The Inclusion Think Tank

On this episode of the podcast, I welcome my guest Dr. Teresa Herrero-Taylor. Teresa is the Director of Special Services In Jackson New Jersey. During our conversation, we discuss the challenges and barriers of inclusion from a statewide perspective, and also how schools can support parents who believe that separate placement is better for their children who have disabilities.

Arthur: This is the Inclusion Think Tank podcast brought to you by New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education, NJCIE, where we talk about inclusive education, why it works, and how to make it happen.

On this episode of the podcast, I welcome my guest Dr. Teresa Herrero-Taylor. Teresa is the Director of Special Services In Jackson New Jersey. During our conversation, we discuss the challenges and barriers of inclusion from a statewide perspective, and also how schools can support parents who believe that separate placement is better for their children who have disabilities.

Arthur: I would like to welcome everyone back to another episode of the Inclusion Think Tank podcast brought to you by the New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education. I am your host, Arthur Aston, and I am back with a brand new episode with my guest today, Dr. Teresa Herrero-Taylor. Teresa, I'm very happy that you are joining me today.

We had a great pre-conversation before we started recording, so I'm really looking forward to our conversation today.

Teresa: Thank you for inviting me and I'm honored that I was selected to be interviewed.

Arthur: Yes, you're welcome. And to begin our conversation, can you share a little bit about yourself with our audience? Can you share with us who you are?

And also tell us how you became interested in the inclusive education world.

Teresa: Absolutely. I'm a lot of different things. Wife, I'm a mother of three individuals with disabilities who are now young adults. One is profoundly disabled, intellectually disabled, and autistic. The other two are what you call twice exceptional, so quite bright and gifted, but have their own share of disabilities themselves that they have to contend with.

I'm also a licensed psychologist. I am a board-certified behavior analyst. I was a school psychologist for many years. I'm now in the director of special services in Jackson. I do believe that helping individuals with disabilities is my calling. It's not a job for me. It's absolutely a passion. And it's something that, I was already in the field when I became a parent and I didn't feel like it was by accident.

I felt that I was probably mediocre before that and being a parent and actually living with disabilities, creating opportunities for them was what I was meant to do. So, filling into this role, a lot of people will say, Don't you want to be in another? No, I'm exactly where I was meant to be. That was meant to be a director of special services.

Teresa: I do subscribe to the philosophy that there shouldn't be limitations on individuals and that they can always do more. Right. And, one of the things I always told teachers is how do you know if you haven't tried? How do they know if they haven't tried that we shouldn’t

put limits and parameters on what they do and what they can do.

So and time and time again, students continue to surprise me, right? No one has a crystal ball to make those kind of predictions. And so it would really be it's just not the way I am. I'm an empowerment person. I believe in the ability to help people reach whatever lengths that they can and certainly want to and even perhaps even exceed those, because sometimes those are self-fulfilling prophecies or those low expectations sometimes get internalized.

So it is always about pushing forward and really empowering people to go as far as they can.

Arthur: Yes, I love what you said how do you know if you don't try and the limitations me myself, having a disability. And I just answered this question on one of my social media sites where someone asked, how can they be a better ally for people with disabilities?

And, I said by simply not making assumptions about their abilities

Teresa: Arthur, when my son was 16, I was at an IEP meeting. This is my profoundly challenged son. And I said I'd like you to teach him how to tie his shoes. And they all looked at me like, But he can’t tie his shoes, he’ll never tie his shoes.

And I said the same thing. How do you know if you've never tried? No one has ever taught him. They just say, have him use Velcro right? Why teach him? I said, but no one's ever even tried to teach him.

Teresa: Now, this is a child who can't read or write it. Can't even hold a pencil, and within one month, he was tying his shoes. So and that's kind of my point. It doesn't mean that everything, but unless you've tried, you don't know how far they can go or what they can do. Right. Keep surprise you all the time. Right. I mean, you certainly in your story, right, surprised people, too. And you exceeded what people initially thought.

So I think that has to be really a framework that people use overall for all of our students. Right. That we have to keep trying and,, and trying different methods to keep it learn the traditional method. I think he used or bright orange laces and there were some adaptations to it. But ultimately he learned to tie his shoelaces with regular laces.

Arthur: Mm-hmm.

Teresa: And that increases independence, right?

Arthur: Absolutely. Yeah. That reminds me of a story. I was out of the theater with friends, and I was using my crutches and the usher at the theater, our seats were upstairs, and the theater's old, so it didn't have an elevator. And the usher said, Oh, he can't. He can't climb those steps.

And my friend said, First of all, you don't know him, and if he can't climb those steps, let him be the one to say he can't climb the steps! You don't know him. She said, because I've known him a long time and I don't know if he can climb those steps, but if he wants to try, we'll get him up there.

We'll make it happen. So it's just really not making assumptions and always just trying and seeing what can be done, and, we'll be surprised.

Teresa: The capacity to grow. I mean, I think in my background, having started my education as an English language learner, being placed in all the little groups like a somehow that was telling me that I couldn’t, right? and then really took someone believing in me and saying, Oh, but I think you can.

And then to really push that standard higher that I then internalized and then rose to that level. So I think people have to really be mindful of how much we also perpetuate that type of setting the bar low, keeping the bar low. Are we really giving students opportunities to really go as far as they can or perhaps further, rising to the occasion?

So and that's what inclusive education is really about, isn't it?

Arthur: Yes.

Teresa: It kind of fits in with that. The philosophy and really the federal and state mandate. Also, it's not like we just make this up and just like it just because it's also what we're supposed to be doing. But there are a lot of ways that we help to push that forward.

You know, sometimes it's those implicit biases that we don't mean, but are there that sometimes affect the work and affect the mindset also in negative ways?

Arthur: Yes. Yeah. And speaking of the state and requirements and things like that, can you share with us some of the barriers from a statewide perspective to fostering inclusive practices?

Teresa: I'm going to tell you that in Jackson, really primary barrier that the state is created is financial.

We are an S-2 district. I don't know if you're familiar with what that means. We have faced very dramatic cuts in our budget every year, millions, which obviously means a loss of teachers, interventionists, and specialists to support students in general education. Large class sizes. So all of these things obviously don't make the work in general education, supporting students with disabilities or English language learners.

It makes it really strained. Original S-2 was created at a time when our society was different. It was a different time of education. There were different needs. This was all before COVID. And now we look at COVID and we have a lot more students with behavioral challenges, emotional challenges. Certainly, the stress levels of staff, I mean, all these different pieces come into the mix, which is making these cuts that much more dramatic and impactful on a district like Jackson.

We are not the only S-2 cut district, Arthur, just so you're aware there are other ones, but it was really done pre-everything sort of becoming worse educationally in terms of student needs coupled with increases in English language learners. So that from the state is a huge barrier. In addition to that, I would say just, change is hard.

Teresa: And I think change, especially post-COVID, is harder, right, because of all the challenges. I think parents also are feeling stress and there's a general mindset around inclusive education, too, that I think is always something that throughout the state and including Jackson, that we can have to continue to support a mindset that embraces inclusion and that could be with educators, it could be with parents across the board.

So those are certainly some of the barriers that Jackson specifically, but I think throughout the state in general that are challenges.

Arthur: Yes, and we’re kind of talking about this already, but are there rules or requirements that the state puts in place, that also make it difficult as it relates to inclusive education?

Teresa: I think the legal process, the way it's set up, makes it hard. I'm one when I believe something is right for the student, I want to go forward and fight for it because it's the right thing for the student. But when you go through a legal process, it's usually there's a lot of encouragement, is probably the best word. to settle, to settle, even if it's not the right thing for the student.

So that's hard, right? I'm a principal person. I want to do the right thing by kids. So settling for the sake of financial reasons as opposed to it's not the right thing is difficult. Right? I feel that's uncomfortable. So I think the way the legal process is set up is certainly not easy. The difficulty of providing services and accessing services in Gen-Ed, because of funding.

It does go hand-in-hand. That makes it hard. The state created that situation. And ultimately that's causing inequity in districts that have that differential in their state or state funding. Unfunded mandates, or only partially funded mandates of the state. That makes it hard. Because when that differentially impacts districts, that makes it that much more of a challenge to provide quality needed services for students, which is ultimately our goal.

The state is large. It has a lot of school districts, More than 600. I think with that, it makes it somehow, operationally, there are so many nuances across those districts that the blanket decision-making that sometimes happens is really differentially impacting certain districts in ways that are really inequitable for students.

Arthur: Yeah, that's a really great point to make that, you know, with so many districts you can't or it's it's difficult to apply one thing to all districts when so many different pieces apply for specific districts that is.

New Jersey looks small on the map, but we have a lot going on here. We have a lot of people.

Teresa: Yeah, a lot of people.

Arthur: A lot of townships and students and school districts

Teresa: And all separately trying the best that they can with the resources that they're given. And the resources are not the same.

Arthur: Right.

Teresa: So you talk about real differentials there. Equity, which is concerning. With all of us having the same goal of implementing the administrative code to the best of our ability, but certainly creates unique challenges, especially for a district like Jackson.

Arthur: Yes. Yeah. And then I would like to talk about the parents and the situation they have now you have students and then you have their parents.

And there are parents who strongly believe that separate placement is better for their children. How can we assist those parents in overcoming their reservations about this?

Teresa: Yeah, and I am a parent. So this is very interesting. I wear many hats and that's certainly another hat as being a parent of children with disabilities.

It is a tough process and there are different factors that sometimes impact parents and where they're at. Sometimes it's an understanding of their own child's needs or perhaps an acceptance of their child's needs. Sometimes that could be an impact. I do think it really starts with case managers and districts really actively listening to families about what are your concerns, not just dismissing them or disregarding them.

What is it that you're concerned about? Come to the table. They're active members of the IEP team. They have a voice. They're supposed to have a voice. Are we listening to them? What is it that they fear about perhaps more inclusion, more access to peers? What is it they feel that's better about these other placements?

Right. And a lot of it it's based on these perceptions, misconceptions. I always say the public schools suffer from a branding public relations weakness, that it just gets assumed that in district or public is worse. Unfortunately, I've had, or fortunately, I had the opportunities C many out of placements public schools are comparable, if not superior to out-of-district placements, the great majority of the time.

To add to that we have non-disabled peers. This is their community, this is where they live. These are the children that live in their neighborhoods. These are their potential friends, their potential future colleagues. This is where it's at in terms of being part of your community. And you can't get that in an out-of-district placement. They're usually far away, half an hour, 45 minutes.

Teresa: You’re going to make friendships in different towns. Jackson is a big place to travel, even just to go through. As you know, you lived here, if you hadn't had to travel to other towns to go connect with people, it's just really limiting. The beauty of having students in the district being with their peers, and being part of the fabric of the school.

Part of it is beautiful. Beautiful for students who don't have disabilities and beautiful for the students who do, at both levels, everyone grows and is a better place because of it. You can't get that at an out-of-district placement. That part is just lost. Not available.

In-district programs are longer. We are full day. Out-of-district placements are usually shorter, usually about 5 hours, five and a half hours, shorter school day. So on so many levels. And yet the requests come that somehow that that must be better. And that's really unfortunate. And most parents aren't aware they're not really comparing programs or understanding the differences. Ironically, Arthur, a lot of our special education teachers, many have come from out-of-district placements in the district.

So, we have people who have all that specialized knowledge they are here, but it just gets assumed somehow that this outer part is that our district is better. So actively listening, coming to understand what parents’ concerns and fears are, what the student needs are in the eyes of the parents addressing those, working collaboratively to understand how those can best be met, really offering those opportunities. It’s a process of gaining trust, really, of families that, this is a good place to be and your child is going to do well here. Really is striving to ensure high-quality programing for students.

Teresa: You can't just, say we're great and then not be great. Right? I mean, you have to actually, the IEP implementation has to be as promised, right? You have to do what you're supposed to do when you're going to do it and do it at a level of quality that certainly students make progress and progress that's meaningful.

So I think all of those have been strategies I've always used from when I was a supervisor of Special Ed or now as a director and even as a case manager. I think really this community piece and the value of that I think is sometimes undervalued. And when people see it in action, it just brings tears to my eyes and it is parents and sometimes it's staff.

It's really moving everyone forward to see how beautiful that could be. There's kids I brought in who people thought, Well, I'm not sure if they belong here. And in my eyes, all students belong here. They all belong here. They're all part of our community. There's no one. The only time is we just can't meet the need. Right? That would be the one exception.

But my question is always, why not? And we have to kind of go through and make sure that we are not just quickly saying we can't, but that we truly can't. Right. Which is honestly very rare in my eyes. But really kind of challenging those underlying assumptions, as you say, of why not?

Why can't we do that? And sometimes perhaps we want to say, they are too disabled, they can’t be there.

Teresa: Why not? I asked them that too. Why not? Well, he needs a nurse. We can get a nurse. Well, the hallway.the hallways are ADA-compliant, We have begun to see more students with visual impairments. The same type of thing. Why not? You don't have… We do have services. We do have we have those approaches.

We have the Commission for the blind. We have everything your child needs, and they're here. They're in their community. They're with their peers. Right? So it is a process. I think the district certainly you have to sometimes build those supports and services and programming sometimes Arthur, there’s actually shortages in certain specializations for support services that are sometimes a challenge, finding the right people.

Can we find the right people to support the needs in-district? But I try to be ahead of that and having people kind of on the ready who are ready to provide those services. So anyone who moves in that I have contacts or vendors approved ready to go to support the needs of anyone who might like that or who's here already.

Teresa: So the challenges are not insurmountable. I welcome parental collaboration and I welcome parents talking to each other. So sometimes some districts fear that the conversations I love the conversations. I'm a parent too. Parents learn from each other. Parents support each other. Being a parent of children with disabilities can be very isolating, especially the more disabled they are because they tend not to be able to venture out as much into the community or they think they can't.

So offering each other resources and support knowledge of events and different opportunities is is another beautiful thing around being a family with disabilities that when you can connect with others and feeling like you belong to your school, is that just expanding that community.

Arthur: Yeah, it's the collaboration and conversation so important.

Teresa: And I think honesty, like I said, anything I'm telling you, I've said in meetings, well, why not or what is it that you feel or that's actually not true or,, the short days are actually shorter.

Like everything I'm telling you, I have talked to parents about. Let’s have a conversation about this. What is it that you feel? What do you feel is missing? What do you feel that… Why do you think that's going to be better? And, I think so too having a lot of behaviorists on staff, which has been very helpful.

Teresa: We have staff to help support kids do well. Right. That's part of our main approach. You know, we do have a lot of specialization within the district. I myself have a lot of specialization with. Then I brought in a lot of specialization for my behavioral team, right. So that we can better meet the needs of kids when they have severe problem behavior.

And then more to that end, I've also left it open for other districts to vicariously observe our consultant, come in and observe and learn from the strategies that we're doing that perhaps they're not doing. It's a partnership like I'm doing it. Can you learn from what we're doing because we're open to you learning from us? I have an open welcome.

We do an alternative behavioral approach called PFA SBT for kids with severe problem behavior. We have a consultant from FTF which is in Boston and we invite District. We have other districts come and watch the consultations. We you know, I'm happy to have other people learn vicariously from us. We are here to support other districts. We field phone calls all the time.

There are 600 districts, but we're one state and we not come together for the betterment of all of our students. So I do think, like Cross County collaboration also would be really powerful. Sharing resources, building PLCs, professional learning communities across districts.

We're still one state. We can still support each other. We could all move the needle forward together and help all of our students. Right. Because independent also costs a lot of money, right? Each state has to pay for their own consult on their own. Okay. Can we not do some things like jointly and then kind of all help each other to go forward?

We don't all have to reinvent the wheel. Right. And I think the whole state, all of our students would go farther that way. So that's just a personal philosophy I have around it. I do try to bring districts together because I think it's just good practice, but I think it just helps everyone. It helps all of our students. It helps all of our districts.

Arthur: Absolutely.

Teresa: And there are no sides. That's the whole thing. It's not like districts against families.

Arthur: Right

Teresa: We're all like I consider myself an advocate for kids, right? There's no side to that. That's like right down the middle, Right? We're all on the same team. Let's all move that team together.

Right? It's not us and them.

Arthur: Yeah, like you said, all on the same team, trying to move the needle in the right direction, and it works better together isn’t that how it goes?

Teresa: Well, there we go. That's the NJCIE slogan better together. I love it.

Arthur: So we can, it’s so true, though, not keeping the secrets from each other, sharing with each other. And like you said, partnering and collaborating with each other, that all because we all have that one same goal, that one mission of making it better for the students and, when when we all work together, it can really start seeing some great change.

Teresa: absolutely.

Arthur: Yeah. So thank you. Thank you so much for this conversation. It was really great to meet you and talk with you and, I definitely look forward to our paths crossing again in the future.

Teresa: Likewise. It was an enjoyable conversation about one of my favorite topics.

Arthur: Yes, Yes. And I love… I say it to a lot of the guests, I can tell, even though we're meeting on Zoom, their passion for this and that they truly believe in it. And that's what I enjoy about these conversations of meeting like-minded people who are so passionate about a topic like inclusive education and their desire to see the change and to make the change and be a part of it.

And so it's it's really great to have this conversation with you. So thank you.

Teresa: Well, thank you for inviting me. And it was an honor and absolutely a pleasure. So best of luck to you, Arthur.

Arthur: Thank you so much and enjoy your day.

Teresa: Thank you.

Arthur: Thank, you too.

Arthur: Arthur: We thank you for listening to this episode of the Inclusion Think Tank Podcast. This podcast is brought to you by New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education, NJCIE. Be sure to subscribe on YouTube, Spotify, or Apple Podcasts. And don’t forget to follow us on social media, @NJCIE. Until next time.

On this episode, I welcome my guest Deirdre Azzopardi. Deirdre is an Occupational Therapist, and during our conversation, we discuss how mindfulness and social-emotional learning can break down the barriers to create a more inclusive environment for all students.

Arthur: This is the inclusion Think Tank podcast brought you by New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education, NJCIE, where we talk about inclusive education, why it works, and how to make it happen.

On this episode, I welcome my guest Deirdre Azzopardi. Deirdre is an Occupational Therapist, and during our conversation, we discuss how mindfulness and social-emotional learning can break down the barriers to create a more inclusive environment for all students.

Arthur: I would like to welcome everyone back to another episode of the Inclusion Think Tank Podcast brought to you by the New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education. I am your host, Arthur Aston, and I am happy to welcome my guest today, Deirdre Azzopardi to the podcast. Thank you for joining me today. I am happy to have you on as a guest.

Deirdre: Awesome. I'm very happy to be here.

Arthur: Yes. So to start our conversation, can you share a little bit about yourself with us and tell us who is Deirdre and how did you become interested in the world of inclusive education?

Deirdre: So I am an occupational therapist now for 30 years and also have a son who received special services from 18 months to 18 years old, so have been on both sides of the IEP table.

And through that time I came to inclusion because I started to notice that my own ideas that somebody needed to be sort of ready before they got into a classroom that I needed to help them to catch up, whatever that meant when somebody kind of squeaked by and was in the classroom already, like I had to kind of open my eyes and, started to notice like kids at a whole lot better than I expected.

And that perhaps, I didn't know everything. And so as my own journey through like a spiritual journey, yoga, I became a yoga teacher through a lot of my own practices. I realized that I know less than I thought and that I'm more comfortable knowing less, which is good, and that, perhaps I was being a gatekeeper myself.

Deirdre: And when I started to really see inclusion as really a right, a civil right, it was kind of hard to turn back from it. So, I have a lot of heated discussions about it, but I believe inclusion is a civil right.

Deirdre: One of the definitions of OT that I've always loved and part of like the yoga journey that the yoga journey it is about removing all of the layers that we have accumulated over our life. The not enough-ness, the societal messages. All of the stuff that we accumulate, the traumas that, the traumas from our ancestors is to kind of find the essential you underneath all of it.

Right? And so I love that. And I feel that. And one of the definitions of O.T. that I resonate with is that we're supposed to be barrier removers. We're supposed to look at the environment and say, how can we help this individual become the person that they want to be the best version of themselves by helping to remove barriers?

Deirdre: And I think that that's amazing, except that sometimes we become the people that decide who the best version of that person is without their own voice. We decide what we think they should be, especially young children. And then sometimes we're the barrier. When we look at the environment as the environment that we're supposed to help to make environments better for kids, sometimes we're the actual gatekeeper and the people that are the barrier, by our own thoughts and about a child, about their belonging or about where they are.

So, yeah, it's really a lot of this work is really about a deep dive into yourself and your own ideas.

Arthur: Yes. And you've already started talking about this a little bit. You mentioned that you're an occupational therapist and you focus on mindfulness and social-emotional learning. Can you talk a little bit about what mindfulness and social-emotional learning are and how they can add a benefit to an inclusive education setting?

Deirdre: Sure. So social-emotional learning is kind of all the rage, right where we look at school systems we look in especially, I think, in disability spaces, right? How someone manages their emotions, how they feel about themselves, how they relate to others. And how all of that plays out in society is like, beyond important because without sort of that basis, mental health, someone can't learn, right?

You can't learn unless we have that basis of mental health. And there's such a crisis in our country across the world, really, of children who are not feeling so good about themselves or and so I think really all hands on deck. A lot of OT’s have been known to just be like these people who help with things like handwriting, which I personally don't care about very much.

It's very hard for me to care about. I have to like really I really have to get excited about it because I don't think that that's the barrier normally for kids not being able to access education. There are so many more layers to that. So in OT school we actually learn a lot about mental health as well as physical health, but we've kept them very separate.

But, the actual connection between the mind and the body and the spirit which very few professions do both, in school. we could be the experts on that. So that's what I think we could bring to the school system. But I think we all get stuck in our own little silos.

Deirdre: Arthur, you have a disability, a physical disability. There's no way that physical disability hasn't impacted how you felt about yourself on an emotional level. There is no way, right? It's your body and your body is a reflection of you. And so you've, I'm sure, had to work through a lot of feelings about that. I'm not putting you on the spot, but I'm just using you as an example.

So, all of us are impacted by the entirety of ourselves. And so mindfulness is really about taking time to really look into your heart, right? Instead of just moving from one thing to the next thing in the next thing. And especially in schools, people are moving at the speed of light and not taking time to realize, you know, I'm saying that we're all on this hamster wheel, right?

There are teachers who have five-minute schedules. I am not joking. Five-minute schedules

Arthur: Oh, yeah, you're absolutely right about having my physical disability. And I've had it all my life. There have been times where it, you know, definitely did affect my, you know, my mental health and whether it was being left out of things that that my friends could do.

I always tell people that it wasn't the being left out of sports or football or things like that. That didn't bother me because that never looked fun to me. Like getting hit, that never looked like fun to me, but just doing things like on the playground and not being able to climb up, or use the monkey bars, as they called them.

Not being able to do those kinds of things. The daredevil types of things that my friends would do, just little things like that or just more important or bigger things where my body just hurts sometimes so bad, where I just really want to stay in bed all day like that can be very draining on the physical and the mental health for me.

Arthur: So I definitely agree with you in that, we are like our total, you know, the total parts of everything of our life. That's so true. And I majored in psychology. So I really am connected with the mind and the body parts of, you know, being connected and how how they all work together.

Deirdre: I did that, too. So I got my undergraduate was in O.T., like back in the day. You could do that. And then my master's was in psychology, so I think I was or my master’s informed a lot of my work. And then I went back and I got my doctorate, and my doctorate was on using exercise as a tool for autistic kids and cognitive behavioral techniques.

So really like how we spoke to ourselves. And one of the reasons that I wanted to do that is because I always related myself to my work. Not always, but over time I realized how much I impact what I'm doing. And it was through my own exercise journey because what happened was I realized the only reason I exercise was to feel good.

I never could do it just because, like the world told me, I should, because I should be skinnier and all that other stuff that I never could sustain it for that reason. It was only when movement made me feel good that I was able to sustain it. And I was like, You know what? If that makes me feel good?

Deirdre: I bet it could help some of my students who are feeling super anxious. You know, a lot of kids, a lot of kids with disabilities also struggle so greatly from anxiety. So I want to help bridge that gap where a kid can start to understand, like, what movements make me feel good.

So it isn't only about exercise as a “should”, because the “should” part, I think, is one of the reasons that like 50% of people don't exercise because society has made it as should. So just like one of my biggest goals is to help people to find something in their body that feels really good. So they look forward to it.

It makes them feel good because that body awareness that impacts anxiety levels and health and all of those other things. So that really becomes sort of an obsession for me, like how can I help this kid to feel good in their bodies, through whatever means?

Arthur: I don't know what it was about, what you just said about the should part that was I was like, wow!

Deirdre: Well, I think that there's been plenty of studies on that, that when we make things a ‘should’, there is a part of us that says, screw you, I don’t want to do it. You just made it a should, I don't want to do it.

There's that part of us that does that and it's all unconscious, in our minds. Like think about foods. We all know we should be eating broccoli and not Doritos. Right? Right. There's like, there's no misunderstanding of that. Right. But we don't really do things based on this super conscious thing, like we should do the things that are right for us.

We tend to do things that make us feel good and treat us feel really good. Right? The marketers have figured out a way to make Doritos feel better than broccoli.

Arthur: Yeah, it's natural. As you said, it's unconscious, like a rebellion kind of thing. Like, okay, yeah, I should do it, okay. I'm not going to do it.

Deirdre: Exactly. Exactly. So I love I love sharing yoga with kids and mindfulness because the truth is because of the way the culture is right now and because of, video games and all, you know, they've everyone has figured out how to make kids feel like, you know, get really addicted to like these dopamine heads from video games and, you know, poor food choices and all this other stuff.

It's like very easy to get kids addicted to this stuff. So I think excitement has become like just being like hyper-stimulated and excited has become, confabulation with feeling good. So like that high level. But the truth is, if you see a kid like drop some of that and just really relax, you can see in their body they feel really good about that.

So that does feel really good. And so if you can get kids young enough to sort of and not every kid. And so when I teach it, I, just talk about how I feel in my own body, Like I constantly let people know about it so that they can come up with their own conclusions. I don't say to kids, you should feel whatever way you know your feelings or your own feelings, but you will see kids kind of like drop the mask, drop the armor, and it's really exciting to see.

Arthur: Yes. I am loving this conversation because you're leading all into our next questions.

Deirdre: How exciting.

Arthur: Which is great. So in preparing for all of my conversations for the podcast, I tried to find other conversations that the guests have had on other podcasts or articles they may have written or participated in.

So I heard you speak about Stop and Notice. And I would like for you to share what that is about, and how that can be important and the classroom setting.

Deirdre: So I lead a lot of professional development. And one of the things I kind of give out to everybody is a stop sign.

And using stop, it’s an acronym. I forget when you use each letter. I don't know. It's not coming to me. Anyway, so S is for stop. Just literally stop. Pause. We don't take many pauses in life, Take a pause. T is for take a breath. When we take a breath, a conscious breath, we kind of clear space a little bit to actually notice.

So O is for observe, like observe how you're feeling because so many kids don't know how they feel, So many adults don't know how they feel, and then P is to proceed with kindness. So like, always choose the kind choice. And a lot of it's a choice for ourselves, you know, a kind thought for ourselves, not just kindness towards others.

Deirdre: It’s just a nice one because you can see it out in the world, stop signs. You can just put it up on your wall to notice when you're nervous system is kind of off-kilter because sometimes we can get really locked into our own stuff. And when we do this and when we do this consciously, it when we do it out loud, I think we do it out loud with kids.

What I do a lot with kids is especially as I work with really our preschoolers, and I just feel like these messages, this is like in preschool. I think people don't understand enough about early childhood education that the voices that these kids here are, the internalized voices they will hear for the rest of their lives. So I'm always like, it's in real-time.

It's us where we are the voice right now. So if, I'm having a really rough day, right, and I come into a space and I'm like, discombobulated and I'm pissed off about something and whatever and say I'm about to teach a yoga class and the whole class breathes together and like, I have this moment of clarity, like, oh, and my whole nervous system reacts to that.

And I say it out loud. The kids call me Mrs. A. Mrs. A came, I was a disaster. I was late and my dog threw up and, all these things happened and I just wanted to get through this class. But when everybody stopped and took this breath together like you helped me so much.

I feel so much better. Thanks. Thanks so much, because I think the kids don't have enough messages that it's okay to stop and notice how they feel. And most of the messages of society is if you're crying, just get over it. Let's move on. A lot of messages are like, we're going to tell you how to feel.

Kid's emotions are inconvenient.

Arthur: Oh, wow.

Deirdre: Right. They are. And that and we have to be honest about that so that a lot of these like self-regulation tools I kind of laugh about because we put these things up on walls. I don't want to pick on the zones, but the zones is one of them.

Like there's the green and the red and whatever. And like, what zone are you in? How do you change it? All these things, all these steps. And I'm like, how many adults are doing that? How many adults are doing that? Like how many adults, when they're really annoyed, are stopping like, Oh, I'm really annoyed. I really shouldn't act like this or like, I've just hurt someone else's feelings.

Maybe I should stop, take a breath. Like they're not going through all of those steps. But we expect very small kids to do it. So unless we are one, sometimes when we're not in that heightened state, when we're like in a more middle ground at least where we can access those parts of our brain that are our higher self.

Deirdre: We should talk about it in front of kids. So kids are like, Oh, that's the steps in real-time. I'm doing it. I'm doing those steps and I've done it ten times wrong and I'm letting you know how I did it incorrectly. And that's okay too. That's just called being human. But expecting kids to do it is like, what? Like small children need us to do it.

They need us to be, to be able to regulate with them. They need us to, be able to access those parts of our brain. But that's a lot of practice. That's a lot of practice on adults have to practice it.

Arthur: Mhm. And as you said, the voices that they will hear for the rest of their lives is when they are that young and to have a physical example of you doing that, the stop for example, it's like okay, it makes it okay because it's like oh if my teacher did it, then you know, it makes it okay.

Yeah, it's not a big deal.

Deirdre: Exactly. And when you, can get a teacher to sort of I say get like as if I'm like making them. But if some, if a teacher really sort of buys in, I've had students like do these really awesome things like students tell they're like little four year olds tell their parents, like, you look really stressed, Mom, why don't you take a breath?

You might feel better, Like, drop the mic. That's all I need. My life's work complete, and all of this relates to inclusion. You know why? Because so many kids are not included because of behavioral challenges. That is one of the big walls. You know, when a kid has a behavioral challenge, emotional challenges like, you know, everyone feels very, very much that they don't belong.

That’s one that is easy for people to sort of feel like, well, they definitely don't belong you know? So all of us need to help kids to be able to regulate their emotions so that they don't become the other. And kids get scared of kids who can't regulate their emotions, That becomes frightening to them.

Deirdre: They might be able to accept an Arthur in a wheelchair. Hmm. They might be able to do that. But it's very hard for them to accept the kid that's hitting the teacher.

Arthur: Hmm. Wow. Yeah, That's a very good point. It's a very good point. Wow.

All right. So I have one more question for you before we wrap up this discussion today. And that is, can you tell us about the New Jersey inclusive education Technical Assistance Project and the grant that your district received and what you're doing in your district to make some change?

Deirdre: So we have been involved with that. It's really so there was a smaller grant last year, which was the related service grant. So since I'm part of related service, it was about moving from calling kids into our little therapy rooms and performing magic. Now we're pushing much more into the classroom, which I had been doing for quite a while.

But I think that the professional development kind of helped us to all figure out better ways to make it work in terms of scheduling. So a lot of this is about logistics. Logistics is a big issue in inclusion. It's just about like who, what, where, how do we use the resources we have, what are the resources that we need?

A lot of that is, you know, some of the barriers to inclusion. It's definitely been doing much more groups. And I think that therapists, you know, doing more groups, it helps tremendously with inclusion and I think even therapists doing whole class groups helps with inclusion because it's like, taking some stuff off the teacher. I think teachers are just inundated and stressed.

And so even if they would like to include a student, sometimes they feel like they don't even know where to start and they don't feel supported. And it's just so anxiety provoking. Everyone doing the same thing makes life a lot easier. You know, a lot of there's a lot of talk about compliance-based, kind of against compliance-based things like, that we shouldn't be doing things that are leading just towards kids being compliant, except when you teach a class.

And I think that's why therapists and, you know, administrators, like one of my biggest things that I would love in the world is if all administrators had to do one day of one day a month of a subbing, one day, month of subbing because it's very easy to tell people how to do inclusion. It is very easy to tell people how to take data and all this other stuff.

But it's another thing to actually teach a class where somebody is not being compliant and you're trying to teach the class. So I think when therapists or anybody kind of gets out of their own little place and actually tries to do it, you start to really see the difficulty and then come from a much better place of learning how to come up with the solutions to those problems.

Deirdre: You know what I mean? Because, you're kind of walking the walk instead of just talking the talk. So that's sort of what we started doing last year and now we're doing even more. We have among the leadership group. So there's a bunch of us who get together once a month. Now it's mostly professional development at this point about how we can increase our numbers, our own blind spots.

We're kind of self-evaluating. So that's where we're at right now.

Arthur: Wow, it's really great with the grants that the different districts get and the work that they can do to continue the change, I should say, of making schools more inclusive because it really does benefit everybody in the classroom and the district that really helps.

Deirdre: It’s the only way to an equitable world, we get to know each other like we have to get to know each other. So I think if kids in a gen-ed classroom and just literally don't know, say kids in other classrooms, they can only be scared, right?

I mean, all isms is related on is related to people not knowing each other. When people get to know each other, it's a whole different world. It's like I don't have to be afraid of someone if I get to know them. Then I start to realize all the places that we're the same and we're not the same.

We all have differences, and differences should be celebrated and understood and accommodated for. But there's also so much, we all have the same needs. We all want to connect. We all want to be appreciated. We all want to feel autonomous. We all want to feel like we matter. And, there's no kid that doesn't want that.

So we have to figure out ways to make sure that everybody does matter.

Arthur: Yes, I agree. I mean. Well, I had to sell the. Deirdre, thank you so much for this conversation, and, it's your day off today. So I appreciate you taking the time to join me for this conversation. I really appreciate it talking with you and just getting to know of the work that you're doing and the change that you are helping to create and the students you are, you know, have the privilege of working with and just, you know, so thank you again for your time and I appreciate this conversation.

Deirdre: Arthur, I appreciate you. And I love that you said the privilege of working with because believe me, it is a privilege to be in the lives of kids who the path is harder for. So definitely a privilege because of that.

Arthur: Yes. So I will be in touch with you since you gave me a good book recommendation. So I definitely will be following up with you about that. Awesome. Yes. So do you take care and enjoy the rest of your day.

Deirdre: Thanks, Arthur.

Arthur: Thank you.

Arthur: We thank you for listening to this episode of the Inclusion Think Tank Podcast. This podcast is brought to you by New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education, NJCIE. Be sure to subscribe on YouTube, Spotify, or Apple Podcasts. And don’t forget to follow us on social media, @NJCIE. Until next time.

MaryAnn Joseph joins me on this episode of the Inclusion Think Tank Podcast.. MaryAnn is a National Board Certified teacher, and is a teacher-leader as a current college professor and a former special education consultant with the New Jersey Department of Education. During our conversation, we discuss some important characteristics of what makes someone a leader, and the three essential leadership components of inclusive education

Arthur: This is the inclusion think tank podcast Brought to you by New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education NJCIE. Where we talk about inclusive education, why it works, and how to make it happen.

On today’s episode, I welcome my guest, MaryAnn Joseph. MaryAnn is a National Board, Certified teacher, who has spent more than 40 years in the classroom throughout the nation, in both special education and general education settings. She is a teacher-leader as a current college professor and a former special education consultant with the New Jersey Department of Education.

During our conversation, we discuss some important characteristics of what makes someone a leader, and the three essential leadership components of inclusive education.

Arthur: I would like to welcome everyone back to another episode of the Inclusion Think Tank podcast brought to you by New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education. I am your host, Arthur Aston, and I am very happy to welcome my guest on the show today, MaryAnn Joseph.

MaryAnn, thank you so much for joining me today. I'm glad to speak with you again and to have you on as a guest today.

MaryAnn: My pleasure. Arthur, it's good to talk with you.

Arthur: Yes. So I start off every episode by asking a form of this question which is to ask my guest to introduce themselves. So can you share a little bit about your story and how you became interested in the world of inclusive education?

MaryAnn: So my story goes way back, Arthur. There are over 40 years of experience that I have clocked in this area of education, leaving high school in the seventies to pursue a degree in special education at Southern Connecticut State at that time, College, now a university. I was always interested in teaching, but I wondered what it would be like to teach kids with disabilities and what would that job look like.

And so I spent time in education preparing to teach. And as I did that, I realized that I was getting to know a lot about disabilities. In the seventies, we were all about labeling kids. Kids were kids with cognitive disabilities. Kids were kids with physical disabilities. We just labeled lots of things in regard to what kids might need or what kids had gaps in.

And I started doing that, being able to see different kinds of kids and worked with a lot of different kinds of kids at the quality Center in New Haven, in schools in New Haven. But I started wondering what I was going to do with them once I figured out what was wrong with them or what was right with them.

So I went over to the Department of Elementary Education and I said, Hey, I'm a student in the Special Education Department, and I take some classes in elementary ed, and believe it or not, that was not a common thing to happen in the seventies. They said, Oh, no, you get your classes in special ed. That's another building down on the other side of campus.

MaryAnn: After a lot of conversation and adding additional classes to my five-class load, to figure out not just what disabilities meant or what kids needed in terms of their gaps, but what they might learn.

That would be the education with everybody else who was learning mostly areas of reading and math, but I did that so that I could know as a teacher what to plan for, what to teach those kids in rooms that weren't in the same room as kids without disabilities.

That's where we were in the seventies, but that's where my first questions began.

Arthur: Wow. That's really great to hear that you were, interested right away when you were, taking college courses and just really interested in seeing how you can help those students with disabilities just to learn like everybody else and to even though they were in separate classrooms back then, and, you saw the need to, make that happen and to help them out.

I like what you said to find out what was right and what they could do and just really focus on that and make it happen. I love hearing the beginnings of people's journey into the world of inclusive education and to just seeing how they got to where they are.

And as you said, that's over 40 years ago, it’s just really, really cool.

MaryAnn: Well, thanks. Thanks. It was just a good, honest quest. Yes. To try and make classrooms the best they could for kids with disabilities.

Arthur: Yeah. So my next question is, how would you define inclusive education? What does inclusive education mean to you?

MaryAnn: Well, I think the first word that comes to mind is difficult. I think inclusive education is difficult. My role right now as a consultant and I work with school districts to try to include kids with disabilities, to try to build inclusive programming. I have to tell you it's not easy. It takes boldness, it takes patience, it takes lots of different pieces. And so I think it's hard to do or have inclusive education. That's the first word that comes to mind.

The second word that comes to mind is belonging. We want everybody to belong. We talk about these communities that we have as schools. We talk about schools as families, in fact, there is a school that in South Jersey has a big banner that you walk in that says, we are a family.

That's what schools are building these days, But we want it in an authentic way, not in a mascot way, not in an oh, it's so nice to take care of this person who looks different way, but a real true, authenticity. So words that are key to me when I think about inclusion is that it's difficult, is that it's about belonging, and is that it's about authenticity. Those three things are important.

Arthur: I love the authenticity part. That is, so true. It's not just we’re doing it because it's the thing that that's in right now. The cool thing to do, to really be authentic about it and to really, you know, just be true to what it is and really bring a sense, like you said, a sense of family, a sense of belonging and just true inclusion. That’s really great. I love that you mentioned the banner that hangs at the school.

MaryAnn: Yeah, it's great that I just love that banner. It's a great banner.

Arthur: Yeah, that really helps set the tone for, when you go in there and you see it, I'm sure it really helps set the tone for what that community means.

And that's I think the other thing about this community and, like I said, to go along with the belonging, it builds a sense of community and togetherness for everybody.

MaryAnn: Well,you make me wonder, you know, people will be listening to this podcast and thinking, what's my next step? What can I do?

Again, I work with a lot of schools like call School that a lot of people. And one of the things that has started to impress me is the way that people answer their phones, not the part that says we have currently changed our extensions, please listen carefully to the following absence. That part always cracks me up because it seems like everybody is changing their options.

But the thing that really gets me is we'll open up to a school district that will say ‘where all children read,’ ‘where all children can learn.’ Committed to quality and improving learning for all students. These kinds of statements may sound cliche, but they really set a tone. So we get introduced to a district in that first phone message or the first way that we are welcomed into their family or into their community.

So it is true, there are a lot of signs you can buy and Etsy is making a lot of money on things that tell us what inclusion might look like. But the truth is, in order to live it, we have to get it into our practice. So even the way that we answer our phones, the way that we sign our emails becomes a way that we can spread this mission. The importance of being inclusive.

Arthur: That is so very true. And I love what you said about the last part of signing your emails, the little quotes that people have and at the end of their signatures, like those are really, you know, you might think people don't pay attention to it, but a lot of people do.

And as you said, when you make a phone call someplace, how they start that conversation off with the voicemail. That is really, really true. And I think for me, I would say it's, you know, kind of just because it happens, I guess so often, as you said, it might sound cliche, some of them, because you hear those phrases often and all the time, but it really does.

it really does make a difference in how you are set, sets the tone for, you know, for of that experience with that school or that area, wherever you may be calling.

MaryAnn everything has to be complicated. We can make small steps in our personal patterns that can really influence in a big way.

Arthur: So this season of our podcast, we are focusing on school leadership and the role that those in leadership positions can play in creating an inclusive environment in the school. How can you share with us some important characteristics of what makes someone a leader?

MaryAnn: There's a great book out that I want to reference and I realize everybody's auditory as they listen to this, but this book is an easy title to remember. It's called Reimagining Special Education. I'll say it again, Reimagining Special Education, and it's written by two women; Jenna Rufo and Julie Causton. So Rufo and Causation have generated a great conversation around reimagining special education, and as I read through this book and I've read through it a few times, my puppy's a little dog-eared at this point.

It reminded me of the importance of the role of a leader. We are faced here in New Jersey with a mandatory responsibility. It's not something that we can choose to do or not do these days. Jersey's ranking as a state in the national rankings regarding inclusion was a sobering last in terms of 50, not 50, but 52 territories and states in the United States.

MaryAnn: Leaders in schools today face this data face this stark reality in a way that calls us to action. We have to do something about this. So we talk about leaders and inclusion here. We don't have a choice. And what we need to reimagine special education in terms of 21st century learning, in terms of the civil rights that students have to be in classrooms that are inclusive, where they are genuinely included as a part of that family and belong in that family.

So leaders, we just need to be aware of this huge responsibility laid before us that things need to change and change in New Jersey toward inclusion.

MaryAnn: So what makes a leader with that kind of stark reality facing us? Leaders have to have clear expectations, really define and understand what they are looking for in their schools so that they can build environments that are indeed inclusive.

Leaders have to be able to provide feedback that dedicates all to the mission, not just one or person, but really reads within an authority that says We are on this journey together, and that feedback that they provide in the hallway is part of a teacher observation at a board meeting has to be clearly closer to this important task of being inclusive in New Jersey, schools.

Leaders also have to believe that change can happen. Believe that they are part of that change. And finally, change-makers to make that work so that they can see and celebrate the change. Being a leader means knowing that there is work to be done and rolling your sleeves up and getting to the work so that we can make a difference.

Students are that important and students deserve the education that we offer to everyone as a civil right.

Arthur: That is that's great. I love the believe. Like they have to believe and feedback to. I think that is a really, really great thing to mention.

MaryAnn: The message there Arthur is not to be passive. You can't put a statement forward and say this is what we believe and then not live it every day. And again, the living it every day from the small things we do and the things we do. It's in the way we hire, it's in the way we organize our schools, it's in the way we're staff, it's in the way we build classrooms. It's a material we buy in all of those little pieces, but it's also in the way we say hello and good job in the hallway.

So leaders feedback is what keeps the wheels rolling toward the vision of that leader has. Otherwise, everybody just passively puts a checkmark next to something that they theoretically believe, but don’t see in action.

Arthur: It starts at the top, so for the leaders of the school districts to really believe in what they are, you know what they're putting out there, I think it's you know, it's really important to making everyone else come along and join that journey of making an inclusive environment in the school. I wanted to make sure that we touched on that and, you know, and to really share that information.

Arthur: My last question for you is again, for following along with the previous question about leadership, what would you say are three essential leadership components of inclusive education?

MaryAnn: Yeah, let's talk about that a little bit. I've had the pleasure of working with some districts in areas of reform and change. I give them credit for being ready for change, but in each of these areas, the first characteristic that just jumps off a page is that leaders are bold. Leaders are bold.

So we talk about leaders like in Haddonfield, New Jersey, Carmen Henderson, who boldly drew a plan to change the organizational style of programming in the district. This did not come without questions, without maybe some critical eye, but then boldness cut through because she was clearly dedicated to her mission.

Looking at districts like Cherry Hill, huge, twelfth largest in the entire state again, the bold of the director to be able to really know that they saw what could be better, and move toward that goal, never losing sight, never losing sight and keeping the target clear on what change could look like.

This is a characteristic I see. I see often with boldness, and I don't see often. I'm sorry, I don't see often. Oftentimes it's easy to shrink away from a bold step forward. It's hard sometimes to stand out there on your own and wait until everybody catches up.

MaryAnn: But leaders are bold. Leaders are bold enough to say what we're doing is good, but it can be better or what we're doing really needs a change. Those kinds of things, when we see them in leaders, they stand out.

We see them on a national level. We see leaders who rise to the forefront. We say to ourselves, How do they have the guts to do that? Why are they so committed? Now we see some of these leaders rise to the fore in the the turmoil and they captured our imagination and they capture our awe and wonder.

They make us rethink ourselves and what we are here for. That's the kind of boldness I see in some of the places that I’ve been. to really make the next step forward. So the first thing I would say is leaders are bold. I list, or name two people, but there are more.

And this is in my small world. So I don't mean to be exclusive to anyone, but I do mean to say that they are really out there. So I share the leaders that I talk about in order to say I'm not saying this in a vacuum, I'm saying it because we've seen and can find people that have made these bold steps.

And for those of you who are in education, maybe some of you are those both leaders, for those of us who've been around education for a while, that too, we found those leaders. But those kinds of leaders, they are the bold ones who step forward because they know where they're going. They want people to catch up with them.

MaryAnn: The second thing I would say and I say this from my passion, a place of passion as a former employee in the New Jersey Department of Education, we have made real knowledge that fake knowledge, not somebody else's knowledge, not book knowledge, but they need real knowledge of the New Jersey law and code. I might go so far as to say not just the New Jersey line, but the federal law and code, the statutes, that we live under.

Though code has always been sort of a beginning of where we can go, and what we can do for kids. It isn't meant to be exclusive, like the only thing we can do. It’s meant to give us direction. Leaders who don't want well grounded in those foundational pieces often get themselves mixed up. Maybe don't take steps forward that are cemented, maybe build a structure that has fractures and cracks.

Before you can be bold, you have to be knowledgeable. You have to know enough so that when you're making changes, you're making them strong footing and foundation. The other thing is, it’s hard to argue when the work comes from a good and clear direction as our IDEA code and our NJ administrative code. So I would say the second thing that we really need is knowledge of the law and code.

There's a lot of ways to get that. You can certainly study it. There are classes at Rutgers. I teach one of them. I'm sure a lot of our universities have law and code classes, but we find that in community as well. There's some really neat things happening in our counties where people come together and they ask themselves questions about law and code. It’s community that kind of brings life to the statutes that we can read that sometimes don't make much sense or don't give us real fruitful ways to embody the code.

MaryAnn: So it's the knowledge of law and code, but the application comes alive in talking about talking through it. What I love doing this in places that want to change. There's some leaders out there that give me a call from time to time. Tiffany in Mount Holly is one, I’m thinking of Katie. Those people want to make a change, but they want to be sure that they're walking in the right way, and so, this knowledge of law and code is something they check in on.

Again, that's building community. It's built with people who've been around world invested or been around since the inception of IDEA in the 70’s, right. But we need this real knowledge of law and code. We need to flesh it out, think about it, so that how we move forward is grounded in the true that national IDEA and statewide NJAC gives us the ability to do.

So going back, leaders and bold, leaders need real knowledge, so that they can make strong foundational change, and then leaders need to find success in small moments.

They need to realize that change needs at least three years sometimes to come to fruition. It doesn’t happen overnight. And if it doesn't happen overnight, good for you, and if you have been the recipient of that, you're lucky, because it's hard work, this thing called change. Leading, and leading to strength means that we have to take the part in small successes.

I work with leaders who sometimes are frustrated that everybody doesn't come in at the same time that there's questions that we find a gap, that we find something we didn't plan for. We get overwhelmed with that and say, forget it, we're not going to move forward. It's just too hard. Or, we can take time each day to find a success in the small moments.

MaryAnn: I want to think about kids that are sometimes a challenge. They are hard to handle. They are hard to include. We have to be honest and say that. This isn't easy work. Kids come with lots of need.

Sometimes it feels overwhelming to figure out how we can actually provide inclusion for them. that if we can take small successes, if we don't have to do all of it. Take as they say, small bites of the elephant, instead of trying to swallow the whole thing, maybe what we can do is be a success with the small successes.

I’m thinking of a school with a student who was challenged by some behavior regulation, this little boy would often just have meltdowns, sometimes it involved throwing things, sometimes breaking the glass window of the door that separated the classroom from the hallway. And you know those have thin laid wire in them. So breaking that glasses pretty hard to do.

This leader didn’t give up. This leader did not say, okay, this students needs to be somewhere else. Even though the safety of the students were his priority. He certainly emptied the classroom while helping the student regulate. We have lots of dedicated staff. He shared with parents that his desire was to include this student, using supports to make this work. We can imagine not everybody being on the same page, but in a supportive community where a mission has been established that we all belong, that we are family.

The boy went on to be included in that classroom, and the general ed classroom the next school year, with the dedication of staff, students and teachers who are able to put the pieces together. This what I mean by finally success in the small moments.

MaryAnn: Did he still have a plan that sometimes gave him time out of the classroom. Sure. Did he still have people that came into the classroom and a special signal to have that be an immediate call to action. Sure.

But instead of the easier result of putting him somewhere else, this success, even though it was hard to do, continued to build and breed a success, that was monumental. Certainly for this young man, but perhaps for all the students and teachers and the staff at this school.

So leaders are bold. They know where they're going, as they know where they're going, they settle soundly on the law and code that gives them direction to do that. but they also find the success.

I was class optimist in high school. For those people that know me, those who recognize my voice on this podcast. They'll probably recognize that as one of the ways that I see life. But I will say this as well. Sometimes I think voting being voted class optimist in high school is the one thing that brings me back to this work every single day with a way of looking at what works, not a way of looking at what didn’t work.

I pend time with lots and lots of districts that tell me what doesn't work. Here's the truth. We don't have a choice. We just have to be something we are all wrapped around as leaders is mandatory and I told you about the battle in New Jersey. So you can't keep finding a reason it doesn’t work.

We have to build those moments when we really can make a change happen in the state of New Jersey, make a change in schools.

Arthur: I love finding success and the little things. And I think that is true for the work of inclusion and just in life in general. I think that's a great advice. And as you said, being the optimist,

MaryAnn: There’s rough days Arthur. I got to go with it. It’s good that we remember the good days, so that we wake up the next morning.

Arthur: That's right. Yeah. That is such just great life advice in general to celebrate and find success in the little things. And like you said, it doesn't happen overnight, this inclusion, that it's not a big overnight success kind of thing that you'll see.

But in the small things, you can see that, this school year, you're not where you were last school year and not even last month. And just to keep moving forward and, just keep looking toward that end goal and knowing that you're headed in the right direction and like you said, to focus on what's going right and what works instead the things that don't work.

And yeah, you tried it. It didn't work, but you have to keep moving forward and, try other things and it's all going to work out. Although it may be slow and it may seem slow, the process and the journey, but it's all it's all worth it in the end to make sure that everybody is included and, a part of the whole community and the family that is the school and all of that.

So, yeah, that's really great.

Arthur: So, Marianne, thank you so much for this conversation. I really enjoyed this conversation. I enjoyed speaking with you a few weeks ago to plan this this conversation. And a lot of the schools that you mentioned are in the area that I grew up in. So I'm very familiar with the work that they're doing and, the work that they have done.

I was actually in a school in Cherry Hill yesterday. Cherry Hill High School East. So. Yeah, Yeah. So I'm very familiar with these. What the districts in this Camden County area of New Jersey. So it's great to see and take care of the work that they that those districts and so many other districts are doing to, you know, make inclusion a a true and authentic experience in their districts for their students and the families.

I love what you said about the being authentic to it. That is so true and so important with, again, not just in the work of inclusion, but in life in general. It's just a great life Advice.

MaryAnn: We’ll just call this life lessons. It was a leasure talking with you. I hope you hear my passion. I think that we’re all put here for a purpose in this life. the conversation around inclusion is is really purposeful. It wakes me up in the morning. It keeps me up at night sometimes, but it certainly gives me energy. It's a passion that I like to share with those who are ready to do the hard work. We have a call to action in New Jersey. I really want to stress that this isn't just a nice conversation.

It's so important for leaders to really start thinking about what the future can be. Small changes, little steps forward. This is what we need to do in New Jersey. We can't stand on the sidelines anymore and wait for something to happen. Make it happen. So those kinds of conversations, we should be at the ready for, to advantage of and move forward with real conviction so that we can be more to those with disabilities in New Jersey, so that we can we lead to be at a place that's not at the bottom of the pack.

MaryAnn: and say that New Jersey can make a difference.

Arthur: Yes, I agree. It's been great talking with you. And thank you again for your time

MaryAnn: You take care.

Arthur: Yes, you too. And I'll be in touch soon.

MaryAnn: All right. Goodbye.

Arthur: Great. Bye bye. Bye.

Michael McSheehan and I continue our conversation and get into why implementation science can assist with influencing change in the school setting, and the importance of implementing a strategic plan that involves all the correct stakeholders.

Arthur: This is the Inclusion Think Tank Podcast brought to you by New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education, NJCIE, where we talk about inclusive education, why it works, and how to make it happen.

On this episode I welcome back to the podcast, my guest, Michael McSheehan. Today we continue our conversation and get into why implementation science can assist with influencing change in the school setting, and the importance of implementing a strategic plan that involves all the correct stakeholders.

Arthur: So to switch gears a little bit, you and I had some pre-conversations about recording this and topics to discuss.

And one of the things that we discussed is implementation science. So can you share with us what implementation of science is, how it is used to create change in schools, and why you feel it is important in the sustainability of inclusion?

Michael I'm going to geek out again. Here we go.

Arthur: Great.

Michael: I love me some implementation science. So basically, implementation science is a study of change. It's a study of change with a focus on how we adopt, integrate really effective practices and policies.

And it's a field of science in health care and education, in community change. It's in public health. It's really spreading all over. There is a huge strand of it focused solely in the field of education.

Right. Implementation science is a method of improvement that really focuses on how education changes are carried out. Right. With attention to all the local variables that come to bear within a school or district.

All we know, all the dynamics and culture that builds over time in a school or district. Putting that in the context of state and professional priorities, in the context of the broader society or culture that we live in. Regional influences.

Michael: So it's a method of improvement that focuses on effective practices and acknowledges the context, their influences and how to navigate to get things fully implemented, fully used so that children can benefit. There's a lot of educational practices that kind of get partially put in place, sort of put in place, and others that get up and running, and then, our principal left, our superintendent changed, and so now we don't do that anymore. Right. Practices that just get abandoned.

And so what implementation science helps us do is to really look at what's going to work, to get to a place where we can get that full implementation in the full benefit from our practice and have it just become that second-order deep change like this is just how we do it now versus this is a special initiative that we're trying out. Like there's a long distance between beginning to try it out and actually having it just be how we do school.

Arthur: I’ve heard in my conversations I've doing this podcast, I've heard a lot of people say, that like an inclusive education is not just something, not a one-time thing. It's not just something that we are trying out, it is something that you have to do over time, and keep going at it and like you said, then it just becomes, it's what we do. It's what we're doing. And it's not an initiative to meet something, a goal, or something like that.

So it's just really just becomes part of the whole environment, the school environment. And that's really, really cool. I was really interested in that. And so I'm glad that you wanted to talk about that. So thank you.

Michael: Yeah, one of the big contributing forces in implementation science is this idea of braiding and coherence. So teachers experience a flood of initiatives flying at them Monday through Friday, and they're expected to just like put it all together and make it happen in my class.

And what implementation science brings is a set of tools and methods for school and district leaders and community leaders to engage and look carefully at all the different things that are going on and find ways to braid those together and put them into a coherent framework.

I’m working with the district not far from my hometown right now, and we just did a little inventory. Like, let me know how many different initiatives are underway right now and what they intend to accomplish and who's working with you on those different initiatives, and are they fully in place yet.

And they came back in their inventory. They had 43 different initiatives across five schools. It's a lot. That's too much. So how do we braid all of those different initiatives together, some of which have really similar aims?

Michael: So you're working on competency-based education, multi-tiered system of support, universal design for learning, competency-based grading and reporting. You have this vision of what's called Portrait of a Learner. You have all these things that really have some common destinations.

Can we break them down to their core elements? Put it into a framework that's understandable and usable for teachers on Monday, such that they're not always completely overwhelmed, and that when they hear of practice, they know where it fits into the broader framework.

And that will help leaders also better target and focus resources so that they're not just sending a bunch of people off to various conferences. I mean, I love coming to an institute that's focused on these issues.

I love doing trainings and workshops. But those only get you to an awareness level. There's still a huge gap between that initiative to awareness and being able to do it in your classroom. So if we really care about teachers and all the things that are on the administrator's plates, We can draw from some of the tools and practices in implementation science to make things not only more efficient but more effective.

All right. I could geek out about this all day long. If there is a particular aspect of this you want me to drill down into. I am happy to do so.

Arthur: I think what you said is all great. And, it's so important that we share this. And like you said, going from the awareness piece of going to workshops and conferences and all of that, to learn about and educate yourself about it.

But to actually put that work to use for the things that you've learned to use and implement them, that’s a whole different ballgame and can really take some, some time to do, and, so it's necessary to get that awareness and education piece, but to put it in action is the real important part.

Michael: Yeah, right. Like, I think I can't remember his name. He's one of the big leaders in the field of implementation science, and I'm drawing a blank on his name because I'm horrible with nouns, but it will come to me. His line is kids do not benefit from interventions that they do not experience.

Arthur: Wow.

Michael: Right. Like, if we don't get the actual instructional practice as it's intended for kids, we can't expect them to benefit from it.

And it seems like it's painfully obvious, right? Like, my car does not benefit from a car wash it does not go through, right? That seems kind of obvious, but we keep thinking we're doing the car wash. Like, we're not really just, like spraying the water into the air near the car, but not like actually doing the thing that we intended to do.

I want to go back because part of your question I think was why is implementation science so important for the sustainability of our work in inclusive education? And I don't know that I completely answered you and I really want to.

I started to go there and I didn't bring it back around. It's this focus on braiding that's important to sustain the work in inclusive education. Right? Because if you see kind of inclusion as an initiative, as a siloed effort, separate from how we're designing curriculum, right?

Michael: If we're doing understanding by design and curriculum or universal design for learning and curriculum, but we're not talking about equity issues for kids with significant disabilities, then that's not getting infused and it's still one step away. Like I stopped do my inclusion work while I'm doing my UBD work, while I'm doing my grading and reporting work, and that's not helpful.

Teachers need us to look at all the initiatives we have underway and administrators need us to work with them to say, okay, where does consideration for students with significant disabilities being in general education classrooms come into all of these different initiatives?

Michael: So what will quality curriculum design look like when it considers this population of learners? What will screening as part of your MTSS framework, What will screening or progress monitoring need to look like in order to include this population of learners with the most extensive support needs?

What will grading and reporting need to look like? I see districts that have these report card systems that in no way, shape or form could be used, as is to report on students with complex support needs who take alternate assessments.

Because altering assessment doesn't mean you're doing alternate curriculum, right? You're still working on the same standards, but it's not tied back through the reporting system. So the braiding piece of implementation science, I think, could really reduce the effort, and increase the sustainability of inclusive education because we can be braiding things in as we go.

I told you I can geek out on this for a long time Arthur, really, I could’ve done an hour just on that.

Arthur: I love it, though.

It's great information to have because it all makes sense. It all makes sense in the way that you're explaining it. It's in a way that everybody can understand why and how it can make sense so easily, and just with a little bit of effort from everybody, it can all be done.

Michael: Yeah, well, a little bit of effort and a long-term plan.

Arthur: Yes. Yes.

Michael: People think we're going to get this done in a year or two, no, we need to help manage your expectations. Not going to happen in just a year or two. It’s going to take five.

Arthur: Yes. That's a great segway into our next question, actually, of strategic planning.

Can you share with us why it is important to create a strategic plan that engages the correct stakeholders for an inclusive education goal?

Michael: Wow. I love that you ask such light questions. That's great. So take that in two parts, because I was kind of already speaking to the strategic planning part. Right? Like you want to create a plan so that you can manage your workloads so that you don't have 43 initiatives underway across your five schools.

So you want to create a strategic plan that says, here's how we're going to bring coherence to all of the work that we're doing. You want to create a strategic plan that maps out and acknowledges that implementation, and getting stuff in place happens in stages of work, and you want your plan to be developmentally responsive to where people are in their implementation effort.

Early on, people are asking, Well, why should we do this and should we do this, and if we do this, what will that involve? What are the roles and responsibilities? Right? And then you get into doing it. And when you get to that, that part of it, people are going to want to know, like, what are all the support structures for doing this work?

What is job-embedded coaching? What are the meeting structures? What are the data systems? What policies have to change now that we're doing this work? And then you're moving forward again to say right now, if we want to sustain this and fully integrate this, we're going to make sure it's completely braided with other work.

What's our long-term funding for the various elements of this work? So a strategic plan helps you communicate thoughtfully and honestly the nature of the work, and coherence for that work to be doable over time.

Michael: The latter part of your question, engages all the correct stakeholders and I would say, well, all the stakeholders are the correct ones. Let’s get them all in there in some way. And this would be going back to your first question, some things that are changed in the way that we approach the work.

And in terms of engaging stakeholders in this changing process around inclusive education. We used to take an approach that was very directed. Here's what you have to do. Here's how you do it. We provide the training and the coaching and the job-embedded tools, and you go do it.

And this kind of change is not going to happen with a very technical approach, because it's not a technical problem. A technical problem is discrete and bounded. You can see it and name it and say, Oh, four teachers who don't know how to do this thing, we can provide training and coaching. If it's known and you can see the solutions, it’s a technical problem. This idea of really engaging as equal members, students with significant disabilities in our public schools, that’s what we call an adaptive problem.

Michael: It’s messy. There are all kinds of isms floating around with that one. There are all kinds of challenges to our system floating around with that one. And if you bring in outsiders who are just going to tell you how to do it, it's not going to change.

So you've got to engage the internal stakeholders in your system, your staff, your administrators, your board, community members, families, and the students themselves all need to be engaged so that they own the problem.

The kind of tagline phrase is called psychological ownership, where individuals see and recognize that there is a problem that they want to change, that there's a more preferred, more desirable future. And they then generate the solutions for that work. Now, of course, you can go visit some places and see some elements of the work that are common that could be helpful locally, but the local group really needs to figure out exactly what it's going to look like in our context if it's going to sustain over time.

So engaging the stakeholders, all of them, with the information that they need, right?

Probably not every family wants to hear the ins and outs of implementation, science or the change process. As much as I would love to have coffee with them and tell them all about implementation science, but you do need to have a district leadership team or a district implementation team who is building their capacity with things like implementation science so that they can thoughtfully lead the change process.

Michael: So different stakeholders may have at different times, different pieces of communication that there that are most important for them to know about and act on. But you want them all engaged in the change process so we can manage everybody's expectations and get there.

Arthur: I like what you said that they're all the correct stakeholders because it isn't just the teachers that are involved in this process. It's like you said, it's the community, it’s all the staff and the faculty of the schools that are involved in making these changes. And that's something so important to mention.

So to conclude our conversation, just one last question for you, and that is what schools or states, what you choose as examples that show great inclusive education and why?

Michael: Short answer first. None. And it's not that there aren't good people doing good things in schools, in states across this country, because there are lots of amazing things happening. You can go to websites like SwiftSchools.org, The Swift Education Center.

You can go tiescenter.com. The Time. Instruction. I can't remember all their letters Engagement and Supports. Tiescenter.org and the swiftschools.org And you'll see lots of examples.

I was part of the Swift Education Center for what, five, six, seven years? You'll see videos from schools in Maryland and Oregon and Mississippi. All doing great stuff. And I want to be really careful that there are schools each doing great stuff, but maybe not one school has everything that you would want to know or see around inclusive education.

And you can't just look at one school and how they do it and neatly import that to your school. And I was referring to this earlier. Like, you can go to different states and schools and see particular elements that are very strongly in place in different schools, and you can see common threads of staffing arrangements and service delivery models and school-wide schedules and curriculum design approaches that are common across these. And yet they're slightly different in each context.

Michael: And that's part of what helps them sustain that element, it's been tailored to the context. So I wouldn't say kind of in a status report, you can go here to see a great conclusion because that may not be how it's going to look like in your school.

All those all those different elements are definitely integrated, but they're also compensatory. They're playing out in different ways. I know it's not a popular answer. Like, I've been asked this before, like, can you send us a list of great inclusive schools?

And in part I also say none, because I've had enough experience now to have worked with some schools that were doing amazing things and people found out they were doing amazing things, and then everybody started to move there and visit there and look there, and eventually the system imploded because of all the pressure.

When you see families who are like, no, I want my kid included, I'm moving to this town. Well, when you do so, now it's a different population. Right.

Michael: I saw a high school get built as an inclusive high school, structurally, physically and programmatically. And within a few years, they had trailers of where students and teachers were working in trailers because everybody just moved there and it was too much, too much.

Michael: So I'm really hesitant to do that.

Arthur: I think you definitely answered the question because it's what works in one district might not work in your district. So you can take pieces of something that you see, something that you like that's working, but you also have to tailor it to your specific needs at your school and your district and your students.

Michael: I hope it’s helpful.

It’s not always a pleasant answer to hear. But I want to be honest from my perspective.

Arthur: Right, right. And I think for me, I always say, I have spinal bifida, and if you've meet me, you've met one person with spinal bifida because the next person you meet might not have to use a wheelchair, might not have to use crutches like I do. It looks different for everybody.

And I think the same can be applied to inclusive education. It has to be tailored to your community, to what your student's needs are.

And what works over in this town might not translate and work too well in your town. So again, we can all look at different places and see things that we like and things that we want to incorporate and include and implement in our district but, it has to be tailored and structured in a way that works for us.

Michael: Yep. I strongly agree. Absolutely. Common elements, but when they come together, it's going to look a little different over here.

Think about it as like a mosaic. Like this tile is going to be bigger in your town, then that tile will be in the other town. Then going to have a ripple effect out.

Or think about it as a kaleidoscope. Like certain colors are going to come together in your town that are not going to come together in that place that you’ve visited. It's just not going to look that obviously replicable.

Arthur: Wow. Two great examples of the mosaic. And if you're like, wow, And that's so true. That's so true. It will look different in every place, every person that looks at it from their perspective and from their vantage point, looks different. So. Wow.

Michael, this conversation has been just great. I've really enjoyed speaking with you and having you share your story and your knowledge about the world of inclusion and the changes and work that you and your team are doing to make changes in the world of inclusive education. So thank you for your time today and we will be in touch soon.

Michael: Thank you for all that you're doing. Thank you so much, Arthur.

Arthur: Oh, you're welcome. And have a good day.

Michael: Okay. Bye bye.

Arthur: We thank you for listening to this episode of the Inclusion Think Tank Podcast. This podcast is brought to you by New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education, NJCIE. Be sure to subscribe on YouTube, Spotify, or Apple Podcasts. And don’t forget to follow us on social media, @NJCIE. Until next time.

On this episode, I welcome my guest Michael McSheehan. Michael is the owner and lead consultant of Evolve & Effect, a company that assists education agencies on how they can evolve their practices to increase positive effects for learners. On this, part 1 of our conversation, we discuss what changes he has seen in the world of inclusive education in his more than 30 years of working in the field, and how a specific court case in his hometown had a lasting impact on his career path.

Arthur: This is the Inclusion Think Tank podcast brought to you by New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education, NJCIE, where we talk about inclusive education why it works, and how to make it happen.

On this episode, I welcome my guest Michael McSheehan. Michael is the owner and lead consultant of Evolve & Effect, a company that assists education agencies on how they can evolve their practices to increase positive effects for learners. On this, part 1 of our conversation, we discuss what changes he has seen in the world of inclusive education in his more than 30 years of working in the field, and how a specific court case in his hometown had a lasting impact on his career path.

Arthur: I would like to welcome everyone back to another episode of the Inclusion Think Tank podcast brought to you by New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education. I'm your host, Arthur Aston, and I'm happy to welcome my guest on the show today, Michael McShane.

And I am so happy to talk with you again and to see you virtually. So thank you for being here, Michael.

Michael: My pleasure. Thank you so much, Arthur, for inviting me.

Arthur: Yes, you and I, we met over the summer of last year at the New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education, had a summer conference, and you and I, we met there. So it's good to see you again, virtually, and to hear a little bit of, you know, your story and your journey and what you're doing in the world of inclusive education.

Michael: Sure. Happy to be here. Let’s do it.

Arthur: So to get started, can you just tell us a little bit about yourself? Things like how long have you been in the field of inclusive education? And also, what led you to create your company Evolve in Effect?

Michael: Okay. So all of that. Let's see. Some stuff about me that's relevant that you want to know. Born and raised in the same town as my parents. Well, my father was born someplace else, but was really raised in Rochester, New Hampshire.

Just three houses down from where my mother was born and raised, and her only brother lived in that same neighborhood. So Rochester, New Hampshire is kind of our family's hometown Most of the family is here within a few miles of each other.

It's funny, growing up in that situation when I applied to college, because I was the first person in our family to go to college, and I thought, Oh my God, I'm never coming back to this town.

I’m never coming back to this town, and lo and behold, I came back to this town. But that’s a later part of the story.

Michael: I have been working in this field for, gosh, I guess a little over 30 years now. So I've been around for a while and sequel to things. I originally was going to be a veterinarian, but I had developed severe allergies. So after several years of going down a path to become a veterinarian, I had to rethink things, and so this seemed like a logical alternative.

Michael: I looked at a lot of different options; psychology, and I did some informational interviewing with people in our Department of Communication Disorders. I did my undergraduate work at the University of New Hampshire and met with some faculty in that department and just kind of said, So what is this field about?

Speech, language, something, pathology? What do they do? And the more I learned about the field, I was really interested, and as part of my coursework, my, advisor, Dr. Stephen Calculator, who is a forerunner in the field of augmentative communication, working with people with significant disabilities.

He was my advisor and he said, there are these classes being taught by these people out of the Institute on Disability that are introductory courses to exceptionality, just special education, and you really should take their courses. So I took courses with Jan Nesbitt and Cheryl Jorgensen and got exposed to things I had just never experienced before.

I remember in Jan's class, Jan was really good at getting other people to teach her class, she had a lot of guest lecturers. And about halfway through the course, we've been, reading about people with significant disabilities and hearing from doctors and professors, and then suddenly I was coming into class and I saw this guy in a wheelchair, kind of a scooter, and he had a helper dog and he had a person helping him.

Michael: And I heard him make some sounds, but they didn't sound like words. And I thought, Oh, that's a person with a severe disability. Jan's going to talk about him today, and in fact, that guy gave the lecture.

Michael: He wheeled up to the front of the class and pulled out a communication board and started tapping away at letters and words and gave the lecture for the class. And they sat there at the back of the class just beside myself, not knowing what was going on and completely hooked. I was like, I need to understand this.

And that really became kind of the drive of my work from that moment forward was understanding communication differences for people who had limited or complicated speech and then kind of got pulled into the education arena and it just all kept going from there.

Sorry, what question was answering again? How long have I been in the field? A long time, and that's what led me to this part of the work.

What led me to start my company is when I left U Of H, I thought as an undergrad when I left and went to Syracuse to do grad work, I thought, oh, I’m never going back to New Hampshire. And it seems like every time I say that statement, it comes back around at me.

Michael: As I was wrapping up my graduate work, Jan Nesbitt, the director of the Institute on Disability, asked me to come for an interview and I ended up going back to work at the University of New Hampshire. Then I left for a little while, and did some private consulting and then came back, I think in early 2000, just came back to just do one project for four years and, stayed another 15 years.

So after 20 years, it was time to get out again from the university setting and I started the company, and I draw on lots of different people's work. And I had worked with National Technical Assistance Centers on these very targeted projects, and I just I wanted to more flexibility. I wanted to choose who I was going to work with.

I'm old and. Grumpy. So I want to find good people to work with. I wanted greater choice and control over that, over who I would serve.

Michael: And so I started the company thinking, I want to work with schools in districts who are just asking hard questions and who really want really significant change in education for all students, especially those with disabilities and those who have been historically marginalized.

And I thought this will be how I kind of just fade into the sunset. This will be my slow retirement. I'll start this little company just me consulting, and now the company, I've got, what, three-four employees. And we've got eight different subcontractors and partners that work on the right project, and I'm bringing on another full-time employee in July.

The company just keeps expanding because I think the more clear I got about the kind of work I wanted to do and the kind of people I wanted to work with, those people now, I’m finding those people more and more, and those systems more and more that are asking really hard questions and want to do good stuff.

So we're trying to put together a team of really good people to do that with them.

Michael: So I did want to go back. Just to tell you a little bit, one more thing about the company and what we're doing. Because this is just kind of evolved.

I mean, like the company's name is Evolve and Effect. I’m really interested in, as I said, like the really hard, messy stuff like that just gets me charged up. And a school district approached me, gosh, about a year ago to completely rethink how they were teaching autistic learners.

And we started a pilot in one school and they had been running this autism program that was very much driven by ABA, discrete trial training, and token economies, and it wasn't being responsive to who autistic learners actually were.

And so both undoing this program and supporting these learners to be part of the school community in small steps, we're getting there. But like, that's the kind of messy work that that the company’s involved with now, that's just so exciting, and the outcomes we get are just incredible.

Michael: At this point last year in that program, in that school, they had had by this point in the year, hundreds of behavioral incidents with these students, such that they were using restraint and seclusion.

So 250 different incidents of restraint and seclusion from the beginning of school till now. A year ago, since we've started working with them, beginning the school to now, we've had two incidents where a child needs to be restrained.

Michael: And that was really just to keep them safe in that circumstance. It's really messy. It's really hard work. And, the school just really wants to do better. And so they're asking these really hard questions.

And now the district is aiming to expand that to all of their elementary schools where they have these other kinds of very much behaviorally driven programs. They're now going to switch to being very responsive to what is autism and what do these autistic learners need, and how do we do that in a way that's centered on equity and inclusion at the same time.

Michael: And it's just. When I started the company. It's not what I thought it would be doing and I'm loving it. It's great.

Arthur: That's great. And I love that you said once you became more clear about, what it is you want to do, those people found you and you found them. And it's like it's expanding. That's really, really cool.

Arthur: For those who are not watching this on YouTube, I love the excitement I see on your face when you talk about it.

I think that's what is really important because, to me, that shows that you're in it for the right reasons and you're doing it because you believe in it and you know that there needs to be some changes made and to actually see the changes being made, as you said, you went from all of the incidences that they had before and now they're working with you and they've had two.

Michael: Yes me and a team.

Arthur: Yes, yes.

Michael: That one is actually done in partnership with a wonderful group called Autism Level Up.

My wonderful colleagues, Amy Lorent, and Jacqueline Feady, they are incredible partners in this work. So I really don't want to say, like Michael went in with a bunch of special dust, and just made a great happen.

There's a team of us and now our challenge is we need to work ourselves out of a job, right Like we need to build the capacity and get out of there. They had contracts with these behavioral agencies for six years and we're spending hundreds of thousands of dollars every year, and I look at it and it's like, well, that should come back. You all should be able to do whatever Amy and Jacqueline and I come in and do. We want to support them to do that. There's plenty of work to happen in the world. We don't need a district to be paying us forever.

Michael: Which may maybe unpopular and probably not a really great business plan on my part. But I want to work myself out of a job.

Arthur: Yes, right. Oh, wow, that's that's a good one. So I guess kind of like a follow-up question to that.

You've mentioned that you have been doing this work for 30 years or for over 30 years. What are some of the changes you have seen in those years of working? And I guess where would you say improvements still needs to be made?

Michael: Loaded questions.

Arthur: Yes!

Michael: Gosh, what's changed? We've really shifted, in the area of inclusive education, and I'm not sure that that's a helpful thing to call it anymore, but that’s probably another podcast.

But we've really shifted from this one child-at-a-time work to a more system-wide school and district and state capacity building. And I think that that's been a really important change in the field. We need to kind of look at the broader systems and structures that have maintained separateness for kiddos, and we weren't getting to some of those kinds of systemic barriers, that kind of institutionalized ableism that has played out in schools.

And there's been a shift now to attend to that much more so that if you make these changes school-wide, it can lift up many more students than just trying to do one student at a time.

That said, we still do one student at a time because each kiddo is going to need really specific supports.

Michael: Other changes in the field over time, alignment with these school-wide frameworks like Multi-Tiered System of Supports, Universal Design for Learning.

Oh my gosh. When we started this work, we didn't have Universal Design for Learning. And wow, how helpful is that in terms of thinking about curriculum design that's built for all of the learners that you have to know that that's achievable, that we have seen it happen in schools in really great ways, and when that's in place, so many barriers come down and there's still more to remove, but that's such a central one around curriculum design, and that's something that really works well.

Michael: Something that has not changed. This is going to sound weird, but research outcomes have not changed in the 30-plus years that I've been in the field, right? In my time in the field, the research outcomes have held constant. Right. It keeps showing that, yes, we should be putting kids with significant disability labels into general education classrooms.

Yes, we should be teaching them general curriculum and we can. And that's better than the alternative of being in separate settings.

So last year, I don't know, you probably did a podcast on this. I haven't listened to all your podcasts, but like last year there were a series of huge studies that came out that once again reinforced this large-scale studies looking at students with significant disabilities across 11 states. All of their outcomes, point to more time in general and results in higher scores on reading and math. Better social relationships, and better opportunities for employment, and this is for students with the most significant disabilities. So like. At some point, it's no longer about, like, do some more research. It's really about how we did this, and I think that that is a thing that's also changed in the field.

Michael: We’re thinking differently about the how piece of this work and how are we going to partner with schools and districts to do this long-term heavy lift change, right? Like you think about all the work we still have to do in the area of racism and schooling. We've got as much, if not more work to still do around ableism and schooling.

Michael: And we've got schools leaning into that conversation across the country. Sorry, I may have gone off to a shiny object. Did I answer your question?

Arthur: You answered it. Fantastic. I loved that the research hasn't changed.

I said, whoa. It’s so true.

Michael: It hasn’t, No, but, you would expect in most endeavors in education, we expect to get lots of mixed results. But if you’re 40 years into the work and all the studies that compare outcomes, tracking kids across different settings, if all of those comparative studies keep pointing in the same direction, at some point you say, okay, so maybe we should follow the research. Hmm. Like, maybe that's a good thing to do.

Arthur: Yeah, maybe it's actually saying something. Wow.

Yeah, that was a great, great answer.

Arthur So, as you mentioned, you grew up in Rochester, New Hampshire. And after we met over the summer, it was my first time meeting you and learning about the work that you do.

So I did some research and looked up some things that you've done, and I've listened to some podcasts and things that you've been on before then and since then. And something that I heard you speak about that I would like for you to discuss here as well is the court case of Timothy versus Rochester, which took place in your hometown.

So can you share with us what that court case was about and how and why it profoundly had an impact on you?

Michael: Glady, because it really has become this driving force in my life, and it's in part how the company came to be named.

So fun story or not So fun story. So Timothy W. was a student born in Rochester, New Hampshire, in December of 1975, born with multiple disabilities. Lots of things going on for him. He had attended a local child care development center in his early years, 3 to 5 years old or so.

And, we're going back now, way back when, right. Public law 94 142 had just come into effect. And here's this kiddo in Rochester, New Hampshire whose being, whose life existence will put the challenge out there for folks like did we really mean all learners with disabilities when we said public law 94 142?

So in the kind of early childhood and preschool arena, they started doing some work with him and coming to school. But when it came time for him to transition into the public school system K through 12, the school district decided that Timmy, Timothy was not educationally handicapped. Because, since his handicap was so severe and I'm using the language of the time since his disabilities were so severe, he was not, quote, capable of benefiting from an education and therefore was not entitled to one. Now. Let's just sit in for a second.

Arthur: Wow.

Michael: Here we are. We're around 1980 now, 1981, right now he’s five or six years old, about to enter the public school system. And the school system said, you are so disabled, you're not going to benefit from anything we should have to offer. Stay home.

Horrifying. And we know that this story was taking place across our country for decades, and it's still happening in some other ways. So the school district said, we're not going to provide you with any educational program.

They were back and forth with the State Department saying, yes, you really do need to provide educational programming to this student. Other programs evaluated him. Other consultants came in all saying yes, in fact. Timmy W. can learn some things.

We don't know what those are, but here's what we're seeing that lets us know this and this back and forth went on for six years. And finally, in 1988, Rochester School District appealed the decision that just kept coming back against them to the US District Court.

And again they were arguing Timmy W. was not capable of benefiting from special education and so we're not obligated to provide him with special education under that public law. So that's huge now.

Michael: Parallel lines here. Right. So at that time, I am now realizing that I am changing my field of study at the University of New Hampshire. I start taking these courses, with Jan Nesbit and Cheryl Jorgensen, and that's where I learn about the Timmy W. case.

I don't learn about it in my hometown news. I learned that this kiddo has been systematically excluded from public education by going to college. That's why I learned about it. And I was really, quite frankly, pissed off.

Like, who is this district to decide who can and can't go to school with? Who is this district to say that any child is not capable of benefiting from education? Now we've got decades have passed.

Right. So maybe there are some people now in the Rochester school system who would no longer believe that, but that's my hometown. So I know that the town put in all this effort and energy to keep a kid out, and that just continues to fuel me.

The case also came back with a huge decision that set a precedent for our field in special education. Timmy’s case raised the question of do you have to prove that you can benefit before you can get an education. And so there's this phrasing in special ed called the Zero Reject Policy, meaning you don't have to demonstrate this capacity to benefit in order to be eligible for education and special education services.

Michael: So that zero reject policy is huge and is the counterpoint to what the school system was saying. And this is where the company name comes in.

In the decision for this case, the judges wrote that educational methodologies are not static but are going to constantly be evolving and improving and that school districts, in Rochester, are responsible to avail themselves of the new approaches.

Michael: So that's part of what I want to recognize in entering this and starting this company, right?

That our educational methodologies do continue to evolve and we want to select those that have positive effects, that create a positive effect for our learners. And I'm really interested in working with the districts who want to figure out how all that comes together.

So that's why that case is so important to me. Was that more than you wanted to know?

Arthur: No, that was great. And one of the things that I wanted to point out because again, I heard you talk about that before, and looking up the case like this happened in my lifetime.

I was born in 1981.

So it really hit me hard, and I have a physical disability, I have spina bifida. But it was just like, wow, like this is not something that happens so far in the past.

I think a lot of things people like to think of as happening like, oh, that was so long ago.

That doesn't happen that much anymore. And that's just like, oh, it still happens

Michael: So not in that way. Right now It's become a little bit more covert and subtle, or not so subtle.

For ten years, we've seen no change in educational placement for kids with significant disabilities. I mean, just a flatline for ten years now across all of our states.

So clearly, we've got some work to do when we've got that high percentage of the population of students with disabilities still systematically excluded from general education settings in

general education teachers who are the content experts who can do the best teaching in reading and writing and math and science. Us special educators like I can give you something in that arena, but I'm not trained as a person who will teach the fundamentals of reading and writing and math and science.

And that's we need our general educators. Sorry, I'm on a pedestal again. I will step down here.

Arthur: You’re Fine. You're good. Again, I enjoy having these conversations because it really it's something that shows you're passionate, and the passion is what drives you to keep going when things get rough and you have a real determination and force behind you pushing you to help make these changes. So it's really, really important to talk about and to share these things.

Michael: There’s a lot of people in this work asking very similar and hard questions. And we will keep learning and we will keep doing.

Arthur: Yes. Yeah, exactly.

On this episode, I welcome back for part two of our conversation, Dr. Jessica McQueston, assistant professor at Sam Houston State University. Our discussion continues with how implementing a disability-inclusive curriculum can be beneficial to all students.

Arthur: This is the inclusion Think Tank podcast brought you by New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education, NJCIE, where we talk about inclusive education, why it works, and how to make it happen.

On this episode, I welcome back for part two of our conversation, Dr. Jessica McQueston, assistant professor at Sam Houston State University. Our discussion continues with how implementing a disability-inclusive curriculum can be beneficial to all students. Let’s get into the conversation.

Arthur: So you've recently presented a workshop at the TASH conference called How to Include Disability Inclusive Curriculum in the K to 12 Classroom. Can you tell us what a disability-inclusive curriculum is and what that looks like?

Jessica: Yeah. So, I think I've kind of hit on this already, but really, we talk about disability, we have to think about intersectionality and, the way that people with disabilities have made huge contributions to society, and some of these, like famous people from the past, all had disabilities, but they weren't seen as others, or maybe they weren't diagnosed at the time.

And so we've been able to kind of look back and diagnose them, but, there’s if you look in the media right now, there are tons of portrayals of, negative portrayals of people with disabilities. And so I think when we try to eliminate these stereotypes, we have to examine these assumptions and beliefs and everything else that they're based on and I think part of that starts with what is taught in schools.

And right now, disability is missing from the curriculum, and, people with disabilities are one of the largest minority groups in the U.S., and yet we're not part of the curriculum. We're ignored.

And so I have a few steps that you can take to kind of think about developing and looking at your curriculum and making it more disability inclusive. And so when I say that, I really think about like, how are we recognizing people with disabilities throughout the curriculum?

And so one thing that I like to recommend first is to really think about evaluating what curriculum you're using and really checking it for ableism. I'm sure most of us can think about like, Oh, we've read a book and the person with a disability is like this hero, right?

They are a hero, because they did a normal everyday tasks. Right? And so, and then also like there's some like attitudes and beliefs and other ablest remarks in the curriculum.

Jessica: And so I think when we think about doing that, we have to not only be open to changing what we've done in the past, like breaking out of the status quo. And I feel like over the last three years, especially, I've said that I don't know, probably 9 million times that we have to kind of break out of the status quo and be open to change.

But I think really start with looking at it, looking at whatever curriculum you're using and it might not even be the whole year. So maybe even just pick one unit or one topic that you're doing and say like, is there any mention of disability present?

Is it superficial? Is it actually deep? Is it just a brief mention of one line? And then also think about how are people with disabilities portrayed. Does it further perpetuate stereotypes about people with disabilities?

So I think that the first step is really taking a hard and honest look at what you're using and kind of evaluating it for ableism, embedded throughout.

Jessica: And then I think the next part is really this like design and design component.

Really think about what are the units that allow students to learn, I like to say about and from and with people with disabilities. And so again, recognizing that people with disabilities are the experts and they should be leading this conversation.

And so it's moved beyond just like a Disability Awareness Day, which is great. And that means you still have ten miles to go on this journey, but what you might do is include some outside materials.

So maybe you're doing a unit on, I don't know, the Civil War or something. And so not only do you take the textbook that you have, but also that needs to be, I'm sure, some added materials, but also like bring in some other materials and you might look at like some curriculums, have these like supplemental texts or resources maybe on their website or like might be sitting in your storage closet at a school.

Jessica: I worked with the students at NDSU, my previous institution, and she was doing she was a student teaching in seventh grade. I think a seventh-grade classroom might have been eighth-grade, but, a middle school classroom in history. They were talking about the civil rights movement, and she looked and this curriculum had these like extra kind of like short little like 20, 30-page readers on different topics that had just been sitting in a closet. She pulled one out and it was on the disability rights movement. And so she was able, which is like fascinating. Right? And so she was able to bring it into the classroom and like have this rich conversation and like a whole week-long unit on it.

And it was like, wow, this is something that would have never happened if she would have gone looking for it. Right. So it was purposely excluded from the main curriculum. And so that's another thing to kind of take in.

I know that a student was really incredible and she ended up taking like an extra class just to learn more about people with disabilities and special ed with me. And she took a grad class and it was fascinating, talk about a change-maker in the field.

Jessica: So you might also, if you’re talking about activism, for example, like have you brought in the Capital Crawl of 1990? There are tons of ways to do this.

I also think about, we have the Internet now, which is a fantastic resource. Over the past year, I've just started Googling random things. People with disabilities in ancient Egypt, people with disabilities in or that are biologists just to say like what are some people that we could highlight? What experiences could we highlight? Because again, one in four people throughout their lifetime are going to have a disability. So we need to address this.

Jessica: There’s also and I have a list, I'm going to read it, but the Museum of Disability History has tons of lesson plans out there across different grade bands and then some other things to think about of like there's different like councils and museums that are great opportunity to look at. Most are virtual. The Minnesota Council on Developmental Disabilities has some. The Museum of DisAbility History and ‘Ability’ is like capitalized on that.

The Disability History Museum, which again is different from the Museum of Disability History. And then Every Body it's an Artifact History of Disability in America by this Smithsonian Institute, which is it is a little bit older, but you can also incorporate some of that.

Jessica: So like even just looking at What was happening at this time and how can we bring in these artifacts? But really, I think. Really starting with like just a simple Google search. You can learn so much like there are a ton of other resources.

I could talk on this for another 10 minutes. It's like, what resources are out there? There are whole units on ableism that are out there. There are tons out there. I think you just have to look for it and really think about including that in your curriculum.

Jessica: And then also, be open to connecting with your local disability resource center or community resource center or other self-advocates. So I taught two to three, multi-age classrooms one year, and I connected with the Disability Resource Center in Albuquerque, New Mexico.

And they actually came and did like a presentation for not only my class but the whole school on disability. Yeah, it was really cool.

To have like self-advocates really like talking about, what does it mean to have a disability. What is it? it's not something to be scared of. Right. And it's just natural and doesn't mean that you can't do anything. And so really connecting with them, too. I mean, most communities will have this.

Jessica: After the pandemic started, we’ve really embraced this idea of virtual. So if you don't have a local resource community center, connecting with one maybe in your state or locally or not local, but like a little bit broader of a local circle.

Arthur: The resources are out there like you said. It's really just to find it. I know for me personally, we're recording this in February and it's Black History Month. So going back to something you mentioned earlier about intersectionality. So, I Googled being black and disabled and the list of people that show up and the different things, the different fields that they're in and just learning about different people. So that's something that I've been highlighting on my personal social media accounts this month.

So it's really like Google is there and it's very helpful when used correctly, to find out such great information and the resources that you mentioned. Some of which I haven't even heard of. So I will definitely be looking into this as well.

It’s so, so useful and so helpful like you said, to identify the ablest language in the curriculum that you may be using, the books that the students may be reading. And to open up that conversation, to start having a conversation about why this is ableist, why is this an outdated way of thinking or how can we possibly change this story a little bit to make the person with a disability a little bit, like you said, to not look as scary because that's a lot of things.

A lot of times that happens in movies and books and, they're thought of as the scary person, so it's like, how can we get away from that and, going back to, improving the language that we use when we talk about those who have who are disabled and have disabilities.

Arthur: It's really interesting. When you think about it. I think about the books that I read, coming up in school that had the disability represented in the stories.

And it's like, oh, wow, that was supposed to be the scary character and the person everybody stayed away from. And they didn’t look in their direction and it's like, Oh, wow,

Jessica: that’s really good. And I think like, that's also like a great point is like, not all materials are created equal, right?

And so, like, what, what are actually in the books like let's say you're bringing in books to your classroom. What are the characters doing? Are they just there to say, like, we have this representation? Or are they like the scary character?

Is it a true thing? Or are they just seen as a hero? Is it…why are they included? Is it for the right reasons, or are the books kind of perpetuating this idea of ableism?

And so I think that's also important. I'm glad you mention that. Because we all deserve to have, to see ourselves in books and in the curriculum. And so, if not, like we as a student, as K-through-12 student, as parents, as families, like we might have to step in and like call the staff and faculty and whoever in versus out and just say like, hey, here's this great resource. I know you're doing something for Black History Month and you also feature, someone who's black and has a disability. I love that idea. That’s just something quick and easy to do and it's not a huge change.

Jessica: I think when we think about disability inclusive a curriculum, we think like, oh gosh, I have to redo everything. I have to do that. It can be minor tweaks to make sure that people are represented and, you know, not only the students themselves, but, also their family members, their parents, or anyone else like anyone in their kind of group, or circle is represented and part of the curriculum that they're seeing and receiving.

Arthur: Yes. And that leads to like my last question, which we are already talking about almost.

And that is, how can using a disability-inclusive curriculum, support all learners? Again, I think we have already…

Jessica: Transitioned to that.

Arthur: Yeah, we already talked about that already. So that's a good thing.

Jessica: I do think like,, I work with a lot of general educators, current teachers that are in the field, and also like pre-service educators or, people that basically are going to school to be special educators or aren't special educators.

And some of them think like, oh, this doesn't really apply to me. Like, I'm not going to be a special ed teacher. Oh, I won't have those students, right. “Those students” in my classroom.

And so I always like to remind people, 14% of the school-age population has a disability and receives special education services. And so this statistic comes from NCeS, the National Center for Educational Statistics. I probably butchered that, but NCES just last year. So we're talking about 7.3 million students in K through 12 schools.

Jessica: So when you think about it like that, this is a huge group of students. It's a huge population that are not currently in most schools being represented in their curriculum. And so we really have to kind of push back and say, how can we include students not only in our schools but also in our curriculum?

Because this is going to not only help with representation, but it will also help kind of normalize the idea of a disability, that it's not this other-ing thing, it's not this thing to be scared of. And, again, that statistically, people will, experience disability throughout their lifetime at some point.

I will also say, like, it can also help with this idea of inspiration porn of like, oh, just oh, they are so special. There's this and like, wow, we're going to change the whole football game. And yes, they're included. And it's like, that's not really inclusion. We just put a fake time and a fake score on the on the field so that they could be in the game one time.

And, like, that's not inclusion. Um, it's nice, but. Exactly. Yeah, it's great. And I'm sure that kid really enjoyed it. Yeah, but it's not inclusive. And so, we don't need to, I always think of like prom season, like how many videos are we going to see of this person asks someone with a disability to prom. They’re such a great person. I'm like to stop! So ableist. it’s so bad.

Arthur: Yeah. And I and I think again, it goes back to the way that disability is talked about and portrayed in the world at large, in the media, and as a bad thing. And, as you said, that that, you know, people with disabilities are in this other group. And, rather than thinking of,, people, disabled people, as being just part of human diversity and, they are just diverse and another aspect of diversity.

And so it's not a big,, wouldn't be such a big thing that, a person without a disability is asking someone who is disabled to the prom. It's just like, yeah, as a disabled person, I, yeah I went to my prom and,, and I like to do things and go to parties and participate in events that, my classmates are participating in. It's not right now. It's nothing special about that. And yeah, I just want to do what my classmates are doing.

Arthur: So I think again, when like you said, that things have come a long way and there's a long way to go and a lot of these areas. But as we continue to have these conversations like this about the importance of language and the way that we discuss disabilities with the children in our lives.

And just as you're doing with the future educators that are coming through your courses at the college level. We can hope to start seeing a bigger change in the way that disability is discussed and portrayed in movies, books, in the media, in the news, and wherever we, have these interactions with people who have disabilities because we are everywhere, and like we said, we are not going anywhere. We're here to stay.

Jessica: Exactly. Exactly. And again, like, it not only is like 14% of the school population, not only did they receive special education services or, you know, 504 plans, but I also think, if we think about mental health and the amount of disability that has happened in the last few years from like long COVID and the effects of it on the body like. This is only becoming a bigger and bigger issue.

And so we just have to address it. The CDC has said that one in five students has, you know, is diagnosed with a mental illness and struggles with their mental health, but yet only 10% receive support.

So again, we kind of have to normalize this conversation around disability, around mental health, around intersectionality to really move this conversation forward. And yes, we can do that at the college level, but also with our K-through-12 students like they are the ones that are going to take the next generation and make this change.

So we have to kind of guide them and let them know that this exists and it can be in small ways. It doesn't have to be this huge thing. Although would be great if you had a whole unit on ableism. I’m not stopping you if you want to do that, but like go for it, please do it!

Jessica, even just having a book for read-aloud, that features someone with a disability is a great starting point. So starting small, I think, can really make this huge impact going forward if we all do our little small part.

Arthur: Yes. And with that, I will say thank you, Jessica. This was a great conversation. I really enjoyed this.

Jessica: Thanks for having me.

Arthur: you’re welcome. This was a good conversation to have and it brought up a lot of memories and things for me.

And it's really great to talk and to share these things out loud and just recognize,, where things need to be improved and how that's not always a difficult thing to do. I think that's the important thing to mention that,, changes can be made and they won't cost a lot of money and they won't disrupt your, you know, your lesson plan too much. If you're a teacher, it can easily be brought in as part of what you're already teaching and just adding a few things.

And, you know, to talk about disabilities a little bit more and to talk about them in the right and correct ways. And yeah. So thank you so much for joining me today. And I'm very happy that we were able to have this conversation.

Jessica: Yeah, thanks for having me.

Arthur: You’re welcome. Thanks.

Arthur: We thank you for listening to this episode of the Inclusion Think Tank Podcast. This podcast is brought to you by New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education, NJCIE. Be sure to subscribe on YouTube, Spotify, or Apple Podcasts. And don’t forget to follow us on social media, @NJCIE. Until next time.

On today’s episode, I welcome my guest, Dr. Jessica McQueston. Dr. McQueston is an assistant professor at Sam Houston State University. On this episode, which is part one of our conversation, Jessica and I discuss the important role that higher education professionals have in educating future educators about inclusive education, and why it is important to use the appropriate language when discussing disabilities.

Arthur: This is the inclusion Think Tank podcast brought you by New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education, NJCIE, where we talk about inclusive education, why it works, and how to make it happen.

On today’s episode, I welcome my guest, Dr. Jessica McQueston. Dr. McQueston is an assistant professor at Sam Houston State University. On this episode, which is part one of our conversation Jessica and I discuss the important role that higher education professionals have in educating future educators about inclusive education, and why it is important to use the appropriate language when discussing disabilities.

Arthur: I would like to welcome everyone back to another episode of the Inclusion Think Tank podcast brought to you by New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education. I am your host, Arthur Aston, and I am happy to have my guest today with me, Dr. Jessica McQueston.

So, Jessica, thank you for joining me today. It is a pleasure to have you on and to see you again.

Jessica: Yeah, thanks for having me. I'm happy to be on here.

Arthur You and I, had a chance to talk a few weeks ago about this conversation.

And I'm really excited for the information that we will be sharing and discussing today on the podcast.

So to get started, can you share with us a little bit about yourself and tell us who is Jessica? And also, can you share with us how you became interested in the world of inclusive education?

Jessica: Yeah. So I'm Dr. Jessica McQueston, but I go by Jessica. I even tell my students something like just it's fine. I'm not concerned about a title.

And so I'm currently an assistant professor at Sam Houston State University, which is about an hour north of Houston, Texas. And so I just joined the faculty here this year, and so I was at a previous institution for two years.

So, definitely fun to start during COVID as a faculty member. Prior to this, I was a K through six special educator, and general educator. Even a literacy interventionist for a bit. I just feel like, it depended on the week, and what my job title was, and as special educators, I feel like that's kind of the name of the game we are flexible, we do what needs to happen for our students.

I also am someone with a disability and so I know we'll talk about language a little bit later, but I experienced disability about ten years ago. And so, one thing that I think is important is, I was always seen as like, I embraced this mentality of like, oh, I'm helping others. I don't need accommodations. I don't need support. And, again, about ten years ago, life happened, this diagnosis, that diagnosis, whatever. And so I've had to kind of adjust and, like, view my change or like kind of process this change of, like, accepting help and needing help and like navigating that.

Jessica: And so I will say, in the last like 3 to 4 years, I've really started to embrace my identity as someone with a disability and, I would say around that time, too, I started to kind of really take ownership and say like, no, I'm disabled.

And again, I know we'll talk about the power of language in a little bit, but, I view it as a positive and it's part of my identity. And I share that with my students, and with anyone I work with.

I'm pretty open about it, because I think there's nothing to hide about it. Like I'm not ashamed of my disability at all. So what really drove me to inclusive education? Well, it really stems honestly from my childhood.

So I went to school in Texas, in the Houston area, like my K-through-12 schooling. And we didn't really have students with disabilities around. And so I know, some of this is shifting, but students, especially with the most extensive or complex support needs, they were in a totally different wing.

Like they were not allowed, quote-unquote, “allowed” to come out and be with anyone else without a disability. I think there was this fear that they may get us sick or like they can't handle it. And I know we still see that today with segregation, but, really just seeing students excluded in schools.

And then I think what really hit home of why we need inclusive education for me was in middle school. My mom was a special education paraprofessional and I started volunteering with Special Olympics because several of her students were participating in Special Olympics.

And so all of a sudden, I realized that there were students that I had gone to school with, since I was like in kindergarten in first grade that I had never known. And they literally lived in my neighborhood. Right. And I had no idea they were the same grade as me. And so that was really kind of eye-opening to me of like, wow, this is problematic. Even as a 12, 13-year-old, I recognized that like, this should not be happening.

Jessica: And so what I started to look for colleges. I wanted to look at both special education and general education and specifically elementary education. Because of those experiences, because of realizing that this is still happening, students are still segregated.

And, so I ended up going to the University of New Mexico for their dual license program. So I was able to graduate with a general education and special education license to teach. And so I really enjoyed that because it focused in on inclusive education, and I felt like I could kind of bridge that gap between these like often like siloed communities in schools. And so I thought that I could help bridge that gap.

Then of course, then I got into schools as a new teacher and realized, wow, this is still happening. It's not just from when I was a kid in the nineties, like the early nineties, late eighties, and all that. This is still happening in 2009 is when I started teaching.

So yeah, I just see the value in it. I've advocated for that with my students with disabilities as a teacher, and so I just really am very passionate about inclusive education.

All right. There's a very long answer to that.

Arthur: It was great, though. And it showed that I always say it's so interesting how kids, children understand things a lot better sometimes than adults do.

As a child, you realized like, hey, wait, this is a whole group of people that live in my neighborhood that are the same age as me, that I don't know that I've ever seen before.

And like, what is that about? Like you had questions about that and that was that. When you said that, I was like, wow, like that's really wild to think about. And but the fact that you noticed it as a child yourself to say, like, wait, something, something's not right here.

What is and how can we fix it? And how can you be a part of making that change is really impressive to have those thoughts as a child and to really recognize that, again, something that's just not right about this. There's something that needs to be done.

Arthur: Yeah. So, yeah, I'm glad that you did give that answer and shared so much of your own story because I think, in sharing these stories, I say all the time, but the guests that we have, your passion, and your dedication to making the world more inclusive in education it really shows. And then, when you tell your story, it's like, okay, because you've been thinking about this for a very long time.

Yeah. So, like, it makes sense.

Jessica: Yeah, absolutely.

Arthur: It’s not just something that just popped into your head like, Oh, I want to do this. And it's like, no, you really notice the need for the change and, then you made it your career path and you're doing great things.

Jessica: I mean, I try.

Arthur: Yes, As we all do. Right?

Jessica: Yes. We're all giving our best

Arthur: So this season on the podcast, we're focusing on those in school leadership positions and how they can impact and influence the inclusive school environment.

So as a professor who is educating the next generation of educators, what role and influence do you feel higher education professionals have on the future of inclusive education?

Jessica: Oh, I feel like that's a huge question.

And. I really view it as like, wait let me backup. In society, we obviously know what we want, so many of us are, fighting for inclusive education, inclusive housing, inclusive environment and communities, And yet we still are having this fight.

And so one of the things that I think about as a professor is that we have that impact on future educators that are going out in the field and, can ultimately be the people that advocate for inclusive education for students with disabilities, and so I really view it as like we're setting the tone in higher ed.

So what we allow students to and when I say students, I mean university students, but what we allow university students to submit for their classes and how they talk about students with disabilities and how we perpetuate or address language on how we talk about students with disabilities. It really sets the tone for their career.

So if we as higher ed professionals, if we don't kind of set that tone, set that expectation and kind of address that, they're going to hear some negative remarks in schools. They're going to hear some outdated language. They're going to hear and see these things. But here's how they can advocate for it and here's how they can change.

Jessica: I really feel like what we do is so important because not only do we have the ability to change the future for a group of students like K through 12 students each year. But really, when I'm preparing pre-service educators, if I'm like, for example, I'm working with between my two undergrad classes, I have, I think like 45 to 50 students.

And so I'm ultimately impacting 50 times 25 students that they'll have each year, and so what we do here in higher ed, I think, is so important. Like, we're the starting point and we have to kind of open their eyes to the value of inclusive education and really being advocates for students with disabilities.

I also think, and most, many programs for pre-service teachers might only have one class on special education. And so, especially if they're general educators, they might have that one class. And so when we think about it, we have this one opportunity, we have this 15 weeks, this one semester to make this change, in how they think. Because, again, I can't control what other professors are teaching, not only at my institution, but all institutions across the U.S. like I don't have that ability. I would love to have a magic wand and just say like teach inclusive education and teach the power of language. Teach this. But I don’t, right?

Jessica: So I really think that we are the starting point where we set the tone for how they talk about students because we're not kind of fixing issues. We're like teaching them from the ground up.

And so that's one thing that keeps me in higher education because, yes, I do miss being in the classroom. Even with all the chaos the last few years, there are times I'm like, I wish I could just go back in the classroom. I really miss it. I miss working with the kids and I love it. And then I think about like, okay, but I’m not only impacting one class over this year like I'm impacting hundreds if not thousands of students every year because I'm teaching their future teachers.

Arthur: Wow, that's so true. Like you said, for however many students they're teaching each year, you have an impact because they're taking the knowledge that you gave them in their courses and they're taking it with them into their professions.

And again, you said, it's very interesting that you said they may only have one special education course, and they're expected to learn so much in just a 15-week semester when there's so much information there.

And you can hope that students will continue to learn on their own and educate themselves about certain topics and look more, to look deeper into certain things that are covered in the class. But just the fact that they only are required to take one course in special education, that’s a lot to take in. And as I said, in just one short semester, 15 weeks go by very quickly.

Jessica: Well, there are also programs that don't even have a whole class. My previous institution, it was just a few weeks of one class.

And so, imagine, we as professors, have to make such a big impact when we only have one class or only one part of a class. Like it's so important.

And so I just really feel like if we want to make this change. We talk about how many students are excluded. I know we had talked about this on our like before our meeting of how many students are still excluded and segregated from their peers without disabilities, and so if we want to change that, we have to kind of get this new generation that are going out into the field and really make this impact and really be strong advocates.

Arthur: Yes, for sure. And again, I just kind of like visualize what you were saying, you’re teaching this group of current university students, but then they'll go on to teach for years.

I know teachers that have been teaching for 30 and 40 years. So just to think of that greater impact that you have on, students and it's really it made me think of myself honestly because I also have a disability, and the children that I interact with, with my friends who have

kids and my niece and my nephew and just people that I encounter out in the world and the experience that I can give them of learning about my disability and what it means and why I have to use a wheelchair or why I have to use crutches.

Arthur: It can make them a kind person to someone they meet in school who has a disability and, not think that it's strange that they have to use crutches and they can think of me and say, it's not a problem. It's not a big deal that Johnny, in my class, has to use a wheelchair. So that it's all in the interactions that we have with people that can really have an impact on the broader community around us, and, beyond what we can even reach ourselves as just one person.

Jessica: Yeah. I also think about like, obviously, like I went to school, this wasn't that long ago, right? Like, well, maybe I'm a little bit old, but, the early nineties, like I was in schools and so like I think about like that's really not that long ago and that's still happening, right? And so we still know what's happening by data, and think about people who went to school 30, 40, 50, 60 years ago.

They had no experience with people with disabilities. And so despite their age, like if they just happened to be in a segregated kind of school community or state that has a lot of segregation of students with disabilities and like, they really don't have this exposure, this knowledge, this firsthand experience about people with disabilities or they don't know they have experience because disabilities aren't all visible. l present as someone without a disability, which I understand and recognize the privilege of having invisible disabilities, but that's not the case for everyone.

And so I think we have to also recognize and kind of have that conversation with people. Disability doesn't have a look, right? Disability can be any person.

Arthur: True that is so true and so, so important to bring up.

And something else that you brought up which leads into my next question is language. And I know I have been a part of many conversations, especially in the last few years. A lot of conversations have taken place online.

I was a part of an app called Clubhouse, which is just a big, it's voice chat. So you go into the chat rooms, but everybody kind of talks, they talk, they don't type anything. So it's actually you're hearing people's voices that really picked up over the last few years with the pandemic. So there have been a lot of conversations on that app and other places, and in the news, as it relates to language that is used, as the language relates to those who have disabilities.

A few of the conversations that I can think of that have been fairly popular are; not saying the R-word and not using euphemisms like differently-abled or handi-capable. And a big one is the person-first versus identity-first language. So those are all conversations that I've seen and have had with certain people.

So can you talk about the importance of using appropriate language and the effect it can have when we're talking about people with disabilities?

Jessica: Yeah, I think this is so important. And I think first we have to really recognize that diversity is a natural form of human diversity.

And I think when we recognize that, we have to then kind of normalize the conversation around disability. So I think for so long it's sort of like disability is like, oh, they're unique, they're special, they're this, they're that, right, because they're not human-like. And so we might think of them as like babies like perpetual babies. We are created to protect them and this and that.

And so I think we've kind of come a long way, but we still have a long way to go because, again, when we recognize it's a normal part of a normal form of human diversity, we kind of recognize that people's disabilities are human, right? They're not like this other.

And so, you know, I also think that disability is not a bad word. And I think so many people often think, oh, I can't say disability.

I'm going to say like, oh, they're handi-capable instead. And it kind of that I think a lot of people, including myself, we really push back against that because it's like disability is not a bad word. You can say it, it's not something to be ashamed of.

I know some different cultures have different views on it, but I think, it's important. Like I said, it's part of human diversity. People with disabilities have existed since the beginning of time. And guess what?

They're going to keep existing, Right? Like they're not going to disappear tomorrow. Right?

Arthur: Yeah. We're not going anywhere. We're here stay!

Jessica: We’re here to stay! And, let's also think about it throughout someone's lifetime, they have a statistically good chance of experiencing disability at some point in their life.

And so I, I also think, like one other thing that I think about is we have to kind of push back on these euphemisms and also like SPED like I think that's a big one. Oh, they're a SPED student.

They're in SPED. A lot of people in the community really push back on that and even go as far as to say it's a slur. And personally, I agree.

But I think kind of one of the big debates that I'm sure you've seen on Clubhouse and other apps is this idea of identity-first versus person-first.

And so, for a long time, we had identity first, but it was seen as like this othering thing, like, oh, it's the disabled, right? Like this other group of people, they're not included, and not us. And then. And then this like person-first language came around like, oh, I'm a person with a disability, it's a person with Down's syndrome. And that's great, right? It respects the human first as it's just the disability that is just part of them.

Jessica: And then I think in the last few years, this really there's really been a push with some people, again, not all like the disability community, not a monolith. And so there's really been this like push of like no, it's part of my identity is who I am. Personally, I've come to embrace it about myself that I'm disabled.

And again, I know not everyone uses that. And so I think it goes back into like choice, so there's not this like hard and fast rule.It's like, Oh, you have to do this or you have to do that because again, we're not a monolith.

So, we have to respect what each person wants. But I do think it's important to note that, like, we have some people that don't yet, they’re not able to yet communicate their needs. They might not even know that they have a disability.

If you have a first grader, they might not understand or yet be told that they have a disability, And so they haven't had that chance to kind of identify and look at their own identity and see what do I want to be called. How do I want to think about this, and recognize this within myself?

And so. I think it's just something to ask. I know a lot of my university students are like, oh, I would just want a hard and fast rule. And so I always tell them, to start with the person first.

If the person doesn't want that, they'll tell you or you can ask. But especially when you're working with young kids, like you should start with person-first. But again, just ask I think of it as it should just be a question, like pronouns, like what are your pronouns?

Jessica: If someone says they have a disability, then just ask them like, how do you like to refer to yourself, person-first or identity-first? But I, really, this is such a huge topic in the field, and

I think. Yes, it's very important.

Jessica: One thing I will say is that I think how we talk about people, disabilities or disabled people is more important. So are we using deficit-based language? Or are we using strengths-based language?

So I think about the school setting like a K through 12. It's like, I’m sure many of us have looked at IEPs and said like, wow, I just read this entire document and there's not a single thing that they can do in according to this IEP.

It’s all what they can't do. They can't do this, they can't do that. They can't do this. And so, yes, language not only relates to this, like identity first and person first, but also how we talk about people, and so we really have to be respectful. And again, it's part of human diversity.

Jessica: So people with disabilities are people. It seems like a simple concept and yet we still see that, right? We still see people saying like, oh, it’s oh they are just differently abled and it’s like no! Stop with the euphemisms!

Arthur: Like you said, it's part of diversity. And as the saying goes, I'm sure I've used it on this podcast and I know I heard it many times before. If you met one person with a disability, you've met one person with a disability.

So where you prefer identity-first language, I might prefer a person-first language. And that's okay. And I love how you said, you know, the conversations and how we're talking about those who have disabilities and is it a strength or a deficit-based approach.

And that really, truly makes a big difference.

Jessica: Yeah. Well, I think that can also frame so for me I just started kind of using identity-first language. If you were to ask me three or four years ago, I didn't.

So of course, that can evolve over time too. But there are people that I've worked with or talked with or whatever over the years, and they used really harmful language about people with disabilities. And so like with them, I might not use identify with them because you really don't understand that you are really thinking that disability is bad and it's only who I am and, that it makes me be seen as different. And so that's something else to consider too, is like where is the respect? Like, do they understand that disability is just a natural form of diversity, just like anything else? And, that can impact how we talk about our own identity and how we think about students, too, or how they think about students.

Arthur: Thank you for listening to this episode of the Inclusion Think Tank Podcast brought to you by New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education. This concludes part 1 of my conversation with Dr. Jessica McQueston. Join us again next time when we continue our conversation to discuss how an inclusive curriculum can be beneficial to all students. Be sure to subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, and to follow us on social media @NJCIE, until next time

On today's episode, we welcome our guest, Nicole Eredics. During our conversation, we discuss how a truly inclusive school environment goes beyond the regular hours of the school day, and the importance of training educators on what inclusion looks like in real life.

Arthur: This is the Inclusion Think Tank Podcast brought to you by New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education, NJCIE, where we talk about inclusive education, why it works and how to make it happen.

On today’s episode we welcome our guest Nicole Eredics. Nicole is an educator and an author who advocates for inclusion of students with disabilities in the general education classroom. During our conversation today, we discuss why it is important that the school culture reflect an inclusive culture.

Arthur: I would like to welcome everyone back to a brand new episode of the Inclusion Think Tank Podcast brought to you by the New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education.

I'm your host, Arthur Aston, and I am happy to welcome my guest to today's episode, Nicole Eredics. So Nicole, thank you so much for joining me today. I'm very happy to have you as a guest and to meet you virtually.

Nicole: Thank you so much for having me. I am thrilled to be here and excited to talk about inclusion.

Arthur: Yes. Yes. So, I start off the podcast with every guest asking a version of this first question. So can you share with us who is Nicole Eredics, and can you share just some parts of your journey of becoming an educator and how you became interested in the world of inclusive education?

Nicole: Of course, yes. One of my favorite topics to talk about. Not me, I mean, inclusion. Yeah. Born and raised in Canada. I'm a Canadian transplant. I live here in the U.S. now and part of living in Canada for much of my earlier years. I went to university there and I was trained as an inclusion teacher at the time, we didn't really call it inclusion teacher.

You were just a general education teacher. But our province, which is the province, British Columbia, had mandated that all of our schools become fully inclusive. So they took away the segregated classrooms and, created classrooms with children of all abilities.

And so, my teacher training reflected that shift to fully inclusive classrooms. So that's all I've ever known as an educator. And I did that, I was in the elementary system as an inclusion teacher, which is basically a gen-ed teacher with students of all abilities.

Nicole: I Did that for, oh gosh, about 15 years and found myself in Southern California one day and noticed that things were a little different. And so, I decided to put my time and energy into just raising awareness for ways in which education can be done differently and, serve the needs of our students, especially those with disabilities.

So and aside from that, in addition to that, I've got a master's in Special Education, and wrote a book a couple of years ago. So been busy. Yeah, but I do teacher training and workshops and all kinds of stuff. So that's kind of a snapshot, of who I am and what I do.

Arthur: That’s great. I always love hearing people's stories and to see how they arrive to where they are, and it's great that you said it's, inclusion is all that you really have known, and yet it was adapted, and adopted in Canada at such an early time. So that's really always, always great to hear.

So I did some research about you and looked up some things and some podcasts and things that you have been on and discussions that you have had, and I came across one of your posts that you wrote on your blog that was called How to Include Students with Disabilities by Modifying Curriculum in Three Easy Steps.

Arthur: I was drawn to the third step, which was to use instructional strategies such as deletions, substitutions, and additions to make necessary changes to the lesson. Can you share with us a little bit more about that, and give some examples of how this can be done in the real world?

Nicole: Definitely. Yeah. Well, first of all, the purpose of doing that really is to, of course, provide our students with the same content from the general education curriculum, which is something that we do in our schools. We're providing quality general education curriculum to all of our students, and so some of our students, of course, are not yet working at the grade level that that that their peers are working.

So we want to provide them with an opportunity to experience and to access and achieve that material, but at their level, they’re present or their level of performance or ability. And so what we can do is we can look at the content and the curriculum for that particular grade level or age level and then manipulate it to make it so that it's more appropriate for a student who is working at a different level of ability.

And so you can do that by, changing the educational outcomes of the activities. So for example, if it's a complex topic like plant biology, you can break that down and make it more appropriate by having this student grow plants, or observe plant growth, or take care of plants. So you're still working within that theme of plants. You're still addressing that content, but you're making it suitable for the student who is as I mentioned, working at a different level.

Nicole: You can so you can simplify the content. You can change those educational outcomes. So if there's a math question and the idea is to solve this complex algorithm, then you can take that and change the type of algorithm that it is, perhaps maybe using the same numbers or maybe using, an operation there or breaking it down into steps and outlining the steps for the student to solve the algorithm.

So it's essentially just taking, what is happening in the classroom and making some adjustments to it, deleting the material that isn't necessary, prioritizing content that we want our students to know and to be able to have and achieve.

So that's essentially the approach a very, broad approach to modifying curriculum. And it's just going in with that premise of, okay, what am I going to do to make this accessible and achievable for my student?

Arthur: I really love that because I, know for myself, growing up a subject like math was not my thing. So to have that type of adaptation to the lesson in such a way that I would be able to learn was always helpful.

And, or even just something just as simple as having another classmate explain something to me versus having the teacher explain it, all of a sudden it was like, oh, that's what it means. It was really much easier to see it in a different way.

And I love the example you used of the plant. If you're having a subject, dedicated to plants, actually having a person go through that process of planting a seed, and watching it grow and learning that way.

I could see how that would be very beneficial for somebody who learns in that specific style.

Nicole: Exactly. Yeah, or it was learning differently or has different educational outcomes that are more meaningful to them.

More appropriate to them, because, it's about taking, like you said, material and making it not just being able to access it and help the student learn, but also to help the student understand, right? And be able to think deeply about it and apply it so there's more to learning than just being able to read the material. You need to understand it as well.

Arthur: Yes, and like you said, apply it. That is so important. I'm so glad you brought that up. I love that you used that word.

So this season, it's our second season of the podcast. And this season we are focusing on school leadership and how those in-school leadership positions can have an impact on inclusive schools, and the environment in inclusive schools.

As you mentioned, you did write a book that is titled Inclusion and Action Practical Strategies to Modify Your Curriculum. And as part of that book, you discuss the role that school leadership and staff have in making schools inclusive.

Arthur: So, that is why you are on this episode with us today. So can you share a little bit more of that with us and how you feel that school leadership and staff, have an impact on the inclusive school environment?

Nicole: Of course. And first of all, congratulations on this being the second year of the podcast. I'm a big fan of podcasts.

Arthur: Yay! Thank you.

Nicole: That’s wonderful, such a great way to share information.

So school leadership is so essential because really, I mean, they set the tone. They're the ones that are the model or the face of the school community. And so, in my experience with school leadership in inclusive schools, there's a lot of conversation and a lot of behavior that reflects inclusion.

And I can remember, so many times our principal during staff meetings, and announcements, just reiterating the fact that these are all of our students. We're here to educate all of them, to provide them with a meaningful curriculum. How are we going to do that? We're going to ensure that they're involved in all school activities.

If a student can't, for example, attend a field trip due to mobility issues, how can we facilitate that? Right? Like, how can we make that happen? Or what can we do to include the students so that every student can participate in that activity? Events, all of our dances, graduation ceremonies, parent-teacher things going on in the school, and student leadership opportunities. It included all of our students, not just a certain population.

Nicole: A lot of those activities, like extracurricular clubs, and sports happened at lunchtime, not after school, because, we have a lot of students who use buses and that would eliminate their opportunity to participate if it was held after school. So we had those activities at lunchtime.

So scheduling was a big thing. What do our schedules look like in our school? And then of course, the resources to support that. How do we allocate staff and personnel? Because, inclusion isn't something that happens in isolation. It just doesn't happen in one classroom, and it's not the sole responsibility of the general education teacher. It takes a partnership with specialists, whether they're education specialists or, physical therapy or speech-language professionals. A teacher needs to have that collaboration in order to help our students succeed.

Nicole: So, the leadership is so essential because really, as I mentioned, they're providing that message. They're providing opportunities for us to follow through on what we say we are and what our purpose is as leaders and as education staff and then the resources.

So it's definitely it's not a one-time thing. It's not a one time. Like we're an inclusive school and that's it. No, it's a day-in and day-out, consistent way of being and behaving.

It's and it's so essential. And, the impact that it has on the school community is phenomenal.

Arthur: Yes. And I like that you said consistent. That's the key. It's not a one-time thing. It's something that is consistent and it goes on and it continues.

And starting at the top with the leadership is so important, and I love that you mentioned the dances and after-school activities and things like that because that's still part of the school environment and the school culture, but it might be outside of the regular school day hours of, the 7 a.m. to 3, or whatever the hours are at a particular school, and it's still part of that school environment, the school culture.

So those are areas that need attention as well. To be mindful of the inclusion aspects of those activities. So I'm glad that you brought that up.

Nicole: Yeah, and one other quick thing I want to mention, too, and I'll speak more about it in a minute, but also providing your staff with training. Making sure that they have the skills necessary and the knowledge necessary in order to facilitate and be inclusive because that training is a big issue and a big barrier to inclusive schools, the lack of training.

Yeah, that's definitely a priority in an inclusive school, is to have good training.

Arthur: Yeah. And as you mentioned, you do some training and seminars and workshops and things. So in your work, what is the most common challenge that you find teachers have with include with including students with disabilities?

Nicole: Lack of knowledge. I think a lot of times there are just some misunderstandings and there are some concerns and fear, but a lot of that boils down to just not knowing how that or what inclusion looks like in real life.

What does that mean? What is the impact on my schedule or my daily routine when in fact, inclusion, for the most part, is good teaching, it's just good teaching. And so teachers out there are already doing a fantastic job and they're already providing many opportunities for all students to participate.

But, there is that extra step that's required. There is just becoming more knowledgeable about learning differences and learning needs. So I really think that that's definitely one of the biggest issues that are the biggest barriers that I see is just having that, I don't want to say same mindset, just having that perception or misconception that inclusion is hard and we need to break that down and provide our teachers with the resources and the knowledge and the skills in order to not have it be perceived as being hard.

Arthur: Yes. Yeah. And I think it goes back to what you were saying about it being consistent. And, that can be very helpful with doing it more and engaging, in the conversations and to learn about what inclusion actually is.

Can be very helpful to take away that stigma and the misconception of it, of it being difficult and being hard to have inclusion in our schools.

Nicole: Yeah, it's actually a very collaborative experience, very rewarding as a professional, to be able to have the supports in the school for your students.

I could go on, but in the interest of time, I'll wrap that answer up. It’s a big hot topic for me.

Arthur:  It is, and it really does need to be discussed and addressed.

So I'm glad that you brought it up and that you are bringing that to this conversation.

Arthur:  So and also, another work-related question for you. So in your work that you do, have you found an example of student inclusion that was done well where the student had more significant support needs?

Nicole: Well, in honesty, I've had a lot of those situations and seen a lot of that because that happened routinely in my previous job as a teacher. But, one situation that stands out for me is probably in the early years of teaching, one of the students in my class had mobility challenges and was working below grade level, and had some expressive and receptive communication challenges.

And so, we really worked hard to ensure that she was able to participate in various activities, and we made sure that she did have a para-educator, of course, with her to help facilitate inclusion. But we made sure that the students were aware of her, not, everything about her, but just aware of her. Certain ways of expressing herself. One of them was that when she wanted our attention, she liked to hit the side of her wheelchair.

And so, once we explained that to the students, rather than seeing it as a disruption, they saw it as a form of communication. And so, they would alert me, Mrs. Eredics, so-and-so wants your attention.

Right? So it didn't become a negative event in the classroom. We also ensured that she could access all of our class activities and field trips. I spoke about that earlier.

Nicole: On one field trip, we were going to walk to a certain location and it wasn't wheelchair friendly, the pathway. But, we ensured that she got there and we had some peers accompany her. So she chose her friends. They went by vehicle and met us there.

So it was just, we really worked hard to ensure that she didn't stand out in a way that was, ‘here we have to help her', it was a very natural experience.

We tried to make it as natural as possible, essentially. And in her work was modified, of course, and her para-educator was just fantastic. She was very well trained. And, she and I constantly collaborated in order to provide the student with opportunities and meaningful work and experiences in our classroom.

Yeah. And yes, she was one of many different students that I worked with over the years. But she stands out just because, every child has their own uniqueness and ways of communicating, ways of moving, and ways of working.

Nicole: And, once we understand and we're familiar and we're aware of what our differences are in our uniquenesses are, then, it's no big deal. It's like, it is what it is, and that's how we're going to work with it. So yeah, that's definitely an example that stands out for me.

Arthur: Yes, I truly enjoy having these conversations because it always brings up memories of my own story and my own life of living as someone with a disability. And a few months ago I was in a store and I came around the corner, I was in my wheelchair, and I came around the corner going down an aisle, and a little girl, she was maybe four years old. She jumped back and said, Oh, that's so scary.

And her mom immediately got down on the floor on her knees in front of her daughter, and she said, no, it is not scary. She said that is how he moves. That's how he gets around you. Your legs are strong.

His legs are not strong like yours. So he has to use that, that's the way he walks. He has to use that chair. It just happens to have wheels. As soon as she said that, the little girl said. ‘Oh. Okay.’

Arthur: And when you were talking about how you explained to the students the student hitting the side of her chair as a way of communicating, then all of a sudden, the students starts saying, oh, they're hitting their chair, they want your attention. They need something.

Nicole: Exactly.

Arthur: It’s so amazing how kids just get it right away.

Nicole: They’re fine with it, because we all have our uniqueness.

And I mean, I had students, I can’t tell you, I probably had more students in my classrooms over the years who were”neurotypical” in general education, but they were leaning back on their chairs, tapping on their desks, kicking their, constantly shuffling their feet.

I mean, people, we’re human, right? And they all express and move and communicate in various ways. And it's just becoming exposed to that and being comfortable with the various differences that we have. And how do we do that?

Well,  we interact. We engage with people and try to understand what it is, and what the root of it is. And even if you're younger, we're not going to understand that, but at least have people around us, people around them to support that understanding of the differences that we all have.

Arthur: So it's really important that we do talk about these things with the students in the classroom and in the school and just help break down all those stereotypes and stigmas and misconceptions about inclusion and disabilities in general.

Nicole: Exactly. Yep. And sometimes it's just a matter of giving children those actionable steps because they just don't know. Right. They haven't been exposed or they haven't interacted with anybody who has different needs, and so it's just giving them that language and those actions and behaviors and modeling for them.

Arthur: So I have one final question for you, and that is, we sometimes see that parents of children with disabilities, especially those with autism, appear to be more reluctant or adverse to inclusive education settings.

How is it that we can reach those parents who feel that a segregated placement has more benefits than an inclusive one?

Nicole: That is such a great question and it's a big one to tackle just simply because a lot of that is fear. Not knowing how their child will be supported in a general education setting, especially depending on the child's needs, sensory needs, mobility needs, and emotional needs. So having conversations, modeling what that would look like, ensuring that teachers have training, the appropriate training. Again, this goes back to creating an environment that is safe and is educational, obviously.

And I mean, outside of that, it's just really having discussion and showing examples and providing resources, providing staffing. And those are some big asks for both teachers and parents that requires an investment of time and energy.

It's not a quick fix, but as parents, I think we just really want to make sure that our kids are safe and learning. And if if schools can. Provide that. Environment for our kids. Especially students with autism, then I think you might see more parents leaning towards inclusive models.

The other piece of that, too, is having somebody having a parent or a family who has experienced successful inclusion and having them speak to the experience. Right? So they're being they're the ones that are validating and being kind of a testament to yeah when it's done properly, it can be done really well.

Nicole: So having a parent and a child speak to that experience, that successful experience that they've had, having the opportunity to see classrooms, the inclusive classrooms in action would be another one, encouraging conversations between the teacher and the parents setting up means of communication and sharing that that's going to be in place.

So lots of planning and lots of preparation, lots of reassurance, I think is really kind of the first step. And it's not an overly tangible one at that point, but once I think educators and schools understand the initial fears and concerns, they can start to have those conversations on how to address them and what the school can do to provide those supports and ensure that, the students are going to have a successful, safe experience in the general education classroom.

And I think it's huge when they look at that flip side, and I’m not speaking to every segregated special education classroom, but I think it's really important to mention that in our segregated special education classrooms, you've got a lot of students in there for the most part, with a wide range of needs, and several adults to support them. Those classrooms can be very overwhelming themselves in that aspect.

So, the general education classroom, Yes, there are a lot of kids in there as well, but it’s just it's a different type of environment. It doesn't mean it's bad, it’s just it offers a different level of activity and a different environment that may not necessarily be bad.

Nicole: So that's kind of my broad answer. It's a very difficult question because I think everyone brings their own experiences to the table and what they've heard and what they've seen. And it's hard, it’s a process to change attitudes and mindsets and definitely with parents to kind of ease their minds and. So yeah, that's my very long answer to your short question.

Arthur: Well, I appreciated that answer and I appreciated t this conversation with you. And thank you so much for taking the time to join me to have this conversation today. It was really, really great to speak with you and to learn about you and hear your background and all the great work that you're doing and the changes that that you've seen and that are being made through the work that we are all doing to bring inclusive education to the world at large.

Nicole: And having these conversations are so important and I appreciate the opportunity to be here and speak with you and a pleasure to meet you, and I'm honored to be on the podcast. So thank you.

Arthur: Yes, and thank you as well, Nicole, and you have a great day and we will be in touch.

On today's episode, we welcome our guest, Doctor Jennifer Spencer-Iiams. During our conversation, we discuss Leading for All: How to Create Truly Inclusive and Excellent Schools, a book she co-wrote with Josh Flosi, and why it is important for everyone at all levels in the school district, including the students, to be part of the inclusive education initiatives.

Arthur: This is the Inclusion Think Tank podcast brought to you by New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education, NJCIE, where we talk about inclusive education, why it works, and how to make it happen. On today's episode, we welcome our guest, Doctor Jennifer Spencer-Iiams.

During our conversation, we discuss Leading for All: How to Create Truly Inclusive and Excellent Schools, a book she co-wrote with Josh Flosi, and why it is important for everyone at all levels in the school district, including the students, to be part of the inclusive education initiatives.

Arthur: So I would like to welcome everyone back to another episode of the Inclusion Think Tank podcast presented by the New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education. I'm your host, Arthur Aston, and I am joined today by my guest Jennifer Spencer-Iiams. And thank you so much for joining me today. Jennifer, it's great to see you again virtually. 

Jennifer: It's great to see you as well. Arthur, thanks so much. 

Arthur: Yes. Yeah. So you and I, we met in person over the summer when you were here in New Jersey doing a presentation during our summer conference for the New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education, and I had the honor of sitting in on both of your sessions for that conference and learned so much. So I'm really excited for you to be a guest on the podcast today and to share your story with everyone.

Jennifer: Well, it was so much fun for me to get to actually trek back to New Jersey. I had the opportunity to speak with folks right in the height of COVID as a plenary speaker, but it was virtual, and the summer was so much more fun to be there in person.

I got to meet some of my own heroes and the work of inclusion there and get to know some new people who were new to me, such as yourself, and just to share that common vision of all students being included and successful and having lots of belonging. So it was really a pleasure. 

Arthur: Yes. Yeah, it was. That was a fun, fun day. And, you know, it's great to meet you and so many other people and to learn all about your journey and your story.

So thank you again for joining us. And we can get started and into the first question, which is, can you tell us about yourself? Can you tell us who you are and what you do? And I like to ask people to tell us something fun that they like to do in their free time, which nobody seems to have much of. 

Jennifer: Well, that's true in education. I think free time is quite limited. But I live here in the Pacific Northwest in the Willamette Valley, which is quite famous for its local wines, Pinot Noir in particular.

So that's a fun thing I like to do. I like to visit local wineries sometimes on the weekend and get to know the people who work there and their passion for cultivation and their attention to detail. And yeah, it's just interesting, their connection with the land and I don't like to drink wine if I don't know who made it. So it's a fun way to connect and really hear the stories of folk. So that's my little fun connection there.

Arthur:  That's great. And for your profession, you are the assistant superintendent for school districts there.

Jennifer: Yeah, right now I have the pleasure of being assistant superintendent for the West Linn-Wilsonville School District, which is on the south side of the Portland metro area. So most people around the country will know where Portland is, and it's one of the medium-sized districts on the south end of that metro area.

And I've been there for 11 years and it's a terrific place to be a wonderful community. And it's been quite a journey to land in that district. But that's where I am now. And I get to support our high schools, support our student services, lots of amazing things that are happening right now in our school district. 

Arthur: That's great. again, I sat in both of your sessions during that conference and just hearing all of the great work that you all are doing there is really impressive. And I always bring it up in the podcast, growing up with a disability myself to see the way that education has changed in such a positive direction for those living with disabilities. Those young people living with disabilities is really encouraging to see, and it really does make me happy too, to know that these changes are being made. And, it's just really rewarding to be a part of, you know, just hosting a podcast and sharing people's experiences and stories.

So it's great to know that you're doing that work out there in the Portland area. And I went there once and it was great. It was amazing. I can't wait to get back out there sometime soon.

Jennifer: We would love you to come. We'd love to host you.  I think I appreciate you sharing a little bit about your story, your experience. And I think, you know, when I was going to school a million years ago, similarly, I had a couple of experiences around how we include or exclude students with disabilities. We had, I can remember in kindergarten, a student with some physical disabilities and differences being part of our class right from the beginning and how important that was and how it was just not ever questioned in terms of the work there.

And yet at the same time, there was a separate building with some students with intellectual and other sorts of disabilities where they weren't even in the school. And so I remember that and I remember the difference of what it's like to grow up with what is just assumed to be who belongs and what are the barriers that we put up or the beliefs that allow us to still have some students who ‘don't belong’ in many school districts? 

So I think those early experiences that we have can impact us to want to push for change. But it's also one of the things that keeps perpetuating segregated schooling.

As people grew up with it that way, they assume that's the way it is. And so trying to interrupt that generational way that students experience school is a big part of this work. 

Arthur: Yes, that is so important. What you just said, that our experiences can take us in one direction or the other. It can lead us to continue to leave things the way they are, because that's what people are used to. It seems to work. So that's what we will stick with. Or it can also draw attention to, like you said, who belongs and who you know ‘doesn't belong.’ Or that's how they would like you to view that and make you want to make a change in that in that way.

So that was there when you said that? I was like, ‘oh, my goodness. Wow!” 

Arthur: So our next question is about a book that you recently co-wrote with Josh Flossie called “Leading for All How to Create Truly Inclusive and Excellent Schools.”

The book focuses on the why, the how and what of inclusion. And in that book, you share components of inclusive and equitable learning communities. Can you share with us just two of those components of the inclusive and equitable learning communities?

Jennifer: Absolutely. And I will take a moment and just give a shout out to my co-author, Josh. Josh is currently in Tanzania working at an international school and he is leading the work for inclusion there. International schools have not always been inclusive of students who experience disability and he is really doing the work.

He recently spoke at a conference in Dubai for Inclusive Education, so it's just exciting to see how when you really see the importance of this work and the different ways that we're all working together to create change.

So that's a little shout out to Josh there. And Josh and I worked closely together here in the West Linn-Wilsonville school district. And as we made change and started saying every student should be at their neighborhood school, we shouldn't have any self-contained classrooms at their neighborhood school.

Every student should experience belonging and acceptance in the general ed classroom, and with the IEP process, some students can have some differing levels of support or schedules or things, whatever it is they need. We can continue to individualize as students need those things, while at the same time creating general education environments that more students' needs are met in and without specialized accommodations or schedules or things like that. 

Jennifer: So it's kind of a both-and there, and we started making the shift without necessarily having a clear framework that we were living into and quickly realized as we want this to be long-term, sustainable, and as we bring new teachers into the work, how do we kind of centralize the main things to be thinking about in every classroom so that every classroom is a place where all students can belong? And that's how we came up with our seven components of inclusive and equitable learning communities.

Folks that look at that will say, maybe say, they will likely recognize a lot of the principles in there. I say there's nothing there's no new rocket science in there, but it's how do we put things together and use a framework so that we essentialize within our district and have a common vocabulary to think about what all students need. 

Jennifer: And you've asked me to highlight just two of them. I will say they all work together. You can't just do part of it and you need to work all together. But one of them I'm going to highlight one on rituals, routines, and recognition.

We just actually did some learning walks last week where we were in and out of classrooms. And one of the things we were looking at was the presence of routines, rituals, and recognition and how those can facilitate inclusion and student independence.

And it was quite powerful. We were in some third grade classrooms and seen some of the routines and rituals that were in place for literacy learning. It really allowed all students to engage because they know what to expect.

There's sort of a template of: this is the routine that we do. Everyone's doing that routine. And then within there, if you have a student who maybe experiences an intellectual developmental disability, you can build some things into that routine that allow access points.

So you're not reinventing the wheel every day, and so that the student knows what more to expect. It really helps staff approach this work of: how do I plan for all students with lots of variability around what students need each and every day?

Having routines that are familiar to students helps it be sustainable for the teachers and helps it be accessible for the students. So I think that's an incredibly important part of the work. 

Jennifer: The other one I would highlight is relationships with high expectations.

So one of the challenges of the old model, and I started out as a general education teacher. I worked as a special education teacher for a while in a self-contained classroom, and I always tried to be inclusive with my students, maybe mainstreaming, quote unquote, into a classroom for part of the day.

But the students knew that wasn't really their class, that the special ed classroom was their class. And so as we shift this thinking and we have students really experience that belonging in the general ed class, they may also still work with a special education teacher, or there may be a paraeducator who's providing some supports, or an occupational therapist who's coming in to provide some some instruction or thinking or adaptations as we go.

But, we have to really invest in that relationship with the classroom teacher and the student who experiences disability because that teacher is leading that classroom, and so we have to shift some of the things that we do to allow that teacher to build relationships and to hold those high expectations that this student can learn. The student can learn at high levels. And I'm never going to put a cap on what their experiences might be.

So I'll give you an example of this. A couple of years ago, when we were early in this journey where it was now, luckily we've been in this a while, so it's very expected and our teachers are all connected to this work in really deep ways.

Jennifer: But when we were early in this journey and we had a student who had some significant educational support needs and had some significant communication challenges, and we were having him in a fifth-grade classroom because he's a fifth grader and he's part of the fifth-grade class.

The fifth-grade teacher met with us and said, ‘I'm open to this, but I don't know what to do. I have never worked with a student like this before,’ and the way this student was, especially early on, where he was still getting used to the rituals and the routines in the classroom. The way he expressed himself was pretty different from other students, and it was not in this general ed teacher's experience to have worked with a student like this before. 

So one of the things we did was we got a substitute for that teacher. Because the teacher believed the paraeducator knew the student more than he did, which was probably true.

And so he just deferred to the parent educator on everything. And he hadn't developed a relationship with that student because he didn't know him. So we got a substitute and so just spent the day shadowing and getting to know this student.

It made such a difference. After that day, he greeted and connected with that student in new ways. He was not fearful of connecting with that student. He had some different ways of engaging. He had that ownership of this student is just as much a part of my class as everyone else, and I need some help from the learning specialist to continue to find ways for him to have access points to learning and shadow his learning. And so that partnership really flourished with that teacher and the special education teacher, the learning specialist. But what really shifted was the relationship with that general education teacher and that student and how it raised expectations for him.

And it changed the status in the classroom because now other students see that teacher connecting with that student as a human being instead of kind of being afraid or deferring. He really brought him into the classroom. So that's just one example around how we have to support and encourage relationships.

Jennifer: We all need that. We learn with people that we feel safe with, that we feel care about us and that believe in us. So every student needs that, and we need to empower our teachers to invest in those relationships and hold those high expectations for all students.

Arthur: That is so true. The relationships are so important. I shared on an earlier podcast: As adults, we can all think back to like those few teachers who really, took an interest in us and got to know us and understand us.

And for me, like, math wasn't my strong subject. And I can remember those math teachers that were like, “Okay, come in before class, stay after class. Like, we'll help you figure this out.” Like, we all have those teachers that we can remember from our childhood that really invested in us and got to know us and, really took the time to help us learn. 

Arthur: So thank you for sharing those two things and especially about the relationships and relationship building, because that is such a valuable component to making things work and inclusive education and just in education in general, I think. I appreciated that.

Arthur:  So our season for the podcast or I should say, our goal for the podcast this season is to highlight leadership roles. And as a leader in your district, what can you say that you found to be the most challenging with getting your district to being more inclusive?

Jennifer: I have to say it has been a challenging journey and the most rewarding thing I've ever done. School districts are giant cruise ships. You know, they are big organizations that have many parts and many people.

And it is hard to turn a cruise ship. Right. It takes planning. It takes all the equipment in the equipment room working the right way. It takes the people who are in the pilots and their captains of the ship moving things in the right way.

It just takes a lot of effort. And so. I know I have so many colleagues around that are in that work and sometimes can get frustrated when they aren't feeling the movement going fast enough.

And that's a good thing. We should be dissatisfied with schools that are not inclusive, and we need to recognize that it takes time, it takes effort, and be kind to ourselves as leaders as we do this work.

Jennifer: I think what's so incredibly important is that one person is not shifting that cruise ship.

It is an entire crew. So I have had the joy of getting to document our journey and to have sometimes been the face of some of the work. But it's not my work as a solo person out there kind of trying Don Quixote style to change things.

It has been absolutely teaming, teaming, teaming 100% of the time. So as a leader, you have to constantly be looking for how are you bringing folks in to the learning, helping everyone connect with their own why.  

Jennifer: Because the great thing is with trying to make change around inclusive education is educators all went into this work because they care about kids. They all went into this work because they want to make the world a better place. So when you can connect them with, ‘Oh, my goodness, did you know that there's 35-40 years of research around inclusive education?’

Did you know that it actually benefits the students who experience disabilities and the students who don't experience disabilities? Did you know? So when you connect people with that way of understanding and give them permission to try something differently, to change roles to sometimes shift a unit personnel and it most people I'm finding that people get excited we get on board.

Jennifer:  Our role as leaders to continue to highlight that continue to bring the celebrations forward help people develop that sense of collective efficacy, that we can change this because we are changing it.

So you can see those efforts. You see those efforts work and you reflect it back, which gets people more excited to keep on that change. It is challenging. You got to stay focused. You have to continue to be laser-like focused on the mission.

And there are many educators that will talk about things like initiative fatigue, like, oh, our district was committed to PBIS and now they're not, or we developed this new reading program and now we did it. And so there can be this sense of, Oh, I'll just stay in my classroom and wait this initiative out.

This, too, shall pass. It is critical that we don't think about inclusive education as an initiative or this new thing we're trying out. It has to be at the core of your district's mission as important as anything else that you are committed to.

As important as making sure all students are readers. Right. It has to be right there in the core. So I think the challenge is continuing to do that, continuing to bring folks into the understanding of why thinking about all the stakeholders that are involved.

Sometimes when people start this work, they're thinking about the special education teachers, huge stakeholders in this group, but not more important than the general education teachers. And what about the parents of students who experience disability that maybe in the past the IEP team has said it's best for this child to be in a self-contained classroom and now suddenly they're saying it's not! It’s best for this child to be included. So we can't be surprised that parents might say, wait a minute, so you're really changing what you thought. Yes, we are, based on everything we know. But equally important are parents of students who don't experience disability.

Jennifer: How are they being brought into this conversation about how this is a value add for their children? And I will tell you, I've had a couple of families that have reached out to me. We've had many families that have reached out to us of children who experience disability, who have moved to our district to make sure their children are included, which makes me both happy and sad. 

I'm so happy to welcome families, but also people should not have to move for their child to be included. Should not depend on your zip code. So that's another story, but we've also had some families that have moved here whose children don't experience disability, but they've moved here because we're inclusive. And that's a powerful statement. 

It's as families recognize the value of just embracing all students to think about all of us have strengths, all of us have things we're working on and learning, and we can do that work together. 

Arthur: Wow. That is a really powerful statement that they're moving there because of, you know, that their child doesn't experience disability, but they're moving there for the inclusivity of your district. That is great.

And that's the world that we want to live in where everybody is included. And as a person with a disability, I'm right next to someone without a disability. And that's really great.

And for our last question, I think we touched on it a little bit already, but after I met you, I was really interested in the work that you do there. And I began looking up things about your district, and I read an article in which you were quoted as saying: 

“Students, no matter what their learning style or why they are receiving special education, they need to feel like they belong with their peers. They need to feel part of the work. They need to be engaged and challenged, all students.” 

Arthur: I read that and I was like, Oh my gosh. Like it's so simple what you said, but it's like, it's great. So I wanted you to touch on why you feel that it is important to have everyone at all levels within the district on board for inclusion, including the students too.

Jennifer: Wow. Yeah. And it's such a simple statement and such a hard-to-achieve statement at the same time. And that's why we have lots of job security and education, because the work is ongoing, aspirational in many ways, because kids, naturally, a part of their development is learning where they fit with the world, and that can sometimes be a painful process for any young person they go through moments of this is the best thing and this is challenging and do my friends really like me? And, where do I fit and who are my people?

And that part of that is that developmental road that students are on. What's really important, and as we think about being an inclusive district, is how do we have factors of identity, such as disability or race or home language, not overshadow that natural process that students are going through around trying to figure out where they fit with the world and how they connect with peers, and what are their interests and how are they developing. 

Where we have those beliefs or underlying biases around those factors of identity overshadow and kind of derail that natural process of kids trying to figure out how they fit and where they belong 

Jennifer: You talk about why is it so important to have everyone on board? It's just so critical. The more that we're in this work, the more I see the inter-relationship. So an example. Was thinking about our business office. Very early in this work you discover if people can talk about the importance of inclusive education and overall, I think money shouldn’t be a yes or a no for inclusion. Right. And depending on how you set things up, it could be more or less expensive.

That’s not the that's not the variable we're focused on, we're focusing on what's right for kids. But there can be some shifts in costs for sure. Some things go up and some things go down as you reorganize your schools.

And if your business department isn't fully invested in this work, there may be barriers to moving forward in things that you know is right. We're very, very lucky. We talk about and include questions about your beliefs around inclusion for every employee, every employee, our business director, our custodial staff, our H.R. Department, math teachers, grounds crew. Everybody is asked about their beliefs or at least their openness to inclusion and then helping folks find their connection to that work. So that connection can happen in a lot of different ways in our operations department.

Really shifting that belief and inclusive education has helped us ramp up when we need a ramp or, you know, sometimes when we need something. I think I told this story in the book. I actually saw this student, she’s not a student anymore, a graduate that comes back and is now in college. We hope we're going to hire her as special ed teacher soon. She uses a wheelchair. And she was very involved in high school. Just a student who really found a great peer group and really connected. And one of the things they do is go to football on the Friday nights.

Jennifer: That was part of her peer group’s connection is just being part of the student body and getting into those fun activities. And we had a stadium that was ADA compliant, quote unquote, but the seating that was wheelchair accessible was nowhere near the student section.

It was in a different space than the stadium. And she. She came to us and she brought forward why this was not working for her, and we were able to get our physical therapist, operations chief, and her and the building principal out there that evening.

The next day on a Thursday afternoon, looking at another possible solution that because the maintenance department was fully on board, they diverted all their resources from other projects that next day they built a new platform Friday morning. So on Friday evening, she was at the game with her friends.

And that matters. It matters that students are on board with this in that it was a big deal not only to her but to her friends, that she had accessibility. We've had students be part of our leadership team in this work, and I think we could even do a better job at continuing to think about how do we listen more to the voices of students in this.

Jennifer:  I was on a learning walk the other day. We were in an elementary school and I had a student, I believe a second grade student, maybe third. And I said to him, Do you know that we're out here today because we're bringing some people from other districts, because in other districts not all kids are included in the same classrooms, and sometimes students with disabilities in other districts have to be in a separate classroom, and they can't be in the classroom with their friends and their peers.

And that student looked at me and he said, ‘What do you mean, in Oregon, nowadays?’ He was shocked because it has become so expected that of course everyone belongs and of course everyone should be in together. So I think it's critical.

I think it's ongoing work that in some ways the more you're in this work, everyone, it’s shifts that work. What I'm excited about is we're going to have a generation of students, in another year that will have never seen anything else but inclusive education.

And what does that mean for employment? What does that mean for colleges, universities? What does that mean for just our communities? When students experience an education, an inclusive world, how will they bring that out into their next steps as well?

Arthur: Yes, I'm so glad you shared the story about the student with the accessible seating at the football game. I was going to ask you if you could share that story, but I'm so glad you did, because it really is, like you said, ADA compliant means one thing. It just means that there has to be accessible seating. It doesn't say where it has to be. And, you know, and a lot of times designs just put them in the easiest place they can, you know, fit it into the design.

But if that's away from where everybody else is sitting, it's not fun to sit by myself, you know, at a game or something like that. So to have the student speak up and be comfortable enough to say something about it, that's really great.

That's fantastic. So that's I was going to ask you to share that story. I was like, oh, my gosh, I'm so glad she's talking about it. 

Jennifer: Well, she is. She's just as I said, she's worked on our leadership team for inclusive schools. She's now interested. She wants to become an educator. She's in school now and is getting her degree and is coming back and is doing student teaching right now in one of our schools. And so I'm just waiting for the day when I can hire her.

She's truly amazing. 

Arthur: That's great. And the other story you shared about the student you met the other day, and it's so interesting how children, like you said, they don't know anything else but inclusion. So when they see it, when they see that it's not happening, other places, they're just like, wait, what?

Like, I don't I don't understand. I've had experiences with that with my friend’s children who go to our local playgrounds that are inclusive playgrounds. And when I share with them, when I was your age, they didn't have these and I wasn't able to use my wheelchair on the playground.

They are just like, ‘Huh? Like you didn't?’ I said, Well, I was able to walk with my crutches, but it wasn't, you know, it wasn't easy for me. Like, but they didn't have this nice surfacing here, so I can really get around on my wheelchair. And you're just like, Well, why not? 

Jennifer: And they're just indignant. Right. That's not fair. Kids have a strong sense of fairness. Yes. So when we can nurture and hope and include that disability in that same conversation, then they won't accept that unfairness, the challenges.

And in the olden times or sadly, in many districts nowadays, students are being brought into schools that are segregated, and so they think that's normal or typical. And again, I think there are for the adults who are still…

Back to a previous question. We talked about what's challenging in this work. What's challenging is the underlying beliefs because people go into education for the right reasons. I truly believe that they want to help, and help students. And when things are hard, it's easy to think there's someone out there that could probably do this better than I could.

Jennifer: So for example, back to the teacher I talked about earlier in the fifth grade class who ended up developing that strong relationship with that student. In the old model, that student would have been taken to a different classroom with someone with great expertise in supporting students who don't use oral language, who have developmental disabilities, things like that, and that was the model that we in this country engaged in for so long. Of you, General Ed teacher, you don't have the expertise. Someone else has the expertise. So there's still when things get hard because sometimes they're hard, right?

Jennifer: Sometimes we don't understand our students trying to express with the behaviors that they are expressing or we haven't found a good entry point for our students or they're not feeling very connected. So it's very easy when things get hard to go back to that model.

Surely there's someone else out there, some magical place out there where the student would be better served. And I think that is what continues to perpetuate segregated classrooms. I don't think it's nefarious. I think people that are in education, want to do what's best for kids.

But we need to take stock and stop thinking magically about this and really look at the data. And the data is, when we do it well, they're much better served in their neighborhood school, in the general classroom, with supports, variations, adaptations, schedule changes as an individual child needs.

But that magical thinking about when it's hard, there's someone else out there that could do this better really needs to shift, because it's not true. We look at the outcomes of segregated classrooms. They're not good. And so we just need to be honest about that.

Not shame people for having had those beliefs, but call them in with some honesty about what is true, what we are seeing. By and large, for poor students as we move forward.

Arthur:  Well, Jennifer, I think you have said it all. I enjoyed our conversation today and thank you for taking the time to meet with me. And with the time difference, you being on the West Coast and me on the East Coast and making it work. Thank you so much for that. And I look forward to working with you again and talking with you and seeing you sometime soon, hopefully.

Jennifer: Sounds great. Thank you so much, Arthur. It's been a pleasure.

Arthur:  Oh, you're welcome. And you have a good day and a good weekend. 

Jennifer: All right, thanks. 

Arthur: We thank you for listening to this episode of the Inclusion Think Tank Podcast.

This podcast is brought to you by New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education NJCIE. Be sure to subscribe on YouTube, Spotify or Apple Podcasts, and don't forget to follow us on social media @NJCIE,  Until next time.

On today's episode, we welcome our guest, Bonni Rubin-Sugarman. During our conversation today, we will discuss the evolution of inclusive education and what motivates Bonni to continue her passion for bringing more inclusive schools to the state of New Jersey.

Arthur: This is the Inclusion Think Tank podcast brought to you by New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education, NJCIE, where we talk about inclusive education, why it works, and how to make it happen. On today's episode, we welcome our guest, Bonni Rubin-Sugarman.

Bonni is a retired educator, a former director of special education, and is currently an inclusive education consultant with NJCIE. During our conversation today, we will discuss the evolvement of inclusive education and what motivates Bonni to continue her passion of bringing more inclusive schools to the state of New Jersey.

Arthur: I would like to welcome everyone back to another episode of the Inclusion Think Tank podcast brought to you by the New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education. I am your host, Arthur Aston, and I am happy to welcome my guest to the podcast today, Bonni Rubin-Sugarman.

So Bonni thank you for joining me today for this episode.

Bonni: Thank you so much for having me.

Arthur: You and I, I've said this a lot this season, but you and I met over the summer at the NJCIE conference and it was great to meet you in person and to hear a little bit about your story. We met at dinner that night, and I'm really excited for you to share your story with everyone here on the podcast today.

Bonni: It’s wonderful to be here.

Arthur: Yes. So to get started, can you just share with us a little bit about yourself and tell us who is Bonni?

Bonni: Well, so I am Bonni Rubin-Sugarman. I'm a wife, a mother, a stepmother, a bubbe, which is a very important role in my world, and in addition to that, a very new golfer and a lifelong educator. I began my career as a general education teacher way back when, and we'll probably talk about that.

And then became a special education teacher. I was a learning disabilities teacher consultant on a child study team for several years. I've done pre-referral intervention for a number of years at the elementary and at the middle school level, and I was the Director of Special Education in two New Jersey school districts.

I retired from my full-time work in 2014, and have been a consultant for the NJCIE since 2014 and have probably been with the organization for about 25 years.

Arthur: Wow, that's great. I love that you said you are a new golfer and a Bubbe. That's really fun. Yes. Yes, definitely. I guess it was over in the spring. I went to—not golfing—but to Top Golf.

And they're very accessible for as a person being a wheelchair user, I found them to be very accessible and very knowledgeable, the people that we were paired with to help us out. They were very helpful with showing me how to use the clubs and everything from my wheelchair from a seated position. So I've definitely taken a liking to that style of golf.

Bonni: That’s a place I have to go. I have not been there yet. So it's on the list to do that.

Arthur: Yes. That's a lot of fun. We went for somebody’s birthday and tried it out and it was really great. So that made me when you said golfing, it made me think of that.

So as you mentioned, you've been an educator, a lifelong educator, which is really great. Can you just share with us how inclusive education became a personal goal for you?

Bonni: Wow, thank you for asking that question, because it actually started, believe it or not, soon after I started teaching. I started teaching in 1974, and I was an elementary teacher in Montgomery County, Maryland.

And as you well know, in 1975, things started to change dramatically with the inception of the Education for All Handicapped Children Act, which was obviously the forerunner of IDEA. And in my school in Montgomery County, Maryland, that was taken very seriously.

I taught in a team taught, multi-aged setting with another general education teacher. So we had the classroom setting was actually three classrooms with the walls opened and a multi-age group first and second grade, and this school encouraged these multi-age classes, team teaching, open space classroom, creative strategies, small group instruction, and collaboration. All the underpinnings of what good inclusive practice looks like.

I had a remarkable principal who was way ahead of his time. As a result of this, after the federal law changed, we had many children who would leave our classroom and go to a recess room for things like subjects like reading and language arts and math and that kind of thing, and our resource room, where a special education teacher informed us that now she could come into the classroo,m and we thought, ‘Oh, my goodness, this is wonderful.’ So now we have another professional in the classroom with the children that certainly she was working with, and she was able to have small group instruction with not only the children that she was taking out, but children in our classroom who benefited from the strategies that she had in her arsenal that we didn't.

So when you think about that, and again, this is 1975, not only did the children benefit and our students benefit from what she brought into the classroom as a special educator, but we benefited as well.

Bonni: At that point, we were in the right place at the right time. Now we know we were doing the right thing, and you know, Arthur, we were building the plane as we were flying it.

We were trying to figure out for ourselves and for our class and for our students what would work best. There was no training. There was no road map. But, we knew in our heart of hearts that this had significant benefits to everybody involved.

And, at the end of the day, these ladies that I started working with in 1974 and 1975 continue to be my dearest friends in the world today. So that was an added bonus.

Arthur: That’s great. I love that it started so long ago for you. Like right away when you started teaching. That’s really great to hear. And I love that you said how everybody benefited, not just the students, but also the other educators in the room, benefitted from the special education teacher coming in.

And it's interesting to me because every student learns differently. So, the way that you may have been teaching something a student in your class might not have picked up on the material, but having that additional person come in and show a different way and they say like, ‘Oh, wow, I get it.’ That always is very helpful. I always think that, like you said, everybody benefits from it. So that's a really good thing to hear and to hear that it started for you back in 1975. That's really great.

Bonni: And it also gave us the opportunity to reinforce that we're with those students all day. Our special educator came in, certainly at various times in the day, and just through watching those strategies, we were able to reinforce what worked for those students.

Certainly students with IEPs at the time, but also our other students. So it was such a win-win.

Arthur: Yes, a win-win for everybody. That's always great when it works out that way.

Arthur So can you, I want to, I guess, talk about the changes that you have seen.

Being an educator for so long, how has teaching and the state of inclusion changed over the times that you began up through the present or until when you retired?

Bonni: Well. Yeah. I see those, to a certain extent they are separate but also that they're, the strategies, the teaching strategies and inclusive practice, certainly go hand in hand.

As far as teaching is concerned. There are probably three things that come to mind that have changed dramatically, I think, over the years.

The first is technology. I think we would all agree that technology has to stand out in terms of educational practice when used well, and that's the operative term. When used well, it is such an incredible tool that supports learning needs for all students. Certainly, students with disabilities benefit significantly from technology. And that includes areas like individualizing instruction, a whole host of accommodating our students and certainly communication.

So it has become and this is certainly we learned a lot during the pandemic, but of what we're capable of. And I see such tremendous differences in the use of technology now than I even saw pre-pandemic. Highly skilled at using technology to enhance their student’s achievement. So that's probably the first one.

Bonni: The second area that I think is UDL, Universal Design for Learning, which certainly didn't exist when I started teaching, but as a planning tool, when used well as a planning tool, it just enables teachers to meet the needs of a significantly dispersed population.

And that is how instruction is delivered in areas of delivery as well as in areas of how students can demonstrate their learning. So I think that's the second important change.

Bonni: Then also the importance of data collection. That wasn't something that was used well or universally necessarily, certainly when I started teaching, and how data collection informs teaching and individual student progress. You can't measure anything objectively, obviously, without good data collection. And I think teachers and certainly in their pre-service training, that's emphasized in so many areas.

So those have been three major changes, I think, in terms of teaching. And then in terms of inclusion, when I was thinking about this, I was going to say write books about this.

Bonni: So, I've been teaching in New Jersey since 1989. So it's kind of, that's a while as well. And although I'm an optimist by nature, I really am, as far as inclusion is concerned, I think many districts that I've worked in and that I continue to be part of have made significant gains in inclusion. So that's a good thing. But I also think that as far as we're concerned, in New Jersey, we have a way to go and our data supports that.

So it's reflected in our data, and there are areas that create a pretty significant challenge for districts and for schools.

Bonni: What I see is students with learning disabilities, students with ADHD, ADD and even speech and language needs are certainly included at a much higher rate than students with intellectual disabilities or autism and certainly behavioral needs. Unfortunately, in many cases where you have students who are included it is a result of an administrative law judge or parents who have been very insistent on having their children included.

And my experience has been that sometimes we are there as consultants with NJCIE, because of that. So I think that although we have come a long way there, there's work to be done when it comes to inclusive practice more universally.

Arthur: So well said. I’m 40 years old now. I'll be 41 next week actually.

Bonni: Happy almost birthday.

Arthur: Thank you. So to hear what you were saying about the changes in education with technology and UDL and those things coming, happening over time.

It's really been great to see, and as you mentioned, during the pandemic, seeing the capabilities and what we are able to achieve with technology when it works correctly, has really been great and it's really been great for people with disabilities and students with disabilities to be able to use the technology for educational purposes and to really, I guess, to really, be able to succeed using technology that is available to them.

Bonni: And I think, just to piggyback on what you're saying, it's about access, and for some of our students, technology has provided significant access to that general education curriculum that had, you know, certainly years and years ago we didn't have and we didn't have universally.

I think what's in addition to what we just talked about, I think the one of the additional areas that's changed significantly is parents’ involvement, in not only the individual student process and how important that involvement is and how more consistent parent involvement is. But also, parents having a voice in their district practices when it comes to special education and inclusion through their SEPAC committees.

Having had that experience as a director as those SEPAC committees were evolving was an incredibly positive experience for me and I would like to think added greatly to how we approached inclusion and other areas of special education needs in the district.

Arthur: Yeah, I'm glad you mentioned that. That's a really good, good addition to mention for sure.

So we've talked about the benefits of inclusion and how everyone has benefited positively from inclusion. But can you share with us what are some of the things that make inclusion challenging to achieve?

Bonni: I think that the first thing and the most significant thing that I continue to see in many of the districts that I've worked in is overcoming a belief that a more restrictive environment provides greater academic benefit. And first of all, that's a myth.

And it continues to be something that people talk about, professionals talk about, parents talk about, students talk about, and there isn't any real basis or data that supports that idea because it's not.

I've observed students—and this is an interesting phenomenon—I have observed students in general education classes and then observed the same student in, say, a more restrictive environment or resource center classroom. And quite honestly, other than the fact that I can identify that it is the same student, there are so many aspects of the student's behavior, the student's engagement, and the student's motivation that is so different in a more restrictive setting. And when I talk about this to whether it be parents or whether it be administrators, and teachers, people still believe that the opportunities for that student are greater in the more restrictive environment. So I think that's one of the issues that probably are on top of that question of what is challenging for us in terms of moving forward and inclusion.

Bonni: So that's the first one. I think the second one I would want to talk to you about is the rationale for removal in IEPs, which is a significant conversation at IEP meetings as to why we need to remove this student in order for this student to benefit from this educational program.

And in many schools and in many districts, if you look at the rationale for removal, they're basically the same. People talk about the same issues. Pacing, they talk about small class sizes, they talk about repetition, the need for modifications, and significant accommodations.

And when you really drill that down, those are areas of need that can be and should be supported in a general education classroom. We've talked about special education being services, a group of services that are provided for a student, not necessarily in a place.

And I think that that's a recurring theme for many of our students. I sometimes say lower and slower doesn't mean better. And sometimes it’s more than not, conducive to educational progress for our students.

Bonni: And I guess number three, which I'm finding is a huge issue in many of our secondary schools, especially at the high school level, and that's how to design and implement curricular modifications for students. That area seems to be the continuing source of challenge for teachers and certainly for administrators.

When that area is consistently implemented and I'm speaking to curriculum modifications. What happens is, for those students, those modifications lead to more appropriate assignments, whether that be classroom assignments, homework assignments and then assessments, and then grades, they are all linked.

So when modifications are provided and they are provided appropriately, everything else kind of falls into place in a more consistent way for our students.

Bonni: So I think that's probably the third area that I would emphasize.

Arthur: You shared that, you've been doing this work for so long and you've seen a lot of changes take place and specifically in one of the districts you worked in Haddonfield.

Can you share what you see as a critical component for more inclusive practices to happen as it did in districts like Haddonfield?

Bonni: Well, I want to preface this by saying I was very fortunate when I joined the Haddonfield Administrative Team, and when I say fortunate, there was an inclusive mindset in hand. However, we needed to continue to enhance that. And I think that for me as a director Haddonfield was a good match. So we'll leave it there for now.

So what are critical components? I think philosophy and leadership are right up there, and communication. Communication with all stakeholders, certainly parents, teachers, staff, and administrative colleagues. Those ongoing conversations about where we are and where we're going.

The next thing that I think is critical within that context of communication is identifying barriers. What is getting in the way of more inclusive practice in your school district? And I ask that question as a consultant, I ask it in schools, and then I ask it in a broader sense, in a school district.

It's so important for us to try to identify what's getting in the way. And through conversations like what's working here? What are we doing that works for our students when it comes to inclusive practice?

I'm an optimist by nature. I love to start with that question. And let's get as many of the things that work up and on a chart. Let's talk about it. Let's celebrate what we do well. The flip side of that is, let's identify what's getting in the way.

Bonni: Hopefully, our what's getting in the way list is shorter than our celebration list. But I think it's important for all of us to agree that these areas or these elements get in the way of us moving forward.

Once we have identified those areas, then I think what follows in a very consistent way is training and support. Once we've identified it, let's do our best to provide more support to whatever group of individuals requires that support from us as administrators.

And that could be positive for behavioral supports, it could be technology, it could be curricular modifications. So many of the things that we've just talked about and co-teaching. So once those are identified and we implement this professional development and continue, it's not just one and done, continue to provide support in those areas to our teachers and our staff members. And that's through brainstorming, communication availability, whether it be our child study teams, our case managers, myself as a director. That ongoing support and the notion that I'm in this with you.

Bonni: If I were to talk about a message that I hope I gave to the folks I work with; we’re in this together. And that's the kind of thing that I think is vitally important when it comes to, you know, certainly moving forward.

The other thing is hiring practices. As districts, whether we do this in small groups or larger groups, depending upon the need and the staff members that need to be employed, I think that notion of an inclusive mindset is important. Somehow that has to be part of the process of hiring, the questioning and the interview, has to include the priority that the district has set in terms of inclusion.

Bonni: And then, you know, Arthur, the last thing I would say is stay the course! It can be a bumpy road. This was not necessarily a straight shot to where you're going. And, there's ebbs and flows and we're going to be taking some side trips and having some hard conversations. And those districts that have been the most successful that I've had an opportunity to work with have been those districts who have stayed the course during some pretty hard conversations.

Arthur: I think what you said is so true. It's especially that last part. It's not, it's not going to be easy all the time and they're going to be bumps and detours you have to make, but to remain focused on that goal and communication.

I love when you said that as well. That was so true. And acknowledging what you're doing right, and working on the things that you're not doing so well. That's all really important.

And I think what struck me the most in what you said was, it's like everybody is in this together. You even as the role you had as a director like you're working this with everybody, and, that's important for everybody that's involved to know that they have a leader, who supports them and is dedicated to reaching the inclusion goal, and just sticking with it until you get there.

Bonni: Thank you for saying that. And when I look back on my career, from the time I was a teacher and in the seventies, there have been instances where including that student, whether it be in the classroom, in a special subject area or an after school activity, has become the focus of a great many people in order to have that child be successful.

I remember, we had one student and if I remember correctly, at the time the student was a middle school student, and he had more significant needs and he was a runner. And he and his dad ran at home and through the community, and he loved it. And he wanted to be on the track team, and run with his, certainly with his peers.

And what we were able to set up for him, a group of us and this was case manager, the principal, myself as a director, we actually got on a schedule because the student didn't have support, in order to support that student needs, I shouldn’t say they didn't have support because he did, but he didn't necessarily have somebody who could run with him.

So we got together and talked about how we could support his need and be there to support him and the team, through running. We had actually been on a schedule to run with the track team through the community when they were practicing. So, for us, that was one of the highlights, and I look back at those times, and I say to myself how wonderful it was for us to have had the opportunity to do that with him.

Arthur: Wow. That's a great story. Wow. And it's one of those things that you recognize something that the student liked and you said, okay, how can we all become a part of this, and make this happen for that student? To make things better for them and you made it happen.

Wow. That's really great.

Bonni: He kept us all running.

Arthur: Yeah. Yeah. Got everybody active, right?

Bonni: That’s another win-win.

Arthur: Yeah. So to wrap up our conversation, it really ties into the last thing that you said there where, reaching the inclusion goal is not always a straight path and you have to go take some detours and there are some bumps and things in the road. And you have been at this inclusive education as your passion, as your career for over 40 years. What drives you to continue?

Bonni: You know something, Arthur? The same thing that drove me in the beginning, as in the beginning, you know, the ‘Genesis’ of all of this. And that was what we and I say ‘we,’ because, I think I have always been a ‘we,’ those educational, social, those community benefits to our students, our students, and to our school community and to our staff. That's honestly, that's the home run. That has always been the home run. I have had teachers say to me, he or she, meaning the student, has made me a better teacher.

I still get goosebumps when I see that, and honestly when a teacher says that to me. And in many cases, I have worked with teachers who have not had any experience with students who have a particular disability.

They don't have family members. They've not had a student who has had this particular need throughout their career. I think to a great extent, there's some fear, and ‘am I going to be able to do this?’

And when they discover that, how effective, how incredibly effective they are, because why? They're effective teachers, and they become more effective teachers because they have students who have greater needs. So that keeps my drive that keeps me going with all of this.

Bonni: And you know something, at the end of the day, Arthur, the great joy. Number one, the joy and the professional and personal benefit that my profession has brought to me as a person I will always be grateful for it.

I will always be grateful for this. And I have said to my own children, I hope you find that passion in the work that you do. I have been very fortunate to have found that in the work that I do and that is why I continue to do it.

And I am so grateful to be able to be part of the NJCIE community and be able to continue this work that we started all those many years ago.

Arthur: I love that you said it. It brings you joy.

I think that's what we all aim for in life, to find something, that we do for a living and to make a living, but it brings us joy. I think that is something we all should strive for.

And that is great, and I think that is a great way to wrap up our conversation today.

So, Bonni, thank you so much for joining me today for this conversation and sharing your journey of working in the world of inclusive education and for the change you are helping to make.

Even now, as a retired educator, you're still working in the field and consulting. So thank you so much for the work that you do and for taking the time today to join me for this episode of the podcast.

Bonni: Arthur, thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it.

Arthur: Yes. So you take care.

We thank you for listening to this episode of the Inclusion Think Tank Podcast. This podcast is brought to you by New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education, NJCIE.

Be sure to subscribe on YouTube, Spotify or Apple Podcasts. And don't forget to follow us on social media @NJCIE. Until next time.