The Inclusion Think Tank

On this episode of the Inclusion Think Tank Podcast, we welcome my guest Priya Lalvani, Priya is a professor of disability studies and the coordinator of the inclusive education graduate programs at Montclair State University. We discuss inclusive education from her perspective as an educator, mother, and researcher.

On this episode of the Inclusion Think Tank Podcast we welcome my guest Alyssa Rush. Alyssa and I discuss her perspective of inclusion through the eyes of a former general education teacher, and ways schools can improve their inclusive education settings. 

Arthur: Welcome to the Inclusion Think Tank Podcast, brought to buy New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education, NJCIE. As the name suggests, this podcast will discuss inclusive education, and most importantly why it works.

On this episode, I welcome my guest Alyssa Rush. Alyssa is an inclusion facilitator with NJCIE. She shares her experience of inclusive education, being a former teacher and her suggestions on how schools can im lori get their inclusive education settings

Arthur: I would like to welcome everyone back to another episode of the Inclusion Think Tank Podcast presented by New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education. On today's show, I welcome my guest, Alyssa.

Alyssa is an inclusion facilitator at NJCIE. So welcome to the show today. I'm happy to have you on as a guest.

Alyssa: Thank you. I'm so excited to be here.

Arthur: Yes. So to get started, can you just tell us a little bit about yourself? Tell us who you are and now what you do, and something you like to do for fun in your free time.

Alyssa: Free time? Okay. I am currently an inclusion facilitator with the New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education. I've worked mostly on the technical assistance side of our NJIETA grant, so I've had the pleasure of meeting school staff from all around the state, and working around their goals for enhancing inclusive opportunities for students in schools. I’m now shifting over to the systemic change side, which I'm really excited about. So, I'm just continuing to learn and grow with this organization.

And, my background primarily is that of I was a general educator. I taught high school history for eight years. I have my own experience with inclusion in that context. And, I also work as an executive functions coach with an outside organization, which is something that I really love and do that.

For fun, I would say, it's crazy, but I cook as a way of stress relief, and I noticed when I'm anxious, I bake, so everyone around me benefits from all those things because, you know, there's always something in the kitchen or something I'm trying out, which doesn't always work out perfect, but it's a fun opportunity to experiment and really have a little stress.

Arthur: That’s great. Cooking and baking is always a really good thing for sure. I can relate. I also find it very relieving, stress relieving, to cook or to bake, and it hits all of the senses, I think, the visual, any of the senses. So it really is relaxing. I find it relaxing as well, so I can relate to that.

So how did you become interested in inclusive education? Is there a specific event in your life that led you to this world of inclusive education? Or, how did you become interested?

Alyssa: So as I mentioned, I taught as a high school social studies teacher for eight years, and I co-taught that class with a special educator. And so in that experience, we worked with students with a diverse range of abilities.

And, I will say there was the first year, I had a student with more complex needs. I remember feeling that like I wasn't prepared or I wasn't qualified to really support that particular student. And luckily, at the time, I had such incredible colleagues who really made me feel safe, being uncomfortable, and gave me the opportunity to learn all about that student, about their devices, the needs that they had, where it built my confidence in terms of how I was going to support that student in my classroom, and then it also opened me up to thinking about ways I could use some of those accommodations for all of my students.

And so just seeing how important it was to really create that environment that was welcoming of all of my students and then seeing how some of the adaptations I was making, how they could really serve everyone.

And so I think in doing that, I saw my students build their self-regulation skills, it built their sense of ownership and using different materials in the class. And so seeing that, building that welcoming environment even through the challenges and seeing myself grow where I was like, Wow, I can do this.

And I'm supported by like incredible people where we're doing it as this village of sorts. It just, I just saw how impactful it was for everyone in the room. So that's like my hook, and from there it was just, it became a more normal part of my practice.

Arthur: Yeah, I love the two parts that you mentioned where you are ok to say, like, ‘Hey, I'm uncomfortable with this, like, I'm not familiar with this.’ And then also having, like you said, having the support around you to help you through it and help you learn, help you learn what it is and what is actually going on and the needs of the student. And then on the other side of it, seeing how it can all be beneficial for everybody in the room that it's a great progression through, like, ‘Hey, like, I'm not too sure about this.’

But then, having the help and the support to get you through the steps and then, the final realization that it’s beneficial to everybody, which is such an important thing to mention.

Arthur: What does inclusive education mean to you? How would you define inclusive education?

Alyssa: So I think and this is something that just sticks with me, I think as a social studies educator is like, the belief in the fundamental right of access to quality education for all students, that really is a strong foundation of what I taught. It's what I believe in. And what that looks like in a school is, children learning in their neighborhood schools with their friends in age appropriate classrooms, with their peers.

And, in that least restrictive environment where there's that access to high quality instruction. But students also, you know, are receiving interventions and supports that they may individually need. And I really think there's an element of school culture that builds into that where you're not only like celebrating differences, but it's normalizing it where it's common and you know, we're also emphasizing student strengths and everything that we do. So it's kind of like a few parts to that.

Arthur: Yeah, I think that is. I love the highlighting the strength that's always so important to me. As someone myself who lives with the disability and focusing on my strengths, which you know, sometimes aren't always so strong, but, just recognizing them and focusing on those rather than the things that I can't do is something that has helped me through my life personally.

Having other people believe and focus on my strength is especially my former teachers and educators throughout, from elementary school all the way through college is, you know, something definitely that I reflect on quite often.

And really, I'm grateful for it to have had great support through my educational years. The teachers in and out of the classroom. I'll say because I know we learned in multiple and multiple settings in and outside of the classroom.

Arthur: So you mentioned that you were a co-teacher for a while there and that is, you know, part of inclusive education, but can you describe what an inclusive education classroom looks like to you? How is it set up, and all of those kinds of things?

Alyssa: It's interesting you ask that because I think when I started, I had this vision of like, you know what your classroom is supposed to look like, the groups for this activity that groups for this activity. And I think in practice, it's just really letting go of what you think it should be to making the room meet the needs of your students.

And so, I mean, I think in terms of setting up those expectations, it's really empowering student voice through that process. Having them co-author classroom norms and expectations, really clearly explicitly sharing routines, expectations, criteria, but finding ways to build student voice into that where they have agency over those decisions.

Because for me, it was something that in order to get the buy-in, I needed their participation. And, just thinking about the flexibility in everything that I ever designed because what I thought was going to work, oftentimes, there were three other ways to do it.

And oftentimes, the best way was asking the students what they wanted to do or how they were going to easily, or more easily navigate something. So I mean, that came in years of my experience where it was like, Oh, right, I have the design set up this way, but why don't I ask them to design it in a way that would just make everything more accessible for them?

So, yeah, I guess the whole point of that is really including student voice and agency into the decisions in order for it to fit the needs of that specific room and every room looks different because you have different students.

Arthur: Yes, that is great. I love the bringing in, like, full collaboration along with the students like including them in the conversation of what it is that will work best for them.

As you know, it's always great to have that input when you’re designing anything or creating something for someone else to see what works, what actually works for them.

It's very different, but for myself, having a physical disability, not all the accommodations and things that are made and approved by the Americans with Disabilities Act are the greatest, and they aren’t quite accessible for people who actually use wheelchairs.

Alyssa: Mm-Hmm.

Arthur: I often wonder it's like, did they have someone in a wheelchair test this ramp out? Because, I don't think they did. Because, this is really difficult to get up.

So, yeah, when you said having the students input and actually talking with them and having their voice heard and included in that conversation, it made me think of that. And I'm like, Yeah, like, that's really, really true. It helps out so much when you know what their needs are and what they’re looking for, and how you can implement that and include that into the classroom setting. It has to be very beneficial for everybody.

Alyssa: I will say, though, I mean, it definitely wasn't something I had figured out at first, either. It came oftentimes out of the necessity where a classroom was changed or I had to move to a different location where then I was scrambling to figure things out.

And I'm like, ‘I have all these other people I have to think about, like, why don't I ask their opinion, instead of me trying to manage it all alone?’ And then, when I did let go, you saw the success of the things that were, you know, that they put in place.

Arthur: Yeah. So in your introduction, you did mention that you are an executive functions coach. Can you explain what you do in that role and how the work you do can be beneficial in an inclusive classroom setting?

Alyssa: Absolutely. In thinking about this, it's like the first thing that really comes to me is I build relationships with my clients and the students that I work with, because I think in order for us to even start talking strategy or introduce a tool or something, you have to build that foundation of trust and hear concerns, and really think about ways that you're going to navigate that route as a team.

And so, more logistically, we look to identify some of their challenges with executive functioning at that time. And then we, you know, prioritize areas of concerns with the client. And another huge aspect is considering their mindset because, there is definitely an aspect of readiness for change that goes into it where people come in at different levels of feeling like they're ready to do something different or try something new. And so that really in thinking about that, that helps us to identify and prioritize the goals that we're going to work on.

And so in the actual day to day, I work to support the clients with those goals through introducing tools and strategies to really increase independence in all aspects of their lives, whether it's academic, whether it's managing a schedule and getting to practice on time, whether it's an adult trying to coordinate when they're going to go grocery shopping or it's, just social-emotional like how they connect with themselves. And so I mean, I think all of that really builds into what could benefit an inclusive setting.

And so, I remember as a teacher when I started this work, it really helped me to reflect on what I was doing with my students in my classroom. And I think sometimes there's this expectation that students should have a specific level of functioning or a set of skills that they should have by a certain age and, in my experience, I just didn't see that that was the case, especially with like how diverse classrooms really are. And so I think it really becomes the responsibility of, you know, every person to think about how we're going to support our students in different educational settings.

I mean, teaching a high school student who has six different teachers or five different teachers. And so, it's all of our responsibilities to teach and model those kind of pieces in what that looks like in our individual setting and then really sharing those ideas with each other around what works for that particular student in order to help them be successful in a future grade or a different class.

And when I was able to reframe that and really build that sense of student agency in the skills or the tools that they were using, I think it helped. You saw the benefit like you. You saw the increase in engagement. You saw that they were able to participate, in different ways or it just like, you saw them grow. So I think finding ways to kind of capture that and share it with their future teachers was something that really became important to me.

Arthur: Yeah, It's so interesting. And I majored in psychology and in college, so it's always interesting to me. And as you said, with mentioning the milestones that you know they're supposed to reach or they say, you're supposed to reach my certain age or a certain grade level, and just how that is not necessarily true for everybody, and it's just everybody's an individual and you just have to, you know, go with it and figure out ways to help each student. And then, as you said, like in the high school years where you have all the different teachers, that can be overwhelming for any and every student, I think, and you have the different styles of teaching by each person, and it can be very, very challenging for sure. So, the work that you're doing as the executive functions coach, I think can be very beneficial for the inclusive education setting, for sure.

Arthur: So the next question I have is what are some of the challenges that you find that can be associated with inclusive education?

Alyssa: I think something that I said earlier makes me really kind of connect with this is that willingness as a staff member or person, whoever you are, to be able to share your vulnerability and honesty in maybe fears that exist around some of the changes or around any concern that you have with it. Because. I think in when I was a teacher, when I was able to vocalize that, it helped me to not only receive the help that I needed and the support that I needed from parents, and the school psychologist, everyone around me in this building.

But I also saw how important it was to have that structure that said, ‘Hey, we get this is new. If it doesn't work out perfectly at the beginning, that's OK.’

So I felt safe to almost like, try something new and fail, where I wasn't going to be in trouble for it, or I knew I wasn’t damaging the student and that it was safe, if there was a safe space for me to and structures in place where I was supported in that process.

So I will say in my work in the Technical Assistance Project, I have heard some of those concerns where teachers want to make sure that they're delivering rigorous lessons or they have these extra curricular expectations.

And so just finding ways that they can be flexible in delivering those pieces while also being open when they need support and then hopefully those structures exist for the teachers to have the support. Because, as a co-teacher, if I didn't have common planning time with my special educator, I wouldn't have learned nearly half of the things I did that I would have needed to do as a general educator to support the students with disabilities in my class.

And so just seeing how those organizational structures and the time is so necessary for teachers to be able to learn and reflect and grow through changes as a team.

Arthur: That’s such a great answer, and it reminded me of it being OK to say that you don't know something, and just reaching out for help and saying, OK, I need some assistance with this. And because things constantly change in every field and the technology and the style that you use one school year might be outdated by the end of that school year. By the new school year, they're using something else. So it can be challenging that in itself to just keep up with everything and all of the changes that occur. But, to be vulnerable, like you said and to say, ‘Hey, I need some help with this. This part here is definitely important.’

And on the flip side of that, can you share with us some of the benefits you have seen for inclusive education?

Alyssa: I think as a high school educator, the benefits really are just immense in terms of how it benefits everyone.

I mean, it's something that's benefited me, as an individual who doesn't have a disability, but it's just you see the shift in the culture and you see all your students collaborating and growing and learning from each other and everyone's being challenged and really held to high expectations where students rise to those occasions.

And so I mean, when I mentioned the high school piece like really setting up students for success when they leave, whether that’s moving on to higher education or setting them up for success with a job or independent living like just really preparing students to be successful when they graduate.

And that success looks different for all of our students. But, our society, doesn't. We want to make sure that they're prepared for what they're going to experience when they leave school, and that was always a huge part of my mindset around it.

So, and looking at how you can as early on, remove those limitations where students are going to be as successful in those independent settings as possible.

Arthur: Yeah, that is preparing for after the high school life and, whatever that looks like for that individual is such a great thing to mention because it’s not, everybody doesn't take the same path after high school and that is OK. So it’s really great that you actually mentioned that.

Arthur: And the last question I have for you is, can you give us one thing that can be done in every school to better improve inclusive education?

Alyssa: It’s such a big question. So I think for me, the first thing that really comes to mind is thinking about how it's not one person's job or one department's responsibility and really breaking down existing silos to make this a whole community's responsibility because it impacts everyone.

It impacts the students, the parents, the community, the scheduling, down to, custodial staff, organization of everything. So I think, when one group is doing all this heavy lifting, it takes a lot more time to see change.

And so although, it's like a wide school or wide district changes, takes definite time. I think just really considering how you can start by opening up that conversation or including everyone in the goals that they have for the process and understanding that everyone may have a different role in the way that they participate but, the end goal is essentially the same because it's your community; these are your people. This is you. So thinking about how we can just begin to open up that conversation more widely.

Arthur: Yes, and I again, a lot of the conversation we've talked about collaborating and getting others involved and you just said it again with not just, it's not one person or one department's responsibility for this. You have to get multiple people involved, multiple teachers in different departments involved, and everybody to work together to make this a great success because it is possible.

And it can't just be on one or a few people. It has to be a group, a group project, a group effort. Everybody, all-hands-on-deck kind of situation where everybody is sharing their piece of information and knowledge and how it can all work together to benefit again, to benefit all the students and help every individual student reach their full potential.

And that's a great way to wrap up this episode.

So, Alyssa, I thank you for your time today. I thank you for all the great information that you've shared and the knowledge and awareness that you bring to the subject of inclusive education.

I really enjoyed this conversation with you, and I hope you have a great day.

Alyssa: Thank you, and thanks for taking the time to chat. It's been great.

Arthur: Yes, it has been. So enjoy your day, and I will be in touch soon.

Alyssa: Alright, thanks.

Arthur: Thank you.

On this episode of the Inclusion Think Tank Podcast we welcome my guests Tim and Amy Rohrer. Tim is a speaker, author and self-advocate. He and his mom, Amy, share their tips for how schools can become more inclusive and the projects that Tim is working on to advocate for better social inclusion. 

Find Tim’s resources on his website: https://tips4inclusion.wixsite.com/disabilityinclusion

Arthur: Welcome to the Inclusion Think Tank podcast brought to you by New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education, NJCIE. As the name suggests, this podcast will discuss inclusive education and, most importantly, why it works.

On this episode, I welcome my guests, Tim and Amy Rohrer. Tim is a speaker, author and self-advocate. He and his mom, Amy, share their tips for how schools can become more inclusive and the projects that Tim is working on to advocate for better social inclusion. 

Arthur: Welcome back to another episode of the Inclusion Think Tank podcast brought to you by New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education.

On today's episode, I welcome my guests, Tim and Amy Rohrer, and I'm really excited to have you both on today. Thank you for joining me. 

Amy: You’re welcome. Thank you for having us. 

Tim: Thank you for having us. 

Arthur: Yes. So I would like to start off this conversation with this first question, which is, can you just tell us about yourselves and share something fun that you like to do in your free time? 

Tim: My name is Timothy Rohrer. I'm a speaker, self-advocate, and author for disability inclusion and something I do during my free time. I like to do art like painting, drawing. Occasionally, I've been going out fishing, hiking, kayaking, riding a bike and doing outdoor activities. 

Arthur: That’s fun. I love fishing.

Amy: And I guess I'm Tim's mom and I'm kind of like his business manager now, just kind of developed into that, but he's amazing and does great work. Everybody is inspired by him. As far as myself, I also have another child who's 16 years old and as a family, we also are part of a nonprofit foundation called 5-Help Foundation, where we give back to our community.

We just had a food drive. We're having a clothing drive coming this weekend, so Tim is a partner in that as well. It's a teen-founded program and I run the volunteer operations for our teens.

Arthur: What does inclusive education mean to you? How would you define inclusive education?

Tim: Inclusive Education means not only teach special ed students how to communicate with other people, but we teach the regular ed peers how to communicate with them. Inclusive education means allowing people with disabilities to be part of the regular ed population.

And one of my analogies, I made a flag about inclusion, in which the yellow stripe means people without disabilities. Blue meaning people with disabilities, and the center stripe is green, which means we're integrating both groups of people to live together.

Arthur: Wow, that is such a great analogy.

Amy: I don’t know if you can see but it says, even though some people are different, we can all be friends on the bottom. But the flag wouldn't typically have the words on it, but he came up with that idea.

So I think inclusive education just really basically means giving people the same opportunity as everybody else in the same environment. 

Arthur: Yes, that is such a great analogy that is so simple and so true, it's like we can mix. you know, we can put everybody together, I love that.

That's a great analogy, you said, that's a bookmark that you have?

Amy: Yeah, that's a bookmark. He has the idea for a flag and we have it in a, like a banner size as well. Like, really big.

Arthur: Oh, that is great. That just made my day. 

Arthur: So Tim, can you tell us about the educational guide that you have written? It's called: “How to be a Good Influence to People with Disabilities.” And can you share with us what inspired you to create this?

Tim: This pamphlet is called “How to be a Good Influence to People with Disabilities.” It lists what a disability is to children and then lists ten steps of how we can include them. This set says “What is a Disability” and gives a walk through about what disabilities affect people. And all of this is the steps that children can take to include them. Like the first step, number one: When you see someone who is different from you, don’t be afraid of them. They just want to be like everyone else.

Be nice and introduce yourself to them. Start to talk to them. And then with more steps, like if they're having a hard time doing something like tying their shoes, or opening their snack, offer to help them with it. And my favorite part, this, number nine: Be sure to spend time with them outside of school.

Invite them to come over for a playdate or for a party. Try inviting them to spend time with you in a group of friends. Be it the park, movie, bowling, mini golf, library, or the museum. 

Amy: And this pamphlet is available for free on his website. Tips4Inclusion, the number four. He created it.

It's a free resource on his website for anybody that wants that.

Arthur: That’s great. The one thing I really love about it is that you made it for children because you broke it down into very simple–

It's ten steps, but they're very simple and easy to do. I love that you said, number nine, what's your favorite to invite them places outside of school. 

And I was born with a disability myself. I have spina bifida, so I use a wheelchair and crutches, so I definitely can relate to that. And, having friends in school and outside of school, I think, is really important to stress. And so that's a great thing that you created there.

And we'll definitely put a link to your website in the show notes for this episode so everybody can go and download that free resource, because I think it's very useful and will be very helpful to many, many young people.

Tim: I’m gearing towards young people because children learn fast when they're little, and they're open minded to learn new things. Once they reach middle and high school, they start to close their mind toward new learning opportunities.

Arthur: Yes, that's so true, they definitely absorb a lot more when they're younger. It's easier to show them things and they really understand it right away. It's really very interesting how that works.

So in addition to the pamphlet, you also have written a book which is really great. It's called Timmy’s Story, a story about autism and friendship. Can you share with us a little bit more about your book and what it's about and why you wrote it?

Tim: This book is called Timmy’s Story, A Story About Autism and Friendship. This book is about a boy named Timmy with autism. And it shows what he’s sensitive to, and what he's obsessed with and going to speech therapy and being diagnosed with autism. 

Then at the end, his teacher, Miss Bethany, was concerned about Timmy being different and not fitting in, so she decided to teach her class about Timmy and about autism, and the kids decided to hang out with him, like at pizza party and other places at the very end of the book. 

Amy: Tim not only wrote the book, but he illustrated it. He did all the pictures. 

Arthur: Yes, I was just going to say that that is so fantastic. I love the illustrations. I'm not an artist at all. So anyone who can draw and illustrate things, I really admire that in people. I love looking at art and illustrations and things. So I really thought it was really great that you wrote it and illustrated it.

And it shares such a great message of friendship and the importance of, again, making friends and just talking to people. I always say that people should talk to someone who is different than they are, and you find out you like a lot of the same things. 

Like you said in the story, they go to pizza parties and things. So it's like a lot of people like pizza. so if you find that you know that one thing that you have in common with somebody else, it really can create a good and long lasting friendship. 

Amy: Yeah, He’s actually working on a sequel to it. But this book, if anybody's interested, it's available on Amazon. He's working on a sequel about a sensory-friendly birthday party so people can understand how to adapt and include people with disabilities to make them more comfortable.

Arthur: Yeah, you said it was a sensory-friendly birthday party?

Amy: Mm-Hmm. 

Arthur: That’s great. Wow. These stories are so needed, and I think that's what's missing a lot of times. As you said, it's available on Amazon. You can go to Amazon and search for books about disabilities and topics related to disabilities, and again, I think they miss out a lot. 

They've gotten a lot better, but they miss out a lot on children's stories. And that is, again, that's where we need to begin educating others about disabilities. When they're small, when they're young, so when they grow up and like you said, when they're in middle school, they can remember the story they read when they were a younger child about the person with autism or another disability and not be afraid and want to become friends with somebody who has a disability. So it's really important that you're sharing these stories and, I’ll definitely be keeping an eye out for that sequel on that story. That's great. 

Amy: This book, Timmy’s Story, the one we just shared, is a conversation starter for children in school like grades K to 5. It’s kind of what it's geared towards. But it's been purchased, our local school districts, we have two school districts with two different high school districts. They each purchased over 100 copies, but other districts have bought multiple copies for their classrooms, and he's even the keynote speaker where they bought a bunch of books for their staff at back-to-school year. 

He is going to be doing a professional development book talk on the book come December. So I think it's a great tool if people want to look into.

Arthur: It is, and it's great again that you wrote it and you illustrated it. So you're the best person to talk about it. So it's really awesome that you're getting invited to all of these events to get a chance to talk about it and that people are purchasing the book and school districts are purchasing the book in such large quantities, because again, it's a very important message that needs to get put out there. So, I just wish you the best of luck with everything. It's really cool to see all of this happening for you. That's really great.

Tim: And one thing to mention that even though this virus is not going to end anytime soon, like I don't want COVID to stand in the way of people hiring me to do presentations about disability inclusion. It could be virtual or in-person, but either way, I'm making an impact—to make the stigma against people with disabilities less common, one small step at a time. 

Tim: For many years, we've been hearing about social skills, to teach them to special ed students. Sometimes, like it may work for them and sometimes they still talk about the things that are in their comfort zone. If we only teach special ed students and the regular ed students will not have any understanding how to communicate with special needs people.

It needs to be a two-way street. We have social skills lessons for people who are regular ed and social skills for people who are special ed. 

Amy: So I think his point is we should educate and teach these skills to everybody. So when he goes out, he's trying to educate the general population, to learn how to include, communicate, and interact with people that have disabilities because they're always the ones pulled out to try to learn how to interact with the people that don't have a disability.

Why don't they teach the general population? It really should be taught in schools. The other children need to learn how to adapt to them as well. And they'll learn and they'll benefit from it. They'll help everybody. 

Arthur: Absolutely. It's that's so true and how you know, and it goes back to your tier, your flag idea with the colors and just bringing everybody together and teaching everybody everything. So everybody can just mix together and make things happen. And just it's all that; I'm so happy that you're here and with the two here about the work that you're doing, it's really exciting for me.

I am much, much older than you, but I really, really appreciate the work that you're doing for people with disabilities and just helping to educate everybody. I'll actually be 40 years old next week. Yeah. So like I said, I've been passionate about these topics for a long time and to see you at such a young age, going full force at it and writing books and things like that, it's really exciting to see. 

Amy: He’s only 21. Yeah, it's a lot in the last three years since he's been out of high school, it's kind of made it his mission to get out there and educate about inclusion because it really was hard for him at high school. It was kind of a dark point for him. So I think the way he kind of dug himself out of it was first when he wrote that pamphlet and then that landed on the front page of the New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education was the first one to publish it.

That's how we came to you guys. That kind of started our journey where it got on the front page of the newspaper and went viral. And then we started making other resources and people started asking them to speak at major conferences and in schools, then COVID hit.

And that's when he wrote the book, because we had a lot of time on our hands. And he also has YouTube channel Tips4inclusion. (The number four). He animated educational videos about different disabilities, autism, friendship, and inclusion.

If people want to check that out, there's a lot of great videos to help educate on it. He also was—during the pandemic, he's a busy boy—he works on this stuff like day and night. We created all those resources into printable resources on Teachers Pay Teachers.

So he's doing pretty well selling things on there. So it's called Tips4—It's always the number four—inclusion on there as well. With a lot of great posters, worksheets, lessons, videos, all kinds of things about inclusion. Games that he made to help teach. This is what he wants to do. He's just out there trying to get out there as much as we can. 

Arthur: Yeah, and you're right. As you said, you're very busy. That's really great. And,  I think the time that we all spent the last year and a half or so, spending time in the house and finding a way to be productive, I think has been helpful for many people. So that's really great that you took that time and found a way to continue your mission. So that's really cool. 

Amy: And we have to learn to navigate the virtual worlds, but that's just kind of opened a burst of opportunities because now you present anywhere in the world, he doesn't have to physically either. So. 

Arthur Right? Yeah. And I love what you said. Like, you didn't want, you know, the pandemic to stop people from hiring you to speak because like you said, if you can just do it virtually now. You can stay right in your home and speak anywhere across the globe now. So it's really great that you're doing this. So thank you again for the work that you're doing. 

Our next question is what are the benefits that you have seen as a result of inclusive education?

Tim: Inclusive education. The benefits of it is that it makes people with disabilities feel the same way as everyone else, and not have to have to label them into their own world. Like, people with disabilities deserve to be part of the rest of the community, but with accommodation to their needs, almost like how we have different options of food for people who are like diabetic, have allergies or are vegetarian. Like, we should have certain aspects like friendship and like college, like we should have programs tailored to their needs rather than just that traditional program.

Amy: I think it doesn’t just benefit the person with the disability, but it benefits everybody out there because they can learn a lot from somebody with a disability. They have a lot of strengths and things that they can do and people should be open to that.

I think if everybody is in the same environment, they'll understand more and be able to gain on both ends. 

Arthur: Yes. Yeah, all of what you said is so true, it does benefit everybody. And I think it makes it makes everybody better as adults, as they get older, learning how to interact with each other, as children and as students, helps you for when you're outside of school and it goes back to to your pamphlet that you created and saying, don't just be friends with somebody inside the school building, make sure that you invite them to places outside of the school hours. So it's really all just ties in together and it does make everybody better. So that's a really good point that you brought up there. Thank you. 

Arthur: Our last question is what is one thing that you feel that can be done in every school to better improve inclusive education?

Tim: Just as on my flag, we should make the school green like not yellow or blue. That we should be teaching regular ed students how to communicate with people who are different from them. Teach them like to include them on the playground during recess, let them sit,

invite them to their lunch table during lunch time. Ask for each other’s phone numbers, and so they can spend the time on the weekends or during school breaks doing fun things together.

Amy:  I think it really starts educating them when they're young, and that's the foundation of this pamphlet, his book, and everything he's doing to try to get into these schools to help them understand about disabilities. 

Children don't learn about what a disability is, and they wouldn't be afraid of it so much. And maybe they would. It would just be a natural part of every day and some day, maybe we won't even have to use the word inclusion. Everybody will just be included. And that would be amazing. So I think the more schools educate, whether it's with Tim's resources or on their own. I think the better.

Arthur: Yeah, that's it, 'cause it's so true just to continue to educate yourselves and, through great resources like Tim’s. I think that the resources that you're putting out are so important because you actually are someone who lives with a disability so you can better understand and you have a great understanding and a way to talk about it that I think is missing a lot of time. So again, thank you so much for the great work that you're doing to be 21 years old and to have that energy and enthusiasm for something that has such a great message and a great meaning that is very important.

Tim: Like, I really hope that that schools should be required to, like, teach regular ed students about disabilities. It should be, like, mandated more. 

Amy: He’s actually written to some politicians. He had a reaction or response from New York Governor Cuomo, and they put it up, when he was still in office, put it up his website and his book on their state social media site.

New Jersey, he spoke to the Jersey Department of Education in January 2020 before COVID hit. I think COVID just kind of like made it much harder for us to get back into things, but he’s doing it and he's getting word out, but he's still sending letters, and we're still always trying to find out ways to get word out about him and his resources and get him in more places and try to make it happen because it's so important. It shouldn't be forgotten.

Arthur:  It's so true. And I said, I look forward to all that is to come for you and from you. It’s very encouraging that you are out there and like you said, writing to politicians and to get some things changed. So it's great that you're doing this work. And I thank you both for your time and you all have a great day and I will definitely be in touch.

Amy: Thank you. 

Arthur: Thank you. 

Arthur: Thank you for listening to this episode of the Inclusion Think Tank podcast. This podcast is brought to you by New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education. Be sure to subscribe on YouTube or Spotify. And don't forget to follow us on social media @NJCIE.

Until next time.

On this episode of the Inclusion Think Tank Podcast we welcome my guest Priya Voleti. Priya and I discuss how making inclusive education a collaborative approach by involving all faculty, staff, other students and families is beneficial to all students.

Arthur: Welcome to the Inclusion Think Tank podcast brought to you by New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education NJCIE. As the name suggests, this podcast will discuss inclusive education and, most importantly, why it works.

On this episode, I welcome my guest Priya Voleti. Priya and I discuss how making inclusive education a collaborative approach by involving all faculty and staff, other students and families is beneficial to all students.

Arthur: Welcome back to the Inclusion Think Tank podcast brought to you by New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education.

On today's episode, I'm happy to welcome my guest Priya Voleti. Priya I'm very happy to welcome you to the podcast today. Thank you for joining us. 

Priya: Thank you for having me. I’m excited to be here, and chat for a little bit.

Arthur: Yes, so I would love to share a brief story about you where you were a great welcome to me during my first week of working here with New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education. 

I was in many seminars that week, and one of the first ones that I was in, you and I shared a breakout room, and you definitely helped calm my fears and my nervousness of being overwhelmed with all of the information.

So I definitely, I want to thank you publicly for that and making my transition into this position very, very easy.

Priya: Yes, I remember those, I remember that feeling, being overwhelmed.

So happy to have helped you with that. Take it, one thing at a time. Yes.

Arthur: Yes, it definitely helped me prepare for the other seminars that I was a part of. It was like, OK, I'll get it. It's just taking one thing at a time, and it will all come to me. So again, thank you for that.

Arthur: To start off, can you just tell us a little bit about yourself and just tell us who you are, some things that you like to do, and anything else that you would like to share with our listeners?

Priya: Sure. So, like Arthur said, my name is Priya. I have really been involved in education my entire life. I have always wanted to be a teacher. I became a teacher and actually did one of the pilot programs at my college, Boston University.

They were initially piloting a program where they said you can get duly certified in elementary and special education, as it was called at that time, and I thought, ‘Hey, why not?’

So I was one of the first to kind of try out that program and fell in love with it. I taught for many years, mainly in New York City, and while I was teaching in New York City, I always kind of had a bug for pre-service education, and so I thought, let me try this out, why not go back to school, spend some more money, and I decided to do that.

So, I returned to Teachers College, where I did my doctoral work in curriculum and teaching. And while I was, there is where I really got introduced and kind of immersed in a way to inclusive education, because I was working in the department as junior faculty and also supervising student teachers in both their general ED and critical special ED placements, as we called it. 

I really just fell in love with it. So decided, this is really where I'm meant to be, and since then I've been teaching at Montclair State and their inclusive education department, and through that actually got introduced to Fred, who is, the head of NJCIE, And he linked me up with some consulting opportunities with schools and providing professional development and training. I really feel like I hit the jackpot, because I kind of get to have one foot tapped into the academic world, teaching at Montclair State, but my other foot stays embedded in the practice and seeing all the great things that teachers are doing in schools. That really allows me to kind of marry the two worlds together, and feel very lucky that I have the opportunity to do that.

Priya: Then beyond that, that's kind of my education world. For fun, I grew up in upstate New York and my whole life I thought, Oh, let's not move to Jersey, anywhere but Jersey, but here I am and fell in love with Jersey. I love living here. We've been living here  for about eight years now, and my husband and I have three girls, so they are currently ages nine, seven and five. So they definitely keep me on my toes, and remind me that I don't know everything that teachers know.

And for fun, I like to hang out with my family. I love being outside. 

I have been trying to read for fun more than usual, which has been nice and I love to bake, that’s my go to, so that's a little bit about me.

Arthur: Oh, that's great. I love being outside as well, and baking is one of my favorite things as well, so that's really cool to hear.

I love what you said about being able to have one foot in academia and being able to be a professor at Montclair, and then also being able to be in the schools and seeing some of the things that you’re teaching those soon to be teachers in action. So it's a really cool thing, I'm sure.

Arthur: So our next question is a very interesting question, and I'm asking this of all of our guests just to see the difference and the similarities and some of their answers.

So the question is, what does inclusive education mean to you and how would you define inclusive education?

Priya: Yeah, that is a big and essential question. I’m interested to listen to the podcast to see some of the similarities and differences that come up.

I think that one of the beautiful things about inclusion is that it’s so dependent on the students, the environment you're in and all of that. So to have one standardized definition, I think, would take away from some of those nuances in some of those complexities that come about with inclusion.

So when I think about inclusion, first and foremost, I see it as a civil right for students to be able to get the education that they deserve in an environment that suits them with their grade level peers.

I think one of the major misconceptions about inclusion is that it’s thought of as a place or a location, meaning that, if you were to put students who have varying needs in another classroom, now you've accomplished inclusion or you're doing inclusion. I think that one of the things that I often talk about with my students is that it's a mindset. 

Inclusion is something that we need to believe in first. We need to believe that all of these students belong here, and all of these students are capable. And I think that is one of the essential prerequisites of inclusion, and I think beyond that, we have to think not as inclusion as doing something. In other words, it's not something that we are, checking off the box, by physically placing the students inside or giving them certain work to do. Really, it's creating a community. 

So I see inclusion or an inclusive education as our ability to kind of create a community where learner diversity is apparent, and is being attended to. And there it goes beyond attending to learner diversity in terms of academic needs. But also, we are creating a community of learners where there is social belonging so that students are feeling that they belong in that classroom. It's not just about providing accommodations and modifications, but it's really making opportunities for students to feel part of this inclusive community.

So I think all of those things go into the mindset and creating this community, recognizing learner diversity, and creating that social belonging. That’s what it means to me. And I think, in an ideal world, I always dream of the world where we no longer have to say, inclusive education, because all education, really, in my mind, should be inclusive. In other words, there's learner variability, not just students with IEPs,

but all students have learner diversity and variability. So it's just, doing our job by meeting their needs both academically and socially.

Arthur: Yes, it's so important. I love what you said about first, it starts within the mind of believing and then, also what you said of it’s not just something a box we check off like, Oh, ok, yeah, we're now inclusive…that’s that's what we did, and this is checked off. 

And then, it’s so true that you could have a room of 30 students or 20 students and every single person will learn in a different way.

And I've shared before that I remember being in class where what the teacher was saying and how the teacher was explaining it just did not make sense to me.

Priya: Yeah

Arthur: But if one of my classmates, really just said, ‘just don't pay attention to that, think of it this way.’

And they gave me a whole new way of thinking of something, and I was like, ‘Oh, wow, OK, I get it.’

And it goes back to the visual learners and the textile learners and things like that. So, it's just like some people need to see it and hear it at the same time. And then other people can just read it and comprehend certain things. So I agree with you as well, like looking forward to the day when we can just say it's education and not inclusive education. Where everybody is just there and learning and everybody's together. So, hopefully that day is coming soon.

Priya: I hope so.

Arthur: When I asked you to tell us about yourself, you gave a bit of a background about your educational background. Can you tell us when you at what point in your life did you realize you had an interest in inclusive education?

Priya:  Yeah, so I mean, I mentioned that when I was in my undergrad, I entered as an elementary major and then part way through my freshman year, our department presented us with this opportunity to get duly certified in elementary and special education. We would take a few additional summer courses. We would have to do an additional student teaching placement, but they kind of advocated as this is the future, and you really need you really should be learning, you know, how to teach varying groups of students, and so I thought, of course, why would I not want to be equipped with teaching students with varying needs?

And so that was, I would say, my absolute first introduction and I was immersed with it in and out. While I was teaching, I did get a chance to co-teach some of my classes, so got a taste of that. But I would say that my, kind of the turning point for me when I realized this is what I want to focus on is when I was doing my doctoral work at Teachers College and there I had, I mentioned I had the opportunity to supervise student teachers in the field, and it just so happened, with the logistics that I ended up supervising many student teachers who were in co-taught classrooms, or what  were labeled as inclusive education classrooms because of the make up of the students in the classroom,and really just kind of piqued

my interest in terms of this is really an art in itself, and a lot of the strategies and tools and things that they were learning and utilizing, I felt that, we fell short of some of the education that I had strictly in elementary education and really saw the need of it that being out in New York City public schools, entering so many schools and seeing the need and seeing the benefit. 

I think that that's when I really, not that I was ever doubting it, but I really just felt it was my passion to kind of advocate for this as much as possible. 

When I saw students who in any other school would have been in a self-contained classroom, succeed and participate and be so happy in these classrooms where they were included with their grade level peers that I thought, this is where my passion is, and I want to do everything I can to try to advocate for this. Whether it's through academia or consulting or whatnot. 

So, I think being in those classrooms, and seeing the success of the students in particular and talking to those teachers really piqued my interest.  And that's when I kind of said, All right, I'm going to help teachers get prepared to teach in an inclusive way, and that's kind of what drew me to this field.

Arthur: Yeah, I love asking that question because something in our life always clicks that leads us into what we're doing and in our life, and as you said, it's your passion and I'm always interested in hearing how people came to hold the positions that they have, and what part of their experience led them to where they are today. So that's really great. 

And just, how it was always, part of your education from undergrad through your graduate work and the doctorate program. It's just it was like it was there all the time. And then you're just like, ‘Okay, this is what I'm doing.’

Yeah, yeah,that's really great. 

Arthur: We've touched on this, I think, already, but can you share with us why you feel inclusive education is important?

Priya: Yeah, sure. So I think, I mentioned how I know that there's this definition out there that kind of defines it as a civil right, and I think that first and foremost, it's important because it is the right of these students to be educated in a way that mirrors our society and thinking about,

 you know, the fact that we hopefully are not segregating groups of students in our society and keeping them apart from their peers or their colleagues. I think that we owe that to our students for our schools to mirror the society that they're going to enter. I think that research upon research has shown the benefits of inclusion.

So there's really no reason to not advocate for inclusive education where students are taught along their grade level peers with accommodations and modifications as need be.

I'm not saying that there’s not a time when it doesn't make sense to pull a student out. Of course, there may be times when that is the best thing for them to meet a certain need, but for the most part, the needs can be met within the general ed classroom. 

And then I think, having those interactions with their peers in the social interactions, which I think are not talked about as much as the academics, understandably so, I guess. But, I have a little bit more of a passion and kind of trying to bring that to the forefront, too, and thinking about the social benefits that the students are having and engaging with their peers.

 And so, I think that it’s funny. I had a conversation with my soon to be fourth grader last year, when she noticed that some of her friends were getting taken out of the class to go to, it’s not a self-contained room, but to get some basic skills instruction, they call it.

And she was perplexed. She said, I don't understand, why can't they just do that in the classroom? Is there something special in that room? And it just led to this whole conversation with an eight year old at the time thinking, I don't get it. Why do they have to leave like she's my friend? I don't want her to leave and she's gone half the day. 

So it's the innocence of that I think just brings us back to it just makes sense. It just makes sense for them  to be educated alongside their grade level peers as much as possible and that their needs are being met in an equitable way. So again, getting what they need, but having access to that curriculum and to their peers. 

Arthur: It’s so amazing how kids understand those types of things, and they notice it. 

It was like, hey, why is she leaving this room, why can't you just do it here with everybody else?

Kids really pick up on those kinds of things, and that's so important to notice.

And it's really great. I think children are the first ones who understand the differences, and a lot of times they help educate the adults. 

Priya: We had this whole conversation about, I mean, we didn't  call it this till the end, but it was like equality versus equity. And she was commenting on how, some people do need help in reading and some people need help in math. And no, it doesn't make sense for me to see this teacher because, then that would take away from so-and-so who needs her support and learning how to read and all of that.

And it's helped me as a mom, because one of my kids, my youngest, gets car sick and so she gets to have gum when we go on long car rides, and that's always a fight. I'm like, Oh, equality versus equity, do you need the gum? You don't need the gum. So yes.

Arthur: Oh, my goodness. Yeah, kids, kids are really, really great in that way where they are, I think they're at times they're more accepting of their peers and their differences, their disabilities or whatever you would like to call them, and it's just like they want their friends to have the same experiences as they like and whatever it takes to get there, it's like, let's make it happen. 

Priya: Yeah, exactly. 

Arthur: So to wrap up this conversation, I just have one final question, and that is, can you tell us something that schools can do to become more inclusive? 

Priya: Yeah, I mean, that’s kind of the center of so much of our work that we're doing with the grant project and also, NJCIE. I think that for schools, the one thing that I see coming, in talking with administrators and being in so many schools in New Jersey, I think a lot of it and the schools that I've been in have already taken this step, is to offer the opportunity

 for teachers to have some professional development, some training, even just allowing time for conversations about these important topics like posing out there, what is inclusive education? What does that mean to you? 

Taking something like that that's just a conversation starter and getting that conversation going because, I think, as teachers, I remember it's go, go, go all day long. You're, grading papers, you're planning your lessons, you're looking at the standards and, planning units with your colleagues that you often don't have the time to kind of stop and think about, these questions that are guiding a lot of your philosophy and teaching.

I think that allowing those opportunities, whether you have the opportunity to do a more formal professional development or even just taking the time in a faculty meeting and pausing and thinking, alright, let's have this conversation and get this going because, I think that, coming back to this idea of inclusion as a mindset.

I think it is so important for administrators and schools to allow teachers to have those opportunities because. if it's presented as, this is something to do, again, I don't know if that's really accomplishing what we want to accomplish, because it comes back to, this is not a checklist that we're marking off that we have these students physically placed in the rooms and we have these, flexible seating and all of that contributes to it.

But it's more than that, and I think that for schools to take that time and allow teachers to reflect, to converse, to collaborate and to get professional development on how to put this into practice is really helpful.

I think that another thing is that, I hear from teachers a lot of the times is that they would love more professional development and thinking of something like co-teaching, which is one of the more common practices used, and, spending the time and learning about the benefits of the different models and seeing examples.

I was in one school that adapted a peer visit program, which was phenomenal. They took the time to allow teachers to visit their colleagues when they were doing a co-taught lesson in some way to kind of get ideas from and see what their colleagues are doing, which we never get to do. I mean, even though teaching is such a collaborative profession, I think it can also be a very isolating profession where you kind of stick to your room and don't get the opportunity to see what's going on outside your doors.

So I think providing those types of opportunities as much as possible for teachers to feel confident. I hear so many teachers say there is no way I can teach so-and-so, he's reading at a second grade level, and I'm a fifth grade teacher and I hear that all the time. But then, after saying, OK, well, tell me about the student, and tell me what you know about them, and let's take a look at your curriculum and see what we can do to accommodate and to modify, if need be.

And I think those are lost opportunities where we get caught up in thinking we can't and then it transforms into, not then presuming competence for the students. So I think essentially it is, offering that time for teachers to really get trained, converse and collaborate.

And then one other thing I want to add is I think that is sometimes overlooked is trying as much as possible to involve the families as well, as much as they would like to be involved. I think that you alluded to this in your comment, Arthur, about how thinking about learner variability and how certain students may just prefer learning in a different way. And I think, a lot of that we have to look at families as experts as well, and I think that they're bringing with them all these sons of knowledge from their houses, their cultures, their backgrounds and knowing their children.

Something as simple as a monthly check in where I saw a teacher do that, where they would send out a monthly check in and the families would fill it out, and it was something as simple as How's it going? Is there anything that you see as red flags? Anything we can do to make this experience better? Tell us one exciting thing that happened to your child this month. Something like that where you keep the line of communication open. Because I think, families are experts as well, and we need to draw on them to learn about the students and to involve them. 

One thing I saw recently, Shelley Moore, who I'm sure many of you know, posted an image a couple of weeks ago which just sat with me.

And she said, so often, I remember growing up walking into classrooms and there were these signs that said, all our welcome here. Right. So it was kind of like, everyone’s welcome. Come on in.

And she said, she had heard someone, and I don't know the sort of the exact source, but Shelley Moore retweeted it and said, what if we reframe that, and say this classroom was made with you in mind?

And I think that just sat with me and was so powerful, and really spoke to the need to get to know our students, and part of that is through the families and to think about who our students are and then design our classroom in a way that is fit for them to succeed.

So I really love that, and felt like it went along with this piece of what we need to do as teachers, as schools, as administrators and families can help us with that as well.

Arthur: Yes. And I think throughout our conversation, the word collaboration has come up a few times, and as part of that collaboration, as you mentioned, the family to be a part of that. Because, they do have those behind the scenes clips and views into the students life. Like you said, even cultural differences. And that plays a huge role in learning for a lot of people, for a lot of different reasons.

So including the family is definitely a very big thing. And I love the This classroom is created with you in mind. That's a really great way, because it really is framed differently and it really made me think like, Oh, wow, that's so different than, all our welcome here. It takes it to a different level. So that's very great. 

Very great quote there.

Arthur: Priya, thank you so much for your time today. I really enjoyed our conversation and getting to know a little bit about your story and of your interests and your family. And then also thank you for sharing the knowledge that you have in the area of inclusive education. It has been such a great pleasure to talk with you today and to hear what you had to share. So thank you for your time and I really appreciate it.

Priya: Thank you so much for having me. This has been fun. I was nervous to do a podcast, but it was fun, and I'm excited to hear the other episodes as well.

Arthur: Yeah. thank you again

 and have a great day.

Priya: Thank you. Take care. 

Arthur: You, too.

Arthur: We thank you for listening to this episode of the Inclusion Think Tank podcast. This podcast is brought to you by New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education. Be sure to subscribe on YouTube or Spotify. And don't forget to follow us on social media @NJCIE

Until next time.

On this episode of the Inclusion Think Tank Podcast we welcome my guest Wendy Lacey. Wendy and I discuss inclusive education from a parent’s perspective, and she shares the benefits her family saw from having her daughter who has Downs Syndrome in an inclusive classroom setting

Episode Transcript

Arthur: Welcome to the Inclusion Think Tank podcast brought to you by New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education, NJCIE. As the name suggests, this podcast will discuss inclusive education and most importantly, why it works.

On this episode of the Inclusion Think Tank podcast, I welcome my guest, Wendy Lacey. Wendy and I discuss inclusive education from a parent's perspective, and the benefits her family saw by having her daughter, who has Down syndrome in an inclusive education setting.

Arthur: I would like to welcome everyone back to another episode of the Inclusion Think Tank podcast brought to you by New Jersey Coalition for an Inclusive Education.

I am your host, Arthur Aston, and I am happy to have my guest, Wendy Lacy, on the show with us today. So, Wendy, welcome to the podcast and I'm excited for our conversation. 

Wendy: And I'm so happy to be here, Arthur, thank you for the invitation.

Arthur: Oh, yes, you're welcome. So to get started, can you share with us what does inclusive education, in general, what does that mean to you and how would you define that? 

Wendy: So by way of background, I have four children all now teenagers, and one of my children has a disability.

She has Down syndrome, and she's been educated in an inclusive setting since she was young. And so, when I think of inclusive education and my family's experience, I think about it as being as providing opportunities for students with disabilities to learn alongside their peers in their own neighborhoods and in their own communities.

And I think inclusive education also has an important component of giving students and educators the tools they need to make that successful education happen in that setting. I think inclusive education means more than physically being in the same building.

It means it's more than just having someone like my daughter being the same recess as her typically developing peers or in the same class or music class. It's really about giving the students meaningful opportunities to get to know each other, to learn alongside each other, and to learn from each other.

Arthur: That’s so true, and it goes beyond the classroom, as you said, to the playgrounds, the recess time, it goes way beyond just the classroom setting and the learning in the classroom, because, as someone myself with a disability, it’s nice when I'm able to fit in.

Even now as an adult, it's nice when I'm able to just be incorporated into a group of people of my peers at a concert or someplace like that where I like to go, or at the movie theater or something like that.

It goes way beyond the classroom and it sets up a situation from early in someone's life to what they will face throughout their life in adulthood for situations where everybody is expected to be in the same place at the same time and interact with each other.

So it starts in the classroom, but it does go way beyond that setting for sure. 

Wendy: And you're right. Yeah. Inclusive Education really sets the setting for what our society should be like overall for everyone. 

Arthur: Yes, definitely. Wow! That was good. That was really good. 

So, when you were answering that first question, you mentioned that your daughter has Down syndrome and that she was in an inclusive classroom setting through her education time and time in school.

As a parent, what were some of the benefits that you saw that your daughter was gaining from being in an inclusive classroom setting? 

Wendy: So, you know, it's hard to say. She's 17 now, so Evelyn is 17 years old and she's going to be a junior at Montclair High School.

When I say that Evelyn has been in an inclusive setting since she was a baby, what I mean by that is from the very beginning, she attended and did her therapy sessions at the Ben Samuels Center at Montclair State University.

We sent her to typical preschool. So really from the beginning, we embraced, as a family, the philosophy of inclusion. And a lot of that came from speaking to our parental peers who had children with disabilities, who are older than ours, who gave us the advice of think about where you want your child to be 20, 30 years from now, and then set the path based on that. 

And so, having Evelyn grow up to be as independent as possible is really what made us believe in the importance of inclusive education. 

So it's hard to say. Obviously, It's hard to say exactly what her life would be like if she didn't do inclusive education. But I am very, very confident that learning alongside her peers in her own community has helped her develop a sense of belonging, a sense of pride and a steady path towards independence.

From the very beginning, she was able to observe and model her peers and learn about what the appropriate social interactions look like. Being in an inclusive setting has helped us as parents set our own expectations very high for her.

Made us understand what she could accomplish if given the right tools and support, made us understand why it was important to have her be a part of her own community. Have other families see her at school events, know that she belongs here too and should feel welcome.

As simple as this, we wanted as a family to be able to go to a restaurant, for example, in Montclair and have other children, other families give her a wave because they recognized her and knew her and not look at her because she was different.

And so, inclusive education is a lot more than just about what happens in the classroom. It's about being a part of the fabric of your community. 

So as parents, being in an inclusive setting has also helped us realize what we need to do to shape our future. Now that she's in high school, we see her peers getting ready for college, getting ready for careers and have those conversations. And you know what? Evelyn's path might ultimately veer from theirs over the long term. But those same basic considerations are happening, right.

Will she have additional schooling? What will she do for work? What's going to make her happy, where she's going to live? And so, our embracing inclusive education really has set us on this path of how to make her the independent young woman who is happy in life and giving us the tools to do that.

Arthur: I love that you use the word independent and independence multiple times. It reminded me of my own parents with me and that, I think that is what every parent strives for, how they can help their child achieve their best potential and their highest level of accomplishments and the independence, whatever that looks like for that individual. 

I also love what you said about being able to go out and having students and other families wave to Evelyn and say, ‘Hi’, ‘Hey, she's in my class.’

That’s what children look for when they go out and their friends. And having her in the inclusive setting in the classroom, that really, does help out with those types of situations outside of the classroom in the world.

And that, yeah, that was really cool. It really reminded me of my own parents there. So I kept smiling. 

Wendy: You know what’s nice, too? When I think about what's going on right now in our family. Evelyn is at two weeks of sleep-away camp at Frost Valley YMCA at the YMCA camp in upstate New York. And this is maybe her fourth time doing that, a two week sleep-away program. And it is bittersweet, I mean, to see her get there. There’s lots of kids in Montclair who go to camp there, and so to pull up there for drop-off and see families we know and again, have them give a big greeting to her. It’s really, it's something special. But boy, I miss her at sleep away camp.

Sometimes I'm like is this independence thing, OK? Because I really miss her. Those are tools I like to think, or let me say, I'm confident in my thinking that the fact that we've had her in an inclusive setting has given her that confidence that she can do something like this, just like her peers are doing. Enjoying this kind of camp experience, enjoying dance classes in town, film classes, things outside the classroom. But she got that confidence to be able to do those things from being amongst her peers in the classroom.

Arthur: Yeah, that's really great. And two weeks at sleep-away camp.

Wendy: I want to do that. Right? Grown up camp, please. 

Arthur: Yes. Is there a sleep away camp for adults? Like just for two weeks?

I might even take a week at this point, just step by step away and be in nature for a couple of days like that would be that would be great at this time, for sure.

Yes, definitely sounds like the dream. 

Arthur: So, you and your family started Cornerstone Montclair. Can you tell us what that is and how it came to be, and about some of the great things that you all do there?

Wendy: Sure. Cornerstone Montclair is a business that's built around the philosophy that community inclusion is critically important for our society in general. In order for the benefits of inclusive education to be fully realized, right. There's a continuum here.

It's not going to help if Evelyn and her peers with disabilities are in inclusive education settings and then they age out of the public school system. And then there's nothing for them to do, right? So inclusion is a continuum.

It does not stop after you leave the public school system. And that is the ultimate goal, I think, for all of us. And so, my family established Cornerstone Montclair almost four years ago. It's a philosophy based on inclusion, but also a physical place.

So we own a small commercial building in Upper Montclair. There are five businesses that take up space in the building. In order to be here, you have to support and do something actively to support the philosophy of inclusion.

So we have five businesses here who do something for that goal. I'll give you two concrete examples. One of the businesses here is the Inclusive Movement Center. I am going to speak about them a little bit, and some of the things I say are based on pre-Covid experiences.

So the Inclusive Movement Center is a healthy business and running now, but before Covid, they were very popular for their ninja warrior classes. So they would have I think they had almost 20 different classes a week. Each one of their classes mostly were made up of typically developing students.

However, they are award-winning, an adaptive physiology, in every one of their classes would have several children who had disabilities integrated in with their peers. They have fantastic equipment and fantastic instructors that enabled fun classes that were open and able to accommodate kids of all abilities. 

And in addition to that, the Inclusive Movement Center, also had interns with and without disabilities working with them. So there they are up and running again after the worst of the pandemic, but it’s a little different, obviously, because much smaller size classes that are working together.

And then there's the General Store, which my family also owns. And the store is a retro style gift store. And it is a lot of fun. We carry a little of everything. We appeal to a wide range of people, customers.

And then we also hire, I have about 10 or 11 employees right now. Half of them have disabilities. Mostly high school and college students. And then the other half don't have disabilities. And I don't like to say that I use the buddy system, but I do like to overlap staff when possible so that they're learning from each other, and just as importantly, building relationships together. So that is the kind of thing that's going on in this building with all the businesses here. We also have a community room that's used for a wide range of things.

I do want to pause and say that I am careful to try and make sure the image of this building is not one that it's a building for quote unquote special needs kids or just for people with disabilities.

I like to say this is a building that has a lot of stuff going on for a wide range of people. It just makes sure that that wide range of people includes people and is especially welcome and accessible to people who have disabilities.

So my community room, which is the room I’m in now. Yes, we have social skills groups. We've had support groups. And here we've had support groups that have nothing to do with people with disabilities. We have senior citizen yoga that takes place here, our classes.

So it varies from time to time, but it's a lot of different things. One of the stories I love is we had a Valentine's Day activity here for students. This is going back maybe two years now, and it was an activity where parents would sign up and we had staff here helping children make Valentine's Day cards and again, for all abilities. And one parent reached out, very grateful, because she said it was one of the only activities that her two young daughters were able to do together.

And one of her daughters had a significant disability and one didn't. And she said there aren't a lot of places where she feels like they can be together for an activity. And our goal is to not be the only business like that, but to be a role model for other businesses.

And I do want to clarify that Cornerstone Montclair is not a nonprofit. I'd like to say we're a self-sustaining building, but I don't believe you have to be a nonprofit to do the right thing to include everyone in your community.

Arthur: Yeah, I love all of the work that you're doing, and I live in South Jersey, but the second I can get up there, I would love to come and check out the space, it sounds like a great place.

And I love what you've said, that it's not just for people with disabilities, but it's a space for everybody that also includes those with disabilities, because I always like to say people with disabilities are in your communities.

They are in your towns, they’re in your neighbors, and they're going to the stores and the movies and the malls that you go to, and there needs to be space for them to be included in and in places like yours. So it's really great. 

Wendy: I would also add that I also tell people and I hear this from people all the time. I think the last statistic that I read was 20 percent of families will experience disability directly in their life, whether it's an individual themselves or someone that they love.

And so, everyone is going to be touched with these type of challenges throughout their life or a large portion of the society will be. And I hear that a lot from people who come in. I've met some amazing families and amazing people just come in and said, oh, I heard about what you're doing and I can relate to this because my father, my son, my daughter, my cousin and everyone has the story, and in a lot of ways, this building, this business has been a connector of people. I've literally had somebody come in and start talk to me about their inclusive education experience and then have a woman across the room in the store say, oh, I'm moving here from Brooklyn and I'm interested in inclusive education. Can we talk? And those two people go outside and sit on a bench together and chat. And I love that, right? because, that's what it's about. That's really building community, right? 

And helping people and being an informal resource for people. You know, one of the other things I want to say about the store that I don't think I mentioned was that I go out of my way to carry products in artwork made by people with disabilities.

And that is also just been such a fun way to meet different people from across the country and all over the world. I have artwork by local artists. I carry dog treats from a young woman and entrepreneur and Milwaukie cookies from a baker in North Carolina who has a disability eye all over the place, chocolates from a young woman in Georgia who has a disability, bath bombs—And so that's all integrated in to what's here. And sometimes customers know that and sometimes they don't. And when they're checking out, I say, hey, do you know that this entrepreneur is such an incredible entrepreneur?

And look at this challenge they have as well. People are really interested to hear those stories.

Arthur: That is such a great thing to raise that awareness about disabilities and the accomplishments of those and the talents of those who have disabilities.

Because I always say and I always hear that, my disability is physical. My disability is a mobility disability. So it's ‘Oh, he can't walk.’ And, it's always what they can't do. People with disabilities, ‘they can't see.’

They can't walk. But it's a great way. What you're doing is a great way to focus on the positive, the flip side of things, and say like, yeah, they have these challenges they face. These are, these obstacles because of their limitations that are created by their disability.

But they also have these talents of doing artwork, creating bath bombs, and chocolates and things like that. So that's really, really cool. And I always love hearing stories because I am not talented in many ways.

So I'm always excited to hear of anybody's great ideas that they have with products that they can create. 

Wendy: Yeah, well, you're talented at this. 

Arthur: Thank you. 

Wendy: I also know one of the things, one of the values that I have up on the wall is empowerment, and I love buying these products by people with disabilities. 

One of the things I really try to avoid is a pity party. Like I don't want customers saying, ‘oh, this is so sweet,’ and this—you know what? It's not sweet.

This person is making a living and has their own business and you can give them your money. Right? I mean, I think it's about respect and empowerment. And along those lines, I'm also, I don't have volunteers really.

On occasion, I have people volunteer for a special event or a special project. But I really do try to steer away from that, because I think employment—paid employment—is important. And that is part of empowerment and respect.

Arthur: It is I love the empowerment and I love the fact that you said you stay away from the pity parties like that's so important to keep things positive. And also the paid employment. That is a huge thing for people with disabilities, for sure. So it's great that you are able to provide that for them.

One of the other things about Cornerstone Montclair is that you have mission partners that are businesses, educators, and service providers. 

Why would you say those are important partnerships to have within the community? 

Wendy: Well, I think shared values just helped get things done in a more efficient and stronger way. I mean, we send a stronger message together about the role that people disabilities can lead in their community.

There's a lot of synergies that happen here, too. So I'll give you an example of how we work together. Again, we're all separate businesses here, but I have an adult who's on the autism spectrum who just started working here, and he's particularly good working with customers.

And the speech therapist upstairs was working with one of her clients to develop a roleplaying script about let's pretend we work in the store. And this is how she's helping to develop social skills and speech skills.

And my employee was asked to be a consultant on this video that they were doing. And he was great. He's like, ‘that's not what I would say to a customer. I would say this or I would suggest that.’

And it was just a great way, a great reminder by having businesses with shared values and goals in the building, that we can play off each other and really build things based on the synergies that sometimes just pop up from being in the same place, in the same time.

But mostly it's about being with groups of people and professionals who really agree that providing opportunities and platforms for people with disabilities to feel fulfilled and welcome in their own communities is important. 

Arthur: Yeah, you've definitely as you mentioned, you've taken inclusive education outside of the classroom setting, and into the real world and into the community, which is so needed. 

It's something that's definitely needed. And for you to be, you know, the first in your community to do such a thing, it's really, you know, it's great to be that role model and that setting that standard for what's capable from other businesses to do, so That's really great. I'm really excited that Cornerstone Montclair exists. That really, really makes me happy for sure. 

Wendy: Can’t wait to have you here.
Arthur: Yes. So to wrap up our conversation today, what would you say is one thing that can be done in order to better improve inclusive education?

Wendy: Well, I think as a society, we just have to be committed to train new teachers, to genuinely embrace inclusion and give them the tools they need to do that. I think we all know how hard teachers work. We need to support them and give them the tools that they need for that to happen.

But I think that has to happen when teachers are in school themselves, learning how to be educators. It's got to be really a requirement in part of the fabric of their own education. And again, the supports that they need to have that happen.

Arthur: Yes, like you said, it has to start before they get into the classroom so that they know they know what it is, they know what it's supposed to look like. And I love that answer.

It's so true, because if they're learning about it in their college courses and their other student teaching experiences, they're able to implement it whenever they become teachers. That's really great. Right. Yeah.

Well, Wendy, I thank you for this conversation. It was great getting to talk to you. It's nice to meet you virtually. And I look forward to continuing our conversation offline and figuring out ways that I can be involved with you all there. It's really, really great what you're doing. So thank you so much for sharing your story and your family story and what you're doing up there in Montclair. And I look forward to talking with you again soon. 

Wendy: Well, thanks for the opportunity, it was so nice to speak with you, and NJCIE is lucky to have you on board.

Arthur: Oh, well, thank you so much. I appreciate that. And again, I appreciate this conversation. Have a great day. 

Wendy: You, too. 

Arthur: We thank you for listening to this episode of the Inclusion Think Tank podcast. This podcast is brought to you by New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education.

Be sure to subscribe on YouTube or Spotify. And don't forget to follow us on social media @NJCIE. Until next time.

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Transcript: The Inclusion Think Tank Podcast is presented by New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education (NJCIE). This podcast will feature conversations with inclusive education experts and advocates to discuss the impact of inclusion in schools. It serves as a resource for educators, school administrators, and families who are seeking additional knowledge about topics related to inclusive education. Established in 1989 by professionals and parents, NJCIE is a 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization that serves parents and educators in New Jersey.

For over 25 years, NJCIE has been the only nonprofit organization in New Jersey with the sole focus on inclusive education and provides needed expertise to schools and educators on how to include students with disabilities into school communities and classrooms with dignity and equality. NJCIE currently serves over 100 school districts in the state of New Jersey. NJCIE supports inclusive education for all students as a fundamental civil right and views inclusion as a means to creating an equitable, socially just democratic society. 

I am Arthur Aston, and I will be your host for The Inclusion Think Tank Podcast. My educational background is in psychology, and I have 8 years experience of working with nonprofits that serve the disability community. The topic of inclusive education is of importance to me, because I was born with spina bifida, a diagnosis that impacts my mobility. I am looking forward to facilitating these conversations that will engage you, our listeners, with the hope of expanding our knowledge about inclusive education.