On the Gist, a supposedly benevolent association supports a malevolent force.

In the interview, we mark the beginning of the virtual 2020 Democratic National Convention with a slightly different format; no spiel and more conversation. Mike talks with Charlie Sykes, a republican who will be voting for Joe Biden in November. Author of "How the Right Lost Its Mind," host of the Bulwark Podcast, and an outspoken critic of the Trump administration, Sykes explains how the DNC will be unlike anything we have ever experienced in politics, dissects never-Trumpism, and shares his thoughts on why the GOP needs to reevaluate their base.

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Podcast production by Daniel Schroeder and Margaret Kelley.

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