The Inclusion Think Tank

On today's episode, we welcome our guests Corinne Catalano, Eva Kovacs and Roseanne Yezzo. Corinne, Eva, Rosanne and I discussed the perspective of the early childhood educator as it relates to inclusive education.

Arthur: This is the Inclusion Think Tank podcast brought to you by New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education, NJCIE, where we talk about inclusive education, why it works, and how to make it happen. On today's episode, we welcome our guests Corinne Catalano, Eva Kovacs and Roseanne Yezzo.

Corinne is assistant director for consultation services at the Center for Autism and Early Childhood Mental Health at Montclair State University. Eva and Rosanne are lead infant and early childhood consultation specialists at the Center for Autism and Early Childhood Mental Health at Montclair State University.

Corinne, Eva, Rosanne and I discussed the perspective of the early childhood educator as it relates to inclusive education.

I would like to welcome everyone back to another episode of the Inclusion Think Tank Podcast. This podcast is brought to you by the New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education.

My name is Arthur Aston and I am your host for the podcast. And today I have three guests with me for this episode, and we are going to talk about the importance of starting inclusion at the preschool level.

Arthur: So I would like to welcome my guests to the podcast, Corinne Catalano, Eva Kovacs and Roseanne Yezzo. So thank you all for joining me today.

Corinne: Thanks for having us.

Eva: Thank you for having us.

Arthur: Yes. So I would like to start off with allowing you all to introduce yourselves.

I will start with Corinne, go to Eva, and then Rosanne. So if you could introduce yourselves and tell us something. Some things that are fun and interesting about yourselves.

Corinne: Sure hi, I'm Corinne Catalano. I am the Assistant Director for consultation services at Montclair State University's Center for Autism and Early Childhood Mental Health.

I am the project lead for a partnership that we have with the New Jersey Department of Education and the New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education. We call that project the New Jersey Inclusive Education Technical Assistance Project, or NJIETA.

And our mission really is to expand inclusive education for children with disabilities across New Jersey in pre-K through 12th grade. So I'm thrilled to be part of this podcast and have some of my colleagues here from this project today.

Eva: Hi, everyone. I'm Eva Kovacs. I'm an inclusion facilitator with the New Jersey Inclusion Education Technical Assistance Project, and also lead infant and early childhood consultation specialist at the Center for Autism and Early Childhood Mental Health at Montclair State University.

I've been in the early childhood field for about 30 years now. I was an elementary school teacher previously in Hungary, and then I became a preschool teacher here, working in the state funded preschool classroom in New Jersey for 11 years before I moved to New York and worked as an early childhood coach, and later with the universal preschool programs there.

I was working as a master teacher before I became a coach for Montclair State University.

Roseanne: Hello everyone. My name is Rosanne Yezzo, and I fill a similar role to Eva. Lead and infant and early childhood consultation specialist.

Prior to joining Montclair and this project, I spent 36 years in public education, started as a special education teacher, and then I moved on to being a learning disabilities teacher consultant with a child study team, and I completed evaluations for children, turning three all the way up through exiting eighth grade.

But I case managed that age three through fourth grade population during my time as a L.D. And then I moved into administration and became an administrator in our preschool program. I became the director when we took part in the expansion that was offered through the state and we expanded our pre-K.

Roseanne: So, it ended up being a perfect place, as is this position where I get to merge preschool and special ed. So it really brings to areas that are near and dear to my heart into one place, so it's been an exciting ride.

Arthur: Great. Thank you all so much. I am very happy to have you all on the podcast today. I've met you all in person for the first time at the conference in June and we shared some other virtual interactions throughout the last year with some of the other conferences that we've had.

So, I would like to get started into this conversation. And the first question I have is:

Arthur: Can you explain what is preschool, and why you feel it is important to start inclusion at the preschool level?

Eva: So in the United States, typically we mean by preschool, an early childhood setting for three, four and five year olds

before they enter kindergarten. High quality preschool settings support inclusion in many ways. They use a flexible, play based curriculum which supports the development of the whole child in all developmental areas. In preschool, we are equally focused on children's social, emotional, physical, language, and cognitive development.

So when you go to a preschool classroom and see many interesting areas with quality materials that the children can touch and feel and manipulate, you will know that in this classroom, the children are encouraged to move around, to explore a wide variety of material use and learn through their senses through their many senses, which is really how all young children learn at this age.

Eva: In addition to that, we carefully select the materials, different types of materials to organize the wide range of developmental levels in the classroom. Example; we have different types of puzzles. Puzzles, those chunky puzzles with the knob.

So children who have not developed fine motor skills and leap as much yet as the older ones, they can still manipulate the puzzle pieces. And we have interlocking puzzles, floor puzzles, puzzles with less and more pieces to address the different abilities of the children in the classroom.

The teachers and the staff work with the administrator to create a bad balance schedule so the children participate in teacher directive and child initiated activities in large groups. small groups, they have opportunities for quiet and active time throughout the entire day.

This schedule allows the preschool staff to individualize their interactions with the children so they can be responsive to their needs.

For example, during choice time teachers circulate around the classroom and spend time in the different interest areas to scaffold children's learning individually or in small groups.

There are many opportunities throughout the day for one on one interactions and learning for a small group, which is also essential for inclusive classrooms. So all these qualities that I'm trying to explain are really important for inclusive classrooms, but it is also typical in high quality early childhood settings.

Eva: In many pre-schools, we are also moving towards using an authentic assessment which looks at children on a developmental continuum, meaning that even two children who are the same age can be defined as the developmental stage, which of course changes over the year.

We use a strength based approach in schools to identify and support children's needs and how to meet them. The assessment is embedded into the daily schedule so children can demonstrate in their natural environment what they understand and what they can do.

We are not really focused on fixing the children, rather identify, where they are mentally and how to take them to the next level. This approach to preschool education recognizes this children and comes to us with a wide variety of abilities, and our job is to meet them where they are, developmentally.

So in a preschool classroom, we must differentiate our interactions, the activities that are available to meet every child that they are. So we naturally do this with every child already. The earlier we start to include children with disabilities, the earlier they will be surrounded by peers who can model communication, language skills, social interactions, how to make friends, and these are very important skills for the future for every child.

Eva: Inclusion is also beneficial for their typically developing peers. Since this is the time in young children to develop empathy, how to share, take turns and other social skills as well.

We talk a lot about feelings in preschool classrooms. Have children identify their own feelings and their friends. What makes them happy or sad? Young children pick up these social cues from their environment during this age very easily and love to help each other.

When I was a preschool teacher, I had a little boy in my classroom who had ASD, and he always wanted to sit on the same chair. And in a high quality program, you don't have assigned chairs for the children because you want them to mingle with everybody. You want to sit wherever they want to sit and make friends during snack time, lunchtime during group activities so that the children are sitting wherever they want to sit.

Except for this little boy, he wanted to sit always on the same chair. And he became so upset and sometimes even aggressive that somebody would sit on that chair. So we gathered the children together, and I asked them, what can we do about it?

Eva: And they offered a solution; we can make a label for him. We're going to put his name on the chair so everybody knows this is his chair. So it is just amazing that at this age, when we start inclusion early, how children accept each other as they are with different abilities.

And I think that's why we have to start this as early as we can.

Arthur: Yeah, I. I love what you said about meeting them where they are and figuring out how to get them to the next level. Like that's what it's really about.

And yeah, it's amazing how kids really learn and kids understand so much at, like you said, such an early age, and I've shared with you all the experiences that I have had with some of my friends, their children, and at a very young ages, it's just like, Oh, okay, so those are your crutches or that's your wheelchair. All right, no problem. Can we go to the park now or can we go do this now? Okay, cool. So it's really true that children pick up on things and really understand things at such an early age.

So it is important to introduce inclusion at the preschool level and so that way when they get older, it will be something just regular for them, something normal for them to see in their everyday classrooms.

Arthur: So the next question I have is about the Abbott decision. Can you explain what the Abbott decision is and what have we learned from it? How has it informed preschool, the preschool expansion aid funding and how does preschool expansion support that inclusion?

It's a very detailed question, but I know you all can handle that.

Corinne: Sure. So, just sort of playing off what Eva said. It's so important we know and we've learned through with the data that's been collected that children being in high quality educational environments is really, really critical to their future academic and social successes later on in their life, and so but we also know that not everyone has equal access to high quality environments, and so that's really where the Abbott decision came in.

And there's a long, very complex history to the Abbott rulings. But basically, if we think about that through the Abbott rulings, New Jersey was the first state to mandate early education starting at age three for children, what we consider at risk of entering kindergarten or primary school, cognitively or socially behind their more advantaged peers. And so, prior to Abbott ruling, the state school funding was found to be unconstitutional as it applied to equity and children in poor urban districts.

So really what went on with this ruling was that stakeholders came together and really redid funding models for the state. But, part of that and it wasn't all about preschool, but the piece that we're going to focus on was about how it helped to create high quality preschool programing for children from historically underfunded communities.

So several community stakeholders needed to be involved, right. To ensure that this the what we consider the essential elements of high quality, well-planned preschool programs would be put in place and would be put in place well.

Corinne: So those elements include things like qualified teachers, smaller class sizes and standards based developmentally appropriate curriculums for preschoolers. So these elements that were put in place through the Abbott decision really became a national model for high quality early childhood education in the U.S..

And the different stakeholders that came together included things like, different educational organizations, families and parents were involved in that. Head Start programs and different community preschool programs, school districts, of course, and higher ed institutions getting involved in helping to provide, you know, education and training to expand the cadre of high quality teachers.

Of course, the New Jersey Department of Education and the Division of Early Childhood Education played a big role in facilitating this collaboration among all those stakeholders that were involved. And their objectives really were, when this all started, was for universal access.

And we talk a lot about that, that everyone needs to be able to have access to these high quality classrooms, but they need to be high quality right, and also improving the quality of preschool, setting sort of these standards for what does it mean for it to be a high quality program, but also then collecting data to be able to tell this story of why this is important and how it did create different learning opportunities that sustained children throughout the course of their education.

Corinne: So there's been many, many studies. Most of them, I think that I've seen have really been done by N.E.A.R., the National Institute of Early Ed Research out of Rutgers.

But one I'll just say, you know, different studies show the benefits of pre-K for three and four year olds and found things for those students who attended those two years of preschool programing, their standardized test scores improved, and the achievement gap between those children and their more advantaged peers really closed and in some cases narrowed by 20 to 40% through fifth grade and beyond in other studies.

So it's really that data and that evidence of the importance of this early childhood, high quality again, I'll stress early childhood education that led to us having what now I think we all celebrate is the continuation of the preschool expansion, where more and more districts in New Jersey who have families who need access to high quality early childhood education for their young children, that funding is being put in place. And I think, again, as Eva explained, if we want to have children who have developmental delays and disabilities succeed in these classrooms, we need to make sure that those are high quality classrooms.

Corinne: One of the things that those of us who worked in early childhood special education for years and years, I think were always frustrated by was except for those Abbott districts in so many other places and because of of IDEA, special education, law; children, three, four and five had access to special education if they qualified, but there really wasn't a place for them to be included with their peers without IEPs or children who were developing language typically or developing typically. So they were historically placed in what we call self-contained classrooms because that's all there was in the district.

And now we have more and more opportunities both through the preschool expansion and then some other for the non funded district, for some tuition based programs, for more and more children to have opportunities to be in high quality general education classrooms and with their peers so that inclusion can start early.

Arthur: This conversation is bringing up a lot of memories for me because I remember being in preschool at a school specifically for children with disabilities. Around ages three and four, just being there with the other students that have disabilities.

And so it’s good and always great to hear how things have evolved since then. I grew up in the eighties, in the early eighties. So to see how far things have come and how inclusion has become more of a topic of conversation and a big thing that people are looking into changing and having more inclusion is always a great thing to hear and to see how it has evolved over time.

Arthur: The last question that I have for you all is can you share how preschool assists with leveling the playing field when it comes to the differences in vocabulary and play, and also the importance of communication and the social aspects of preschool?

Roseanne: Sure. So, going off of what both Eva and Corinne said, the preschool expansion just did, that whole part of the expansion really created a system that provided a lot of support. So in a district that's receiving the funding, you get extra folks like a master teacher and a CPIS, a switch as a Community Parent Involvement Specialist. And they have particular roles in that program and they bring certain expertise.

And I think in just starting from that place of having those extra folks who are trained to really look at development helps us to know or at least have a deeper conversation about maybe who should move towards evaluation and classification and who would benefit from all the extra things that the master teacher, the CPIS, the curriculum, all these pieces that help us to really sort out.

So preschool is a great place to provide support if it's needed, but it's also a place we have to be careful that we don't over classify. So when I was a learning consultant on a child study team, the most children I ever declassified came out of preschool.

So they make these great gains and we get in there early and we can help with the things that they need to go forward. So it really is, but because of the way that it's set up, we have the preschool guidelines, we have the curriculum as Eva said, classrooms are small. We don't go over 15 students. You have a teacher and an assistant.

Roseanne: The environment is key. What does that environment look like? And you have that master teacher to really help you work on that environment and make changes so you can go into a preschool class and each environment will be similar, but not exactly the same. If you have a child that really needs some space where they need quiet and they need to be separated, we can do that. We can try to really help to do that.

So following best practices as they're laid out with this, with the funding and with the preschool guidelines following the curriculum, using the environment and having the right kinds of supplies in that class really help children to thrive.

So things like open ended art, so we have an easel, we have art open every day. We have paint and children can easily access that. And just over my time in the preschool, I could see children who were budding artists, you know, they just gravitate towards that art easel.

But at the same time, developing a love for school and the program, learning to share that. Because if you're coming to school and you know you want to be in the block area every day, that's a possibility, and we definitely want to broaden the horizons of all the children when everyone can visit the art area, but we don't force them.

Roseanne: They're little and they're so we make the learning about them and their choice and the teacher direction part is sometimes hard to see when you go into a classroom because really the classroom is all about them.

And then we have the Community Parent Involvement Specialist that will get trained in Pyramid, which is our model that supports positive behavior. We stay away from time out seats and naughty stools and things like that that we've all heard in our days as educators and really look at building interactions between teachers and children from the second they step off the school bus or come to the classroom door. Teachers are there to greet them, you know, and during COVID. We had to change a little bit of that. There weren't always the high fives, but we went to elbow bumps, just something that says, you're welcome here, you're loved here, and children naturally thrive in that environment.

So those children that are struggling, developmentally, communication, we're really going to target where they need some help with the curriculum and the data collection tools that we use. So it really serves everyone.

You have the supports, It's a welcome place for all children, and you have the expertise from some of those other folks like the master teacher. But the classroom itself and the environment has to be high quality as Corinne was saying, and when it is really almost any child will thrive in there, and the ones that are struggling, we have those folks to help us to really tailor what they need to be successful there. So I think just the whole idea of it promotes communication and social skills. And for children that are maybe struggling with some developmental things and letters and numbers, that comes later.

Roseanne: If you can build those social skills, then that communication and that love of school, then we can get children through the other tougher aspects as they move forward. But so that's our basics. And I think if that's what our classrooms look like, any child can be part of that.

It's not that you must be able to do this. To do that. You can be an artist, you can be a builder, you can be a bike rider, you can be whatever it is that you love, we'll find something in that classroom to make you want to keep trying and keep plugging along.

So I think just the way that everything was set up over the years as a result of the Abbott district and now with this push for high quality preschool programs, just really lends itself to success for any child and a great place to start with.

Inclusion on a play based curriculum is, is, is just what children need to kind of thrive in and not get a really super good start in school.

Arthur: Yeah. When you were talking, I was thinking of how you said, like, the interactions and communication. I think you can ask just about anybody, and they can tell you about a teacher that made an impact in their life because, when you have a tough subject if a teacher can really connect with you in such a way where you can understand it.

And they really tried to work with you. I think that, like I said, you can ask anybody about a specific teacher and they can tell you why that teacher made a difference, and most of the time it will be because they got to know the person themselves individually, and really developed the relationship and communicated with that person.

Roseanne: The academics are good, but you're right, the interactions, if those are there, you'll get to the other stuff. Children feel welcomed and loved and like school, I think that's a really great start and we can give them that.

And Eva or Corinne said it, they're so accepting at that young age. So we start that and we just. Everybody's here, you know?

Arthur: So thank you all for joining me today. I really appreciate you taking the time and taking the time with the process of developing these questions with me.

Thank you so much. It was great to work with you all and to learn about preschool and the current state of preschool and high quality, which is something that I'll definitely take with me from this conversation. The importance of high quality preschool is so important.

So, I appreciate you all and I will hopefully be in touch and seeing you and working with you again soon.

Corinne: Thanks.

Roseanne: Thank you, Arthur. It was great.

Eva: Thank you Arthur.

Arthur: We thank you for listening to this episode of the Inclusion Think Tank Podcast.

This podcast is brought to you by New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education, NJCIE. Be sure to subscribe on YouTube, Spotify or Apple Podcasts. And don't forget to follow us on social media @NJCIE. Until next time.

On this episode of the Inclusion Think Tank Podcast, I welcome my guest Dr. Jessica Bacon. During our conversation today, we will discuss the Increasing Access to College project that she co-founded at Montclair as it relates to inclusive education and why it is important to begin teaching inclusion and anti-ableism curricula in early childhood classrooms.

Arthur: This is the Inclusion Think Tank podcast brought to you by New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education NJCIE, where we talk about inclusive education, why it works, and how to make it happen.

On today's episode, we welcome our guest, Dr. Jessica Bacon. Dr. Bacon is associate professor at Montclair State University in the Department of Teaching and Learning, where she teaches classes on inclusive education and disability studies. During our conversation today, we will discuss the Increasing Access to College project that she co-founded at Montclair as it relates to inclusive education and why it is important to begin teaching inclusion and anti-ableism curricula in early childhood classrooms.

Arthur: Welcome back to another episode of the Inclusion Think Tank podcast. I am your host Arthur Aston, and this podcast is brought to you by New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education. I am happy to welcome my guest today, Dr. Jessica Bacon.

Dr. Bacon is an assistant professor of teaching and learning at Montclair State University. Jessica, welcome to the podcast today. I'm looking forward to our conversation.

Jessica: Thank you. Happy to be here.

Arthur: Yes. So you and I met briefly over the summer in person at the NJCIE summer conference and Dr. Pria Lalvani, she introduced us and immediately when

she introduced us and we had a chance to talk over lunch for a few minutes. I knew you would be a great guest for the podcast, so I'm really happy to have you join us today.

Arthur: To start the conversation off, can you share with the audience a little bit more about yourself?

Jessica: Yeah. So, yes, I am a professor, actually an associate now recently tenured at Montclair State. And so I have been here at Montclair State for about seven years now. So I'll tell you a little bit about my background before I got here.

I grew up in Ohio in the Cleveland area. I went to undergraduate at a small school called the College of Worcester, and I studied sociology and education. And so that was actually a really good background for where I ended up going to those two fields of study coming together.

And then I started working while I was still in undergrad. I had a friend recruit me to come and work at a summer camp in Connecticut that was run through the arc. And so it was a summer camp for adults with intellectual and developmental disabilities.

So I was sort of thrust into the world of disability at that point and got really interested in it. And so that's sort of where my focus of my career stayed ever since then. I was 20 when I first started that work and then I got my teaching degree, actually did my student teaching in New Zealand. And then I started working more actually in adult services for people with disabilities. So I worked in a group home, I worked as a job coach. I did various things like that. And then I decided it was time to go back to grad school.

Jessica: And so, I was sort of interested in the combination of sociology, education and disability at that point. And so I sort of stumbled onto the field of disability studies by kind of doing some research on those kind of three fields together.

And it looked really interesting to me, and it was a critical approach to understanding the kind of history and phenomenon of how disabilities are understood in our society. And so I found quickly that one of the best programs was at Syracuse.

Jessica: So my master's degree was in cultural foundations of education and disability studies at Syracuse, and I loved it. One of the things that I did right away that has also really informed my work up until today is that I started working with the self advocates that worked in collaboration with the university, and there was a center there called the Center for Human Policy that actually was like back in the day. It was a center that was instrumental in shutting down institutions for people with more significant disabilities. I learned so much from the people who were advocating for their own rights, right away as I was studying disability studies and at that point, I just couldn't imagine leaving or stopping learning because there was so many great faculty at Syracuse and I got to explore so many things. So I decided to stay for my doctorate.

But because I had a background in education, I decided to pursue my doctorate in special education. But it still had the strong critical disability studies perspective that sort of how Syracuse does everything related to disability and special ed.

So it was a great education there. I continued to work with self-advocacy groups and all of that all the way through my doctoral studies. And I pivoted to my research being interested in actually failing schools and standards based reform and high stakes testing movement and how those impacted in more impoverished areas, the inclusion and exclusion of kids with disabilities and more significant disabilities, kids who are multiple marginalized. And so that's been a strong area of interest. But alongside topics of curriculum and access to learning in school and society for kids with more significant disabilities.

Jessica: So that's kind of maintained throughout. So. Before I came to Montclair State, I worked for three years as a professor at Lehman College, which is part of CUNY in the Bronx, and then found this job, which had a lot of other people doing similar disability studies oriented work to me within teacher education.

And so this has been a really great fit and a great place for me to be for a while. So that's a little bit about my background.

Arthur: That's great. I always like to ask a question like that to people to see where they began, where the interest started in the disability studies, and quite a few times I found that people started in summer camps, volunteering at summer camps and when they were young adults in college and things like that. So it's really, really cool to have people answer that question.

I always like to find out a little bit more about how you became interested in a topic like disability studies, topics related to inclusion.

Arthur: So one of the many things that you have done there at Montclair and throughout your career is that you co-founded the Increasing Access to College project there at Montclair State University. Can you share with our listeners what that project is about and information about it?

Jessica: Yeah, absolutely. I would love to. And so this has been a project that I have done with my colleague, Dr. Sue Baglier, and so actually the way it started and I think it was like I was starting my first year at Montclair, Sue was kind of beginning the very, very early work. So she was actually approached by a local day habilitation center to have some of our teacher students collaborate with the folks that went there that were young adults, and they actually wanted her to send our students over there.

And she went to visit and realized that, from an inclusive perspective. And these are for students who are learning to be high school and secondary teachers that it wasn't as inclusive as the goals that we have for our students to learn from. So instead, she actually invited the folks to come to campus and collaborate on campus with her, with her class. And so it sort of just started off as a class project and then I became involved.

And actually one of the things I didn't mention that I also did while I was at Syracuse is Syracuse has a really, really strong program. It's now called Inclusive University, but they've had a few different kind of sub programs under that.

And so when I was actually a teaching assistant for Doug Beclin, I got my first teaching assistant job was to actually support the peer relationships for a teacher education course at Syracuse with the students with intellectual disabilities who are on campus.

Jessica: So I got involved and informed about that kind of work in my doctoral studies. So Sue asked me to work with her to sort of expand the work at Montclair State. And so one of the first partners we have, we actually were in collaboration with Bloomfield High School and there was a state grant to improve transition services.

Jessica: This was like six years ago or so. So we worked with Bloomfield to apply for this grant. We did not get the grant. However, we decided to basically do most of the work that was in the grant proposal anyway without any money.

And so about six years ago we informally kind of started working with our teacher Ed students and a group of students from Bloomfield High School who are transition age. So, they're 18 to 21 year olds and the district provided support by bringing up teaching assistants or para-professionals.

And they provided the busing. And we had our teacher ed students. Finding, you know, developing relationships with them and finding learning and social and recreational opportunities on campus kind of through the back door. So over time, we realized that trying to do everything through the back door was not the most effective route.

And it really didn't provide, you know, quote unquote, ‘full inclusion’ for our students. They didn't have IDs. They weren't able to get into the systems. You know, some of them start informally getting professors to agree that they could audit or sit in the courses.

So over time, we've established a lot of structures and policies and practices at the university. So now when our students come, we now partner with a very new, very early partnership with Clifton. We actually just have one student from Clifton.

We've been partnering with Montclair Public Schools now for a couple of years, and we've had our longest and most robust partnership is still a student Bloomfield. We have anywhere usually from like 6 to 10 students from Bloomfield come up every day.

And so now the students, every student audits one or two courses every semester. They and then everything is peer supported. So we work with our Center for Community Engagement on campus. And so we get student volunteers who are Bonner leaders through that.

Jessica: We sometimes collaborate with service learning students from other courses in other disciplines, and then our teacher ed students often will do volunteer work because they like it and they want to or because it's part of a course.

And so now our students they audit courses, they get support, they go to a class with a peer with the same peer, they go to the gym or go to events. They do any kind of recreational stuff other undergraduates would do, and they get some support for their homework and their schoolwork.

So now it's a pretty robust, inclusive experience after a lot of years of development. And then the other thing we're really very excited about that it seems ready to announce is that we have created a certificate program and we've got a generous donation from the Lacy family, which is a local Montclair family.

And the Lacy’s, Wendy owns and runs Cornerstone Montclair, an inclusive store or just general store. And so we are planning at this point to be launching a certificate program next fall, hopefully. So that is moving forward and that we have developed a full curriculum.

It's a two year program at this point where students would come and they would take about nine credits per semester for two years. It has an internship component. And so, we're excited that we are going to be able to announce and launch that for starting next fall.

So we'll be able to have an incoming class of students that are either are or are not associated with it. With the high school transition program, it could also be a post-high school student who isn't able to access higher ed through a traditional route, and they would be able to come to campus through the certificate program, get peer support and take courses either for audit or for credit, depending on their their interests and choices.

Jessica: So it's a little bit of a long history about where we have come in, and where we are now.

Arthur: And it shows, I think, the dedication and determination that you all had to see it through because it was long, like you said, but it's paying off right now and to have Wendy, she was a guest on the podcast last season and she's great.

It's really great to see everything come together and start you know, you start seeing results from the hard work that everybody has put in for this project to work, and, congratulations to everybody. That's really, really exciting.

Jessica: It's been a long, a long process and it's taken a lot of advocacy, and on a lot of people's part. But we're excited because we have a new president and a new provost.

And, their mission is really supporting community partnerships and community engaged work and our students learning in connection with community members. So, you know, we're excited that they have committed to continuing this work because you never know what's going to happen when you have a change in leadership. So we feel pretty optimistic at this point.

Arthur: It's great work that you all are doing there at Montclair. You know, in addition to what you're doing, are there any other college programs in the state of New Jersey that you're aware of that are working toward increasing the inclusivity and diversity of students with disabilities in their higher education settings on their campuses?

Jessica: Absolutely. So there are. I actually just looked it up today to see how many exactly there were in New Jersey. So if anybody's interested in knowing more, there's a national coordinating center.

There are about 260 ish programs in the U.S. and then there has been federal grant support for inclusive postsecondary education programs over the last almost 20 years. Now, the grant is called TIPSID, if you go to thinkcollege.net or to the think college website, you'll find a lot of information about these

programs. So they also have a map for each state. So in New Jersey, there's ten other programs listed, the ones that are most well known. And so the College of New Jersey, it's called Career and Community Studies. That program has been around for, I think, at least 20 years or so.

So they were kind of one of the early programs. They run a residential program. So that's a good opportunity. The other one that we've collaborated with quite a bit is at Turning Point, which is at Bergen Community College.

They have kind of vocational specific programs that lead to specific certificates in different vocational interests. So that's another really interesting program. Georgian Court has a newer program. I think it's small so far, but it's a residential program.

A couple of colleges use a national nonprofit that moves into campus is called College Steps. So Kean and County College of Morris have programs. So, you know, it's sort of interesting because we've also in our building of the IAC at Montclair State, we've done a lot of research both on our own programs.

We've published a couple of articles we've been interested in actually looking at, and this aligns to both Sue and I are disability studies scholars. So we're really interested in allowing the voice of people with disabilities to help inform our decision making.

So we've, done some research participant observation, qualitative oriented type research and listened a lot to the students who have come here. And so, what we've learned from them really is that belonging and peer relationships has been so central to the program and so has the the real thinking through what inclusion means as an evolving concept. As we have folks on a college campus that historically, academia is, thought of as sort of a more elite, right? You need an elite way of understanding knowledge to participate. And so we really we think that this kind of work pushes the boundaries of that way of thinking about academia.

So I say that to say, I think if you look at the national landscape of these programs, they really vary in how they approach ideas of inclusion and inclusivity. So some are frankly, they they bring people to campuses that they're not fully integrated or integrated at all into the college learning that's going on on campuses where others are really fully integrated.

Jessica: I think a lot of the work in New Jersey and we actually there's a New Jersey higher ed coalition that we participate in, too, that we work together to kind of share best practices.

So I think it's nice that a lot of the work in New Jersey has really pushed this idea of inclusive opportunity. So there's a lot of great and varie options and opportunities for folks to look at across the state.

Arthur: Yeah, that's really great and thanks for mentioning that website. That's a great resource for sure to find all the information in one spot. That's always a helpful, helpful thing. And to hear that there are so many colleges in New Jersey that are offering these types of programs and to to help those with disabilities, and I love what you said about listening to those who have participated in your you know, in your program there at Montclair. Like, I think listening to the disabled voices is very important.

Arthur: So I know you mentioned that you are currently working with certain school districts there and in your area for this IAC. So is it limited to those schools? Do you all have space for more schools to join or can you tell us where that is possibly heading in that direction?

Jessica: So, we're we're excited that we we believe that under our new administration, the the agreement that we have seems stable.

But because that was also under question whether the partnership with school districts would be able to continue in the same way as we launched the certificate program. And at this point, I'm not sure that we have unlimited capacity because honestly, Sue and I are running the program, and this is essentially volunteer work for us because we have full time jobs in teaching and research and running other programs and such.

But, we're always open to conversations and sharing what we do with other districts. I think the more clear opportunity for other districts to actually get involved is maybe not through what we call the fellowship partner that we're in partnership with that we're doing with districts right now. But if districts are interested in the certificate program, we are absolutely going to be launching in the fall. We're going to be looking for our first class of students to come join.

Jessica: We are intending to hire a director this academic year. And so if folks who work in school districts are interested in supporting their students to join the certificate program, that would absolutely be something that we would be willing to talk with folks about.

That's an exciting opportunity for those that want to apply.

Arthur: It's a very exciting opportunity. It's just great. I love hearing these types of conversations and seeing where things have come so far from when I was in college 20 years ago, which is hard for me to believe. To hear that, you know, the conversations are still being had and change is actually being made to assist those. And what you said earlier about the misconception that you have to have, college is something elite and the elite level of thinking and things like that.

And just to change that change that conversation and to make people realize that, college is accessible and inclusive for all students. Making those changes and having these conversations of getting the word out about these programs that exist in the state of New Jersey and around the country is so very important.

Jessica: And I think that, the assumptions so many people have about youth, young adults with intellectual disability labels are that their capacity or even interest in learning advanced concepts or, developing their skills and talents in the subject areas like philosophy or like sociology or, even like the arts or education, right? These fields there's so often assumptions that like, that's not for this group. And we found such the opposite. In allowing people to have the opportunity to explore these ideas. And it's also impacted, I think, our high school partners, and how they even see the literacy capabilities of the students who attend right there. They began seeing that these students actually have much more capabilities and interest. Yes. So we believe, especially as a public institution, that access to higher ed should be available for those who desire it.

Some people may need support. We really think about Instead of gaining skills towards independence, we look at how interdependent relationships with their peers, with everybody around them, allows people to do things and explore opportunities that are naturally available on college campuses that those people just didn't think was appropriate for that group of people.

Arthur: So leading into our next question. You have been at this work for many years now and, it can sometimes be a struggle and things come up that you didn't expect.

So can you share with us some of the challenges that arise when getting students with intellectual disabilities fully included into college? And can you also share with us some ways in which those challenges can be overcome?

Jessica: Yeah. Sure.

So some of the barriers that, you know, I think we've noticed and this is not unique to my state, but it's also, you know, pretty well documented in the broader literature base, I think is that assumptions. I mean, I've talked a lot about assumptions already.

Right. But, ableism is is alive and well in our society. And so I think, these reliance's on low expectations or sometimes it's the idea of like even exceptional protectionism is sort of a necessary response.

So we've definitely seen in some of our interactions with the university level. I don't know how to exactly say it, but bureaucracies that there’s sometimes worry that this group of people isn't or shouldn't be exposed to these particular kinds of ideas or even from some of the family or community partners.

There's worries that like adult content that's naturally available on a college campus is not going to be appropriate for a particular group of students. And I think that goes back to assumptions that we need to protect young adults because they have intellectual disabilities, and that a step further back even goes to the idea that this group of people has like a more childlike experience of understanding the world, or can't be exposed to things like sexuality discussions, which are common on college campuses. So those kinds of, and just like the nature of bureaucracy, right, that it's inflexible.

Jessica: And so to ask for them to become more flexible is sometimes a challenge. But it's also been a beautiful surprise, on the other hand, that when we actually work together and have conversations with different offices across campus, when we've worked with different faculty, we found incredible openness and willingness and kind of on the more individual level for

people to just kind of figure it out. There may not be, there's never a perfect formula, you know, and a lot of the faculty have said, Oh, wow, like, it's really stretched my thinking about my teaching practices and has actually made me a better teacher for all my students.

So those kinds of things have been just really beautiful surprises as well. Does that answer your question?

Arthur: Yeah. Yes, absolutely. Yeah, As you said, from the challenges we can find the beauty and the surprises that come out and realize how to start making change and making people change their way of thinking and the assumptions that they make, so that's how we do it. And it's really,great that it's all happening there. And this last part last question that I have, it touches on ableism, which you just brought up, which is that I found that, personally, I've found that it

has been a topic of conversation throughout the social media world, especially the last two years or so, that a lot of people have been home and realizing how things are not accessible to people with disabilities. And it's been a really big topic.

So I wanted to bring up this last question, which is that you have collaborated with one of our previous guests on the podcast who introduced us, Dr. Priya Lalvani, and on some research. So can you share with us some of the information about the research she did with Dr.Lalvani on the article entitled: “Rethinking We are All Special: Anti-Ableism Curricula in Early Childhood Classrooms”

Jessica: For sure. Yes. So one of the things that I think is pretty prevalent in our K-12 and now I'm kind of moving more from higher ed into K-12 systems, is that disability is a dirty word that shouldn't be talked about?

I think kids from early ages learn this idea that by just the fact that it's often silenced when a kid has a really natural question about human diversity, which is in our society, we often define as disability.

We tell the kid to be quiet or not to ask, or that it's rude to ask, or that it’s rude to stare. just their natural interest and curiosity is just something that shouldn't be pursued.

And so we feel pretty strongly and this is what this article is about. We also have another article that has a similar kind of outcome and a topic that's more practitioner oriented for early childhood classrooms. So in both of those articles, we kind of tackle the idea that schools tend to reinforce silence by not addressing disability openly in our K-12 classrooms, and kids learn a really strong message about disability when it's silence that it is something terrible and something that shouldn't be discussed ever. And so that reinforces negative stereotypes.

Jessica: And so and at the same time, we have our highly segregated system that also reinforces that this group of people is often not there. They're not learning together or if they are in the school. Right. We're seeing them in separate rooms, in separate spaces. And so that's another way that negative understandings of disability are being reinforced in young children.

And so our kind of proposal and these articles are that we should be directly integrating conversations about disability into our curriculum. There are a lot of ways to do this effectively at all levels of ages.

Jessica: And so and then, kind of going back to a point we were discussing earlier, And I think similar to the work that you also do outside of this podcast is that we should be learning these insights from people who live with disabilities.

It shouldn't be outsiders necessarily explaining what it means to live with a disability. Kids are going to have better role models and more nuanced understandings of disability, if they learn from the perspectives of people with disabilities. And there are a lot of ways to do that, at all

different ages. There are great children's books from first person perspectives. There's a lot of writing for older kids. You know, there's a lot of films that we've had a lot more, I think great films come out around the disability rights and civil rights movements that are appropriate, especially at the higher grade levels for kids to watch and interrogate. So, there is then there's also. Other themes around difference in diversity. So we talk about intersectional differences too, right? So what does it mean to have the experience of an LGBTQ person who has a disability at once, and how do we understand that?

Jessica: I think our schools have done a lot of work over the last. And, of course, there's like backlash to this right now. But, there's a lot of curricular work that's been done around anti-racism, for instance, and approaches and tools and techniques for teaching that to all levels.

And that would be a whole other conversation to talk about that, the national discourse on that right now. But there hasn't been a lot of work or prominence in talking about anti-ableism with kids in schools in the same way that other minority groups have gotten, you know.

You know, it's been really, really worked on to integrate these conversations into the curriculum and discussions. So that's a lot of what that work is about and also helping kids learn to be change agents at all levels.

So we talk a little bit about pedagogical techniques that there's a type of critical pedagogy is a framework kind of out of the work of Paula Ferrari that helps kids really learn about marginalization and discrimination and then also learn about how to do something about it, even at small levels within their own school.

So some of the stuff is how to integrate those kind of pedagogical techniques to learning about disability, disability history, and then maybe applying it for kids to take action and make changes within their own schools and communities.

So a little bit about that.

Arthur: Yeah, I of course, as I shared with you before we started recording how I am passionate about that type of work and educating the K through 12 grade levels about disabilities and as you said, learning from someone who has a disability, who lives that experience is very important because it it starts conversations at home. For the high school students who are planning to go to college, to major in certain areas, that will give them an insight to, okay, if I'm going to go into architecture or, you know, hotel management or whatever insert their career goals, then they can go with that in mind

to say how it is, how can I make an impact for my customers who might come in with disabilities and, you know, so it's very, very important to do that and to have these conversations.

And even at the I guess, in the corporate world, the diversity, equity and inclusion conversations that are being had, as you mentioned, a lot of times they are structured around the LGBTQ community and race, but disability is often forgotten about in these conversations.

So, you know, it's very, very important that, you know, this type of research is being done to show the importance of speaking and learning and educating others about disability. So thank you for all of the work that you're doing.

Arthur: People like us and so many others who are doing this work, we really are making a change. And that is I think that is the important thing to keep in mind. And when things get hard and the challenges that we discussed earlier and when all of those things come up, just remember that to stay focused on the change that we know that we are making through educating about inclusivity and inclusive education and just making things better for those who live with disabilities.

Jessica: And remembering that it can be a prideful identity category, too. It's not just I mean, I think that's that's where schools often get it so wrong.

Right. We're so embedded in the medical model in our schools and it's always viewed as such a deficit, and we try at least in our teacher program. And I think a lot of other teachers at programs are doing this work to to train future teachers to really be critical of the deficit medical model and look at disability and really different ways. But I think starting by talking. About disability as something that can be a prideful identity category beyond just what is wrong with you? And what can our schools do to fix you, is really important.

And it's an important piece of, you know, I know NJCIE does inclusive reform work, right? That is an important piece, in my opinion, of transforming schools. It's not just the structures of schools, but it's I think that before we can even tackle the structures, we have to talk about the ways people think about disability, the ways people, the beliefs people have about disability, and starting by shifting those beliefs towards presuming competence and understanding the limits of the categories and understanding big issues of how minority groups get overrepresented into specific categories and why these categories aren't perfect and why segregation is harmful for for kids and all of these things.

Jessica: I think those ideologies are the starting point for transforming the systems.

Arthur: So, yes. So on that note, Dr. Jessica Bacon, thank you so much for joining me for this episode, for this conversation. I truly enjoyed it and have learned so much and have been inspired to keep going with the work that I'm doing through this podcast and just getting the word out. Getting the word out I think is so important, too, because these programs like the one you have there at Montclair and the other colleges you mentioned, they exist and not everybody knows about them.

So I think, for me personally, too, I can remember growing up and not knowing certain things and how difficult it was to find information about, something like learning how to drive. I can't use my legs, but I never knew, it took me a long time to find out that hand controls exist and where I could go to get them and take driving lessons. So I think having these types of conversations and putting them out to the world at large to make people aware that programs exist and we are making changes for those who have disabilities

Arthur: I think it is so important. So thank you again for joining me for this conversation. I appreciate it.

Jessica: It was great. Thanks so much.

Arthur: Yes, thanks. And you have a great day. We thank you for listening to this episode of the Inclusion Think Tank Podcast.

This podcast is brought to you by New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education NJCIE. Be sure to subscribe on YouTube, Spotify or Apple Podcasts, and don't forget to follow us on social media @NJCIE. Until next time.

On this episode of The Inclusion Think Tank Podcast, I welcome my guest Michele Gardner. We discuss the importance of having a strategic plan and collaboration when creating an inclusive school environment.

On this episode of the Inclusion Think Tank Podcast, I welcome my guest Winifred Winston. We discuss the intersectionality of being black and dyslexic.

Arthur: This is The Inclusion Think Tank Podcast brought to you by the New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education—NJCIE, where we talk about inclusive education, why it works, and how to make it happen.

On today’s episode we welcome our guest Winifred Winston. Winifred is a parent, founder of Dyslexia Advocation, and the co-host of the Black and Dyslexic Podcast. During our conversation today, we will discuss her story of how she became an advocate for her daughter who is diagnosed with Dyslexia and ADHD, as it relates to inclusive education, and how it led her to create Dyslexia Advocation a non-profit whose mission is to “equip parents of children with dyslexia and other language-based learning disabilities with the necessary tools to help their child(ren) become successful readers.”

Arthur: I would like to welcome everyone back to another episode of the Inclusion Think Tank Podcast. I'm your host, Arthur Aston, and I am joined today by my guest Winifred Winston. And I am happy and grateful to have you on the podcast today, so thank you for joining me.

Winifred: Oh, thank you so much for having me Arthur, this is great, I’m excited.

Arthur: Yeah, I'm really excited, too. So of course, I read up about you and preparing for this, and I saw on one of your social media sites you gave a description of yourself that says you educate, empower and equip parents of children with learning differences like dyslexia, and you are also the host of the Black and Dyslexic podcast.

Winifred: Yes.

Arthur: Yes. So I would love for you to share anything else about yourself that you would like for us to know.

Winifred: Well, you know, the first thing is, yes, I'm a mom and I'm a mom of a child who struggled to learn how to read. Having also worked in education, I thought I would know how to help her. I have friends that were educators. I was able to call folks to say, hey, can you look over this IEP for me? I thought like, okay, we'll be fine. I’ll figure this out, but that wasn't the case, and so I found myself feeling helpless, feeling like oh, my gosh, I can't help my daughter.

Like, I'm not doing something right. So first, being a parent advocate and really immersing myself in this space, because what I learned is that, we were so far from getting her the right help and being in the space of special education and literacy and dyslexia, it was a very white space. I found myself helping other parents and also navigating and getting help for my daughter.

But, there wasn't a space for black and brown people to feel comfortable, and folks would hit me up. I call it on the back end, right? They would come to meetings, but then they would reach out to me separately.

And so I kept feeling like I need to do more because now I'm in this space, I'm immersed in this space, and then that just led to me, starting the nonprofit Dyslexia Advocation, where we do want to educate, empower and equip parents, and we focus on trying to reach more Black and Brown parents because of the education.

You've got to educate yourself on the special education system, your child, and then dyslexia and what that means. And also reading and literacy. There's a lot of education that's involved. And once we're educated, we can feel empowered, empowered to advocate for our child, empowered to ask for what we need, and feel okay in doing that. A lot of times black parents get pegged as the angry black parent and then equipping them with the tools.

Winifred: Because there's so much out there and there are so many people who will try and take advantage of you because you don't know what you don't know. So now you're equipped with all of this information and you can successfully advocate for your child who is struggling to read.

So I was just so passionate and trying to find my lane, and trying to find and really, after the George Floyd incident, trying to really carve out a lane that I knew I needed to be in, but being okay, being in that lane, and not feeling like I'm doing too much and being too extra when I tell you I want to reach more black and brown families because we know that black and brown children are under-diagnosed, correctly, and over-diagnosed incorrectly. So I really wanted to tackle that and just be courageous in my efforts and not be apologetic about it.

So I also, like you said me and LeDerick, we host the Black and Dyslexic podcast and that was an effort to our dyslexia awareness campaign. That was an effort to remove the stigma about learning disabilities in the black and brown community. Have guests on who can share their lived experiences. I'm so proud of our Bad-Ass Parent segment. I had to sell a lot of people on that.

I'm like, No, it's the Bad-Ass Parent segment. I feel it in my spirit. Parents want to share their stories and so much so that a lot of folks reach out and tell me, I just listen to the Bad-Ass Parent segment because it's the parent's journey that resonates with me that made me feel okay, to make me feel like I'm not alone in this. You know what I mean? And then to have professionals in this space, a lot of folks, a lot of black folks didn't know, speech-language pathologists, what they actually do.

Winifred: Dyslexia is a language-based learning disability. A lot of parents didn't know the difference between what I call a home tutor and then a specialized tutor, right, and not even understanding that, yes, you can get an advocate to help you through the process of the IEP.

Right, and you can have someone at the IEP meeting with you. And so there were all these different things that I didn't know myself. Having been an educator, having had friends in education, I didn't know. So I wanted to bring that to the masses, and so that was our passion project, the Black and Dyslexic podcast.

Arthur: Yeah. That is like I said, I've listened to a bunch of episodes of it and it's great. I love the conversation of it all. It's just a laid-back conversation, and just the two of you and your guests are just really being real and reaching some serious topics and important topics and getting to help people find the right avenues and the right way to, better help themselves and their and their children.

One thing that you just said that I would like to talk a little bit more about is being under an over-diagnosed part in Black and Brown communities. Can you just share a little bit more about that?

Winifred: Sure. So in doing this work. We see that more dyslexia is thought of as a white wealthy learning disability, right. A lot of when we look at the data, this is data that shows that one in five folks have dyslexia.

And about 34, I think it's only 34-35% of children are actually proficient in reading on their grade level in the whole country, and when we look at special education and we delve into learning disabilities, we find that a lot of black and brown children, the system focuses on behavior and not academics.

So a kid who might be diagnosed with ADHD or emotionally disturbed, but there's a learning disability. There's an underlying learning disability there, and so much so that in order to navigate this space, I became the director of admissions of a special education school,

and so in that role, I'm reviewing reports from parents all across the state of Maryland who want to get into our school. And I'm able to see in these reports how a little black boy's behavior is described.

Certain words are used: aggressive, we had to redirect, and then I look at a report from a white student saying behavior but different words to describe that behavior and that really was like, am I reading this right?

Winifred: Like, wait a minute. I'm seeing it from every angle. You know, and so a lot of parents in the black and brown community don't want another label on their child. They don't want another label because there are all these labels, but not really understanding that, hey, we've got to get the right label because, they’re going to label your child regardless. They're going to label them defiant. They're going to have them labeled uncooperative. They're going to place some label, but it won't be the correct label.

To a parent who doesn't know anything about this, like, oh, my child is struggling, and then the school will say, oh, okay, well, they're not paying attention.

They're not focused, and it’s ADHD. Even for my daughter, she's dyslexic and ADHD in my ignorance, when they said ADHD, I thought, Oh, no, she's black, and that's a medical code and they just want insurance to pay.

Because, in my ignorance, I didn't know what ADHD looked like. I didn't know how it showed up. Now, here's the kicker. I had someone that I trusted read over my daughter's report and I said, look at the disparity in my answers and how the teacher answers some of these questions.

And she said to me, she said, well, you know, sometimes when the parent exhibits the same behavior, they don't recognize it as an issue. Basically, that's what she was saying. Right. And I thought to myself, when the parent, afterward and I said and when the parent has the same…

Oh. She is trying to say I'm ADHD. Sure enough, classic ADHD. Never knew it. Never identified. So you think about parents who may exhibit the same behaviors but have never been identified, never diagnosed and say, oh, well, that's just my child.

Because I would tell you, oh, that's just my daughter. Her birthday’s five days after mine. She has the same energy as me now. You know, I'm ADHD, but did not know. Right. So you have so many black and brown families who just are not aware, then we don't want another label.

And then they're incorrectly labeling our children because so many, like if my daughter, I'm afraid that if she was identified with the ADHD first, we probably would have never gotten a diagnosis of dyslexia or the interventions is because they focused on, oh, she's not paying attention, oh give her medicine so she'll pay attention.

And it wouldn't have mattered if she's dyslexic and not getting the type of interventions that she needed. So we see that there's a huge disparity in the correct identification and then there's the over-identification of the wrong things. So we see that a lot.

Arthur: I definitely identify with when you say like, Oh, that's just my child, that's just how they are, and, they're fine. And so, it is important to get the proper diagnosis.

Winifred: Because a lot of them are hereditary. We also found out that my daughter’s father is dyslexic, and I knew as soon as she was identified that, I was like, he's definitely dyslexic and never identified, never got any help. And so, he just thought he wasn't that smart and struggled in college.

And a lot of parents that I speak to that come back to me later, you know, it may be one parent who's on board with, okay, my child has this identification, this learning disability and this is how we’re going to get through it.

And then another parent would be like, well, no, don't label my child. And that parent, you know, will confide in me like he's just like him, like he's just like her. And I'm like, yes, it's hereditary.

And it does run in families. And so, it's hard for some adults to look back and say, wait a minute, that's me. Here I am, 40 plus, 35 plus. And that explains why X, Y and Z?

And I've developed all these coping strategies. Some of them I thought were positive, but really they're not, and so sometimes it's a lot for a parent to take in all while they're still trying to advocate for their child.

Because now the onus is like with that and what do I need to do? What can I do differently? so it's a lot to take on. But as parents, we're going to do whatever is necessary to help our children.

Arthur: That is absolutely right. Yes, as parents, they definitely do whatever is necessary to make sure that their child gets, you know, what's needed and what is going to be most beneficial and helpful to them for sure.

Arthur: So that's actually a perfect segue into what I wanted to ask. Can you share your story about how you started to become an advocate for your daughter and what that process was like, and all the steps that it took?

Winifred: Oh, gosh, absolutely. So my daughter, because I worked in the public school system here in Baltimore City, I'm like, okay, I'm keeping an eye on our neighborhood school, and I'm like, I don't know if public school is going to be the route for us.

So she was at a small private Christian school. I just noticed she wasn't reading. She had no interest in it. But at three, her vocabulary was vast, using words like, Oh, I have to defecate. And she's very inquisitive, asking all these questions.

So in Pre-K, we had to pull her from the reading group. You know, she's catching on. She's remembering all these things. But she wasn't retaining. We were going over sight words, but she wasn't retaining sight words and we were going over scripture, bible, scripture and she would remember it. She would take the quiz and she would sit in the next week. It was like we never went over it.

And I just noticed she wasn't retaining and she didn't have any. The huge thing is she didn't have any interest. I have a nephew who's the same age as her, and he wrote her a letter. I’ll never forget it. He had wrote her a letter and mailed it and I'm now like, how cool is that? Not email, but you're getting mail.

And she just looked at it and was like, Oh, mommy, you read it. Like she had no interest. And that just really struck me as odd. And everyone is telling me, Oh, she'll catch on. You know, she's my only child.

First-time mom. “Oh, you're being over the top. What are you worried about? She's so smart. Oh, I talk to her all the time.” That's what everyone kept telling me. She's so smart. I talk to all the time, and I kept thinking, well, yeah, she's so smart. That's why I'm concerned. She's so smart, but she's not reading.

Winifred: And so, we ended up leaving the private school and we went to a public charter school and it was arts integration and project-based learning. So the kiddos learned by doing hands-on projects.

And I knew my daughter. That rigid environment that she was in, in private school really wasn't for her. And when I went to visit the school, the kids were on beanbags. They were just free to roam about and move.

Winifred: And it was very engaging, not knowing she's dyslexic. And so I kept telling them I'm really concerned about her, her reading. And we were in a very small class. And these public schools are like, you know, large class size is larger. Just concerned. I'm concerned.

So to end of first grade. In the first grade, they said, “Okay, well, we what do you how do you think her progress? What do you think about the progress she's made?” And I said, okay, you know, she's made a little progress, but I'm still concerned because, letting her know that you're going to call on her and all those things really aren't teaching her how to read. And so they said, “Well, we want to evaluate. What do you think about an evaluation?” And they were really tiptoeing about around asking that.

And I was like, No, yes, I want to do it. I want to do it! Like because I rather find out what's going on, if something is going on. I was very open to the evaluation and I could tell just how they were tiptoeing around it.

Like, we don't know if we want to say that. How is she going to respond? You know, and having worked in the district, in the position I worked in, I was very good at reading body language because I had been in a role where I had to have hard conversations to support principals.

So I was always assessing because now I'm like, okay, this is my child. Let me put in all the skills that I have. And so we had her evaluated the end of first grade, and they came back and said she had a specific learning disability, SLD.

They also wanted to do occupational therapy, OT assessment, and I didn't understand any of it. It was like mumbo jumbo to me. It was like peanut club, womp, womp, womp, womp, womp. I was like, what?

But how are we going to teach her how to read? I noticed, like the more I kept saying, how are we going to teach her how to read? Oh, we're going to give her more time.

And she'll be able to get more time and all these accommodations, and even then, I didn't really clearly understand the difference between accommodation and remediation or intervention. I didn't really get all of that.

But I kept asking how she I learn how to read. And so at the end of the at the end of that meeting, one of the psychologists slipped up and said, ‘well, you know, when children have dyslexia, we normally do…’

Winifred: And I said, oh, she has dyslexia? Because, now I felt like that was something I understood and something I could research. And she said, Oh, no, no, no, no, no. I didn't say that. I said, Well, how do I get her evaluated?

What do I do? And I was like, What? Thinking to myself, What's going on here? Why are they stumbling over words? Like what? So I left that meeting feeling like, Oh, they're hiding something. They didn't tell me something.

And I went to my car like so many parents do, and I cried. Because, I was like, Oh my gosh, she has dyslexia. They say she might have dyslexia, but they're not telling me something. And I called my cousin crying and she's like, get it together.

Because she's an attorney, she deals in special education law in college. And she mentioned some resources. So as I started researching within a matter of three days, I was told I needed $22,000. That included an expensive summer tutoring program and then an independent educational evaluation where I could go and get someone specialized to do a full comprehensive evaluation.

I thought, oh, my gosh, I don't have $22,000 in three days. And I called her pediatrician, crying, a lot of crying, and her pediatrician connected me with a psychologist who walked me through some steps.

She said “I need you to do this. Go to this website. You don't want to over-assess her. And if she has dyslexia, this is what you need to do.” And she didn't speak to me as if she was afraid of the word dyslexia.

She was just like, okay, this is what we're going to do. And I followed everything this woman said.

And so I followed the steps that she told me. And that led me to a grassroots organization called Decoding Dyslexia. Decoding Dyslexia Maryland, and I connected with parents of children with dyslexia and other language-based learning disabilities. I became a state leader.

Winifred: I was going to Annapolis to fight for legislation. I just immersed myself. And the thing is, is that I wasn't afraid to say I didn't know. I wasn't afraid to show up at a meeting, and there's nothing but white women and here’s me and they're talking about legislation and policy.

And I don't understand a thing. I'm sitting there like, okay, I'm taking notes. Okay. Okay. After this meeting, I'm going to go to the corner, and ask this woman, what does that mean? Right. And I wasn't afraid and I didn't feel a certain way when folks offered me help. Well Winifred, I could meet with you to go over the IEP, I'm like, “Oh, you can meet with me one on one? Yeah, let's do that.”

Winifred: And so I just immersed myself in that space. And then one thing led to another thing, to another thing. And so I started a chapter here in Baltimore City, and I did some training so that I could better understand the process, so I could navigate and help parents find the right solution. Because there's now I'm finding there's a lot of help out here, There is a lot of noise. And if you don't know, you can be taken advantage of.

So I wanted to make sure I understood so I could weed out the bad apples if you will. I wasn't afraid. Again, I did not let fear stop me. And I would tell parents, you miss 100% of the shots you don't take.

Winifred: It’s kind of like when you buy a car and nobody has your car, right?

And then you get your car and everybody has your car. So it was like everywhere I turned, oh, I'm dyslexic. Oh, well, my child is struggling to read, and it was like a snowball effect.

Arthur: I love that analogy about nobody has your car and then you see it everywhere.

Winifred: Nobody has your car, and then you're at a light you like, wow, there's the car just like mine in front of me and in that lane to the left.

Arthur: Right. So true, Wow. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that, because I know it will be a very helpful to a lot of the listeners, people who are streaming the podcast because, I like what you said that you weren't afraid to ask questions and, you know, to say that you didn't know something and you just, you were interested in finding out solutions. And I think, as you said, that's what parents do.

Winifred: And Arthur let me just add that I say that because. It was a very white space. And this is a very sensitive topic. Your child is struggling to read and you don't know why.

And you go into a space and it's all white. I had the experience of going to school at a PWI-a predominately white institution. I was an athlete, I went to a PWI. I had professors telling me, Oh, well, you won't get any special treatment, you jocks won't get any special treatment, and look at me dead in my face. I'm not the only athlete in this class. You know, I had the experience of teammates saying, “Well, I don't know if you people like to bowl.” You know what I mean?

Like I had those experiences when I got out of college, undergrad, and two of my first jobs out of college, I was the only black person in that role. I remember Katrina happened and I just felt so heartbroken.

And I'm like, I have a two-bedroom. I could give up one of my guest bedrooms. Right. For somebody to have a place to stay. And I remember talking to some young white some white people, white colleagues, rather.

I was a little older because, I was a nontraditional student, but I looked younger. So they were probably 23, 24, and I was about 27, 28 and paid my way through college working, took me ten years to earn my undergrad.

I lost my mother during that time and they were just talking so recklessly. Oh, well, they should have had another bank, why did they have their money all at one bank? And I'm coming from North Carolina, although I'm originally from Brooklyn, New York.

I just relocated from North Carolina, where I remember there being only one bank. And because those folks knew me when my mother got sick, they were able to help me. Right? So I'm taking this personal, like, what do you mean?

And I'm looking at all these black folks dying, and I'm like, if I have an extra bedroom, I want to help. And I was very vocal and I remember we went to a meeting and they said, Oh, well, don't say anything about Katrina or poor black people because, Winifred is going to have an attitude. So they were saying that about me and I let that muffle my voice.

Winifred: When you're the only black person at a job, you can't speak for all black people, right? And I let that muffle my voice. Then I went on to the next job where I was the only black person, and my voice was muffled, and so when I got in this space, I didn't feel like I don't belong here or I can't ask questions because I've been navigating this, all through undergrad. And then when I started working and then I went to graduate school, a PWI.

So I had that advantage or that privilege if you will, of being in an all-white space and figuring out how to navigate. So I was just doing the same thing I'd always done, but now I got to navigate for my daughter, and parents would be in this space like ‘No, I feel uncomfortable”.

Because now you want me to talk about something that we don't talk about culturally. We don't talk about learning disabilities culturally. And now I'm in this space with these white women, and I don't feel like I have anything in common with what I don't even feel comfortable saying,

“I don't know what that word means.” Right. Because as black folks, when you're in these white spaces all the time, you have to be the cream of the crop. You've got to dot every I, and cross every T. And so now you're bringing this into something that's a sensitive topic and it's about somebody's child, right?

And so I really reflected on my own experience after the unrest with George Floyd and having so many folks say Black Lives Matter or not saying Black Lives Matter and I had my own experience that showed me that everybody that's in my space is not really for us.

And I had to really sit with that, and that really gave me the push to say, you know what, we are going to create the Black and Dyslexic podcast and call it that because I'm going to use the voice and the platform that I have so that I can reach more black and brown people.

And earlier, I talked about having the courage to do it, and that's what really pushed me at that time because it all started with a hashtag. I started with the hashtag on Instagram, black and dyslexic, and I was featuring celebrities and athletes.

And then I thought, well, everybody can't relate to a celebrity or athlete. And then I started doing the everyday dyslexics and so then I had another bad experience with that name. Like folks were like, why do they have to be black?

“Oh, it's people like you. You just put the black on it every you know, it affects everybody.” And one of my friends said to me, a friend and mentor, and she's like, you know what? You keep that going.

Winifred: It’s necessary. It's needed. You get funding, you make it a program. And that's how the black and dyslexic podcast came to fruition because I went out and got funding for a dyslexia awareness campaign, and, and I wrote that particularly the grant app talking about when undiagnosed learning disabilities trigger mental health issues, depression, low self-esteem. And then we know that a study out of Texas showed that 80% of inmates were illiterate and 40% were dyslexic. So we wrote that up to raise awareness in the black and brown community, and that's what really fueled that podcast and brought it to fruition.

Arthur: I love stories that start with, you know, maybe a not-so-happy thing, but it turns into something, something great and something that is so beneficial and again, sharing such necessary and important information to everybody.

So thank you for this conversation. And before I let you go, can you just share some resources with everyone; websites or books or anything you can think of that would be helpful to anyone who is listening?

Winifred: Sure. I'm going to just plug myself and my organization so you can follow us on social media, our website, Instagram, Facebook, @SoAllCanRead our website is soallcanread.org we’re on Instagram, the Black and Dyslexic podcast.

Also, Decoding Dyslexia, where we have chapters in all states and it was a great, great network of support and parents who knew how to navigate the system. We've got Decoding Dyslexia Maryland. There's Lit Moms in North Carolina.

North Carolina is very near and dear to my heart because I moved here from North Carolina. So I stay, I keep a pulse on what's going on in North Carolina. There's also a favorite website of mine is understood.org.

Understood.org. It is practical, digestible, information. And I even said to you before we started this, I don't do a lot of the big teacher talk lingo, because, I would not have understood that. I did not understand that when I started this journey and understood.org has very, very practical, digestible information.

Another great resource is Wrights Law, and like someone told me, go to the website, stay on there 5 minutes, use a timer and then get off. And while you're on, sign up for the newsletter. Let them send you the newsletter and then immerse yourself in special education law because it is overwhelming.

Okay, you got to take little tidbits of it, but definitely follow me on social media @soallcanread.org and you can reach out to me and I will respond.

Arthur: Yeah. So thank you again for taking your evening to do this.

Winifred: I appreciate you for having me. This is my pleasure.

Arthur” Yes. So you have a good night and I will be in touch soon.

Winifred: All right. Thank you, Arthur.

Arthur: You’re welcome. Bye-bye.

Arthur: We thank you for listening to this episode of the Inclusion Think Tank podcast. This podcast is brought to you by New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education, NJCIE . Be sure to subscribe on YouTube, Spotify, or Apple Podcasts, and don’t forget to follow us on social media @NJCIE. Until next time.

On this episode of the Inclusion Think Tank Podcast, I welcome my guest Steven Palivoda. We discuss the importance of self advocacy as it relates to inclusive education.

Arthur: Welcome to the Inclusion Think Tank Podcast presented by New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education, NJCIE. As the name suggests, this podcast will discuss inclusive education and most importantly, why it works.

Arthur: On this episode, I welcome my guest, Steven Palivoda. Steven is a photographer and self-advocate. He currently is employed as an administrative assistant for a nonprofit organization that works with individuals who have disabilities.  During our conversation, we share the importance of self-advocacy as it relates to inclusive education.

Arthur: Welcome back to another episode of the Inclusion Think Tank podcast brought to you by the Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education. I am your host, Arthur Aston, and I am happy to welcome my guest on today's episode. Steven Palivoda. Steven, welcome to the podcast. I'm so glad that you are joining us today. 

Steven: Thank you for having me. It’s a pleasure. 

Arthur Yeah. So you and I, we met a few months ago during the virtual Dare to Dream conference. And I was in I was kind of overseeing and facilitating your Zoom room where you hosted your conference topics.

So, and the Dare to Dream conference. I found it, It was my first time attending the conference and I found it to be very just a great experience. And you got a lot of comments and then reading all the comments when you're doing your presentation and everybody really enjoyed what your topic was.

So I'm really happy to be with you again virtually, and to have you back on the or to have you as a guest on the podcast. 

Steven: Happy to be here. Happy to be here for sure. 

Arthur: So if you could, can you share with us a little bit about yourself, who you are, and share with us what your disability is. 

Steven: Sure. So my background, I've changed jobs a lot over the years. I've been in teaching, long-term substitute, I was a paraprofessional, which, for those who don't know, is a teacher's aide, where you shadow a student and you follow them around, helping them with their assignments if need be.

I've also worked in different office settings now, and currently, I am an administrative assistant for a nonprofit organization that actually works with people who have disabilities. And it's really fascinating. So it's quite, I don't unfortunately, I don't really work with them.

I work with the managers and I work with my director and everyone else around me. So it's definitely a learning experience for sure. Every job you have has its perks, ups and downs. As for and photography really is my passion and what drives me to keep going art is where my foundation is.

So on gorgeous days like this, when it's not howling winds, I’m usually outside taking pictures if I'm not working and whatnot. So that being said, that's kind of how I use my time, like when I have downtime. 

Steven: My disability, so it's classified as just typical specific learning disability. Mine specifically was in reading comprehension, I think with other issues I can't recall, but reading comprehension was definitely my weakest one. And I remember I could literally read a chapter in a book, and then get quizzed on it, and I would fail a reading quiz because I knew I couldn't remember anything. So I had to work on different strategies on how to actually go about doing that. So that disability, I feel like now I’ve outgrown it more or less, at least in the academic side of it.

I do believe there's a social aspect to my disability that was never really talked about because, being when you're a lot more mature than most people your age, there's that separation that you have and you feel more alienated.

So there is a social aspect. I always say lately there's two aspects of disability. There's the academic side, but then you also have the social aspect to it. And a lot of people I think just kind of brush off to the side having I think that's always worth looking into.

That's a disability for me. It doesn't really, I always tell people never defines me. It's part of who I am because it never should define you. 

Arthur: That is so great. I love that you brought up your photography because I remember you mentioned that, and then you invited everybody to follow you on social media.

Steven: And I had some following. Not a lot of lot, but I’m thankful. 

Arthur: Yeah. Yeah. And I followed you during that time. Yeah. I always say, I wish that I had some kind of, artistic talent, like drawing or, having an eye for photography and things like that.

I love, like you mentioned, I love being outside as well. I was actually outside today and it was quite windy outside, but I loved being outside in nature and living in Jersey, you get to go to the beach and things like that and then look outside.

Yeah. And then there's, the nature of the forest being out in the, what, Pine Barrens and things like that. So there's a lot of things to see and photograph. So that's really cool that you do that.

And I also like that you mentioned the social part of disability. And that's really it was very important to mention that. So thanks for sharing that with everyone. 

Arthur: So as I mentioned, you and I, we did meet during the Dare to Dream conference sometime last year.

We were discussing this before we started recording and we think it was in October, but it's hard to remember what day or month it is now. So, but the Dare to Dream student leadership conferences are a conference that highlights the importance of student self-advocacy and leadership.

And as I mentioned, you hosted a presentation and one of those presentations was titled ‘Rooted in Inspiration’, where you shared things about why it's important to be inspired and what inspires you, and how that pushes you forward and led you to where you are today.

Can you give us two things or two people that inspire you and why? 

Steven: So I think this is a no-brainer. I think that photography is definitely my biggest inspiration. It's like it's my favorite. It literally gets me going every day.

The fact that I know at any point when I'm not working and I can go out and take photos when that's not when the weather is really good and comfortable, it's wonderful. Like I've been able to see so many different places, even ones that I think like in the past two years I've taken almost 22,000 pictures, which is pretty monumental. 

Most people don't even get that in a lifetime. So and I've accomplished that in about two years. Well, It’s pretty incredible when you have that kind of passion and nothing will stop you. To get an idea of how passionate I am, I once did a trip from New Hope, Pennsylvania, all the way to Hoboken in one day, and I went and stopped for lunch in between. I was pretty exhausted, but that was one of the best trips I ever did because I got probably about 300 pictures that day and I was very exhausted when I got home, but it was the best kind of exhaustion I could have asked for. It's a type you want to have. I'll put it that way because, you feel accomplished, you feel good, and you're tired from something you enjoyed doing.

You're not tired because you are stressed. If anything, it's a good kind of stress because you've been working a different part of your mind in life. That's the creative side of me. So I'm definitely photography is like my biggest thing.

Steven: I’ve been doing this really passionately since I was nine, but like professionally since I was past like maybe three years. And I have had clients for photoshoots too, you know. So it's been a lot of fun in that respect.

That's one thing I'm trying to think. The other thing that inspires me, the main thing that is people, I'd say more people in terms of my friends, they're definitely like also a huge core of who I am because really if I'm having a bad day, I know who my go-to people are. I know who I can pretty much always hang out with like every week if I want, or like if people reach out to me to want to hang out and do things and it's all about going the extra mile for people, and it's all about like everyone else reciprocating, because otherwise, friendship is like a two-way street. You can't just have one person pulling all the weight if it's only one person, we don't call that a friendship. It's just a one-way street. And it goes nowhere. It just passes right by you.

So it needs to be a nice flow. You have that fluidity going on there. So I’d say between photography and friendship, like those two go hand in hand for me. 

Steven: I will say sometimes friends don't always care for when art because I stop at every little thing and I take pictures of, so I always tell people, if I bring my camera before water, you're actually going to stop a lot along the way. So if that's not your thing, don't tag along. 

Steven: So I just I try to keep a good balance, you know, like that's where my inspiration comes from, either from the world of art.

And even though photography is my core, architecture definitely plays into that too.

Arthur:  I love everything that you said with the friends. I can definitely relate to that. I always say my friends inspire me. So I really love that.

And just that you found such passion in photography, and I definitely believe that things like that, with art and photography, writing, or singing or writing music or playing music, I think it can all be very healing and therapeutic for you.

Steven: I was just going to say therapeutic. Yeah, that's a huge part of it because you get to see so much of it. It's like you feel free, you know, it's a sense of freedom. Like you're breaking away from everything in the world and you're able to do what you like.

Arthur: So, part of your presentation during the conference, we talked about a lot of different things and people asked a lot of questions, and one of the things I wanted you to touch on during this conversation is what advice can you offer for those in high school who are preparing either to go to college or into the workforce? 

Arthur: What advice can you offer them on how they can be their own self-advocates and proactive to assure that they receive the services that they're entitled to having? 

Steven: Sure. This is a big topic for me. Being your own advocate, that is advice itself.

Really just being able to push yourself. I think I said this in the conference too, and I've said it in years past. No one can want something more than you do. You have to really want that. If you don't want it, no one's going to tell you, oh, let me help you.

If you're waiting for that silver spoon, chances are you might be probably already missed out days before. There's no sense in waiting for it. You just gotta go for it.No one's going to tell you, get on that train. You're going to have to do it, you know? 

Steven: So, and you got to utilize your resources even if you're in high school. I get it. You have your IEP team now and that's great, but you have that power to still take charge of what classes you can take. You should never let a counselor tell you, Oh well,

you haven't taken any advanced classes, so you're probably not ready for that.

Like I had that happen with a guidance counselor where of course, I respect,

who will remain nameless, but she was convinced that because all I ever had was in-class support for English, she was convinced that I could never do well in an accelerated English class, which was not true, but unfortunately my hands were tied.

I tried to fight as hard as I could, but at the most, they would let me deal with being in a regular class without any in-class support, which I thought was really unfair. So my advice is really just to try to fight for what you want.

Steven: Because, at the end of the day, you will not have a second teacher with you when you're working. Yes, you have are resources at your job, that you can always reach out to, you know, like if you're having a rough day or if you have health benefits, for instance, you can utilize therapy. Yes, it's going to cost you money, but it's going to be at a much lower rate compared to having to pay out of pocket if you weren't part of that particular workforce.

That's what I do. So because of who I work for, I have therapy at a discounted, at much higher discounted rate. You know, you're talking like paying 40 bucks as an example every time versus 120.

Huge difference, right? So you want to be able to like find ways to utilize those resources, know where you need to go for help even in high school. Utilize your teachers all the time. That's what I did. If anything I stayed school when I got stuck and couldn't figure out a thing, I didn't have much of a social life in high school. That's just where how I chose to be. I didn't feel like I ever really fit in. So for me, utilizing my teachers was really my only outlet. So for me, that was the biggest help I could have asked for.

Steven: If college is your thing. Here's this advice. When it comes to college, you want to find out if your college or university has a specific program for people with disabilities. Right. Some universities will have it where it's much more generic and they just have disability services.

Middlesex County College, unfortunately, it's no longer. But the college used to have a program called Project Connections, which was a fantastic program. It was known nationally at one point for being one of the better programs in the country.

And it was very selective, only about maybe like 100, 120 students got in every year, but it was a very focused program where you could actually go through these different classes and they would basically give you like that helping hand that you need to succeed.

They basically gave you the tools that you needed. I'm sure there are programs that are still out there, even though it's not called that particular name. There are programs that exist and you have to figure out if they are out there.

Steven: Disability services is wonderful, but remember that's more generic and chances are if you're not going to speak up, you might never get the accommodations you need. And if you do need them, you need to be the one, and no one can tell you when to do it, if ever you have to have the courage and build it up to what the professor pretty much in that first week or first day and say, hey, like and wait till after the class is over and say, hey, this is who I am, I'm your class, And then just say, like, if you're comfortable what disability you have or at the very least say I'm with disability services, I have these accommodations, how can you help me? How can you help me be more successful?

You have to ask that question. No one's going to ask that for you because the professor is there to teach. Not that they don't care, but if you don't bring it to their attention, they're not going to look for it.

It's not like the teachers in high school where they're trained to look for that because they already know what the IEP is ahead of time before they even have you. Professors don't have that. They don’t. You have like a more like individualized plan in college for sure.

But the American Disabilities Act, you get covered under. But again, the more generic. So you have to be your own advocate and knowing where to go, who to talk to, you know, utilize your professors' office hours. There is like I was in some professors' office hours multiple times in a week, just even just to get papers, looked at, because I knew that would help me get the higher grade because, that's the secret. If you know the teaching style of how that professor teaches and you will that style find professors like that and they happen to be in your major stick with that particular professor for every class or as many as you can.

I did that at Kean, and one in three professors there was fantastic. So much so I don't know how I pulled this off, I had them five times in two years and yeah, it was intense. But I loved his style so much because his style matched my learning abilities.

That's what you need to know too,  how you learn and know, like what your strengths are, but also know what your limitations are. Your limitations shouldn’t be defining you, It shouldn't be like hurting you, academically. But you need to know how far I like to go so that you're not going to be putting yourself in a situation where you're going to be stressed out. 

Steven: You know, that's what the accommodations are for, like extended time, wherever you take a test, maybe typing it out if you know, you've got terrible handwriting and you don't want your professor trying to struggle to read what you write.

So things like that. They call out books on tape, a digital reader nowadays or like you have it like on the flash drive and you can also hear the recordings back.

It's just a matter of utilizing your resources, knowing who to go to, and when, because that's really what got me where I needed to. They even have counseling services for free at colleges and universities. A lot of people don't utilize those resources.

And the best part is they don't tell you this really too often, but the secret is, for the most part at least, that Middlesex County College isn't the case, I'm certain isn't true for all places.

Steven: Even after you graduate, you can pretty much go back whenever you want, like you can go back as an alumni and it will never be a problem. I've done it a few times. It's nice, you know, because it shows that you have a deeper connection with what you were there for. 

But the reality is you have to be willing to accept them, what your limitations are, but knowing how to work those. Even when I had a reading lab, which is probably where I tackled my disability the hardest for reading comprehension, I went to reading lab sessions after the classes were over many times until I got it drilled into

my head on how to read better and because I used to hate reading as a kid. For the longest time and it took me over a year to read a book. Now I can literally read a book and know how to read better as well.

I can actually enjoy it and actually remember it more. So like the skills do work. You just have to be able to apply yourself to knowing what your resources are, knowing the knowledge, but also know apply yourself. knowledge doesn't help.

Knowledge is to me, there’s that old saying where people say knowledge is power. I don't think so because it’s also how you apply yourself and what you do with that knowledge. If you're just given that knowledge and that's great, but what are you going to do with it?

Arthur: I love so much of what you said, and I think it's really important that self-advocacy is just so important. As you said, nobody will want it more than you or should want it more than you.

And you have to it's important to speak up for yourself and also to be aware of the resources that do exist, like the student disability services, on college campuses. They have programs like that on most, if not all college campuses, and they are there to help. And you know, as you said, you can't expect the professor to know every single thing about every student. So you have to go to them and like you said, utilize their office hours and spend time talking to them and let them know what your strengths are, what your limitations are.

I think that's so important to mention the limitations and how you both can work together to make sure that you are successful because they do the professors they do want to help. And at the same time, you as your own self-advocate have to let them know how they can help and what is most helpful, because they won't know unless you share it with them.

Arthur: I appreciate you everything that you've said during this conversation. And, I'm very excited again and happy that you have joined me for this episode and shared your perspective and your experience of things that inspire you and how you were able to be your own self-advocate through your academic career. And, and it has led you to doing great things in your life. So, Steven, I appreciate you for taking the time out this evening to join me.

Steven: Anytime. My pleasure. 

Arthur: Yeah. So I appreciate you doing this for me. So thank you. And I will be in touch with you soon.

Steven: Sounds Good. Thanks so much for having me.

Arthur: Thank you for listening to this episode of the Inclusion Think Tank podcast. This podcast is brought to you by New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education. Don't forget to subscribe to the podcast on YouTube or Spotify and to follow us on social media @NJCIE. Until next time.

On this episode of the Inclusion Think Tank Podcast, I welcome my guest Jillian Reich. We discuss the benefits, the challenges, and the effectiveness of inclusion.

Arthur: Welcome to the Inclusion Think Tank podcast presented by New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education, NJCIE. As the name suggests, this podcast will discuss inclusive education and, most importantly, why it works. 

On this episode, I welcome my guest Jillian Reich. Jillian is an inclusion facilitator and an adjunct professor at Montclair State University in the School of Secondary and Special Education. We discuss the benefits, the challenges, and the effectiveness of inclusion. 

Arthur: I would like to welcome everyone back to another episode of the Inclusion Think Tank Podcast. This podcast is presented by New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education. I'm your host, Arthur Aston, and today I am speaking with Jillian, who is an inclusion facilitator with NJCIE.

So Jillian, thank you for joining us on the show today. We're happy to have you. 

Jillian: Thank you so much for having me. 

Arthur: Yes. So could you tell us a little bit about who you are, and I ask our guests to share one fun thing that you like to do in their free time.

Okay, sure. So my name is Jillian Reich. I am an inclusion facilitator, as well as an adjunct professor at Montclair State University in the School of Secondary and Special Education. I historically am a school teacher starting in New York City as a school teacher for about a decade and then an instructional leader. 

Something I do in my spare time for fun. Well, I like running, walking, biking, swimming, all those kinds of things. So I like to do kind of active things for fun. Taking up Pickleball this summer, I'm going to take my first surf lesson in a week, so I like to keep moving.

Arthur: Oh, that's fantastic. I have, um, I've shared with other guests that I was born with a disability, and there is an accessible and inclusive surf. I believe they're nonprofit and they travel the country on the shorelines and they host different events for people with disabilities to learn how to surf and things like that. So I'm planning on doing that this year. 

Jillian: Yes. Good. And that's a great goal. 

Arthur: Yes. So to start off the conversation, can you tell us how you became interested in inclusive education?

Jillian: Certainly. I began my career as an educator as a second or third career kind of for myself in my twenties, and I did so through the New York City teaching fellows. So this is a program where the city finds applicants who would like to have their graduate school and teacher training paid for but in turn will provide instruction to students in high-need areas. So of course, the high-need areas involve mostly mathematics, science, and special education where they really needed teachers. This program still exists, I believe, but in my case I was assigned to a special education school where actually it was a separate location school and all the students in the building were special needs students. 

I had a great experience there because I had wonderful leadership. I learned a lot, but I did see that there was this need for inclusion because these students in the segregated environment were showing kind of what the research tells us about maybe perpetuating certain behaviors or not having models that might be available in the inclusive environment. So in after a long stretch there and learning and reading, I really came to understand how important inclusive education could be for so many students. 

With my work with Montclair State University, I've been able to really gain new information and insights from not only research and so on, but being in schools and being part of inclusive classrooms I've seen such success in. 

Arthur: Yeah. I think that has been a very common thing among our guests where they say they've had the experience of being in the classroom to see inclusive education settings and to see them at work. And that has really opened their eyes to the possibilities of how it can work and what it's capable of doing and all of the positive things that come out of it. So that's a really great how it is a common theme among the guests that I've had recently on the podcast. 

Arthur: Can you define inclusive education and tell us what it means to you? 

Jillian: Yeah, I think about it in two ways.

I think inclusive education can be defined through the lens of maybe the learner or the student. And in this way, I would say inclusive education is really about meeting the needs of all learners in an environment with high expectations, yet flexible curricula.

But I think there's a deeper meaning, so I've been reflecting a lot and reading a lot about why we really have school. And it's these kinds of questions you go through life, we stop and really think that it really challenged my own thoughts about why do we have schools and what is the purpose or what are we expecting them to provide families and students? 

Jillian:  I think—so this is kind of the second layer of my definition—there's that first instructional student layer, but then I think there's a wider community definition for inclusion, which really has to do with this notion of creating citizens. We're going to be part of this diverse community. And it's sort of to me, an inclusive classroom is sort of like a training ground for that citizenship. So, yes, there is the day to day instructional, inclusive definition, which would be meeting the needs of all the learners in this kind of flexible but high expectation way. Then there's also the definition of inclusion, which really is about perpetuating citizenship among a diverse community or a diverse society. So I think it's sort of there's a smaller and a bigger way to look at it.

But for me, both of those are part of the definition. 

Arthur: Yes, I’m glad you brought in both of those definitions because it is very true and certainly the way that, we expect people to operate in the world at large.

When you said, it's a very diverse community. that's a great first place to learn is and it's full of how to see people who are different then you are and how to learn about those differences and educate yourself about those differences. 

Jillian: I think that's yeah, and I think it's it's a lot of that like really being able to say, I appreciate and I value all these different people around me, but it's also like a really good muscle memory in a way, because what happens as we grow and we guess, okay, college and career, this part of what schools are doing, right, they're preparing us for college and career. But we hear from employers all the time that we need to be collaborative, we need to problem solve, we need to work with all sorts of people.

So it's not only this social-emotional piece of work that's really great and I value everybody. It's also that, I'm better at or I'm creating students who are better at collaboration and better at figuring out how to how to work together in a way that maybe they're not used to.

Jillian: So I think that yeah, what you're saying is right on for sure. Yes. 

Arthur: Those are the again, like you said, those are the skills that they want us to bring into the workforce as we get older. And there's you know, it's a great way to start them, start the students early in school so that they are prepared with working with other diverse individuals. 

Arthur: Can you share with us some of the pieces of an inclusive classroom and what an inclusive classroom would look like to you? 

Jillian Sure. I think that there are probably a couple of angles to look at this.

So if you were to walk into an inclusive classroom, what would that overtly look like? I think you probably see really in a well-executed intensive classroom, you'd see purpose-driven instruction to clear purpose as well as varied learning activities, attention to different modes of learning, the principles of universal design for learning in place as well as differentiation. You would see these things when you walk in so you'd notice students moving from one thing to another. You'd notice talking, listening, creating all these different modes of expression and whatnot.

I think if you were to also be lucky enough to see that classroom maybe behind the scenes or over a trajectory of time, you would also notice a few really important things about an inclusive classroom, which I guess number one would be dedication to assessments.

So I think you would see teachers who are really committed to ensuring that their practices are working and constantly, whether it's informally, or formally, assessing and evaluating and refining what they're doing every day. So I think that's a part you might not see right when you walk in a room, but it should be happening behind the scenes.

I also think you should, if you're able again to see this classroom over time, see a lot of flexible grouping. So you're noticing Tuesday, these guys are working together; Friday, these guys are working together and it's always evolving and changing.

So sometimes at first glance, you might not notice these things, but if you're able to really see a classroom perform over time, you start noticing the commitment to things like assessment and flexible grouping; pivoting and shifting and refining what we're doing based on what we're getting back from students.

I think you'd also see some individualized notions, such as feedback that's kind of personal. Maybe some ways that we vary the activities that look different from student to student, that really respond to their needs. So some of that individualization too, but in a very natural kind of organic way so that, again, from day to day, it may look different, but it's there.

Arthur: Can you share with us some of the challenges that are associated with inclusive education? 

Jillian: Yeah, for sure. I think that that's so wise because sometimes we ignore when we know there's going to be challenges, and what good is that, right? 

We have to try to solve these problems. So, there are varied challenges. I think one thing is really just training our professionals to excel at this and to continue to grow as inclusive educators.

So I think there is a challenge with for some schools or some staff, maybe just a knowledge base. Not every teacher was trained in how to do these things and may need that support. I think there's perhaps when you ask a teacher, I've worked with teachers for many, many years as a coach, as a facilitator, and so on. Time is always an issue, right? Teachers have an enormous amount of work. They are so important and they are so inundated because they care so much and they want to do well. So they feel like they don't have enough time and time is always precious for them.

So I think there is, as part of a cultural response in a school, an issue with enough time to plan, to prepare, to reflect on assessments and so on. I also believe that there is, with in regards to time, a challenge in, like I said, this cultural shift, working smarter, not harder.

So I think we tend to, as educators want so badly to affect change. And we're working so hard to do that. But perhaps there's a new way to look at something we're doing and maybe allow us to work in a way that's more effective without being overworked or not having enough time.

So there are probably some things we can do to help our teachers do that better. In that same vein, there are a couple of other cultural things that I think are challenges. I think there is a rigidity to the way we do things as humans, right?

Jillian: So we tend to do things. I think there is some research, some psychology behind this. Like when we are asked to change or to amend something we're doing, we resist that because maybe we're afraid we're going to lose something of value, we’re not sure it's going to work, whatever the case might be. So I think there's like a little bit of work to be done there in terms of the culture in a school to kind of really embrace that sort of change or new learning.

Jillian: As well. If we're talking about inclusive education, another thing that might happen in schools, which we do see as facilitators a lot, is that the idea of inclusion often relies on staff working together and faculty coming together and teachers either being called teaching or teachers or collaborating, and sometimes developing those partnerships is not honored enough. 

Jillian: So I think about baseball, and when you have spring training, who are the first people that go to spring training? Pitchers and catchers, right? So I don't know if we really know why, but I think that they do that because maybe somebody knows. I don't know. I like baseball, but it's not about baseball. But perhaps they do that because these two people and these groups of people have to be collaborative and have to have a strong basis, a relationship in order to work together.

So they physically start before the rest of the team starts because it's so important that they're a partnership. So I think that's another challenge. We don't always honor that enough in our in our inclusive environments. And that's a challenge I think we could overcome trying to really treat those relationships with the care they need. 

Arthur: I love the baseball analogy. That was good. That was really great. It's something like you said, why do they do that? Like, we all know it. 

But then it is I think it is exactly what you said because they do have to, the pitcher in the catcher have to really get each other and understand each other and what the signals are and all of that to make a successful team, to start as the basis of that team, to make sure the other team doesn't get hits and stuff. So. Yeah, that was really good. 

Jillian, That’s true. And you say the signals, that analogy can kind of go on, right? Like they know the signals they kind of know each other that it is very much like that same kind of a partnership of perhaps what might be a co-teacher or a collaborative approach. 

Arthur: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So it is a great analogy. 

Arthur: So on the flip side of that, can you share with us some of the benefits that you've seen in inclusive education?

Jillian: Yeah, I think this relates—to answer this—kind of relates back to the earlier definition that I think about and that again, this kind of global or universal benefit is that we are creating citizens of a community with all different people.

And that, of course, is the far-reaching, really important benefit. But we know from research that there's also just academic benefits. Widely, students with IEPs perform better in inclusive classes than not. And we know that there are some examples of that as well with students who do not have IEPs still showing academic gains within an inclusive classroom. So I think that there's a little more room for research in that area to be great, to keep learning more about how students who are in an inclusive environment as general education students are growing. I think that's really, I would love to keep reading more about that, learning more about that. I think we have a way to go to learn more about that. And in particular, because sometimes those people shift, Right? 

So while the student with an IP may remain in the classroom over years, that's not always true for the student without so perhaps learning more. I think there's a lot of room to learn about that and from what we see so far, we know that those students perform well academically in inclusive classrooms.

So again, on the day-to-day and the immediate output, there are benefits academically, and then why do we have this benefit of creating the kind of world we want to live in? 

Arthur: Yeah, that's I always love those two questions of the challenges and the benefits to see what everybody's answers are. And I just love them because there are challenges like accent where just about everything we do and you know, but there are ways to get around them and the benefits, the positives always outweigh the negatives and the challenges. So that's really great to hear firsthand. 

Jillian: They’re so big, right? The benefits are so large and the challenges are like little things. You're going to check and fix and check effects, but the benefits of these big heavy-duty things, and I think even selfishly as an educator, I think there's a lot of benefits to the teacher, him or herself, because when you're in an environment where you are really tasked with teaching to a wide group of learners, you become such a better teacher. So I think there's a lot of benefit to the educator themselves because they're going to just grow and progress as an educator, whereas if they were in a very homogeneous environment, there's not that kind of growth always. So I think we also really get benefit beyond, you know, beyond the students and their learning. I think we get we grow a lot, too. 

Arthur: Yeah. And I like what you said originally with when I asked about the challenges that, you know, we know the challenges are there, but we have to acknowledge them. We have to say what they are, and, that's how we are able to fix them and get through them and work through them by identifying what they are. So that's really important key, key piece there. 

Arthur: So to conclude this conversation, I have just one more question, and that is, what is one thing that you feel can be done in every school to improve inclusive education? 

Jillian: There’s so many like quick moves I think we can make to make small movements in inclusive education, and I do talk about those a lot when I work with schools, and there is a place for that. But when I reflect on maybe somewhere where I can generalize, where there's a lot of room for improvement, I might actually zero in on teacher evaluations as a place where we could really help grow inclusive practice.

So I think, you know, we know that organizations that operate as collaborative, problem solving places do better. We know that schools that do better. So, for instance, schools that say we have an issue with reading in our school or reading scores are really low and they work with every educator to make them teachers of reading. They do better. So the drama teacher, the music. Everybody's a teacher of reading and they really grow that practice because they're solving that problem, but we have to help our reading source.

Same idea here. If we have a school that says we're collaborative this out in school, our problem right now is that our education is not inclusive enough or our practice needs to grow. Then that should be the focus and through teacher evaluations, grow that practice.

So when you look at a lot of teacher evaluations, there's some language about differentiation maybe, maybe about are all learners kind of like are you mixing learning activities and varying things in that way? But I don't know that there's that many examples of schools that do a really good job using the teacher evaluation as a place to really discuss inclusive education.

Jillian: So I'm not talking about a teacher evaluation that's punitive or meant to even reward for more as an end goal or a purpose. Just like what we do with our students, we set an objective.

It should be clear. They should know what they should say it they should. We say it. Same with the teachers. What is my objective as a teacher in this school? Here are some things on the evaluation and these are our talking points.

We're going to focus a lot on inclusive practice. I also think that teacher evaluations should be written in a way or modified based on maybe where that teacher is. So if I'm a brand new teacher and I've had no training in inclusive practice, maybe my evaluation that I'm kind of marked on looks a little different, and it's kind of the beginning that nascent stage of inclusive practice. But if I'm a teacher who has taught inclusive for years, I have special education background, whatever the case is, maybe I'm on the higher side of that spectrum, my evaluation demands a little more of me, so everybody keeps moving. 

So I think that's just like a place in my mind. I think schools could do better. There could be a better feeling around evaluations that they're really about conversation and growth, and they can focus more on inclusive practices that maybe many of them do at the moment. 

Jillian: That would be my one thing. But I have more. 

Arthur: Thank you for your time today and for your knowledge and the pieces of education that you've provided for this conversation, and a part of us doing our part in raising awareness about inclusive education.

I really enjoyed our conversation today, and I thank you for your time. 

Jillian: Thank you so much. It was so nice talking with you. 

Arthur: It was nice talking with you as well. And have a good day.

Thank you for listening to this episode of the Inclusion Think Tank podcast. This podcast is brought to you by New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education. Don't forget to subscribe to the podcast on YouTube or Spotify and to follow us on social media @NJCIE. Until next time.

On this episode of the Inclusion Think Tank Podcast, My guests are Barry Barbarasch, Kristine Esposito, and Sol Heckelman. In our discussion we take on the topic of re-imagining the school psychologist. 

Arthur: Welcome to the Inclusion Think Tank podcast presented by New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education, NJCIE. As the name suggests, this podcast will discuss inclusive education and, most importantly, why it works. On this episode, I welcome my guests Barry Barbarasch, Kristine Esposito, and Sol Heckelman.

They are three members of the New Jersey Association for School Psychologists, and we discuss the role of school psychologists as it relates to inclusive education. 

I would like to welcome everyone back to another episode of the Inclusion Think Tank podcast.

I'm your host, Arthur Aston, and I'm here today with three guests. This is my first time hosting a show with three guests, so we have Sol Heckelman, Barry Barbarasch, and Kristine Esposito. So thank you all for joining me today on this episode.

I would like for each of you to introduce yourselves and give a little bit of background about who you are and what you do. Just to add that we'll start with Kristine, go to Barry, and then to Sol. 

Kristine: I’m Kristine Esposito. I'm a school psychologist. I currently work in Philadelphia. I previously worked in New Jersey for several years in various districts, and I'm currently the president-elect for the New Jersey Association of School Psychologists. 

Barry: Barry Barbarasch, I was, I still am a school psychologist. I worked in schools in New Jersey and New York for many years. I'm an adjunct professor at Rowan University, including supervising practicum students, and I also teach at the Philadelphia College of Osteopathic Medicine in their school psychology doctoral program, and I'm a past president of the New Jersey Association of School Psychologists.

Sol: Sol Heckelman, I am a school psychologist, and I was the director of special services in a number of districts all over, and I'm retired now, but I still keep my hand in and I kind of bother folks a lot just about how things are and how they should be. I'm also a past president of the Association, and I also was a past chair of the state's Special Education Advisory Council. So well, that's basically who I am. 

Arthur: I would like to start the conversation by discussing a recent white paper that was recently presented that talked about moving on from the discrepancy model to a tiered intervention model for classification purposes. Can you give us the background on how New Jersey works now, why this is important to change, and what change would actually be.

Barry: Well, I can get started if you like. 

Arthur: Yes, that would be great, Barry.

Barry:  and please, you guys jump in. Just a little bit of history from IDEA. IDEA allows for three ways of determining whether a child has a learning disability.

One: Is it an academic intelligence discrepancy? Second, is a response to intervention, and the third is any alternative research-based procedure. That's IDEA. That's federal law. New Jersey allows for the discrepancy. It's required to allow for the response to intervention, but that it does not provide for any third alternative research-based method.

The problem is that the discrepancy model that's described in IDEA has really been shown through research to be invalid, and actually does harm to children by denying them services until a discrepancy, an undefined discrepancy arises, which often by the time that takes place, the child might be several years since they were first seen as having difficulties, which makes it more difficult to provide them with services. So our bill, what our bill would do, is eliminate this discrepancy, which legally we can do. Many states have done that already, and add in a third alternative research-based model, which many states have, but New Jersey doesn’t.

Sol:  All right, I’ll jump, and Barry that's a very nice framework of what exists and a specific problem with the discrepancy model, and Barry alluded to the fact that it's not valid scientifically, is that it seems to be a very “scientific” issue using numbers, and that's attractive to everybody. But there are several problems with that. and specifically, what is that when children are very, very young, it's very difficult to get a large discrepancy because of the nature of the numbers that you get with young children. 

More importantly, discrepancy depends very much on the particular instruments you use. And, for example, there are many districts that require what they say is a standard deviation and a half. Some say 16 points, some say 21, some say 23. So it's an arbitrary number to begin with, and then it depends upon which cognitive or intelligence measure you're using, which achievement measure you're using. So it's a very variable kind of thing.

Third is, and maybe most important, is that there are districts where the requirement, the policy is that unless a child shows a specific number at least of, let's say, 23 points, that they will not recognize that the child needs special services.

It's just required. To me, that means that that's the only valid, that’s the only criterion they're using, because unless the child gets that in that district, they won't allow it. So to us, that's number one, it's not only unethical, but it seems to be illegal in line with federal requirements.

What compounds this is in New Jersey, as we all know, is the home of home room, which means that every local board of education makes its own policy in this regard. So what then happens is in some districts, there is discrepancy and some and then too many, in some there's not.

There is a whole jumble of what's required and what's not required. So the long and short of it is that discrepancy is just a very misleading number and it serves no value that we can think of. The only “value” is that the child in the general education program in the regular class is not doing as well as the teacher feels he or she could do. OK, that's an issue. But if that was all there was, this discrepancy, then you would need to do any more testing or any more observation because the child has this discrepancy. So all the way around, it's just, it's the wrong thing to do. 

Kristine: I’m sure there are some psychologists who use that in my district, but most of us are actually trained on the third method and we try to use that as much as we can because we don't agree with discrepancy.

Most of us came from other districts where, as you guys were saying, it's a hard 23 points, and if they don't make that, you don't get services. And just one that one of the districts I worked in was that and we had several kids who were up for a reevaluation who previously were getting services all of a sudden, maybe the discrepancy was 22 points. Now they don't get services anymore. It's really unethical and it's not fair to these students. 

Barry: And quite honestly, it’s unnecessary because the law doesn't require children to be tested on a re-evaluation.

Kristine: That’s true. And some districts actually do make you test every three years. No, I was just going to say like, I think part of it is which I hate to say it, but part of it is the way to kind of keep their numbers low and special ed because they know that might happen. 

Barry: So you're left with a situation where a child, again, these numbers are all arbitrary. There is no, “number”. So districts create a number. So a child in first grade may have a 21 point discrepancy, and they're eligible for special education.

Three years later, they're tested. Well, now they have an 18 point discrepancy, even though they still need the services, the services have been taken from them.

Kristine: Exactly. And then what ends up happening too is then they're referred again. Probably the next year they're back in the gen-ed curriculum and now they're referred and we have to reevaluate again.

So it's- and then they're missing out on that specialized instruction that they were receiving this free for all those years and that- it's just it really does create quite a mess. And it's a shame for the students at the end of the day. 

Barry: It’s harmful to them. Well, that’s really been the impetus for our bill that was in the Senate, in the Assembly, to do away with the discrepancy. And to add in the option of a third alternative research-based method, which IDEA does allow for.

Kristine: And I think one more thing, if you don't mind me just jumping in. 

Barry: No, please.

Kristine: I think like a lot of times, people look at that hard number because it holds up legally with a lot of attorneys, and that's one thing that we do see in my district being a larger district.

You know, it's like, ‘Well, what's the number?’ They're always looking at the numbers for everything. And, you know, students are not numbers. Every child is an individual child. They have unique learning experiences. And if you're going to defend anything legally, as long as you do a comprehensive assessment and you could defend your reasoning as to why the student needs these particular services, it's going to hold up in court. I mean, that's always been my experience. 

Barry: I agree. 

Sol: Yeah. And I think what Kristine was saying is going to leads into something which to us is even more important, which is the whole value, or lack thereof, of the testing for special education and the emphasis on that. There are children who need a very unique kind of small group kind of setting for their particular needs. But the question is, how do you know who these children are? And what do you do for them so that they might not have to be in separate settings, but they could be taught in the regular program, and so another aspect that we want to emphasize as school psychologists and also for learning consultants, for that matter, is that the major efforts should be on how to work with these children, whether they have a “disability” or “special needs” or not in the regular setting, to the extent

that it's productive for them, for the children, and so there are various labels for those practices. One is a multilevel, multi-tiered system of support for New Jersey tiered system of support.

Barry: I think they've done away with that term, by the way, what I'm seeing is that MTSS. 

Sol: OK, so what that simply means in ordinary language, which is that you do whatever you can within the respect to the curriculum and the instructional techniques that a teacher has to work with the child.

That is Kristine was saying before, it's not the numbers, it's the individual children. So every child has his or her own learning style as his or her thing that they do well and that's what you just focus on. And in fact, what we would like to do is to get away from the emphasis on what the child can’t do, but what is it that a child can do and how can we the teacher, the other staff in the school. How can we capitalize on the strengths of the child? 

We all have disabilities. Some of us, more than others. some of my best friends, but what we all do, is we try to work around that. We try to capitalize on the strengths we have. Some of us have more strengths than other folks have, and so that should be the focus for everybody.

If it turns out, then, that all of the efforts that are made and all of the special techniques that are used in general ed are really just not sufficient for that child, then you begin to think of special education.

But the goal would be to keep the child functioning at his or her best ability within the general education program. And then the label if you need to put a label on, in order to get something special. Well, OK.

But that's not really what we're aiming at to start with. 

Arthur: Such great answers from all of you to give a great understanding of what things are like and where you're aiming to take them, so thank you all for those great explanations. 

For our next question, it’s something that has been present in all of our lives with the pandemic going on, and I think we had all hoped for and anticipated for a COVID free school year for 2021 and 2022 and that everyone would be in some sort of mental recovery process by now from the pandemic.

Can you explain to us what is actually happening in the schools and how are school psychologists working to deal with this trauma with the students? 

Barry: Well, I know in the schools and there is literature on it every day about how it's not just kids, it's teachers as well, and the issue of mental health is probably the predominant issue in education today as it applies to the pandemic.

We have kids coming back to school. There was something on the news a couple of weeks ago that there are 140,000 kids have come back to school having either a parent or a primary caretaker dying, and to compound things of that number, 60% are kids from minority populations. So that just makes it that much more. Kids from minority populations, low SES, always bear the brunt of this. But I know in the schools they're seeing a lot of depression, a lot of anxiety, and that involves the teachers as well as the students. And so that's a lot of what's going on now. Kristine, I don’t know if you see any of that with the kids.

Kristine: Absolutely. Students and teachers, I think it's mental health for everyone. 

It's actually kind of funny, I was just talking to one of my colleagues the other day because we thought last year was very challenging, but this year, I feel it is actually worse. I think everyone's, just this year, we've had difficulties with, not just with mental health, but just like transportation sometimes, and then people are getting COVID still. So then they're going out and some people are virtual, and some schools are not virtual like parents aren't sure what to do until the night before because we might find out that a school is going virtual the next day.

It's just kind of still all over the place. At the moment, currently, we have half of our district is virtual, half is not. We have to find out the night before whether or not they're going to be.

And a lot of staff members are out because they're getting COVID and then we can't find anybody to fill that position because we can't get substitute teachers to come in. So we have some of us, the psychologists are going in to try to help with the classes. We have people from like administration coming in and it's just…And then again, I think the worst part of it is the mental health, across the board for everybody. 

We're just seeing so many kids, even like first graders, are just anxious. They feel like they can't keep up. They missed out on some of that instruction from kindergarten. The other part of it, social skills, it's just kind of getting everybody acclimated back to being in the classroom. That was difficult, too.

So it's definitely been a challenging year. 

Barry: And it's not necessarily getting a whole lot better at this point. Right?

Kristine: I mean, again, it started to felt like almost like you saw a little glimmer of hope, right?

And then we had this variant come through, and I think since the middle of December, it's just been going like that, where people are closing- not people, the schools are closing.

So like students, the staff members have to come in, but then some of the staff members are out. It's just, it's been a lot.

Barry: To say the least. 

Kristine: Yeah.

Sol: So that's a great way to frame the issue. So one question that comes up is, so what do we do about that? And we have to recognize, number one, that there are limits that what we try to do is going to take a lot of effort and a lot of patience.

But I think in a sense, it's the kind of thing that we should ordinarily be doing, except there is much more pressure at this point. For example, ordinarily schools, and a good part of the school psychologist time and social workers should be working with staff and with children and with the parents for that matter, in terms of again, focusing on how they feel about themselves, how they feel about the tasks that they're faced with, about the stresses and try to capitalize again from a mental health point of view of what their strengths are, and what how they can feel good about themselves, how they can feel comfortable in tackling the academic issues, the relationships with other kids. 

This is true all the time. It's emphasized right now because of the concerns that Kristine and Barry have raised. And you can throw all kinds of extra math and language arts and science classes at the kids in order to try to boost them up for the state testing that comes along, but if they're not put together, so to speak, and they're not functioning well as individual people, then all that extra academic stuff is not going to do very much for them. What they need is to feel more comfortable with themselves, to feel that they can tackle issues that come up.

Very often, some people can do that on their own. But all too often, people need that extra counseling, if you will, or that extra chance to look at themselves and understand what their capabilities really are, and then they can go ahead and use their own abilities to the maximum.

Barry: I think one of the issues is: are the schools, is the school, as a system, set up to address things like this? And my sense is that everybody's been caught by surprise. One of the things that we're looking to do in conjunction with some other associations is work together to see how can we address the mental health issues for the kids and the families? Because I don't know if the schools are necessarily systemically set up to address say something like a pandemic and how it impacts kids' mental health and frankly, the teachers’ mental health also.

I know someone who is a speech therapist and she goes in a half a day, but she doesn't know from day to day which kids she's going to see in person, which kids are going to be online, when she's going to see them. And it's extremely stressful for her, and I know other teachers are experiencing the same thing, but the schools I don't know, systemically, are set up to address those kinds of issues. And I think that's what needs to happen is taking like a big picture look also at it and saying what can the schools do systemically to address the needs of the kids and the needs of the teachers. Sometimes we forget about the teachers. But they're experiencing the same thing, 

Barry: Kristine, have you seen that as well?

Kristine: Absolutely. Yeah, I totally agree, and again, back to the mental health piece, a student, is not going to be available to learn if they're not there fully. I think that’s what Sol was saying.

You have to be mentally feeling good and available to learn it, actually able to retain those concepts and everything that they're learning. So, mental health across the board, I think, is key right now, and that's something that we need to be focusing more on.

But I think part of the problem too, though, is because, my personal experience seems to be like the districts are getting a lot of pressure to “recover” from what was lost academically.

But again, we can't push that so much if there's still so much trauma and everything from the pandemic. So we really have to focus on the mental health, making sure everybody's feeling safe and is available to learn before we can actually start focusing on that.

Kids are pretty resilient, I think, as far as gaining those skills back, once we start, being able to get to that point where we could be great. If you're going to just start kind of forcing that and pushing that immediately, you're going to shut down a little bit because we still need to focus on that mental health piece. 

Barry: Well, it just makes the problem worse now you have to deal with the pressure. You're really correct. 

Arthur: Yeah, and I think that's a great segue into our last question, which is: if we were to reimagine the role of the school psychologist for inclusive schools, what would that look like, and what would be different from the way that it is now? 

Barry: Well, well, if we're going to re-imagine it, I like to do things like that. I had conversations with Sol about, you know, if you had $1,000,000, what would you do?

I think for school psychologists, the idea that the primary role of the school psychologist is to be a gatekeeper of the special education needs to go. I know I wasn't trained to do that. We're trained to do is provide an array of services to all children, including kids with disorders, disabilities, whatever word, whatever the word of the day is, but to provide for the needs of all children because, to me, learning is on a continuum. It's not like, you have this score, so you have this disability and you have that scores so you don’t. That’s not true at all. It's on a continuum. And so we should be providing services that reflect that continuum. That's where the multi-tiered of support, makes so much sense. But I think if I'm going to reimagine my role, my role would have been to be this school psychologist for all the children, which may involve; reshaping how many school psychologists there are, reshaping how services are provided? But to me, that's what needs to happen. And that's really not the question. Kristine, you can speak to this maybe better than I can at this point.

But in my time, my primary role was to be the…to classify kids to do re-evaluations. That should not be the should that's that needs to be some of it, but it shouldn't be predominant. It should be a part of a much larger role. 

Sol: Yeah, to pick up on that in a variety of ways. Again I’d say Barry phrased that very well. I think what we have to do, and all of us, we have to rethink how we approach the whole idea of “education” or “formal education” in the schools. And we have to look at the kids not as what category they're in or may be in, and whether it's special ed or not. But as individual functioning people, as individuals, with their own style. 

We have to think of the school as everything in society, as a dynamic, it's not just there's this kid who has this particular problem. So it's the medical model, which is this kid is carrying a disease around with him. So let's find out what the cause of that disease is, and then let's either cure it, which is impossible in many practical ways, or let's put him or her aside in some special setting, and so they won't be contaminating the other kids in the regular classes, and let teacher work with the other kids who don't take as much time. That's totally wrong. We're not always aware of the fact that we're really doing that. What we need to do is to look at the dynamics of the school.

The school is a social setting. Everybody has interactions with many other people. Everybody has their own needs and thoughts that they bring to things. So social relationships are extremely important. A child may do better with one teacher than another teacher.

Not that the teacher is better or not as good, but it's simply, that teacher just picks up on the chemistry, so to speak, with that particular child. The children, there’s an interaction, so if a school psychologist is in a school and gets the sense of, well, ‘these people work well together, this particular teacher works better with that teacher. These particular children function better in this kind of a setting,’ the psychologist is in a position to capitalize on that and to make suggestions or to work with the teachers in terms of capitalizing on their strengths and their particular ways of instruction.

We all have our own ways as teachers to do instruction, as school psychologists, as interviewers, to pick up on particular aspects of what we're doing, and we're not always aware of that. So one way is to become more aware of ourselves, by the way, social-emotional learning, which we're all aware of these days, I think, is very much the idea of being aware of your own emotions and how they're functioning and what you're doing to capitalize on them in a productive way and not to be afraid of the emotions, but to recognize that we're all emotional in many ways.

So that's a long-winded way of saying that the school psychologist, if they have the time and the opportunity to work with everyone, staff, as Barry says, as well as children, that that's what we should be doing. 

And by the way, just to throw this in, not every school psychologist is great at everything. We like to think we're pretty good, but it depends on your training and it depends upon your own interest and your own motivations. So some psychologists will be terrific at counseling and group dynamics and so on. Some will be excellent at investigating particular learning styles of kids, and what the dynamics are, their particular ways of learning. So it's a variety of things. But in general, that's where we should be.

Arthur: Kristine, did you have anything to add to that?

Kristine: I think they covered a lot of it.

I was just going to say, I think for me, my role kind of changed a little bit as a school psychologist, depending on the district I worked in as well. Like in a larger system, it was almost kind of like, stay in your lane and this is what you do. Kind of what Barry was saying that you're the gatekeeper for special education. Sometimes in smaller districts, you could get more involved with doing some counseling. I used to do a social skills group with preschoolers and kindergartners.

So, if I could re-imagine what my role would be, it would be getting more involved like they were saying, you know, with stuff, with MTSS with counseling. I love doing that. And I think right now, mental health and social-emotional learning is such a big push, and I think that's kind of where we should be working more, not just doing evaluations and determining whether or not a student needs special education. 

Arthur: Thank you all for this conversation. This is a great conversation with you all.

I appreciate you taking out the time from your busy schedules to participate in this conversation today. Thank you all again for your time today and enjoy your day and the weekend.

Barry: Thank you. Thanks a lot. Thanks. 

Arthur: Have a good day. 

Thank you for listening to this episode of the Inclusion Think Tank podcast. This podcast is brought to you by New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education. Don't forget to subscribe to the podcast on YouTube or Spotify and to follow us on social media @NJCIE. Until next time.

On this, part two of my conversation with Vera Piasecki, Vera and I are joined by Fred, CEO of New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education. Fred and Vera share a behind-the-scenes look at the steps it took to achieve this inclusive setting in the school district where Vera’s daughter Hannah attends.  

Arthur: Welcome to the Inclusion Think Tank podcast presented by New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education NJCIE. As the name suggests, this podcast will discuss inclusive education and, most importantly, why it works. 

On this episode, I welcome back to the podcast, Vera Piasecki. On the last episode, Vera shared how her daughter Hannah benefited socially and academically from being in an inclusive education setting. On this, part two of our conversation, Vera and I are joined by Fred, CEO of New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education. Fred and Vera share a behind-the-scenes look at the steps it took to achieve this inclusive setting in the school district where Hannah attends.  

Arthur: Welcome to another episode of the Inclusion Think Tank podcast presented by New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education in our last episode, I welcomed my guest Vera Piasecki, and I am happy to welcome Vera back for a part two conversation. We are also joined today by Fred, who is the CEO of New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education. And thank you both for joining me today for this part two episode 

In today's conversation, we will be taking a look at the steps that the school district where Vera’s daughter Hannah attends, the steps they have taken to better embrace an inclusive education setting. So with that being said, I am turning over the conversation to Fred.

Arthur: So again, thank you both for joining me for this very important part two of our conversation.

Fred & Vera: Thank you, Arthur. 

Fred: And Vera, always a pleasure. The steps that happened, that we learned about in the last podcast are so familiar for, unfortunately, too many parents out there who are trying to get their children included but may struggle with reluctant school personnel or different, difficult situations. Eventually, for you, this kind of came to a head where you had really no other choice except to pursue a legal option. 

Do you want to tell us a little bit about that, and what the result of that was?

Vera: Yes. Hannah had been fully included up through preschool into fourth grade, and academically, she had held her own in the beginning. As we expected, as she got older, the gap widened and it required modifications versus just accommodations.

The curriculum really needed to be modified. They felt she had to be removed into a self-contained environment. We filed a complaint with the state. The state agreed with us, that modifications could happen in the general ed setting. Immediately after we won that complaint, the district had set a meeting required to do numerous evaluations, including a psychiatrist, and reconvened a meeting very quickly. And that was in March of her fourth grade year, and on March 15th, they announced to us that not only did they not want to remove her to a resource room in her same school, they wanted to remove her in 15 days completely from that school and have her take a bus across town to another school where she knew no children. Obviously, that was very upsetting because they skipped a whole bunch of tiers of support, which could have at least kept her in her school with her friends that she'd known now for five years. 

Vera: We felt we had no other alternative than to file and so that we could stay put, so she could stay in her setting. After that, we hadn't had a lawyer up until that point, and we knew that we were now, it was beyond our capability.

And so we were able to get a lawyer and start the process of looking at expert witnesses and figuring out what our next steps were. Very overwhelming, very stressful to the family as a whole. My daughter has two older siblings who were at that point, were also in the school district and had spoken and been involved in some of our understanding challenges programs to educate students about children with different disabilities. So,  it was a very difficult time. So over the course of I believe it was the next almost two years we went through the court process.

If you had ever told me I'd be sitting up on a stand being drilled with questions from my district's lawyer, I would have laughed at you and thought that was silly, but I went through all of that and we were successful.

Vera: We won the case. In fact, the judge came back in record time within 30 days with her order, and that order required Hannah to be included in the general education setting with the appropriate supports. And one of the supports that she specifically highlighted was the need to train all of Hannah's teachers in inclusive practices.

And once that happened, I feel like our district, it was almost like a perfect storm of things that changed. So we won that court case, and at the same time, we had a change of administration that was coming in. We had a new director of special services. And we also had strategic five-year strategic planning that was happening in the district, and much to my surprise, during the strategic planning process, people stood up and made the second-highest priority behind class size was inclusion, and I didn't even stack the speakers Fred I swear to God. I was so stunned at the fact that people came up and stood in all of these sessions and made their points. 

Vera: The new head of special education when she came in, I don't even know if she was technically in the district yet, but you had somebody introduce us and she came right up to me and she said, If you don't mind, I think I have somebody that can do the training. I'd like to bring NJCIE in. And I said, OK. I mean, I hadn't researched to find it, but I went with it. She's now in middle school, and our relationship with the supports of having an NJCIE expert or consultant to support the teachers started when she started in sixth grade, and she's now an eighth. 

Fred: Continues to be fully included and is doing extremely well, and there's definitely been a tone shift. Obviously, with the teachers and everyone else in relation to her inclusion. 

Vera: yes, I think in sixth grade. I think there was a lot of investment time in training. I don't think, well, I know, because I asked all of the teachers that were involved whether they had ever included a child, like Hannah; Down Syndrome, speech impairment, physical, intellectual. If they had ever included a child, like Hannah, in their gen ed classrooms and across the board, nobody had. I think one teacher said they had, but it had failed because it wasn't supported. 

So, to have this group of teachers that have never done this before and the ending meetings and the meetings we had in between. I think there was a lot of investment up-front. I think you guys spent a lot of time, but then I discovered that the end of sixth grade going into seventh grade, well, guess what? The sixth-grade science co-teacher met with the seventh-grade science co-teacher and talked a little bit about Hannah.

So I think your involvement, meaning NJCIE’s involvement and consultants probably wasn't as intense in the following seventh and eighth-grade years as it was in sixth. But I found for the first time in my life, I went to an IEP meeting and for the first time, I wasn’t nervous about being told she was going to be removed and have to move from her friends and neighbors and carpool and everything else. 

Vera: The other thing that was really unique was that we really focused on her strengths, and we weren't just focusing on the negative and the fact that she was below grade level and all of these other things. It was just, I feel like the clouds parted and the sun is shining as she has been going through middle school. So it's been a wonderful experience. 

Fred: So it’s certainly has been a wonderful experience on our end as well.

The teachers were very receptive to all of the suggestions and strategies we might make, and were actively working to make modifications on their own. And it was really a great situation that came out of a maybe a horrible experience with the lawsuit.

But the post lawsuit period, especially for Hannah, has been fantastic. And there's our involvement in this. But really, from my vantage point, I see the lawsuit being this precipitating event for great change across the district, which you don't often see, but what I was told as far as their selection for director of Special Ed was that they were actively searching for someone who had an inclusive mindset to be the next director. That the lawsuit and the events around it had so influenced their change in mindset that they wanted to make sure whoever was coming in would lead their district in a more inclusive direction.

This is why I believe is a big reason why your current director was selected, because she has a track record of making school districts more inclusive. But the change, I mean, hasn't stopped there. They put number two on the strategic plan as becoming more inclusive for a fairly, in Jersey, a fairly large district to be fairly bold with saying, we need to become more inclusive as a district and following through by having it on the strategic plan, making inclusive ed hires and really pushing in that direction. It's really remarkable how much change the one situation your court case kicked off.

Fred: And it's been, what, two years, three years since that decision?

Vera: Yes. 

Fred: And the district has done a number of different things to help promote and make change within the district. They have signed up with different grant projects in the state focused on helping districts become more inclusive.

They are making placement changes. They are investing in training and support for their teachers of multiple buildings, and it is really remarkable how much this shifted the mindset, policy, and practices. 

Fred: Did you think that it would have this type of impact?

Vera: I don't know if we can take all the credit for the change. I had been told that my case was the impetus for looking for somebody who is more inclusive. The other thing that I came to realize during this, as a parent, Hannah was very unique in our district.

She might have been the only child with the extent of her needs being included in gen ed . So in a district back then, it had 9 or 10 thousand students. We were the ones, right? It's a very hard road, a very hard journey to follow.

And with our privacy and all of these other things, it was a journey that we kind of did quietly on our own. I didn't sit there and I had a few friends that I would talk to and bounce things off of, but it wasn't something that was broadcast throughout the community.

And when we were going through this process, my daughter, against my wishes actually put out an Instagram post talking about how disappointed she was in the district and that they tout inclusivity, and how it is important to understand different challenges.

And then they do something like this. You want to remove her sister, and that Instagram post got shared. Hundreds of times got posted on Facebook, and suddenly the community heard what was happening to Hannah. And the outpouring of these from these parents and the children, her classmates who had never been formally trained in the benefits of inclusion. 

They didn't know that they weren't walking the same road or challenges that I was. The support was just incredible. Kids were writing to the board of ED. They put together a video of pictures from Hannah from kindergarten and sent it to the board of ED.

Vera: That video actually got used in my court case because one of the claims of the district was that she had no friends in class. So we use that as a counterpoint, and so I think the community, it just made no sense to them.

So just from a commonsense standpoint, and I remember one mom looking at me and saying, why would they do this? She makes my son a better person. I will never forget her saying that to me. You know the things that he was learning just from her being in the class setting with her. 

So I think not just the formal filing, the documents going to court or whatever, but I think the whole challenge and then the community becoming informed also was part of the impetus. We want this to happen. 

I had people that didn't even have kids in Hannah's class that stood up to the board of ED meetings and spoke out against what was happening. Maybe it helped hire the right person, but it also got the community aware. So, but again, that community would not have been aware if Hannah hadn't been with them for five years. Right? Who would have known who or who would have cared

Fred: and it certainly continues to this day. We were at a parent group meeting not too long ago where we're all on the same page. There might have been slight differences here and there about pace and speed of change, but it was really refreshing to see such camaraderie and mutual respect and support.

And it's clear that we know the people in charge now are trying to do everything they can to support what the community has called for. So it is a really remarkable ending to a case involving an individual student.

And there certainly may have been other factors involved in promoting such a wide-scale change. But this has to be one of the more major ones and to see such positive results starting to form both for your daughter and for the district at large.

We don't often see that. We often hear that one person or one situation can change the world, but it's hard sometimes to find real-life examples. And I would definitely say this is a real-life example of it.

Fred: I certainly am thrilled to be a part of helping in any way that we can. 

Vera: Well, I have to say I definitely went gray during that process, Fred. But it is. I still get people be it in training sessions all over New Jersey, and I'll get a friend of mine may send me a screenshot of the case they're talking about somewhere up north Jersey or down south, And it's and it's our case not to lie, there are many times I sat there and said, Oh my gosh, what are we doing? And the stress and the finances and the time and all of those things.

But so to see the outcome benefit just more than one child. And now, following Hannah through her elementary school is another, a young lady with Down's syndrome. And I just got off a meeting with another parent who has a son with Down syndrome who's included in preschool.

And just to see those things and to hear, to sit in on meetings that are so positive, and focus on how the child has progressed. Things I never experienced because it was always talking about removing her, removing her, removing her. It really, I almost wanted to cry after one meeting because it was so positive. So still a long way to go. Sure. But when I see those changes, It makes me feel great that we were starting to head in the right direction.

Vera: And NJCIE’s  support has been great. 

Fred: We’re happy to help, but quite obviously you did the heavy lifting, as did the changes your district has made. But I thank you for the mention. 

Well, before we go, is there anything else that you wanted to say?

Vera: You’re putting me on the spot now? 

Fred: Yes. 

Vera: I think as our district goes through these changes, I think the grants that they're involved in will certainly help. And I've seen administrators where we kind of batted heads about where she should be placed and I see after them doing a self-assessment and being trained, I can see their mindset has changed and their understanding has changed. 

I'm very hopeful for the future, for the kids that follow. I still think we need a lot more parent training as well, because I think parents, particularly of kids that might be non-verbal or struggle with the issues that my child does. It's a scary thing. The concept of throwing them into a general education setting with up to 30 kids or something like that.

So, I think there's still a lot to be done, but hopefully, we'll see this through. 

Fred: Well, if you have anything to do with it, I'm sure they sure will. Well, it's always a pleasure seeing you, and talking about how great of an outcome everything is shaping up to be. And like you said, there’s still a long road, but we're on the right one. 

Vera: I think so. I think so.

Fred: Well, thank you so much for taking your time today to join us. Thank you for having me on.

Arthur: Yeah, thank you both for  having this conversation as I mentioned, a very important follow-up to our previous conversation to tie it all in together. So thank you both for your time for joining this episode.

Vera: Thank you, Arthur. 

Arthur: You’re welcome.

Arthur: Thank you for listening to this episode of the Inclusion Think Tank Podcast. This podcast is brought to you by New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education. Don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast on YouTube or Spotify and to follow us on social media @NJCIE, until next time. 

On this episode I welcome my guest Vera Piasecki. Vera and I discuss the academic and social benefits of inclusive education.

On this episode, I welcome back to the podcast, Priya Lalvani. We discuss ableism and the role that it plays in inclusive education. We also discuss a book she edited called Constructing the (M)other: Narratives of Disability, Motherhood, and the Politics of Normal.

Arthur: Welcome to the Inclusion Think Tank podcast presented by New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education, NJCIE. As the name suggests, this podcast will discuss inclusive education and, most importantly, why it works.

This episode is part 2 of my conversation with Priya Lalvani. Priya is a professor of disability studies and the coordinator of the inclusive education graduate programs at Montclair State University. We discuss ableism and the role that it plays in inclusive education. We also discuss a book she edited called Constructing the (M)other: Narratives of Disability, Motherhood, and the Politics of Normal. Let’s get into the conversation, Priya it is a pleasure to have you back on the podcast.

Priya: Thank you so much Arthur. I’m excited to be here. Thanks for inviting me.

Arthur: Yes, so our next part of the conversation, I would like to talk about your book, ‘What is Ableism’. In that book, you discuss ableism. Can you briefly define what that term is about wisdom for those who are unfamiliar with it?

Priya: Ableism refers to a persistent devaluing of individuals with disability or disability itself. It's a viewpoint- its viewpoints in which disability is understood as an inherently negative and undesirable way of being something to be avoided, something to be eliminated, something to be fixed, right?

I guess a simple way that I can explain it is, I guess it's analogous to the other -isms, like we understand racism, sexism, classism. So that's just one way to understand people is.

Same thing refers to disability. Similar to the other -isms, ableism is rooted in fear or prejudice. Right? But it unfolds as a system of systematic discrimination and oppression that operates at three levels like any -ism, at the individual level, at the cultural level, and most damaging at the institutional level. So, for example, it manifests as lack of access, negative attitudes, prejudice, stereotypes and fear and avoidance of people with disabilities or just fear what you don't know. But those are very broad, I guess.

It also operates in very subtle ways without our awareness, for example, in the context of schools, because we're having a conversation about schools, right, and inclusive education. Ableism operates as physical spaces, expectations, rules of conduct, everything being set up to the advantage of non-disabled people.

So when you think about it, we set up everything in advance in a way that works for some people, for non-disabled people, and we haven't really talked about that. Right. So ableism is a lack of consciousness of the fact that we created a world in the first place, which only worked for some people, and now we're having to accommodate the ones that it doesn't work for. But instead, we should be flipping that. OK.

Priya: And I said before that ableism is like the other -isms, but let me just point out that in some ways, in one way it's unlike the other -isms because this one is largely outside the public consciousness, because you even said, explain it for those who may not be familiar with the term, and I find that it's not a term that has entered the public consciousness. And in a way, ableism remains as some people in the disability rights movement call it, a permissible prejudice.

It's OK. Things that would not be OK for other marginalized groups remain OK because it's disability.

Arthur: I know in my personal life through being on social media, especially through the last almost two years living in the pandemic, ableism has been brought up through the disability community and a lot of people are posting more videos about it. But as you said, largely as a whole, I don't think it is something that most people are aware of, that the term exists and what it actually means. So I'm glad that you gave that explanation and definition of that, which leads into our next question, which you touched on a little bit about -ism and in schools, and disability in general in schools.

Arthur: Why do you feel like these topics of disability and ableism are not really discussed in schools and in the classroom?

Priya: I think that's a really great question, and that is something that I spend a lot of time not only thinking about but working toward changing, if you will.

So it's interesting that among the social justice education community, in the past couple of decades, there's been an increasing acknowledgment that there is a need for us to infuse an understanding about prejudice in schools.

It's pretty much recognized and acknowledged that there is a value to anti-bias curricula in schools, and many schools have adopted anti-bias curricula. It is required. So teaching children to recognize prejudice and bigotry and respond to it. Is very much happening in many schools, at least in social justice oriented schools.

However, as you said before, even within that context, disability tends to be left out. Ableism is not necessarily acknowledged or discussed. And in fact, it's interesting when you think about it, people with disabilities actually comprise the largest minority group in the United States.

It is a group that has a rich history. That history is not present in our history textbooks. It is omitted. It is left out. The vast majority of Americans will graduate high school without any awareness of the existence of the disability rights movement, of the existence of disability culture, or any awareness of any issues current related to disability or disability, oppression or ableism, right?

Priya: So why is that, is your question. There's a number of things for one, and I work with teachers daily, so this comes up a lot, right? And we talk about it and ways to ameliorate that.

But one reason is that many teachers feel fearful. Or ill-equipped. They just don't feel that they can talk about it or they feel that it's a hushed topic and they're not supposed to talk about it, right? Which I don't know why.

But complicating it further is this educational myth or rather myths, even beyond education, that young children are innocent and they don't notice differences? I don't know how many times I've heard this, and I talk about it in my book as well, that teachers will say to me whenever I've asked them, ‘Do you talk about disability in your classroom?’ and they say, ‘Oh, children are so innocent, children are so accepting. We don't need to talk about it because they didn't ask.’ So that's sort of a myth that children don't notice difference, and that can be likened to colorblind ideology.

This idea that ‘We don't notice race,’ which, many scholars have problematized colorblind ideology as rooted in racism. If you're saying you don't notice race, that's a problem, right? And so we need to be thinking about it that way with disability itself.

So as a result, there is a complete silence around the topic of disability and ableism in schools, and I don't think it's that children don't notice differences. I think it's wonderful to notice differences. And why shouldn't they?

Priya: It’s that children have internalized the stigmas around disability, and they have learned that certain kinds of differences, you don't mention, and that's a problem because it sort of perpetuates the stigma and the silence around disability in schools when coupled with the fact that children have few opportunities to interact with children with disabilities, because we have segregated school systems. So when you put those two together, you’ve got a perfect storm where it perpetuates stereotypes and prejudice, and ableism. We didn't talk about it, and we didn't give children an opportunity to be together and to get to know each other.

Arthur: I love that you said it's a myth about, you know, children not noticing differences because as a wheelchair user and a person who uses crutches, children definitely notice that I'm different when I see them in the store, my friends, their children, they know that I'm different.

And it's so interesting. I have a really good friend I've known since I was in college and her children have known me since they were born. And I have conversations with kids at their age level whenever they're ready to talk about my braces or my crutches or my wheelchair.

And I had told them, these are called crutches, I need them for this, and here's why I need them. Or maybe a couple of months later, I went back over, her daughter remembered that they were called crutches, but she says, ‘Why do you need them?’

I forget what she told me and I said, ‘Really?’ And she said, ‘Yeah,’ my friend goes, ‘No, she's joking with you, she understands. So she just wants to see what you say and see if you switch it up, and that's it.’ I said, ‘No, I still need them for the same reasons.’

And I have another friend, actually, it's the same family. The two moms are sisters where their children are used to seeing me use my crutches. So the one time I brought my wheelchair out of my one friend's daughter, she didn't come close to me. She would talk to me. She knew who I was, but it was different. It was different than what she, you know, OK, if it's like you told me about your crutches, but like, what is this chair? You're sitting in that stroller, like, what is this thing with wheels?

So I'm so glad that you brought that up. You know that it's a method that children don't notice differences because I believe they they truly do.

Priya: And they should. Why would they not, right? I mean, it is funny that you say that I've actually been to classrooms where you're right, that it's visible to people. Kids are sitting in wheelchairs. Another child is using a communication device. A third one is working with speech therapist. And the teacher is saying that the children have not noticed anything different.

Arthur: Right.

Priya: So they've probably noticed and the fact that they haven't asked questions because they've internalized that they shouldn't ask.

Arthur: Mm hmm.

Priya: And so they really can't be talking about inclusivity in schools when we are stigmatizing some children's identities and they pick up that there is a hierarchy here.

Arthur: And I think it happens again, when using the reference of being out in public for myself, where you have the parents that will tell the child to shush, don't look in that direction or, don't stare. And instead of having the conversation of, ‘That's a wheelchair. He needs it because his legs might be weak or for whatever reason.’

Or ‘Let's say hi to him. Let's say hi to the man.’ I've had parents that do that, let their child talk to me and the child is OK. But it's that stigma of we shouldn't talk about disability. I think it goes, like you said in the classroom, and it goes beyond the classroom walls as well because it happens out in the world, in general, in society.

Priya: Yeah. And that's really ableism, because what that tells us is that I'm not supposed to talk about it or mention it, it can't be a good thing, right?

Arthur: Yes. So that is a perfect tie-in to those two questions. Yeah.

So to wrap up this conversation, you wrote a book called Constructing the Mother Narratives of Disability, Motherhood and Politics of Normal, and I truly enjoyed this book.

I had a chance to read it a few months ago, and I really enjoyed so many different parts of the book. And in the book, you talk about disability as being another form of diversity, and you share stories about how disability was positioned in your home using the birth stories of your two children.

But that's not typically how disability is viewed in society. I know through recent years, diversity, equity, and inclusion have been discussed, and disability again is often left out of those conversations. So can you talk about that? Why do you feel that disability is not often seen as another form of diversity?

Priya: Sure. So, yeah, you're right. And thank you for your kind words about the book. But yeah, you're right. We in our family, we have always viewed disability as a form of diversity ever since my daughter was born. It was obvious, aligned with and we allowed ourselves to be informed by the disability rights community.

And it's interesting because our family already had a number of forms of diversity in it. Right. I'm an immigrant, a South Asian woman married to a Jewish man. We are an interracial, interfaith, and, international couple, and so when my daughter was born, we viewed it as yet another form of difference, value difference, and diversity in our family. That's how we decided to view it and welcome it as a form of difference. And we talked about it openly, always with our children and proudly.

It was never a harsh topic in our home, at the dinner table it was, you know, disability conversations about disability and disability rights or like, ‘Please pass the potatoes.’ But you know, you're also right to say that it's not typically viewed that way in our society.

I think, I don't see a reason to shy away from differences. I think the problem is that. We are so afraid to point out that we are different in some ways, right? Look, differences among humans have always existed.

Humans have so much in common, obviously, they have more in common than we are different by virtue of the fact that we are human. However, it is OK to acknowledge that there are differences among us in appearance and size, in our preferences and the ways in which we are wired and the ways in which we approach the world, and in our abilities and disabilities. So to me, disability is a natural and inevitable form of human variation. It's not the difference, per se, that’s the problem, it’s the way that we are responding to the differences. That's the problem.

So, in the context of schools, as you said, I think that there's an over-reliance on the rhetoric of, ‘Oh, you all the same. We are all special.’ You often hear that, right? ‘We're all the same.’

And I get that to be fair, I understand the need for that. We have historically, as a country, we've had a history of bigotry and prejudice and oppression. So I understand the need in schools to educate children that underneath it all, there are more similarities than differences.

I get that. But what we're doing is we're sweeping under the rug, that there are some differences among us. And the thing is that these differences are beautiful if they all make us unique. It's a good thing, right?

I think that differences can also lead to the development of a positive group identities sometimes. So I think that it's important to understand that in the context of inclusive education, like how does this title inclusive education, is that it's just not going to be enough to put a kid with a disability in a general education classroom.

Right? It's also not going to be enough if you create access to the curriculum and strategies and all of that because ultimately it's also going to be about the emotional and social well-being of all children. And if a child doesn't feel like they belong, because that is also a part of inclusivity.

And Gordon Allport did his classic studies on prejudice reduction some decades ago and demonstrated through his seminal studies that physical proximity is not going to be enough to overcome prejudice. It just isn’t. Prejudice towards any group.

Putting diverse kids together, in a space is never going to reduce prejudice. So it really means that we need to teach children all the children, right, how to communicate and interact with each other. What it means to be a community in which we are different in many ways, we are similar in many ways, but we better start thinking about how we can create inclusive communities of belonging.

Arthur: Wow. I go back to the ableism conversation that we had and just and relating that to the other isms and, like you said, just close proximity is not enough to make those things disappear. So it's just so important this conversation that we had that I thoroughly enjoyed. I enjoyed preparing this conversation with you and the conversations that we had offline. And I just truly, I thank you for your time today for recording this with me for the podcast.

And can you just share with us, before we wrap up, can you share with us where people can purchase your books?

Priya: They are both available on Amazon. So you should be able to get them there.

Arthur: So again, Priya, thank you for this great conversation. I really enjoyed it and I hope you have a great day.

Priya: Thank you. Thank you, Arthur. I really enjoyed talking to you, too.

Arthur: Yes. All right. You take care.

Priya: OK.

Arthur: We thank you for listening to this episode of the Inclusion Think Tank podcast. This podcast is brought to you by New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education. Be sure to subscribe on YouTube or Spotify. And don't forget to follow us on social media @NJCIE.

Until next time.