Governments and industry are jostling for position this week in the run up to a series of important decarbonisations meetings where shipping will be called to account, and likely a target. But amid the greenwashing and spin, companies are having to take real risks, incur some serious costs and make decisions based on very few certainties. Joining the podcast this week is Stena Chief executive Erik Hånell who talks us through the reality of what it takes to make a green stand and plan a pathway to 2050 without knowing enough about the detail of how to get there.