The Digital Examen

For many of us, the steady hum of worry feels ever present and hurry has become our default. 

Life circumstances and uncertainties, our own anxiety-bent thoughts, and the constant overwhelm of our news feeds have created a perfect storm for fear to distract us from God’s loving presence. 

As we begin season 2 of The Digital Examen, host Jay Y. Kim sets the tone for the journey ahead—thoughtful conversations with leaders and luminaries on God’s nearness in every aspect of life. 

In this first episode, Kim reflects on his personal journey of parenthood to illustrate the steady closeness and safety God offers his children. Though anxiety and hurry can so easily narrate our lives, God’s presence offers a profound alternative formation. Kim shares how life lived with God is the antidote for fear, and he invites us to notice and receive God’s fatherly love and grounding presence in our everyday.

This episode highlights the following themes:

• Reframing worry by recognizing God’s nearness
• Practical ways to meet with God through the Prayer of Examen
• Biblical insights into God’s love and presence

Links from this episode:

• Read the transcript here 
• Read The Practice of the Presence of God by Brother Lawrence

God is present; do we notice him? As the world gets louder, listening to God’s voice becomes increasingly challenging. We are bombarded by the chaos of our feeds, by distractions both inside and out, and by the everyday cacophony that drowns out the calm of a life lived in close communion with God. In this season of The Digital Examen, pastor and author Jay Y. Kim guides us toward reorienting our lives so that we can notice God with the entirety of our beings—heart, soul, mind, strength—in both the mundane and majestic moments of everyday life. 

Learn more about The Digital Examen

Learn more about your host, Jay Y. Kim

Read Analog Church and Analog Christian by Jay Y. Kim

Listen to Meditations from The Digital Examen

Download a Guide to The Examen.

Links and Credits

✅ Special offer: Visit ivpress.com and use the code IVPOD25 for 25% off any IVP resource mentioned in this episode.

✅ Consulting Producer: Helen Lee

✅ Producers: Christine Pelliccio Melo and Travis Albritton

✅ Production Assistant: Jack Reece

✅ Sound Engineering: Honest Podcasts

✅ Social Media Managers: Allie Noble and Makayla Payne

✅ Podcast Art: Kate Lillard and Elsbette San Blas

✅ Theme Song: "For They Will Inherit the Earth" by Stephen Keech

Disclaimer: The comments, views, and opinions expressed in this podcast are solely those of the host and/or the guests featured on the podcast and do not necessarily reflect the views or positions of InterVarsity Press or InterVarsity Christian Fellowship.

As an Amazon Affiliate, this channel earns commissions from qualifying purchases when you use the links above. 

God is present; do we notice him?

As the world gets louder, listening to God’s voice becomes increasingly challenging. We are bombarded by the chaos of our feeds, by distractions both inside and out, and by the everyday cacophony that drowns out the calm of a life lived in close communion with God.

In season 2 of The Digital Examen podcast, guests like Ruth Haley Barton, Ashlee Eiland, Glenn Packiam, Steve Cuss, Andy Crouch, and others join host Jay Y. Kim to affirm that God is always present and speaking. Through their stories and insights, we will be encouraged to pause and notice God with the entirety of our beings—heart, soul, mind, strength—in both the mundane and majestic moments of everyday life. 

Tune in to episode 1 on January 8, 2025!

This episode highlights the following themes:

• Embracing rest and intentionality in a hurried world
• Recognizing God’s presence in both the ordinary and extraordinary
• Learning from thought leaders on developing slowing spiritual rhythms

Links from this episode:

• Read the transcript here 

The world is full of noise. Many are exhausted by the cacophony and chaos of the modern, digital age, where peace is scarce and self-reflection is infrequent. In The Digital Examen, a podcast from IVP, author and pastor Jay Y. Kim converses with a variety of leaders, pastors, and scholars who are working to reorient their lives in the direction of listening, tuning their hearts and minds to hear the voice of God in all of its clarity, kindness, and strength.

Learn more about The Digital Examen

Learn more about your host, Jay Y. Kim

Read Analog Church and Analog Christian by Jay Y. Kim

Listen to Meditations from The Digital Examen

Download a Guide to The Examen.

Links and Credits

✅ Special offer: Visit ivpress.com and use the code IVPOD25 for 25% off any IVP resource mentioned in this episode.

✅ Consulting Producer: Helen Lee

✅ Producers: Christine Pelliccio Melo and Travis Albritton

✅ Production Assistant: Jack Reece

✅ Sound Engineering: Honest Podcasts

✅ Social Media Managers: Allie Noble and Makayla Payne

✅ Podcast Art: Kate Lillard and Elsbette San Blas

✅ Theme Song: "For They Will Inherit the Earth" by Stephen Keech

Disclaimer: The comments, views, and opinions expressed in this podcast are solely those of the host and/or the guests featured on the podcast and do not necessarily reflect the views or positions of InterVarsity Press or InterVarsity Christian Fellowship.

As we anticipate season two of The Digital Examen releasing this January, many of us are still exhausted by the cacophony and chaos of the modern digital age, where peace is scarce and self-examination is infrequent.

In Meditations from The Digital Examen, a new podcast from IVP, host Jay Y. Kim recalls reflective questions inspired by his conversations with a variety of leaders, pastors, and scholars throughout season one. Through slow yet focused meditative moments, Jay helps listeners pause and tune their hearts and minds to hear the voice of God in all its clarity, kindness, and strength. 

In this first meditation, Jay revisits his conversation with John Mark Comer, who discussed the importance of intentionally examining our rule of life—the daily habits, priorities, and practices that form who we are. Jay invites us to prayerfully consider the current state of our own rule of life and contemplate any changes God may be leading us to make in order to more fully orient our lives around Jesus.

Subscribe to Meditations from The Digital Examen, and stay tuned for season two of The Digital Examen coming in January 2025!

Links from this episode:

• Listen to the original conversation, Examining Your Rule of Life with John Mark Comer
• Watch the original conversation on YouTube
• Read this episode’s transcript here

Learn more about The Digital Examen

Learn more about your host, Jay Y. Kim

Read Analog Church and Analog Christian by Jay Y. Kim

Episode Credits

✅ Special offer: Visit ivpress.com and use the code IVPOD25 for 25% off any IVP resource mentioned in this episode.

✅ Consulting Producer: Helen Lee

✅ Producers: Christine Pelliccio Melo and Travis Albritton

✅ Production Assistant: Jack Reece

✅ Sound Engineering: Honest Podcasts

✅ Social Media Managers: Allie Noble and Makayla Payne

✅ Podcast Art: Kate Lillard and Elsbette San Blas

✅ Theme Song: "For They Will Inherit the Earth" by Stephen Keech

Disclaimer: The comments, views, and opinions expressed in this podcast are solely those of the host and/or the guests featured on the podcast and do not necessarily reflect the views or positions of InterVarsity Press or InterVarsity Christian Fellowship.

An examined life is a thoughtful life. Yet, it is not a life where we merely think of God. Instead, we are called to consider all of reality alongside God.

In this season's finale, Jay Y. Kim concludes with a sincere word of gratitude to the engaged listeners and insightful guests who've made this journey enlivening and reorienting. With a pastoral tone, Kim invites us to fix our thoughts on the God who continually thinks lovingly of us.

He reminds us that the mind of Christ is available to us, as God invites us to notice and enjoy his presence with us here and now. 

We pray this season offers you a clearer vision of an examined life that is stilled on God and meaningful steps towards living at the pace of peace.

Download a reflective guide to The Examen.

This episode highlights the following themes:

• The power of living with our thoughts fixed on God
• Finding moments of quiet in a fast-paced world
• Inviting God into every aspect of our lives 

Link from this episode:

• Read Renovated by Jim Wilder
• Read the transcript here

The world is full of noise. Many are exhausted by the cacophony and chaos of the modern, digital age, where peace is scarce and self-reflection is infrequent. In “The Digital Examen”, a new podcast from IVP, author and pastor Jay Y. Kim converses with a variety of leaders, pastors, and scholars who are working to reorient their lives in the direction of listening, tuning their hearts and minds to hear the voice of God in all of its clarity, kindness, and strength.

Learn more about The Digital Examen

Learn more about your host, Jay Y. Kim

Read Analog Church and Analog Christian by Jay Y. Kim

Links and Credits

✅ Special offer: Visit ivpress.com and use the code IVPOD25 for 25% off any IVP resource mentioned in this episode.

✅ Producers: Helen Lee, Travis Albritton, and Andrew Bronson

✅ Sound Engineering: Honest Podcasts

✅ Social Media Manager: Allie Noble

✅ Production Assistants: Christine Pelliccio and Isis Toldson

✅ Podcast Art: Kate Lillard

✅ Theme Song: "For They Will Inherit the Earth" by Stephen Keech

Disclaimer: The comments, views, and opinions expressed in this podcast are solely those of the host and/or the guests featured on the podcast and do not necessarily reflect the views or positions of InterVarsity Press or InterVarsity Christian Fellowship.

As an Amazon Affiliate, this channel earns commissions from qualifying purchases when you use the links above.

Why is it so hard to make space to hear God’s comforting, loving voice in a world filled with daily pressures and burdens? How do we release ourselves from a spirituality based on “doing” the right things and instead focus on being in God’s presence? It is as we grow to love God’s voice which can fill us with his good gifts of encouragement, reassurance, peace, and hope that we can withstand and resist the cultural pressures around us.

In this episode, host Jay Y. Kim is joined by Kristel Acevedo, spiritual formation director at Transformation Church in South Carolina and co-author of the teen devotional 3 Big Questions That Shape Your Future. Through thoughtful conversation with Kim, Acevedo encourages us to invite God into our often overly-hurried days, embrace all of life as an act of worship, and make time to simply “be” with Jesus.

Drawing from her experience as a youth leader, Acevedo comments on the unique strengths and challenges of teens today and extols Gen Z’s pursuit of sincerity and communal health, traits that can be a model for Christians of all ages.

Listen in to learn how to pause, notice, and surrender to God’s active work in our lives, experience the easy burden Jesus promises, and grow into being full participants in his missional call.

Download a reflective guide to The Examen.

This episode highlights the following themes:

• Spiritual formation in teenagers amid a culture of distractions
• Living a lifestyle of worship and obedience to scripture
• The impact of cultural and political idolatry on spiritual formation

Links from this episode:

• Get to know more about Kristel Acevedo
• Read 3 Big Questions That Shape Your Future by Kara Powell, Kristel Acevedo and Brad M Griffin 
• Read the transcript here

The world is full of noise. Many are exhausted by the cacophony and chaos of the modern, digital age, where peace is scarce and self-reflection is infrequent. In “The Digital Examen”, a new podcast from IVP, author and pastor Jay Y. Kim converses with a variety of leaders, pastors, and scholars who are working to reorient their lives in the direction of listening, tuning their hearts and minds to hear the voice of God in all of its clarity, kindness, and strength.

Learn more about The Digital Examen

Learn more about your host, Jay Y. Kim

Read Analog Church and Analog Christian by Jay Y. Kim

Links and Credits

✅ Special offer: Visit ivpress.com and use the code IVPOD25 for 25% off any IVP resource mentioned in this episode.

✅ Producers: Helen Lee, Travis Albritton, and Andrew Bronson

✅ Sound Engineering: Honest Podcasts

✅ Social Media Manager: Allie Noble

✅ Production Assistants: Christine Pelliccio and Isis Toldson

✅ Podcast Art: Kate Lillard

✅ Theme Song: "For They Will Inherit the Earth" by Stephen Keech

Disclaimer: The comments, views, and opinions expressed in this podcast are solely those of the host and/or the guests featured on the podcast and do not necessarily reflect the views or positions of InterVarsity Press or InterVarsity Christian Fellowship.

As an Amazon Affiliate, this channel earns commissions from qualifying purchases when you use the links above.

More often than not, we approach reading Scripture as a simple means to an end, or a task on our spiritual checklist, instead of as a living text and lens through which to see our lives. How can we become people who meditate on God’s Word day and night out of both habit and delight?

In this episode, host Jay Y. Kim converses with scholar and co-founder of the Bible Project, Dr. Tim Mackie. Together, they explore how immersing ourselves in the communal, family story of Scripture can help us perceive God’s voice. Mackie also shares his pastoral background and personal journey of learning about and loving God’s word, revealing recent experiences that have fundamentally changed his understanding of what it means to be with God in the here and now.

This conversation invites us to approach the Bible not as a mere intellectual exercise, but as a slow, generative way to encounter God, be formed by his truth, and reshape how we view ourselves, others, and the world around us. Tune in to this thought-provoking episode to unearth delight and wonder in your reading and study of God’s word. 

Download a reflective guide to The Examen.

This episode highlights the following themes:

• The Bible as a unified story that leads to Jesus
• Engaging with Scripture as meditation literature
• The personal and communal impact of biblical meditation

Links from this episode:

• Get to know more about Dr. Tim Mackie
• Subscribe to Dr. Mackie’s YouTube Channel
• Learn more about Bible Project
• Read the transcript here

The world is full of noise. Many are exhausted by the cacophony and chaos of the modern, digital age, where peace is scarce and self-reflection is infrequent. In “The Digital Examen”, a new podcast from IVP, author and pastor Jay Y. Kim converses with a variety of leaders, pastors, and scholars who are working to reorient their lives in the direction of listening, tuning their hearts and minds to hear the voice of God in all of its clarity, kindness, and strength.

Learn more about The Digital Examen

Learn more about your host, Jay Y. Kim

Read Analog Church and Analog Christian by Jay Y. Kim

Links and Credits

✅ Special offer: Visit ivpress.com and use the code IVPOD25 for 25% off any IVP resource mentioned in this episode.

✅ Producers: Helen Lee, Travis Albritton, and Andrew Bronson

✅ Sound Engineering: Honest Podcasts

✅ Social Media Manager: Allie Noble

✅ Production Assistants: Christine Pelliccio and Isis Toldson

✅ Podcast Art: Kate Lillard

✅ Theme Song: "For They Will Inherit the Earth" by Stephen Keech

Disclaimer: The comments, views, and opinions expressed in this podcast are solely those of the host and/or the guests featured on the podcast and do not necessarily reflect the views or positions of InterVarsity Press or InterVarsity Christian Fellowship.

The foundations for a lifelong faith begin not in children’s ministry or church programs, but with parents. In a world that pushes us to be distracted, disengaged, and anxious, how can we instead disciple our children from a place of peace, attentiveness, and responsiveness to the Holy Spirit’s work in our family? 

In this episode, Jay Y. Kim is joined by Sarah Cowan Johnson, a ministry trainer, consultant, coach, and author of Teach Your Children Well. Together they explore effective strategies for everyday family discipleship and discuss how parents can be expectant and aware of God’s presence and ongoing work in their children. Drawing on her extensive ministry experience, Johnson emphasizes the importance of parents leading the way in their children’s spiritual formation through attentiveness, countercultural choices, and intentionality in the ordinary moments of family life.

Kim and Johnson also dissect social media’s harmful effects on the wellbeing of youth and encourage parents to create age-appropriate opportunities for their children to learn the spiritual skill of discernment.

Tune in to glean wisdom and approachable practices for raising your children well in an overly-hectic and technology-driven world.

Download a reflective guide to The Examen.

This episode highlights the following themes:

• The role of discernment in managing technology's impact on child development
• Integrating spiritual practices into everyday routines through 'habit stacking'
• Redefining parental success through the lens of eternal values rather than societal pressures

Links from this episode:

• Get to know more about Sarah Cowan Johnson
• Order Johnson’s book, Teach Your Children Well
• Follow Sarah Cowan Johnson on Instagram
• Read The Tech-Wise Family by Andy Crouch
• Visit Dr. Jean Twenge’s website
• Visit Jonathan Haidt’s website
• Watch Soul Searching: A Movie About Teenagers and God, directed by Richard Eaton & Michael Eaton, and co-directed by Christian Smith
• Read the transcript here

The world is full of noise. Many are exhausted by the cacophony and chaos of the modern, digital age, where peace is scarce and self-reflection is infrequent. In “The Digital Examen”, a new podcast from IVP, author and pastor Jay Y. Kim converses with a variety of leaders, pastors, and scholars who are working to reorient their lives in the direction of listening, tuning their hearts and minds to hear the voice of God in all of its clarity, kindness, and strength.

Learn more about The Digital Examen

Learn more about your host, Jay Y. Kim

Read Analog Church and Analog Christian by Jay Y. Kim

Links and Credits

✅ Special offer: Visit ivpress.com and use the code IVPOD25 for 25% off any IVP resource mentioned in this episode.

✅ Producers: Helen Lee, Travis Albritton, and Andrew Bronson

✅ Sound Engineering: Honest Podcasts

✅ Social Media Manager: Allie Noble

✅ Production Assistants: Christine Pelliccio and Isis Toldson

✅ Podcast Art: Kate Lillard

✅ Theme Song: "For They Will Inherit the Earth" by Stephen Keech

Disclaimer: The comments, views, and opinions expressed in this podcast are solely those of the host and/or the guests featured on the podcast and do not necessarily reflect the views or positions of InterVarsity Press or InterVarsity Christian Fellowship.

As an Amazon Affiliate, this channel earns commissions from qualifying purchases when you use the links above.

Christians may believe, intellectually and theologically, that God is ever-present. But is our lived experience one that recognizes and relies on God’s radical availability? On any given day, at any given moment, how much do any of us recognize the nearness and wellspring of God’s love, grace, and mercy?

In this episode, host Jay Kim converses with Rich Villodas, lead pastor of New Life Fellowship and an influential voice in spiritual formation. Together, they explore insights from Villodas's discipleship journey and his vision for a life of peace that draws deeply from God’s presence and loving attentiveness.

With insights from his latest book, Good and Beautiful and Kind, Villodas challenges us to meet God’s grace with personal effort to encounter him, whether daily, weekly, monthly, or yearly, and provides practical guidance from his own spiritual rhythms.

Tune in to learn everyday practices that can help your interior life flourish and increase your awareness of God’s presence, available to you at every moment.

Download a reflective guide to The Examen.

This episode highlights the following themes:

• The multi-layered nature of sin as a failure to love, beyond mere rule-breaking
• The balance between grace and effort in experiencing God’s presence
• Practical ways to live in sacrificial love, rooted in the example of Jesus

Links from this episode:

• Get to know more about Rich Villodas
• Order Villodas’ book, Good and Beautiful and Kind
• Read Emotionally Healthy Spirituality by Pete Scazzero
• Check out New Life Fellowship
• Read the transcript here

The world is full of noise. Many are exhausted by the cacophony and chaos of the modern, digital age, where peace is scarce and self-reflection is infrequent. In “The Digital Examen”, a new podcast from IVP, author and pastor Jay Y. Kim converses with a variety of leaders, pastors, and scholars who are working to reorient their lives in the direction of listening, tuning their hearts and minds to hear the voice of God in all of its clarity, kindness, and strength.

Learn more about The Digital Examen

Learn more about your host, Jay Y. Kim

Read Analog Church and Analog Christian by Jay Y. Kim

Links and Credits

✅ Special offer: Visit ivpress.com and use the code IVPOD25 for 25% off any IVP resource mentioned in this episode.

✅ Producers: Helen Lee, Travis Albritton, and Andrew Bronson

✅ Sound Engineering: Honest Podcasts

✅ Social Media Manager: Allie Noble

✅ Production Assistants: Christine Pelliccio and Isis Toldson

✅ Podcast Art: Kate Lillard

✅ Theme Song: "For They Will Inherit the Earth" by Stephen Keech

Disclaimer: The comments, views, and opinions expressed in this podcast are solely those of the host and/or the guests featured on the podcast and do not necessarily reflect the views or positions of InterVarsity Press or InterVarsity Christian Fellowship.

As an Amazon Affiliate, this channel earns commissions from qualifying purchases when you use the links above.

How can we avoid burnout, live in peace, and grow in greater awareness of God’s presence with us? 

In a world that vies for our attention with relentless distractions, practicing Christian mindfulness may offer a way of resistance and renewal. 

In this episode, host Jay Y. Kim welcomes Dr. Regina Trammel, a licensed therapist, respected academic, and the author of The Counselor's Guide to Christian Mindfulness. As a second-generation Chinese-American, Dr. Trammel draws from familial and cultural practices, her clinical experience, and her Christian faith to present an enriching understanding of Christian mindfulness.

Together, Kim and Dr. Trammel explore the profound connection between trust, peace, and presence, as well as the essential way in which the body, soul, and mind are integratively united and in need of God’s rejuvenative care. 

Tune in to learn transformative practices that have the power to form us into people characterized by peace.

Download a reflective guide to The Examen.

This episode highlights the following themes:

• Christian mindfulness as a transformative practice
• The battle against the digital age's distractions
• Peace as a state of being versus a fleeting emotion

Links from this episode:

• Get to know more about Regina Trammel
• Follow Regina on Instagram
• Read The Counselor's Guide to Christian Mindfulness by Regina Trammel
• Read the transcript here

The world is full of noise. Many are exhausted by the cacophony and chaos of the modern, digital age, where peace is scarce and self-reflection is infrequent. In “The Digital Examen”, a new podcast from IVP, author and pastor Jay Y. Kim converses with a variety of leaders, pastors, and scholars who are working to reorient their lives in the direction of listening, tuning their hearts and minds to hear the voice of God in all of its clarity, kindness, and strength.

Learn more about The Digital Examen

Learn more about your host, Jay Y. Kim

Read Analog Church and Analog Christian by Jay Y. Kim

Links and Credits

✅ Special offer: Visit ivpress.com and use the code IVPOD25 for 25% off any IVP resource mentioned in this episode.

✅ Producers: Helen Lee, Travis Albritton, and Andrew Bronson

✅ Sound Engineering: Honest Podcasts

✅ Social Media Manager: Allie Noble

✅ Production Assistants: Christine Pelliccio and Isis Toldson

✅ Podcast Art: Kate Lillard

✅ Theme Song: "For They Will Inherit the Earth" by Stephen Keech

Disclaimer: The comments, views, and opinions expressed in this podcast are solely those of the host and/or the guests featured on the podcast and do not necessarily reflect the views or positions of InterVarsity Press or InterVarsity Christian Fellowship.

As an Amazon Affiliate, this channel earns commissions from qualifying purchases when you use the links above.

Do you feel like the only ways to cultivate your life with God are through spiritual disciplines such as Bible study and prayer? What if you could arrange your entire life in a way that empowers you to encounter God in all things?

In this episode, Jay Y. Kim is joined by bestselling author and speaker John Ortberg. Through wrestling with the limitations of his own faith upbringing, Ortberg has learned to instead hunger for real and accessible transformation that is Christ-shaped and all-encompassing. 

Together they envision and reflect on a way of life that goes beyond mere religious activities and devotional efforts. Ortberg also exposes the common struggle of seeking after performance in spiritual growth and offers us practical steps toward a better way—one of trust and surrender to God’s timing and wisdom.

This rich dialogue also spotlights the "Become New" content series crafted by Ortberg, which focuses on cultivating the whole-life discipleship so many of us desire. 

If you often feel discouraged about your spiritual life or find it difficult to hear God’s voice, Kim and Ortberg offer hopeful ideas for everyday engagement with God as our home.

Download a reflective guide to The Examen.

This episode highlights the following themes:

• Practical ways to abide with God amidst daily pressures
• The challenge of spiritual transformation beyond religious activities
• Redefining “success” in our spiritual journeys to resist performance culture

Links from this episode:

• Get to know more about John Ortberg
• Subscribe to Become New to receive daily emails and devotional content
• Read The Spirit of the Disciplines by Dallas Willard
• Read Soul Keeping by John Ortberg
• Read Eternity Is Now in Session by John Ortberg
• Read the transcript here

The world is full of noise. Many are exhausted by the cacophony and chaos of the modern, digital age, where peace is scarce and self-reflection is infrequent. In “The Digital Examen”, a new podcast from IVP, author and pastor Jay Y. Kim converses with a variety of leaders, pastors, and scholars who are working to reorient their lives in the direction of listening, tuning their hearts and minds to hear the voice of God in all of its clarity, kindness, and strength.

Learn more about The Digital Examen

Learn more about your host, Jay Y. Kim

Read Analog Church and Analog Christian by Jay Y. Kim

Links and Credits

✅ Special offer: Visit ivpress.com and use the code IVPOD25 for 25% off any IVP resource mentioned in this episode.

✅ Producers: Helen Lee, Travis Albritton, and Andrew Bronson

✅ Sound Engineering: Honest Podcasts

✅ Social Media Manager: Allie Noble

✅ Production Assistants: Christine Pelliccio and Isis Toldson

✅ Podcast Art: Kate Lillard

✅ Theme Song: "For They Will Inherit the Earth" by Stephen Keech

Disclaimer: The comments, views, and opinions expressed in this podcast are solely those of the host and/or the guests featured on the podcast and do not necessarily reflect the views or positions of InterVarsity Press or InterVarsity Christian Fellowship.

As an Amazon Affiliate, this channel earns commissions from qualifying purchases when you use the links above.