Fleet may be a small world, but Utah shows just how powerful that network can become.

In this episode of The Fleet Success Show, Marc Canton is joined by Steve Saltzgiver and Nathan Schafer to look back at decades of fleet management in Utah and the systems, relationships, and leadership that helped shape the state’s fleet community.

Steve shares the story of his time with the State of Utah, including the expansion of its fuel network and the effort to consolidate roughly 30 independent state fleets. Nathan reflects on his years managing fleets in the Salt Lake Valley and how Utah’s network of fleet professionals gave managers a place to compare notes, solve problems, challenge vendors, and learn from experienced leaders.

The conversation also comes full circle as the group discusses RTA’s partnership with the State of Utah Division of Fleet Operations and the connections that brought their careers together years later.

They also dig into a bigger lesson for fleet leaders everywhere: you don’t have to figure everything out alone.

Strong fleet communities create opportunities to benchmark performance, challenge assumptions, share hard-earned knowledge, and ultimately build better operations.

In this episode, you’ll hear about:

If you lead a public fleet, this episode is a reminder that fleet success isn’t built through software or processes alone. It also comes from the people, expertise, systems, and relationships that help you continuously improve.

Build the fleet you’re proud to lead.

Marc Canton

Marc Canton is Vice President of Fleet Strategy at RTA Fleet and host of The Fleet Success Show, where he brings together experienced fleet professionals to share practical lessons that help fleet leaders strengthen their operations and lead with confidence.

Steve Saltzgiver

Steve Saltzgiver is a veteran fleet leader and consultant with decades of public-sector fleet experience, including leadership roles with West Jordan City, Utah Transit Authority, and the State of Utah. As Utah’s Director of Fleet Operations, he helped lead efforts to consolidate the state’s fleet operations and strengthen its shared fleet infrastructure.

Nathan Schafer

Nathan Schafer is an experienced public-sector fleet professional and member of the RTA Fleet team. He previously spent six years leading fleet operations for Sandy City, Utah, and brings firsthand experience in fleet management, peer collaboration, and operational improvement.

Looking to take the next step to fleet success? Start by requesting your free copy of The Fleet Success Playbook. Written by fleet professionals for fleet professionals, the Playbook breaks down the four key pillars of fleet success, and gives you the tools you need to build a truly great fleet. 

Request your free (yes, really, free!) copy here: https://rtafleet.com/resources/fleet-success-playbook?utm_source=simplecast&utm_medium=footer_notes&utm_campaign=episode_213

Control fleet chaos with RTA Fleet360, proven software designed by fleet managers for fleet managers: https://rtafleet.com/book-a-demo?utm_source=simplecast&utm_medium=footer_notes&utm_campaign=episode_213 

Is AI really coming for fleet technicians? Or is it about to make them more valuable than ever?

Recorded live from the Government Fleet Expo (GFX) in Long Beach, California, Marc Canton and Facundo Tassara have an unscripted conversation covering the biggest trends shaping the future of fleet management. From artificial intelligence and robotics to technician shortages, fleet analytics, benchmarking, leadership development, and government fleet collaboration, this episode explores what public fleet leaders should be paying attention to over the next five years.

The discussion goes beyond AI hype to examine how artificial intelligence will transform diagnostics, analytics, and decision-making—not replace experienced fleet professionals. Marc and Facundo also reflect on lessons from GFX, why Florida government fleets consistently rank among the nation's best, how collaboration drives operational excellence, and why future fleet leaders will need stronger business and leadership skills than ever before.

Whether you're a fleet manager, maintenance supervisor, public works leader, or municipal executive, this episode offers practical insights into how technology, data, and leadership are reshaping the fleet industry.

This episode is valuable for:

Marc Canton serves as Vice President of Fleet Success at RTA Fleet and is an award-winning fleet management leader with extensive experience leading public sector fleet operations. He works closely with fleet organizations across North America, helping them improve fleet performance, increase asset availability, strengthen leadership capabilities, and leverage technology to eliminate operational blind spots. Marc regularly speaks at fleet industry conferences and co-hosts The Fleet Success Show, where he shares practical strategies for modern fleet management.

Facundo Tassara is a fleet industry leader at RTA Fleet who works directly with fleet organizations to improve operational performance and share best practices across the industry. Through consulting, customer engagement, and industry events, he helps public sector fleets solve operational challenges, adopt emerging technologies, and build stronger maintenance organizations. Facundo frequently co-hosts The Fleet Success Show, bringing practical, experience-based insights to conversations on fleet leadership and innovation.

Looking to take the next step to fleet success? Start by requesting your free copy of The Fleet Success Playbook. Written by fleet professionals for fleet professionals, the Playbook breaks down the four key pillars of fleet success, and gives you the tools you need to build a truly great fleet. 

Request your free (yes, really, free!) copy here: https://rtafleet.com/resources/fleet-success-playbook?utm_source=simplecast&utm_medium=footer_notes&utm_campaign=episode_213

Control fleet chaos with RTA Fleet360, proven software designed by fleet managers for fleet managers: https://rtafleet.com/book-a-demo?utm_source=simplecast&utm_medium=footer_notes&utm_campaign=episode_213 

What happens when a longtime fleet leader admits they were completely wrong about electric vehicles?

In Episode 239 of The Fleet Success Show, Facundo Tassara sits down with Jen Brown, Facilities and Fleet Section Director for the City of Flagstaff, to discuss one of the biggest mindset shifts happening in public fleet today.

After spending decades believing EVs weren't the future of fleet management, Jen shares why real-world experience changed her perspective—and why keeping an open mind may be one of the most important leadership skills in today's rapidly evolving fleet industry.

The conversation also dives deep into how artificial intelligence is transforming fleet operations. Jen explains how she used AI to tackle an entirely new department with confidence, the framework every fleet professional should use before trusting AI-generated information, and how leaders can leverage AI without sacrificing authenticity or accountability.

Beyond technology, Jen reflects on her leadership journey—from 911 dispatcher and police support services to leading public fleet operations—and shares practical advice on earning trust, building high-performing shop cultures, advocating for technicians, and helping fleet teams feel seen and valued.

Whether you're evaluating EVs, exploring AI, leading technicians, or simply looking to become a stronger fleet leader, this episode delivers practical insights you can apply immediately.

If you're responsible for public works, municipal fleet management, government fleet operations, fleet maintenance, or shop leadership, this episode is packed with actionable advice to help you lead with greater confidence.

Jen Brown is the Facilities and Fleet Section Director for the City of Flagstaff, Arizona, where she oversees municipal fleet operations, facilities, and custodial services. Beginning her public service career as a records clerk before becoming a 911 dispatcher, Jen spent more than two decades with the Flagstaff Police Department before transitioning into fleet leadership.

Known for her people-first leadership style, Jen is passionate about developing strong shop cultures, empowering technicians, embracing innovation, and helping public fleet organizations adopt emerging technologies like artificial intelligence responsibly. She frequently speaks on leadership, women in fleet, and practical AI applications for public sector operations.

Facundo Tassara is the host of The Fleet Success Show and Director of Marketing at RTA Fleet. He interviews leading fleet professionals, industry experts, and innovators to uncover practical strategies that help fleet leaders improve operations, develop their teams, and build fleets they're proud to lead. His work focuses on leadership, fleet technology, organizational culture, and advancing the fleet profession.

Looking to take the next step to fleet success? Start by requesting your free copy of The Fleet Success Playbook. Written by fleet professionals for fleet professionals, the Playbook breaks down the four key pillars of fleet success, and gives you the tools you need to build a truly great fleet. 

Request your free (yes, really, free!) copy here: https://rtafleet.com/resources/fleet-success-playbook?utm_source=simplecast&utm_medium=footer_notes&utm_campaign=episode_213

Control fleet chaos with RTA Fleet360, proven software designed by fleet managers for fleet managers: https://rtafleet.com/book-a-demo?utm_source=simplecast&utm_medium=footer_notes&utm_campaign=episode_213 

What does it take to manage one of the most unique fleet operations in government?

In this episode of the Fleet Success Show, host Marc Canton sits down with Jeffrey Dickman, Equipment Shop Supervisor for the Arizona Department of Corrections, Rehabilitation & Reentry, to discuss the realities of maintaining a prison fleet with the help of inmate mechanics.

Jeff oversees maintenance operations at one of Arizona's correctional facilities, managing everything from patrol trucks and SUVs to heavy equipment, backhoes, graders, bulldozers, and long-haul trucks. Together, Marc and Jeff explore how correctional fleets operate like miniature cities, the challenges of balancing mission-critical vehicle availability with limited budgets, and why fleet managers need better data to justify fleet size, replacement funding, and operational decisions.

The conversation dives into topics every public fleet leader faces—including fleet right-sizing, vehicle replacement strategies, total cost of ownership (TCO), preventative maintenance compliance, technician shortages, chargebacks, budgeting, and using fleet data to build credibility with leadership.

Whether you manage a city, county, state, university, corrections, or utility fleet, this episode offers practical lessons on how data-driven fleet management helps eliminate blind spots, improve vehicle availability, and strengthen leadership conversations.

If you're responsible for fleet operations, asset management, public works, corrections, or government fleet budgeting, this conversation is packed with actionable ideas you can implement immediately.

Marc Canton is Vice President of Fleet Strategy at RTA Fleet and host of the Fleet Success Show. A former public fleet leader, Marc helps government and enterprise fleets improve fleet availability, reduce operational blind spots, and make data-driven decisions through modern fleet management strategies. With decades of hands-on fleet experience, he regularly speaks on fleet leadership, asset lifecycle management, maintenance operations, replacement planning, budgeting, and performance benchmarking. Marc works with fleet organizations across North America to build safer, more efficient, and more accountable fleet operations.

Jeffrey Dickman is an Equipment Shop Supervisor with the Arizona Department of Corrections, Rehabilitation & Reentry, where he oversees fleet maintenance operations for one of the state's correctional complexes. He manages a diverse fleet that includes patrol vehicles, heavy equipment, utility vehicles, and long-haul trucks while leading a maintenance team consisting of staff technicians and inmate mechanics. Jeffrey is passionate about data-driven fleet management, preventative maintenance, replacement planning, and developing vocational skills that help prepare incarcerated individuals for successful careers after release.

Looking to take the next step to fleet success? Start by requesting your free copy of The Fleet Success Playbook. Written by fleet professionals for fleet professionals, the Playbook breaks down the four key pillars of fleet success, and gives you the tools you need to build a truly great fleet. 

Request your free (yes, really, free!) copy here: https://rtafleet.com/resources/fleet-success-playbook?utm_source=simplecast&utm_medium=footer_notes&utm_campaign=episode_213

Control fleet chaos with RTA Fleet360, proven software designed by fleet managers for fleet managers: https://rtafleet.com/book-a-demo?utm_source=simplecast&utm_medium=footer_notes&utm_campaign=episode_213 

After more than 40 years in fleet management, Patti Earley has seen just about everything: from managing a statewide fleet consolidation to leading fleet fuel operations for Florida Power & Light (FPL) through hurricane response and emergency operations.

In this episode of The Fleet Success Show, Women in Fleet Series, Patti shares the lessons she's learned throughout her career, why stepping outside your comfort zone can change everything, and what today's fleet professionals can do to become stronger leaders.

Whether you're a fleet manager, maintenance supervisor, public works leader, or someone considering a career in fleet, this conversation is packed with practical leadership advice and real-world experience.

If you're looking to become a more effective fleet leader, this episode offers decades of experience you can immediately apply.

Facundo Tassara

Facundo Tassara is the host of The Fleet Success Show and a fleet industry leader passionate about helping fleet professionals grow through practical conversations, leadership development, and real-world operational insights. With experience managing public fleets and serving the fleet community through NAFA and industry advocacy, Facundo brings engaging discussions with the people shaping the future of fleet management.

Patti Earley

Patti Earley is the Fleet Fuel Operations Manager at Florida Power & Light and has spent more than 40 years in fleet management. Throughout her career, she has led fleet operations in higher education, state government, and one of the nation's largest electric utilities. A former NAFA President, educator, and recipient of the Tom Johnson Award, Patti is widely respected for her leadership, commitment to advancing the profession, and passion for mentoring the next generation of fleet professionals. She also helped lead FPL's fleet to the #1 ranking in NAFA's 100 Best Fleets Commercial category.

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Looking to take the next step to fleet success? Start by requesting your free copy of The Fleet Success Playbook. Written by fleet professionals for fleet professionals, the Playbook breaks down the four key pillars of fleet success, and gives you the tools you need to build a truly great fleet. 

Request your free (yes, really, free!) copy here: https://rtafleet.com/resources/fleet-success-playbook?utm_source=simplecast&utm_medium=footer_notes&utm_campaign=episode_213

Control fleet chaos with RTA Fleet360, proven software designed by fleet managers for fleet managers: https://rtafleet.com/book-a-demo?utm_source=simplecast&utm_medium=footer_notes&utm_campaign=episode_213 

Artificial intelligence is changing fleet management faster than most organizations realize. But can AI—and eventually humanoid robots—actually solve the fleet technician shortage?

In this episode of The Fleet Success Show, host Marc Canton sits down with Jacob Turley, VP of Innovation at RTA Fleet, live from the Government Fleet Expo (GFX), to explore what AI means for public sector and enterprise fleets today, and where it's headed next.

From AI-powered fleet analytics and intelligent workflows to technician productivity, preventive maintenance, data security, procurement challenges, and the future of autonomous robotics, this conversation separates the hype from reality and gives fleet leaders practical guidance on how to prepare.

Whether you manage a city fleet, county fleet, utility, transit agency, school district, or enterprise maintenance operation, you'll walk away with actionable insights on using AI to improve fleet availability, reduce administrative burden, and make more confident, data-driven decisions.

If you're responsible for fleet maintenance, fleet operations, public works, transit, utilities, or government fleet management, this episode will help you better understand how AI can eliminate operational blind spots, improve technician efficiency, and prepare your organization for what's next.

Marc Canton is Vice President of Fleet Strategy at RTA Fleet and host of The Fleet Success Show. A nationally recognized fleet management leader, Marc works with public sector and enterprise fleets to improve operational performance, maximize fleet availability, strengthen leadership, and help organizations build fleets they're proud to lead.

Jacob Turley is Vice President of Innovation at RTA Fleet, where he leads software engineering and product innovation for Fleet360. With a background spanning technical support, quality assurance, software engineering, and engineering leadership, Jacob focuses on applying emerging technologies—including artificial intelligence—to solve real-world challenges facing fleet professionals. His work centers on building tools that simplify fleet operations, improve decision-making, and help organizations operate more efficiently.

Learn more about RTA Fleet:

Fleet consulting services:

Subscribe for more conversations with industry leaders covering fleet management, technician recruitment, fleet technology, preventive maintenance, public sector operations, and the future of fleet.

Looking to take the next step to fleet success? Start by requesting your free copy of The Fleet Success Playbook. Written by fleet professionals for fleet professionals, the Playbook breaks down the four key pillars of fleet success, and gives you the tools you need to build a truly great fleet. 

Request your free (yes, really, free!) copy here: https://rtafleet.com/resources/fleet-success-playbook?utm_source=simplecast&utm_medium=footer_notes&utm_campaign=episode_213

Control fleet chaos with RTA Fleet360, proven software designed by fleet managers for fleet managers: https://rtafleet.com/book-a-demo?utm_source=simplecast&utm_medium=footer_notes&utm_campaign=episode_213 

Artificial intelligence is changing fleet management faster than almost any technology in recent memory. From answering questions about preventive maintenance compliance to analyzing technician productivity and generating reports in seconds, AI is helping fleet professionals spend less time searching for data and more time making informed decisions.

In Part 2 of this conversation, Josh Turley, CEO of RTA, and Marc Canton, Vice President of Fleet Strategy, explore how AI is reshaping fleet management software and why purpose-built, fleet-specific AI is becoming the next evolution of modern fleet operations. They discuss the limitations of general AI tools like ChatGPT and Claude, the importance of fleet context and secure data access, and how conversational AI is making fleet reporting, maintenance analysis, and operational insights easier than ever.

Whether you're exploring AI for fleet management, looking to improve fleet reporting, or wondering how artificial intelligence can help your maintenance operation, this episode offers practical strategies that fleet leaders can begin using today.

Whether you're just beginning to explore artificial intelligence or already using AI in your fleet operation, this episode provides practical ideas for improving productivity while helping your organization make faster, more informed decisions.

Josh Turley — CEO, RTA: The Fleet Success Company

Josh Turley is the CEO of RTA: The Fleet Success Company. His passion is helping people work ON their fleets, rather than IN them. He is a little crazy about company culture and believes it is the most important thing a company can get right if they want to experience clarity, confidence, and peace of mind instead of chaos and stress. That belief is at the core of what drives the work at RTA, which currently helps nearly 700 public fleets succeed. Josh is the co-author of The Fleet Success Playbook, the host of The Fleet Success Show, and a frequent speaker at fleet events nationwide.

Marc Canton — VP of Fleet Strategy, RTA Fleet

Marc Canton brings more than 20 years of experience in university transportation, logistics, and government fleet management and consulting. He currently leads fleet strategy at RTA, where he is building the FMIS of the future. Marc takes a data-driven approach to optimizing fleet operations with a focus on high availability and efficiency, and is committed to advancing the industry through education and collaboration.

Looking to take the next step to fleet success? Start by requesting your free copy of The Fleet Success Playbook. Written by fleet professionals for fleet professionals, the Playbook breaks down the four key pillars of fleet success, and gives you the tools you need to build a truly great fleet. 

Request your free (yes, really, free!) copy here: https://rtafleet.com/resources/fleet-success-playbook?utm_source=simplecast&utm_medium=footer_notes&utm_campaign=episode_213

Control fleet chaos with RTA Fleet360, proven software designed by fleet managers for fleet managers: https://rtafleet.com/book-a-demo?utm_source=simplecast&utm_medium=footer_notes&utm_campaign=episode_213 

The episode covers the arms race happening between major AI companies, the difference between using AI as a search engine versus a true work partner, and why fleet managers who refuse to engage are putting themselves at real risk. Josh breaks down practical advice for three distinct groups: those who haven't started yet, those who are dabbling, and power users ready to go deeper. He also shares how he personally uses AI to build custom learning curricula, run his company with better context, and collaborate on projects in ways that were impossible even a year ago.

This is a grounded, no-hype conversation about what AI actually looks like in practice for fleet professionals, and what every fleet leader should do about it right now.

Josh Turley — CEO, RTA: The Fleet Success Company

Josh Turley is the CEO of RTA: The Fleet Success Company. His passion is helping people work ON their fleets, rather than IN them. He is a little crazy about company culture and believes it is the most important thing a company can get right if they want to experience clarity, confidence, and peace of mind instead of chaos and stress. That belief is at the core of what drives the work at RTA, which currently helps nearly 700 public fleets succeed. Josh is the co-author of The Fleet Success Playbook, the host of The Fleet Success Show, and a frequent speaker at fleet events nationwide.

Marc Canton — VP of Fleet Strategy, RTA Fleet

Marc Canton brings more than 20 years of experience in university transportation, logistics, and government fleet management and consulting. He currently leads fleet strategy at RTA, where he is building the FMIS of the future. Marc takes a data-driven approach to optimizing fleet operations with a focus on high availability and efficiency, and is committed to advancing the industry through education and collaboration.

Looking to take the next step to fleet success? Start by requesting your free copy of The Fleet Success Playbook. Written by fleet professionals for fleet professionals, the Playbook breaks down the four key pillars of fleet success, and gives you the tools you need to build a truly great fleet. 

Request your free (yes, really, free!) copy here: https://rtafleet.com/resources/fleet-success-playbook?utm_source=simplecast&utm_medium=footer_notes&utm_campaign=episode_213

Control fleet chaos with RTA Fleet360, proven software designed by fleet managers for fleet managers: https://rtafleet.com/book-a-demo?utm_source=simplecast&utm_medium=footer_notes&utm_campaign=episode_213 

What does it actually take to deploy new technology in a public fleet before anyone else is doing it? In this episode of the Fleet Success Show, host Facundo Tassara sits down with Al Curtis, Fleet Director for Cobb County, Georgia, one of the most innovative public fleet operations in the country. Al has spent over 22 years at Cobb County building a culture of bold, thoughtful experimentation, from deploying Nissan Leafs in the fire marshal's office in 2016 to launching telematics across 800 county vehicles when most fleets had never heard the term.

Al and Facundo dig into what it really means to be an early adopter in public fleet. They cover how to get buy-in from the top and the shop floor at the same time, why your loudest technician might be your most valuable asset during a rollout, when to pull the plug on a failed deployment (like 50 propane-upfitted police cars), and why chasing startups is often smarter than waiting for the mainstream. They also get into how innovation connects to 100 Best Fleets recognition, how Cobb County is tackling the technician shortage by growing talent in-house, and what fleet managers need to hear about AI-driven tools changing how technicians learn and get certified.

This is a conversation for fleet leaders who want to build something they're proud of, not just manage what exists.

About the Guests:

Facundo Tassara is the host of the Fleet Success Show and a fleet industry veteran with experience spanning government fleet, tech startups, and EV infrastructure. He began his public fleet career in local government before joining Fermata Energy in 2017, where he worked at the forefront of vehicle-to-grid and bidirectional charging technology. Facundo brings a unique perspective to fleet conversations, part practitioner, part innovator, and has been a consistent voice for modernization and bold thinking in public fleet management.

Al Curtis is the Fleet Director for Cobb County Fleet Management in Marietta, Georgia, and one of the most respected names in public fleet innovation. He began his career as a motor sergeant in the U.S. military before moving through the private sector and into public service, where he has spent more than 22 years with Cobb County. Under his leadership, the department has earned 100 Best Fleets recognition and built a reputation for being willing to go where most government fleets won't, testing new technology early, sharing both wins and failures openly, and developing technicians from within the organization.

Looking to take the next step to fleet success? Start by requesting your free copy of The Fleet Success Playbook. Written by fleet professionals for fleet professionals, the Playbook breaks down the four key pillars of fleet success, and gives you the tools you need to build a truly great fleet. 

Request your free (yes, really, free!) copy here: https://rtafleet.com/resources/fleet-success-playbook?utm_source=simplecast&utm_medium=footer_notes&utm_campaign=episode_213

Control fleet chaos with RTA Fleet360, proven software designed by fleet managers for fleet managers: https://rtafleet.com/book-a-demo?utm_source=simplecast&utm_medium=footer_notes&utm_campaign=episode_213 

What does it actually take to break into a male-dominated industry, get passed over because of excuses, and still rise to manage a fleet of nearly 3,800 assets?

Shae Davies, Fleet Manager for the City of Aurora, Colorado, joins host Facundo Tassara for the debut episode of the Women in Fleet series on the Fleet Success Show. Shae has nearly 30 years in public fleet, starting as an apprentice mechanic with the City of Seattle and working her way into leadership through grit, skill, and a willingness to be the first.

In this episode, Shae and Facundo cover:

Whether you are a fleet manager, a fleet director, a tradesperson, or someone thinking about entering the industry, this conversation will challenge the way you think about fleet, leadership, and what the next generation of this workforce needs.

Subscribe for more episodes of the Fleet Success Show and the full Women in Fleet series.

Chapters: 

0:00 – Intro to Women in Fleet 

1:48 – Shae's background and 30 years in fleet 

3:19 – The fight with her dad that started it all 

5:17 – Getting hired and entering public fleet 

6:28 – From mechanic to leadership 

10:13 – Being passed over and having to be the first 

13:49 – Navigating bias and building resilience 

17:30 – Hot take: stop calling women "females" 

22:05 – Shae's photo in the US Capitol building 

25:37 – Managing 3,800 assets at the City of Aurora 

28:52 – Telling the executive story to drive capital investment 

32:17 – 230 underutilized vehicles and what the data shows 

33:46 – QR codes on fleet assets as community storytelling tools 

38:18 – The number one thing impacting fleet today 

41:33 – Advice for women thinking about entering fleet 

44:38 – Fleet as a business partner, not a department 

50:09 – The future of mechanic wages and the labor shortage 

55:33 – Closing thoughts and upcoming Women in Fleet guests

Connect with RTA Fleet: https://www.rtafleet.com Learn more about Fleet360: https://www.rtafleet.com/fleet360

#WomenInFleet #FleetManagement #FleetSuccessShow #PublicFleet #FleetManager #Trades #WomenInTrades #MunicipalFleet #FleetLeadership

Looking to take the next step to fleet success? Start by requesting your free copy of The Fleet Success Playbook. Written by fleet professionals for fleet professionals, the Playbook breaks down the four key pillars of fleet success, and gives you the tools you need to build a truly great fleet. 

Request your free (yes, really, free!) copy here: https://rtafleet.com/resources/fleet-success-playbook?utm_source=simplecast&utm_medium=footer_notes&utm_campaign=episode_213

Control fleet chaos with RTA Fleet360, proven software designed by fleet managers for fleet managers: https://rtafleet.com/book-a-demo?utm_source=simplecast&utm_medium=footer_notes&utm_campaign=episode_213