is a true story. We were on a.

Rick Guymon [00:18:16]: One of the things Mindy and I have done is we go on a date every week. So we still are courting each other and it's usually Fridays, so we put it in our budget, have a babysitter go on a date. On a date. And we were in this town and across the street from the diner we were eating at was a boutique that she really wanted to go to. Well, next door was my favorite bike shop. So we're on this date and I ran in and I knew the manager well. And every mountain bike ride or every bike ride we'd been on up to that point, Mindy hated it. She would be think of the wicked witch of the West.

Rick Guymon [00:18:42]: You know, we're going down this trail, her feet are off the pedals and they're out sideways and she's going off the path and just screaming. She hates it. So part of the reason was she had this really terrible bike. And I had been begging her. I'm like, the bike makes all the difference after about five or six times. And bless her heart for doing this with me many times where we'd start that way, she'd end up on my nice bike. I'd end up on this little piece of garbage. And she had a great time all of a sudden.

Rick Guymon [00:19:08]: And I'm like, okay, I'm noticing the correlation here, right? So she goes into the boutique. I said, oh, I'm just going to run next door to the bike shop and say hi to the manager who's a friend of mine. So I ran in there and I said, hey, I need this bike in this size and I need to buy it right now. Because I. So I bought a bike and I walked it to her and handed it to her inside the Boot Boutique in front of all the other ladies and said, hey, I just bought this for you. Because I knew she wouldn't get mad at me in that moment. And it worked. I mean, it was the perfect thing.

Rick Guymon [00:19:34]: And now Mindy and I spend. We'll do 37 mile bike rides together. And all through cancer, Biking was her therapy. She would go out, we have a trail through our neighborhood that goes for miles and miles. We'll do basically as far as you want to go. She would Just go on that trail and cry. And then she would come back and she'd be good for the day. And she would do that pretty much every single day.

Rick Guymon [00:19:55]: And so now as a family, sometimes we still do it. It often multiple times a week. Everyone has a bike. And not just a bike. We've spent money on these bikes. They're good bikes so that they can enjoy it and they're comfortable and we can go have these activities. She has a trailer on the back of hers for our youngest. And then I have one that has two seats that they can both kind of sit recumbently.

Rick Guymon [00:20:13]: I don't know if that's an adverb, but sit that way and kind of ride. And we typically for them have to say, hey, there's ice cream on the other side of this trail. And so that's how we kind of get them going. But we spend time time hiking and camping. And that's where we actually have spent kind of our disposable income when we do have it is on being outside together. And that's just become. We feel closer to each other and closer to God because of it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:35]: It definitely can be really re energizing and can get your mind in a different space when you're out in nature and you're able to have those unique conversations with your kids because, you know, you turn off the technology and just be.

Rick Guymon [00:20:52]: We love to go where there's no reception. Those are our favorite places. And then we're working even as adults to be on our phones and on screens less often. We just find greater joy without them.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:21:02]: Now we always finish our interviews with what I like to call our dad Connection six, where I ask you six more questions that delve a little bit deeper into you as a dad. Are you ready?

Rick Guymon [00:21:12]: I'm ready. Let's do it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:21:13]: What's one word that describes your relationship with your daughters?

Rick Guymon [00:21:17]: Awe. I stand in awe of who they are. Yeah, they're just incredible.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:21:21]: What's the best piece of dad advice that you've ever received?

Rick Guymon [00:21:25]: It was probably from my dad, who is the father of six daughters. And I remember one time I had a sister just two years older than me, and we were really close, but I was probably the first child that had a little bit of attitude as a teenager. You know what I mean? Some of that teenage angst, the 16 years old and I'm mad at the world syndrome, I like to call it. And my dad just said to me, you know, there's one time I when where I probably didn't say something Super. I never yelled at my mom or called her names or any of those kinds of things, but I was clear about my disdain for the things she was asking me to do. And so the worst punishment you could get was she'd get say, okay, go tell your dad how you treated me. No, no, no. I'm so sorry.

Rick Guymon [00:22:03]: I'm so sorry. He never beat us or anything. He was always very loving, very wonderful. But he said, someday you will understand once you get married and have daughters of your own how important respecting women is. Your job is to protect them, not because they couldn't, but because you don. You don't ever want them to be exposed to all of the things in the world that are going to be thrown at them. Let them pursue their own path, but do what you can to support them. And so once I got married, I realized that my job was to lift them up, not the other way around.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:35]: Now, I know you have three daughters, and the answer might be different for each of your daughters. What's one activity that you and your daughters love doing together?

Rick Guymon [00:22:43]: Okay. Yeah, this is different because they are so different. Gracie, who's our oldest, Gracie, loves to sing, and she has an incredible. An incredible voice. So I love to play the piano. So we will sit at the piano and I'll play music, and she will just sing. And so we spend a lot of time together at the piano singing and playing. And now we're at the point where I've got my wife who sings and my oldest two who sing and my oldest two daughters, and we'll write.

Rick Guymon [00:23:10]: I get to write four part or three part harmonies and music for them. And so we spend a lot of time doing that for my second daughter, Andalyn, and she is. You haven't heard much about her. She's 13. She is the one that will do any adventure with me. She'll try the salsas. She'll try, you know, the outdoor activities. She'll do all of those things.

Rick Guymon [00:23:28]: So she and I love to just go do things. Her talent is. She sees a need and she just goes and takes care of it. She's just got this amazing, amazing heart and sense of humor. So with Andalyn to almost perform, like comedic shows, and Mindy and I just sit and watch and laugh and giggle at that. So together we love to try salsas. So when we go, like to a farmer's market or whatever, we'll buy a whole bunch of salsa and then we'll come home and we'll grab a bag of chips and she and I Will eat chips and salsa together and. And talk there.

Rick Guymon [00:23:56]: And then my third daughter, Tessa, who's nine, she's the one that has down syndrome. Ugly dance parties, turn on any music, and right now she's obsessed with. She always has certain songs that just the beat or something gets to her and she'll just go to town. So right now we're just dancing like crazy. And then I love to get to put her to bed at night when read them a story or, you know, whatever that might look like now.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:24:17]: If you could give your daughter one life lesson in a single sentence, what would it be?

Rick Guymon [00:24:22]: I would want them to know that there's nothing they can do to escape their parents love or their heavenly parents love. Like, you can never go too far to not be able to come back. And I think that's important for them and important for me as a dad to recognize just who they really are, what they really are here to become, and what their potential is after this. So just knowing that there's no end to their potential and there's no end to what we would do for them.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:24:49]: What's one thing you've learned about yourself since becoming a dad?

Rick Guymon [00:24:53]: I used to think that my dad was impatient with 11 kids. I realized he's a saint. I think the thing that I realized is a huge part of parenting is me, for lack of a better term, taking a chill pill and just letting, you know, not expecting that perfection, not expecting really much of anything, letting life happen and recognizing that almost nothing matters and that my job is just to love them. I feel this strongly that it's not my job to. To kind of eternally chastise them. It's not my job to try to convert them. It's not even my job to. And it's definitely not my job to save them.

Rick Guymon [00:25:26]: And anytime that I'm trying to do those things or catch myself doing those things, I'm actually putting myself in place of someone who will do that much better with much greater love and. And with a broader view of eternity. My job is to love them. And sometimes that requires, you know, correction and things like that. But most of the time, it's just to let them know that they're loved by me, loved by God. And I think that relationship. If they have a great relationship with their earthly parents and a great relationship with their heavenly parents, then I think I've done a really good job as a dad and they will know much more than I do in very short order.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:03]: And finally, what advice would you give to other dads who want to build a lasting and meaningful relationship with their daughters.

Rick Guymon [00:26:11]: Yeah. I would say take the time to do it. If you can clear off your plate with all of those things that don't matter, then all of a sudden you have made time with them. And I. You're a really great example of this. Right. We've talked about how you just got back from a really wonderful trip with your oldest daughter, and I think just making the time for them. I think all relationships are made by spending time with them.

Rick Guymon [00:26:33]: And that was what my parents did really well. And what I'm hopefully doing with my own children is spending time with them so that they know that they matter to me, that they really matter to me. And that's one of the songs that Gracie and I sing together is from the musical the Waitress. And it's you matter to me. And she'll sing, you know, we'll sing that as a duet together. And just a beautiful, beautiful opportunity, I think, for us. Just recognize that everything can wait. This can't.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:58]: Well, Rick, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for sharing your journey with us today. And I know it's an ongoing journey. It's not something that is done. It will never be done. But I appreciate you sharing that, giving your thoughts, your perspectives, and what you've learned thus far. And I wish you all the best.

Rick Guymon [00:27:16]: Thank you so much. It was great to be here.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:18]: That's a wrap for this episode of the dad and Daughter Connection. Thanks for joining us on this journey to build stronger bonds and raise confident, independent daughters. Remember, being an engaged dad isn't about being perfect. It's about being present. If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe and share it with a fellow dad. And don't forget, you can find all our [email protected] until next time, keep showing up, keep connecting and keep being the dad she needs.

Musical Outro Performer [00:27:48]: We're all in the same boat and it's full of tiny, screaming passengers. We spend the time, we give the lessons, we make the meals, we buy them present and bring your A game. Cause those kids are growing fast the time goes by just like a dynamite blast Calling astronauts and firemen Carpenters and muscle men get out and be the world to them Be the best dad you can be Be the best that you can be.

Navigating the journey of fatherhood comes with unique joys and profound challenges, especially when it comes to building lasting, meaningful relationships with our daughters. In the latest episode of the Dad and Daughter Connection podcast, Dr. Christopher Lewis welcomes Daryl Potter—a seasoned banker, published author, and devoted father—for an inspiring conversation about the realities and rewards of raising both neurodivergent and neurotypical children.

Right from the start, this episode sets a heartfelt tone about the power of presence, vulnerability, and intentional connection. Dr. Lewis reminds us that fatherhood isn't a quest for perfection, but a continual commitment to showing up, listening, and learning alongside our children. Daryl echoes this philosophy, sharing deeply personal stories from his nearly 30 years of parenting—a journey shaped by both typical milestones and unexpected challenges. His openness about raising a daughter with a degenerative, nonverbal condition is both moving and eye-opening, reminding listeners that every child's journey (and every dad's, too) comes with its own unexpected plot twists.

A central theme of the discussion is the idea that parenting is storytelling—not just the stories we tell our kids, but the stories we live alongside them. Daryl explains how he intentionally crafts and shares stories about his own mistakes, growth, and childhood, giving his children not only a sense of family identity, but also permission to be imperfect, learn, and evolve. Just as importantly, he emphasizes the impact of the "stories" parents tell through their actions: how we handle spilled milk, failed attempts, or tough seasons. Our reactions can either instill shame or build resilience and belonging.

The episode is packed with practical wisdom: the importance of consistency, the transformative power of focused listening, and the annual necessity of "rewriting" our own parenting narrative as our children grow. Daryl shares beautiful examples—like letting his daughter choose her own socks, even when communication is limited—that illustrate how honoring a child's agency and individuality nurtures their confidence and sense of self.

For dads seeking actionable inspiration and heartfelt encouragement, this episode is a must-listen. It's a testament to the fact that connection isn't about being the perfect father—it's about showing up, embracing the journey, and learning to see the world through your daughter's eyes.

Ready to go deeper? Listen to the full episode of the Dad and Daughter Connection and discover more stories, challenges, and wins from fathers on the same path. Your journey to a deeper connection starts here.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:02]: Welcome to the dad and Daughter Connection, the podcast for dads who want to build stronger bonds and raise confident, independent daughters.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:12]: If you're looking to build a stronger bond with your daughter and help her grow into a confident, independent woman, you're in the right place. I'm Dr. Christopher Lewis, and the dad and Daughter Connection is the podcast where we dive into real stories, expert advice, and practical tips to help you navigate the incredible journey of fatherhood. In every episode, we'll bring you conversations that inspire, challenge, and equip you to show up as the dad your daughter needs. So let's get started, because being a great dad isn't just about being there. It's about truly connecting. Welcome back to the dad and Daughter Connection, where every week we have an opportunity to be able to delve a little bit deeper into the relationships that we want to build with our daughters. And every day we're going to be pushing ourselves to challenge ourselves to be that much better.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:08]: And we have to be willing and open to learn and to grow and to be able to know that we don't know everything. We're flawed. We're going to make mistakes along the way. And that's why this show exists, that's why this podcast is here, and that's why I love every week being able to talk with you, to be able to walk with you on this journey. You know, I've got two daughters, many of my guests have daughters. And in this journey that you're on, be open, be open to listening and hearing what people are saying. Doesn't mean that you're going to take something out of every episode. I hope you do.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:40]: But you're going to hear things. You're going to be able to learn things from every person that's on. That's why every week I bring different people on, different people with different experiences that can help you to be able to learn, to grow, to learn something a little bit new that you can put into that toolbox of your own. Now, today's guest is Daryl Potter, a seasoned banker, published author, devoted father who spent nearly 30 years balancing demands of a high level career and the joys of challenging. The joys and challenges of raising both a neurodivergent child and a neurotypical one with grown children and a strong, enduring marriage. Darrell brings a unique blend of wisdom, humility, and heart to this parenting conversation. I'm really excited to be able to have him here, to be able to talk not only about his own experience in raising a daughter, but he also talks about the fact that he believes that parenting is storytelling both the stories we tell our kids and the ones we live ourselves. So today we're going to be talking about that and delving a little bit deeper into the stories that we are sharing, but maybe the ones that we want to share as well and how we can better create stories to make us better parents in the end.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:55]: Darrell, thanks so much for being here today. I'm really excited.

Daryl Potter [00:02:59]: Pleasure to meet you, Chris, and to be here.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:01]: We start our episodes with an opportunity to delve a little bit deeper into you as a dad. I said you have a daughter. And I guess one of the things that I want to know first is every father has a unique relationship with their kids. You have a unique relationship with your daughter. What is one of the most meaningful moments you've shared with your daughter and what made it so special?

Daryl Potter [00:03:24]: I got 24 years of experiences to try to filter in a hurry. To be honest, the probably the best experience is really one of the first because it was formative for setting me up for the following almost quarter century. And that is I can remember we described when she first came home as it being like a baby honeymoon. And when you think about when you have a newborn daughter, she offers you nothing except noise when she's hungry and smelly bits at certain times. And I can just remember those first few days of we'd take naps, my wife and I, in the afternoon and we'd settle her in beside us and I'm a little larger than my wife and and so she'd roll towards me and she'd wind up with her head pressed into my ribs, just quietly breathing to the rhythm a little quicker, but to the rhythm of my ribs. And I, I couldn't fall asleep. I'd afraid of rolling over on her. And so we would just lay there.

Daryl Potter [00:04:15]: She'd sleep and I would just feel her against me. And I think that's been the I'd never had an experience like that in my life before, and it shaped the following 24 years because I recognized that I have to come to where you are right now. And at three days old, what she needed was a warm body to press against while she slept.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:36]: Now, with our daughters, there's always a balance. There's a balance in being able to guide our daughters while also giving them independence and allowing them to grow into the people that they're becoming. Talk to me about what you did to balance that for yourself.

Daryl Potter [00:04:54]: So it's interesting. I want to answer that question two ways because as you mentioned, I have A neurodivergent and a typical child. My son is the one who's typical. So I'm a big believer that, you know, my wife and I have talked about we're raising adults, not hobbies or reflections of ourselves or what have you. And so early on we had that really as a mindset to be thinking about the future as we transition through toddler to school to, you know, on and on. With our daughter, it's quite different because she out intellectually, physically at about eight years old, her condition kicked in and more strongly and it's a degenerative condition. So by age 12, she stopped talking. By age 14, she stopped walking, even with a walker and, and so on.

Daryl Potter [00:05:40]: So the, a lot of, so it requires in, in her case, so much more deliberateness. But it's the same philosophy as with our son. So as we, you know, for example, getting her dressed in the morning, it's so important to let her choose her own socks. She can't talk anymore, she can't get around by herself. But we can bring to her a, a options and she can still pick. I want the pink ones today. You know, obviously with our, with our son it's a, it's a totally different, you know, game and, and I would love to have had the opportunity to do the same thing with a daughter because I think it's so. It's so needed in today's society for females to be raised, for girls to be raised to be not adjuncts to the men in their lives, but to be their own person.

Daryl Potter [00:06:42]: And as much as we can, we try to do that for our daughter. It's just very difficult when she can't even dress herself anymore. So it's a different scenario.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:50]: Definitely challenging. And I can only imagine, you know, trying to understand her needs and being able to truly be able to still build that bond while interpreting what is needed. So I guess in thinking about that, when as you said, she's, she's non verbal and she can't do many of the things that like you said, your son can do. What are some intentional ways that you had to work and maybe you still are working today to continue to strengthen that bond with your daughter, especially during these challenges, the challenging times that you have.

Daryl Potter [00:07:36]: Yeah, I think one of the challenges that certainly I was, I would have had going into fatherhood and I think I've observed around me in society, friends, what have you, is that I do think men, particularly when they start having children or at a life stage, career wise, marriage wise, personal maturity wise, very goal Oriented, very driven, whether it's by, you know, family of origin issues or ambition issues or what have you. And there can be a really dangerous trap of missing moments, maybe even missing seasons. Our daughter was 10 days old when she we discovered that we had problems and we, we were event took a while to get a diagnosis. She essentially wasn't supposed to live past age 3. Definitely wouldn't make it into the teen years. The fact that she's 24 makes her a bit miraculous. But what that did for me early on is I had those as I described moments few days old of like bliss and imagining the future. And you know, all I have to do is just lay here quietly and she'll sleep to like literally a week later discovering she's going to be gone before long, like weeks or months.

Daryl Potter [00:08:57]: And it had, I think it could have many impacts denial or what have you. The effect it had on me was like reaching into my chest and just grabbing my heart and squeezing and I was like, I have to know you, I have to connect with you, I have to. You might not even live to language so I have to eye contact, physical touch. You must know that I love you and I must be able to read you before you're gone. Now the little turkey wound up going on for almost 25 years now. And you know, so that was, that's been false alarms every few days for 24 years, which is its own version of trauma. But it taught me how to be a better dad to my son as well, that need to learn focus. And I had a friend remind me of it actually quite explicitly maybe half a decade later in a situation where he reminded me, you know, they're not going to be five forever.

Daryl Potter [00:10:00]: A year from now you won't have a five year old anymore. So if, if you want to get to know your five year old, one.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:05]: Of the questions that I guess that comes to mind is as you're continuing to support and to help your daughter now into adulthood and doing what you can to be able to probably still push her, challenge her and help her in many different ways to be able to live the best life that she can, what's one way that you consistently are showing your daughter that she can always count on you?

Daryl Potter [00:10:31]: You know, you used the key word there is consistency. For her to be able to count on us and it applies to neurotypical children just as equally if not more for her to know that she can count on us, we have to be consist whether it's sleep deprivation or moodiness or what have you an Inconsistent parent is an inconsistent reality when a child is very young. And that can lead to a very unstable understanding of how to trust, how to relate, how to read, how to enjoy. It can have really long reaching implications. And a child at 10 may start to become cynical if the parent is too unpredictable. On the other hand, a child at 10 can just become hopelessly enmeshed in trying to adapt in well meaning but ultimately unhealthy ways that have to be undone later in adulthood if they're going to have healthy relationships. So I think that consistency is absolutely essential, obviously positive consistency, but being reliable in your engagement that even I think sometimes. For example, I got a buddy of mine who I did a lot of camping with, family camping, and he was great because he had two rules, no falling in the fire or drowning in the lake.

Daryl Potter [00:11:43]: Like those were his two rules when he was camping. And you know, I think sometimes we make too many rules and then don't enforce them. And so that's a kind of inconsistency that can feel well meaning. But maybe we need to think, you know, maybe there's more rules than just not falling in the fire or drowning in the lake. But you know, that's not a bad target to, you know, especially when they're really young to help them understand and then be consistent. Like seriously, thou shalt not fall in the fire. But maybe let tripping over the 10 peg go is not exactly a crime.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:27]: Now, you know, I, one of the things that also comes to mind is as your kids get older, you, you mentioned earlier, you're not trying to create a replica of yourself, but you inevitably, as your kids are growing, you have dreams for, you have ideas for them, you have a picture in your mind's eye of where you think they may be and then the reality sits in of where they end up. It may be very different as, as we, we've heard in the story of your daughter as well. So in talk and thinking about who your daughter is now, who she was as she's grown up, how do you, I'm going to use that word, consistency. How do you consistently support your daughter and helping her to pursue her passions and dreams even when she can't speak or do some things that you know, she wants to do.

Daryl Potter [00:13:16]: If you think about it, verbal or nonverbal, we learn a lot about what our children want by watching them. How old is a child before they start really talking in a way that really makes sense? We might say two, but is it, isn't it closer to four before it's like okay, now I'm really fully getting cognitive communication here. But we don't wait till 2 or 4 to understand what they want. And I think a parent who's paying very close attention is not just listening, they're watching. They're being sensitive to the non verbal cues that their child is giving. As a matter of fact, your child is more likely to tell you the truth and the most intimate parts of what they want to express non verbally when they tell you yes, but their body says no. Once they're past age 4 or whatever the age is, you can start pulling on that thread a little bit and teaching them how to communicate, teaching them that it's okay to express, you know, a negative emotion or what have you. So in terms of how to help them onwards towards their dreams, sometimes that's just helping them understand it's okay to verbalize those dreams.

Daryl Potter [00:14:27]: So do you want to go with your friends to do such? No, no, no, I don't want to do that. But why that tone? Why that body language? Why that? And maybe it's not, we have to learn some parenting skills. Maybe it's not a frontal assault to challenge what doesn't sound like a totally forthcoming answer, you know, and then to discover there's a rupture in the friendship, or there's been a hesitation as to whether they feel like they have what it takes or maybe like you don't want them to do such and such and to be able to draw that out in dialogue because, you know, we've had these sort of conversations with my son and engaging with my daughter where they want to do things that they're not going to be allowed to do. But by teaching them that it's okay to have the conversation and not be in trouble for wanting what they're not allowed. And we can talk through it and there may be alternatives.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:09]: Now, I talked about the fact that you describe parenting as storytelling. What does that mean to you? And how has that idea shaped the way that you've raised your kids, especially your daughter?

Daryl Potter [00:15:20]: One of the strongest ways, I think we first connected over a book that I've written, something more, Living well in a Broken World, that was published last year. Kind of a deep dive on the whole topic of storytelling as a process of unpacking. Call it the meaning of life, living well in a broken world. How to navigate the hungers and dissatisfactions and complexities of being an adult on a planet that doesn't always do what I wanted to do when I wanted to do it. And so for the storytelling Aspect both in the book and in life. We're storytelling creatures. We remember stories. I could give you a whole list of facts, but if I gave you a brief story, you know, a week from now, you might.

Daryl Potter [00:15:59]: You'll remember none of my facts, but you'll remember the story. And the book starts with one of my kids asking me a question that leads to a story which led to the writing of the book. I see it working in a couple different ways. One is for myself. What story do I tell myself about my stage of fatherhood, about where my kids are at, about my role in my kid's life? How can I take the present moment and tell a story to myself about the future and where. If this was a. I'm a novelist on the side as well, so. So the, you know, how would this plot play out if my actions with my child today were the opening of chapter one? Where is this relationship going? Based on how Saturday afternoon's conversation went, it's also incredibly powerful as a parenting tool by telling stories about ourselves to our kids.

Daryl Potter [00:16:49]: Our kids are fascinated by the fact that their adult parents used to not know how the world worked. Surprise. Kind of still don't. But we used to not know at the level of a 7 year old or a 10 year old. And the mistakes we made, what we learned from them. They learn so much from that. They learn our biographies. They learn a little bit of their own identity because if they're not adopted, they probably share some genetic traits that are similar.

Daryl Potter [00:17:14]: They learn also humility by accident because they hear you tell how you tripped and fell and how you overcame a particular situation or how a bad choice led to some extra work. So the process of telling stories about ourselves is deeply interesting to children and deeply memorable. I can remember stories my parents have told that tell many, but I think I remember every one of them from their childhoods.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:38]: So as you think about stories, what kind of stories did you find yourself telling intentionally or unintentionally as your kids grew up? How did those stories impact their sense of identity and belonging?

Daryl Potter [00:17:52]: The stories that were told about self for the benefit of their growth. So that was quite explicit. One of the biggest stories we tell is the ones that are also non verbal. So for example, child messes something up at the table, knocks the glass of milk over and breaks the glass and kind of screws up dinner a little bit. You tell a remarkably impacting, potentially decades long impacting story by how you respond. Are they a stupid person for knocking the milk over? Are they lectured for I told you not to put the milk at the edge of the table that how many times have we had this conversation? Or are they oh, did any of that glass get on you? Don't move. Let me make sure we get pick up the glass first. Just make them feel protected.

Daryl Potter [00:18:37]: Or is it funny? Holy cow, you hit the dog. Like what story do you tell by your natural reactions? Now the challenge with those kind of stories is they're often immediate and not thought out. And therefore my advice to dads is you gotta a therapy term would be to do your work. You've got to really kind of unpack a little bit of maybe self. If your immediate reactions to unpleasant events tell the story you'd actually don't like that plot on There may be a little bit of work unrelated to even being a dad needing to be done before but even those situations can be fantastic self storytelling opportunities to realize ah, I don't like that the milk got spilled and I made it about something negative. It's just milk. If the kid's done it five times this week, maybe it's time to get them a plastic tumbler A little too quick out of the sippy.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:26]: Because I mentioned earlier and we've talked about this, that you've raised both a neurodivergent and a neurotypical child and that brings unique challenges. How did the story that you told yourself as a parent help you stay grounded and connected through those differences?

Daryl Potter [00:19:43]: I'm going to slightly change your question or my answer, but I will touch on what you're talking about because what I found was I had competing stories, particularly with my daughter, because I think society tells us stories. Some of them can be just quite negative and sexist in terms of she needs to be look a certain way, she needs to have a certain type of interaction model. A tomboy girl's not acceptable, you know, what have you. But step beyond that. For a parent with a special needs child, there can be a story that some part of your psyche might tell yourself that you did this somehow or this somehow reflects on you like your child is your resume. And I was somehow didn't produce a good one in terms of the society's expectations of being tall and beautiful and smart and volleyball team and whatever is going on in your particular culture and neighborhood. So there's a lot of competing stories that we have and then we have our family of origin stories in terms of what's expected with the style of respect to grandparents or the type of clothes they wear or all sorts of things. There could be such a loud chorus of conflicting stories for us to filter through that.

Daryl Potter [00:20:54]: Some of the most important story work I felt that occurred was the turning off everything and just learning what story matters to me and then learning to rewrite that story. So in my daughter's case, when it became apparent that she wasn't going to join the Olympics or the debate team, I needed to make sure that my story didn't have Olympic athlete or verbal jiu jitsu star anywhere in my internal makeup. The end goal to the story of my daughter, this is her life, her health, her biology, and in the case of, of my typical child, I think more in terms of also their dreams and their specific intellectual gifts and so on. And I need to help them achieve their story, not play out one of the many, including some that might be just my own personal stories that I want them to wish fulfill.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:21:45]: And thinking about that, I think sometimes we think of storytelling as something that we do for our kids. But how can dads listen for the stories that their daughters are trying to tell about themselves and the world around them?

Daryl Potter [00:22:04]: I love that you asked that question because I really believe that sometimes and this doesn't just apply to parenting, this applies to marriage and being a manager at work and whatever else. Honestly, in so many situations, loving comes down to listening. The time given to letting another human being know that you have my full attention. And this was true when my kids were young, before smartphones were a thing. I think it's just heightened now in an era of smartphones to really know that I put that thing down and we have eye contact. In the case of my daughter, it also helps with physical contact. She responds very well when I'm with her. Sit cross legged in front of her and hold her hands.

Daryl Potter [00:22:43]: She'll let me know if she's not in the mood for that today. But that bonding is so important to the sense of connection. Humans need to be listened to and children all the more. Prior to being your child, they didn't exist. You are shaping their understanding of how reality, reality works and whether or not they matter in that reality. And that bank is being filled up one coin at a time with every second you give them.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:08]: Now, looking back, were there moments where you had to rewrite your parenting story? Maybe a time when you realized that the narrative you were living no longer served your daughter or your family 100%?

Daryl Potter [00:23:22]: I would say there is at least an annual exercise like that, because my wife and I have described the whole process of parenting as being one long process of letting go. When a child is born, you decide everything they can cry if they want, but you're still the one deciding if the bum gets changed or the tummy gets fed. The micromanaging control that a parent has at birth is just kind of bizarre. But by the time they're 20, they should be adults. They should be able to, if they're not in school, pay the rent if they are in school, show up to classes on their own and have a plan for the future. And not mom and dad's plan. They should be having their own plans and putting those plans place. But the bridge from infancy to 20 can't start at 18 or 12.

Daryl Potter [00:24:09]: Our son got his first chores when he was 4 and a half or 5. So that every single year we have had to have a process of telling ourselves a new story of what parenting now means for this age group. And gradually, the way we phrased it is, is we would extend both privileges and responsibilities was how we packaged it. We would extend additional privileges, meaning like staying up later or food choices or whatever when they're young. And responsibilities could be something essential, simple as taking the recycling to the garage or whatever, but pairing privileges and responsibilities together as the children advance through the years. So it's not just a case of hey, I'm your chauffeur from 8 to 16 and then you're on your own. But there's a real intimate connection between their expanding maturity and their expanding responsibility. And that starts with parents telling themselves the story of they turned seven, I don't have a six year old anymore.

Daryl Potter [00:25:03]: What does talking to a seven year old sound like? Because if it sounds a lot like six not growing as a parent or helping them grow, and if I'm only responding to them, I'm probably going to eventually frustrate them and we're going to get into some negative pushback come teen years if I'm always the one lagging as they grow.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:25:20]: Very true. So we already mentioned your daughter's 24, your son's 21. Now that your children are grown, how do you see the stories that you told and lived echoed in the people that they've become? And what legacy do you hope that those stories leave behind?

Daryl Potter [00:25:36]: Wonderful question. They are easier when we talk about my son because he's neurotypical. But I think that it's true for my daughter as well. They are more confident in themselves, in their place in the world, in their ability to navigate within the limitations of their life situations. My daughter being the one more limited. Of course, my son's limits tend to be more economic because he's in third year university. But as a result of that they always have known they are loved. They always have heard stories to learn from our mistakes so that they could avoid them.

Daryl Potter [00:26:11]: We have worked very hard to not let that spilled milk be be an opportunity for verbal abuse or just using that as an illustrative example and letting them advance from age 6 to 7 and then making sure 8 looks different. The result is neither one of them are socially desperate. Neither one of them in the way that I would describe myself at that age or, or I think I can speak for my wife in terms of her background. Neither one of them are socially insecure. Neither one of them are I'll speak more for my son now socially inept. My daughter's. Well, she has seizures and stuff so that kind of screws up social interaction when you you throw that in with non verbal but the point is even with my daughter at times I look at her and I think you are more secure with us than I can ever remember being growing up and I know my wife could ever remember being growing up and she hasn't been able to say a word to us for over a decade and I don't know how much of what we say to her she fully understands anymore because there's a cognitive decline there. Although she's cheeky by nature.

Daryl Potter [00:27:13]: So I think sometimes she pretends she doesn't understand just she's still got a personality. So I think that that process on the other side. First of all, parenting is the hardest thing I've ever done in my life. Tied maybe for doing a decent job of marriage, fantastic. But requires a level of engagement that didn't exist when I was a bachelor, it's very satisfying to come out the other side and to see a lot of hard work pay off. Now when you're dealing with a special needs child, payoff looks differently than it does on our son who's going to head off to fourth year before long. But nevertheless payoff in emotional rewards and practical rewards as we see them develop.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:49]: Now we always finish our interviews with what I like to call our dad Connection six where I ask you six more questions to delve a little bit deeper into you as a dad. What's one word that describes your relationship with your daughter?

Daryl Potter [00:28:01]: Close.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:28:02]: What's the best piece of dad advice you ever received?

Daryl Potter [00:28:05]: When my son was in his Pokemon phase and one of my camping buddies took me aside and said you better learn to love Pokeman now or he will talk about it with his friends instead. And by the time he gets to 10 you will have trained him not to talk to you.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:28:20]: What's one activity that you and your daughter love doing together?

Daryl Potter [00:28:23]: Going for walks in the woods. Ever since she was a baby she's loved trees and I'm a bonsai guy. So between the two of us, she might get that from me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:28:29]: If you could give your daughter one life lesson in a single sentence, what would it be?

Daryl Potter [00:28:33]: Your mom and dad love you unconditionally and adore you. You don't measure up to the mentioned the Olympics and the debate team. It doesn't change our love for you for a second.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:28:45]: What's one thing that you've learned about yourself since becoming a dad?

Daryl Potter [00:28:50]: But love isn't about what you get, it's what you give. Infants teach you that, but so do 10 year olds when they're a little self and you start to realize I love you anyways.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:29:01]: And finally, what advice would you give to other dads who want to build a lasting and meaningful relationship with their daughters?

Daryl Potter [00:29:09]: Get down on their level, like literally sitting on the floor if they're really young. Get that eye contact and learn to understand the human behind those eyes as opposed to society or our wishes or whatever else might impose between as a filter. Strip away the filters and learn the human. There's so much to be discovered and behind a daughter's eyes. And they will learn not to tell you who they really are. If you teach them that you only want to see the screen between but focus on who they really are. That's magic.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:29:45]: Well, Darrell, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for being here today, for sharing your own ongoing journey that you're if people want to find out more about you, where should they go?

Daryl Potter [00:29:53]: They can find me on my website, darrelpotter.com that's a D A1R Y L.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:29:59]: Potterlikeharry.com Again Daryl, thank you. Thank you for being here today. Thank you for sharing your story and I wish you all the best.

Daryl Potter [00:30:06]: Thank you Christopher. It's been fantastic to talk to you.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:30:09]: That's a wrap for this episode of the dad and Daughter Connection. Thanks for joining us on this journey to build stronger bonds and raise confident, independent daughters. Remember, being an engaged dad isn't about being perfect, it's about being present. If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe and share it with a fellow dad. And don't forget, you can find all our [email protected] until next time, keep showing up, keep connecting and keep being the dad she needs.

Musical Outro Performer [00:30:39]: We're all in the same boat and it's full of tiny, screaming passengers. We spend the time, we give the lessons we make the meals we buy them presents and bring your A game. Cause those kids are growing fast the time goes by just like a dynamite blast Calling astronauts and firemen Carpenters and musclemen get out and be the world to them Be the best dad you can be Be the best dad you can.

In a recent episode of the "Dad and Daughter Connection" podcast, Dr. Christopher Lewis sits down with Matt Strain, a devoted father and passionate advocate for intentional parenting. Matt's candid conversation offers a heartfelt look at the ups and downs of fatherhood, highlighting the power of presence, vulnerability, and shared experiences in building deep and lasting relationships with our daughters.

Learning As You Go

One of the central themes in the episode is the recognition that there is no instruction manual for fatherhood. Matt and Dr. Lewis both emphasize that every dad is figuring it out as they go—making mistakes, learning, and growing alongside their children. The podcast exists as a toolbox, filled with stories and insights from other dads, to remind us that we are not alone in this journey.

Overcoming Personal Struggles

Matt's story is notably powerful for its honesty. He opens up about his journey with sobriety—how a transformative conversation with his doctor prompted him to quit drinking when his daughter was just an infant. Through pain, persistence, and the support of his family, Matt rebuilt his life, learning healthier ways to cope and connect. His journey is a testament to the resilience that many fathers quietly cultivate and the courage it takes to make hard changes for the sake of our children.

In sharing his struggles with vulnerability, Matt models an important lesson for other dads: you don't have to be perfect, but you do have to be present and honest. This authenticity builds trust, showing daughters that their fathers are not only protectors, but also humans who strive, stumble, and get back up.

Building Connection Through Shared Experience

A highlight of the episode is Matt's story of bonding with his daughter through physical activity, especially cycling and preparing for triathlons. Rather than imposing his interests, Matt encourages dads to meet their daughters where they are—even if that means learning to love something new. Whether it's cheering at a dance recital or joining Girls on the Run, the key is to actively support the things that make them light up.

Takeaway for Dads

Matt's journey reinforces a simple but profound message: being a great dad isn't about perfection—it's about being present, listening without judgment, and building memories together.

This episode is filled with wisdom, inspiration, and practical insights for any father who wants to deepen his connection with his daughter. Listen to the full conversation and discover how you too can strengthen one of the most important relationships in your life.

Subscribe to the "Dad and Daughter Connection" and join a community of fathers growing, learning, and connecting every week.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:02]: Welcome to the dad and Daughter Connection, the podcast for dads who want to build stronger bonds and raise confident, independent daughters.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:12]: If you're looking to build a stronger bond with your daughter and help her grow into a confident, independent woman, you're in the right place. I'm Dr. Christopher Lewis, and the dad and Daughter Connection is the podcast where we dive into real stories, expert advice, and practical tips to help you navigate the incredible journey of fatherhood. In every episode, we'll bring you conversations that inspire, challenge, and equip you to show up as the dad your daughter needs. So let's get started, because being a great dad isn't just about being there. It's about truly connecting. Welcome back to the dad and Daughter Connection, where every week we have a great opportunity to be able to work on our relationships with our daughter, working to build those strong relationships that we want to have with them one step at a time. You know, there are no rule books.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:08]: There are no guidebooks. There's nothing that we get. When you become a father, whether it's a father of a son or a father of a daughter, you gotta learn along the way. And this podcast exists to be able to give you some of those tools for your toolbox, allow for you to be able to learn from others that have come before you, and allow for you an opportunity to be able to build some resiliency, some other tools to allow for you to be able to know you're not alone and that there are so many other dads out there that struggle, just like you do, to be that dad that you want to be. And my hope every week is that you have an opportunity to be able to take some things away from each of these conversations, to learn from our guests, to. To allow for you to be able to gain that insight that will allow for you to be that father in the future that you see yourself as being. Today we got another great guest. Matt Strain is with us.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:07]: Matt's a father of two. He has a son and a daughter, and we're gonna be talking about his relationship with his daughter and some of the things that they've been doing together to be able to strengthen that bond along the way. But as always, we're gonna get to know Matt a little bit more as well. Matt, thanks so much for being here today.

Matt Strain [00:02:25]: Oh, thank you for having me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:26]: You know, we always start off our conversation with some opportunities to be able to get to know you and your relationship with your daughter a little bit more. And I guess, first and foremost, as you think about your relationship With Lily, what's one of the most meaningful moments that you've been able to share with her thus far and what made it so special?

Matt Strain [00:02:44]: I think a lot of it. For a lot of us who had young kids, when the COVID lockdown hit, we were all stuck in the house really, really close to our kids. A lot closer than most parents get under normal circumstances. But I think one of the moments that really, really sticks with me was after things finally slowed down and we opened things back up. After doing all of first grade and some of kindergarten remotely, my daughter went back to school in person. And it was really hard for her because she had forgotten how to interact with other kids. Now at this point, we were walking to school every day because her school was only about half a mile away. And I would walk her to school, and more often than not, when I came to pick her up, she was just porn up.

Matt Strain [00:03:29]: We would be upset, we would be crying, and I would ask her what's wrong? And a large amount of it was just this lack of remembering how to socialize. One of the big arguments was, you know, at recess today, nobody wanted to play the game that I wanted to play. And we went through this period of about two months where I had to remind her that, you know, but did you volunteer to play anybody else's games that they wanted to play? And she was like, well, no, I wanted to play my game. And I'm like, well, they feel the same way. And we had a lot of these conversations over the course of about six to eight weeks. And after about six to eight weeks, she started getting re socialized and re acclimated. And it wasn't just one aha moment or big light bulb, but I think during those walks and those conversations, we got a little bit closer. And more importantly, she got to a point where she felt like she could trust me and talk to me and that I would, number one, listen.

Matt Strain [00:04:25]: And not try to tell her what I thought, but listen to what she had to say and that she could rely on me to not judge.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:32]: You know, that's so important, because being able to not judge and be able to just be there, be present, is something that is not always innately male. I'm going to say so many times men are programmed to fix things, and we jump right in with that answer. Instead of just being in the moment and listening. Talk to me about that for you. And whether being a father to a daughter, whether in that situation or in others, if you've had to reprogram yourself in any way, well, there's been a.

Matt Strain [00:05:06]: Lot of reprogramming of me since I became a father. I have a lovely partner in life. My wife, Angela, she is a doctor. Which is the reason why when my daughter was born A little over 11 years ago, I stepped away from my career as a chef and became a stay at home parent. We wanted to have a parent at home. And to be blunt, Dr. Money Trump Chef money. And we had a desire to pay the house note and the bills and that type of thing.

Matt Strain [00:05:31]: So she kept working. And her focus is she works in psychiatry. And she has helped me along a lot. And one of the things that we do as a couple is that whenever one of us starts complaining about either something happening at work or in our social lives or with the kids or whatever else, at some point during the venting session, one of us will look up and say, honest question, are you looking for answers or did you just want to vent? And a lot of the time the answer is, I just want to complain. I just need somebody to complain to. And it was hard. It's really, really hard because I'm like you. My instinct is, well, I know how you can fix this.

Matt Strain [00:06:10]: I know what I would do in that situation, and you want to do that, but that's not what that person needs at that moment. So a lot of it started long before we had kids. One of the things that happened shortly after my daughter was born and I stepped away from my career as a chef, that was the biggest change. About four months after my daughter was born, I went into a doctor's appointment, and I'm a type 2 diabetic, so I regularly get blood work done. And my primary care physician noticed some abnormalities in my blood work and had me come back in to do an additional panel and brought me back in after those results came in to have a real serious conversation with me. And basically I went into the doctor and the doctor informed me that I was going to quit drinking that day. And I laughed and I said, oh, yeah, you mean cut down, right? And to her credit, my doctor pointed at my daughter, who at that point was a little over four months old, sitting in her little car seat asleep, thank heavens, during the doctor's appointment, and said, that really depends. And I said, depends on what? And she said, it depends on if you have any intention of living to see her graduate high school.

Matt Strain [00:07:12]: And I said, excuse me. And she explained that the way that my liver enzymes were so far out of whack that she was fairly certain that I was within a percentage point or two of being put on a transplant list and that I would probably die before I got one. And so I went home and quit drinking. It was probably the hardest thing I've ever done in my life. I was a real jerk, I used to say for the first three or four months. My wife has informed me that it was closer to the first year. But at this point I am over 11 years without a drink. And that changed a lot of things for me.

Matt Strain [00:07:47]: Having worked in the restaurant industry, drugs, alcohol, it's all just part of the world. No one even looks twice at the idea of somebody sitting down and having three or four drinks before work. Especially when you're somebody like me who was working in the kitchen, not out there dealing with people. Obviously it had gotten out of hand, but the thing that I wasn't prepared for was that when I stopped drinking, I had to relearn how to function. I had no ability to control emotions whatsoever because I had spent years and years just numbing everything. So there was a really rocky period in there in the early part of my daughter's life. Luckily, being as how this happened when she was four months old. Neither of my children have any memories of their dad when he was actively an alcoholic.

Matt Strain [00:08:35]: They've only known me in recovery, which is a huge plus. But it really did prompt a lot of big changes in my life and learning new coping mechanisms, new ways to interact with people in the world and everything else. And I think that also really helped me become a better father because I was already in the process of making so many changes. It was really just one more thing added onto the pile.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:02]: So I guess as you went through that journey for yourself and as you said, you had to go home and just stop. And for many men who may be in that situation where they either they were told that they need to and they, they don't, or they think they need to and they struggle. Talk to me about that for yourself. And what allowed you to be able to be 11 years in, to be able to make that step for yourself as a man, as a father, to be able to stay consistent in this journey that you've been on?

Matt Strain [00:09:38]: Well, in the beginning, I'm not going to lie, it was pure fear. I mean, I was terrified at that point. I was 42 years old. I was not ready to die. I had just become a father. I have this little tiny squiggling little bundle of love. I mean, we all remember that four to six month period. We've all blocked up the memories of the 3 o' clock in the Morning, waking up and wishing for the sweet release of death or at the very least, a longer nap.

Matt Strain [00:10:03]: And, I mean, I'd be lying if I told you I didn't feel the urge to drink. I mean, it was there constantly. It helped that I have a really supportive family. One of the things that my wife and I did is we removed every bit of alcohol from this house, and it was two years before there was any alcohol of any kind in this house. And, I mean, we removed Nyquil, we removed vanilla extract, we removed cooking wines, everything. My wife, the only time she got to drink is if we were out to eat somewhere or if we had gone to a party or gone over to someone else's house. She might have a little. But number one was that we got rid of the opportunity for it.

Matt Strain [00:10:44]: I stopped carrying cash of any kind. I started doing everything that I do with nothing but a credit card. Because with credit cards, there are receipts, and with receipts, there's accountability. That was a request that I made, not her. That I looked up and said, I need to do this for me. And again, after that initial period, I started to come alive again. I started doing things that I hadn't done in decades, whether it was spending more time reading or, you know, going hiking in the woods again and getting outside, things that I just wasn't doing and hadn't been doing for the last 20 years and really started to enjoy living life. And after a while, it just became a personal challenge to realize that I'm stronger than this.

Matt Strain [00:11:33]: Again, I hate to go back to those stereotypical I'm a man type mentalities, but it was, I'm not going to let this be. And I worked hard and I struggled. There's no two ways about it. Like everyone who goes through this process, there were stumbles. There were stumbles. But one of the phrases that I use is a lot of time, you'll hear people, people that will keep a list of, I've been sober for this many days, and then they stumble and they have a drink, and suddenly they're like, well, I've undone the past six months worth of work, and the answer is no. No, you haven't. You had one bad day.

Matt Strain [00:12:06]: That doesn't discount the six months prior to that. Unless you let it get up, dust yourself off, and get right back on the right path. After about two years, it became the new norm for me. One of the other big ones, and this was the hardest one for me, was that I realized that the best thing I could do was to be very, very public and open about the fact that I couldn't drink. I let all my friends know. I let all of my family know because that made them help look out for me. And again, if you've informed your friends that I have a problem and I can't drink and you find them still offering you drinks, newsflash, those are not your friends. Those are just drinking buddies.

Matt Strain [00:12:49]: Your real friends are going to be like, oh, well then, yeah, let's keep this away from you. And it makes a huge difference. One of the funniest stories. As you know, I've been involved with the National At Home dad Network for a number of years and they throw a convention every year. So it was in 2021, right after the COVID lockdown. We had skipped a year and done a virtual convention. And then we did an in person one in Cincinnati and we were doing our kickoff party, which was convention Eve, and it was at this Irish bar. And as an intro, after I had been sober for about probably close to five or six years, we were out to eat one day and they had some non alcoholic beers on the menu.

Matt Strain [00:13:31]: And I thought, you know, I'm going to try one of these. I mean, I had been very nervous about doing it for years prior to that for the fear that this might trigger cravings or whatever else. But I felt pretty confident in my sobriety at that point. And also I was just buying a bottle at a restaurant. It's not like it was here at the house. And we still had all the safety measures as far as credit cards and everything else in place and it was really tasty and it made me remember that I really like beer for the flavor, but that wasn't what I was using to fuel my alcoholism. Honestly, beer just couldn't get me where I needed to go. I was drinking hard liquor for that.

Matt Strain [00:14:06]: And so I've begun drinking non alcoholic beer fairly regularly. So I'm standing at the bar as we're getting ready for this kickoff party and I had asked the bartender if they had an non alcoholic beer and he was like, oh yeah. We just got in this new Lagunitas IPA that's non alcoholic. And I'm like, great, I'd love to try one. And they brought one up and they popped open the bottle. And here I am holding a brown bottle of non alcoholic beer in my hand, taking a sip when somebody comes up the stairs. And it's one of the other guys that comes to the convention regularly who's a friend of mine, and he's not a small man, he comes running across the floor of this second story restaurant. And I mean literally, I can hear the thumping and literally jumps in my face and is like, what the hell are you doing? And I'm like, it's not alcoholic.

Matt Strain [00:14:53]: And he's like, oh, oh crap. I'm really sorry, man. And my immediate response was, no, don't be sorry. I love that. Like that shows me that you actually care. But his thing was he had never seen me with a bottled non alcoholic beer. All the stuff that I drank was always in can. But the fact is having people that are willing to have your back at that level really does help because I think you'll find that most of the people that care about you want you to do what's good for you.

Matt Strain [00:15:21]: And there are some people out there who can drink in moderation. I'm just not one of them.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:25]: So you're 11 years in and your daughter is 11. And so I guess one question that I have is as she gets older, there's going to be things that will be temptations for her. As your son gets older, you've gone through this yourself and how do you hope to have conversations with them about your journey and what's brought you to where you are today and the decisions that they make in their lives?

Matt Strain [00:15:53]: Well, we've already had some of those conversations early on. I mean, my wife enjoys a glass of wine every now and then, occasionally hard cider or mead. But literally she will pour herself a glass of mead with dinner one night and then put a cork in the bottle and put it in the fridge and it might sit there for like three, four, five days before she bothers pouring another one. I, on the other hand, didn't understand why a bottle of Jameson had a screw top because once I opened it, I wasn't stopping till it was empty. When they were younger, they were oblivious. They didn't think anything of it. But as they've gotten older, they've noticed that mom will have a glass of wine or we'll have company over and everybody will be having a glass of wine. But I don't.

Matt Strain [00:16:33]: And we've told them up front that dad's problem is that he doesn't have an off switch, that once he starts, he really can't stop and that the best thing that I can do for me is to just not start. And we've explained to them that this is just the way things are for dad and that it's not that way for mom. So she enjoys every now and then. And when the time comes, I'm really Hoping that a they inherit my wife's genetics, not mine, and that they don't have that little thing in the back of their head that says more, more, more, but that if they do, the experiences that I've had and the things that I've been through will help me help them. The fact is, I'd be lying if I said I didn't start using alcohol as well as other substances back when I was in high school and living at home with my parents. And they knew some, but they had no idea of most of it. I would like to believe that when my children get to that age and those temptations hit them, if they do give in and experiment and that type of thing, that with my previous experience, hopefully I'll be able to identify the signs a little better than my parents were able to. And more importantly, that my wife can speak to them from the perspective of a professional who knows better.

Matt Strain [00:17:49]: And I can speak to them from the perspective of somebody who's been there and knows what the end result and knows where it's going to bring you. And again, I don't make a secret of it. I'm more than happy to explain to my kids this is what it was. Now I do it in age appropriate way. I mean, I don't talk to my daughter when she was seven with the same details that I talk to her now that she's 11 and about to go into middle school. But there's no benefit in hiding any of our past to anybody.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:19]: One of the things that comes to mind is this journey that you've been on is, is also a health journey in many different ways. Not only going from the brink of where your doctor told you that, that you were on the verge of being on a transplant list and possibly leading toward death, to now being in a much different place. And I know that when you turn 49, you decision to do your first triathlon and now you're starting to share some of that exercise and health journey with your daughter. So tell me a little bit more about that journey for you.

Matt Strain [00:18:54]: So when I was 49, full disclosure, I got picked up in 2021 as a brand ambassador for a particular non alcoholic beer brewery. And they're very involved in the fitness space and they issued a challenge over Memorial Day weekend. And the idea was that you had three days to do their version of a triathlon. You had to swim for 30 minutes and they didn't care what you were doing. You could swim laps, you could play Marco Polo, just as long as you were moving. And in the water, you had to bike for 30 miles however you wanted, and you had to run, crawl, walk, hike, whatever, for three miles. And I did all of it at the gym because I didn't own a bike. And they had a pool and there was a treadmill, and my wife was working one of those days, so I couldn't go that day because I wasn't quite comfortable with bringing my kids to the gym yet, because while masking and protocols were going relatively well, My wife works in the emergency department of the hospital, so she was on the front lines during COVID And our biggest fear was that we were going to be the vectors spreading it to our community.

Matt Strain [00:20:01]: So we isolated ourselves as much as we could. And I made sure that anytime I went out, I was wearing a mask, not so much to protect me, but because I was always concerned that she could bring something home from the hospital. And I didn't want to be Typhoid Mary. I ended up doing it in two days. One day, I swam laps for 30 minutes and got out and then did three miles on the treadmill. And the next day I went back and rode a stationary bike for 30 miles. And after I'd done it, in return for doing that, I got a free case of their beer. So, apparently, exercise is much more of a priority when I'm getting bribed with something that tastes good.

Matt Strain [00:20:37]: But I told my wife, if I can do this in two days, there's no reason why I wouldn't be able to do all of this in one day. And to her credit, she did look me straight in the eye and say, well, yeah, but why in the world would you want to? And I laughed, and I said, well, you know, I'm 49. I should do something epic. I'm too. Before I turn 50, I'm too smart to jump out of a plane. I already own a motorcycle. This seems doable. And she laughed, and she said, sure, why don't you actually buy a bicycle and ride it outside before you jump all over this? And so I did.

Matt Strain [00:21:06]: I bought a bike, and I started riding around the neighborhood and decided I was going to go through with it. And I finally did my first one, and it was painful. And there were a lot of points during that race that I questioned a lot of life decisions that brought me to that point. I finished dead last. Dead last by over half an hour compared to the person who came in second to last. Literally, the plan was to do it once, check it off the list, and never do it again. And about two days later, all I could Think of is, when's the next, When's the next? So the next year I ended up doing five. The year after that I did four more.

Matt Strain [00:21:39]: Two Sundays ago, I did my 15th race. Now I've only been doing the sprint and Olympic distance. I'm not doing the long format, 70.3 and 140.6 races yet. That's the goal down the road, but we have to build up to that. However, while I was doing this, my daughter started saying, you know, one day I want to do a triathlon too. And I remember laughing and saying, well, you know, the first thing we got to do is get the training wheels off your bikes. I'm pretty sure they don't let you race with training wheels. And she was like, yeah, that's true.

Matt Strain [00:22:09]: So about two years ago, we were out at the park and she's made up her mind. She was ready to take training wheels off. And we took the training wheels off and she took her about two or three tries and she got it down and was absolutely hooked on the bike. And so she and I started going on bike rides together. I think our first long ride, we did a 10 mile ride on a local greenway. Here I am riding a tricked out triathlon bike and she's riding a Disney Frozen single speed huffy and did 10 miles. I was blown away by how tough she was. Granted, the complaints started at about mile eight, but like I told her, the car's two miles that way.

Matt Strain [00:22:47]: There's only one way to get there so we can rest, but we got to keep going. And she got hooked and absolutely loved it. And then I stumbled across a group this past spring called Girls on the Run, which is a wonderful nonprofit that works with girls that are in third through fifth grade. And they work on positive body image and self confidence and all the rest of it using running as a teaching element. And the idea is that the girls sign up for it. They do two practices a week for like six or eight weeks. And at the end of it, all the girls run a 5k together. And it's a real 5k, not just one.

Matt Strain [00:23:24]: For the girls on the run, they do like, like a community 5k with people from all over. So needless to say, they don't just turn third to fifth graders loose in a crowd of grown adults. Each girl is required to have a running buddy. Now, the girls are welcome to choose some of the coaches. They're welcome to bring anybody they want. My daughter asked if I would be her running buddy, and I'm not gonna lie, I Teared up. I was so absolutely touched. I'm like, absolutely.

Matt Strain [00:23:48]: I will do that. We're gonna do it. It's gonna be great. And the two of us went and we ran it. We had a great experience. I've got amazing pictures of the whole thing. She's got glitter on her face and they do happy hair where they put like little hair extensions and barrettes that are fun colors. And they put temporary hair dye on the girl's hair so that they can make a big thing out of it.

Matt Strain [00:24:11]: And we did this 5k. And on her very first ever time running a 5k for practice with the girls on the run fold. She ended up doing it in a little over an hour, which for those who aren't familiar, It's a, a 3.1 mile run. An hour's a long time, but again, she's got short legs. So that's what I went into the race expecting. We finished the race, the two of us, in 38 minutes and change. On race day, I was a little jealous because my first ever 5k was a little over 50 something minutes long. And it took me two years to build up to a sub 40 minute.

Matt Strain [00:24:47]: And she got it on her very first one. But she had a blast. And we came home that night and she informed me, that's it, I want to sign up for a kids triathlete. And I said, are you sure? And she's like, absolutely. I'm like, all right, I'm gonna sign us up, but you're committed once I push this button. And she's like, I'm gonna do it. So we found a local. Well, I say local, it's gonna be about a two hour drive away, but we're, we've got a little vacation planned around it, but we're gonna do a triathlon where they're doing an adult triathlon that starts at 7 in the morning and then at 9 in the morning they're doing a kid's TR, which is significantly shorter distance.

Matt Strain [00:25:23]: But again, the idea is to get the kids involved in this when they're young so that they learn to enjoy it and continue doing it throughout their lives and maybe move into it more in adulthood. I think the distances for her race is it's 100 yard swim followed by like a two mile bike ride and then maybe like a half a mile or so on the run. Whereas the adult version of it for the same thing is going to be 3 or 400 yards swimming, followed by like a 13 mile bike ride followed by a 5k or 3.1 mile run. But her big thing is that she wants to compare where I place in my age group to where she places in her age group to see who's better. My answer is it's going to be her because she is young and has a whole lot more endurance than I do. But I'm just excited that she wants to share this with me. Since then we've gone out, we've gotten her a bike that's like multi speed and all the rest of it that actually fits her. Took two tries to find one.

Matt Strain [00:26:22]: The first one fit her but she couldn't reach the brake. And you do need to be able to use the brakes on the bike. So we found it, we found a second one that she could reach the brakes on and mine's hanging on the wall behind me. And again, it's really nice to be able to look up on like a Saturday afternoon and decide that we're gonna have dad daughter time. And the two of us grab our bikes and our helmets and put some water in the water bottles and we go out and hit a local green one and we go ride bikes for a while while. And we don't. I mean yeah, we chit chat a little bit again. For anybody who's ever done like training riding, at a certain point it gets harder to talk because you're tired and huffing and puffing.

Matt Strain [00:26:59]: But we make pit stops and we can talk during that time. But honestly, it's just nice to have an 11 year old daughter that wants to spend time with me because again we've entered that age. I've been told multiple times that I am cringe and I'm sure it's going to get worse as she moves into middle school school. But I found something that we can share and that we can bond over and I want to make sure it stays that way.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:23]: You know, it's always so important to be able to find those things that you can share together. My oldest daughter and I, we cycle together, we run together, we enjoy hiking and getting outside. My youngest daughter and I do other things because her interests are not the same. Our kids are different and you have to figure out what it makes them light up and allow for them to many times drive the boat per se. So it is great to hear that you found some of that path for yourself with Lily and being able to create those special memories and special bonds together. We always finish our interviews with what I like to call our dad connection six where I ask you six more questions to delve into you and your relationship. With your daughter a little bit more. Are you ready?

Matt Strain [00:28:07]: Sure.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:28:07]: What's one word that describes your relationship with your daughter?

Matt Strain [00:28:12]: Powerful.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:28:12]: What's the best piece of dad advice you've ever received?

Matt Strain [00:28:16]: Nobody's perfect that you're gonna make mistakes. Roll with it. Admit your mistake. Apologize. If you need to apologize to your kids for the mistakes that you make and don't make them again. The same kind of things that we try to teach our kids.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:28:31]: What's one activity that you and your daughter love doing together?

Matt Strain [00:28:34]: Oh, definitely riding bikes.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:28:35]: Now, if you could give your daughter one life lesson in a single sentence, what would it be?

Matt Strain [00:28:40]: Be you don't change for anyone.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:28:42]: What's one thing you've learned about yourself since becoming a dad?

Matt Strain [00:28:46]: That there's so much more to life than just me. I know it's cliche, but prior to having kids, so much of my life was wrapped up around what I want, what I need, where I want to be. It was a lot of I, I, I. And when I became a father, suddenly that went away. Don't get me wrong, there are still things that I want out of life, but the priority is no longer me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:29:12]: And finally, what advice would you give to other dads who want to build a lasting and meaningful relationship with their daughters?

Matt Strain [00:29:20]: Find a place where you can meet your daughter where she is, not where you want to meet her. I got lucky in the fact that I had a hobby and my daughter decided that she liked that hobby. There wasn't any guarantees that that was going to be the case. It could have very well been that my daughter decided that what she really love, being a cheerleader or something. And if that was the case, I was going to be the best cheerleader dad out there. And I was going to be there with her. I was going to cheer her on and support her and share that with her. Because if you can share in what they love, that's where you're going to connect.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:29:56]: Well, Matt, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for sharing your own journey today. If people want to find out more about you, where should they go?

Matt Strain [00:30:04]: I have an Instagram AT account. It's called Daddy's Not Drinking where it's largely about being a dad. Lately there's been a lot of posts about scouting because my son got into Cub Scouts and has decided that dad needs to move into the leadership of the local scouting community. So there's a decent amount about that. There's also a lot about triathlon and non alcoholic beer and regularly about what sober life looks like because it's not quite as boring as I thought it would be. It's actually a whole lot better than I thought it would be. But, yeah, that would be the easiest place again for anybody else who's an at home dad. And for the record, that that doesn't mean just stay at home parents.

Matt Strain [00:30:44]: Anybody who is an involved dad and a primary caregiver to their kids, they are at home dads. I got involved with the national At Home dad network when my daughter was about 2, almost 3 years old, and my son hadn't been born yet. And that that community of dads has been a huge lifeline for me and anybody who's interested. Their website is literally at home dad.org they do a lot of great stuff, both virtually and then once a year in person, they do a big convention, which is literally professional development for professional dads. This year it's happening in San Antonio, Texas on September 11th through the 13th, but all the details are on the website. Great. And I'm also on Facebook just with my name, Matt Strain, if any of you are actually still on Facebook. I know it's kind of corny and all, but honestly, there's a whole lot of people that that's the connection I have with them.

Matt Strain [00:31:37]: And as much as I would love to just get off of it, there's things that Facebook is good at. You just got to ignore the noise.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:31:43]: Well, there's a lot of noise on all of the social media platforms, so that Facebook is not the only place where that happens, so. Well, Matt, I just want to say a thing. Thank you. Thank you again for sharing your journey today. We'll put links in the notes today, but I truly wish you all the best as you continue this journey that you're on with Lily and your son. And look forward to hearing more about not only this triathlon, but many to come in the future.

Matt Strain [00:32:08]: Thanks. And thank you for having me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:32:10]: That's a wrap for this episode of the dad and Daughter Connection. Thanks for joining us on this journey to build strong, stronger bonds and raise confident, independent daughters. Remember, being an engaged dad isn't about being perfect. It's about being present. If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe and share it with a fellow dad. And don't forget, you can find all our [email protected] until next time, keep showing up, keep connecting, and keep being the dad she needs.

Musical Outro Performer [00:32:41]: We're all in the same boat, and it's full of tiny, screaming passengers. We spend the time, we give the lessons, we make the meals we buy them presents and bring your A game. Cause those kids are growing faster than time goes by Just like a dynamite blast Calling astronauts and firemen Carpenters and muscle men get out and be the world to them Be the best dad you can be Be the best dad you can be can be.

In a special episode of the Dad and Daughter Connection podcast, Dr. Christopher Lewis sits down for a heartfelt conversation with Michele Filgate, editor of the new anthology What My Father and I Don't Talk About, and two of the book's contributors, Susan Muaddi Darraj and Joanna Rakoff. Their discussion dives deep into the intricate, emotional, and sometimes complicated relationships between fathers and daughters—and why these connections matter.

The episode opens with all three guests sharing luminous memories of their fathers: trips to bookstores and theaters, bonding over poetry, or learning life skills under a car's hood. These small moments, they reveal, helped shape their identities and instilled confidence, independence, and a profound sense of being seen. Whether it's Michelle's story of her dad sightseeing at news stations to support her journalism dreams, Susan's father teaching her to be self-sufficient, or Joanna recollecting her father's irrepressible optimism despite family tragedy, the stories resonate with authenticity and vulnerability.

A powerful theme throughout the conversation is the diversity—the "spectrum"—of fatherhood. The guests discuss how no two parent-child relationships are the same, and how the book's essays echo this truth. The episode also delves into how culture, memory, and generational dynamics play pivotal roles in shaping both closeness and distance within families. For immigrant daughters like Susan, a father's traditions and sacrifices root identity and values; for Joanna, storytelling was both a magic veil and a way to process hidden family pain.

The conversation is not just about nostalgia; it's about growth, honesty, and the hope that openness leads to better understanding. The guests reflect candidly on how writing about their childhoods and their fathers challenged them as both daughters and parents, inspiring them to be more transparent with their own children. Essential advice emerges: listen deeply, let your daughters into your world, and foster mutual trust.

The episode's warmth and wisdom are a reminder that strengthening father-daughter relationships isn't about being perfect—it's about showing up, being present, and truly listening.

Whether you're a dad, a daughter, or simply curious about family relationships, this episode promises thoughtful stories, practical advice, and a boost of inspiration. Listen now and discover new ways to connect and grow alongside those you love.

Ready to deepen your connection? Tune in to this moving conversation on the Dad and Daughter Connection podcast.

If you enjoyed this episode we ask you to take a moment to take our Dad and Daughter Connection Survey to let us know more about you as a dad. You can also sign up to get our newsletter to stay connected to our community and we will send items of interest to you to help you to be the dad that you want to be. Feel free to follow me on the following social media platforms: Facebook, Facebook Group, Instagram, LinkedIn, X.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:02]: Welcome to the dad and Daughter Connection, the podcast for dads who want to build stronger bonds and raise confident, independent daughters.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:12]: If you're looking to build a stronger bond with your daughter and help her grow into a confident, independent woman, you're in the right place. I'm Dr. Christopher Lewis, and the dad and Daughter Connection is the podcast where we dive into real stories, expert advice, and practical tips to help you navigate the incredible journey of fatherhood. In every episode, we'll bring you conversations that inspire, challenge, and equip you to show up as the dad your daughter needs. So let's get started, because being a great dad isn't just about being there. It's about truly connecting. Welcome back to the dad and Daughter Connection. I am so excited that you're back with us again this week.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:57]: As always, every week, we have a great opportunity to be able to learn and to grow and to find new ways to build stronger connections with our daughters. And that's why I come back every week, and I know you come back every week, is to find those new ways and to identify new thoughts and perspectives. Because every week I love being able to bring you different people with different perspectives that can provide you with some new tools for your toolbox that will allow you to think about things in different ways and to allow for you to be able to bring those new learnings to the interactions that you're having with your own daughters. And today, we've got three great guests. We don't always have three people here, but we have three great guests today, and I'm really excited to have them here. We're gonna be talking about a brand new book that is out there called what My Father and I Don't Talk About. And this is a book that brings together 16 different writers, and in each of these chapters, they are speaking to the journey that they had with their own father and really how it allowed for them to become who they were. So it is an anthology.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:09]: It follows the success of another book called what My Mother and I Don't Talk about, which was very popular when that came out. And it is definitely a nonfiction book that allows for you to get a better understanding of of that fatherhood journey and how that fatherhood journey impacts daughters in different ways. So we're gonna be talking about that book, but our guests today are the editor of the book, Michele Filgate, and then two of the authors, Susan Moady Dhiraj and Joanna Rakoff. I'm really excited to have all three of them here today to talk about their own journeys. And to help you in your journeys with your own daughters. Thank you so much for being here today.

Michele Filgate [00:02:56]: Thank you for having us.

Susan Muaddi Darraj [00:02:58]: Thank you.

Joanna Rakoff [00:02:58]: Thanks so much.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:59]: I'm really excited to have you here today. And whenever I have daughters on the show, I always love to start the conversation with an opportunity to get to not only know your father a little bit better, but also get a better understanding of your own relationship and how that impacted you in different ways. So one of the questions that I would ask all three of you is, as you think back to the relationship with your own father, what's one thing that your father did that made you truly feel seen, heard, and valued as a daughter?

Michele Filgate [00:03:34]: I would say that my dad used to take me to my local Barnes and Noble growing up and let me buy books. And that was always just. I loved that experience. He would go and he would go to the magazine stand because my dad would like to. He's a musician, and he would buy, like, Billboard Magazine, but he'd let me go browse the book section and buy a few books for me. And that was always a special experience to go to the bookstore with him and feel like he was supporting my bookworm habit and also creating the writer that I would become years later.

Joanna Rakoff [00:04:09]: Similarly, my dad was a former actor and comedian, and he had grown up in the theater. His father was a theater critic. The Yiddish theater, I should explain, but also the mainstream theater. And from my earliest childhood, I grew up around. Around New York. Took me to the theater with him. We went to the movies together, usually once or twice a week. He had an encyclopedic knowledge of actors, directors, screenwriters, playwrights.

Joanna Rakoff [00:04:34]: And after those jaunts, after going to a Broadway show, we would go to Chock Full of Nuts, which something only New Yorkers probably remember, and have a sandwich or Danish and talk through everything. We would sort of talk through what we liked, what we didn't like. And I think sharing his enthusiasms and his loves with me and bringing me into them, making me a part of them, was so integral to my becoming a person who was okay with being myself, if that makes sense.

Susan Muaddi Darraj [00:05:10]: That's so beautiful. My story is not that different, but my father never was able to go to college. He was an immigrant. He came to the United States in 1967. And I'm his eldest child and his only daughter, so I'm like the eldest daughter. We are a specific tribe of people, eldest daughters. And my father, even though he loves poetry and he writes poetry, was never really able to pursue that. He had to sort of work as soon as he arrived in the country.

Susan Muaddi Darraj [00:05:37]: And he became a car mechanic for many years. And so I grew up kind of like just around him at his garage, and I would help hand him tools and things like that. And one thing I remember specifically, we would talk a lot while he was working on cars. And I remember specifically when I started to drive. I have three younger brothers. And so I was the lucky one that I was the first to do everything right. Like, I was the first one that he taught to drive. When he was teaching me how to drive, I was a very good driver.

Susan Muaddi Darraj [00:06:04]: And then when I got my license, I thought, that's it. I have my license. I can do whatever I want. And he made me. He would open the hood of the car and he said, you're not driving until you can do these things. And he would make me learn how to change the oil, how to change a tire, how to jack up the car by myself. And I was like, why do I have to do this? I have a license. Can't I just get behind the wheel and drive? And what he was teaching me was he told me, I want you to always know that you're capable and that you have to be independent and that you are able to do these things, like, nothing should ever make you afraid.

Susan Muaddi Darraj [00:06:41]: And I don't remember any of my other friends in school having their father do that, which at the time I thought was not a great thing. But now I. And I realize I always grew up thinking I was capable. I never once in my life imagined I was incapable of anything. And I think it's because of the way that he treated me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:59]: All three amazing stories and definitely so important to build that confidence in our daughters in that way. I guess looking back, as you think about, again, your father, was there a moment where your dad's support or guidance had a significant impact on your growth or your confidence. And it may be similar, Susan, to what you just said, or maybe something different.

Michele Filgate [00:07:24]: I have a really vivid memory of my father, really encouraged my love of journalism. So in college, I was a journalism major. And when I was a kid, we were at Subway sandwich shop, and he saw Carol Jenkins there, who at the time was one of the anchors on NBC in New York City. And I grew up in a small town in Connecticut, an hour outside of the city. So he brought me over to. To meet her, and she invited me to come to NBC and shadow her for the day with my father. When I was probably 10 years old or 11. I can't remember the exact age, but that became a really important relationship for me.

Michele Filgate [00:08:02]: And it was so special that I got to do that with my dad. My dad always loved watching the news, and he wanted to support whatever I was interested in doing. So he came with me. And I still remember, you know, us getting a picture together with Carol Jenkins and Chuck Scarborough and Al Roker and it was. And Sue Simmons, who was there at the time, too. And it was such a pivotal experience for me. And then I ended up going on to be an intern at 60 Minutes when I was in college for Ed Bradley and two of his producers. And after college, I worked for the CBS Evening News with Katie Couric for my first job out of college.

Michele Filgate [00:08:41]: So I just vividly remember, like, once I was there, how much my father's influence and voice was in my head. I was so nervous the first day as an intern, and then again the first day, this job right out of college where I'm the production secretary helping organize Katie Couric scripts. And I kind of felt like I was in Broadcast News the movie. I was so excited. And my father wore a CBS News hat and was bragging about me to all of his friends. He was just really proud of me. And so whenever I feel. Felt really scared or nervous, I just remembered that I just heard my dad's voice in my head.

Michele Filgate [00:09:20]: I felt like he was there with me, just like he was there with me when I was a little girl going to visit Carol, who became such an important mentor to me as well. So I feel like my dad helped connect me, helped set me on the path for building my confidence in myself, and that was invaluable.

Susan Muaddi Darraj [00:09:36]: I remember when I was in high school again, I grew up in a very working class family, and there was. We just did not have a lot of money to go around. And so the question of college was always. There was always a big question mark on that situation. I had three siblings younger than myself, and there was a lot of talk in immigrant families when people are sort of struggling to make it. There's always this question of to whom should we throw our resources? Should we. We have four children. Can we give a lot of money to one to go to college? How can we work that and be fair? And I graduated at the top of my class, and I was excelling in English and literature studies.

Susan Muaddi Darraj [00:10:13]: And my father had bought me a typewriter at one point, which was a big deal to have a typewriter when I was younger. And then later he bought me a word processor. I remember it was like this thing with a little Tiny screen. It was like a big deal for me to have one. And he said, this is for you to type your stories and your essays and because you're going to be a writer. But when it was time, when I was graduating from high school, there was a lot of talk in the wider family about. People would tell my father, maybe you shouldn't send her to. You should save the money for the younger children.

Susan Muaddi Darraj [00:10:44]: And he asked me, do you want to go to college? And I said, yes. And he said, okay, well, we're going to make it work. And we did, and he did. And he took on extra shifts, and my mother worked as well. And so I'm very grateful that they believed in me. It's a very surprising thing. I'm the first girl in my entire family to go to university. It was a really big deal for us as a family, as a wider community.

Susan Muaddi Darraj [00:11:06]: So I'm very grateful for his support in me and his belief in me.

Joanna Rakoff [00:11:10]: Oh, my God, Susan, I'm, like, about to cry. What I have to say about my father is so much less cataclysmic than either unmomentous than either of the things you two discussed, but I'll just say so. I was born in 1972, and my parents were, for the time they were, you know, kind of geriatric. They were in their 40s. And a year before I was born, my parents had lost two children, my older brother and sister, who were 12 and 14. And I had one. Their oldest, my oldest sister was still around, so she was 18 when I was born. And so I was born into this family that had just suffered this horrible, horrible loss.

Joanna Rakoff [00:11:51]: And I grew up not knowing about this loss. But, and this is the important part, my mother was, of course, incapacitated by the loss of these two children. And she was a person who I found out as a grownup had suffered a lot of loss prior to this and had had a pretty. This is what my essay is about. Had had a pretty difficult upbringing, but my father was, you know, he had been a comedian. He is a very, by nature, cheerful, buoyant, incredibly resilient person. And he was able to bring that cheerfulness, that good humor that what my mom would later call, after he died, the shining light of his love into every aspect of my day. And I don't know what I am by nature.

Joanna Rakoff [00:12:42]: Like, I don't know if I'm resilient by nature. I don't know if I'm cheerful by nature at all, because I think being raised by him led me to Be a person who felt that I could face anything, that I could overcome anything. A friend of mine once described me as someone who could always spin straw into gold. And. And I was shocked when she said that. But while writing the essay from Michelle, I thought about the ways in my father's approach to life and the ways in which he was always there for me and the ways in which he was never afraid of strong or negative emotions in a way that my mother would just shut down. Like if I started to cry, she would say, stop crying. Stop crying this instant.

Joanna Rakoff [00:13:28]: Stop crying right now. Stop crying. And my father would just hold me in his arms and listen to what was wrong. So more subtle, but something.

Susan Muaddi Darraj [00:13:37]: Now I'm crying.

Joanna Rakoff [00:13:39]: Me too.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:41]: I really appreciate all three of you sharing those stories. Now I think I'd love for you to reflect back and think about that perfect day. If you could spend an entire day still with your dad doing anything, what would that look like?

Susan Muaddi Darraj [00:13:55]: So my father, as I said, he loves poetry. And I'm so lucky to have my father. He just turned 80 in December, so he loves poetry. And he has committed to memory entire poems and Arabic poems. His first language is Arabic. Just like massive quantities of poetry that he can just call up. And he told me once I do that because when I was working in my shop, I would just recite poetry to pass the time as I was working, I couldn't stop and consult the book. So I just committed it to memory.

Susan Muaddi Darraj [00:14:26]: So his memory is incredible. And I remember when I was growing up and I was still living in my parents home, he would walk around the house just kind of reciting poems and he would stop me, I would be walking from like my bedroom to the bathroom and he would say, susan, stop, listen to this stanza. And he would like recite the stanza. And at the time when I was a teenager, I was like, I really need to do my hair and get to school. Like, I have things to do. But now I think if I could spend the whole day with him, I would just sit and listen to him. I wouldn't even say anything. I would just listen and let him recite poetry to me.

Joanna Rakoff [00:14:59]: My dad passed away a long time ago, and in his final years, he had a neurological ailment that is not that well known, but it manifests as Parkinson's. Like if you met him, you would think he had Parkinson's, essentially. And so he was radically incapacitated in his last year. And so when I think about, like, if I could spend a day with him, I. I think if I Could spend a day with the him before this disease wrecked him. He was a person who was so adventurous and active, and he loved to travel. He traveled all over the world. He joined the Air Force right after he finished dental school.

Joanna Rakoff [00:15:37]: And when he enlisted, he wrote on his application, he got drunk when he filled it out, and even though he wasn't a big drinker and wrote, I am only joining if you will send me somewhere in Western Europe in all caps. And so they sent him to Germany, and he used the two years that he was stationed there to travel to every single country in Europe except Spain and Portugal. I don't know why. Maybe he just didn't get there. And so if I could spend just one day with him, I think that I would spend it doing as many of the things that he loved to do. Like, he loved to play golf and tennis. He loved to take long walks in the woods. He loved to hit a handball against a court.

Joanna Rakoff [00:16:15]: Like, he was really. He was a huge athlete. He played college basketball for City College. I would spend some time doing something like that with him, despite having not inherited his athletic ability. I would go to the driving range. He loved food. I would take him to eat a pastrami sandwich and a pickle, and then maybe I would take him to the movies and then get ice cream and talk about that movie and what was terrible in it and which actors were miscast and which were not and what scenes he would rewrite. And I would then take him to spend the rest of the day with as much of our family as I could.

Joanna Rakoff [00:16:52]: He was really, really close, even with my mom's side of the family, with her cousins, and he loved nothing more than a massive family gathering.

Michele Filgate [00:16:59]: I'm gl. I'm not wearing mascara right now during this podcast recording because didn't expect it to get so emotional listening to Joanna and you, Susan. Oh, my gosh.

Joanna Rakoff [00:17:10]: Same.

Michele Filgate [00:17:11]: Yeah. My father is still around, too, but I think that a perfect day would be going to a place that is no longer a place we can go to for us. So it would be. My grandmother and I wrote about this in my essay for the book. My grandmother, my dad's mom, passed away in 2019, and her home, she was the matriarch of the family, and her home was the gathering place for our family. And the house no longer belongs to our family. But when my parents were still married, when I was really young, we lived with my grandmother there. So that is my childhood home, and it was on a lake, and it now belongs to a new family.

Michele Filgate [00:17:53]: And that's still so hard to wrap my head around. And I think, and I know that it's hard for my dad, too. Like, he's talked to me about driving past it and seeing, like, the house and the feelings, how emotional he gets seeing the house and knowing it no longer is in our family. And I think about our family home videos, how my dad was so obsessed with On Golden Pond, the movie that he somehow. I don't even know how he did this, except he had a recording studio, so he must have figured out how to do this. But he put on our home videos from, like, this was back in the 90s. He put, like, this soundtrack from On Golden Pond, like, over images of, like, me and my dad and I have siblings as well, and, like, of us walking down the road toward that lake. Windwing is what it's called.

Michele Filgate [00:18:40]: And so I think that a perfect day with my dad would be watching that movie again On Golden Pond, because it just makes me think of my childhood and the beauty of that lake. And it would be going for a walk around the lake with him and also driving to a place that no longer exists. A lot of my core memories from my childhood are my dad driving me to the. This little market that was called Peach Lake Market in nearby. In North Salem, New York, like, just over the border of Connecticut. And it was this little country market store where I would get a bacon, egg and cheese sandwich, and I'd buy an Archie comic or Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. I'm really showing my age here. And I feel like there was something about the containment of the car.

Michele Filgate [00:19:24]: Like, that was where we could just be ourselves with each other. It was easier than, like, sitting down and having a conversation, you know? And so I would. I would do that. I would spend a day doing that, of going to a place that no longer exists except in my mind, and a home that still exists, but is no longer in my family.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:45]: I want to transition into talking about the book. And each of you have talked a little bit about the stories with your own dad. And in the book, you bring those stories to the forefront. And, you know, as an author, myself, as someone that has gone through that process, I've been an editor as well. So I truly appreciate the work, Michelle, that you put into bringing all of those different writing styles, different stories together. And I guess, Michelle, first, before I even talk about your essay that you submitted, you know, this book follows the success of the book that I mentioned earlier. What my mother and I don't talk about. Why was it important for you to create a companion volume that focused on fathers.

Michele Filgate [00:20:29]: It felt like a natural fit. And also while I was touring around the country for the first book back in 2019, and then when the book went viral twice on TikTok, in those viral social media posts and when I was on tour, I kept hearing from people again and again saying, I want a book about fathers. I need a book about fathers. So. And I also feel like we're now in a time where there is a focus on fatherhood and looking at it in a more nuanced way, we're starting to see, even in pop culture, we're seeing new portrayals of what fatherhood can look like and allowing men to be more vulnerable and to kind of break the mold of what fatherhood like has traditionally always looked like. So I wanted to have a book that looked at the wide spectrum of different experiences with fathers. And I felt like that was really.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:21:21]: Important in reading the book and in looking at all of the different essays you had to curate all of those. As an editor, what themes or contradictions about fatherhood surprised you the most across that contributions?

Michele Filgate [00:21:37]: A lot of people have asked me about what has surprised me. I feel like as a writer and a reader, as a. And as a human, nothing has really surprised me just because I expect fatherhood to not look just one way. Right. I expect to see a lot of different versions of fatherhood and what fatherhood can look like. But I think it's more just that the individual essays that all the authors and this book really moved me with how open they were and how vulnerable they were on the page about portraying their own experiences. And I felt like everyone was really generous with writing about their father, and it allows the reader to really get to know their father. And I think it's so hard to turn a parent into a character on the page that then a stranger is going to read.

Michele Filgate [00:22:27]: And I think that's a very difficult and challenging thing to do about someone who. Especially if it's someone who you knew really well. And so I think, for me, again, I don't know that I was surprised, but I was just moved by all of the different essays in here, whether the person had a good relationship with their dad or a terrible relationship. And there are a variety of pieces here, so there's something that will speak to everyone, I think.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:54]: Now, your essay, called Thumbs up, captures the fragmented but affectionate way that you and your father communicate, almost like as you kind of talk about two frogs on a lily pads. How did that image help you understand the rhythm of your relationship with him.

Michele Filgate [00:23:10]: Yeah, I mentioned that the, you know, we're. Because we both have adhd, that it is like we're two frogs on lily pads when we're talking and we're always skipping from topic to topic. That helped me understand the. The ways in which we communicate and we don't communicate and that these texts my dad sends, these messages he sends me on Facebook or the texts he sends me on my ph, or these phone calls, because that's a lot of what my piece is about, and it's called Thumbs up after his favorite emoji. He loves to use the thumbs up emoji. I've learned that these are his ways of showing his love. And I often don't have deep conversations with my father, and I'm okay with that because I know that this is how we communicate and this is how we show our love for each other is through these quick phone calls, these quick messages where he. He's telling me to watch out for sharks when I'm not anywhere near the ocean.

Michele Filgate [00:24:02]: I've really come to appreciate just his sense of humor and his quirkiness and the ways in which he shows his love. And ever since my Uncle Jim took his own life in 2019, he was my dad's best friend, and he's really tried to fill that hole in his life by calling his three adult daughters all the time. And so a lot of times at very inconvenient times, like when I'm in a zoom meeting, I'm surprised he hasn't called right now recording this podcast, but I think that that image of the frogs really helped me also with just structuring my essay, because it does kind of leap from section to section.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:24:38]: You know, the loss of your uncle definitely reshaped your father's behavior based on what you wrote. And your piece becomes quite a quiet elegy to sibling connection. How did witnessing that relationship affect how you view your father now as a man, a brother, and a dad?

Michele Filgate [00:24:58]: My uncle was younger than him. My dad was the oldest of four boys. But I feel like my uncle kind of took on the older brother role with my dad a lot. And so with Uncle Jim gone, I think my dad has really had to take on that older brother role for the first time. In some ways, it was everything to me because I saw that deep, unconditional love he had for my Uncle Jim is similar to the deep, unconditional love he has for his daughters and his son. And so it was an important thing for me to witness. And going through that grief together was heartbreaking with the loss of Uncle Jim. And then Mimo a few months.

Michele Filgate [00:25:41]: She died three months after. Meemo was my grandmother, as she died three months after Uncle Jim. So our family went through this really terrible year, personally. But it also made me realize how important our memories are. They're everything, right? Thinking about what we're talking about today, even with Susan talking about your dad memorizing these poems, I think our memories are so crucial. They are part of our legacy, which is why it's so devastating when people lose their memories, because memories are such a core part of us and also the objects that we have. I write about that a lot in my essay, too, that my father kind of has his shrine in his office. And I think a lot of dads are like this, like these objects that remind them of their unique.

Michele Filgate [00:26:26]: And I have kind of inherited that as well, because it's these things that become sort of totems that remind me of that unconditional love from my father, from my grandmother, from my uncle.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:38]: Now, toward the end of your essay, you reflect, like you said, on memory, on keepsakes and preserving scent or feeling through physical objects. What role do these rituals of memory play in how you understand your father's and your own emotional legacy?

Michele Filgate [00:26:54]: I think memories, they help us reflect on what we've been through, right? And also, as we're holding on to memories, they're kind of shifting, too. I talk about this as a teacher when I teach writing. When we're writing about our own lived experience, we kind of change that memory a little bit when we write it, because then our memories become the story that we told rather than just that lived experience, rather than just that memory. And so I think that our memories are transformed when we tell them, whether we write them down or when we're sharing them with others, they're like living memories. They're reshaped somehow. So I think about that a lot, too. And that kind of goes with this idea, too, that I feel like everyone in this book and in the first anthology, if you ask them to write about their same parent five years from now, that what they write might be very different based on where they are in their lives and how their relationship has changed.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:50]: Now, Susan, you wrote a piece called Baba Peels Apples for Me. And your piece delves into, as you mentioned earlier, the eldest daughter syndrome in a Palestinian American household. How did your father's cultural expectations shape your early sense of responsibility and identity?

Susan Muaddi Darraj [00:28:09]: So I think it took me a long time to understand that my father is actually. He's essentially a refugee, and he's been through a lot of trauma, and he's experienced a tremendous loss, which is having to leave his homeland. And that in that loss, like, you know, there's a lot committed to memory, as you said, Michelle. Like, I mean, I grew up hearing stories about my father and his childhood. In fact, when I've gone to his village, you know, I can actually look at an older building and I can say, oh, that's where Ibn Musa and my father played together. You know, I know these stories so well. It's almost like he's used his memory as, like, a way of documenting these things to us. But also he felt that, like, our culture, even though we were Americans now and he was raising American children, essentially, he felt that our culture was a way to ground us in something.

Susan Muaddi Darraj [00:28:59]: And some people do that with different things. Like, some people feel that their religion grounds them in something. My father is not really religious. We're a Christian family. But he's not like, really, as he would say, he hasn't really completely bought the whole organized religion thing. He's not really into it, so. But he's a spiritual person. But he felt that culture is a way of grounding you in something that's real, so that you know who you are and who you are might change.

Susan Muaddi Darraj [00:29:22]: But he felt that America was a wonderful country, but it was just such a big country with so many different people and different ideas. And so if you don't have something to ground yourself in, you might get lost, and who you are might change. Like, you might learn about another type of identity or another value system that you prefer more. But at least you're starting with something that's solid. And so he raised us with what are essentially the cultural values that he was raised with. And I'm grateful that he did. I have. I've kept many of them, and I've raised my children with many of them.

Susan Muaddi Darraj [00:29:55]: And many of them I have just turned away from and decided they're not for me. And I think I'm grateful for that.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:30:01]: Now, you describe both distance and tenderness with your father like the scene of him peeling apples. How did writing this piece help you reconcile those emotional contradictions?

Susan Muaddi Darraj [00:30:12]: Well, I think the distance came from a lot of his fears. You know, my father, I think his greatest fear was that he would not be able to provide us with a life that was fulfilling. And he'd already lost so much that it was very important to him to provide us with a home and something that was lasting. So I grew up as the Eldest child, I think, being sort of the testing ground for those fears. It's hard to explain unless you've grown up with immigrant parents, that there's so much that they want to give you, and it's because they're afraid of losing it forever. Like, if they don't pass it on to you, like the language, the food, the values they feel if they don't pass these things on to you, these things are lost forever. And so the distance, what I learned as I became older, I just turned 50 this month. So as I became older, I learned.

Susan Muaddi Darraj [00:31:03]: Didn't take me till I was 50. I think I was about 30 when I realized that all that distance, that those tense moments were because he was afraid. And I think I said in my essay that we were kind of learning about living in America. At the same time. He didn't know American culture. I mean, he came here in 67. I was born in 75. And I'm very sure he and my mother planned to go back.

Susan Muaddi Darraj [00:31:25]: Like, they were waiting to be able to go back, but they were told they could never go back. And so to their shock, they realized they were going to be raising a family in this country that they were still not familiar with. And that's very scary. And that's where the tension and distance comes from. But my father is a very loving and openly loving person. I mean, I never. And my children never see my father without getting big hugs and kisses on the cheeks. And he's very, very emotional, and he shows his love in lots of different ways.

Susan Muaddi Darraj [00:31:53]: But he also is very direct and says, I love you. Sometimes he'll just text me and say, I love you. I hope you're having a good day. I mean, I'm very lucky to have grown up like that.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:32:02]: Speaking about those words, you mentioned the importance of language. How your father used Arabic endearments but also demanded silence or obedience. How has language, or lack of it, defined your relationship with him?

Susan Muaddi Darraj [00:32:18]: You said he demanded obedience. Even if it's interpreted like that. I would say even those things were because of his fears. Right. So, for example, he never wanted me in high school to date because he thought that dating was going to distract me from my studies and I would not have time for my studies. And then what would happen if I. I. And he didn't want me to go out late because he knew that his co workers, that their children would be out late.

Susan Muaddi Darraj [00:32:45]: And he would hear stories about how they came home drunk or they had car accidents. And this was like a major fear. Like, this was something that when I have teenagers myself and I worry about these things. But I think for him, this was such a shocking thing that he was afraid that I would be harmed or I would. So and so he clamped down. Right. The language issue comes into play, I think, because he always spoke to me in Arabic, and sometimes when I was angry, I would answer him in English. Every immigrant, every child of immigrants knows that trick.

Susan Muaddi Darraj [00:33:16]: It's the most passive aggressive thing you can do if your parents are immigrants. But I think that his real true self came out when he was speaking in Arabic. Like he could find the exact words he wanted to use when he was using his own language. And he speaks fluent English, of course. He speaks it with a very heavy, very charming accent, which everybody loves when they talk to him. They're very charmed by it. But Arabic is definitely the language in which he best expresses himself and where all the nuanced things he wants to say are made clear when he speaks in Arabic.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:33:49]: How do you see your role as a parent now, especially when reflecting on the inherited patterns from your father's parenting style?

Susan Muaddi Darraj [00:33:57]: Well, I'm raising an eldest daughter, and there are maybe some responsibilities I'm very careful not to. To not to put on her, although I do find myself really liking her. And she's like my. I call her my vice president because an eldest daughter. And maybe this is true for eldest sons too, I don't know. But there really is a sort of like second in command kind of energy that we bring to the table, I think, like my daughter, really. A lot of times if I need something, I don't even have to express what I need. She kind of looks at me, she says, oh, let me go to the car for you, or, or, hey, I can go pick up my brother.

Susan Muaddi Darraj [00:34:33]: Let me do that for you. So there's like this energy that she brings that I think my mother has said I had the same vibe when she was raising me. So that's kind of like a remarkable thing. But I try not to lean on that too much. It's easy to do it, but I try not to. I try to share with my children the values that I've kept from my upbringing, especially the value of, or the belief in themselves as capable people, no matter what they need to do, that they are capable people, that even if they. They fail, they can learn something from the failure. That's something my father taught me for sure, that even if you fail, there's a lesson you take from that and the next attempt will be a smarter attempt, a more strategic Attempt, whatever it might be.

Susan Muaddi Darraj [00:35:16]: So I think I've passed that on to my children. I hope I have. We'll see what they write about me in 25 years.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:35:22]: Now, Joanna, you wrote a piece called the Storybook Childhood, and your essay paints your father as a storyteller, both enchanting and elusive. How did his constant reinvention of truth affect your ability to trust narratives, both personal and professional?

Joanna Rakoff [00:35:40]: Growing up, I was not aware that there was an elusive. That he had an elusive relationship to truth. I just believed everything he told me and did really feel that I myself had kind of a storybook childhood. That title refers to my mother's childhood, but I sort of bought the Kool Aid. I think, below the surface, I knew that there was something awry, that I wasn't being told the whole story, and also that there were things within me and things happening in my life that didn't fit the narrative of the Storybook Childhood. But I myself sort of squelched them down to kind of fit my father's defining narrative for our family. As an adult, as I've slowly come to understand that the kind of predominant story of my childhood and of our family was not what it seemed, I think that it's not made me in any way less trusting of other people, but it has made me a critic, which is to say I mentioned my father, and I would go to movies and critique them after. My father was also, perhaps ironically, perhaps not a huge, huge reader who loved criticism.

Joanna Rakoff [00:36:52]: So he introduced me to Pauline Kael, the legendary film critic who he adored. He was a person who. He read the New Yorker every week, and he would read the Critic at Large section first. And so I then started doing that when I was maybe like 8 or 9 years old. I was very young, and my eldest child, who's 20, my son, who's not relevant to this podcast, he started doing the same thing in third grade. He started reading the New Yorker, the critics section first. And so I guess this is perhaps not a satisfactory answer, but I think that there's a way in which the kind of silent message of my childhood and my kind of coming of age and realizing that there was a lot below the surface was to regard everything in life with a critic's eye. And I think it's not a coincidence that I started life as a literary critic.

Joanna Rakoff [00:37:40]: I thought that was what I wanted to be. I wanted to be like Lionel Trilling or T.S. eliot, except not racist and a Nazi, whatever. But I wanted to be a kind of high literary critic. And then when it Became clear that I wasn't cut out, out for academia, that I didn't want to continue on and get my doctorate, that I couldn't write in academic language. I became a book critic, basically, and also did theater criticism, food criticism, stuff like that. I think that I view the world through this critical lens, always thinking about what's the counter narrative, what's the story below the story, and also, what's going on behind the scenes, how was this made, what happened? And also, and here I am giving you, like, five levels of one little thing also. What are the sociocultural ideas that were in the back of the writer, the showrunner, the cinematographer's mind that shaped every aspect of this piece of culture? I can't watch anything, read anything, be privy to any piece of art without thinking about all of these things at once.

Joanna Rakoff [00:38:40]: And I think that's really what happened to me from growing up in this family, where there's this one truth and then there were several of them, other truths lurking beneath it that were never spoken of.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:38:51]: Now you recount the storybook world your father created, often masking deeper wounds or realities. How did writing this piece help you uncover those layers of illusion?

Joanna Rakoff [00:39:03]: This is a really unsatisfactory answer. That seems to be my theme for this round of questions. But the actual sitting down and writing of the essay and having to face these truths about my father is actually what allowed me to uncover those truths. As in, so I'm writing a whole book. My new book, which I'm under contract for, which is overdue, which is called the Fifth Passenger, is about essentially uncovering family secrets. And it's much more focused on the secret about my late brother and sister who. Whose lives and death were kept from me, which meant that many, many other things were kept from me, which meant that I didn't understand anything about my family. I didn't understand why my mother would burst into tears when I walked into the room.

Joanna Rakoff [00:39:52]: I thought I was doing something wrong, that kind of thing. So it's focused on that. And in writing this essay, which is focused on another secret that plays into the book, in this particular book, I talk about my family, kind of of both my parents coming from a culture of secrecy for different reasons. My mom, you know, for the reasons that I discuss in the essay, that she grew up feeling ashamed of herself for existing. For listeners out there who, of course, haven't read the essay, my mother was born in 1930, and her father abandoned her mother in the hospital. And she was from a very small town. Her mother had moved to New York City, married, had her at a very young age, and was left with this infant and no one nowhere, no money, nothing. She had a big diamond ring, but that was it.

Joanna Rakoff [00:40:41]: And so she went back home to her small town. And it was almost as if my mother's father, her biological father, had vanished. My mother was given her family as her maternal family's last name. And I understand now was kind of regarded as kind of a social pariah in this conservative small town. You know, the child of a single mother. No one knew anything and no one had ever, ever seen her father. And there's much more to it. But.

Joanna Rakoff [00:41:07]: So she sort of grew up in this culture of secrecy, never talking about her father, never talking about her mother being a single mother, none of these things. And my father, on the other hand, was a red diaper baby. So his parents were communist. They were really socialists, but they were leaders in the Socialist party, they were labor activists. And during the McCarthy era, they didn't literally go underground, but they buried this part of their past. And my father has a 500 page FBI file, and he was an actual child when his, you know, he was either unborn or a child when his parents were engaged in these activities, but he still has that file. And everyone in my father's family, actually on both sides, has a huge FBI file. So no one ever spoke of this.

Joanna Rakoff [00:41:51]: I actually only found out the real truth about this when my grandmother died and I inherited her apartment and I found all these papers and I was like, what is this? And my mother was like, don't talk about it. So they both come from these kind of cultures of secrecy, which I'm trying to investigate in the book. But the real point of my mentioning all this is just that I think there is something in my personality, maybe there's something in everyone's personality in which I really maybe just didn't want to know all of this, even though I'm writing a whole book about it. And I wrote a gazillion page proposal that I want worked on for years. And I've been working on this book for years. Part of me just doesn't want to know. Part of me just wants to think of my family as this happy family and wants to continue to drink the Kool Aid. And so writing this essay for Michelle was really difficult.

Joanna Rakoff [00:42:37]: I really didn't want to write it. I really, really avoided telling the truth about my mom's childhood, about my father manufacturing these layers and layers, layers of lies about it. And I guess this is one of the things that Happens when you write memoir. I'm not. I'm really a novelist. I'm not a natural memoirist. Maybe I don't like to tell the truth. I don't like to uncover hard truths.

Joanna Rakoff [00:42:59]: But having to sit down and actually work on it, which I really did under duress, one of my closest friends basically, like, kidnapped me and brought me to her country house and like, locked me away until I wrote a draft of it. Forced me to kind of figure out my own feelings about this, and also helped me figure out out who I am as a mother and a wife. And what do I do? My husband read the essay. One of the. There were many drafts of it, but one of the earlier drafts, and he said, the thing that you're leaving out here is how you're culpable in this kind of family tradition of aggrandizing the past and aggrandizing your family and glamorizing your family members, including your father. And he was sort of saying, you're doing the same thing that your dad did for our kids. You're making your father and your mother into these larger than life glamorous figures. And I thought, oh, my God, he's.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:43:54]: Completely right, you know, in speaking about that and being a parent today. How has your father's fondness for storytelling influenced the way that you do communicate truth or fiction with your own children? And in writing this, has it affected or impacted or changed the way in which you now reflect and talk with your kids?

Joanna Rakoff [00:44:18]: Writing this really did change the way I talk with my kids, definitely. I think I made a conscious effort to be more transparent with them in every way, to not sugarcoat things, to not talk about my family and the past in sort of sepia toned images, to kind of go behind those. My parents were both very attractive people, and we have all these, like, glamorous photos of them and glamorous clothing, and my son loves to pull them out and look at them. And I feel like there's a sort of really powerful metaphor in that. In that those images only tell one part, one very small part of a huge emotional, socio, cultural, historical, economic history. And I think I really have become aware of the need to be as honest and to put things in context for my kids and to not exaggerate things in either direction. You know, to not sort of lapse into the kind of stories my dad told about his gritty childhood on the Lower east side, being chased by gangs and all of that. Like, to sort of try to tell them the truth as I know it, rather than Perpetuating these almost cinematic myths that of course have a lot of truth to them.

Joanna Rakoff [00:45:39]: My father wasn't lying to me about his childhood, about his family's life. He just was kind of leaving things out and making things more the way he wanted them to be or the more exciting, as exciting as they could be. So I try very hard not to do this. I think prior to writing this essay I was much less conscious of this tendency and bought into a little bit more of the stories I had been told and also felt, I think my parents really felt like they needed to protect me. In fact, I know that they did. The reason they kept this secret about my late siblings was a feeling that they needed to protect me. I eventually found out that my mother wanted me never to be known as coming from this tragic family. What had happened to my family was not just tragic, it was very publicly tragic.

Joanna Rakoff [00:46:24]: I now know. And we lived in a town, you know, everyone knew our family, we lived in the center of town. Parents were very active in all elements of the town, professionally and politically and. And my mother just didn't want me to have this specter chasing me. And that's part of the reason that she never told me about these things. And I think there's a layer of that to every aspect of what my parents told me about who I am and who our family was. And so I realized that part of that was generational, but that I had inherited that and that there were so many ways in which I tried to protect my kids, who I just want to mention, span in age between 9 and 20 with a 16 year old in between. So the 9 year old is really little.

Joanna Rakoff [00:47:04]: And it is okay to protect her from. From things. Certainly it's okay to protect all of them from things, but I think that I in general started giving them all a lot more credit for being able to understand things than I had before. So thank you, Michelle, for making me a better parent.

Michele Filgate [00:47:21]: It's really moving to hear, A little embarrassing for me.

Joanna Rakoff [00:47:26]: I used to be one of those people who was like, writing is not therapy. And now I'm like, maybe it's a.

Susan Muaddi Darraj [00:47:32]: Little bit, but it's kind of the thing about parenting I'm thinking about, like, we don't know what we're doing when we're parents. Like, we really don't. Like, that's what I think I learned about my dad is he didn't know how to raise children, especially in a different country. We're all still learning, we're all still getting better and fine tuning our Parenting skills. And I love hearing that. It's so interesting.

Joanna Rakoff [00:47:51]: Well, there's like, that Russian idea, the first pancake. I think the first person who mentioned it to me was M. Gessen, who used to be known as Masha Gessen, the writer and I introduced interviewed her so long ago, and she mentioned this concept of the first pancake, which is that the first child is the one where you're like, you have no idea what you're doing. You don't know if the griddle is too hot or too cool. So it could be burned, it could be undercooked and too pale. And then after that, all the pancakes turn out, like, perfectly browned and the right texture and that kind of thing. And you feel like, well, there is some truth to that. And hopefully the oldest one turns out.

Susan Muaddi Darraj [00:48:27]: Note, this is my eldest daughter thing. I'm telling you, it's real, it's true. Or eldest child syndrome. Yeah, that's so fascinating.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:48:35]: Well, I really appreciate all of you sharing your stories today. And we always finish our interviews with what I like to call the dad connection 6. And I usually ask dads these questions, but I'm going to ask you these questions as well. First and foremost, what's one word that describes your relationship with your own father?

Joanna Rakoff [00:48:52]: I feel like if I had to choose one word for my dad, the first thing that comes to mind is magical.

Susan Muaddi Darraj [00:48:58]: I would have to say it's an Arabic word, the word habibi, which a lot of people are familiar with. It just means my love. And it can refer to your significant other, to your child, to your parent. But it's a word I heard just growing up. Every single day I call my kids habibi. It's something we heard a lot. It captures so much, like, softness and tenderness. And that's the word that came to mind when you asked that question.

Michele Filgate [00:49:22]: I think I would say creative, because my father, like I said, he has a background as a musician and he had a recording studio, and he's also a very talented artist, just as a hobby, not something he's pursued. So the word creative, what's the best.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:49:37]: Piece of dad advice you've ever received?

Susan Muaddi Darraj [00:49:40]: It's kind of a question that my dad would say, he would ask us all the time if I would say, I can't do this. He would say, who said you can't? And then that would lead to, like, a larger discussion of you're telling yourself you can't, but you don't even know that you can't. So he would always say, who says you Can't. So it's advice in the form of a question. I think.

Michele Filgate [00:49:58]: I think for me, my father, I wouldn't say it's one specific thing he said, but he could always tell when I was with the wrong person. And it frustrated me because I didn't want my dad to weigh in on my love life. But he knew. He just knew. And so I wish I had listened to him over my many years of dating instead of just being scoffing and being like, it's my dad, he's not gonna be happy with anyone. I dare date. Because as soon as I met my husband, I just got married last year, he was immediately part of the family. And my dad loves my husband so much and Andy is like a son to him.

Michele Filgate [00:50:34]: So I think that I wish I had listened to my dad sooner.

Joanna Rakoff [00:50:38]: These are two kind of quotidian, pedestrian things. My family is not one for, like big proclamations or life changing pieces of advice or guidance. But we ate out a lot when I was a kid. I now know, I think, because my mom, mom was really not in the best state. And my mom somehow had this tendency, it was like she was a contrarian or something. So we would go to like a seafood restaurant in Maine and my mom would order a hamburger and it would be terrible. And my father would say, you gotta eat steak in a steakhouse. And there's a way in which, like, obviously this is just like very silly advice, but as the older I've gotten, I think about that all the time the way my mom always did that.

Joanna Rakoff [00:51:18]: This. We would go to a steakhouse and she would order fish and be like, this isn't good and this restaurant is terrible. And my father would say, you gotta eat steak in a steakhouse. And it applies to so many things and it, you know, almost like any situation that you get yourself into, there's a way in which it boils down to, you should eat steak in a steakhouse. Even with romantic partners, Michelle, it's like you can't expect someone to be someone they're not. But conversation. Conversely, my dad was a very mischievous person and a very adventurous person who. He was the person who you'd be on the beach in Hawaii or wherever, staying at.

Joanna Rakoff [00:51:55]: Not like the Four Seasons. And you'd take a walk along the beach and you'd see the pool at the Four Seasons and be like, let's just go in there and swim. And I'd be like, but dad, you know, we're not staying there. And he'd be like, they're not Gonna know. And you would. And it was almost always fine. Like, and he loved to go, shh, don't tell anyone. Like, don't tell anyone.

Joanna Rakoff [00:52:13]: And I definitely. The older I've gotten, the more I've taken that, shh, don't tell anyone in that there are so many rules you can break that will make your life better, but that won't harm anyone and maybe will help people. And it just lends your life a little bit of a spark, in a way. But it also. As a writer, I have this whole talk that I give that started as a commencement speech for college, and I now give it different MFA programs and whatever that is called, Break every rule. And I realized that it came out of my dad saying this to me. And as a writer, you really do have to throw out all rules when you sit down and that sort of blank screen or blank, blank legal pad is in front of you. So I feel like that, shh, don't tell anyone.

Joanna Rakoff [00:53:08]: Because no one's gonna know. No reader is gonna read your book and be like, oh, you're not supposed to have a lot of backstory at the front of the book. Like, no. You know, these rules that you learn, no one is ever going to know if you break them. They're just. If you write a great book or a great essay, they're just gonna be absorbed in it. Follow some rules, break all the others.

Susan Muaddi Darraj [00:53:26]: I love that so much.

Michele Filgate [00:53:28]: Me too.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:53:29]: Now I know. Susan and Joanna, you both have daughters. If you could give your daughter one life lesson in. In a single sentence, what would it be?

Susan Muaddi Darraj [00:53:37]: I would tell her, you don't have to fix everybody. You don't have to fix people. It's not your job to fix people. I think, and I say this because growing up in my family, I was always helping, and I was always the second in command, so to speak. And whenever there was something wrong, I would feel very responsible for it. And I'm still like that. I have students who will come to me. They may have disappeared midway through the semester, and then they come to me a month later, the semester's over, and they want to me to help them magically pass the class.

Susan Muaddi Darraj [00:54:07]: And I get really invested. I try. I think the older I get, the more I'm like, it's not my job to fix the world. Maybe all women need to hear this advice. It's not our job to do that. It doesn't mean you can't be nice and you can't be helpful, but you should not take it on as your responsibility. So that would be my advice.

Joanna Rakoff [00:54:24]: I think I'm torn here because there's so much I want to tell my daughters. But I think maybe the biggest thing that encompasses some of the others would be be don't let anyone's ideas about who you are or what you can do shape the choices you make with your life. I think I, as a kid, college student, a young person, really did. I think that I, in a sponge like way, absorbed what people were telling me about myself, like about the way that I looked, about who I was in the world, about what was possible for me. And I really did let those things affect me and affect, affect even some of my biggest choices in life. And in some ways they kind of contradicted the things that my father told me. But I let those outside voices affect me in such a deep and profound way. And it bothers me to this day.

Joanna Rakoff [00:55:19]: And I really hope that I can free my daughters from that and free them from allowing those outside ideas and voices to have them take the safer route, especially professionally, rather than kind of going for what they want.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:55:37]: As you think about your own relationship with your own father and you think about other fathers that are out there trying to build those connections with their daughters, what advice would you give to other dads who want to build a lasting and meaningful relationship with their daughters?

Michele Filgate [00:55:54]: I would say that I think it's easy for dads to get kind of embarrassed talking about quote unquote traditional girl things with girls. And I would encourage fathers to be more open minded about listening to their daughters and not just changing the subject or walking away or dismissing them. I would say I would love to see dads take their daughters seriously with, Whether they're talking about a crush they have or a movie star that they like or whatever, Even if it's something that they seem that they're not as interested in. Listen and take your daughter's interests seriously.

Susan Muaddi Darraj [00:56:35]: If I could piggyback on that, I would say, ask your daughters for advice yourself. Like, tell your daughters I had a bad day at work and this coworker said this thing to me. What do you think I should do? I think I should talk to him tomorrow. But what do you think? Ask her advice. Tell her about, don't make yourself the person who knows everything. Show her that you also have bad days and you would like to listen to her input. I remember my dad would talk to me all the time. I had a customer today who said this.

Susan Muaddi Darraj [00:57:02]: It really put me in a bad mood or I'm not sure what to do about your brother's. Wrestling schedule. He would talk to me and ask for my input. And I think it would make your daughter feel that her input matters. And she would never allow anyone in her future to dismiss her input or, or dismiss her opinion or point of view because she's used to having her voice be heard by the most important man in her life until that point.

Joanna Rakoff [00:57:26]: And really similarly, I of course have two things that I'll say very quick, but similarly I would say let them in, which is kind of saying the same thing as both of you. Like I'm just thinking about last night. My husband, who is my two older kids stepfather but is very close with them, he has all sorts of quirky interests and loves and like finds tremendous, tremendous excitement and humor and like the Eurovision Song Awards and that kind of thing. And loves to laugh and have fun and enjoy whatever he enjoys. And last night he was watching the Scripps National Spelling Bee and I was putting my younger daughter to sleep and he grabbed my 16 year old who you would not think would necessarily, if you knew her, you wouldn't think it would be her interest. But he was like, you have to watch this, it's amazing. And I came out of my younger daughter's room and heard that hysterically laughing and cheering and I don't know if you guys watched it, but they were just going crazy. They were like sarp and, and it was the most fun and just I think bringing your daughter in rather than that kind of conventional thing of like, I'm interested in basketball and I'm going to this game with my friends and we will drink beer.

Joanna Rakoff [00:58:33]: Realizing that your daughter can share your interests if you let her in and give her the chance and think about them in a kind of non conventional way and think about yourself in a non conventional way. But the other related thing I just would say is find every opportunity to laugh. You know, like listen to her stories from school when she comes home. Listen to all of her stories. You know, she might talk for two hours about things that happened at lunch that her friends did. And maybe you're kind of like zoning out and thinking about work, but don't really listen and find the moment when you can laugh about things and, and so she can laugh about them too.

Susan Muaddi Darraj [00:59:13]: And I just want to add one thing which is that these are all the things that we're mentioning are things that any father can do. Especially like fathers who are like working class fathers who don't like have a lot. Like fathers are always into this idea of being the provider and if they are not able to, like, financially or materially provide a lot for their children. And, you know, we live in this materialistic society. You can feel bad about yourself, I think, as a father, because you're not giving your kids the same things that other children are getting from their parents. And your kids will let you know that their friend has an apple watch, and they don't. But all the things that we're talking about are more lasting than those things. And they're things any father can do.

Susan Muaddi Darraj [00:59:53]: You don't have to be. You don't have to be making a quarter million dollars a year to sit and talk to your child or watch the spelling bee with them or chat with them and build those. Build that sense of trust and love with your daughter.

Joanna Rakoff [01:00:06]: And, Susan, just listening to you, I'm realizing that there's one thing that we're all saying which is just listen. Like, listen more than you talk. You know, if your daughter is talking to you about anything that's on her mind, like a problem with a grade, you know, not being the starter for the rugby team, like, whatever it is a dilemma that she has, you know, with, do I do this night or that night, or I didn't get this part in the school play. She doesn't need you to solve the problem for her. I think this is a thing that dads do. My own dad did not do this, but I see this in my life, this need to kind of solve a problem. Be like, why don't you just do this? Or, let's just do this, or, I'll just call the school. But that's not what they need.

Joanna Rakoff [01:00:45]: They just need you to listen. That's all they want, is for you to listen, to really listen. Not while looking at your phone, not while doing paperwork, not while, like, raking leaves. Like, to really, really listen. Which is, I suppose, why driving can be such a wonderful time. Dads and daughters.

Susan Muaddi Darraj [01:01:06]: And actually, if I can quote my mother here, one of my mother's favorite sayings is, God gave you two ears and one mouth because you're supposed to listen twice as much as you talk. She. She said that all the time. I don't know where she heard it, but she said it all the time. And I. She would say that to us when we were gabbing a lot, I think, but she said it in other, more appropriate moments. So listening. I think you're right, Joanna.

Susan Muaddi Darraj [01:01:29]: This is about just building a relationship through listening. And when you listen, you're really hearing and seeing your child as the beautiful individual that they are.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [01:01:40]: Well, I just want to say thank you to all three of you for being here today. Your words are so important and the relationship that you had with your own fathers and that you have with your own fathers is so powerful. I appreciate you sharing not only this journey with us today, but in the book. And Michelle, if people want to find out more about the authors in the book or the book itself, where should they go?

Michele Filgate [01:02:04]: Yes, I encourage them to buy the book from their local independent bookstore, but they can also go to my website and I have information about the book on my website. Michellephilgate.com.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [01:02:16]: Well, again, thank you so much for your time today for sharing your own journey with your fathers. And I wish you all the best.

Michele Filgate [01:02:24]: Thank you.

Susan Muaddi Darraj [01:02:25]: Thank you.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [01:02:25]: Thank you.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [01:02:26]: That's a wrap for this episode of the Dad and Daughter Connection. Thanks for joining us on this journey to build stronger bonds and raise confident, independent daughters. Remember, being an engaged dad isn't about being perfect. It's about being present. If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe and share it with a fellow dad. And don't forget, you can find all our episodes at dadanddaughterconnection.com until next time, keep showing up, keep connecting, and keep being the dad she needs.

Musical Outro Performer [01:02:57]: We're all in the same boat and it's full of tiny screaming passengers we spend the time, we give the lessons, we make the meals, we buy them presents and bring your A game cause those kids are growing fast the time goes by just like a dynamite blast Calling astronauts and firemen carpenters and muscle men get out and be the world you down Be the best dad you can be Be the best that you can.

Fatherhood is a journey filled with highs, lows, and countless unexpected turns—something this week's episode of the Dad and Daughter Connection beautifully illustrates. Host Dr. Christopher Lewis welcomes Steve Harris, author of Dads Like Us: A Survival Guide for Fathers Raising a Child with Disabilities, to share his personal story, hard-won wisdom, and practical advice for fathers facing one of life's greatest challenges: raising a child with special needs.

From the very beginning, it's clear this conversation isn't just for dads of daughters or even just for dads of children with disabilities—it's for anyone committed to being present, adaptable, and truly connected as a parent. Steve's authenticity shines as he reflects on meaningful moments with his sons, the heartbreak and resilience of navigating medical crises, and the importance of simply "being there."

One of the standout themes throughout the episode is the need for self-care as a caregiver. Steve reminds us that fathers, especially those facing long-term challenges, must take care of their own mental, emotional, and physical well-being. "The stronger we are as dads, the better dads we're going to be," he shares—a lesson learned through years spent in hospital rooms and therapy sessions.

The episode also tackles often unspoken emotions: grief for the future you envisioned, anger at situations you can't fix, and loneliness when you feel pushed to the sidelines. Steve offers compassionate advice: acknowledge your feelings, reach out for help, and remember you are not alone. He encourages dads to stay involved, advocate for their children, and celebrate the unique gifts and victories—big or small—that each day brings.

Perhaps most poignant is Steve's advice for those just starting this journey. In the first bewildering days after a diagnosis, he urges fathers to resist the urge to isolate, reach out to loved ones, and move through grief towards gratitude for the child in front of them.

For anyone on the path of parenthood—especially those facing extra challenges—this episode is a supportive, practical, and inspiring listen. Don't miss it. Tune in to hear how showing up, adapting, and loving unconditionally shapes both father and child.

Listen to the full episode of the Dad and Daughter Connection wherever you get your podcasts, and discover more stories and resources at dadanddaughterconnection.com.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:02]: Welcome to the dad and Daughter Connection, the podcast for dads who want to build stronger bonds and raise confident, independent daughters.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:12]: If you're looking to build a stronger bond with your daughter and help her grow into a confident, independent woman, you're in the right place. I'm Dr. Christopher Lewis, and the dad and Daughter Connection is the podcast where we dive into real stories, expert advice, and practical tips to help you navigate the incredible journey of fatherhood. In every episode, we'll bring you conversations that inspire, challenge, and equip you to show up as the dad your daughter needs. So let's get started, because being a great dad isn't just about being there. It's about truly connecting. Welcome back to the dad and Daughter Connection, where every week we have a great opportunity to be able to learn, to grow, to be able to become those fathers that we want to become for our children. And every week, we do that with an opportunity to be able to meet other dads, dads with different experiences that can share some of the things that they have learned to help you in the journey that you're on.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:16]: And it is a journey because every day is going to be a little bit different. Every day we have to work, work to build those relationships with our children. And it is important to be open to the idea and the thought that you have to put in the work. You've got to put in the work. You got to be willing to learn, to grow, to be able to be that dad that you want to be. And that's why every week I come back and I know that you come back to be able to learn from other fathers. And today we got another great guest. Steve Harris is with us.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:49]: And Steve is a father of two sons. And we're going to be talking about the journey that he went on and a book that he wrote called Dads Like Us, A Survival Guide for Fathers Raising a Child With Disabilities. And we're going to talk about his own journey. As I said, he had two sons. One of his sons has passed. And we're going to talk about that journey with his own sons, as well as the book and some things that you might want to think about, especially if you're raising a child with a disability. And I'm really looking forward to having him here today. Steve, thanks so much for being here.

Steve Harris [00:02:23]: Well, thank you, Chris. It's honor to be talking with you today.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:26]: Now, one of the things that I love doing at the very beginning is talking about you as a dad. And many times I talk to dads with daughters. You have sons. But many of the questions that I ask are very much related to just being a father. So I'm going to ask you some similar questions that I ask to dads with daughters, and we'll go down that pathway. So as you think back to the time that you had with both of your sons, what's one meaningful moment that you shared with them and what made it so special?

Steve Harris [00:02:55]: Wow, there have been so many. I have two sons, Andrew, who's now 37, and Matthew, who passed away, almost made it to his 40th birthday. So we had a long journey. And I can think of a moment with Matthew especially, I mean, comes to mind. First, sixth grade graduation. He had been able to be in school with a lot of special help and support from the teachers and paras there. They had a graduation ceremony. For some reason, Matthew was kind of verbal, not hugely verbal, but he could say things in moments that had a lot of meaning.

Steve Harris [00:03:24]: They invited him to come up to the podium and address his rather large crowd. I was kind of nervous watching that all taking place, but Matthew wheeled up to the microphone, had a big smile on his face, and just said thank you. And for me, that was an amazing moment. It was very simple. Maybe to others it would not seem like a big deal, but the fact that he had made it in his life through all kinds of physical challenges and that he would sit there in his wheelchair and say thank you and be grateful. Wonderful person. Meant a ton to me that he did that. Andrew played a lot of, we call them handicapped sports, but adapted sports in high school, became the co captain of his adaptive soccer team.

Steve Harris [00:04:02]: He was able to show some leadership and be a leader in a situation that was difficult. And I'm hugely proud of my boys. I'll say that I've got a million moments like that, but those were two.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:14]: As your sons got older and you continued to help to guide them in the journey that they were on and becoming the adults that they became. How did you balance guiding your sons while also giving them the independence that they needed to be able to grow into their own person?

Steve Harris [00:04:34]: Well, the situation that they faced, they both had inherited a pretty, very rare genetic condition called Polysius Mersbacher disease. We didn't know that right at first, but. And Matthew was also born with spina bifida. They had so many physical challenges and long hospital stays, and they've had a lifetime of tough stuff. I have tried to appreciate them as individual people, that they are unique persons, you know, made in the image of God, with a potential for their lives and trying to find out in lots of different ways what that potential could be, I guess. Chris, I've just tried to love them. I've tried to be there for them. I've tried to, through ups and downs, tried to show them that they are totally valuable, priceless people, as valuable as anybody else who walks the face of the earth.

Steve Harris [00:05:22]: That they're very special. And I can't think of one exact strategy I had other than to hopefully be their loving dad.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:28]: What are some intentional ways that you worked with your sons to strengthen that bond with them, especially during challenging times?

Steve Harris [00:05:35]: Well, I guess number one would be being there. That sounds kind of simple, but the sad truth is that I talk about it in the book and stuff and other places that dads of kids who are disabled, they have a unique journey. It's a tough journey. It means that we are. I don't know if you agree with this, Chris, but I think dads are kind of wired to be the fixers and the protectors of our kids, definitely. So when we get into the life that we live as the dads of children with disabilities, most of the time we can't be that. We can't be the fixer, we can't be the protector. And that can be frustrating.

Steve Harris [00:06:07]: It creates all kind of different conflicts and emotions for us. But I've tried to be there for them. Again. A sad statistic is that many dads don't stay involved in the lives of their kids when they are disabled, thankfully, as a small percentage. But just trying to hang in there. I think, number one, just being there has been a huge challenge and very important challenge for me in my life.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:29]: What would you say is a mistake that you made as a father and what did you learn from it about fostering positive connections?

Steve Harris [00:06:37]: Dads of kids who are disabled are caregivers. All dads are caregivers. But I think we're given a challenge to be a caregiver over a long stretch of time. It takes a lot. And I think a mistake I made early is maybe not taking care of myself, not realizing that if I was going to be the best dad I could be. I'm talking about a situation where Matthew was in. Lived in an intensive care ward of a hospital for the first year of his life. It was a very stressful and demanding experience.

Steve Harris [00:07:06]: It made it hard to live a really good, balanced life. And I think looking back, I should have taken better care of myself mentally, physically, emotionally, spiritually, right away. I. I think that sometimes in our quest to be great dads we may forget that we also have our own personal needs. And at times that sounds and feels selfish, and it sounds selfish to say that, but the stronger we are as dads, the better dads we're going to be. That needs attention. It needs taking care of ourselves, making good choices. Sometimes in the crisis moments, that is very difficult to do, but I guess that's one I would say.

Steve Harris [00:07:40]: I'm sure there are others. I'm sure there are many, but I'll mention that one right now.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:44]: Now, I know you mentioned the book, and as I said at the beginning, you wrote a book called Dads Like Us, A Survival Guide for Fathers Raising a Child With Disabilities. And I guess first and foremost, before I delve too deep into the book itself, give me the origin story of this, because I've written a book myself. I know how much time, effort, passion goes into these passion projects. But tell me about the. The journey and what made you decide that you needed to tell this story and that you needed to get it out into the world.

Steve Harris [00:08:19]: That's a great question. It's one that I have a Won't say. It's an easy answer, but I have an answer. My son Matthew, my first son, was born on October 13, 1980. It was a very exciting day in our lives. Our first child. Things in the hospital early on were just going beautifully, just perfect. When they discovered that Matthew had spina bifida, which is right away, things kind of came crashing down all of a sudden.

Steve Harris [00:08:43]: Was in a very precarious situation. They didn't know if he was going to make it out of the delivery room. Anyway. In that room was a number of nurses, but one of them, I noticed, was actually feeling quite excited and happy about the whole situation. And it struck me that she had that big smile on her face and she said, you know what? This is quite a coincidence. I'm taking a class on spina Bifida. Within about 20 minutes after they had rushed Matthew out of the room to take him by ambulance to another hospital for surgery, she came back to me and she said, do you remember I told you I'm taking that class on spina bifida? This is the textbook we have for that class. And she wanted to hand me this big, thick book and said, you might want to read this.

Steve Harris [00:09:22]: My first reaction was a textbook on spina bifida. I don't think I want to read it. I think I want to throw it at you right now, really, to be honest. But that moment, which was one moment of even a thousand of that day that I remember that moment planted a seed in me that what did I need at that moment as a dad, as a parent, to deal with the crisis that was unfolding for my son? It wasn't a textbook. I am a writer. I have been writing stuff my whole life. But anyway, even in the first couple of months after that, I thought, there should be something for dads in those moments. And I started thinking about the need for.

Steve Harris [00:09:56]: To write a book or a desire or whatever to write it. Now, it took me 40 years to pull it off because I kept trying and starting and stopping. And then I realized, you know what? Maybe I have to live this before I can write it. And that's exactly what happened over the years. Just learned a lot, experienced a lot, met tons of people, had experiences with my sons, like we all do as dads. But these were all in kind of challenging settings. I thought, I am going to write that book someday. Because I read a statistic recently that said that dads who had spent a significant time with their kids in an intensive care unit, 50% of them said that they did not feel like they were getting the information or support that they needed.

Steve Harris [00:10:34]: And I thought, I can relate to that because you're in a brand new world right away. So what is it those dads, dads like me, could need? And so I said, I'm going to write a book. I want it to be brief. I want it to be practical. I want it to be like a positive conversation between me and another dad saying, these are the. Some of the things you're going to face. Here are some of the ways that that will help. Here's my story.

Steve Harris [00:10:57]: It's not a memoir, but it's a lot of stories about my experience in those places. But basically to say, dad, you're facing a unique challenge. Is it going to be tough? You're going to make it. But here's some practical advice as you head into that world.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:10]: And you said, it is a brief, practical book. It is. It is a brief and practical book. As I was in reading through the book, I know your book really does talk about grief. Not for the child that we have, but for the expectations that we lose. How can fathers process that sadness without feeling guilt or weakness?

Steve Harris [00:11:29]: First thing I would say is, you are going to feel sad, you are going to feel grief. There's no shame in that. There should not be an embarrassment for that. We love our kids. They mean the world to us. So to see your child going through surgeries and physical disabilities, mental disabilities, there's just a ton of stuff to feel sad about. So I do feel sad. I will always have a sense of grief about it, but kind of move.

Steve Harris [00:11:51]: Grief doesn't go away. It evolves and changes. There's a writer, James Autrey, in his book about gratitude, says there comes a point in time when you have to stop grieving the child who is not there and celebrating the child who is there. That was a powerful statement for me. It's. It's not a one time thing, but it's letting go, realizing there's going to be sadness. But you move on and love the child that you have. You're sad because of some things that did not work out, sad for some dreams that never did come true.

Steve Harris [00:12:21]: But you have a wonderful, precious child in your life as your child and you're the dad who can love him for who he is. So I accept the sadness, deal with it and move ahead, I guess now.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:33]: Also in the book you write about the fact that many dads feel invisible in the care process. What advice do you have for dads who want to be more than just helpers, but who want to lead?

Steve Harris [00:12:47]: Right. We need to be there. We need to be good advocates for our kids. I talk in the book about the fact that dads of kids with disabilities will watch a parade of people march through their life right from day one. Doctors, nurses, therapists, social workers, counselors, teachers, paraprofessionals. There's just a parade. A lot, a lot of people come in. It is easy and I think there are some complicated reasons for this, but I think it's easy for dads to kind of be pushed off to the side.

Steve Harris [00:13:13]: There are times in the hospitals, for example, when, and I think there's some natural stuff going on here that moms are seen as the basic primary caregiving, nurturer person. Dads don't quite know where they fit in there. Sometimes the people are working with, the dads don't know quite where they fit. My advice or encouragement that I wrote about in the book was to dads that say, don't let that happen. Make sure you get at the front of that parade. Make sure you stay there. Make sure that you initiate communication with doctors and nurses that is needed. Make sure that people see you as active, involved and key caregiver in the situation.

Steve Harris [00:13:46]: So yeah, my encouragement to all of us dads is to hang in, in there and, and stay involved at the front of all that's happening with your child's care.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:55]: What were some of the most unexpected or we'll say joyful lessons that you learned from your sons. Maybe things that reshaped how you thought about parenting.

Steve Harris [00:14:07]: Both of my boys have faced immense physical and mental challenges. The disease that they have is progressive. It's incurable. It's been a journey of learning to take one day at a time and enjoy each day and to be thankful and grateful for each day. Sometimes we want our kids to succeed. We want them to be, you know, the star athletes and the best students and getting the big scholarships. And we have dreams for our kids. My boys have taught me that more about what's really important in life, what the priorities are in life, what's.

Steve Harris [00:14:41]: What are the most valuable things in life. I wrote a chapter in there about pride. You know, it's. It's different for dads like us. We find different things to be proud about, and yet we come away with a greater appreciation and love for our kids than we maybe we ever would have had before. One doctor told me that he said, you, son Matthew can't do many things. He can't walk, he can't talk, he can't eat normally. He can't really.

Steve Harris [00:15:03]: He can't do many things, but one thing he can do is stay alive. And Matthew had a determined spirit, a courageous spirit through all those things and even, even above that, it was a spirit filled with smiles. He had a smile that melted the heart, heart of every nurse he ever met. I never once heard Matthew in nearly 40 years express any kind of bitterness or anger or early on when he had more mental capabilities. There was nothing negative coming from him. He was in many ways the most content person I ever met. And yet he was living in a situation that was incredibly difficult for him, with scores of operations and what we would call limitations. But he had a spirit in him that was incredible and it was amazing to watch.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:45]: Now, the book also walks through some common emotions like anger, loneliness and fear. How can dads navigate those strong emotions without getting stuck or isolated?

Steve Harris [00:15:56]: I would say again, number one would be just to acknowledge that they're going to be there and you're going to go through these different emotions. Don't feel bad about that. Be aware of it. Don't let them become destructive in your life. I think it means having a sense of. We'll take anger, for example. I talk about sometimes get really quiet. They say that anger turned inward becomes depression, and that can happen.

Steve Harris [00:16:17]: But there's also dads who get angry and they have eruptions. They have. They have times when they just explode. And I compare it to volcanoes. They Say that the worst volcanoes are the ones that build up and build up and build up and then they finally blast. Whereas if there are volcanoes that kind of let off a little steam here and there, it's actually better because it doesn't build to a point that's so destructive. I think with anger, that can be true if you keep squashing it down, squashing it down. And all of us get angry about different things.

Steve Harris [00:16:45]: I think dads like us, we have situations in hospitals or with doctors and care decisions and things that kind of build up. But if we can learn to express some of the anger in really small doses, it's better than waiting for some kind of a bigger explosion. That's one example of one emotion.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:00]: Now, you talked at the beginning of this about your reaction to your first son being born in the feelings that you were feeling. What's your advice to dads who are listening, who just got the news that their child has a disability? What should they do in the first 24 to 48 hours?

Steve Harris [00:17:20]: That's such a great question. And that's exactly why I'm thankful that it worked out that this book got written, because those first 24 hours, that first week is really crucial. So thank you for asking that question. What I would do if I was back there today, if today was day one, I would fight through the temptation that comes to isolate, to pull back. Sometimes there's such a swirl of emotions that you really can't function. You're kind of in a mental. Mental fog. Take a breath, make sure that you're, you're.

Steve Harris [00:17:48]: You fight through the. Any temptation you have to isolate, talk to your wife, talk to people that you have that you're close to. Make sure that you make some connection with them. You're going to need people, and yet it comes at a point when you start to push them away. And that's a dangerous point. So I would say, number one, pray. Number two, connect with the people that you love who will be there to support you.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:11]: Now you close your book with gratitude and pride. What would you say now to your younger self sitting alone in that hospital waiting room?

Steve Harris [00:18:20]: I'd say you are walking into a world that you do not, did not expect. You had hopes and dreams of having the normal kids that everybody else seems to have. That's not going to be true for you. For whatever reasons and however life works, that's just the reality of it. So face that reality and it will be difficult. And it's not a one day, one week, one month process. It will be kind of a lifetime of adjustments. But face the reality, but also be aware that you are being in invited into a parenting experience that will change you in wonderful ways, that will open doors to wonderful relationships.

Steve Harris [00:18:57]: It is not. Well, I'll quote, I'm sure that others who know about this stuff know this, but Emily Kingsley Pearl, welcome to Holland. Are you aware of welcome to Holland, Chris?

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:08]: I'm not. Tell me more about that.

Steve Harris [00:19:09]: Okay. She was one of the original writers in Of Sesame Street. She wrote an analogy, apologies, probably 30, 40 years ago now, called welcome to Holland. And the idea is that parents who are having a child, it's kind of like they're getting a dream vacation to Italy. And so they get on the plane, they're all excited, you know, prepared to enjoy Italy. The plane lands, the announcement comes over the loudspeaker, and they say, good afternoon, everybody. Welcome to Holland. And the parent sitting there says, well, wait a minute, I didn't expect to be in Holland.

Steve Harris [00:19:39]: I'm going to Italy. And also, you find out you're in Holland, you are in a place that you did not expect. You're not prepared for it. And she said, okay, be disorienting. You can be angry about it, you can be frustrated. But she said, as you are in Holland, all of a sudden, there are challenges to it. It's got new languages and new experiences you didn't expect. But as you are there, you're also finding out that Holland has Rembrandt and Holland has tulips and Holland has all kinds of joys and things that you did not expect and you did not prepare for, even think about.

Steve Harris [00:20:08]: But there you are in this new place and you can enjoy Holland. That analogy has helped many people. It helped me early on to realize that, no, I wasn't in the place expected to be as a dad. I was in a world that presented all kinds of challenges. But over time, given time, and there are good days and bad days, but you realize that the life I'm living as a dad right now with my kids, with my two sons who are disabled, it's an amazing, wonderful, rich, rich life. It takes you to places you didn't want to go, maybe, but you're very grateful that you went there.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:41]: Now, if people want to find out more about the book, where should they go?

Steve Harris [00:20:43]: Well, I have a website, www.steve harris author. They can look me up there. It's also on Amazon and other places. If they want to contact me directly, I'll send them a book. You know my dream about this book. Early on, this is probably naive. This was not about book writing thing. I wanted to just be handing these books out.

Steve Harris [00:21:02]: And my dream still is to have this book in every hospital in America because I think it's a book for dads to read and for moms and family members. But I really hope that doctors and nurses, social workers and teachers and chaplains and counselors will read this book because they're working with these men, they're working with these families and these kids. I would love to see the sensitivity heightened about what these families are going through so that they'll be supported because ultimately it supports the kid. A strong dad is going to be a better dad. And our kids are going to need all kinds of support to reach the potential that they have for their lives. A dad as important as any of them in that group of people who are helping. But I hope that the book gets read by all kinds of people out there, but especially by dads, of course. And I do hope that they'll be passing them out in hospital rooms across America.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:21:53]: Now. We always finish our interviews with what I like to call our dad Connection six, which is an opportunity to get to know you a little bit more as a dad. Are you ready?

Steve Harris [00:22:01]: Sure.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:01]: What's one word that describes your relationship with your sons?

Steve Harris [00:22:05]: Playful.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:06]: What's the best piece of dad advice you ever received?

Steve Harris [00:22:10]: Be there.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:11]: What's one activity that you and your sons love or love doing together?

Steve Harris [00:22:18]: Wrestling on the living room floor.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:19]: If you could give your son one life lesson in a single sentence, what would it be?

Steve Harris [00:22:24]: Be grateful and have faith in better things to come.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:27]: What's one thing you've learned about yourself since becoming a dad?

Steve Harris [00:22:31]: I would say I have learned and am learning that I need not a great dad. I need help. And I guess learning to reach out for that help, that's a longer answer. But learn to reach out for the help that you need for the challenges in front of you.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:44]: What advice would you give to other dads who want to build a lasting and meaningful, meaningful relationship with their kids?

Steve Harris [00:22:51]: Appreciate them for the unique individual that they are, that every day is new. You kind of said that in your opening introduction there. That every day is new. We grow, we change, they grow, they change. And be aware of that and connect with that each day.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:05]: Well, Steve, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for sharing your story, for letting us get to know your sons in a little bit different ways, and also for the book that you've created to help help other fathers that are raising children with disabilities to be able to help them to know that they're not alone, but also to help them to negap to navigate the journey that they're going to be on in a very practical way. We'll make sure to put a link in the notes today to make sure that people know how to get access to that, but I truly want to say thank you and I wish you all the best.

Steve Harris [00:23:41]: Well, thank you very much, Chris. It's a pleasure to meet you today and thank you for letting me share my story.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:45]: That's a wrap for this episode of the Dad and Daughter Connection. Thanks for joining us on this journey to build stronger bonds and raise confident, independent daughters. Remember, being an engaged dad isn't about being perfect. It's about being present. If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe and share it with a fellow dad. And don't forget, you can find all our episodes at dadanddaughterconnection.com until next time, keep showing up, keep connecting, and keep being the dad she needs.

Musical Outro Performer [00:24:16]: We're all in the same boat and it's full of tiny screaming passengers we spend the time we give the lessons, we make the meals we buy them presents and bring your A game Cause those kids are growing fast the time goes by just like a dynamite blast Calling astronauts and firemen Carpenters and muscle men get out and be the world to them Be the best dad you can be Be the best dad you can be.

If you're a dad who wants to create a lasting, meaningful bond with your daughter, you won't want to miss this episode of the Dad and Daughter Connection. Dr. Christopher Lewis sits down with Rob Finlay—bestselling author, accomplished entrepreneur, and dad of four (including three daughters)—for an honest, heartwarming discussion about the joys and challenges of fatherhood.

From the start, Dr. Lewis emphasizes that being a great dad is less about perfection and more about presence and intentional connection. There's no universal playbook for fatherhood, especially when it comes to raising girls who are confident and independent. That's why he brings in guests like Rob, who candidly shares both his successes and the lessons learned through mistakes.

One standout theme is the importance of vulnerability and authenticity. Rob talks about never hiding his emotions from his daughters, showing them by example that strength and sensitivity aren't mutually exclusive. He wanted his girls to see a father who could be both a gentleman and deeply caring—teaching by doing rather than merely telling.

Throughout the conversation, both Dr. Lewis and Rob stress the value of teaching resilience and self-reliance. Rob encouraged his daughters to try new things, pushed them to stick with commitments, and allowed them to experience failure—knowing these moments are key to personal growth. He highlights the importance of letting daughters step into adulthood on their terms, supporting them with guidance rather than control.

Another powerful insight is Rob's approach to life skills. Prompted by a late-night call from his daughter ("Can I put the green gas in my Jeep?"), Rob realized the value of giving kids the foundational tools they need to navigate adulthood—from financial conversations to problem-solving. His new book, Hey Dad, Everything You Should Have Learned About Life But Didn't, is packed with practical, real-world advice and a healthy dose of humor to make learning approachable.

Fatherhood isn't static, and the parent-child relationship evolves—what matters is open, honest communication and the willingness to keep learning together. Whether you're helping your daughter make big life decisions or just sharing a favorite meal, every interaction counts.

Ready to be inspired? Listen to this heartfelt episode and take away actionable tips to deepen your connection with your daughter. Tune in at Dad and Daughter Connection—and start building those strong, confident relationships, one day at a time.

If you enjoyed this episode we ask you to take a moment to take our Dad and Daughter Connection Survey to let us know more about you as a dad. You can also sign up to get our newsletter to stay connected to our community and we will send items of interest to you to help you to be the dad that you want to be. Feel free to follow me on the following social media platforms: Facebook, Facebook Group, Instagram, LinkedIn, X. TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:02]: Welcome to the dad and Daughter Connection, the podcast for dads who want to build stronger bonds and raise confident, independent daughters.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:12]: If you're looking to build a stronger bond with your daughter and help her grow into a confident, independent woman, you're in the right place. I'm Dr. Christopher Lewis and the dad and Daughter Connection is the podcast where we dive into real stories, expert advice, and practical tips to help you navigate the incredible journey of fatherhood. In every episode, we'll bring you conversations that inspire, challenge, and equip you to show up as the dad your daughter needs. So let's get started, because being a great dad isn't just about being there, it's about truly connecting. Welcome back to the dad and Daughter Connection, where every week we have a great opportunity to be able to work together on this journey that we're on. Learning more, doing more, and trying to be the dads that we want to be, to be able to build those connections that we want with our daughters one day at a time. And I first and foremost want to say thank you.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:13]: Thank you for always coming back every week and putting yourself out there to learn more. Because all of us are a work in progress and to be honest, none of us know everything that we need to know to be able to be the dads that we want to be. Becoming a dad does not have a playbook. It does. There's no right way to father. But there's a lot of things that you can learn along the way to help you to be that engaged, more present dad that you want to become. And especially in raising daughters, there are so many things that we can do to be able to build those positive relationships through positive communication. And that's why every week I love being able to bring you different people, different people with different experiences that can help you to be able to add some tools to your own toolbox that you can then take into the day to day experiences that you're having with your daughters.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:06]: Today we got another great guest. Rob Findlay is with us today. And Rob's not only a best selling author and accomplished entrepreneur, but also a dad of four. And as a part of those four, he has three daughters. His personal stories of late night calls for help paired with his professional expertise make him unique, uniquely qualified to speak to parents about raising capable, confident young adults. Plus, his engaging, no nonsense delivery resonates with anyone who ever who has ever googled how to reset a circuit breaker at 2:00am I love that. And we're going to be talking about a brand new book that he has called hey, dad, everything you should have learned about life but didn't. And it is definitely a humorous and practical guide to the real world lessons that every young adult needs to know, but that are not always taught.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:56]: So we're going to be talking about his book as well as, first and foremost, learning more about him as a dad. But, Rob, thank you so much for being here today.

Rob Finlay [00:03:04]: Oh, thank you so much for having me on the show. I'll tell you, I Wish you existed 20 plus years ago when I had daughters, because I'll tell you, I grew up in a family with a brother, dad and mom, but. But maybe a little bit more traditional where it was very much a man's household. And in fact, I go so far as my mom wouldn't even put pantyhose that she would buy from the grocery store in the same bag. My brother and I could see it. So I grew up without any real understanding of what it was like to have a sister or anything until Lord blessed me one day with three beautiful daughters and I had no idea what I was doing. So I wish you were there years ago for me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:45]: Well, you can still learn and you never stop being a father to a daughter. So there's always going to be more things to learn along the way. So that being said, I want to learn a little bit more about you as a dad, seeing that you come from that background. I guess as you think back to your daughters and raising your daughters, what's one of the most meaningful moments that you've shared with your daughters and what made it so special?

Rob Finlay [00:04:07]: I think one of the things is I was never afraid to show emotions in front of my daughters. I think that was a very different departure from maybe where I was, but they would know. And now it's almost the joke of they see a movie with a dog dying or something sad in the movie that dad will cry. And I think it was important for them to see that emotion. At the same point, I also wanted them to see what I wanted to portray as a male to them, which is I'm polite, I'm respectful, I have manners, I have etiquette. Right? These are the things that were important. So I wanted to be a gentleman and maybe a little bit on the macho side, but also showing that I had enough sensitivity and tenderness that I could support them at either direction.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:49]: As you just said that. I mean, you said you weren't afraid to show that vulnerability, but at the same time, you also had that macho side as well. And so there's A balance between both sides of that personality. And as you're raising daughters, you're trying to balance, also guiding them to give them the independence to grow into their own person. And so how did you do that?

Rob Finlay [00:05:15]: I think it was about pushing them. I actually believe that I wanted to see them fail. I wanted to see. And I know that's very hard. I mean, parents can't. And probably back at the time, I probably didn't. But in hindsight, I was much more open to them exploring their own paths and pushing them, but not being overbearing. I wanted them to have interest and do things on their own, keep them focused.

Rob Finlay [00:05:37]: If they made a commitment to do cello, well, you're going to take Chiello. You're not going to try it for two days and then quit. You're going to do it and you're going to try it. But if you don't like it after that, or if you. If you're really horrible at it, doesn't really matter, but at least you've tried it. And so those were some of the things that I did. One of the important things that I feel that for young adults and for young kids is to have a broader experience with other adults and other people outside their friend groups. And this was critical for me, that I wanted to make sure that my girls and my son, too, were comfortable networking, having adult conversations, and being exposed to things other than just mom and dad in their friend group.

Rob Finlay [00:06:19]: And so since they were young, you had them in farming groups. I would have them come to business meals with me just so they could see what it was like to be exposed to something other than just the sort of the family unit.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:33]: As I said at the very beginning, going through this process of raising daughters is a learning process for all of us as fathers. And there are specific things that we all can do to be able to strengthen that bond with our daughters. For you, with three daughters, what are some intentional ways that you have done, have worked in the past or are currently working to strengthen your bonds with your daughters, and especially during challenging times?

Rob Finlay [00:07:00]: I think, first of all, the young women that I see today, the young women that are my. My daughters, those are my daughters, we said, like, when they're in their 20s, are very different than the young women that I knew 25 years ago when I was a young man. And the young ladies today that I've created and I've seen are much more independent. And therefore, the needs that they have tend to be more of financial understanding and business understanding and things like that. And my Daughters typically will come to me with questions that are much more about their financial independence than it is about navigating their own personal life or personal relationships. There I think there was a stage not, you know, all fathers, I think, go through this where your daughter is the apple in your eye and she's there and she's with you all the time and she'll tell you everything. Then she goes to this different stage where maybe she's not as comfortable talking to you about boyfriends and things that they're doing. But then it comes back around where now these boyfriends are becoming, okay, this is not just a boyfriend, this is actually a serious relationship and we want to move in together.

Rob Finlay [00:08:06]: So we start having those dialogues of that where it's a very different situation. It's not dad being emotional saying, okay, I'm bringing a boy to the house for the first time, it's dad, this could be my life partner for life. And what are the things that I have to think about from a practical or even a, I don't want to say business, but a financial standpoint. And that's where these conversations have started. And these are very difficult conversations because at 20 some odd years old, these are adult conversations. When you're talking about, one of my daughters has a very good job, her boyfriend does not, they're sharing expenses, they're living together. So now it becomes a different thing of, okay, well how do you protect these things that are yours and yet still have these relationships? And it's almost equivalent to what a prenup agreement is to an adult. You're now having these conversations with people who are in their early stage of adulting, just launching.

Rob Finlay [00:08:56]: And they have so much to do anyways with just launching. They're on this what I call magic carpet ride of life where from the day they're born, basically until they have this big life moment which is graduation, and get thrown into the real world, everything is coming at them all at once. And now you have to compound it with some pretty difficult grown up conversations.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:16]: So talk to me about that because you are having those conversations. And as I'm listening to that, I know I have a daughter in college right now, she's not at that point yet. How do you approach that without stepping over the line and stepping into a lane that, that they don't want you in? In that regard, I think at this.

Rob Finlay [00:09:36]: Point is this is where you let your child fail to a level where it's acceptable. But there are times where father knows best, even though they don't like it and sometimes. But I've been around the block. I've experienced this myself. And so coming to them with this conversation, I think it's more of the approach where I want them to come to their own conclusions, but the questions that I lead will prompt them. It's not that I'm trying to show influence over my daughter, but rather use my influence to let them come and make the right decisions themselves. And they are hard. The first move in boyfriend is.

Rob Finlay [00:10:12]: Is the big one, and we live together, and it's gonna be wonderful. Oh, okay. But let me ask you, what would happen if, first things first, you get a pet together? Who gets the pet if something happens? Just think about. You make your own decisions. I think I'm very quick to do that with my girls. I want them to make the decisions, but let them know the consequences, the things that they don't think about. Because you're like, you're at a. At an all you can eat buffet.

Rob Finlay [00:10:35]: You want to eat as much as you possib you can without the consequences of, oh, geez, I just ate way too much later that night. And so it is about having the mind. And I think the important part of all of this is the demeanor that I have to provide to my daughters is one of very calm. And my wife is usually very good to maybe give me a little pinch. Right. If we're on the call and I might get a little excited, they can hear it in my voice. I have to detune it a little bit because I think. And at least with my own experience, and it's also a little skewed for me, because my day job is my business, just like yours.

Rob Finlay [00:11:08]: You're at the university. My day job is at a business, and I hire a lot of young analysts right out of college. And predominantly, they are young men. And so my management style with them is different. And just like with my son, my conversation, my tone with my son is very different. With my daughters, including each individual daughter, there's a different approach to talk to each one. And so it just comes back to the demeanor has to be set, and the conversation, the tone has to be set commensurate with the child.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:38]: You know, I know that there have been plenty of times that I've made mistakes, and none of us are infallible. What's a mistake that you've made as a father, and what did you learn about it in regards to fostering a positive connection with your daughters?

Rob Finlay [00:11:50]: Well, I'll tell you, there's a lot of things. I mean, the whole Purpose of the book that I wrote was because of a late night phone call just on a certain instance. And I realized, have I taught my kids everything that they should know to go be an adult? And not that you have to know everything because you learn as an adult, you learn every day. But, but have I given them the foundation? Go out, get out on their own, get a job, get an apartment, make friends, become a good healthy adult. All of these things have I built them the foundation? And then it starts to do the. Where it spirals as a father, like, well, geez, you know what? I spent all my younger years when they were around trying to build a business thinking that it was important for me to provide for them. And maybe the providing that I should have given was maybe more emotional and less financial. So it starts to come around as what did I do wrong as a father? Now, fortunately I have a good relationship with all of my kids and but this book has really sort of opened up my eyes where I look back at all these things that I don't know that I taught them.

Rob Finlay [00:12:49]: Was it because I wasn't there? Was I an absent father? Or was it maybe in many cases I told them and they didn't listen, or was it because I wanted to take care of them? And I'm very guilty of that with my girls. My girls, if they know if there was a light that went on in their car, all they had to do is go up and say, hey dad, Daddy, there's a light on in my car. And I would go run fix it it, I wouldn't make them do it. Now in hindsight would have been better for me to push them back to solve their own problems.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:17]: So let's talk about your book. And as I mentioned, you do have this brand new book called hey dad, everything you should have learned about life but didn't. And one of the things that I noticed when looking at the book, you talk about that green handle moment in your book and it's a powerful moment. So it was that call that you got. And so tell me more about that call. But what did that call from your daughter teach you about the importance of dad and daughter communications in the transition to adulthood?

Rob Finlay [00:13:46]: So the call to put give your listeners sort of the perspective, it's the middle of the night, probably one or two o'clock in the morning, which for me that's, that's bedtime. I'm already asleep for hours here. And every parent fears this call in the middle of the night. And I got it and I look over and it's one of my daughters calling. And I knew she was on a road trip. She was traveling from Wisconsin to go down to Austin, Texas. They were looking for a job. She was a college senior at the time.

Rob Finlay [00:14:12]: And I'm panicked because my kids know that a call this late doesn't. That has to be an emergency. She picked up, and I was like, what's wrong? Because that's my first instinct. What is wrong? Can I put the green gas in my Jeep? Nope. Hey, dad. Sorry to bother you. No, nothing. It's just a very quick.

Rob Finlay [00:14:27]: Can I put the green gas in my Jeep? And my heart rate has to come down, comes down. I'm starting to pain. I'm like, starting to think, okay, I'm woken up. Like, I finally realized, are you talking about diesel? Are you thinking about putting diesel in your Jeep? And she was almost hostile with me. Like, how dare I even. Yes, can I do it? Like, she was frustrated with me asking questions. And at that point I realized, like, you know, obviously, maybe I didn't teach her this. This is shame on me.

Rob Finlay [00:14:52]: But also at the same point, I felt like, was it because it was easier to call me than to go and look at it on her own? Right. Could she have done research? Could she have gone on Google? Right. I mean, we're in the Internet society. There's. There's ways to get answers. And so I think it was more about that she wanted to reach out to me, to look for advice, to maybe in a reassuring moment, because there were some factors there that were going on, such as there was not to spoil this section of the book. It was. We had a fuel crisis on the east coast at that time, and none of the gas stations had gas.

Rob Finlay [00:15:25]: And, you know, even while dad said, it's probably not a great time to do a trip, how can I stop her from going? But it was more of like, is she just trying to get some reassurance? And I think that comes down to one of the things that I feel, and this is that moment, is I think my kids and my girls in particular know what to do. But sometimes it's nice to have a little bit of reassurance. It's reassurance from dad that, yeah, I am doing the right thing. Yes, I'm going to be okay, or maybe I'm not doing the right thing and maybe I should do this or think differently about it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:54]: So that kind of leads into another part in your book where you talk about letting your kids call you or as a father, into the playing field. Only when they're ready. So how has that approach shaped your relationship with your daughters over time?

Rob Finlay [00:16:10]: Look, I'm a businessman. I have no medical credentials, no nothing. It's me as a dad trying to do the best I can. I think I probably pushed my kids out into situations probably faster than I should have. Now, it's also siblings, right? So, I mean, the easiest way to go get a sibling to swim is to watch their other siblings swim. Of course, they want to do that naturally. And so while it's probably more sheltering and sheltered with my son and then my next daughter, and then by the time the fourth one comes around, you're a little bit more like, go ahead, go do these things. Go take responsibilities, having jobs, having chores, the girls grew up on a farm, about opening up and seeing things that are really, you're not going to see on TV and you're not going to see on social media.

Rob Finlay [00:16:54]: And I think that was a big thing. And I think when I was writing this book, one of the things that I really wanted to do was go out and seek experts in the field of everything from finding an apartment to maintaining a car to what to do in emergencies, banking, insurance, taxes, all the things that I think are of core foundational purpose for young adults to become adults. And I think what I really did with this was I tried to mirror it, it to what my girls were learning and what I want them to learn going forward.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:26]: Is there a story that you can share where that strategy for you either built more trust or even backfired?

Rob Finlay [00:17:33]: The first thing I've learned, and I'm sure a lot of fathers know this, especially if their daughters are in. In dating age, if you say you don't like the boy, he's staying. I've learned very quickly that there are things that I do now that have backfired. When I try to say, you know what? A young man who's coming to date, you should have a firm handshake. He should look at me in the eye. He should be polite. He should be polite to you. He should give attention to you, right? He should.

Rob Finlay [00:17:55]: And when I realized that there's a different way, once again, it comes back to the conversation. Letting them know, if I don't like this guy, he doesn't shake my hand, right? All that's going to do is say, oh, that's going to be my new boyfriend. But if I talk about how I've noticed these young men at my office, how great they are by being polite, or how important it is, and even this comes down to how I am as a father in particular. This is just a purely on relationship side, but my wife requires us to do once a week, date night, to spend time together. Not on our phone, not with everything. And I think the kids and, and my girls see that. It's like it's important that somebody give you attention, focus on you and make you feel special, because that is what you are to me. But dad's blue in the face until I tell you how special you are.

Rob Finlay [00:18:41]: I hear you, dad. I hear you. I hear you. But somebody else has to do that. And making them expect that is part of that learning of being an adult is getting the respect of yourself first.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:52]: A lot of times in my experience as a father, I have noticed that a lot of the life lessons that you see out in memes, in writing, a lot of that is focused on sons. Especially when you look at things like self reliance or money management or dealing with failure, There's a lot of that out in the world. How did writing this book change or reinforce the kind of life lessons you think daughters specifically need from their dads today?

Rob Finlay [00:19:22]: Personally, I don't differentiate the two. I think there's a couple things. One is I think the skills that I'm trying to talk about, the foundational skills that I talk about in my book are truly just what every adult. It doesn't matter what you are, every adult needs to know how to do these basic things. This isn't like one plus one. This is actually just more foundational. Right? It's not about. About how to tie a tie, but rather when you should wear a tie or obviously daughter something different.

Rob Finlay [00:19:47]: But to me, when I wrote the book, I wanted everybody to have these foundations because I think no matter what it is, if even it's about life, it's all the same. I can tell you though, what I have learned in all of this is that doing the research and talking to other parents, and talking to other parents in particular, it seems like the young ladies are actually more confident and are doing better and are at a very, very different path than young men. And I know that it's not as popular of a conversation because I personally think everybody should be lifted. You should never have one group of people below the other. Everybody should be lifted. Everybody should. Being successful and having a good life. So after I wrote this book and talked to my girls and my son about it, it really became more of I think I've done okay, but not by me.

Rob Finlay [00:20:31]: It's probably because they're smart, they're independent, and they Take it upon themselves. And yes, they'll ask crazy questions, questions, but it's also a matter of time. Young adults today have not just their parents talking to them or their relationship with their dad, but they also have their relationship with social media. And so the influence that social media has, especially on some of these life lessons, is huge. A lot bigger than when I was growing up. As what mom and dad said, that was pretty much it. And yeah, my buddies, they'd be influences, but I don't have a screen showing me what I should be making for a job. I don't have a screen showing me how, at any moment, being compared to something.

Rob Finlay [00:21:05]: And so I really do believe that it comes down to as parents. And the best thing that we can do with our sons and daughters is to encourage them to have confidence in themselves, give them the tools to be confident adults, because it comes quick and it comes pretty fast. And I know our first instinct is to protect them from it and keep them all. Let them save more money, let them stay at home, let them stay under the nest. I don't know if that's necessarily the best thing for young adults to get out into this world.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:21:31]: Your book has a lot of humor in it. And what role do you think humor plays in building deeper connections between fathers and daughters, especially when navigating those adulting fails?

Rob Finlay [00:21:43]: Look, life is too stressful as it is. We have to, at some point, lighten up and make sure that we focus on what is really important. I look back in the fall we have when. When college acceptance come around, and the stress of these young adults and their parents is criminal. It's absolutely criminal. The pressure that we put on for something. And this goes back to when I noticed the same thing. My first chapter on the book is probably one of the most profound and probably one of the hardest ones for me to.

Rob Finlay [00:22:10]: To write because it was about emotion. It was like all of a sudden you're on this, what I call that magic carpet ride, and it stops. And you as a young adult, are now faced with where to live, what to do for a job, all these other factors, and it might be too much for you, and it becomes overwhelming. And one of my daughters just recently went through this where she didn't know where she was going to live. She didn't know what she was going to do for a job. Her career path through college had changed because the market had changed. And this poor thing, the stress consumed her. And at some point I just had to laugh and just say, listen, this just life, it's Important, but relax.

Rob Finlay [00:22:44]: And so one of the first things I do when I talk to young adults, just take a deep breath. The decision you make today on your first job or where you're going to live is not going to be your last decision. You are going to make these decisions. So having humor and putting that in sort of lightens the load a little bit. It's also sort of my style, too. I don't want to stress them out even more. Oh, my gosh, yes, you need to have the right job. Because if you don't have the right job first, well, you'll never get your second job.

Rob Finlay [00:23:08]: The second job won't be great. I don't think that is beneficial. Letting him relax, going into a situation. It was actually probably the Navy SEAL who I interviewed in the book was probably on emergencies, probably tied it all back to me, which was he's like, look, when people get anxious, they make mistakes. And so relax. Understand the situation. If you can relax, then you can find your way out of it. So in that same tune.

Rob Finlay [00:23:31]: So it's sort of fitting that that last part of the book is what to do in Emergencies, written by a Navy SEAL and an emergency parameter medic. What ties back into the first part, which is my people that I interviewed were clinical psychologists and psychiatrists and how to tie it back, which is just relax. You can make good decisions if you relax and think clearly.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:50]: Now, your book also emphasizes getting a plan and visualizing a life. How can dads help daughters develop a life direction without overwhelming them with their own expectations?

Rob Finlay [00:24:02]: For me, one of the stories I put in there is actually one of my daughters loves hiking. Hiking loves being in the outdoors. And we sort of talk about that hiking path, right? And so I asked her, I'm like, well, what do you like in hiking? Like, how do you pick what you want to go? And she would say, well, if I want to hike on the beach, I go pick a hike towards the beach. If I want to hike in the mountains, I want to go pick a hike in the mountains. And we use that as an analogy to sort of talk about life. Well, where do you want to go? Do you want to be in science or what? So trying to take their interests and tie it back into a story, more of a narrative, into helping them. Them pick what they want. And if you can equate it back to things that are simple like a hike, she's like, oh, wait, hike.

Rob Finlay [00:24:43]: Yeah, I really like science. And you know what the best part about a hike is? If you don't like it, you can turn left, right, or go back. You can do different things. And so using those kind of stories and those kind of tools will help them write the narrative of their own. I also believe in a lot in visualization. Describe to me. I love movies, I love television shows. And so I'm always like, let's create a scene for me.

Rob Finlay [00:25:06]: Where do you work? Give me a picture of that. Talk to me. Are you driving into the office or are you walking knowing would you live in a city or would you be in the suburbs? And letting them build their own story in their brain. And that helps them get the sort of the, the, the destination and the direction started. It's not going to be everything, but it's going to give them the start.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:25:26]: Now, if people want to find out more about the book, about you, where should they go?

Rob Finlay [00:25:30]: So they can go to heydadbook.com which is all about the book. If they want to learn more about me and the, the other stuff I've done, they can go to rob finlay.com that's f I n l a y.com also on all the social media stuff. So I try to show things from work, things from the book, things from the farm, try to make it as interesting as I can.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:25:53]: Now I always finish our interviews with what I call our dad Connection 6, which asks you six more questions to delve a little bit more into you and your relationship with your daughters. Are you ready?

Rob Finlay [00:26:04]: Sure.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:05]: What's one word that describes your relationships with your daughters?

Rob Finlay [00:26:08]: Strong.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:09]: What's the best piece of dad advice you've ever received?

Rob Finlay [00:26:13]: Don't give up.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:14]: What's one activity that you and your daughters love doing together?

Rob Finlay [00:26:18]: Eating. They're going to hate me, by the way, when they get this. They're going to, they're going to like, follow me. I'm going to hear all about this.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:23]: If you could give your daughters one life lesson in a single sentence, what would it be?

Rob Finlay [00:26:28]: Be happy.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:29]: What's one thing that you've learned about yourself since becoming a dad?

Rob Finlay [00:26:34]: That I actually have it in.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:36]: And finally, what advice would you give to other dads who want to build a lasting and meaningful relationship with their daughters?

Rob Finlay [00:26:43]: Be open and honest and communicate well.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:46]: Rob, I just want to say thank you. Thank you so much for your willingness to share your own journey with your daughters. Thank you for putting this book out into the world. I'll definitely put links in the notes today for everyone to be able to find you and find the book. But I truly appreciate all that you're doing to be able to help fathers to connect with their kids in different ways, help young adults to make that transition into adulthood and more. And I wish you all the best.

Rob Finlay [00:27:15]: Thank you so much for having me. This was a lot of fun. Thank you.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:17]: That's a wrap for this episode of the dad and Daughter Connection. Thanks for joining us on this journey to build stronger bonds and raise confident, independent daughters. Remember, being an engaged dad isn't about being perfect. It's about being present. If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe and share it with a fellow dad. And don't forget, you can find all our [email protected] until next time, keep showing up, keep connecting, and keep being the dad she needs.

Speaker D [00:27:48]: We're all in the same boat and it's full of tiny screaming passengers we spend the time, we give the lessons we make the meals we buy them presents and bring your A game Cause those kids are growing fast the time goes by just like a dynamite blast Calling astronauts and firemen Carpenters and muscle men get out and be the world to them Be the best dad you can be Be the best dad you can be.

If you're a dad looking to strengthen the bond with your daughter, the latest episode of the "Dad and Daughter Connection" podcast is a must-listen. Hosted by Dr. Christopher Lewis and featuring special guest Shon Hart, executive director of Involved Dad, this episode is a heartfelt exploration of the joys, challenges, and transformative power of intentional fatherhood.

Real Talk About Fatherhood

The conversation starts with honesty and vulnerability—Shon Hart recalls a moment where his well-intentioned advice to his daughter didn't land as he hoped. Owning his mistake, he shares the deep lesson he learned about parenting from a place of self-awareness, not old wounds. It's a reminder that as fathers, our pasts influence our advice, but our daughters need us to step up as our healthiest, most present selves.

Building Open Communication

Throughout the episode, Shon emphasizes the value of open, empathetic communication. He advocates for creating a home environment where daughters feel safe talking about anything—even the hard stuff. Shon's approach is simple but powerful: listen more, ask thoughtful questions, and let your daughters know you trust their judgment. By sharing his own stories—including mistakes—he models courage and honesty, encouraging other dads to meet their children with humility and understanding.

Supporting Dreams and Independence

One uplifting segment tackles the importance of letting your child pursue their own dreams, not yours. Shon, a former athlete, shares how he encourages his daughter in her passions—even if they don't mirror his own. His support, whether it's for her love of soccer or her entrepreneurial ambitions, demonstrates that empowering our children means respecting their individuality and aspirations.

The Power of Being Present

Perhaps the most resounding message is that fatherhood isn't about perfection—it's about presence. Whether it's through shared traditions, like greeting rituals when traveling, or making space for honest conversations, Shon and Dr. Lewis highlight the everyday moments that deepen connection. When dads show up authentically and consistently, they help their daughters grow into confident, independent women.

This episode is packed with practical tips, real stories, and genuine wisdom for any father—or parent—seeking to build healthier, more meaningful relationships with their children.

If you're ready to take another step on your fatherhood journey, tune in to this episode of the Dad and Daughter Connection. You'll be inspired, challenged, and better equipped to be the dad your daughter needs. Listen now and join a community that's all about connection, growth, and love.

If you enjoyed this episode we ask you to take a moment to take our Dad and Daughter Connection Survey to let us know more about you as a dad. You can also sign up to get our newsletter to stay connected to our community and we will send items of interest to you to help you to be the dad that you want to be. Feel free to follow me on the following social media platforms: Facebook, Facebook Group, Instagram, LinkedIn, X.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:02]: Welcome to the dad and Daughter Connection, the podcast for dads who want to build stronger bonds and raise confident, independent daughters. If you're looking to build a stronger bond with your daughter and help her grow into a confident, independent woman, you're in the right place. I'm Dr. Christopher Lewis, and the dad and Daughter Connection is the podcast where we dive into real stories, expert advice, and practical tips to help you navigate the incredible journey of fatherhood. In every episode, we'll bring you conversations that inspire, challenge, and equip you to show up as the dad your daughter needs. So let's get started, because being a great dad isn't just about being there. It's about truly connecting. Welcome back to the dad and Daughter Connection, where every week we have a great opportunity to be able to come together, to learn together, and to be able to work on these relationships, these connections that we want to build with our daughters.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:07]: That's why every week, I love being able to be here, to be able to talk with you, to walk with you, because you and I are on a similar journey. I've got two daughters, you've got daughters. You're here because you want to build a better connection, and all of us want to do that. And I commend you for taking that step, taking that step to listen today, because that's the first step. And showing up here shows that you have an interest in learning to be able to take that next step, to build and make that relationship even stronger. Every week, I bring you different guests, different people with different experiences that can share their own journey, their own journey as a father, as a person that can provide other resources to you to help you in your journey in some way. And today we got another great guest. Shawn Hart is with us, and Shawn is the executive director of Involved dad, and we're going to talk more about Involved dad and what he is creating in the Flint, Michigan area and beyond.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:12]: But Sean has had over a decade of experience in managing and spearheading fatherhood initiatives, and he has been working with dads, and not only in his own community, but beyond, to help them to be able to build those stronger relationships. And I had the opportunity to first get to meet Sean through the Dads with Daughters podcast that I used to do. And I love what he's doing in the community where I work in Flint, Michigan, but also in just being an advocate for fathers in general. And I think you're going to hear it in the conversation today and through the work that he does. And I'm really excited to have him here. Sean, thanks so much for being here today. Thank you.

Shon Hart [00:02:53]: Thank you so much, Chris, for having me. I'm really excited to be back in your presence, my brother. So thanks for having me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:59]: Well, I am really excited to have you back as well, because as I said, you know, we. We had an opportunity to meet, I'm gonna say, about a year and a half ago or so. And I love what you're doing, but first and foremost, before we get into involved dad, I want everyone to get to know you a little bit better. So I. And being that this is the dad and daughter connection, we've gotta talk about that relationship with. With your daughter. So what is one of the most meaningful moments that you've had the opportunity to share with your daughter and what made it so special?

Shon Hart [00:03:31]: Well, I have several. Right. But I have two daughters. But I will speak to one moment where. Where I fumbled. Where I fumbled the bag. And this was probably about two years ago, Chris. I gave my daughter so not so best advice, and it wind up doing.

Shon Hart [00:03:50]: Was causing her to become susp from school. So in a nutshell, she was being bullied by some young ladies and me being a protective dad, you know, I told her to go to school the next day and to confront the young lady. Not to fight, but to confront. And so what wind up happening? The school contacted us, told us about it. And if you know my daughter, she's very introverted, Chris. And I just really felt bad with her coming home, just feeling sad and me not being able to be a voice because she didn't want me to go to school. She didn't want me to go talk to the principal or the teachers. You know, she just said she'd handle it.

Shon Hart [00:04:32]: Well, once she got suspended, I felt really bad, brought it up to the school. But this was the moment that night when we were leaving her soccer practice, and I brought it up and I asked her how she was feeling, and I knew she didn't feel well. Right. Being suspended because she's a daughter that really doesn't get in a whole lot of trouble. And she looked at me and she began to cry. And so my thing was like, man, these jokers have my daughter feeling bad. She's crying, she's sad. And so my response to her was, you know what? I'm going to request a meeting with the teacher, the principal, all of the people that should have kept her safe.

Shon Hart [00:05:11]: And her response to me, she looked at me and her response was, is like, dad, I'm not crying because of the suspension. I'm Crying because of what you told me to do. She said, I did not want to go to school and confront, I didn't want to do all of these things. And that's why she was crying. And so immediately, man, I felt guilty, I felt so bad because she's very introverted, doesn't like conflict. And I believe there's a way that you can help teach your children to advocate for themselves using their voice. But when she did that, I felt bad. And so I realized that, Chris, that the advice that I gave her was not advice from a 45 year old adult.

Shon Hart [00:05:55]: The advice was from that 13 year old boy, that 13 year old boy that still was living on the inside of me, who when he was 13 did not fight this young man named Titi because he was afraid. And all of the kids in the school knew that I was afraid and laughed. And so here it was at 45, I realized that I wanted my then daughter, who was 15, to avenge the 13 year old Sean. And so I put my trauma on hers. And so in that encounter that we had, it gave me the opportunity to confront the 13 year old boy and me and give him some grace and ask him to forgive me and go through the whole process. But I was able to tell my daughter that very story once I made the connection of what really took place and my daughter in my arms cried and said that she forgave me. And it was a powerful exchange, man. So it was two people that were healed in that moment.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:57]: So thinking about that example that you just gave, what did you learn from it that will help you in the future in fostering a positive communication with your daughters?

Shon Hart [00:07:07]: The biggest thing is about me being healthy, right? Parenting from a healthy place. Because my daughters and I, my children, we have a very, very strong relationship as far as communicating. My children talk to me about the most difficult things to me and my wife. But what was most important, what I've learned is, is that it gave me the opportunity to, to become a healthier parent. That when I make decisions or when conflict or adversity arise, that I would be a lot healthier. Being able to look through the lens of being more clear, not looking at, through the lens of some of my childhood trauma and parenting. So that was the biggest thing that I gave. I forgot all about that moment.

Shon Hart [00:07:52]: I totally forgot. And it wasn't until that exchange where I remember like, oh my God, I remember when I was at this age, I did this and I'm like, man, maybe that's why I respond certain ways when my children Come home and say people are picking with them or whatever the case, I'm constantly reverting back to that little boy and me and how I responded in saying, I'm going to make sure that my children don't do what I do or did.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:19]: How do you balance guiding your daughters while also giving them the independence to grow into their own person?

Shon Hart [00:08:25]: I'm very open. I ask a lot of questions. I will give advice, but I ask a lot of questions trying to help them to come to the right conclusion and have a lot of empathy when I'm talking them through it. So I want them to understand that I understand where they're coming from. Like, there's nothing new under the sun. So I never allowed them to think. Think that their dad was always perfect. So where there's opportunity for me to give my example of my life or other people, examples that I've known that have made or that was confronted with similar situations.

Shon Hart [00:09:06]: Mine is from boy and theirs from the girl perspective, right? So even like my oldest daughter, when early, when she was young, man, we talked about. I'm a firm believer is that when your children get exposed, then you need to have that conversation, regardless of whatever it is. Because if I try to ignore what they just witnessed or was exposed to at school, it is my job, my responsibility to have that conversation, to make sure that they're getting the right information. And so even when my daughter, my oldest, said that she's 21, about to be 22, when she was exposed to sex or whatever the case, kids are talking about it. So we had the conversation and she had a little boyfriend. And so my thing was, at the end of the day, when we got to the place of talking about sex, my thing was like, listen, before you do any of that, just give me a word that we can talk first. Just talk to me. And so my thing about it, and we had talked about a whole bunch of stuff, but my thing was, what she knew at the end of the day was is that my dad was there before.

Shon Hart [00:10:06]: He understands. My thing was like, listen, let's process it. Let's make sure you're making the right decision for your. It's your decision. It's not somebody else manipulating you. Is not your classmates you. This is not that. And so, Chris, man, my daughter made it out of high school without doing some things or whatever the case, man.

Shon Hart [00:10:24]: And when she got older and she was like, I'm looking to do this, she didn't come to me first. She went to my wife, right? But she did bring it to me, so. Which was cool. And so that's the type of environment that I tried to create, Chris. Far from perfect, though, but that's what I try to create.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:40]: Well, talk to me about that, because I think hearing what you just said, a lot of dads want to create that, but don't always know the steps. Don't always know how best to step on that path and move down that path to be able to build that positive relationship and build that open communication that you're talking about. What would you recommend to dads in starting on that path?

Shon Hart [00:11:04]: The first part, man, is to deal with self before I can even create a safe space for my daughters to feel safe enough to talk to me about some of their most intimate. Chris, man, I tell you, yeah, I'm keep it pg, But I just want to be very transparent, man. My daughter came home one day, and she was like, this boy was trying to get her or try to convince her that was okay for him to put his hand down her pants. And, you know, all of this stuff, like, she coming to me telling me this information. And so, brother, I'm cringing. I want to go to school. And like, yo, let me Adam, you know? But it was important on what my response was, right? Because I wanted her to understand that it's not about the boy, that it's about her, and that I trust her, that I trust her. I believe in her, that she will make these decisions.

Shon Hart [00:11:53]: Because if my thing, if I would have jumped to, I'm going to school, I'm doing this, it would be telling her that I did not believe that she had the ability, the tools, and I didn't trust her enough to make a right decision. And so I had to model what I promised her, that when you bring me the most intimate, the most difficult, like, we will process this, and we will come to a conclusion. And so that was a moment. She brought it to me, and I'm like, all right, let's process this. And we gonna process this until, you know, my head, we going to process this to. You are on my side, and you understand. But, yeah, so that's the first thing, is that you have to start working on you. And where you see that there are blind spots, like, really confront them, like, having that conversation of, like, man, why do I believe this? Why do I believe this? What can I do? And this is my last thing that I say as it relates to this, Chris, is that I am a firm believer with my daughters, because they're two different girls.

Shon Hart [00:12:53]: What I would say is what does she need at this moment? I'm big on that. Like, what does this individual child need in this moment? One may need something totally different where the versus the other may need something else. And so when I have come to that conclusion, it gives me the ability to make a better decision in this moment, not based off of something else. They may need to be disciplined. But guess what? In this moment, discipline is not what she needs. What she need is this. And so that's why I try to parent from that place.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:26]: Now, I know we talked about a week or so ago and your youngest daughter was out on a college visit and this next question really gets into that. So as I think about that, because I'm going through that myself with my own youngest daughter. How do you support your daughters in pursuing their passion and dreams?

Shon Hart [00:13:46]: Man, that's really good because this one, hers is in action, right? So me being a former football player, played at Michigan State University, you know, just high level, like all things sports, right? Like sports, sports, sports. And so I realized that, man, my life is mine and theirs is theirs. And so my thing is like, because I know what it feels like to wake up every day and, and live your dream and live your passion and do what burns you like that, keep the fire going. That's my desire for my children, right? So I get to wake up every day and help people. The opportunity of helping heal families. And so that's one of the most rewarding things, right? And then just recently, you know, I'm able to. I was unable to make it to the NFL, but now, Chris, I'm working with NFL players, been coaching NFL players. So I'm living my dream as it relates to a career.

Shon Hart [00:14:41]: And so when you talk about your children, my daughter, who is extremely athletic, and I want to say this because this is important, extremely athletic, has the ability to do some amazing things. Well, I realized that she liked soccer, she doesn't love soccer. And she's been gifted with ability that can take her for, you know, places. And early on I'm like, man, if you would only do this and do that like you. But her thing is like, that is not her dream. Soccer for her is a ends to. Is. Is a, is a means to end.

Shon Hart [00:15:14]: So she love it enough to where she enjoys playing it. She's gonna give her all because she's been gifted, she's really been gifted to play this sport. And she's gonna give you what you need. But her biggest desire is that she want to become a business owner. She wants to own her own Own hair salon, she want to do nails and things of that nature. Like that's what really drives her. So my thing is like, yo, whatever you desire, how can I support you, you know, from that standpoint. So she understands that soccer is a means to an end.

Shon Hart [00:15:48]: Will allow her put her in a position to get a high education, to continue to play the sport that she enjoys. But it will put her in a better position to understand business if she go get a higher education and to get the finances for the university to pay for it. So. So that's where I'm at. Is that because I am living my dream, I want my children to live theirs, despite what I want for them.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:14]: Now, what's a tradition or routine that you've been able to create that strengthens your bonds with your daughters?

Shon Hart [00:16:21]: Man, I don't know if we have any straight up routines, but there's a lot of moments that they do. Like every time I go out of town, I come back, my 21 year old is our thing. I guess it is a tradition. She created it, not me. I can't say that I came up with it, but. And I don't know how much longer we can do that this job. But whenever I leave and come back out of town, she would like a little girl. You ready, Daddy? You ready? Yeah.

Shon Hart [00:16:50]: And my wife look at us like we crazy, but she was sprint from across the room and jump into my arms where I gotta catch her now, man. She's again, she's 21, about to be 22, so she's not a very little girl anymore. So now I gotta brace myself, I gotta catch this big grown woman. So. So that's something that myself and my oldest daughter do all the time. And then my youngest daughter, she does this. I don't know what you call it, rabbit ears or whatever. Like almost like a fish pump.

Shon Hart [00:17:20]: And when we come in for the pump, I gotta guess if she's going to put her peace sign up under my hand or is she gonna give me a fist bump so she always keep me on my toes. Okay. Is this gonna be a connection or are you gonna trick me? So that's something. I guess I didn't know that we had something, but I guess we do now. You made me think about it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:38]: Sometimes those moments can be small. They can be large, but they're meaningful all the same.

Shon Hart [00:17:44]: Yeah.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:44]: Now, I mentioned that you're the executive director of Involved dad and you work with lots of different dads, not only in your own community, but beyond. And I guess let's Go back to the beginning. What personal experiences led you to establish involved dad and how have they shaped your vision for the organization?

Shon Hart [00:18:05]: Unfortunately or fortunately. Right. Depends on what you believe. But my dad just passed away in 24, right before Christmas. By the time he passed away, we had a great relationship Prior to that, years ago, not prior to, but years ago, we didn't have the best relationship relationship in his eyes. Quite sure he thought everything was fine. But as a little boy, I definitely was not cool with our relationship. Definitely didn't know if he loved me or not.

Shon Hart [00:18:32]: Definitely didn't know if. Forget love. Didn't know if he liked me. He was a man of very few words. Definitely old school, discipline style, and so very rigid. And so I just had some issues with all of that. And so when I've gotten older, when I started working in a prison, because I worked in a prison for 10 years. But when I got to the prison, an inmate, David Kaiser, looked at me and he's like, chat.

Shon Hart [00:18:58]: And they used to call me Chat. He was like, appreciate. We really appreciate the work that you do with us. And we are growing. But he asked me, he's like, man, who's working with you, who's healing you? Because I guess he can really see some of my trauma that was still dealing with, you know, that I didn't deal with. And so at that time, I still was dealing with unforgiveness of my brother being murdered. Gentlemen killed my brother. So I had an issue with inmates and then, you know, didn't have the best relationship with my father.

Shon Hart [00:19:28]: So. But my experience with my dad of him not being involved, that's why we call it involved dad. So he was in the home, but he wasn't involved. It allowed me to see work through my own while I was working with the men in the prison because I just saw a pattern of these men being incarcerated. They were leaving children at home. And when you begin to talk to the men that were incarcerated, they. Many of them didn't know their real fathers or didn't have relationships. And so that is what really, really sparked the.

Shon Hart [00:20:00]: That sparked everything within me, like put me on that journey and path to healing families. And so it was working in the prison that awakened that for me, Chris, that I said, I want to be a solution to the children out there that felt like me that did not have access to a father so we could break those generational curses. So that's where it started. So really wasn't about the fathers, about the children, But I just decided that it was best for me to help children, to help the fathers who many people didn't want to work with.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:30]: So you just talked about the fact that some of these dads were in the home but were not engaged, they were not involved. How do you define involved?

Shon Hart [00:20:38]: Yeah, involved to me is being emotionally present, physically present. And if you believe in a higher being, helping your children to believe in something bigger than themselves. And for me, my faith is really important. And so I want my children to, from a faith standpoint, to know, not only know the God that I serve, I want them to have their own personal experience, to have their own personal relationship. And so. So that's what I define it as, right? Just being available and being very, very transparent. From the aspect of. Is that I know that me being an entrepreneur, that I travel quite a bit, other people pull as well.

Shon Hart [00:21:22]: As I continue to grow and my name has gotten larger and larger, that more and more people are requesting my time. And so it's that balance. And so being honest with my children about what I can and cannot do and, you know, and making them part of it, just taking them with me where I can, you know, just keeping them present, like, okay, dad is going to be gone this time and that time. But when I'm present, I'm present. So I'm not distracted by doing these other things. But when I'm present, I'm here in their presence. So that way they can feel that I do care and that I do value them. So that's how I define being involved in a short way.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:01]: Now I know that Involved dad offers a number of different programs like man to Man University and the Impact program. Can you talk a little bit more about how these programs were developed and their intended impact on fathers and families?

Shon Hart [00:22:14]: Yeah. So when we started out with man to man, which was in a prison, move that to the community. And so we just started. I just created a peer. I wanted a peer to peer support group, place where men can come and just support one another in the community. And so in doing so, we began to hear the various challenges because I wasn't, you know, I didn't have a baby mama, quote unquote, you know, so I didn't know what that looked like. I was co parenting, but we were married, so I didn't understand the nuances of having to co parent with another parent not in the home. And so listening to the gentleman that was coming, we began to hear the various challenges.

Shon Hart [00:22:56]: And so with that being said, once we begin to hear those challenges, we wanted to help solve the problem. And that's where impact was created, where we partnered with the local friend of the court, because the friend of the court had access to mostly all of the men that we were working with when they started talking about child support issues or access to their children. The friend of the court or the Office of Child Support was the pathway that all those families was connected to them. So, anyway, I partnered with local attorneys, Legal Services of Eastern Michigan Mediation. So I connected with many partners that had some level of connection that can help us help these fathers get connection. What we've done that started to grow, get people connected. But what we realized, Chris, is that we were getting guys access without considering if there was any form of domestic violence or harm being taken place. All we cared about was access.

Shon Hart [00:23:56]: And so once we became aware that, like, hey, in some of these cases, there may have been some harm taking place. And so with us providing attorney, what we were doing was almost equipping the father to further cause harm if mom didn't have access to an attorney. Here we have this attorney that is taking them to court, and now the judges are ordering these guys to reconnect. And so as a fatherhood agency, we wanted to be very responsible. And so then that's when we started doing work in domestic violence, ensuring, making sure that if we are made aware of a father, if he had history of domestic violence, that we would no longer provide legal assistance. We would still support him and assist him. Right, because we want him to heal and grow, because eventually he will get access to his child. But we wanted to make sure that he was required to go through domestic violence classes because we wanted individuals to be safe.

Shon Hart [00:24:52]: And then we added supervised visitation, our family matters, where families that they are not ready to be alone or they do not need to have be in a presence of their previous partner, that we will use our agency to do supervised visits or exchanges. So we were very intentional about adding programs and services with a holistic approach. So not just through the lens of the father. We wanted to look at it a lens through the mother, father, and child. Right? So how does this child. What does this child need when there's reconnection? What does that mother need when that father is now coming back into the picture? And so that's our approach. And so those are still our three main programs, but we have dialogue, which work with young people and the parent, so helping them better communicate. We have our PROTECT program, where we have two fatherhood coordinators that go out and train men on how to be allies against abuse and neglect for children.

Shon Hart [00:25:55]: And how to be an ally for moms. So that's their sole purpose about bringing allies almost with the CPR model. And then lastly, we have our Family Forward program where we help families navigate the child support system. Both mom or dad, you have a child support case, and a lot of times they don't know how to navigate it because it's so difficult or intimidating. But they can contact us where we will help them navigate and better understand what's going on in the courts.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:27]: Now, as I mentioned at the beginning, I know that this program started and grew from working with dads in the Flint. What are some of the most significant challenges that fathers in the Flint areas face, and how does involved dad address those issues?

Shon Hart [00:26:43]: The biggest challenge, honestly, is the fairness as it relates to having access. Because what happens is sometime, Chris, is that they go to court and a judge will order the parent to see the child every other week for an hour, every other week for two hours. That's a very big challenge where you're talking about having influence on your child. And you mean to tell me that you. It's minimized to. Or just placed at an hour, two hours, put it this way, like four hours a whole month. That's very difficult to have some type of bond and influence on your child when you don't have enough access to cause some form of impression or to help guide. So that's a very difficult thing of helping the families to navigate.

Shon Hart [00:27:38]: You know, that's very difficult. Unfortunately, I had a dad who was using our supervised visitation. He wasn't in our program, but he was ordered to use our supervised visitation, Chris. And while he was at our agency, I could only speak at our agency. Can't speak about what he was doing in the public or whatever. But it appears that he was making some progress at the agency. We still think that he has some ways to grow. But anyway, the judge initially said that, hey, you can have unsupervised visits for so many hours in a week.

Shon Hart [00:28:11]: The other partner did not like it or whatever the case, so they took him back to court. It was really ugly. And we have to always stay neutral. Again, we only have a snap shot of this family. The families know exactly what happens outside of it. But. But anyway, he did not want to come back. He didn't contact us, didn't know all of the stuff that he was going through.

Shon Hart [00:28:35]: But he wind up harming himself to a place to where he's no longer with us. Just finding out that it was so difficult to deal with the case, him dealing with it that he thought it was better to harm himself. So again, I don't know the extent of it, but my point of when I'm driving home is that we just never know where families are dealing with. Especially men sometimes do not know how to express themselves and they will stay in the cave and just was become isolated rather than seeking help. And, you know, and I just want to normalize seeking help. When you are dealing with difficult situations, especially when it comes to. To your children, we have to normalize seeking therapy, normalize asking for help, attending groups, the whole nine. So I bring that story up to normalize seeking help now from one end to the other.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:29:28]: Can you share a success story that's exemplified the transformative effect of involved dad?

Shon Hart [00:29:34]: Absolutely, man. The best success stories for me is when we've been able to have this gentleman who the dad was black, mom was white. The parents did not like that. They were interracial couple. Her parents wind up moving her out of the state. I don't want to say the state or the city, but mom lost contact with dad. He enrolled in our program. We were able to get him to reconnect with mom.

Shon Hart [00:30:04]: Years went by. Mom was extremely excited to work with us to help father reconnect with his child. And wound up happening is that we paid for this gentleman to drive to said city and meet his daughter for the very first time. And so that's been two years ago. And now they have a very beautiful relationship because of the reconciliation. We gave him the tools on how to to be this new father, helped him to navigate on how to reintroduce himself to his child. So now that he has access and they build in this relationship. Just last year, in this previous cohort, we had a father who was able to reconnect with his son who was living with the aunt of his child's mother.

Shon Hart [00:30:56]: And he was able to get custody of the child because he had a safer environment for the child. Where the judge did agree is like, okay, you know what? In this case, it is definitely better for the dad to have custody of the child. And so when we have stories like this where guys who didn't have access and some of the cases where the mothers are excited to say, you know what? We do want him to have access, but we just want him to be better. And looking at that better is him going through the program, receiving all of the education, the information that he need to show up in a way that his child need him to be. So we have many stories each cohort where guys who didn't have access. Have access to their child. But we do it again in the most safe way because we don't want to bring more trauma or chaos to those families.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:31:54]: I can only imagine that leading an organization like Involved dad is demanding. How has this journey influenced your personal growth and perspective on fatherhood?

Shon Hart [00:32:04]: First of all, I'm grateful. I'm grateful to, number one, my wife, my partner, my best friend. It has really made me appreciate her more, made me have the difficult conversations that were very, very difficult for me early on. Working with these men has helped me to become a better communicator. And so with that, my children get to see what a healthy marriage, what a healthy partnership look like. My children get to see the best version of me. Because if I'm seeing something taking place, I'm always reflecting. So what it does is make me come home and apologize, like, oh, my God, I missed it, right? So I'm learning vicariously through other people as well.

Shon Hart [00:32:49]: My thing is, as I'm helping other people heal, when I'm hearing these stories like, ooh, Sean, that wasn't the best. Yeah, Sean, you could have did that better. So I'm using those things. So this has definitely given me the opportunity to do the internal work. And I'm a firm believer of this, and I say it all the time with those that I serve, is that I never want to be a public success in a private failure. And so I let that be a driving factor for me, is that I never want to be someone on the outside that my children cannot be proud of on the inside.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:33:22]: Now, looking ahead, what are your goals for the growth and development of Involved Ed in the next five years?

Shon Hart [00:33:27]: We are looking to expand to other cities. So right now, we have submitted some grants, some opportunities that has come up. So we are looking to expand, expand to Lansing, into the Detroit area. That's where we want to expand and bring our model. We believe we have a very, very unique model. The way that we do the work, again, taking that holistic approach, looking at it from all of the angles and not just creating the space for men just to communicate, but we are actually solving problems. So the things that men are facing, the things that families are facing, we are actually solving problem, getting them connected to the right resources. We are educating them under our roof with our method and models, partnering with the right people, that can close the gap.

Shon Hart [00:34:15]: Because we really believe that if we can heal men internally and have them to show up as the best version of themselves for their children being more involved, reducing what it looked like for children to not have access to their fathers. We believe that we will change the trajectory of our communities as it relates to crime or children being harmed physically from people, from unsafe people. When a father is more involved, we look at it from academically, they perform better. So those things like we believe our model is one of the best models to follow and we are looking to bring it to other cities to make an impact and partner with the right people to make this, this become a reality.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:35:00]: Now, if people want to find out more about involved dad, where should they go?

Shon Hart [00:35:03]: Our website. And we are on social media, so involvedad.org I n v o l V-E-D d a d.org and then they can also find a lot about myself because I post or share. There may have been articles and things of that nature following me. And that's Sean Hart S H O n Hart H A R T so. So between those two places, you can definitely find on social media online different places of that nature.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:35:31]: And we'll definitely put the links in our notes today. Now, Sean, we always finish our interviews with what I like to call our dad connection. 6. It's six more questions to delve a little bit deeper into you as a dad. Are you ready?

Shon Hart [00:35:41]: I'm ready.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:35:41]: What's one word that describes your relationship with your daughters?

Shon Hart [00:35:46]: Ooh, adventurous.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:35:48]: What's the best piece of dad advice you've ever received?

Shon Hart [00:35:53]: Don't spank my daughters.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:35:54]: What's one activity you and your daughter love doing together?

Shon Hart [00:35:58]: Well, I would say travel. Those girls love to travel.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:36:01]: If you could give your daughters one life lesson in a single sentence, what would it be?

Shon Hart [00:36:06]: Know who you are and whose you are.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:36:08]: What's one thing you've learned about yourself since becoming a dad?

Shon Hart [00:36:12]: That I needed healing.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:36:14]: And finally, what advice would you give to other dads who want to build a lasting and meaningful relationship with their.

Shon Hart [00:36:22]: Daughters to realize that it's not about you, it's about the whole. It's not about them, it's about the whole.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:36:30]: Well, Sean, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for being here, for sharing your own journey, for the work that you're doing in involve dad, and I wish you all the best.

Shon Hart [00:36:38]: Thank you so much, Chris. I appreciate it, man. You keep doing what you do, brother.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:36:42]: That's a wrap for this episode of the dad and daughter connection. Thanks for joining us on this journey to build stronger bonds and raise confident, independent daughters. Remember, being an engaged dad isn't about being perfect. It's about being present. If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe and share it with a fellow dad. And don't forget, you can find all our [email protected] until next time, keep showing up, keep connecting, and keep being the dad she needs.

Shon Hart [00:37:13]: We're all in the same boat and it's full full of tiny screaming passengers? We spend the time, we give the lessons, we make the meals, we buy them presents and bring your A game? Cause those kids are growing fast? The time goes by just like a dynamite blast? Call it astronauts and firemen? Carpenters and muscle men? Get out and be the world to them? Be the best dad you can be Be the best dad you can.

What happens when you combine a love for music, humor, and heartfelt connection? You get the Marsh Family—a musical, tight-knit group from Kent, England, whose story was recently featured on the Dad and Daughter Connection podcast with Dr. Christopher Lewis. In a moving and entertaining episode, Dr. Lewis sits down with Ben Marsh and his daughters, Ella and Tess, to explore what it truly means to connect as a family and nurture confident, independent daughters. You can also find the family on YouTube!

Music as the Heartbeat of Family Life

One of the central themes in this episode is how music has become the Marsh Family's language of love, fun, and togetherness. Ben, Ella, and Tess describe how their music-making began as bedtime lullabies and evolved into viral parodies that resonate worldwide. Yet, at its core, their musical journey remains something deeply personal—a way to create lasting memories while laughing together and sometimes tackling tough topics through humor-filled social commentary.

Intentional Parenting and Meaningful Moments

Dr. Lewis guides the conversation into the small, everyday rituals that make a big difference. For the Marsh family, open conversations around the dinner table—discussing daily highlights and "lowlights"—have become foundational. These practices show how dads (and parents in general) can help their kids feel seen, heard, and valued. The episode highlights Ben's balancing act between guiding his daughters and giving them room to grow, especially as they move through the teenage years, and how parenting "by negotiation" fosters independence and mutual respect.

Navigating Modern Challenges Together

Parenting in the digital age isn't easy, especially for families in the public eye. The Marshes talk candidly about how they handle online attention—both the praise and the criticism—by maintaining open dialogue, deliberate boundaries, and always putting family first. Their rule? Everyone has a veto on family projects and their personal growth takes precedence over public performances.

Connection, Laughter, and Lasting Impact

This episode is packed with relatable stories, sincere advice, and a reminder that authentic connection—as a parent, partner, or creative collaborator—requires presence, empathy, and a willingness to see the world through your child's eyes.

If you're looking for inspiration, new ideas on parenting, or just an uplifting story about a family who sings their way through life's joys and challenges, this episode is not to be missed. Listen to the full Marsh Family interview on the Dad and Daughter Connection podcast, and discover how you can strengthen your own family bonds—one note, conversation, or shared moment at a time.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:02]: Welcome to the dad and Daughter Connection, the podcast for dads who want to build stronger bonds and raise confident, independent daughters.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:12]: If you're looking to build a stronger bond with your daughter and help her grow into a confident, independent woman, you're in the right place. I'm Dr. Christopher Lewis, and the dad and Daughter Connection is the podcast where we dive into real stories, expert advice, and practical tips to help you navigate the incredible journey of fatherhood. In every episode, we'll bring you conversations that inspire, challenge, and equip you to show up as the dad your daughter needs. So let's get started, because being a great dad isn't just about being there. It's about truly connecting. Welcome back to the dad and Daughter Connection, where every week we have a great opportunity to be able to work on those bonds, those connections that we have with our daughters. I love that you come back every week to be able to learn more, to experience more, to hear more, and.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:07]: And really gain insight into how we all are working to build those strong relationships with our own kids, our own daughters. And that's why every week, I bring on different guests, different people with different experiences that can share some of that journey with you. Because all of us are going to father in different ways. All of us are going to be able to build those relationships with our daughters in different ways, but we can learn from each other. And learning from each other is so important. And I always hope that after every one of these episodes, you've gained some, I'm going to say, tools for your toolbox, some things that you can just take with you to be able to start thinking about fatherhood in a little bit different way and give you some things to think about in regards to how you are working on those relationships that you want to have with your own daughters. This week we got an. We've got some great guests.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:04]: And I'm using the plural because we have three guests with us today. They're all a part of the Marsh family. And if you have never heard of the Marsh family, you need to go check them out, because the Marsh Family is a musical family group based in Faversham, Kent, and they are amazing vocalists. The whole family is doing music together. And one of the things that I love is that they are taking music that you know and love, but they're putting their own spin on it. So, you know, I. On their website, they say. They say sometimes compared to the Partridge Family or in Weird Al Yankovit, talk about different types of music.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:46]: But I love it because their music does have Humor and they, they have a ton of parodies that they do together and you can just tell that they really enjoy being together, making music together and creating a family dynamic that is really powerful. So we're going to be talking about this journey that they've been on, not only in their music but also in their relationship as father and daughters. Because I have Ben, who is Ben Marsh, the father of the Marsh family. And then I have his two daughters that are with us, Ella and Tess. So I'm really excited to have them here and to introduce them to you. Ben, Ella, Tess, thanks so much for being here today.

Ben Marsh [00:03:26]: Thanks for having us. Yes, we're delighted to be on the podcast and a chance to kind of reflect. We're usually doing this music at such pace and this household is a very busy one. So it's going to be a bit weird and different to kind of sit down and reflect on parenting modes or childing modes or so. Yeah, really looking forward to the conversation.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:43]: Well, I'm really excited to have you on and I, you know, when I just had dads on, I am able to talk to you just about being a dad to daughters. But I love it when I have dads and daughters on because we can have a little bit of a back and forth here to talk about this journey, I guess first and foremost, Ben, let's I want to start with you and as you think back to the moments that you've been able to share with your girls, what is one of the most meaningful moments that you've been able to share with your daughters and what made it so special?

Ben Marsh [00:04:10]: Oh, there are so many to pick from. I think there was a lovely moment at their grandparents ruby wedding anniversary that involved because as an adult you're kind of used to going to weddings and funerals and those sort of big set piece punctuation occasions and for there to be a moment when the kids were still quite young but you sort of knew they were going to remember it and to have a big kind of festival carnival atmosphere. And actually we did all this was before we shared anything online or shared anything in the real world, the public world. But we did all do a kind of mini musical performance for the grandparents there. And so there happened to be someone that got a photo that got a shot of one of the kids kind of sat on a, on another grandparents lap watching us all performing. And it's just one of those bits that you really feel you, you're going to remember forever and kind of get locked in. And it was a weird mix of Kind of being super proud of the kids having the guts to go and stand there and take a risk. The girls were so excited that what they.

Ben Marsh [00:05:05]: What they do, in fact, they still kind of do it. You can see them tensing up just to stop sort of moving, because they move since being in the womb. But I remember watching them on that occasion, that Ruby wedding, and they were singing and their hands were moving like this as they were performing. So it was a mix of kind of pride, also knowing it was just a lovely moment. You have to savor those little moments before they fly past.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:24]: And Ella and Tess, what would you say to that? What moments really stand out for you?

Ella Marsh [00:05:29]: I'd say for me, it was often on a kind of Saturday morning when we were much younger and it would be us four. We'd wake up quite early and we come downstairs and we have a Wii, which is like a Nintendo brand. And we used to love doing Just Dance. And dad would always come the morning in his pajama bottoms and we'd all be there for hours just kind of working through the Just Dances, which was a very, very memorable moment.

Tess Marsh [00:05:52]: There's so many to choose from. I'd say probably a very recent one that was very like a fun experience. I don't think Ella was there. It was a kind of road trip that me and dad took a couple weekends ago. Went to a friend's house and then our grandparents. And it was just really nice because I don't really get to spend much time alone. It's dad. So it's, yeah, really interesting to just have quite a long time in the gut.

Ben Marsh [00:06:16]: Yeah.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:16]: Now, girls, one question that I have directly for you is, what's one thing your dad does that truly makes you feel seen, heard and valued as a daughter?

Ella Marsh [00:06:28]: I think it's just dinner times every day, kind of when we come in from school, it will always be a how was your day? And he always says highlights and lowlights, which means that we can't just come in and go, oh, it was good, and then walk up off stairs. We just kind of have to sit down and actually have a conversation about our day and give him the rundown of how it was. So it's just kind of that feeling of actually someone wanting to know how your day was every single day.

Tess Marsh [00:06:51]: It's just a nice feeling to come back into. Yeah. And he also remembers all the little things. Like he remembers how I had a horse riding lesson today. So the first thing he says when he sees me is, oh, how was your horse riding lesson? How Was it. So he like remembers all the details.

Ben Marsh [00:07:04]: Are just going that response where they just go. And it happens more as they've gotten older and older and they just go, good. And they leave it there. And so I think the highlights then started from that because I was like, no, I want to know something interesting about your day. Like, I've been at work all day, so like drop me one or two highlights. And then I sort of realized you're only getting like maybe they didn't have a great day or maybe it wasn't just highlights. So I don't know. Is that a made up word? Low light?

Ella Marsh [00:07:28]: I think you just made that up over the years. You just developed that one.

Ben Marsh [00:07:31]: But it's become a thing now, which is nice. Yeah, it's become a. Become a little ritual.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:34]: So, Ben, your daughters are getting older, both teenagers, and you can't stop that. How do you balance guiding your daughters while also giving them the independence to grow into their own person?

Ben Marsh [00:07:46]: That, that is a huge question because I feel like it. The answer to that changes every day. It changes with my mood every day and what I've got on my plate. It changes with their mood every day. It's always a work in progress. I think that's what's key. And I try to be mindful that balance needs to change and you have to sort of move with it. And if there was a pie chart where, when they were much smaller, it felt like the pie chart of my energy and investment and sort of watchfulness, scrutiny, I don't know, whatever you want to call it.

Ben Marsh [00:08:16]: Quite a lot of that, it was like a Pac Man. Like most of that was me. And I wanted to know what was going on with them and where they were. And I think trying to open up that Pacman and give them more time and more space. And it's always a bit of a negotiation, like about screen time, the usual stuff. With teenagers, it's a different challenge. It's kind of screen time. And I think, but, but also as they get older and are making those decisions, it's right that you step back and allow them a bit of that space.

Ben Marsh [00:08:42]: So, yeah, I would be. I think we're doing okay. I think, you know, there are, there are always points where you realize someone's not. Not happy about that balance or about that pie chart. And I wanted to know where somebody was not. Because I. I think it's just when you're in that mode where there's a negotiation in there, it's just important to be up front about why you're concerned. And to make sure that they don't.

Ben Marsh [00:09:04]: I try to make sure that they don't think of me just as a tyrant when it comes to screen time or, you know, that's enough of the laptop. It's coming out of the room because it's been on until. But that. This wasn't long ago. This is like two nights ago. It was kind of on until midnight or something. And that was too late. They were tired the next day.

Ben Marsh [00:09:21]: And so I tried to be just honest with them. Say, listen, if you. If you'd manage to kind of not get tempted into that, and it hadn't stayed on and I hadn't heard it and it hadn't been disrupting me and you will not knack it the next day, it wouldn't have been a problem. But because there's this. You've sort of stepped over that line. And just try and make sure everyone understands it. And most of the time, we're okay. I think in these guys are, you know, get sort of get it and understand that what I'm trying to do is 99.9 of the time.

Ben Marsh [00:09:46]: What I think is in their best interests. It's not for, you know, some other reason. I don't know how you feel about that.

Tess Marsh [00:09:52]: Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:54]: And girls, I guess in the same line of thought, how does your dad encourage you to be confident and independent in each of your lives?

Ella Marsh [00:10:02]: I think for me, it's giving us the choice. So with things like alcohol, which for a lot of young teenagers is quite an interesting thing because they don't often experience it, and it can often lead to problems if they haven't had it. With us, it was kind of like at New Year's you can have a glass with the family. So it wasn't like when we're off with friends, it's a really new thing. And the screen time and stuff, he kind of does it in that he will say, how much do you think you should have? Which kind of sets you back a bit. And you're like, he's giving me the choice. But actually it makes you kind of reflect and be like, oh, okay, maybe I should have an hour and a half a day. And then you kind of reach an understanding where you both agree and you're kind of given that choice as well as realizing that you should probably be mature about it and sensible in your decisions.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:48]: Yeah.

Tess Marsh [00:10:48]: And there's also this stuff about, like, building our confidence. Like, there's been loads of times, I think when we went to America, we went to Universal Studios. There was, like, so many roller coasters, and I didn't want to go on any of them because I'm terrified of roller coasters. Like, he gives us, like, a push, so, like, he'll tell us, oh, no, no, you can do it. But he never, like, pushes, like, too far when I really don't want to do something. He would, like, never force us to do something. But, like, he sometimes just gives us a little push. And then I ended up quite enjoying one of the roller coasters.

Tess Marsh [00:11:17]: Not one of the.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:19]: Now, Ben, none of us are perfect. We make mistakes. What's a mistake that you made as a father and what did you learn from it about fostering a positive connection?

Ben Marsh [00:11:32]: I'm tempted to say you should just ask my wife, because I'm sure she's got a much longer list than I could come up with. She's upstairs. I think there are times when my drive and kind of determination to get something done and the kind of perfectionism that I impose on myself, I think sometimes I put on other people. I have expectations of other people. And there was a time in particular, actually connected to the music because that's something where we're always super mindful of what's a reasonable expectation, what's a benefit to everybody, what's something that everyone's enjoying and when. Have you stepped too far? Like, has any of the kids ever not been able to go to a friend's house or whatever? Because we're doing a music thing and it's become more than just a hobby. And so there was one time, I remember actually with it, with Ella trying to get a sort of cornet part in for a stem for what was going to be a kind of commercial track. And she was doing a brilliant job.

Ben Marsh [00:12:21]: And the cornet's a really tough instrument to play. I can't play the cornet. It's got these valves. I don't understand brass instruments. Right. It's got. So there's all different sort of things can go wrong to do with the lip, to do with the mouthpiece, to do with the valves. And this was also like 8 or 9 o' clock in the evening when she was a bit younger and she was kind of struggling to do it, but she was really only carrying on because she wanted to do it for me.

Ben Marsh [00:12:42]: And that's what she was thinking about. And I wasn't really processing this in the moment. I was like, we have to get this done. So I got caught in a loop that I hadn't realized. And I vividly remember she kind of did her absolute best. We kind of run out of energy. Her lips were really tired and she. She went upstairs.

Ben Marsh [00:12:57]: And then it kind of dawned on me over the next half hour and I went upstairs and I probably don't even remember the conversation, but I vividly remember the conversation kind of going, I'm really, really sorry. I got that wrong. Like, I shouldn't have asked you to do that more. That was unreasonable. So I kind of recognize that one. I'm sure there's loads more that I haven't recognized that maybe they. They can think of. What's lovely is when you watch some of what you've set or you hope that you've set in motion and you see it coming back and it catches you out slightly.

Ben Marsh [00:13:26]: So even to do with like screen time, they're now old enough that they pick us up on the hypocrisy of us going, oh yeah, you're on your phone at breakfast or whatever. And I get a little, a little cheer up a comment from one of them. And I'm like, that's totally fair enough. Like, you can't set one stall out as a parent because you're in parenting mode. And then I guess that's part of the changes dynamic with where we're at now.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:47]: Now you started talking about music, so let's transition over there and start talking about this music. I guess let's go back and tell me a little bit about this journey and how this journey began and what inspired you to start performing together.

Ella Marsh [00:14:00]: So originally, I think we've just done it since we were babies. We did it as kind of family videos we'd send to. And the first one that actually went viral was because we were sending a birthday video to our gran, so it wasn't actually meant to go anywhere. And then I think one of your work friends asked to share it and it went kind of crazy from there. So, yeah, it all kind of originally stemmed from just genuinely wanting to play music as a family because we're very musical. We have very musical genes from our nana and granddad and all of those kinds of people. So it just stemmed, I think, from wanting to play as a family.

Ben Marsh [00:14:34]: We'd always played. It was. It was actually part of the parenting. It was to get the kids to sleep. I mess around on an acoustic guitar and, you know, you might as well do something while you're trying to rock them or they're bored or sing them songs. And it kind of grew into them joining in. So this is going to sound really horrendous. I'm not sure that we've shared it with anyone apart from like our little Patreon community, but we wrote them a song each when they were little and so that they had their, their song.

Ben Marsh [00:15:00]: Actually their elder brother at one stage thought that I don't like Happy Feet or something. The penguin thing where everybody has a song and we're shocked at nursery that other people didn't have a song. So it's always been part of the fabric of the household. And as Ella said, we dance and just using the beautiful, uplifting shared experience of music and dance. And we also used to live in Scotland and our grandparents are all from England, so there were lots of long drives and in the car we would stick on Les Miserables a bit, you know, musical. They'd all join in. So yeah, we'd always been sort of used to singing together. And then it was, it was the pandemic really when nobody had anything to do.

Ben Marsh [00:15:36]: Nobody plus nobody had anything to watch. And then for whatever reason, one of, one of our parodies really sort of caught light and it was, that was, that was a special moment and a big change to our family dynamic because we hadn't really thought that we could reach or engage anyone in the world or in the United States or Australia or other places. And we've ended up with this amazing kind of quite profound. I mean in some level superficial. Like everything online, it's likes and comments and, and repost or whatever. But actually there's a lot that's much deeper there about us now finding out about other people's lives and entering into conversations. And so very gently the music's become a different kind of window on the world that has involved some parenting. And again with independence.

Ben Marsh [00:16:17]: Like these guys didn't have social media accounts of their own as early as lots of their friends as they might have had. But they've had a serious education in what that online world is like, some of which is still is they have direct access to and plenty of which is like monitored by us or has been as parents until they've hit like a teenage years.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:35]: Now talk to me about that creative process because you are doing a lot of parodies in your, you know, you're taking well known music but putting your own spin on it. So talk to me about the process of selecting, adapting and especially as you're creating these parodies that resonate with current events.

Tess Marsh [00:16:55]: Yeah, so normally we just pick like a song that we really like. Like I'm pretty sure we did a recent Bee Gees one that we put on like a summer playlist. Because normally we make like a summer playlist. Like, everyone puts in five songs. Pretty sure it was on last year's one. So we just kind of pick a song that we often listen to or a song that kind of fits with the theme. And then dad will go in a bath or go into his office and write lyrics to it for like an hour or so. And then a couple of times, maybe like after dinner, we'll all get together and he'll give out parts and harmonies.

Tess Marsh [00:17:27]: Sometimes it's a lot quicker. Sometimes we just film it in an hour, like a couple of the Suella Berberman ones. But, like, some of them take a lot longer because they're harder songs. Then we sometimes incorporate instruments and sometimes we just find a karaoke track and sing to them. But normally, like, the parody ones are done quite quickly. Normally, like a couple days.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:44]: And I guess. Talk to me about balance because, you know, balancing everything is not easy, not only as parents, but as kids too. I mean, you've got your lives both inside the family, outside of the family. So how do you balance between being parents, being kids, being performers, and especially as you're working to continue to create these pieces that you're putting out into the world?

Ella Marsh [00:18:11]: I think we see it as kind of. Well, I think for me and maybe Tess, I see it as kind of two different sections of my life. So I have kind of the music element, which, you know, we obviously enjoy doing because we enjoy playing music. But a lot of that is we. We want to do this because we want to make sure the message is being sent out to people in the world. And then I kind of have family and friends time. So, like this summer I've got my big GCSE exams and then I've got an. A long summer to enjoy.

Ella Marsh [00:18:38]: And we've kind of had a calendar. So for times of when we're doing marsh family gigs and things that's booked in. But there's also time for me to kind of go off and do things with my friends to make sure that I do kind of get an equal amount of both in the holiday.

Ben Marsh [00:18:52]: Yeah, I think it's really important that the kids have a. Have a huge say in both in the. In the material. Right. So we've always had a policy where if anyone's uncomfortable with the. The content of a song or the direction or the. The song that's being parody is like a free veto. And yes, you can have a discussion about it and explain it the topic or whatever, but if they really don't want to do it, we're not going to do it.

Ben Marsh [00:19:14]: And so it's important that they know that. And then occasionally we have a bigger kind of family conversation about where we're at. And if people are comfortable, you know, some. Some of them might want to go on to do things connected to music and a career and. And others might not. And Tess has been very, very clear that she's always wanted to be a vet. Veterinary surgeon, is it in the States, or a veterinary practitioner. And that hasn't disappeared, even though she's, like, learned the ukulele and is playing the violin really well and doing loads of singing.

Ben Marsh [00:19:42]: So, yeah, you're right. It's a juggling act and it's about balance. I mean, one of the things that we did decide to do is not try and not. There's obviously lots of other things you can do in the. In this. In the. The space, the engagement space, like podcasting. And we kind of decided we'll do the songs and the songs are going to be enough, and you can choose to increase the number or decrease the number, but, you know, at the moment, we're not doing other.

Ben Marsh [00:20:03]: Other things that you could do as well. So the kind of the four walls of our. Actually, only in the last six months, I think that we've really started doing gigs and concerts outside the house because the kids are old enough and the confidence is there, and it's. It's about pushing yourself as well. It's about saying, okay, what does it mean? What does it mean if you've gone viral and lots of people around the world like, something that's fine, you know, a cat being sick on. On YouTube goes viral or whatever. Like what. What's the deeper meaning here? Where are you trying to get to? And so there are other skills that they get playing live, which has been really tense and it's weird, actually.

Ben Marsh [00:20:32]: The kids have taken to it like duck to water. For Danielle and I, it's. It's quite different. And we. You're suddenly responsible for a live performance. I think we feel much more stress outside the house than these. These guys do because it's a bit more. They're a bit more naturalized.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:45]: You know, a lot of your songs do touch on social and political themes. So what motivates you to incorporate these topics into your music and how do you decide which issues to address?

Ella Marsh [00:20:58]: I think it often comes from us watching the news and seeing things that kind of really resonate with us and issues that we feel very strongly about and we kind of make the decision that we feel doing a song is enough to want to kind of put our message out and kind of want to influence people, to kind of see things from a different perspective of how we feel and the issues that we believe deserve to be talked about.

Ben Marsh [00:21:23]: And I think in some strange way, my training, my background and my job at the moment as an academic historian, which is very much about trying to find balance and objectivity, to look from different perspectives, to put yourself in someone else's shoes, I think. But where the, what the music allows us to is kind of add humor, add performance, add fun, like have fun with some of those themes. So yeah, we've got some things right and I think some things wrong. It attracts, it attracts very different viewpoints because if you're anywhere in politics at the moment is very partisan and it's sort of black and white. And I think actually so fundamentally that's one of the things that keeps us going and keeps us engaging because we don't think that's healthy, that sort of polarization. And it's important whichever country you're in and whichever side of that polarity you're on, if we don't find a point where we can have conversations and kind of share ideas, we're in big trouble. Right. And, and I think that's self evident from, from lots of things that have been going on in the world lately.

Ben Marsh [00:22:18]: How do we heal that? How do we, how do we come together? Well, that's where music and humor. What I love the messages that come from people that probably think differently than I do politically, but who are then able to say, I found, I disagree with the message, but I found this funny, or the girl sang really well. Well. And I really love that people, you know, there's a space there and I often come back and we have some really interesting emails that I would never have had with other people. So it's not about justifying your position or saying, I consume this news and you consume that news. It's kind of saying, you know what, I respect you for reaching out to me and making that comment. And I'm going to, I'm going to go look at the website that you recommended. I probably won't end up agreeing with you.

Ben Marsh [00:22:56]: It's just that space for conversation I think is really, really important. And hopefully the odd parody, humor, sort of political stuff is an interesting way of, kind of, of engaging that. But we also do our own projects as well and our own song. So there's a kind of, it's not relentlessly topical, because I think that would be quite grinding to end up in that mode. And actually, every now and then we sort of pause and say we've got some studio time in the next couple of weeks, that we're really excited about working on some sort of acoustic songs of our own as the kids are writing and singing. So, yeah, as you said before, it's.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:28]: About balance and girls, I guess, for you, I mean, you have that life outside of this. You have your friends, you've got school, you've got other things. How do you balance that public Persona that people may know about around you or maybe not, and the comments that you see out there from the people that like it, and we'll say the trolls that don't like it. And especially as you're dealing with these sensitive topics, I think for me, I'm.

Ella Marsh [00:23:56]: Personally quite quiet about it. Not because I'm embarrassed, just because I'm not the kind of person to kind of want to go out and announce what we do and how it's being received. But lots of my friends will kind of say to me, oh, I saw your video. And I'm like, oh. And I'm a bit shy about it. But, dad, you kind of filter a lot of the YouTube comments and things, which means that kind of some of the nastier ones we don't see, which means that we don't kind of have the impact that some other people might if they were able to see them, which makes it a lot easier to kind of take things as they come.

Tess Marsh [00:24:28]: Yeah, but he also does, like, if there's, like, a really nice comment maybe complimenting our singing, he will always show us the, like, nice one so we can feel good about what we've done, that maybe that video or that day.

Ben Marsh [00:24:40]: And, you know, and sometimes we. We do deliberately look at the problematic comments because that's part of the world and that's what these guys are going to have to deal with. And I'm mortified for them. And it's horrendous. And I'm so glad that there aren't images of me, you know, back in the day and I didn't have to engage with that. But the scale of what's in front of young people at the moment and the pace of technological change, the pace of social and cultural change, it's a tsunami coming at them all the time. And so it feels wrong to hide all the negativity and just kind of be like, oh, look at, I don't know, Instagram, or just look, just find positive places Obviously there's a space to find relaxation and you've got like ASMR kind of videos to, to sort of cuddle you and get you to sleep and, and so on and a space for humor. But like you need to read some of that stuff as well.

Ben Marsh [00:25:28]: It's part of what they're going to deal with and if they. We did a song not, not long ago about, you know, a parody of one of the famous Oklahoma Female songs. Men can't say no we called it. Obviously the original was the girl can't say no. Men can say no. Sorry, Men can say no. So we were playing with that song but. But absolutely about the kind of thing that's in the, in the public domain at the moment.

Ben Marsh [00:25:51]: And yeah, it does come our way online because eventually those trolls are there. We've been re shared by Andrew Tate for instance, which, which then brought a whole load of attention. But these guys need to know who that is and what that world is and why it's important to kind of set different boundaries and that it's okay to carefully and gently push back. I think in some of those areas.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:11]: Now I know you said you have some, some time in the studio coming up that you're excited about. So looking ahead, what are your goals for your music and what does the future look like?

Ella Marsh [00:26:20]: I think obviously we want to keep going with the parody stuff because we do kind of enjoy giving those messages out to people. But I think slowly we're kind of shifting to doing more kind of live gigs. So in the summer we've got a couple of gigs lined up at some festivals and things to kind of develop that kind of performance area for us and keep doing kind of our own music as well as Alfie and Thomas kind of start writing songs as well to kind of put our own element on what we do.

Ben Marsh [00:26:46]: We've always been entirely self managed and home created. And one of the scary steps might be, but perhaps a logical progression might be to reach out and build. Build a larger team than just guys we work at in the studio. So I think when we're feeling ready that might be the next step. But we need to check. Everybody wants to kind of move ahead there. One of the reasons we have kept self managed is because the kids always come first. Right? That's the sort of philosophy and we don't want to make an agreement with someone and then suddenly they don't want to do it and then we let someone down.

Ben Marsh [00:27:15]: So it's been safer in some ways to, to be in the hermit crab shell. But I think increasingly we're going to leave that shell behind and maybe find some rock pools that we know are favorable or friendly or not too scary. And we're really enjoying it and loving it. And so, you know, but we're also very, very conscious, myself and my wife in particular, that we've got four teenagers and they need to. They need to fly the nest, right, and they need to go off and do their own thing. And so I guess our hope is that there'll be some sort of hybrid mode where there'll still be music that they're always welcome to. To come back and share anything that they're able to. We'll be delighted to play with them.

Ben Marsh [00:27:48]: And otherwise we can just revert to being, you know, some sort of wizened wisdom singer, songwriter, doing painful parodies by ourselves.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:58]: So for other families interested in pursuing music together, what advice would you give them?

Ben Marsh [00:28:03]: I said, don't worry about the noise. It's. Look at the smile, look at the rhythm, look at the enjoyment. Like, you can play anything. We started with recorders and ocarinas and terrible plastic guitars that only had two strings or electric things that you press the button. But actually we did try to. To have it as organic stuff. Drums that they could play or maracas or egg shakers or spoons, but something that they're doing in the moment, not a kind of an online game or singing monstersy thing like to.

Ben Marsh [00:28:33]: To do something physical, to play with cups and do raps and just kind of grow it from there. And I think you have to have a high tolerance threshold for noise. Maybe you have to have friendly neighbors or whatever. But I think if we'd stop because someone didn't sound great, we would not be singing together. Like, it's amazing to watch what the. This lot of kind of their development in particular is. They've grown in. In confidence.

Ben Marsh [00:28:55]: And I think it would be foolish to imagine that would have happened had. Had it not been for just laughing when something goes wrong and kind of getting up and going again.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:29:03]: Now I always finish our interviews with what I like to call our dad connection. 6. Six more questions to ask as we finish up today. Are you ready?

Ben Marsh [00:29:11]: Okay.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:29:11]: Okay, girls, what's one word that describes your relationship with your dad?

Tess Marsh [00:29:15]: Dynamic.

Ben Marsh [00:29:16]: Dynamic.

Tess Marsh [00:29:18]: Yeah.

Ben Marsh [00:29:18]: Okay, I'll take that.

Ella Marsh [00:29:19]: I'd say caring. Yeah. Nurturing.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:29:23]: And Ben, one word that describes your relationship with your daughters.

Ben Marsh [00:29:26]: Endeavor.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:29:30]: Ben, what's the best piece of dad advice you've ever received?

Ben Marsh [00:29:33]: I think it would be from my dad. Or is that weird to say I think it's get back on the horse. I think it's, you know, it's. It's one of those old adages, but it's an old adage for a reason, which is don't give up. There'll be things that make you feel really upset. There'll be things that make you feel you're failing, you're ashamed of. You should have done better. Playing on your mind and stressing about the finances, the.

Ben Marsh [00:29:56]: The physicality, the logistics, all that stuff. But, like, just try again. I think that's probably his advice, you know, forgive and get on with it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:30:04]: And girls, what's the best piece of advice your dad has given you?

Ella Marsh [00:30:08]: I think it's quite. It's an often used one, but it works. So if at first you don't succeed, try, try, try again. This is the one that I'd probably use.

Tess Marsh [00:30:16]: Yeah.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:30:17]: What's one activity you and your dad love doing together, Girls?

Ella Marsh [00:30:23]: I think singing. I think it's what we do and it's what we enjoy doing. So.

Tess Marsh [00:30:28]: Yeah, I also enjoy playing Xbox. We play quite a lot of Sims. We've made a Sim save recently. It's quite panickety with the building, the houses and the character. But it's. Yeah, it's really fun.

Ben Marsh [00:30:39]: This is this Sims game, so where it's like a fake world where you create the characters in the environment and so on. And it's very illuminating playing that with one of your daughters because you realize what completely different radars you have for what's going on. Like, I was really interested in the garden and if there was going to be like a little bench or something you could sit on. And I was interested in the ceiling and Tess was very interested in the furniture and the sort of activities and the relationships that were going on. So it was. It's a very safe space to kind of play this game. I think we do. We do play a lot of games.

Ben Marsh [00:31:10]: That'd be one thing I'd say that we love doing. We should never. We always forget when we finally get a game out, a board game or a card game or whatever, how much fun it is. And it's really easy just to go back to phones or the TV or whatever's going on and just to kind of. This is why the road trip was really nice, because you and I played dirty pigs and. Yeah, all sorts of games because we had nothing else to do. And those. Those moments especially, it always annoys you after.

Ben Marsh [00:31:35]: It's like, why didn't I do this last week? Why didn't we do this together? So, yeah, on the back of this podcast, we're going to play a game this weekend.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:31:41]: Ben, if you could give your daughters one life lesson in a single sentence, what would it be?

Ben Marsh [00:31:46]: Value yourself. It would be trust the radar that we've tried to give you and that you have intuitively yourselves and be guided by that. Because I think, you know, when you're an adult and sometimes when you're not and you've lost people in your life and it makes you wonder about the deeper questions. I had a friend that I lost when he was quite young, when he was 29, sadly to sort of cancer. And I always imagined him wherever I lived. I would pick, I didn't quite do the Lion King stars thing, but I would pick a mountain or if we moved house, I pick a tree. And that would be where I would think of what he would say and I would. I hope if we've given you good advice as we've raised you that like, there's a space for you to value yourself and say, what might that suggestion be? And make sure that you try and make good decisions.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:32:32]: And Ben, what's one thing you've learned about yourself since becoming a dad?

Ben Marsh [00:32:36]: I mean, it's been transformative. For me, it's like changed. It became the most important thing I was in that instance. And then again and again if you're lucky enough to have kids or be responsible as a carer. So I think it's pretty simple. But I feel like it's an all consuming thing and I'm a bit scared about what's going to happen when they all go. I'm at the age where some of our friends, that's kind of what happening to you. And this is where suddenly I think I'm going to be the one pestering people on the WhatsApp chat with emojis and things asking for attention.

Ben Marsh [00:33:06]: But that's okay.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:33:07]: And a final question for all three of you. What advice would you give to other dads who want to build a lasting and meaningful relationship with their daughters?

Ella Marsh [00:33:16]: I'd say keep asking and keep listening because ultimately that is the most important thing. So long as you're honest and open, that is the perfect way for a relationship to bloom and for you to really understand each other in that bond.

Tess Marsh [00:33:30]: I'd say probably try and always push yourself to like your best because if you don't, you'll always regret it afterwards. But if you always put like, don't push yourself too far but like, always push yourself to the best of your ability.

Ben Marsh [00:33:43]: I think I come back to try and see any moment, especially a stressful moment, through their eyes. That's when I feel like I've done good dadding, good parenting. That's because I've, I've managed that. And it can be really, really small things and it can be seen quite small in your day and in their day. But if you can grab that moment and just kind of pivot 180 degrees and say, see. Okay, it was like Tess has created a whole new language because she's very into duolingo and languages. So she's created a whole made up language called Kimber. I got it right and nobody was interested in this.

Ben Marsh [00:34:14]: And I noticed she was teaching an AI chat bot her language and I felt absolutely terrible, like, oh, my. Oh, my goodness, she's teaching each other. So I said, go on then, teach me. And so last night, we missed it last night because there was other stuff going on and I remembered that we'd missed me learning a letter and I thought, what does that look like through her eyes? That says, dad's too busy for me and. Or dad wants to play FIFA with the boys, not learn my language. And so looking through her eyes, I need to learn my letter tonight.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:34:42]: So if people want to find out more about all that you're doing, where should they go?

Ben Marsh [00:34:47]: Yeah, we'd love for people to have a listen to join us on our mad, weird family musical journey. They're more than welcome. So the easiest place to go is marshfamilysongs.com which is our website and it's got links to any platform that you like. Probably have some presence there. So, yeah, please do check us out. You can join us if you like what you hear and you want to support us on Patreon as well, which would be fantastic, but we just love having conversations with people all over the world. It's been a really exciting part of what's happened to us in the last three or four years. So check us out and listen to the parody stuff or the exciting original things like the song Ella's Working up that we were singing together the other day.

Ella Marsh [00:35:23]: Yeah.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:35:24]: Well, I will put links in the notes today, but Ben, Ella, Tess, thank you so much for being here. I wish you all the best in this journey that you're on together and I truly appreciate you being here and sharing your journey with all of us.

Ben Marsh [00:35:39]: Thank you. Thank you so much for having us. Yeah. And. And again, thank you for doing what you're doing. I sort of wish there'd been a community that I could have bounced off to and thought about some of these ideas. So it's a fantastic resource for everyone.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:35:50]: That's a wrap for this episode of the dad and Daughter Connection. Thanks for joining us on this journey to build stronger bonds and raise confident, independent daughters. Remember, being an engaged dad isn't about being perfect, it's about being present. If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe and share it with a fellow dad. And don't forget, you can find all our [email protected] until next time, keep showing up, keep connecting, and keep being the dad she needs.

Musical Outro Performer [00:36:21]: We're all in the same boat and it's full of tiny screaming passengers we spend the time, we give the lessons, we make the meals, we buy them present Bring your A game Cause those kids are growing fast the time goes by just like a dynamite blast Calling astronauts and firemen Carpenters and muscle men get out and be the one to.

Musical Outro Performer [00:37:08]: Be the best dad you can be Be the best dad you can be.

Being a present and intentional dad to a daughter is no easy feat. On a recent episode of the "Dad and Daughter Connection" podcast, Dr. Christopher Lewis sits down with Melissa Davidson, certified professional coach and founder of Perceptive Parents, to talk about what it really takes to foster a deep, lasting connection with your daughter. Melissa brings not only her professional expertise, but her very personal story as a mother—one filled with powerful moments, everyday challenges, and honest reflection.

Why Values Matter

One of the core messages from Melissa's conversation is that the foundation of a strong bond starts with understanding and clarifying your own values. Parents—especially dads—often operate on inherited or subconscious beliefs, but Melissa encourages you to pause and ask: "What truly matters to me, and how do I want to show up for my child?" By getting clear on your values, you create a guiding compass that leads to authentic interactions and intentional parenting. Melissa even offers a practical values-based reflection exercise (available on her website), perfect for parents wanting to dig deeper.

Connection Over Perfection

Melissa reminds us that connection is not about being flawless; it's about being present. She openly shares her own parenting missteps, like grappling with her daughter's strong will or misreading her emotional needs—especially when hunger is at play! Her takeaway? Kids do well when they can, and sometimes our job is simply to offer support rather than demand perfection, from them or ourselves.

The Power of Emotional Attunement

Throughout the episode, Melissa stresses the importance of meeting your daughter where she is emotionally. Whether it's putting down your phone to truly listen, holding space for big feelings, or modeling empathy, these moments build trust and teach your daughter that she is valued and heard. Dads, Melissa says, have a unique opportunity to model a new kind of masculinity—one grounded in vulnerability, presence, and authentic connection.

A Legacy of Presence

If you're looking for practical, heartfelt guidance on being a more engaged and "askable" parent—one your daughter can truly open up to—this episode is a must-listen. Tune in for relatable stories, actionable insights, and inspiration to help you become the dad your daughter needs.

Ready to build a stronger bond? Catch the full conversation at Dad and Daughter Connection!

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:02]: Welcome to the dad and Daughter Connection, the podcast for dads who want to build stronger bonds and raise confident, independent daughters.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:12]: If you're looking to build a stronger bond with your daughter and help her grow into a confident, independent woman, you're in the right place. I'm Dr. Christopher Lewis, and the dad and Daughter Connection is the podcast where we dive into real stories, expert advice, and practical tips to help you navigate the incredible journey of fatherhood. In every episode, we'll bring you conversations that inspire, challenge, and equip you to show up as the dad your daughter needs. So let's get started, because being a great dad isn't just about being there. It's about truly connecting. Welcome back to the dad and Daughter Connection. I'm so glad that you're back again this week.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:57]: Every week, we have an opportunity to be able to build those strong relationships that we want to have with our daughters one day at a time. And that's why every week I come back. And I know that that's why you come back, to be able to learn more, to be able to dig a little bit deeper and to be able to explore things that you can do, to be able to build those strong relationships. Every week, I love being able to bring you different people with different experiences that can give you some tools for your toolbox that will allow you to.

Melissa Davidson [00:01:31]: Think about things maybe a little bit.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:32]: Differently, but also be able to consider.

Melissa Davidson [00:01:36]: Things, things that you might never have.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:38]: Thought of, things that you might have tried, but maybe they didn't work the.

Melissa Davidson [00:01:41]: First time, or maybe things that you're already doing and that's okay as well. But this week, we got another great guest.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:46]: Today's guest is Melissa Davidson, who is.

Melissa Davidson [00:01:49]: A licensed professional counselor, educator, and founder of Perceptive Parents. Melissa has over 25 years of experience supporting families, and she helps parents deepen connection with their children by getting clear on their values, improving emotional attunement, and parenting with purpose, not just reaction. Her work blends neuroscience, psychology, and compassion to empower moms and dads alike to raise confident, emotionally secure kids. And today, we're going to be delving a little bit deeper into her own experience at being a mother to a daughter. But also we're going to be exploring how you can strengthen the connection that you have with your daughters through the values that you have as well. I'm really excited to have her here today. Melissa, thanks so much for being here.

Melissa Davidson [00:02:41]: Thank you so much. That might be the most generous introduction I have ever had. I am very flattered. I do need to Give you one correction, which is I'm actually not a licensed clinical counselor. I am a certified professional coach. So you gave me a step up qualification that I wish I had, but I'm not there. But thank you so much for that wonderful introduction.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:03]: I appreciate it. And hey, you know what? Always aim higher so that we.

Melissa Davidson [00:03:08]: It's out there.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:09]: We gave you a bump today.

Melissa Davidson [00:03:11]: Thank you.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:12]: So I always start with some questions about you as a parent and I know that you have a seven year old daughter and I'd love to get to know your relationship with her a little bit more. What is one of the most meaningful moments that you've shared with your daughter and what made it so special?

Melissa Davidson [00:03:28]: Okay, this is super personal, but our daughter was carried by a surrogate for a long, long story that we don't have time to go into today. Our daughter was carried by a surrogate and so I actually got to deliver her and I love telling her the story of that moment when she went from being cared for by this surrogate and grown for the 10 months and then being the first person to actually put hands on her, I literally caught her, which is so amazing. And I feel like I always hesitate to say out loud to my son and to my husband, this was the single most thrilling moment of my life. I don't know that it was the most joyful, but it was the most thrilling moment of my life. And to be able to tell that story to my daughter is just. It's very powerful. My kids joke with me because of how often I tear up and I always tell them, well, I have so much love in my heart. I've got so much joy in my heart right now.

Melissa Davidson [00:04:24]: It's coming out my eyes. So. So my daughter knows that that story really gets me choked up, but I just think it's not an experience that every parent gets to have. It is certainly experience that many parents get to have. It's not one that I expected to have and it is incredibly, incredibly powerful to me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:42]: Now, I know your daughter's still young, but it's not always roses when it comes to raising kids. There's always going to be ups and downs and challenges along the way. What are some intentional ways that you've worked to strengthen your bond with your daughter even when it might be challeng again?

Melissa Davidson [00:04:58]: You're so generous to share that sometimes it's challenging. My daughter is extremely strong willed and as I've coached parents, you know, for years, for so many years, we've talked about how we want to raise daughters who are strong, who are resilient, who won't be rolled over by somebody else. So I try to remind myself that that strong will is an excellent characteristic and one that if I can manage through it in childhood, I really do want to foster. We lock horns quite a and I do need to remind myself that this is an important quality that she is developing. And so I try to lean into those big feelings and remind myself that she's seven and she's being a seven year old and that's okay. And she doesn't have some inner dialogue going on that says I'm going to give my mom such a hard time right now. I'm going to see how hard I can push her. She's being her and we can talk a little bit more as we get into our conversation about expectations that we have of our children.

Melissa Davidson [00:06:00]: I find it it very funny that I coach people in this area and I think the things I focus on in coaching other people are the struggles that I have in real life. So I've got lots of stories about my strong willed daughter and I just have such great admiration for her and for who she's blossoming into now.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:19]: None of us are flawless. We all make mistakes along the way. What's one mistake that you've made with your daughter and what did you learn from it about fostering a positive connection with her?

Melissa Davidson [00:06:32]: So one mistake that I make on a regular basis is underestimating the power of her hunger and how that shows up in her behavior. So we have a constant struggle at the end of the day she's a grazer, so she typically needs a second dinner. And a mistake that I make regularly is assuming at 8:30 at night that she is reasonable and in a position to follow directions. And the truth is she's not. And so when I remember to show up to those interactions knowing that she cannot do as well as she probably would like to because she's hungry and I take out of my mind again, she's giving me a hard time and it's the end of the day I have a whole script that goes on in my head that that talks about why is this child making it so difficult when I should be able to be getting ready for bed myself. I want to take mom hat off and I want to move into me winding down at the end of the day. And I regularly have to remind myself she can't do well right now, she's hungry. A basic need is not being met.

Melissa Davidson [00:07:35]: Her big feelings are trying to communicate that to me and I can either show up with my own big feelings and ratchet up the situation. Or I can remind myself, this is my child doing the best she can and she needs support right now. So how about I show up in a way that's supportive and loving and not ratcheting up the energy level, but really holding space for her big feelings and co regulating to help her kind of come back down and to actually take the food that's being offered, which is its own struggle.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:03]: Sometimes what you just said there really goes into the importance of being able to show your child that they are valued and heard in what they need. What are additional ways in which you intentionally work to make sure that your daughter knows and feels that she is valued and heard?

Melissa Davidson [00:08:22]: There's a really simple one that I know all of us struggle with and that is putting down my device or taking myself off a screen and giving her 100% of my attention when she's asking for it. When she asks me a question and she's telling me a story, I work very hard to actively listen because her words and her stories are important. And I want to be sure that I am fully tuned in to her when we have those opportunities. I remind myself that with a seven year old, my time for this child wanting to fully involve me in everything she does is fleeting. And I feel like if we set the foundation now that her thoughts and her feelings are important, that's going to carry over into teen times, into early adulthood, into the relationship. I hope that we have for decades to come. So it's that very focused attention to show her that she's important, she's not. A side note to something else I'm doing.

Melissa Davidson [00:09:18]: She is my focus and my priority.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:20]: Now I mentioned the fact that we were gonna talk today about strengthening connections through values. And I know you often talk about values as a compass for parent, for dads specifically, how can getting clear on their values shift the way they connect with their daughters?

Melissa Davidson [00:09:39]: So it's about intention, it's about knowing how you want to show up. Dads want this connection with their daughters, and connection can at times be elusive. And I believe that connection can be elusive sometimes because we're feeling triggered and we need to get in alignment with our values so we can show up in an authentic way. So I think a really good step for dads is to be able to examine what's important to me and how do I want to show up and how do I show my child, Like I was just saying with my daughter, how do I show my child how important they are? To me and how important this connection is. I think that caregiving can be very hard when we feel disconnected. And I think disconnection happens when we're triggered. And so I think there's this importance to knowing what our values are. I have a really great exercise that I take parents through.

Melissa Davidson [00:10:33]: And I think any dad could benefit from going through this values exercise so that you really know what's important. And how do my values show up when I'm in connection or in an interaction with my child? Because when you see that, it allows you to make a more intentional. It just allows you to show up more authentically.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:54]: Talk to me about that value exercise. Is it something that you could walk us through today?

Melissa Davidson [00:11:00]: I would love to walk you through it. I will put in a plug if you head to my website, which is Perceptive parents dot com. It is the top banner on the website. There's a link to this activity. Basically, the way it works is I have 20 values. They're really just terms, but things that I have identified. It is not an exhaustive list of values, but I've got 20 of them. And the idea is to go through and to prioritize what's most important to what's least important.

Melissa Davidson [00:11:31]: To take something out that doesn't fit, to put something else in that's not there. The challenge that I've seen for people, and I'm smiling because I feel like this is such an important part of the exercise, is I do not have a definition for any of these terms. So, for example, respect is very important to me. And if you and I sat down and had a conversation and you also said respect is at the top of my list, your definition of respect might be very different than my definition of respect. So part of this exercise is really coming clear with, I value respect, and that means and being able to fill in that blank. I really believe that when everything is a priority, nothing's a priority. So when you say I live by my values, that's beautiful, and that's wonderful. But really understanding what that means, I believe this exercise really gives people an opportunity to dive into what that means.

Melissa Davidson [00:12:24]: Family is my top priority. Family. I value family above everything else. So what does that look like in your life? Because that might look very different between yours and mine. So the idea is review those values. Arrange them. I like to talk about sorting from most important to least important. But I love when I see people grouping concepts together.

Melissa Davidson [00:12:45]: There's no right way to sort them. There's your way to sort them and then being able to have a conversation afterwards. I I love the idea that this can be a do it yourself activity. I also find that this is very valuable to do with a coach, with a partner, even to sit down with a friend, find a fellow dad and walk through this together and compare notes. Because simply the idea of reflecting on what it means and staying open to hearing somebody else's priorities is very interesting. I'd love to share an example of a situation I just encountered with a dad who I coach. I have health and safety as one of the values. I had never before considered mental and emotional safety, and it was so enlightening to me.

Melissa Davidson [00:13:32]: To hear him talk about safety is very important to me. I automatically go to let's. I mean, this is a silly one. Let's keep our fingers out of sockets because that's not safe. Let's make sure that we are taking care of our bodies. But I hadn't previously thought about mental and emotional safety. So the beauty of engaging in this with another person is we've got so much to learn from one another. And I've also found that just because a specific term or value is placed at the top of the heap, that doesn't mean that our values are different.

Melissa Davidson [00:14:07]: That might mean that we are quite aligned, but the language that we use around our values might be different. So it's a review, it's an activity, and then it's sort of a debrief. And this can also be done. I typically do this in two parent families with both parents either working through together or going side by side and then comparing results.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:28]: Sounds like a powerful tool and we'll definitely put a link today in the notes for you to be able to access that and to work through that for yourself. One other thing that you've said in things that I've read is that many parents are operating from inherited or unconscious beliefs. What are some of the common default values we'll say that you see dads carrying and how might they be getting in the way of genuine connection?

Melissa Davidson [00:14:55]: I think there is a lot of importance in that intentionality, in how you choose to show up. So as a dad, do you feel pressure to show up in a way that society might be expecting around? Masculinity equals. Fill in the blank. Masculinity equals I must be respected at all times. Masculinity equals I must be the enforcer on different consequences. I think clearly there is so much great work that has gone on in redefining masculinity. I love the conversations I've had with, for example, Ed Frauenheim. I think he's such a great voice in this space.

Melissa Davidson [00:15:34]: When you think about who would you like to be in this relationship with your daughter, it doesn't have to be a struggle around what is a traditional masculine role. It is who is the parent you would authentically like to show up as. So I think there is a process by which somebody might need to shed the way they were raised and go ahead and boldly step into a different definition of fatherhood and one that will foster a different type of connection going forward.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:03]: One of the things that you really are talking about there is that emotional attunement that we have with our kids. And I know you talk about emotional attunement. What advice would you give to dads who struggle to interpret their daughter's emotional needs or they feel unsure about how to respond with empathy?

Melissa Davidson [00:16:24]: That's a great question. So responding with empathy, I really believe, begins with being able to take your own feelings and process them and treat yourself with grace and kindness and compassion. So I believe it really starts from within. And again, I think some of this can be a challenge when we're butting up against traditional stereotypes of embracing emotion, expressing emotion when you're comfortable modeling an expression of emotion, and that all people experience a range of emotions, and this is okay. I do think there's something really important. I've certainly noticed it more with my daughter than I have with my son. I happen to have. My oldest is a boy, and my youngest is a girl, so my starter child is a boy.

Melissa Davidson [00:17:12]: And I've gotten to move into. We all know if we've got two children, it's like you cut your teeth on that first child, child, and then you get to. You get to approach the second child differently. They've got different needs. I react very strongly when my daughter is expressing strong emotions. I believe as parents, we have this desire to fix a strong emotion, to fix hurt feelings. And I believe there's power in being able to sit in the muck with your child when they're having hurt feelings, to not rush them through it, to empathize with whatever situation is going on, and to show that you're there, to show that you're supportive and that having the answer, having the fix, is not what is necessary. In some of those challenging moments, if.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:55]: A dad is listening and he realizes that he's never really articulated those core values, where should he begin? And how might he invite his daughter into that discovery process?

Melissa Davidson [00:18:06]: So I believe a dad should begin by examining his own values and thinking about where those come from, you know, when I talk about those being baked in. We were all raised in some environment where values were expressed and values have have been internalized and they show up in our life. And I believe you can have conversations where you're able to say, our family is so important to me. I work very hard to show up when it's time to be available to family. This relationship and the love that you and I have for each other is so important to me that I show up in a special way to be available just to you in this time that we have together so you can express it. I also think walking the talk is so important. Know what's important to you. Show up in a way that those values are authentic and it's going to kind of transmute.

Melissa Davidson [00:19:00]: Your child's going to see what your values are, whether you articulate them specifically or not. I have worked with clients before where I would say kids at around. Depending upon the emotional awareness and maturity, kids can participate in this activity too. A dad can sit down with a daughter. Again, I would say maybe around age 12. That's not a hard and fast rule, but in my experience with child development, I think you need to have achieved a certain level of understanding and life experience to be able to be attuned with values. Kids may never have thought about how. How to articulate it before, but it's really cool to watch a parent sit down with a child and actually sort through and talk about what do some of these things mean in our family.

Melissa Davidson [00:19:45]: To me, means X, Y or Z. I can picture this father that I was referring to before sitting down at a time later in life and being able to say, safety is so important. Our mental and emotional safety is so important in this family. And this is how you may have noticed before, this is how I show up in certain situations. To be sure that you feel emotionally safe, to be sure that it's safe for you to express yourself so you can express explicitly, engage in conversation, and you can be very aware of what you are modeling you had brought up earlier. None of us are perfect. There's no expectation that any of us are going to show up to every single interaction with our children in a way that we walk away and say, that rocked. I really knocked that one out of the park.

Melissa Davidson [00:20:30]: That's not the goal. I do think there's space for us being able to say, I really didn't handle that one very well. And I didn't handle it well because. So I think another piece to this is that active reflection that A dad can have with his daughter. If something didn't go right, to be able to say, wow, I wish I had handled that differently. I'm sorry. And I wish I had handled it differently in the future. My plan is to show up in this different way.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:55]: Now, looking ahead, what type, what kind of legacy do you believe a value based, emotionally connected father leaves for his daughter? And how might that ripple out into future generations?

Melissa Davidson [00:21:08]: I believe that our daughter will see what's modeled by their fathers and be able to carry that into who they're looking for in a partner. Again, this is assuming that they are looking for a male partner, but also looking for other men around them to be able to show up authentically and to be able to live by values. So I think when a father models and expresses emotions, lives authentically through these values, he's showing this is real. This is the way people interact. These are expectations you can have of others. Look for this in other people. Surround yourself with people who are also living by their values, who are able to articulate who are showing up authentically. Do I think this is a perfect system? I think it's a great system.

Melissa Davidson [00:21:59]: I obviously, as the developer of it, I think it's very powerful. I hope the legacy is more people are able to show up authentically and be able to better articulate their values. So I think living intentionally, parenting, intentionally seeking connection intentionally and authentically. I don't see how that doesn't leave a legacy. I can't imagine where that doesn't leave a legacy.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:23]: Now, we always finish our interviews with what I like to call our dad connection 6 where I usually ask dads to delve a little bit deeper into their own relationship with their kids. But I'm going to ask you today as well, what's one word that describes your relationship with your daughter?

Melissa Davidson [00:22:38]: Playful.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:39]: Now, I know you work with a lot of dads and you've probably heard some different advice or things that people have shared. What's the best piece of dad advice either you receive or that you've heard people provide?

Melissa Davidson [00:22:51]: I really like this concept that kids do well when they can. So the advice for a dad is know what might be preventing your child from showing up to do well. Kids do well when they can.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:06]: What's one activity that you and your daughter love doing together?

Melissa Davidson [00:23:09]: Oh, we love cuddling and reading together. She's still a cuddler. It's beautiful.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:14]: If you could give your daughter one life lesson in a single sentence, what would it be?

Melissa Davidson [00:23:19]: Don't settle.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:20]: What's one thing that you've learned about yourself since becoming a parent.

Melissa Davidson [00:23:25]: Done is better than perfect. Perfection is not what my children are going to remember. Presence is what my children are going to remember. And I would like them to remember me and think of me as a present parent and not a demanding, exacting parent.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:40]: What advice would you give to other dads who want to build a lasting and meaningful relationship with their daughters?

Melissa Davidson [00:23:47]: I really appreciate this concept about being an askable parent. So I think there are probably some pretty touchy areas that may feel uncomfortable for dads and daughters. I think taking the time to become comfortable with issues that might be going on for a girl and her developing body, I think that's very important not only to have an understanding of what the way the way hormones might impact a girl, the way her body changing might impact the way she sees herself. And getting comfortable in your own private space with how do you talk about those things and being prepared. I think showing up when a daughter asks a dad a difficult question that might feel. Feel squirmy and uncomfortable. Two things. One is you can say, I'd love to answer that question.

Melissa Davidson [00:24:34]: Let's put a pin in that one. Let's come back to it. I need to think about that a little bit. But make yourself askable so that those questions keep coming. There's no shame in any question that can be asked. And I believe being an askable parent is something that will carry through an equality relationship that goes the distance.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:24:52]: Melissa, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for being here today. If people want to find out more about you, about what you're doing, maybe work with you in the future, where should they go?

Melissa Davidson [00:25:00]: I would start with Perceptive parents dot com. That is my website. I also have a loose presence on Facebook. I had to kind of step away from some of my Facebook attention, but I do have a space on Facebook which is also perceptive parents. You can find out more about me just looking up Melissa Davidson on LinkedIn and reach out. I have a. I'm really happy to answer emails if somebody actually has a pressing question and is bold enough to reach out with a question. Melissaerceptiveparents.com delighted to engage with anybody over any parenting issue that could come up.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:25:37]: Well, again, Melissa, thank you. Thank you for being here today, for sharing all of this and challenging us to really delve deeper into the values that we hold innately and the values that we want our children to be able to connect with and to live and to have as a part of their lives. And I truly wish you.

Melissa Davidson [00:25:55]: All the best. Thank you. Thanks for having me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:25:58]: That's a wrap for this episode of the dad and Daughter Connection. Thanks for joining us on this journey to build stronger bonds and raise confident, independent daughters. Remember, being an engaged dad isn't about being perfect. It's about being present. If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe and share it with a fellow dad. And don't forget, you can find all our [email protected] until next time, keep showing up, keep connecting, and keep being the dad she needs.

Musical Outro Performer [00:26:28]: We're all in the same boat and it's full of tiny screaming passengers we spend the time we give the lessons we make the meals we buy them present and bring your AK Cause those kids are growing fast the time goes by just like a dynamite blast Calling astronauts and firemen Carpenters and muscle men get out and be the world to Them.

Musical Outro Performer [00:27:16]: Be the best dad you can be Be the best dad you can be.