The Living Church Podcast

This week, we collaborate with The Average Episcopalian podcast hosts Annie Hodges and Kate Greer to unpack what it means to be Anglican.

This is Part 2 of the conversation. You can find Part 1, “The Anglican Experiment: Listening,” at theaverageepiscopalian.com, Apple Podcasts, and Spotify.

In these two episodes (really, one long conversation), we talk about how to be attentive, to listen, to learn, to follow God’s voice from where you are, yet still to know yourself as part of the body that’s much bigger than you and may be there partly to make you uncomfortable.

How does this look from the perspective of history and wider Anglicanism? How does this look in the Episcopal Church? And how does this look for “the average Episcopalian”?

Again, catch Part 1 of today's conversation here.

Annie Hodges & Kate Greer are sisters and hosts of The Average Episcopalian podcast, where they attempt to tackle the mystery of faith with reason and humor through the lens of the church they love. Annie is a supply chain manager living in Dallas, Texas, where she puts both her hosting and engineering skills to work as a volunteer in her local Episcopal church. Kate is a paralegal based out of Berlin, Germany, where she sings in her local church choir at a historic Anglican parish.

For our bonus segment, Anglican ordinand Roberto Ábrego joins me from his home in Germany to share his thought-provoking essay, “The Freedom of Not Being Secure,” inspired by life in Mexico and the parable of the wealthy landowner in Luke.

Roberto Carlos Ábrego Manríquez is an ordinand in the Church of England's Diocese of Europe and is undertaking doctoral research at the University of Freiburg and Aix-Marseille University. He and his wife are involved with ministries for asylum seekers.

From the episode

theaverageepiscopalian.com

The Freedom of Not Being Secure by Roberto Carlos Ábrego Manríquez (TLC Covenant)

livingchurch.org/covenant

livingchurch.org

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What happened in the Chip Edgar misconduct case? And what does it reveal about the continued, if fractured, relationships between the Episcopal Church and the ACNA?

Today’s newsdesk begins with two bishops, ecclesial discipline, and the complex landscape that is Anglicanism in South Carolina.

From there, we explore what this brings to light about the ACNA’s ongoing relationship with the Episcopal Church; how the 39 Articles, Jerusalem Declaration, and Abuja Affirmation offer clarity and hopeful surprises; and remaining questions about Christian friendship, leadership, and engagement across divides.

In a state of division, even with a call to “principled disengagement” of Global Anglican Communion from Anglican Communion relationships, it turns out that the lines between divided denominations aren’t as clear as they seem, and that the principal founding documents of the ACNA and Global Anglican Communion are more generous and realistic about inter-Anglican relationships than you might expect.

Host Amber Noel is joined by the Rev. Dr. Matthew Olver (executive director and publisher) and the Rev. Mark Michael (editor) of the Living Church.

For our bonus segment, Episcopal priest Joe Shepley remembers the day in 2001 when his curacy at a New York Church led him to the rubble and smoke of Ground Zero. We walk the paths of forgiveness and healing that would impact his ministry over the next 25 years.

The Rev. Joseph Shepley is rector at St. Mary’s Episcopal Church in Stuart, Florida. He is in his 30th year of ordained ministry.

From the episode

ACNA Responds to Shared S.C. Chapel Blessing by Neva Rae Fox and Mark Michael (TLC News)

ACNA Charges Bishop Edgar with Misconduct by Arlie Coles (TLC News)

Abp. Julian Dobbs’s statement

A Church That Has Erred Is Still a Church by Matthew S.C. Olver (TLC Commentary)

Two Churches and One School — Christian Leadership Across Division by Brandt Montgomery (TLC Covenant)

What Bishops Edgar (ACNA) and Woodliff-Stanley (TEC) did was canonically valid and a good thing. by Jack Franicevich (Substack)

Scandal as a Concept in Anglican Canon Law by Samuel Bray

Questions for GAFCON (TLC Podcast)

Newsdesk on Global Anglican Communion (TLC Podcast)

Matt Kennedy’s podcast, Stand Firm

From the bonus

The Light of Christ at Ground Zero (2001) by Joseph Shepley (TLC Archives)

Healing Center of Martin County

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What is theology? And what is the Episcopal Church’s relationship to it? How does the Episcopal Church think and live theologically?

Several authors approach these questions in a book released earlier this year by Church Publishing: Wisdom, Knowledge, and Faith: New Essays on the Future of Theology and the Episcopal Church. We invited two of its contributors, Scott MacDougall and the Rev. Kelli Joyce, to share their thoughts.

It can be easy for Episcopal leaders, or the average Episcopalian, to feel like theology is a luxury, fussy, or something “other people” do who have the time or training to care.

Today we get a taste of how two of the top theological and pastoral thinkers in the Episcopal Church more broadly consider theology and its role in Episcopal life, from personal formation to polity and Church unity, and they’re helping other Episcopalians to understand how they're already "doing theology" together.

If you dig the conversation or want to learn more, Church publishing will give you 20% off Kelli and Scott’s book with code TURN20 at checkout at churchpublishing.org. Offer ends December 31. We’ll include a link in the show notes.

Along with Executive Director Matthew Olver, Scott and Kelli discuss:

• What is theology?
• What does it mean for Christian theology to be “recognizable” across the centuries? 
• How do Episcopalians understand themselves within the larger Christian tradition, even in theological tension and conflict?

The Rev. Kelli Joyce is a priest of the Diocese of Arizona, currently living and ministering in the Diocese of Tennessee. She is a candidate for the Ph.D. in Theological Studies at Vanderbilt University.

Scott MacDougall is director for theological resources for The Episcopal Church.

Kelli co-edited (with Rob McSwain) and Scott contributed to the book that inspired this conversation, Wisdom, Knowledge, and Faith: New Essays on the Future of Theology and the Episcopal Church.

In our bonus segment, how do you spot a deacon in a crowd? What if you’re called to be one? And what if you’ve got a deacon-in-formation on your hands?

The Rev. W. Keith McCoy joins TLC for a chat about the vocation of deacons, how it differs from lay and priestly ministry, and top tips for nurturing a deacon at your church.

Keith is a deacon from the Diocese of New Jersey, a semi-retired public library administrator, and a former archdeacon and chair of diaconal formation. He is currently president of the Fund for the Diaconate of The Episcopal Church.

From the episode:

Get 20% off Kelli and Scott’s book with code WISDOM20 at checkout at churchpublishing.org. Offer ends December 31, 2026.

Learn about the Fund for the Diaconate

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How do you lead a congregation or a community in the wake of natural disaster?

This question has always been relevant for church leaders to wrestle with, from theodicy and loss of life, to property damage and insurance claims. Climate change is making this question all the more common.

In Isaiah, God says to a people well-acquainted with disaster, “When you pass through the waters, I will be with you; When you walk through the fire, you will not be burned” (43:2).

Today we hear from three Episcopal leaders whose churches have recently passed through fire and flood. Where did they see, even in the moment, God’s hand at work? What did they learn from the experience? What wisdom would they share with other church leaders like you?

We’ll hear three stories today of Episcopal parishes and natural disaster, including:

• Practical tips for parishes, ex. how to communicate if cell service goes out, ways to build preparedness.
• How preaching and pastoral care are shaped, even years later.
• The strange gift of insufficiency as a priest.
• The surprises of God’s presence in chaos, relief efforts, and the long road of recovery.

Our guests include:

• The Rev. Kelsey Davis, Bishop’s Deputy for Disaster Response and Recovery in the Diocese of Western North Carolina and vicar at St. George’s Episcopal Church, Asheville
• The Rev. Bryan Owen, rector of St. Luke's Episcopal Church, Baton Rouge, Louisiana
• The Rev. Bert Baetz, rector of St. Peter's Episcopal Church, Kerrville, Texas

For our bonus chat, how do we experience God’s provision, not only in extraordinary events but in the day-to-day? Jerusalem Greer joins us to share about a book she reviewed for us, Food Theology: Nourishing Faith in Local Communities. We chat about the age-old Christian calling to share God’s love through food, and end with her best recipe for bread pudding.

Jerusalem is Co-Executive Director and Agrarian Minister at Procter Camp & Conference Center in the Diocese of Southern Ohio.

From this episode

Learn more about becoming a Living Church Partner

Episcopal Relief and Development

Donate to St. Luke's building fund

Donate to St. Peter's flood relief ministries

Donate to Western NC disaster resiliency

From the bonus

JerusalemGreer.com

Procter Center and farm (where Jerusalem works)

Jerusalem's savory bread pudding recipe 

From TLC magazine

Louisiana Parish to Rebuild After Devastating Fire

Hurricane Batters Churches Across the Southeast

Survivor's Gratitude

Anglican Priest and Funeral Director Reflects on Texas Flooding

Texas Hill Country Parish Offers Support for the Long Haul

The Gospel and Real Stomachs (Jerusalem's book review)

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Same Old Song podcast

Today we learn from a theologian and astrophysicist about how priests can navigate science and faith.

“Consider the stars,” God says to Abraham. The psalms and canticles, too, recommend we look up, beyond our own planet, to consider the grandeur and mystery of God’s handiwork.

You could also say, in a way, that’s what science does, whether it’s looking upward and outward or down and in.

Today we hear from a fellow stargazer and foremost leader in the area of Christianity and science, specializing in resourcing leaders for engagement in and conversations about the scientific topics of our day.

As we learn, you don’t have to be an expert to be an advocate for good scientific work, or to point out where God is at work, even in some of the most complex and controversial issues your parishioners are dealing with, like AI or life on other planets.

Our guest is the Rev. Dr. David Wilkinson. David is Principal of St Johns College and Professor in the Department of Theology and Religion at the University of Durham, England. His background is in theoretical astrophysics and systematic theology. David is also a Methodist minister, has been an ecumenical canon at Durham Cathedral, and is the Project Director at Equipping Christian Leadership in an Age of Science.

Today we’ll talk about:

• Surprising and fruitful intersections between ministry and science.
• How the average parish priest can enter difficult science-related conversations.
• Theological implications of space travel, living on other planets, and UFO/UAP phenomena.

In our bonus segment, we call up New Testament scholar Wesley Hill for a teaser of his talk at our Radiant Pages conference, all about the non-Pauline epistles and their place in Christian life.

The Rev. Dr. Wesley Hill is an author, speaker, and professor, and currently serves as Associate Professor of New Testament at Wycliffe College Toronto. He has several new books in the works, including a theological commentary on the Johannine Epistles.

From the episode

Equipping Christian Leadership in an Age of Science

Andrew Davison on UAPs/aliens

John Polkinghorne’s One World

NASA website

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What happened at the Anglican Consultative Council meeting in Belfast, and why does it matter?

In July, our editor, Mark Michael, returned from a gathering of Anglicans that happens every three years: a meeting of the Anglican Consultative Council (ACC). This year’s was June 27- July 5, in Belfast, Northern Ireland, and also marked the first 100 days or so of Archbishop Sarah Mullally’s ministry as Archbishop of Canterbury.

We pulled together a special episode of the newsdesk to talk about what Mark brought back from this international Communion reunion, who was there, what people were hoping for, and what came of it.

We’ll particularly discuss the reception and discussion of a document from the InterAnglican Standing Commission on Unity, Faith, and Order, known as the Nairobi-Cairo Proposals (NCPs).

Two principal proposals in the NCPs were hotly debated at the Anglican Consultative Council meeting: a proposal to limit the powers of the Archbishop of Canterbury and share them among other primates, and proposal to removing communion with the See of Canterbury as a primary marker of Anglican identity. 

Special thanks to Mark Michael, our editor, and the Matthew Olver, our executive director and publisher, who joined me at the newsdesk.

In our bonus segment, we go from the Communion gathering to vestry meeting. How do you nurture vestry members in their capacity as spiritual leaders? Retired Episcopal priest and retreat facilitator, the Rev. Dr. Marc Smith, has some tips.

From this episode

Podcast episodes:

Newsdesk on developments in Gafcon’s Global Anglican Communion

Questions for Gafcon (Winner of Episcopal Communicators Polly Bond Award)

Websites & documents:

The Nairobi-Cairo Proposals

Inter-Anglican Standing Commission on Unity, Faith and Order

Anglican Consultative Council Standing Committee Resolution

Statement from Global South Fellowship of Anglican Churches

Living Church articles:

Mullally Calls ACC to Deepened Hope and Trust

Anglicans Challenged to Plant 1 Million Churches

ACC Members Walk in Derry’s Paths of Peace

ACC Members Doubtful About Nairobi-Cairo Proposals

Mullally on Nairobi-Cairo Proposals: ‘We’re Not There Yet’

ACC Debates Nairobi-Cairo Proposals, Elects Leaders

Archbishop Mullally: The First 100 Days

From the bonus

Vestry Reflections: Cultivating Spiritual Growth in Church Leaders

Marc’s website

TLC’s review of Marc’s book

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Same Old Song podcast

What mysteries wink at us from the bright colors of stained glass?

“For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face” (1 Cor. 13:12). Here St. Paul is talking about how the spectrum of the full human being is revealed—will be revealed—in the light of the face of Christ. But in our modern world of clear mirrors, transparent windows, and electric lights, seeing through glass is not usually done very darkly. One place that St. Paul’s image still comes alive, however, is in the stained glass window.

Stained glass can be darkening and illuminating at the same time. And as we learn from our guest today, what stained glass doesn’t reveal of the outdoors, with unmediated sunlight, it makes up for by illuminating what's indoors. By dimming with color and pattern, it can actually bring the beauty of the church into better focus, both with literal light, and through the stories it tells.

Where does stained glass come from? And why did it become so important to Christians? What can we read in stained glass, what do we often miss? And how, if you’re a steward of stained glass windows yourself, can you take better care of them?

Our guest is Léonie Seliger, the stained glass artist responsible for the conservation of the stained glass windows of Canterbury Cathedral.

Léonie joins us to talk about:

• The origins and theology of stained glass. 
• The limits and complexities of the art, and how they open up creative possibility.
• What to pay attention to when taking care of stained glass in your church.
• A few inside stories about the stained glass in Canterbury Cathedral.

Léonie is Director of The Cathedral Studios of Canterbury, which makes, designs, and preserves stained glass for churches all over the world. She is a Freeman of the Worshipful Company of Glaziers and an ICON accredited conservator/restorer.

Today we scale the scaffolding for an up-close look at one of the oldest Christian art forms and what it reveals about Church history, human longings, and life in Christ.

From this episode

Thomas Becket miracle window project at Canterbury Cathedral

Canterbury Cathedral Studios website

All Saints parish in Tudeley, Marc Chagall windows

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Same Old Song podcast

In today’s newsdesk roundup, Editor Mark Michael, Executive Director Matthew Olver, and podcast host Amber Noel provide coverage and commentary for three top news stories affecting the Anglican world.

Story number one: Magnifica Humanitas. Pope Leo’s first and recent encyclical is a special, even unique, papal letter. And its topic, artificial intelligence, as well as its tone, are urgent. The letter asks not just “What is the church’s response?” but “What is our human choice?”

We also discuss a series of Anglican responses from our online blog, Covenant, especially touching on humans as sub-creators and Anglo-Catholic social movements.

In the next two stories: We look into ongoing coverage of jihadist persecution and interfaith resilience in the Diocese of Cabo Delgado, Mozambique. We also learn about the Anglican church in Myanmar, through their post-colonial witness to unity and the life of an Anglican seminary.

In our bonus segment, we chat with our freshly retired Associate Editor, Douglas LeBlanc, about highlights and challenges of his long career as a religious journalist, including some surprising wisdom for friendships across the aisle.

Douglas LeBlanc served as Associate Editor of The Living Church magazine. He's also written for Christianity Today, among many other publications, and served at St. Christopher Camp and Conference Center. He and his wife, Monica, live in Virginia with their cats, Mittens and Finn, and attend St. Matthew’s, Henrico.

From this episode

Magnifica Humanitas and Anglican response:

Encyclical Letter Magnifica Humanitas

"Outsourcing Our Humanity"

"Why Magnifica Humanitas Matters"

"An Anglican Reception of Magnifica Humanitas"

"Magnifica Humanitas and Anglican Christian Socialism"

Cabo Delgado: 

"Mozambican Christians Reject Religious War"

"Schism Threatened in Mozambican Church"

"Persecution Deepens in Cabo Delgado"

Myanmar: 

"Singing Praise in the Blackouts"

From the bonus

TLC honors Doug LeBlanc’s long career

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George Sumner’s book, In Season and Out

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What are the best depictions of clergy in film? Today we swap Top 5 Clergy in Film lists with a celebrated film critic. A recipe for edification and entertainment!

We all know of sloppy versions of the movie cleric—priests, monks, nuns, and pastors, either fanatical, evil, or milquetoast, lacking care or nuance on the part of those creating the role. But perhaps you’ve also seen thoughtful, even powerful, depictions of clergy that not only allow you to see a glimpse of yourself reflected sensitively onscreen, but even give you a glimpse of the kingdom.

Today we explore depictions of clergy in film with writer, film critic, and erstwhile Episcopalian Abby Olcese. She and host Amber Noel share their Top 5 depictions of clergy in film, spill some behind-the-scenes tea on The Mission and Wake Up Dead Man, and generally have a really good time. They also share what they think Christian leaders might glean from spending time with onscreen clerics.

SPOILER ALERT: Today’s conversation alludes to plot twists and endings, so if you’re averse to that, you have been warned!

Abby Olcese is a writer and film critic based in Kansas City. She is the author of Films for all Seasons: Experiencing the Church Year at the Movies, the film editor for The Pitch Magazine in Kansas City, and contributes to publications including Sojourners Magazine and Rogerebert.com.

In today’s bonus segment, we bring together some of the same themes of our film conversation—clergy, calling, suffering, and grace—by talking to one Pentecostal pastor about his own dark night of the soul and the dramatic and kooky interceptions of grace.

The Rev. Chuck Noel is teaching pastor at RiverLife Church of God in Bradenton, Florida, and has served in pastoral and diocesan ministry in the Church of God for almost 50 years. His current research is in Pentecostal sacramental theology. (And yes, he is Amber’s dad.)

From the episode

Abby’s book, Films for All Seasons

Amber’s review of First Reformed on Covenant

Abby’s Top 5:

5. Calvary

4. The Bishop’s Wife

3. First Reformed

2. Wake Up, Dead Man: A Knives Out Mystery

1. The Mission

Amber’s Top 5:

5. Into Temptation

4. The Apostle

3. The Sound of Music

2. First Reformed

1. Calvary

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The Episcopal Church is aging. Where are the young people? A campus minister gives his perspective.

The average age of an Episcopal parishioner is now mid-60s. Older parishioners are vital. But where are the young people? How do we reach them? And what, exactly, are they looking for when it comes to church?

Times are changing in terms of the race for cultural relevance, at least when it comes to ministry to young adults. Waning are the days when churches feel pressure to change style or personality in order to appeal to younger generations.

Because what has worked for centuries to form God’s people keeps on working—sacraments; sacred spaces, vestments and vessels; time-tested prayers; bread and wine, water, oil, and incense; loving community—and there is no sign at the portals saying, “you must be 21 or up to enter”

There’s also an element of blessed enchantment, or holy mystery, in these ancient Christian rites and practices, that’s maybe specially poignant for a disenchanted age.

Today we speak with someone today who doesn’t try to solve the puzzle of why more young people aren’t flocking to Episcopal Churches, but who wants to point out some important pieces from his own 30-year experience as a campus minister.

Today we talk about:

• His journey in ministry to young adults.
• Blind spots and opportunities for the Episcopal Church specifically.
• What he sees in the spiritual hunger of students.
• What he has learned from evangelicals along the way.
• How rootedness and tradition might give a real advantage when it is time for innovative mission.

Our guest today is the Rev. Allen Wakabayashi. Allen serves as the Chaplain for The Episcopal Church at Princeton and as the Province II Coordinator for Young Adult Campus Ministries. He has also been a campus minister with InterVarsity Christian Fellowship, and has pastored in a diversity of Episcopal, non-denominational, and evangelical church settings.

Today’s bonus segment takes us into our Books & Culture corner, where the Rev. David Beresford reviews the new film, A Great Awakening, about an unlikely friendship between Benjamin Franklin and itinerant preacher, George Whitefield. David is a retired priest who lives in Wilmington, Delaware.

From this episode

Books Allen mentions:

Leading Faithful Innovation: Following God into a Hopeful Future

Leadership in a Shrinking Church

David’s whole review of A Great Awakening

davidberesford.net

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