Dr. Allen Frances, who chaired the DSM-IV Task Force, joins us for a candid and at times tense conversation. Known for his warnings about psychiatric overdiagnosis, Frances shares insights on the medicalisation of ordinary life, the autism diagnosis boom, and his philosophy of diagnostic caution. But the discussion takes an unexpected turn when it comes to gender dysphoria, revealing a sharp divergence between his views and those of the hosts. This episode is a striking example of respectful disagreement on a deeply complex issue.