The Mission Driven Mom Podcast

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Want to get at the meat of what's wrong with the trans movement? In this episode Audrey outlines her 5 biggest takeaways from her extensive research into the trans movement and her study of the controversial book Irreversible Damage: The Transgender Craze Seducing Our Daughters by Abigail Shrier. 

If this craze has boggled, confused, or upset you, listen in for a synopsis of the biggest issues around this cultural trouble and how to look at it with more clarity. 

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PODCAST TRANSCRIPT (AI Generated)

 Years ago, at my organization The Mission Driven Mom, I was running a leadership retreat and decided to do a presentation on the sexual revolution in the United States.

I had already done quite a bit of research, but I dug even deeper before the retreat. When I presented all this information to the women there, I was honestly shocked — almost everything I shared was completely new to them. Some of the things they had never heard before, and most of it they knew little to nothing about.

That experience really opened my eyes to a serious problem in our culture. We live in what’s called the information age — which would make you think we all have access to high-quality knowledge about all sorts of topics. But that’s actually not the case. There’s a tremendous amount of misinformation out there, and it’s difficult to sift through the noise and find reliable sources.

Because of that, I’ve spent years reading some of the best books and research available on issues that are affecting our culture — topics that seem to have gone completely off the rails. The transgender movement is one of those.

So I picked up Abigail Shrier’s book Irreversible Damage: The Transgender Craze Seducing Our Daughters. I wanted to understand why there’s been such a sudden surge — this flood of young girls seeking testosterone, top surgery, and beyond. We know the numbers are climbing at a shocking rate.

Historically, we actually have very good data — at least a hundred years’ worth — on gender dysphoria. For most of that time, over 90% of those who experienced it were male. It usually appeared in early childhood, and in the vast majority of cases, the feelings resolved naturally by early adulthood. Of those who continued to experience it, many became homosexual men, and a small percentage transitioned — what used to be called “transsexuals.”

But even among that older generation, they never believed they could literally become the opposite sex. When you talk to trans individuals from those earlier decades, they often describe simply feeling more comfortable presenting as the opposite gender. Some had surgeries to help them do that, but they didn’t claim that changing clothes or undergoing surgery actually made them women.

So for a century, this pattern held steady — until around 2006. That’s when things began to flip. There are reasons for that, rooted in the broader history of sexual identity movements in the West, but 2006 marks a turning point. The number of girls identifying as the opposite gender — and seeking hormones or surgeries — began to rise dramatically.

By 2016, Shrier reports that natal females made up 46% of all gender reassignment surgeries in the United States. Just one year later, that number jumped to 70%, and it has continued to climb since then.

Now, one reason we struggle to understand what’s happening — even in the so-called information age — is that we don’t always do our homework. On this channel, I try to share tools and strategies for how to research well and think critically about the sources we use.

Another reason is that many people simply don’t know where to look or who to trust. Lots of experts have impressive credentials or bios, and it’s easy to assume that means they’re reliable. But in reality, good information is often hidden, misrepresented, or outright suppressed.

In Irreversible Damage, Abigail Shrier shares an interesting example. In November 2020, after the book had been selling well for about four months, a Twitter user posted this message:

“@AskTarget, why are you selling a book notorious for its harmful rhetoric against us? Historically, harmful products have been pulled from your shelves — and this should be too.”

And that was all it took. Based on the complaints of just two Twitter users, the book was pulled from Target.com. It was banned and protested in other places as well. There are also numerous YouTube videos denouncing it as “transphobic.”

So, I thought today we could spend a few minutes on this topic, and I’d share my five big takeaways from the book.

I’ve got to say right from the outset — I didn’t see a lot of transphobia in it. In fact, one thing that made reading it especially interesting was that I went through it with a book club. One of the women in our group identifies as quite a bit more liberal and left-leaning than the rest of us. She’s very supportive of LGBTQ+ causes, and she was nervous about reading the book. Her circles had warned her that it was going to be transphobic and problematic.

And yes — there are moments when Shrier uses a bit of tongue-in-cheek or sarcastic humor that can come across as a little distasteful. But beyond that, even this woman in our group ended up really enjoying the book. She saw the value in what Shrier was saying, and it led to some great conversations about what we can do — both individually and as a society — in response to this transgender craze.

Shrier makes a striking point in the book:

“A remarkable thing about the continuous campaign against Irreversible Damage is that it came amid additional confirmation that the book’s claims were true.”

And that’s exactly what we’ve seen. The book is only two or three years old, but time has already proven many of her concerns to be valid. We’re now seeing several countries passing legislation to restrict certain practices or to slow them down. And while the transgender movement is still growing — and the majority of mainstream voices continue to promote it — evidence keeps emerging that supports what Shrier argued.

Her main claim is this: the sudden rush of girls seeking hormones and transgender surgeries — what’s being called “rapid-onset gender dysphoria” — is not actually gender dysphoria in the traditional sense. It’s a craze, a social contagion, and rushing these girls into medical transition is not in their best interest.

So, in light of all that, my first big takeaway from the book is this:

👉 We can only fight with truth.

Right now, we simply don’t know the full truth about the transgender craze. We don’t have enough solid, unbiased information — and it would really benefit us to read books like this one.

I have a couple of other books on the topic sitting on my shelf, and I’ve watched dozens of detransition videos and interviews with experts in this field. And I’ve got to say — if you’re only paying attention to surface-level information, the kind that shows up in your social media feed or the headlines — you’ll end up being pro-trans in ways that are actually harmful to young people, especially those under 18.

So takeaway number one: we don’t yet have the whole truth, and we can only stand for what’s right if we’re willing to seek it.

As I was watching all of these detransition videos, I started noticing some common themes — and I want to talk about a couple of them.

One thing that really stood out to me was this: sometimes, it’s easier to change what’s on the outside than it is to change what’s on the inside.

And that’s not unique to the transgender movement — that’s something all of us struggle with in different ways. It’s part of being human. But in these stories — mostly girls transitioning to boys — this theme came up over and over again.

Now, Abigail Shrier highlights the same thing in her book, and it matched exactly what I was seeing in these videos. In almost every case, there were preexisting mental health conditions — depression, anxiety, self-harm — and often social struggles as well. Many of these girls were on the autism spectrum or had traits associated with it.

So these girls were already struggling. They already felt like outsiders. They already felt broken or “different.” Shrier gives a few statistics about the number who were cutting, the number who were clinically anxious — and the pattern was striking.

Here’s what parents consistently reported: their daughter had social struggles and anxiety but no signs of gender dysphoria in childhood. Then she enters high school, makes a group of new friends — and several of those friends come out as transgender. Soon after, she makes the same announcement. And from that point on, her mental health actually worsens.

In other cases, it wasn’t the school friends but the online communities influencing them. These girls felt so lonely in real life that they turned to the internet, where they were quickly immersed in circles that reinforced the idea that they must be trans.

There are even online quizzes or “tests” where they’re asked questions like, “Have you ever felt uncomfortable in your body?” or “Have you ever struggled to fit in?” And of course, those are universal experiences! Every one of us could say yes to those. But for socially awkward, already hurting girls looking for answers, this becomes a new label that feels like relief — a new identity that promises to fix what’s wrong inside.

And again, it’s easier to change the outside than the inside.

So my second big takeaway from Shrier’s book is this:
👉 Virtually all of these girls have preexisting mental health challenges and social struggles — and that makes it tempting to focus on outward change instead of inward healing.

And in their defense, many of them don’t even know what’s wrong or how to fix it. They just know they’re unhappy, and transitioning looks like a solution. Add to that the fact that there’s a huge amount of social validation that comes with coming out as transgender — especially online.

Yes, there’s still bullying in schools. But overall, many of these girls suddenly receive an outpouring of support, encouragement, and praise. They’re told they’re brave and courageous. That kind of affirmation is incredibly powerful for someone who already feels invisible or broken.

Now, as I mentioned, I’ve watched a lot of these detransition stories — and everything I saw was echoed in Shrier’s research. It was like reading a well-documented version of what I’d already found on my own.

One thing they all talk about is how easy it was to get the medical interventions.

In most cases, on their very first visit to Planned Parenthood, they were prescribed testosterone. One girl said she even asked for the maximum dose — and they gave it to her right away.

It’s not just Planned Parenthood. Many psychologists and psychiatrists now approve medical interventions after a single visit. Parents of younger children are often told that if they don’t affirm their child’s new identity, the child will commit suicide. Puberty blockers are offered extremely early in the process.

This whole mindset is called affirmative care — the idea that if someone says they are something, you simply affirm it as truth. But if you stop to think about that for even a minute, it doesn’t line up with how we treat any other medical or psychological condition.

In every other area, there’s testing, diagnosis, and careful consideration before prescribing serious medication or recommending surgery.

I remember watching a Jordan Peterson interview where they were analyzing the case of Chloe Cole — a detransitioned young woman I actually met a few weeks ago at the Capitol in Austin. Peterson said, from a professional standpoint, that before such a life-altering decision, a person should have at least a year of weekly or biweekly therapy sessions to truly unpack what’s going on.

Of course, that didn’t happen for Chloe — and it doesn’t happen for most of these girls.

In any other situation — whether we’re talking about cancer or bipolar disorder — we would never give medication or perform major interventions without solid evidence and diagnosis. Yet, in this space, we’re skipping all those steps and making irreversible changes based solely on self-identification.

And that’s deeply concerning.

Building on everything we’ve talked about, it actually gets even worse — because not only is the affirmative care model being used, but in most cases, there’s also no real informed consent happening.

So many parents have shared that they didn’t understand even the most basic facts — like what puberty blockers actually do. They were told these medications were “safe” or “reversible,” but no one explained that they stop normal puberty and physical maturity, and that this can lead to long-term psychological and physical consequences.

Many of these kids end up developing osteoporosis — that’s something most parents never hear about beforehand. They’re also rarely told that puberty blockers can cause permanent sterilization, or that cross-sex hormones can significantly increase the risk of heart disease, cancers, and other serious medical issues.

I’ve personally met several of these young people and watched dozens of their stories online. Almost all of them said they never truly understood what they were signing up for. No one explained what these treatments would mean for their fertility, their long-term health, or their ability to experience sexual function later in life.

So my third big takeaway from all this research — and from Abigail Shrier’s documentation — is this:
👉 Affirmative care doesn’t work, and there is essentially no informed consent happening in the transgender movement.

Now, another thing that really hit home for me while reading Irreversible Damage was just how lonely this generation of teens is.

Across the board, people are lonelier than ever before — but Shrier goes into great detail showing how isolated and sheltered today’s teens have become.

In the past, teens were often seen as reckless — they’d push boundaries, do things like drink, smoke, sneak out, or drive too fast. And while those behaviors aren’t healthy, they at least represented real-world experiences. Kids were learning through trial and error, interacting face-to-face, and navigating relationships.

Today’s teens are missing that. They’re living largely online. They’re anxious about in-person interaction, and many of them are struggling with depression and social anxiety. Instead of developing healthy romantic relationships, many are turning to pornography — which completely distorts their sense of intimacy.

And if that’s what intimacy looks like to them — something degrading or violent — then it’s understandable that they would say, “I don’t want any part of that.” So when someone tells them, “Transitioning might sterilize you,” they shrug it off. They don’t care, because their concept of real love and real connection has already been damaged.

In fact, some of these girls explicitly say that their desire to transition came after watching disturbing pornography that left them afraid of men and unwilling to ever be intimate with one.

Shrier cites some powerful statistics:

So nearly half of our 17-year-olds have never had a real-world romantic relationship. They feel anxious about human interaction, spend up to nine hours a day online, and experience the highest rates of depression, anxiety, suicidality, and loneliness we’ve ever seen.

Now, one thing I really appreciated about Shrier’s approach is that she’s not saying these girls aren’t in pain. She’s saying the opposite — that they’re in deep pain. She simply believes — and I agree — that transitioning isn’t the right answer to that pain.

Most of these girls will end up regretting these irreversible decisions because they never addressed the real source of their suffering.

So my fourth big takeaway is this:
👉 Teens today are lonelier than ever, and because they lack deep, real-world relationships, they’re unequipped to make major life decisions like transitioning.

They’re already too young to fully grasp the consequences — but their emotional and social isolation makes them even more vulnerable. This loneliness and lack of connection is a huge source of pain for these girls, and it’s one of the driving forces behind this movement.

Finally, my fifth and last takeaway has to do with how all of this is being promoted and reinforced by powerful institutions — the medical establishment, the psychological establishment, the government, and the schools.

Shrier gives several examples from each, and I have to admit, I had a sense this was happening — but I didn’t realize the extent of it.

We’ve already talked about how the medical community is allowing these interventions without informed consent, and how therapists are labeling kids as trans after just one or two sessions. That’s the psychological establishment’s role — cooperating with, and in some cases outright promoting, the rush to medicalization.

Then there’s the government, which is increasingly cutting parents out of the process altogether. In Canada — and now, increasingly in the U.S. — there have been cases where parents have lost custody, been fined, or even jailed for refusing to go along with their child’s transition.

And the manipulation starts early. Parents are often told things like, “Would you rather have a dead daughter or a living son?” — an emotionally manipulative statement that pushes them to comply. In some situations, they’re even legally forced to comply or threatened by professionals if they don’t.

And then there’s the school system — which I honestly didn’t realize was as involved as it is. I assumed this was mostly student-driven, maybe supported by a few activist teachers. But in many liberal states, it’s actually institutionally promoted — a very aggressive push.

Some universities now even include gender transition surgeries in their student health insurance, making it not only accessible but almost free. And, of course, there’s tremendous social and institutional support for those decisions at the college level.

All of this adds up to a perfect storm: emotional vulnerability, misinformation, social isolation, and institutional reinforcement.

Now, you’re an adult—you can make all your own decisions. But even in elementary schools, middle schools, and high schools, the schools are beginning to—especially in California and along the West Coast—put policies in place that intentionally create a break between the child and the parent.

In fact, the NEA has a policy stating that when a trans-identified student comes out at school, the parents don’t need to be informed—in fact, they usually should not be informed. There’s even a place where the child can check a box that says, “Do my parents know?” And if the parents don’t know, then the school’s policy is not to tell them.

So what happens is that schools create a separate set of documents with the child’s new name and gender on them, while holding onto the originals with the legal name. The parents only see the legal documents, so they have no idea their child is literally living a double life.

There are many stories about this happening—parents have come to the Capitol to testify about it. Schreyer gives several examples in her book, including interviews with parents who experienced this firsthand.

The NEA says, “Privacy and confidentiality are critically important for transgender students who do not have supportive families. In those situations, even inadvertent disclosures could put the student in a potentially dangerous situation at home. So it’s important to have a plan in place to help avoid any mistakes or slip-ups.”

It’s absolutely mind-blowing that these practices are becoming more and more commonplace.

So my last big takeaway is this:
👉 The profound loss of parental rights!

We are no longer seen as the ones ultimately responsible for our children. And I don’t mean “owning” them, but who does the child belong to? Is it the doctor’s child? The psychologist’s child? The school’s child? The government’s child?

It’s complicated, I get it—there are laws to protect children from abuse, and sometimes that gets gray and sticky. But this is different. These children are not capable of making such major life decisions, especially when parents genuinely believe it’s not right for them. Parents should have the right to stop that process.

Once a child turns 18 and is a legal adult, they can move forward however they choose. But parents shouldn’t have to go through the anguish and heartbreak of cooperating with something they know is deeply harmful for their child.

In one interview I watched, parents described the process as a kind of grief—they’re losing their child as that child transitions to another gender. And they’re often ostracized for it. Nobody’s on their side. Nobody sees their pain, because the focus is all about “celebrating” the child and condemning the parents if they hesitate or struggle emotionally.

I want to end with something C. Scott Miller said. He’s the Equality California liaison to the California Teachers Association—the one who gives recommendations and works on policy. Here’s what he said:

“Even parents that come in and say, ‘I don’t want my kid to be called that’—that’s nice. But their parental right ended when those kids were enrolled in public school.”

So parents, this is a call to you: rise up. Do whatever you can to educate yourselves. Read this book, read others, watch interviews, learn what laws are active in your state, and fight for your right to do what’s best for your child—whatever that looks like.

Because you are their parent, and you have the right to make those decisions. You shouldn’t be left in the dark while your children are working with Planned Parenthood, the government, or the schools without your knowledge.

Thank you for joining me for this overview of my five takeaways from Irreversible Damage. I’ll see you next time.

Get Your FREE Chapters in Audio format from The Mission Driven Life: Discover and Fulfill Your Unique Contribution to the World: https://www.themissiondrivenmom.com/

 “Your mission, should you choose to accept it…”

 These are words meant not just for Ethan Hunt but for YOU, right now! God divinely fashioned you to make a difference where you are. Your level of commitment to preparing for the calls God has for you will make all the difference for you, for your family, for your community, and beyond. 

 And all you have to do is say “YES!”

 Through the lens of the Mission Impossible movies, Audrey demonstrates just how mission driven living works. Then, taking those same ideas into the life of George Washington and her own personal experiences, she paints a picture of a beautiful life cadence from one call to the next—full of self-discovery, personal development, and blessings to those around us. 

 If you’re ready to say yes and begin the adventure of life mission in your own life, this podcast is for you!

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Transcript AI Generated:

 Hi, welcome back to the podcast. I’m Audrey Rindlisbacher, author of The Mission-Driven Life, founder of The Mission-Driven Mom, creator of the MDM Academy, and I’m your host today to talk about this series of questions we’re answering—what is a mission-driven life, what is mission-driven living, how does it work, and how can we be more mission-driven individuals?

I want to thank you for joining me today. If you’re brand new, you can head back to the beginning of the podcast and listen to some of those first episodes. They’ll give you some backstory. We talk in detail about the Seven Laws of Life Mission. You can listen to some mission-driven stories, and in the meantime, you can also keep up with our most recent podcasts.

You can expect a variety of different types of podcasts here. We tell mission-driven stories about great men and women—or sometimes men and women living today—who are living according to these Seven Laws of Life Mission. We also talk about what mission-driven living and a mission-driven life look like, which we’re going to dive into today.

We also talk to some of our students and graduates about the amazing things they’re doing in the world today in their mission-driven lives. And I also interview individuals—authors, influencers, and others—who have important things to teach us about how we can be more mission-driven in our own lives right now.

So thank you for joining me. It’s a joy to be here. If you haven’t headed over to themissiondrivenmom.com to get your free audiobook chapters, I encourage you to do that. We’re giving you part of The Mission-Driven Life book so that you can hear the backstory and framework of the Seven Laws and get acquainted with them easily.

While you’re there, if you want a hard copy, you can grab a copy of the book as well.

So thank you for being here today. We’re going to answer the question: How does mission-driven living work? And if you stay until the end, you’ll hear a little about my own path along this mission-driven life that I’m attempting to lead, and some of the stories of how I got started and what it’s looked like for me.

But I want to start out by giving you a frame of reference for mission-driven living that we’re all probably familiar with—and that is the Mission: Impossible movies. You guessed it—Ethan Hunt enters stage left.

In fact, I was reviewing one of the movies recently so I could say this more intelligently to you. It’s just so funny how he’s always on a plane or a mountain or something, and then something gets dropped and it says, “This is your mission, should you choose to accept it.” And it’s always insanely difficult and basically impossible.

But in the one I was watching recently, he’s talking to his superior and says, “Well, that sounds really hard.” And his superior replies, “This is Mission: Impossible. ‘Hard’ should be a walk in the park.”

So, we aren’t going to do Mission: Impossible when we try to live a mission-driven life, but sometimes it can feel like “Mission: Pretty Hard.”

You’ve probably seen one or more Mission: Impossible movies. You know who Ethan Hunt is—you have some context. So, keeping that in mind, let’s think about how those movies always start: he’s given the opportunity to choose to do something. There’s a need in the world. The world is calling to him: “Will you come and save us?” in some specific way.

The one I watched recently was Mission: Impossible 2. In that story, there’s a deadly virus that kills within two days, and a corrupt company has been building both the virus and its antidote so they can create the problem and then sell the solution. The scientist working on it tries to get to the United States—probably to work with the U.S. government—but he’s killed along the way.

So the call that Ethan Hunt gets is: “Will you save the world? Will you find where this virus is? We have an agent who’s gone rogue—he has both the virus and the antidote—and we need to stop him before he starts a global epidemic.”

Now, the calls that you and I get aren’t going to be to save the world in such a literal way. But I want to break down what goes on with Ethan so that you can better understand how this applies to us.

If you’ve read my book—or even just parts of it—you’ve seen how, in everyday ways, we can hear and answer calls all the time. There are also larger, encompassing elements. In my last video in this series, I shared an analogy about a king who sees all the needs of his kingdom, and when you make yourself available, he sends you where you’re needed.

Today, I want to talk more about the tactical side—what it actually looks like and how it really works.

In Ethan Hunt’s case, there have been years and years of preparation. These are what we call the foundational laws: loving God, loving yourself, loving truth, and loving humanity. We’ll return to those laws all our lives. We can always get better at loving ourselves, loving God, loving truth, and loving humanity.

But until our home is in good enough order—until we’re out of victimhood, our relationships are more stable, and we’re living some solid financial and personal principles—it’s very hard, when things are messy and out of control, to go out and serve others.

That’s why, when we see ourselves as children of God and treat ourselves as such, we can first be of service to ourselves and our homes. That’s where it starts. We work on ourselves and our homes first, and then we can begin serving in our community.

Now, Ethan Hunt probably doesn’t believe in God, and I don’t know if he’s lived all these laws, but he’s definitely prepared. And those foundational laws encourage us to prepare as well. There are two ways we prepare for the calls God has for us:

We’re intentional about our preparation. We gain knowledge and skills, we work on ourselves and our homes first, and we recognize that preparation leads to calls—and calls lead to more preparation. As we execute calls, we develop new skills and gain more experience, which makes us more capable of answering larger and larger calls.

We don’t know much about Ethan Hunt’s backstory—maybe there’s a book series somewhere—but what we do know is that he shows up with massive preparation, education, and skill. He’s done a lot to become the person capable of answering a call that big—one to save the world.

Here are some practical skills he’s clearly developed:
He’s proficient with guns, explosives, and other equipment—an expert-level operator. He knows which weapons to use and when. He’s also incredibly good at hand-to-hand combat, with strength, agility, and endurance at the top of his physical game. In Mission: Impossible 2, he’s even free-climbing a rock wall at the beginning!

There are always car chases, too—and he can manage all kinds of vehicles: cars, motorcycles, helicopters, and more. He can operate them under high-stress, high-stakes conditions with incredible precision.

He also works with a team. He handpicks his people, depends on them, trusts them implicitly, listens to their advice, and surrounds himself with those who can help him accomplish his mission. He’s an excellent team leader—he sees what needs to be done and coordinates everyone effectively.

He’s also an expert in secrecy, stealth, and spy work.

Now, of course, not everyone could reach his level of proficiency—and honestly, his abilities are “impossible” because it’s Hollywood—but there are real people, like Navy SEALs or special agents, who train and develop high levels of these same kinds of skills.

He also has access to a vast network of resources. The heads of his organization are plugged into the world’s top leaders and intelligence networks. In the story I watched, they’d discovered the virus threat and were coordinating with top agencies globally. They trust Ethan completely—he’s earned that trust—and they give him everything he needs to succeed.

They provide him with other agents—in that movie, a woman whose trust he had to earn because of her relationship with the villain, which allowed her to infiltrate. He can also choose the rest of his team, and they’re all experts in their respective fields. They back him up with tech, surveillance, and intelligence.

He has access to all the equipment he needs—explosives, technology, flights, secret identities, passports, travel arrangements—whatever it takes. They also cover his living expenses and provide financial resources and global connections.

If you listened to my last podcast, this probably sounds familiar—it’s the same analogy I used before.

And finally, his personal character: we admire Ethan Hunt because he puts his life on the line for the good of others. He usually has little to gain and a lot to lose when he accepts these missions. Sometimes it’s his wife’s life at stake; other times, it’s the whole world. It’s definitely over-the-top praise for him—but it’s also inspiring.

But the fundamental issue is, he doesn’t have to be this guy. He doesn’t have to risk his life—and he does. And we know that. Sometimes his life might be at risk, but sometimes not. Sometimes it wouldn’t affect him much not to do the mission, but he’s the type of person who has been willing to do all the work to get himself in this position where he can do this kind of work. And he’s always willing to risk himself for the greater good.

He keeps himself in top condition. He accepts the mission. He has a passion for the work. He has the natural talents and abilities—in addition to the preparation. Obviously, he had interests in that direction, and he was willing to do the work to be that kind of person. In many ways, he doesn’t always have the same moral compass that I would have in different aspects of his life.

But he definitely knows some key, fundamental aspects of right and wrong. He really respects life. He tries not to kill people, even if they’re very evil, unless he absolutely has to. And it’s those traits that he has that cause us to like him, trust him, want to follow him in his adventures, and to cheer him on when he’s trying to make the world a better place.

And of course, all of us can choose to be Ethan Hunt. We can choose to live a mission-driven life, where we hear calls and we answer them. So I’m going to give you the example of George Washington, and we’re going to walk through and talk about what mission-driven living looked like for him.

And then I’m going to tell you a little bit about me. He, of course, was born in 1732 in Virginia to a slaveholding family, and they were pretty well off. I don’t know all the details—I didn’t go research everything about why he didn’t inherit and how that all went down—but when he was eleven years old, his father died.

And when this happened, basically his formal education ended. If you’ve read much about Washington or from Washington, you know that he was very self-conscious about this. He was surrounded by men who had the most elite education available, probably in the world at that time, but definitely in the United States.

And he felt inferior to them because he tried to be a lifelong learner. He tried to always keep reading and educating himself, but he hadn’t learned all of the other languages, and he hadn’t read all of the great classics that they had. And so he felt a little bit inferior, and it was because his dad died and he didn’t get to finish that formal education where he would’ve received that tutoring.

So time goes by, and he’s working, he’s learning, he’s doing the stuff. And when he’s seventeen years old, he’s appointed to be a county surveyor for a frontier county called Culpeper. It’s really interesting because this is where his interests, his natural propensities—his strengths—really started to show. He was a very tall man, a very strong man. He was more inclined to tactical things rather than abstract ones.

Someone like Thomas Jefferson was interested in tinkering with things and inventing, but definitely way more of an intellectual. George Washington loved to be outdoors. He loved the rough and tumble. He loved to do things with his hands. So when he was seventeen years old, he accepted this post to be a surveyor, and he did really well at it.

He really, really liked it—and it was rough work. I mean, he was out living in the middle of nowhere on his own, living off the land, and trying to survey this county by himself. It taught him a lot of lessons.

And the question I’m going to ask as I go through this example, and my own, is—was this his mission? Was the call to be a surveyor? Well, yeah, he felt like it was the right thing to do. It matched his interests, and like I mentioned before, it developed certain traits, certain gifts, certain skills that he used later. The more he did this kind of thing, the better he got at it, and the more everything he learned could be of use.

It’s this cumulative effect in our lives when we say yes. And he keeps saying yes—to the next call, to the next opportunity. He faces his fears. He steps out courageously. He does something he’s never done before. Sometimes with minimal mentorship, sometimes with minimal financial aid—he just does it. He takes on the adventure. He says yes to the call again and again.

A couple of years later, his brother becomes ill. So they travel together to Barbados—it’s the only time Washington travels outside North America. While he’s in Barbados, he contracts smallpox. Again, this becomes an opportunity to go do something adventurous, to see the world, and it’s also a call to take care of his brother. He travels with him so he doesn’t have to travel alone.

And guess what happens? He gets really, really sick. But by virtue of the fact that he got sick, he was able to care for his soldiers and remain in the war later when smallpox broke out. So again, every time we take an opportunity to serve—he’s serving his brother, he’s developing his own skills—it comes back to bless him and many other people in the future.

A year or so later, Governor Dinwiddie, the governor of Virginia, sends him on a mission to the Ohio Valley to deliver a message to the French. And when he goes on this journey, he keeps a journal and writes down everything that happens. When he’s done, it’s a successful mission, but again, it’s fraught with danger.

He’s traveling through Native American territory to deliver a message to the French. It’s very dangerous—he could have lost his life—but it was important for Virginia that this happen. He had proven himself in the militia and through his work as a surveyor, so he was given this task. In fact, I think he may have even volunteered for it.

He was just in his early twenties. By virtue of the fact that he ran a successful mission and wrote down his journal, which he later handed to Governor Dinwiddie, this journal was printed—and you can still find it online. It made him a local celebrity and earned him a lot of respect.

A year later, he’s still a soldier—now a major—and he travels again to the Ohio Valley to fight for Virginia’s claim on some land. During that campaign, he has a combative confrontation with French soldiers. His men end up retreating and surrendering. It’s really embarrassing to Washington. But again, he’s on the front lines. He’s learning a lot from these experiences.

He’s so embarrassed by this that he resigns his commission. That failed campaign ends up sparking the French and Indian War. He could’ve just decided he’d had enough—that he was too embarrassed, that it was over—but he didn’t. He didn’t slink away. He kept saying yes when new opportunities came.

He recognized that he loved being in the military—that was where he performed best—and that he really wanted to be involved. He loved his country, the colony of Virginia, and he wanted to fight for and defend it.

The next year, he returns to the Ohio frontier as a volunteer for General Braddock. He exhibits great courage and leadership, and because of this, he’s recognized for his conduct in battle and given command of the entire military force of Virginia. Still a very young man, just in his mid-twenties, he’s already recognized as someone with great courage and valor in the face of death.

Of course, countless people in America—and around the world—owe the freedom they enjoy, at least in part, to this man.

A few years later, he marries Martha Custis, the widow of a wealthy man and mother of two young children. George and Martha couldn’t have children together—it was probably George’s infertility, since Martha had already had children. He loved his stepchildren as his own.

For the next sixteen years, they lived at Mount Vernon. He was a gentleman farmer, and he loved it. From the beginning, he was born into a slaveholding culture—he couldn’t change that—but he did try to live it differently. He was generous with his slaves. He kept families together and wouldn’t sell them off, even though it became a financial burden. He gave them opportunities to innovate on the property and lived in relative harmony with them.

Obviously, they were still enslaved, so I’m not trying to sugarcoat it—but within the time and place he lived, he elevated his circumstances. He lived a higher level of truth at a time when he didn’t have to. That tells us a lot about his character.

Then, of course, in 1775, he’s appointed Commander of the Continental Army. For eight years he risks his life over and over again, taking care of his soldiers who often had nothing. If you study that war, you’ll see the struggle and the heartache—how they went without supplies, how the states didn’t always send soldiers or money. It was awful.

And when the war was over, he resigned his commission and gave his power back to the people. He was declared a hero around the world because that kind of humility and integrity were rare.

Finally, I said yes. Okay, I’ll try it. You’re gonna get what you’re gonna get—I just made sure they understood this was going to be whatever it was going to be. I wasn’t making any promises. But they wanted me to come, so I did.

I found out that I’m a pretty okay speaker naturally. Then I got asked to be on a panel, and then to speak more at conferences. So for over twenty years, I’ve been public speaking simply because I said yes when people asked me. They saw something in me that I didn’t see in myself, and I responded to that feedback.

So this book club grows and grows. By the end of that year, I’m homeschooling, and I realize we don’t have the kinds of things I want—we don’t have a science fair, we don’t have group outings, we don’t have family events. I really wanted an annual Shakespeare dinner for couples where we could read Shakespeare together and enjoy a traditional dinner. I wanted a family ball.

And I knew other people wanted these things too. I saw a need, and I answered the call. I gathered a few friends, we met over the summer, brainstormed how we could do it together. We booked a free room at the library, sent out invitations to people we knew, and asked them to invite others.

They came, they paid a small annual fee, they volunteered in the community, and we connected online. It grew and grew until we had over a hundred families in this community. We had an annual ball every year. Later I moved, but it outlived me—it kept going.

And all I did was say yes—like George Washington, like Ethan Hunt. Every time I said yes, I learned, I grew, I developed. I found more gifts. I made mistakes and learned from them. And over time, I was able to have more and more influence—really until now.

Today, I’m on this podcast. I’ve had the privilege of talking to people like James Lindsay and Susie Mighell, who will be on soon, and others I’ve been reaching out to. I’ve been able to work with Richard Paul Evans, a number one New York Times bestselling author, who helped design my cover and endorsed my book.

I’ve had the privilege of amazing experiences—meeting heroes, taking pictures with them, and hoping to meet more. When I was bumping around that college campus years ago, I never imagined I’d be doing what I’m doing today.

I’m not famous. Most people don’t know who I am. I’m not Ethan Hunt or George Washington. But in my own small way, in the circles I move in, I’m trying to serve. I’m trying to see a need and answer a call—to give people something that I believe will bless their lives.

And in many cases, it’s blessed mine too. In every case, I bring my family with me. I’ve taught them the things I’ve learned, read books aloud to them, and built a family culture of great literature. They saw the book club in our home. They saw me taking risks and facing fears. They’ve come to hear me speak, and when I was on the radio or speaking at big public rallies, they could be proud of a mom using her gifts in the world.

I’ve had the privilege of serving over six hundred women in the academy and watching their lives change through the curriculum I’ve built—which happens to be one of my gifts.

And you can do these same things. You are so much more gifted than you think you are. You can truly live a mission-driven life—where, over time, as you see a need and say yes, as you grow in your love of God, you love yourself better. You take the actions of love for yourself—self-care, self-leadership, self-discovery.

Then you love truth. You build a principle-centered life and a principle-centered home and family. Then you go out and learn about the people in your community. You understand the bridges you can build through shared principles. Then you see needs and start to answer them—as many of our graduates are doing right now.

And as you listen to their stories on this podcast, I hope they’ll inspire you too. This is you. This can be you. You are amazing. All you have to do is say yes.

Just say yes right now. Offer yourself to God. Tell Him that you’re willing to learn and grow—to face fears, to take personal inventory, to strive to overcome, and to grow as an individual. He will show you the first step.

If my book can help, I’m grateful. If our academy can help, I’m grateful. But most of all, what I really want you to know is that you are divinely fashioned—that you are irreplaceable, that your worth is infinite, and that you can make a difference right now, where you are. You’re already leading. People are already following you. They’re watching you level up, improve your game, improve your skills.

Go practice more. Be willing to fail faster. Be willing to take risks. Be willing to face your fears. You will be shocked at the person you become, the opportunities that open up to you, and the positive influence you get to have—right where you are, in your own world.

So please, become that servant leader God means for you to be—because the world misses out if you don’t become who you could be.

Thank you so much for joining me today. If this podcast has been a help or inspiration to you, please pass it along and leave us a review. Thank you for joining me, and I’ll see you next time.

Get Your FREE Chapters in Audio format from The Mission Driven Life: Discover and Fulfill Your Unique Contribution to the World: https://www.themissiondrivenmom.com/

This week we get to hear about the spiritual strength and resilience of Catherine Marshall. As a young girl, Catherine had three dreams:

Through her diligence in the 7 Laws of Life Mission, she was able to accomplish all three in amazing ways! As graduate of Agnes Scott College, married to the most famous pastor in America and eventually a New York Times bestselling author, Catherine set her course and never relented.

 But it was her relationship with God that made it all possible. And her incredible willingness to be honest with herself and course correct when she knew she wasn’t living as she should, was the real magic of her life.

 In this podcast, you’ll hear beautiful stories of personal triumph that have inspired Audrey and many others to put God first, love themselves, and strive to fulfill God’s missions for them. It will motivate you to step into your callings and fulfill them with integrity!

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Transcript AI Generated:

Welcome back to the podcast. I'm Audrey Rindlisbacher, founder of The Mission-Driven Mom and author of The Mission-Driven Life. On this podcast, we talk about all thing’s life mission. We interview great men and women who are living mission-driven lives or have important concepts and principles to share with us.

We talk about what mission-driven living looks like and how moms can be more mission-centered. We focus on natural law and true principles—how we can build principle-centered homes and lives, how we can take care of ourselves, discover who we are, and lead ourselves and others. All those great concepts and more you will find on this podcast.

I'm super excited today to be sharing with you a mission-driven story about Catherine Marshall. This is where we highlight someone in history who really well exemplifies the seven laws of life mission as they lived them. They’ve left a very positive imprint on the world through aligning themselves with these seven laws of life mission and their accompanying principles.

So I'm really excited to share some of Catherine Marshall’s greatest insights—some of her greatest battles and victories—as a woman of faith and a truly mission-driven mom.

Before we do that, if you're new to this podcast, continue listening to these new episodes, but you might want to consider going back to the beginning and listening to some of those initial podcasts where I introduce myself and my history, explain how we got to be doing what we’re doing, and walk you through those seven laws in more detail.

Those podcasts are a great companion to The Mission-Driven Life book, and you’ll hear lots of other mission-driven stories besides Catherine Marshall’s. You’ll get a lot of really nourishing content that I hope will inspire and uplift you and help you on your life’s path.

Oh, one last thing—if you have not gone and gotten your free chapters of The Mission-Driven Life, head over to themissiondrivenmom.com right now and make sure to grab those audio chapters of the book. You can listen to them, get an overview, and gain an understanding of what we’re doing here. And then, if you want to grab a hard copy of the book, it’s available there as well.

I also want to mention that I’m continuing to work on my new book, How Truth Makes Us Free, and hope to do that launch in the spring of 2026. I’m working on chapter seven of about ten or eleven chapters, and then I’ll send it over to the editor. We’ll start looking at book covers and all that good stuff.

So I’m getting excited—it’s getting real! You can look forward to that book coming out. Hopefully, it’ll be something to help you as well.

So let’s dive into Catherine Marshall. She is quite an amazing woman. She was born in the early 1900s—1914—in Greenville, Tennessee. She moved several different places during her life, and she had a Presbyterian minister for a father.

She never had much money; they struggled pretty much all her life. But she has some beautiful tributes to her mother especially, who did some pretty amazing things. She says that her mother, Leonora, was born in 1891 and raised in North Carolina, and when she was 18, she volunteered to be a teacher for Dr. Edward O. Garren’s mission, which was located in the Great Smoky Mountains of East Tennessee.

That story, which I’ll mention in a little bit, was one Catherine heard about all through her childhood. She was really fascinated by this story, and eventually, one of her great dreams—she had three great dreams in her life—was to become a successful author. Well, she did do that, and Christy, I think, is the pinnacle of all her writing. It’s my very favorite book—one of my favorite books in the world—but definitely my favorite book by Catherine Marshall. It is the story of her mother and the work that she did among the Appalachian people in the Great Smoky Mountains.

She met her husband there, actually, when she was doing this service work. Her mother was very mission-driven—her parents very mission-driven—and so that was modeled for her. When Catherine was a young girl, about nine or ten years old, she gave her life to Jesus, and after that, she tried to be a good Christian girl, following the example of her mother.

She said she never thought of them as poor because her mother’s philosophy was to find good in every circumstance and to always emulate a very consistent, positive attitude. In the Academy, we call this optimistic realism, and her mother really portrayed that. She said her mother’s real secret was an utter, confident inner attitude. Always before her was the picture of a healthy, fulfilled family.

Catherine said of her mother: “No matter how little you have, you can always give some of it away. And when you do that, you can’t feel sorry for yourself, and you can scarcely consider yourself poor.”

That was one of many lessons I learned in studying the life of Catherine Marshall. It really made even more sense to me about the principle of the tithe and philanthropy. To be generous not only helps others—I always knew it helped the person we give to—but it also helps us in ways I had never thought about. It helps us feel more affluent, to feel like we have enough for ourselves and to share. It helps us stay out of self-pity and have an attitude of gratitude because we do have enough and can share. It’s a constant reminder of those who have less than us.

This is a really beautiful principle that her mother taught her. She also volunteered in the community. They moved to this place called Radical Hill, and she wanted to change the name of the vicinity from Radical Hill to Potomac Heights. She and her volunteers refurbished an old abandoned hotel and made it a meeting place for all kinds of activities, including a Bible study and childcare classes given by herself.

This was what she was giving to the community around her. Like I talk about in the book—and we talk about in the Academy a lot—this mindset begins when we first learn to love ourselves better and to love God better. Her mother Leonora, renamed Christy in the novel, really did this. She understood what her gifts were. She volunteered for service work at a young age. She learned a lot about herself during that mission work she did as a young woman, and eventually, she learned to love humanity.

She put her life on a foundation of true principles by loving truth—that’s Law Four—and then she learned to love humanity and became a servant leader. When she was 19 and volunteered to go up into the mountains to teach the backwoods people, she learned how to give herself to God.

If you read the book Christy (which I highly recommend—and we do in the Academy), you see her personal growth. You see how she gives herself to God, learns to understand what faith is, and learns to take care of herself properly, etc.

By the time she’s a mother of growing children, she not only has a home centered on principles and faith; she also knows how to give in meaningful ways to the community. She sees the problems around her and, like I say in the book, she offers principled solutions to real-world problems.

These were real-world problems—probably you and I would both rather live in a place called Potomac Heights than Radical Hill! She built this community center, and it became a hub. Eventually, the welfare board that had been helping her run this work had to tell her there weren’t enough funds to even pay her. She didn’t mind—she continued doing it for free. And through Leonora’s inspiration, the work continued and the community was renewed.

So beautiful.

By the time Catherine Marshall was 12, 13, 14, she had a pretty clear vision of her future—of the kind of woman she wanted to become and what she wanted her life to look like.

Her first and most cherished goal, like I said before, was to become an author. She wasn’t sure what she was going to write, but she knew she loved to write, and that felt like the right calling or vocation for her. She also really wanted to attend Agnes Scott College.

I relate to her for a lot of reasons, but also because I’m right in the throes of having children who are applying to college. Two of my youngest knew the colleges they wanted to attend, and it was just in their hearts so strongly. Neither of them has been accepted to those schools yet, but I know it’s possible for them if they still cherish that dream—just like Catherine did.

I’m going to tell you a story in a minute about how that happened for her. She genuinely wanted to attend Agnes Scott College. For whatever reason, that was just on her heart and really important to her. She also wanted to marry a wonderful man and have a family.

She had cherished these dreams, gone through high school, and done the work to get herself accepted to Agnes Scott College. But it was expensive—more expensive than her family could afford. As college drew close, she became more and more discouraged that she wouldn’t have the money to pay for it.

Of course, this was a time in history when there weren’t government grants being handed out. If you wanted a college education, you had to come up with the money. And I do think that helped build character for many people who were required to do that.

But she was hundreds of dollars short. One night, her mother came to her room and found her weeping because she was so discouraged that this dream was never going to come true—that she would never be able to attend this college.

Her mother said to her: “Catherine, I know it’s right for you to go to college. Every problem has a solution. Let’s ask God to tell us how to bring this dream to reality.”

What took place next was truly life-changing for Catherine.

Right then and there, her mother encouraged them both to kneel and pray. I don’t know if they said vocal prayers together first, but as the clock ticked, they remained on their knees, eventually saying individual quiet prayers. One of the ways Catherine described it was that her mother was admitting her to the “inner sanctum of her prayer closet.”

So they’re there praying, and Catherine’s really trying to have a spiritual experience and connect with God.

This is from her journal:

“As I prayed, as time went on, as we continued to pray for I don’t know how long, finally the truth struck me. For most of my life, I had been selfish. I had been working toward selfish purposes. I had given so little of myself to God. I had not really taken much part in Mother’s work to transform Radical Hill to Potomac Heights. With a sinking heart, I remembered all the times I had seen members of the church coming up the front walk, and I would flee up the back stairs to my room where I could be alone to read and not have to give myself to others in the sharing of their problems. Scene after scene flashed across my mind’s eye—the times I had resented my brother and sister, the many occasions when my parents had gone without something they needed so we children could have new clothing, piano lessons, books, or sports equipment. I felt more unworthy than ever, and my going to college would call for yet more sacrifices from my parents. I stole a look at my mother. She was praying intensely, but soundlessly, with her lips moving. Then, closing my eyes, I silently prayed the most honest prayer of my life to that point. “Lord, I have been selfish. I have taken everything from You, from Your Church, and from my parents—and given little of myself in return. Forgive me for this, Lord. Perhaps I don’t deserve to go to a college like Agnes Scott.”  A deep sob in my throat made me pause. I knew what I had to do.”

She goes on:

“And Lord, I turn this dream over to You. I give it up. It’s in Your hands. You decide.”

And something really beautiful happened after that, she said.

“I was learning the price of a relationship with God—and it’s dropping all of our masks and pretense. We must come to Him with stark honesty, as we are—or not at all. My honesty brought me relief. It washed away the guilt. It strengthened my faith.”

And I have to say, from a personal standpoint, I have had this experience many times—even recently—when I’ve wanted certain problems or personal issues I was experiencing to go away. When I wanted to feel differently about myself or other people, I’ve had to go through my own self-evaluation.

I’ve had to look honestly at what’s really driving me and to truly repent—to tell God I’m sorry—because so much of it is wrapped up in my ego and how I want to present myself to the world. My self-image, what people say and think about me—I want to be able to control that. And really, that’s not handing it over to Him.

Remembering and recognizing that nobody else’s perceptions matter besides the Lord’s—and that I’ve got to put my ego aside if I really want to be close to Him, if I really want the peace I’m seeking, if I truly want to engage in my relationships in healthier, better ways—it can’t be about any of that.

So I really, really related here. And there are a couple of other stories I’m going to tell you today where I deeply related to what Catherine was going through. I could see in my own life how necessary it was for me to again hand it over—to live that principle of willingness that I talk about in my book and in the Academy.

We have to hand it over to God and stop trying to control everything else. We can only control ourselves—and that’s it. When we really accept that truth and get serious about finding the tools, principles, and skills to manage and lead ourselves better, we find that everything goes better in our lives.

Living these principles is so beautiful—and of course, she had a beautiful result from this story.

Not long after this, their petition was answered. Leonora received a letter from the federal government offering her a salary to write the history of the county. The money was more than enough to pay Catherine’s tuition.

Catherine stood in awe of the God of her mother—the God who forgave her selfish attitude and graciously supplied what she needed to attend college.

So this was really her first major spiritual experience—where she saw the kinds of things God could do for her personally. It awakened her to how important her relationship with God was, how she could nurture it, and what it was going to require of her.

Throughout her life, she was always trying to dig deeper into this relationship—and it’s amazing. I’m not going to tell you all the stories, but I’m going to recommend a couple of books you can read if you want to know more about her.

What we find with Catherine Marshall—as with so many other mission-driven individuals—is that she’s backed up against a wall and realizes that she has more personal power than she thinks she does. And much of that power lies in giving herself up to God—giving herself up to principles and truths she’s been ignoring or denying.

I’ll tell you one of those stories in just a minute. But first, to fill in the blanks of her story: she went off to college, and not far from there was a man named Peter Marshall, who was the pastor of a church. He was from Scotland—I talked about this a little bit in a previous podcast—and he was incredible.

If you haven’t watched A Man Called Peter or read the book, it’s very worth your time. The movie is especially good—it covers this entire period of Catherine’s life. I’m going to touch briefly on what happens during her marriage to Peter Marshall, but you can have a beautiful experience watching that film and learning more about their story.

You’ll learn about his life, how he got to that point, and you’ll see their courtship and marriage. I’m going to spend more time on what happened before and after that time period so you can go watch the movie for their shared experiences.

Basically, he was the pastor, and she felt drawn to him. He was about ten or twelve years older than her. By the time she was a sophomore or junior, she was attending his church pretty regularly. She was noticing him; he was noticing her—but he was incredibly busy as a pastor, traveling and speaking, and having a lot of success.

He had been an immigrant from Scotland, like I said, and was called to the ministry. He’d even had his life miraculously saved—really incredible experiences. He kind of dated her a little bit, but then she wouldn’t hear from him for long periods, so she thought he wasn’t interested. She’d try to get over him and be mad at him, but eventually they connected, and after she graduated from college, they were married.

They had a very united, beautiful relationship. He was very good to her, and she was very good to him. He took her feelings and thoughts into account all the time. Even though she was younger, he respected her wishes and involved her in decisions. They felt very unified.

They were only able to have one child together—a son, named for his father. There was a really incredible experience that Catherine had after Peter Jr. was two or three years old. She became very ill with tuberculosis and languished for two or three years.

She tried everything. She had an incredible spiritual journey—confined to bed most of that time and not getting better. She went through these spiritual steps of drawing closer to God, really getting herself to that point—and this happens so often—where she was willing to let God’s will be done.

There were multiple times in her life when that theme rang so loudly. If you want to understand that principle better, again, read some of these books, listen to the mission-driven stories I share here, learn about it in my book—and if you really want to dive deep, you can join us in the Academy.

But she goes through this whole experience—beautifully portrayed in the movie—where she eventually gives it to God and says, “I will be an invalid all my life if that’s Your will.” And it’s at that point she turns a corner. She begins to heal, and within six months, she’s up and about.

It’s really a beautiful story.

A couple of years after that—maybe just two or three years later—Peter, her husband, began having heart issues. He eventually had a heart attack. Though he recovered and seemed to be doing better, he died quite suddenly in his mid-forties.

When Peter died, she was just 34 years old. She was a young widow, a single mother. She kept a lot of journals, so we have many of her words. She also spoke and wrote quite a bit.

In one of her writings, she talked about the divine comfort she was given after Peter’s death:

“Peter Marshall’s death from a heart attack at 46 was a devastating blow. ‘Why?’ I asked the Lord. ‘Why take a man who loves You so much, who is in the prime of his life, whose impact on people for You is so great?’ In the midst of grief, I had a million whys. One of them was answered. Instead, into my anguished emotions there crept one morning a strange, all-pervading peace. Through and around me flowed love as I had never before experienced it. It was as if Someone who loved me very much were wrapping me round and round with His infinite care and protection. I knelt there, marveling at what was happening. I had done nothing, said nothing to bring it about. I understood no more than before the reason for my young husband’s death. I only knew that, in some transcendent way, it was deeply and eternally all right.”

She had this beautiful experience after he died, which gave her great peace. But then she was left to raise their son on her own.

She began to struggle financially, and she began sharing more about Peter’s life. That eventually led to her writing A Man Called Peter. The book became an instant success—it was a New York Times bestseller—and was quickly made into the 1955 movie I mentioned earlier (which you can still stream online).

That brought in revenue and peace of mind. It was beautiful that she was finally doing the writing she had always wanted to do and finding success at it. That brought both financial stability and personal fulfillment.

She began having daily devotionals with God and spending quiet time with Him. During this period, Peter Jr. was really struggling. As a teenager and young adult, he became quite rebellious.

At 14, he started smoking. He was reading and watching bad things, getting into trouble with the law with his friends, and living a reckless college life. Having grown up with such a spiritually strong father, he didn’t deal well with the loss, and Catherine struggled to connect with him.

These were difficult years. During her daily devotionals, the Lord would counsel her—sometimes giving her very practical advice. She wrote in her journal that God said things like:

“Don’t be afraid for young Peter. No harm will come to him. You still have not completely released Peter to Me. Fear usually comes from guilt.”

And then more practical guidance, like:

“Here’s what to do with TV and movies. Here’s how to teach tidiness, responsibility for his own clothes, money and allowances.”

She felt God helping her. She was striving to live by principles—to establish her home and life on truth. She kept returning to those foundational laws so she could live the leadership laws better.

Here she was—called to be a single mom, called to be an author—trying to love herself, her son, and humanity. She was struggling, but she kept trying to learn how.

One of the things that crept in during these years was loneliness. That loneliness led to self-pity, and that self-pity led to a negative outlook on life. When she looked out at the world, she saw the bad.

For a long time, she didn’t even want to date again because she felt it would be a betrayal to Peter. Eventually, she felt more peace about it and began to date. She fell in love with a man named Howard, but he wasn’t a spiritual person at all—and that became a big barrier in their relationship.

Eventually, she had an experience where she came to see what she was doing wrong.

This was something that she wrote in her journal:

“I had a revelation today that there has to be someone else for me into whose life I can pour everything—since this is what my whole being cries out for. It is sure, as sure as the fulfillment of the tides of the ocean, that love will come again somewhere.

There is a man whose life needs this lavish giving, whose personality and career will bloom and blossom under it.”

So she realized she wanted to give herself to someone else. And one of the lessons she learned during this whole period of life—where she was single for a dozen or more years—was that God helps to sculpt and change us through family life.

It is one of the greatest schools of our time on Earth, and it’s through these family relationships that He helps us become who we can become. But she didn’t have someone to give herself to, and by the time Peter went off to school, she was even more lonely.

She was trying to figure out how to find someone, but when things didn’t work out with Howard, she became even lonelier and more discouraged. Eventually, she had an experience that helped her understand what she had been doing wrong.

She wrote this in her journal:

“For this past year, I have felt defeated and frustrated—and this certainly is not as God wishes it. Here are some of the ways I have allowed my loneliness to defeat me.”

She talked about how the savor had gone out of her life. “This is wrong,” she said. “The zest has gone out of everything.”

She just felt down and depressed, negative about most aspects of her life. She wrote:

“There has been a growing coldness in my heart toward other people. Visiting the sick has been a chore. There hasn’t been any joy in it. There’s been an increasing preoccupation with self.”

She sought more satisfaction in material things than spiritual things. She had been more irritable about the daily grind of life.

She wrote:

“I’ve known that God wanted me to wake up earlier and spend an hour with Him, but I haven’t been consistent in doing it.”

She hadn’t been engaged in self-mastery as she once had been. She had been giving in to little passions that were leading to bigger ones.

So this self-evaluation—like I mentioned earlier—was again really replenishing. And it actually is. I know I bring up Alcoholics Anonymous a lot, but it’s such a beautiful example of the spiritual journey we all have to be on.

For those alcoholics, it’s the daily inventory—staying out of self-pity, forgiving instead of resenting. And it’s recognizing that while self-evaluation might seem painful or difficult, it’s actually freeing.

As moms, we sometimes think that if we’re really honest with ourselves, we’ll feel even more depleted and worse than before. But actually, it’s so liberating—if we do it honestly, not in a self-pitying way like, “Oh, I’m so subhuman, I could never be different; life is awful; I can’t change.”

Rather, in a spirit of curiosity: What have I been doing that’s actually holding me back? What are my perceptions, my attitudes, my habits that are keeping me stuck?

And how can I gain new skills and tools for being different?

This is what Catherine beautifully demonstrates—over and over again—and it’s so renewing, so empowering.

This is why we’ve built the Academy the way we have. Because some of the hardest work we have to do is this work of self-leadership.

We need to engage in self-care—really taking care of ourselves by meeting our real needs, as I talk about in the book and in the Academy. Then we engage in self-leadership—this kind of self-evaluation, this personal inventory we take on an ongoing basis.

And then we move into self-discovery—that beautiful reminder that we are divinely fashioned, uniquely made, bringing unique gifts and talents into the world that we must develop and use.

Cycling through those stages in the Academy is very nourishing.

So I encourage you: follow up this personal inventory and the peace that comes from God by recognizing your gifts—and then go out and develop and use those gifts for good.

That’s how this beautiful rhythm works.

One more story I want to share with you before we finish up.

After all of this happened—and after she was honest about what loneliness was doing to her—she had already recognized her deep desire to pour her life into someone.

There was a man named Len, whose wife was an alcoholic who never recovered. They tried everything, stayed together for a long time, but eventually she had to be institutionalized.

When that happened, he wanted to move forward in his life. While he and his children still maintained some contact with her, he was left to raise three children alone.

He knew of Catherine Marshall because he worked in the publishing industry and she was a well-known author. They had met once and interacted a little.

At one point, after rebelling against God for a time—living carelessly for months or maybe a year, which was very detrimental to his family—Len finally came to himself. He realized, This isn’t who I want to be.

He went to God and said, “Okay, I want to do this, but I need help.” And Catherine Marshall’s name came to his mind in prayer.

He sought opportunities to see her. They didn’t live near each other, but he found excuses to travel where she was and spend time with her. Eventually, it became clear that he was trying to court her.

They did fall in love, but she was hesitant. His children were still at home, she was in her mid-forties, and taking on early motherhood again—with one child under ten and teenagers besides—felt daunting.

She didn’t want to do it. But again, she went back to God. She was willing to accept His will in her life, and it ended up being a huge blessing for her—and for them.

She learned many lessons, and they grew together. His children came to see her as their mother, and they loved her deeply. Beautiful things came from that union.

The last story I want to tell you as we finish up the mission-driven life of Catherine Marshall brings us full circle.

Her son Peter got married, and it turned out that he and his wife shared a genetic combination that gave their children a 50% chance of inheriting a rare, fatal disease.

Their first child was healthy, but their second was born with the disease and died within a few months. When they were expecting their third—a little girl—they knew the risk.

When she was born, she too had the disease.

Peter Jr., and especially Catherine, decided they would intervene—that somehow God would perform a miracle and save this baby’s life. They were determined.

Catherine did what she knew best: she turned to intercessory prayer. She had led many prayer groups before, so she gathered a dozen devoted friends and they prayed around the clock for a week.

They did everything medically possible and spiritually possible.

By this time, Peter Jr. had experienced a personal conversion, had come back to God and to Christianity, and was even serving as a pastor. He and his wife were happily married and devoted to faith.

But despite their prayers and efforts, the baby’s life was not spared. She died within a few months.

This loss sent Catherine into one of the deepest depressions of her life. Once again, something happened she couldn’t control—something she didn’t want—and she believed she had done everything right. She couldn’t understand why God hadn’t intervened.

For months she languished—depressed, sleepless, anxious, and withdrawn. Her husband Len couldn’t reach her.

Finally, after several months, two of her close friends came to see her. They came to lovingly confront her. She had been in seclusion, and they knew it was time.

Now, this isn’t how we often handle things today. In our modern world, we sometimes forget that peace can still come even when we don’t understand.

Catherine didn’t have a genetic disorder causing her depression—this was circumstantial grief, deep and understandable. Her friends had given her time to grieve, but after months of isolation, they felt led to intervene.

They asked her about her anger toward God. She insisted she wasn’t angry—because she knew it would do no good. But they told her that God wanted her to stop wallowing in self-pity, to confess the sin of rebellion, and to repent.

It was a powerful moment.

Now, there’s absolutely nothing wrong with seeking professional help or medication when needed. But sometimes, as Catherine demonstrated throughout her life, deep peace also requires honest self-examination and alignment with truth.

She explained to her friends that confession and repentance hadn’t helped. She said:

“I’ve already done this again and again. I honestly have. It’s the complete lack of response that confounds me. I’ve never lived in this kind of vacuum before.
I talk, I pray—nothing. For most of my life, I’ve felt God’s presence, heard His voice, received thoughts that I knew came from Him. No more. He’s gone out of my life.”

She told them she had been so caught up in the battle for her granddaughter Amy’s life that she could hardly think straight.

Through this experience, she eventually realized that she had been acting on her will—not necessarily God’s.

She wrote:

“I’ve always tried to be 100% in everything I do, and always before, God honored my efforts. Why not this time?”

And that realization was profound.

It helped her see what she had been missing: she had to accept life as it was, to stop fighting against it.

This is something we talk about often—in the book and in the Academy—that there are things we can control and things we cannot.

When we can’t control something, we have to truly let go.

I realized I had been hanging on to expectations—things I wanted to happen—and that was, in its own way, rebellion.

Catherine wrote something that finally made it clear:

“We must completely and profoundly accept the circumstances which God allows. If He can do anything, He can change circumstances—and if He chooses not to, then it is our job to accept them.”

That doesn’t mean accepting defeat. It means accepting reality so deeply that we are no longer in rebellion—and then we can bloom right where we are.

Her friend Virginia pinpointed it:

“Catherine, what lies at the root of your anguish is your insistence on understanding. You want answers. You want to know why.”

And that’s the key difference.

When her husband Peter died years before, she didn’t know why—but she accepted it and found peace.

She wrote:

“I am beginning to see it all now. The instant we are in a state of rebellion, we have not only lost our contentment and joy—we have also declared personal war on God. If God is truly God, then He is Lord and ruler of circumstances.
So if we are rebellious against the circumstances He has allowed, then we are, in practical fact, rebelling against Him.
No wonder God withdrew His presence from me. My spirit of rebellion shut the door in His face. It was saying, ‘I will do it my own way. I will be the boss of my own life.’”

From that point on, she began rising at six again, spending that hour with God in prayer and scripture each morning. She felt renewal.

Not long after, her health began to decline again. The damage from her earlier tuberculosis worsened, and she eventually passed away.

But the lessons she left us with are powerful.

Accepting the circumstances God allows doesn’t mean we stop growing. It means we stop using them as excuses not to grow.

We stop saying, “I can’t change because of my kids, my husband, my finances, my health, my past…”

We profoundly accept what we cannot control—so that God can show us how to grow within those circumstances.

And when we do that, peace and purpose return.

That’s what Catherine’s life showed me—and why her story has meant so much to me personally.

Her willingness to do this personal inventory all throughout her life—to accept the circumstances God allowed, and then seek truth and apply the principles of human growth and potential—led her to constantly move forward, forgive, develop, and give.

She answered calls to write, to pray, to serve, to lead, to love—and she did it all as a servant leader.

She truly inspires me.

I hope something in her story has lifted you today. I hope it’s reminded you of a principle you can begin to practice—and inspired you to live more intentionally by the seven laws of life mission.

May you find deeper meaning, chase your potential while bringing your family along with you, and have a positive impact in the world through your unique gifts.

You are divinely fashioned. God loves you dearly. He will use you if you are willing—and He will heal you if you will let His will be done in your life.

Thank you for joining me today. I’m so grateful we could spend this time together. I hope you have a wonderful week, and I’ll see you next time.

Get Your 3 FREE Audiobook Chapters of The Mission Driven Life: Discover and Fulfill Your Unique Contribution to the World: https://www.themissiondrivenmom.com/

In this brief interview, Carolyn shares how the principles of the MDM Academy transformed her life, her marriage, and her relationships. She discusses why the program appealed to her, the rich friendships she developed through the academy, and how principles are improving her life!

If you've ever wondered about whether or not this program is for you or your family, this interview will answer your questions and inspire you to let principles transform YOUR life!

Listen to the David Emerald interview for a deep dive into some of the concepts that have changed Carolyn's life! https://www.themissiondrivenmom.com/podcasts/the-mission-driven-mom-podcast/episodes/2148868481

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Podcast Transcript (AI Generated)

 All right. Welcome back to the podcast! Thanks for joining me today. I’ve got Carolyn Marriott with me — a good friend and a member of the Mission Driven Mom Academy. We’re just going to talk for a few minutes today about her experience.

For those of you who might be considering it, have gone through part of it, or are wondering how to get through it — or even what it’s all about and why you should care — Carolyn’s going to share some of her experiences. I thought she would be a great person to answer some of your questions, concerns, and other things that have come up about what this whole thing is, why it matters, and how it can bless your life.

So Carolyn, let’s start by you just telling us a little bit about yourself — your family, your career path, education, whatever you’d like to share.

Carolyn:
Okay. Well, let’s go clear back. I was a straight-A student all through high school — pretty good in college.

Audrey:
Mm-hmm.

Carolyn:
Not quite as straight-A, but still good. But I always knew there was something missing.

Audrey:
I felt that way too.

Carolyn:
Yeah. That’s so crazy. Why is that? Ugh.

Audrey:
“This can’t be it.” Like, is this it?

Carolyn:
Exactly. I had this piece of paper in my hand, and I knew I’d never read Shakespeare yet! I mean, I knew enough to know that there were holes — that I didn’t know how to think. I knew that for a long time.

Maybe it was because my dad was such a good example — he was super smart, always reading difficult things. I wouldn’t necessarily say classics, but he was always reading and talking about ideas and stuff. He didn’t really teach us how to do it — maybe he modeled it — but we didn’t really have discussions.

Anyway, I don’t mean to criticize him, but maybe it was because of him that I knew I was inadequately educated.

And then as I started having kids and sending them to school, I was unhappy with the school system. We were not in a good district, and I began homeschooling. That’s when I say my education really started, because all of a sudden I had this fantastic interest in learning — what education was all about — and started asking questions.

Audrey:
Yeah.

Carolyn:
I started doing a book group, just knowing I wanted to stay intellectually active, because especially as a mother of a lot of children, you just feel like a beast of burden. It kept my mind busy and gave me things to think about.

Looking back though, they were kind of lame book discussions.

Audrey:
Right? You don’t know what you don’t know.

Carolyn:
Exactly! We’d be like, “I don’t know, why did Tess do that?” or “That was so weird.” We were trying to talk about ideas, but we didn’t really know how. So again, I was getting there — but I needed MDM a long time ago. Let’s just say that. I needed Mission Driven Teen!

Audrey:
Yeah.

Carolyn:
But you know, I’m not dead yet, so—

Audrey:
There you go.

Carolyn:
There’s still time! Anyway, I was almost done with my kids-at-home stage of life, and I was in a homeschool group. I don’t know how they learned about Mission Driven Mom, but I would hear their comments. They would say such cool things, and I was like, “Wow, that was so profound! What is this? How are you guys learning this stuff?”

I think that’s how I first heard about it. I also was somehow on an email list.

Audrey:
Oh, oh!

Carolyn:
Yeah, it’s a little vague because it’s been a while, and it took me a while to get started after I first heard of it. Once I started, I don’t think it had been going very long.

Audrey:
What made you sign up in the first place?

Carolyn:
Well, I’ve always had this desire to learn more. I could see from my friends that they were discussing things and ideas I hadn’t even thought about. Because I had that desire for more, I wanted to know what they were getting that I wasn’t.

We actually had monthly book discussions with our group, and they seemed to be coming up with such good stuff. So I signed up!

It took me a while to get started. I had every intention of going through the book — because back in the day, we got a paper book.

Audrey:
Yeah — the hard copy workbook. It’s just a printable now.

Carolyn:
Right. I had my plans to go through it, and it was encouraged that we get an accountability partner. So I thought, “I should probably do that.”

Audrey:
Yeah.

Carolyn:
We decided to email each other every week about what we’d done, but that didn’t go so great — for about six months actually. Then we met at one of the Celebrations — I think it was the first Celebration.

Meeting her in person, sitting next to each other, we made a new connection and decided we needed to do a Zoom meeting. So every week we started doing Zoom meetings together.

Audrey:
That’s great.

Carolyn:
And that’s when we really took off.

Audrey:
My daughter does it with a couple of women she’s met — they’re in different states and everything —

Carolyn:
Oh wow.

Audrey:
Yeah, they’re in different parts of the program.

Carolyn:
My first partner and I worked together, and that worked really well. We could discuss ideas with each other and talk about how we were applying things in our lives.

That’s something I would really encourage people to do — get together with others. I’ve never met anyone in this program that I didn’t just adore. I’ve met so many great women.

Audrey:
Yeah.

Carolyn:
They’re like-minded — they think being a mother is important, they believe they have a mission, they really want to learn, they’re seeking truth. That’s my kind of girl.

Audrey:
Yeah. Amen.

Carolyn:
Amen!

So Valerie, my first partner — she’s quite a bit younger; she could be my daughter — but that didn’t matter. We got along great. Then we heard of other women and ended up joining their group. Now we’re in a group of about eight of us who meet weekly.

I’ve since met even more women and now have the best friends in the world. What do we do together? We talk about ideas.

You know, years ago I heard someone say, “You should talk about ideas, not people” — as in, don’t gossip. And I remember thinking, What else is there?

Audrey:
Yeah!

Carolyn:
Like, what ideas would we even talk about?

Audrey:
Yeah.

Carolyn:
Now I get it — there are so many!

Audrey:
Yeah, I didn’t get it either back then — but now, there are so many.

Carolyn:
Exactly.

Audrey:
So tell me what you remember — what were some of the things that stood out to you that you were learning in the program?

Carolyn:
The number one — probably my biggest takeaway — is just to be a creator.

When I opened my book, there was a little paper insert that said, “I am a creator.” I literally had tears spring to my eyes because I’d never heard that before — and I instantly knew it was true.

One of the recurring blessings in my life has been recognizing that I am not a victim. I can choose the life I want. I can create the life I want. Things will happen to me that I can’t control —

Audrey:
Yeah.

Carolyn:
— but I can control how I respond to the circumstances I’m given. And in that way, I am like God. I create with what I’ve got.

That’s been life-changing. It’s made my marriage better, all my relationships better. It’s made me happier. I can recognize when I’m in victim mode — and I’ll say, “Okay, I’m in victim mode right now,” — but now I recognize it, and I come out of it.

Whereas before, I think I lived in victim mode for years — decades, maybe — blaming others, feeling helpless, hopeless.

Audrey:
Yeah.

Carolyn:
So that was huge.

Audrey:
That’s huge. So why do you feel like it’s made such a big difference in your relationships?

Carolyn:
Well, I’m not blaming my husband, for example. I’m not blaming him because he’s the way he is and wants to do things a certain way.

Audrey:
Okay.

Carolyn:
And I want to do it another way, but I’m more of a pleaser and he’s more opinionated.

Audrey:
Yeah.

Carolyn:
And then I’d get mad at him because he had that opinion and I had to do what he wanted, right? But no — he doesn’t want a doormat wife anyway. As much as he likes having his way and not having to give in — that’s not what he really wants.

Audrey:
So how are you showing up as a creator without being off-putting to people — or making them feel like now it’s your way or the highway, or something like that?

You know what I mean? That kind of nuance — how do you feel like you’re showing up in relationships in this “creator” way? Can you describe that?

Carolyn:
Well, maybe it looks like saying, “Let’s talk about this, because this is what I think, and this is how I think we should do it. What do you think about that?” And then, “Okay, I can see one of us might have to compromise here — and if it’s me, I’m not going to hold it over your head forever,” that kind of thing.

It doesn’t mean you have to have your way; it’s just not blaming the other person every time something goes wrong.

Audrey:
Yeah. And owning your own stuff.

Carolyn:
Owning your own stuff — yes, exactly. Maybe I’m not the easiest person to live with! And when I consider that, it helps me see more clearly.

Another huge thing that has really helped me in my relationships is when we worked to discover our top values.

Audrey:
Yeah.

Carolyn:
At first, I thought it was kind of dumb. I mean, of course all these values are fabulous — how can I possibly choose? Like, I’m not going to say honesty isn’t a top value for me, but it’s not the top. It took me a while to realize that doesn’t mean I go around lying — it’s just not one of my top three values.

Audrey:
Yeah.

Carolyn:
So that was a huge thing. It took me weeks, but I slowly discovered, “Oh my goodness — the way things look, aesthetics, are really important to me.” That’s one of my top three values.

Audrey:
Wow.

Carolyn:
And it doesn’t mean my life is perfectly aesthetically beautiful, but it’s something that deeply matters to me — and that’s okay. That was freeing, because I used to think, “I shouldn’t be so focused on that; it’s so worldly.”

Audrey:
Yeah.

Carolyn:
But no — it’s one of my gifts to the world.

Audrey:
Yes.

Carolyn:
And then my husband — well, his top three values are different from mine.

Audrey:
Sure.

Carolyn:
So now I recognize that. Independence, for example, is probably his number one value.

Audrey:
Yeah.

Carolyn:
And for me, that’s like number ninety-nine on my list — pretty far down there!

Audrey:
Uh-huh.

Carolyn:
So now I value his independence instead of seeing it as annoying.

Audrey:
Wow.

Carolyn:
I hadn’t identified that before. I just knew he always wanted to do things his own way, own his own business — things that were really important to him, but not important to me. So I didn’t understand it.

Now I see — that’s one of his top values. Aesthetics isn’t one of his, so we can work together, compromise when needed. Maybe I need a little more security than his independence provides, or maybe I need the house a little cleaner than he cares about.

We recognize those differences — and they’re good. They’re both equally good. One isn’t better than the other.

Audrey:
That’s awesome.

Carolyn:
It really is. It also helped me respect myself more, because I used to think my gifts were kind of boring or dumb. And now I’m like, “Ooh — a little bit of perfectionism can be good!”

Like when it comes to the written word — I can go in, fix the misspellings, put commas where they belong.

Audrey:
Yeah, and you enjoy it — and you’re good at it.

Carolyn:
Exactly. That was a big deal for me.

Audrey:
That’s awesome.

So what about the concept of principles? That’s a pretty heavy focus in the program. Does that mean something different to you now than it did when you started? And if so, what’s the difference — and what difference has it made?

Carolyn:
When I read something now, I’m looking for the underlying principles. When I watch a movie, I ask, “What are the underlying principles? What are they saying? What’s their worldview?”

It’s totally helped me become a more principled, critical thinker — to dissect what people are saying, understand where their fallacies or flaws are. I can recognize, “That’s not based on truth. That’s not based on natural law.”

Audrey:
So you feel more discerning — more grounded in principles of truth.

Carolyn:
Yes. More discerning.

Audrey:
And what difference do those principles make in your life? You think differently, you discern better — but how is that helpful day-to-day?

Carolyn:
Because I’m able to align my life more closely with true principles instead of misbeliefs that make me less happy and less successful.

Audrey:
Can you think of an example of one of those?

Carolyn:
Hmm, not off the top of my head — but I’d go back to that idea that I didn’t recognize I saw myself as a victim.

Audrey:
Yeah.

Carolyn:
And that it was better to create than to blame or persecute.

Audrey:
Yeah.

Carolyn:
That shift was everything.

Audrey:
So why is it important to be principle-centered in your mind? If somebody were to ask you, “Why should I even bother learning principles? Who cares?” — what would you say?

Carolyn:
Because there is truth — and there are consequences to living according to truth or not. You can’t escape that. Giving lip service won’t change it.

If you say something that’s not true is true, it doesn’t matter that you say it — it’s still not true, and it won’t lead you to goodness or happiness.

Audrey:
Yeah. Oh, that’s a great way to say it.

What was one of your favorite books in the program?

Carolyn:
Alcoholics Anonymous.

Audrey:
Oh wow! Why? I mean, I love that book, but what did you love about it?

Carolyn:
I just didn’t expect it to be so applicable to me.

Audrey:
Yeah.

Carolyn:
Everyone should read it. It should be required reading.

Audrey:
Yes — for all people. I totally agree.

Carolyn:
I’ve never been truly addicted to a substance — no alcohol, drugs, anything like that. But I have reacted to fear. I have been selfish. I’ve had those same thought processes that could lead me down the path of addiction.

And I have my little “mini addictions” that could be cured by applying the truths in that book.

Audrey:
Yeah. Yeah, I love that one so much.

Okay — a couple last things. What about the concept of mission? You mentioned earlier that these women care about being mothers and about mission. What does that concept mean to you, and why does it matter in your life?

Carolyn:
Well, I love the idea that being a mother is a mission. I truly felt that. To me, being a mother was the pinnacle of my life. And now I’m a grandmother — so it continues, but it’s not the same.

Audrey:
Yeah.

Carolyn:
But the idea that I can make a difference in the world is super important to me — that my strengths matter. Because we also did StrengthsFinder in the program, and that was very helpful. I discovered I had strengths I didn’t realize not everyone had, for example.

Audrey:
Yeah.

Carolyn:
Sometimes things come so easily to you that you don’t even realize they’re hard for other people.

Audrey:
You think everyone’s like that.

Carolyn:
Exactly. So that was great for self-discovery.

Now I can’t remember what we were talking about!

Audrey:
Mission — and why it’s important.

Carolyn:
Oh right, yes! So just realizing that my strengths can be used for good purposes — that’s huge. I’ve been reaching out and doing more in my community.

I recently worked with a Senate candidate in our state.

Audrey:
Wow.

Carolyn:
Yeah. I just feel more secure in the gifts I have and that I can offer them when people need them. I’m doing more things.

As much as, honestly, I’d like to sit and watch Netflix all the time — I feel that pull, I’m not going to lie — but that’s not how I want to spend my life.

Audrey:
Yeah.

Carolyn:
I don’t want to look back at decades of Netflix. Like, yeah, I really want more than that out of life. So to feel like I have a mission—there are things, there are people I can reach, causes I can help.

One of my specific loves is just the love of our country and the love of our Constitution.

Audrey:
Yeah.

Carolyn:
And while I think a lot of Americans have that, I’ve always kind of had a strong bend that way. I tend to enter the political spectrum because I don’t think I would make a good candidate myself, but I can be a great support person.

Audrey:
Yeah.

Carolyn:
And I’ve been a teacher that teaches about the Constitution and things like that. I’m passionate about that. I don’t see myself ever being world-famous, but I think I’m making a difference.

Audrey:
Yeah, you’re in there.

Carolyn:
Yeah. And if we all do that, the world is a much better place.

Audrey:
I love how you said that. It sounds to me like one of the things you’re expressing is that you feel more—maybe confident? I’m not exactly sure if that’s the right word.

Carolyn:
Yeah, maybe that’s a good word.

Audrey:
More self-aware. More settled into yourself. More comfortable with yourself.

Carolyn:
Yes.

Audrey:
Yeah, it’s an interesting process that I’ve watched with a lot of moms. It’s like a kind of humble confidence. It’s, “I’m very aware of where I’m not strong, but it’s okay for me not to be strong there because I know where I am strong. I know what I can give, and I don’t need to be able to give everything.”

Carolyn:
Yes.

Audrey:
“I can just tell these few things.” And so you can be honest with yourself and other people about what your limits are, but because you know you genuinely have something of value to give, you can show up and do that with a little more—

Carolyn:
Yeah.

Audrey:
—enthusiasm.

Carolyn:
Totally, totally well said. Yep.

Audrey:
Yeah, that’s so awesome. And it all goes back to the story I always tell about being in that class with those women, my friends, and them going up to the front with those roses and not being able to say anything good about themselves. Just feeling like—how can we build something that a woman walks away from…

I mean, I would say that makes me feel so grateful and humbled that the program came together in a way that creates that outcome for so many women, because that’s ultimately what I want. I didn’t want them to feel like they were superwoman and could do it all and be it all.

And I feel like, with all our little “I can do anything, I can be anything, follow your dreams” kind of cultural…

Carolyn:
Cultural selfishness.

Audrey:
Yeah, little—I mean, I don’t know if I’d call them lies, but they’re definitely little beliefs we throw out there. People internalize those. And this whole thing—I mean, when I was younger, maybe it’s just because I wasn’t a grown woman yet, but I don’t remember so much of this talk about “I’m not enough” and “How can I be enough?”

I feel like that’s really grown, and I do think it’s attacking women—especially mothers. Which is why, I mean, lots of women do the program who aren’t necessarily mothers, but specifically for mothers—because I feel like they’re kind of beat up.

Like the culture doesn’t value what you’re saying. You’re proud of being a mom. That was the pinnacle of your life mission. I feel the exact same way. You know, there’s this picture my brother took—he’s a professional photographer—of me holding one of my little girls at a family wedding.

And I told Blaine, “That’s what I want on the front of my funeral program.” Because I want to be remembered as a mom.

Carolyn:
Mm-hmm.

Audrey:
And I know many incredible women who feel that way. But the world tells them that’s not noble enough, that’s not worthy enough of them or their lives. And those who have done it and tried to do it well know it called for the best that was in them. It sculpted their character more than anything else.

And so for them to not feel proud of that—to feel like they’ve got to lose their personality or can’t do anything good—that’s so sad. It’s just that tricky dance our culture struggles with now: how do I be a mom and find fulfillment, and be proud of that, but also not feel like that means I don’t exist as a separate entity too, and there’s nothing for me as an individual? Just finding that balance.

Carolyn:
Yeah, that is a tricky balance.

Audrey:
Yeah.

Carolyn:
Yeah. Mothers are just so critical to society.

Audrey:
Yeah.

Carolyn:
As are fathers. But it’s making me think—so many times I’ve said, “Well, I’m just a mom.”

Audrey:
No. No.

Carolyn:
Yep.

Audrey:
Yeah.

Carolyn:
You feel a little apologetic, like you’re just… yeah, you’re in the trenches. There’s no glory.

Audrey:
Yeah.

Carolyn:
Yeah.

Audrey:
Well, that’s exciting to know that your daughter’s doing the program too, and hopefully it’s beneficial to her and her family as well. What is one thing, as we finish up, that you would like to tell someone who’s thinking about doing the program—or maybe thinking about putting their teen in the teen program—or who’s stuck in the middle of it and struggling to finish out? Any words of wisdom or advice for them?

Carolyn:
Well, I mean, definitely do it. Definitely stick with it. To me, if someone’s stuck, that means they could use a discussion group or—yeah—they need to reach out to the community. I think that would do the trick.

Audrey:
Yeah.

Carolyn:
For anyone else, I guess I can just give my testimonial that it’s a well-curated program. I really appreciate that you found the best stuff. And with some books, it was nice that we didn’t read the whole thing—we just read selections. I really appreciated that you picked the best of everything.

I know there are a lot of resources out there, so it was really nice to have them selected. I think you did a very, very excellent job picking what would really help us learn and change.

The earlier in your life that you can be grounded on truth and principles—and correct any misbeliefs you’ve already picked up as a young person—the better.

Audrey:
Yeah.

Carolyn:
Getting on more firm grounding will change the trajectory of your life. And I don’t care what age you are. I’m 60. I’m old.

Audrey:
You’ve got a lot of life left!

Carolyn:
Yeah.

Audrey:
Well, thank you, Carolyn.

Carolyn:
Thank you for Mission Driven Mom Academy.

Audrey:
You’re welcome. I’m glad to know it’s had such a positive impact in your life and your family’s life. Hopefully, for those wondering whether this is for them, this has answered some of their questions and concerns.

I hope it encourages you to get in there—grab a friend, do it together, take your time, apply the principles as you go. I think you’ll find over time that—while there are some pretty dramatic testimonials—there are also a lot of women saying, “My life is richer. It’s fuller. I’m more confident. I’m more settled in myself. I feel better able to navigate life and care for myself and love myself properly.”

And I’m really, really grateful that’s been their experience.

Carolyn:
That did remind me of one more thing—and that is, just take it in bite-sized pieces. There’s no rush. You want enough of a challenge, but I just fit it into the cracks of my life. I’d think, “Oh, I have half an hour here, I’ll grab that book, I’ll take it to the doctor’s office,” whatever.

Rarely did I have a set time to sit down and do it. Probably like, I don’t know, 30 pages a week, I’d say. And there are lots of videos—you can just watch or listen to them. They’re in an app now, so they’re easy to consume while you’re driving.

Audrey:
Yeah.

Carolyn:
So just pace yourself—enough to be a challenge, but not too much to be overwhelming.

Audrey:
Yeah. All right, well thank you so much.

Of course, if this has been helpful, please pass it along, subscribe, like, review—all that good stuff. Thanks for joining us. See you next time.

Get Your 3 FREE Chapters from The Mission Driven Life: Discover and Fulfill Your Unique Contribution to the World: https://www.themissiondrivenmom.com/.

For years, every time Audrey spoke somewhere, no matter the topic, people would approach her afterward and tell her that she had inspired them to read more, "But," they wanted to know, "what should I read?"

This podcast has the answer!

If you're someone who wants to be a lifelong learner and just isn't sure where to start. Or if you want to read more enriching books but don't know how to choose. Or you would love to read books to your children, but don't know how to pick the best ones. Or you wish you could discuss good books with your friends but have no idea what you should be looking for...Audrey is here to help!

With a few simple guidelines, you will be far more confident in choosing the right things to read, books which can enrich your life, and help you lift others. 

If you want to level up your reading, take a listen!

_________________________________

PODCAST TRANSCRIPT (AI Generated)

 Welcome to the Mission-Driven Mom podcast. This podcast is for moms just like you—moms who want to learn how to glorify God by finding and embracing true principles, discovering and developing your greatest gifts, and using them to serve your family and community.

Jordan Peterson once said something that really encapsulates the “why” behind what we’re going to talk about for a few minutes today:

“We’re always deciding, with every choice we make, whether we are going to do good or harm—by action or by inaction. Whether we should do good, or harm, or nothing at all. I think that depends, to some degree, on who we think we are and what we believe we’re capable of. It seems to me that the humanities, when they’re properly taught, are the study of who we could be as individuals. And we need to know that, because otherwise, we’ll be much less than we are—and could be. And that’s not a trivial problem.”

That really struck me. All throughout the day, every day, we’re called upon to make micro-decisions and macro-decisions. Those decisions affect us, they affect the people around us, and they reflect the kind of person we’ve become.

This is why the ancients—and really, all the way up until maybe the last hundred years or so—the greatest thinkers and leaders constantly talked about virtue. Virtue was considered the primary purpose of being human. That was the ultimate goal. That was the end game.

We are the only creatures we know of who have self-consciousness, self-awareness, and the capacity for self-improvement. Because we have that capacity, it’s incumbent upon us to develop it—to become the most virtuous humans we can be.

This reminds me of something John Quincy Adams wrote to his son while he was serving as an ambassador to Russia. His son was only about 10 or 11 years old at the time. In his letter, Adams wrote something like this:

“You boys brag a lot about how many books you’ve read. But those books are of no benefit to you if they don’t make you wiser and more virtuous. What’s the point of plowing through a stack of books if they haven’t changed you?”

That’s the essence of what I’m all about: truth that changes you. Truth that makes you free. And it connects beautifully with what Jordan Peterson was saying—that the humanities are really the study of being human and of striving to be the best humans we can be.

This is why I’m such an advocate for lifelong learning. When we seek truth and apply it, not only do we gain tools for solving the problems we face, but we also grow in virtue. Lifelong learning develops our character, shows us over and over again the kind of person we could become, and motivates us to keep striving.

I talked recently in another video podcast about Benjamin Franklin’s book club and the impact it had. It illustrates this same principle: we often don’t realize how much good can come simply from interacting with the truly great—the kind of “great” that is genuinely virtuous and has a profoundly positive influence on the world.

So today I want to focus on something that might seem a little trivial at first glance: how to choose books—whether for yourself, your children, or a book club.

I am a huge proponent of book clubs and group learning because discussion is so powerful. In future podcasts, I’ll share more about why discussion matters so much—how it changes the way we think, the way we live, and the way we apply truth. If you follow me at all, you know I teach the five types of questions, how to lead quality discussions, how to look for themes, how to mark your book, and most importantly, how to identify principles.

But here’s the thing: none of those skills matter if you choose the wrong books. The wrong readings will derail your efforts before you even begin.

Now, when it comes to book clubs, many follow a “democratic” method—everyone takes turns choosing a book and leading the discussion. The challenge is that members have widely varying backgrounds, skills, and levels of preparation. I’ve seen book clubs where members hadn’t even read the book they chose! That kind of inconsistency creates an environment where participants don’t know what to expect—whether the reading will be worthwhile, whether the discussion will be meaningful, or whether someone will simply hijack the conversation.

And when that happens, people lose motivation.

But book clubs—done right—are one of the best ways to continue lifelong learning. Having a deadline motivates you to actually read, and discussing the material with others deepens your understanding. In my own book club with my sister and some friends, we use these principles. We eat, we laugh, we learn—and the discussions are rich and life-giving.

So how do you choose books that will make that possible?

I want to give you three simple but important tools for discerning which books to read—whether you’re teaching a class, parenting your children, or running a book club. These three suggestions can make all the difference in your experience.

In fact, I once wrote about this, and I’d like to share a little story from that piece—an experience I had while attending a friend’s book club…

So I went to this book club—it consisted of neighbors who had been meeting regularly for many years. Out of the 12 women who attended, about half had finished the book for that month. Some had started it, and a couple had even refused to purchase or read it at all. As you can imagine, this made it difficult to have a meaningful discussion.

When they did talk about the book, the conversation felt flat—just sharing a favorite part, a quote, or a brief comment. But when they shifted to discussing their personal struggles with spouses, children, friends, or work, the conversation suddenly came alive.

And this is my point: pair the two. Let the things you’re reading inform your real-life experiences. My YouTube channel used to be called Education for Real Life because that’s exactly what true education is supposed to provide—skills for living. That’s what we want to resurrect.

Now, I personally didn’t say much during that discussion, but when I sensed they were winding down, I asked a few questions. Honestly, I wanted to evaluate this book club as a kind of test case for my theories about book clubs.

I asked, “How do you choose the books you’ll read?”
One woman replied, “Everyone gets a turn on a rotating schedule.”

That’s how most book clubs operate.

I followed up: “Had anyone here read this book before it was recommended?”
The answer: “No.”

“Then how did you come to choose it?” I asked.
“It was recommended to one of the members by a friend.”

Finally, I asked, “Will any of you ever read this book again?”

And here’s what shocked me: even the staunchest defenders of the book—the women who had purchased it, read the whole thing, and engaged in the discussion—all answered no. Not one woman there thought the book was worth reading again.

“Really?” I asked, genuinely surprised. “Why not?”

One woman’s answer explained the problem perfectly. She said, “There just aren’t very many books worth reading more than once. Maybe a couple hundred years ago that was different, but now we’re inundated with information. Honestly, if you look at how many books are published every year, very few are worth a second read.”

Now, while I know many people feel this way, her comment still surprised me—because I own many books that I believe are absolutely worth reading again and again. For me, her perspective felt a little tragic.

Another woman added, “Yeah, I’ve only read a couple of books twice in my whole life.”

Then something fascinating happened. A woman sitting next to me—one of the members who hadn’t purchased or read the book that month—spoke up. She said, “I read The Help three times this past year. We read it for group several months ago, and when I finished it, I went right home and read it again. Then I read it a third time.”

I asked her, “Why three times?”

She replied, “Because it made me want to be better.”

That’s the key. That’s the power of choosing the right books.

This is why I’m doing this series on book clubs—and why I’m releasing this one as a podcast. I want you to have these tools. Because what most people think they want in their book clubs are books that are simply entertaining. But the books that truly enrich the club—the ones that bless the lives of those who attend, and keep them motivated to come back—are the books that are enriching.

Now, enriching books can certainly be entertaining. But often, entertaining books are not enriching. Great books are both. That’s the goal.

Think of it like food. We think we want candy—but what we really need, what nourishes us, are vegetables. And just like vegetables, great books can both taste wonderful and nourish us at the same time. That’s the kind of reading we want.

Here’s the point: some things are “the best” by my standards, and some by your standards. But some things are truly the best by history’s standards. Certain books, music, and art outlast the popularity of their day. They endure not just their generation, but even centuries, because they speak universally to humankind.

Personally, I don’t have a lot of extra time to read for book club. If I’m going to invest my time, I want it to be worthwhile. That doesn’t mean I want to cozy up with Moby-Dick tonight, but it does mean there are so many incredible works we could be reading and discussing—works that could truly change how we think and live.

Unfortunately, most book clubs spend their time on easy-to-read, modern novels. And that’s a tragedy, because the same time could be spent on books that are far more meaningful.

Not only are better readings richer in content, they’re actually more fun to discuss.

So when I say “classics,” I don’t just mean old books. I mean any reading that:

And here’s the secret: one of the biggest problems in our culture today is the absence of this kind of reading. If our schools were filled with the right kinds of books, we would be producing a different kind of man and woman—and, ultimately, a different kind of culture.

The Founding generation understood this. After the Constitution was ratified, the leaders said, in essence: “We’ve established a free nation. Now we must educate the people to remain free.” Education wasn’t just about literacy—it was about forming character, cultivating virtue, and preparing citizens to perpetuate liberty.

So if you didn’t receive that kind of education in school—and I didn’t—get it for yourself. And then pass it on to your family.

That brings me to the first principle in choosing what to read for lifelong learning—whether it’s for your family, your children, or your book club:

Stick with the original.

Let me give you an example. Several years ago, I was doing research for one of my classes. I had to visit a local private school, where I listened to a lecture on Christopher Columbus. It was part of their American history studies.

At the time, there was a lot of buzz in the country about putting Columbus “on trial” in classrooms and finding him guilty of heinous crimes. That narrative is still circulating today—though it has only intensified…

I’ve written and spoken elsewhere about this, but I believe what we’ve done to Christopher Columbus is truly tragic.

When I was young—50 years ago—we admired Columbus. But in the 1990s and early 2000s, suddenly he was despised. I watched that shift happen in my own lifetime, and it felt bizarre. I couldn’t figure out why it had changed so drastically, and I thought about it a lot.

So when I was working on this research project and heard a speaker lecture about Columbus, my interest was piqued. He shared stories I’d never heard before, and I was fascinated. But what struck me most wasn’t so much what he said about Columbus—it was that he repeatedly referenced Columbus’s own journal.

By this point, I had already realized that the private university I had attended as a young adult had not given me nearly enough exposure to original sources. But that lecture, combined with what I was seeing in the news, helped me understand the importance of going directly to the source on a whole new level.

I went home, typed “Columbus’s journal” into Google, and there it was. In just a few pages, I could read for myself who Columbus was, what he did, and—most importantly—how he felt about his life and decisions.

I could learn about Columbus from Columbus.

It was incredibly liberating and exhilarating. No more relying on someone else’s opinion—I could find out for myself. I hadn’t done this earlier in my life simply because I didn’t realize I could or even should. Others don’t do it because they don’t know how, or they feel intimidated. Many people believe older writings are too difficult to understand.

But that simply isn’t true. Yes, Shakespeare can be challenging, and yes, you may need to read Plato’s Republic or Allegory of the Cave a few times to fully grasp it. But most older writings—letters, treatises, documents, even Shakespeare—have been translated into modern English. You can start there.

Columbus’s journal was not hard to read. Neither are many of the original sources I now recommend: the letters of John and Abigail Adams, Cicero’s speeches, Marcus Aurelius’s Meditations. They’re not as easy as a modern novel or a children’s classic, but they’re far more accessible than most people assume. Even Shakespeare, once you get familiar with the plot and take a little time, can not only be understood but thoroughly enjoyed.

So here’s the first principle when choosing what to read for yourself, your family, or your book club:

1. Go to the original.

Most of our public-school textbooks are three, four, or even five steps removed from the original. Someone read something, who read something else, who read something else, and then a committee of scholars compiled it. Along the way, they picked and chose based on their worldview, values, and judgments of what was “important.”

But that doesn’t necessarily make you a more virtuous person. It might not help you discover who you really are. It might not benefit your life.

So whenever you can, go straight to the source. Learn from Columbus, from Plato, from Abigail Adams—directly.

2. Mix it up.

Don’t read only novels. Don’t read only nonfiction. Don’t read only self-help. Expose yourself—and your book club—to all kinds of reading.

I’ve included a bullet list in the description to give you some ideas, but here’s just a sampling of the kinds of genres you can explore:

You see, most book clubs fall into monotony because they read almost exclusively modern novels. That’s largely because these are the books friends recommend, or because they feel easy and entertaining. People think that’s what they want—but in reality, those books don’t usually provide a deeply enriching experience.

Modern novels do have their place. But they should be just one resource among many. Leaders who haven’t been exposed to other types of readings simply don’t know what’s available. But if they did, their groups would have far more enjoyable reading experiences and much more stimulating discussions.

One way to start mixing it up is to choose a subject or theme and explore it across genres. For example, say you want to study Franklin D. Roosevelt, or France, or leadership. Search your library or the internet for speeches, essays, novels, and even scientific studies on that topic.

Another way is to use the internet to search for “10 best” lists in various genres. Spend a little time comparing lists, and you’ll quickly find consensus about the true greats in each field. Then dedicate a year to reading across those genres—perhaps speeches one month, letters the next, short stories after that, and so on.

And don’t stop with just the text! Look at maps and timelines while you read. Learn about the time period, see where events took place, and pull up photos of what those places look like today. Doing this will open up a whole new world of learning—and make reading not only more meaningful, but also more fun.

Super-duper fun—and your book club becomes a little classroom.

So, the first principle is: go to the original. Stick with the original.
The second one is: mix it up.
And the third is: start simple.

As you learn more about the kinds of questions and reading skills I teach (or learn from others as well), you’ll come to see that in preparing for a great discussion, it’s far more important how you read than how much you read.

Plato’s Allegory of the Cave is just a page long, and I’ve had so many discussions about it that have gone in a million different directions. That’s the power of rich material. It’s not about the volume—it’s about the depth. And that’s also why you can actually get everyone to do the reading and come prepared. Because if it’s just one or two poems, or a short selection, people can actually engage. And those conversations can be incredible.

Now, many book clubs feel like they have to read an entire book every month. I want to say something about that. You’ve probably had it drilled into you—like I did—that you have to finish everything you start. Finish the book. Finish the assignment. But here’s the truth: you do not have to finish. You can read, and then stop when it’s no longer enriching for you.

That said, as a book club leader—or even just for your own enrichment—you can choose shorter readings that people will finish, and then you can go back to them over and over again. Your group can read as much or as little as you’d like. Just as you can use all different types of readings, you can also help your group grow in their capacity to read more effectively by starting simple.

Maybe you spend a few months, or even a couple of years, reading easier books while practicing your reading and discussion skills. The best way to do this is by choosing readings that are relatively easy to understand but that still offer rich themes and principles to explore.

Classic children’s literature, selections from self-help books, poetry, excerpts from great books, or even fairytales are wonderful for this. They’re short and approachable, but still allow for thoughtful reflection.

When you’re starting simple, choose readings that are either short and a little challenging—like a few pages from a great book, a couple of poems, or a document you can read multiple times and ponder—or easy and accessible, like children’s literature, a magazine article, or a play you can finish in a month. This gives you time to go slowly, think deeply, and really understand what you’re reading.

This approach also helps keep things fresh by rotating through different types of readings, while allowing your group’s reading and comprehension skills to grow. Eventually, you’ll be ready and even excited to tackle a more difficult classic.

And while it may feel like that day will never come, I promise you—it will. I’ve seen it happen with hundreds, probably thousands, of students and groups. I’ve had seven or eight hundred people just in the Mission Academy alone, and every time, when they follow this path, their capacity grows. Their love for learning deepens. And soon, they find themselves reading Cicero, Blackstone, Plato—just little pieces at a time—and applying the principles they discover.

It’s exhilarating. It’s fulfilling. And I can’t express enough how passionate I am about this path.

So the big “why” behind all of this is simple: so you can know who you are. So you can experience the joy of self-discovery, develop your character, and become a more virtuous person.

By sticking with the original, mixing it up, and starting simple, you can do that.

And what’s so wonderful about these tools is that they’re just a small part of what we call the MDM Way. This is our unique educational approach. It takes you to original sources. It introduces you to many different genres. It focuses on Socratic discussion and on learning by expressing your ideas. It’s deeply principle-based. And all of these good educational practices are built into everything we do.

The MDM Way is a beautiful model for the kind of education we can be giving ourselves right now, in our own lives.

If you join us in the MDM Academy, you’ll gain access to these tools and many more. You’ll be mentored as you walk through the content with us, and we’ll provide the resources you need. But even outside the Academy, you can begin today. Pick up a quality reading from an original source. Study it carefully. Ask yourself great questions. Ask the author questions. Compare it to your scriptures. And then strive to live the truths you discover.

We’ve talked today about how this applies to book clubs, but it’s just as true for your family, for your personal enrichment, and for any area of life where you want to keep learning and growing.

So thank you so much for joining me today. I hope you’ll take these simple tools to heart—choosing a variety of readings, using good study skills, and engaging in the adventure of lifelong learning. It’s such a tremendous source of joy, and so many people miss out on it.

If this was valuable to you, please share it with a friend and leave us a review.

Thanks again for being here—and I’ll see you next time.

What a privilege to interview Dr. James Lindsay—bestselling author, guest on shows such as Joe Rogan and Jordan Peterson, professional advisor on multiple court cases, and so much more!

As an expert on Critical Race Theory and modern culture, James has so much to offer our world and our moms. In this conversation we get into James’ story, how he got to where he is today, the kind of work he does, and how he helps so many understand our crazy world. With specific discussions spanning cultural dynamics, critical race theory, postmodernism, communism, and the nature of reality and truth, this interview gets a bit heavy in a few places.

But stay with us to the end where James gives some beautiful advice to parents engaged in the struggle, validating the importance of the daily work we do, and encouraging us along the path.

Please share your questions and insights with us via email at: [email protected]

And share this with a friend who needs encouragement in their parenting!

Get your 3 FREE chapters of The Mission Driven Life: Discover and Fulfill Your Unique Contribution to the World: https://www.themissiondrivenmom.com/

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TRANSCRIPT (AI Generated)

Welcome back. I'm Audrey Rindlisbacher, author of the Mission Driven Life and founder of the Mission Driven Mom. Today is a really special treat talking to James Lindsay. He's unbelievably credentialed and popular and has done so much good to help us understand our culture. Before we get into that interview, I want you to know that if you're new to this podcast, I would recommend that you keep up with the current, episodes, but also head back to the beginning and listen to some of those first podcasts.

You'll get a deep dive into the 7 Laws of Life Mission, which is what everything we do here hovers around that framework and those laws and principles. And then you'll also hear a lot of mission-driven stories of great men and women who have lived those laws and had huge positive impact in the world.

I also wanna encourage you to go get your free copy of the audio book of the Mission-Driven Life. Discover and fulfill your unique contribution to the world over at the mission driven mom.com. You can grab that. It won't be available forever, so make sure that you head over there to get your free copy of that.

And if this podcast is of benefit to you, please leave a review and pass it on. That helps us share the word about truth and principles.

This interview with James Lindsay was incredible. We talked all about what critical race theory is, why it matters to us as parents. He gave some really good advice to parents and what they should be doing with their children right now. We talked about truth and reality and the natural law. We talked about his story and experience of becoming the man that he's become and why he does what he does.

So enjoy this interview with James Lindsay.

Alright, welcome back to the podcast. We have an incredible treat today. I don't know how it happened, but James Lindsay has graciously agreed to talk to me today and to share some of his incredible wisdom and scholarship that is so needed in the world. I'm gonna give you a little bit of his professional bio.

Some of my takes on who he is, why I listen to him, why I trust him, and then we'll get into some of his experiences with some questions. So first of all I know you American born Author, mathematician. You got your PhD from the University of Tennessee in mathematics. And that's incredible. So I don't even know the level of intelligence that's required to do that.

On his bio it says professional troublemaker, which is actually true. He's written six books spanning a range of subjects including religion, philosophy of science, postmodern theory. He's a leading expert on critical race theory, and I have learned a lot from him on that. And that leads him to reject it completely.

The founder of New Discourses, and we got to meet in person. When I went to his event just a few weeks ago here in Dallas, it was phenomenal. Encourage anyone and everyone to attend in in their future opportunities. And you've got a book going right now, Cynical Theories :How Activist Scholarship Made Everything About Race, Gender, and Identity, and Why This Harms Everybody.

And that one's getting translated in 15 languages. Is that one already out, James? Yeah, that one came actually.

And that came out. That's actually, I don't know why it's worded that way. I know I just pointed you. So just mea culpa, I just told Go read the bio. That's a little bit dated on my website.

Yeah. 'Cause I'm very like weird about writing my own bios. Yeah. And as it turns out that the book came out in the summer of 2020 it was like, oh, okay. Kind of first major book about woke stuff and it is now in 30 languages and it's sold 500,000 copies. So it's it's the entry point, especially if I leave the country.

, If I leave the country, that is the book people know me for. Like I was in New Zealand. Yeah. And people were bringing it up to sign. I went to Belgium and people brought it to me and I haven't even seen most of the foreign language copies. They have different covers. They have completely different That's awesome.

And one people are bringing up copies of it that I've never seen, when foreign languages having me sign it and so it's all over the world. Yeah. It's exciting. But yeah's awesome. Yeah. Awesome. I think it like 30 languages now.

Awesome. That's awesome. I, that's the one I need to grab then.

I've been consuming all of that information from you via podcast and interviews and things like that. That would be great to grab. I just have the Marx notification of education is the one I've got. And then course you've been on all the podcasts. Jordan Peterson, Joe Rogan, all the people. I don't even know what the list is or all the people, but everybody knows you.

I've been like every podcast.

Yeah, I thi everyone so amazed and grateful for you to come today. What I can say from my own personal experience with Dr. Lindsay is that I don't even remember when I first stumbled across you. It's probably been two or three years., I don't know if it was from an interview that I saw or my sister sent it to me, but my sister and I have been exchanging another girlfriend.

Here's another Lindsay podcast, and we exchange 'em when we discuss 'em, which has been awesome. But one of the reasons why I was immediately like on board, I guess with what you talk about is because, I didn't even know about classical liberal education. I had no experience with ancient philosophy or any of that until I was married and had a couple kids. I found it inadvertently in a small liberal arts college that was nearby. And luckily I signed up and made it all the way through a master's degree. And so I have the very introductory rudiments of an okay. Decent education.

It's how I feel about it. I'm grateful for it. But what that meant was that when you used certain references and you talked about certain people, I knew what you were talking about and I feel like I feel really blessed. 'cause I feel like that gave me an edge that helped me know you knew what you were talking about because there's so many names that people could drop and if you had no frame of reference for when they lived, who they were, what their worldview was, any of that, it would be hard to know.

That's a real legitimate problem in the current culture. How do I even know who to listen to? Because I don't even know, but I especially had become very fascinated with communism and Marxism and had read and studied much about what went on in especially Russia, especially China.

And so I knew when you got in, especially the Marxist stuff, was, oh my gosh so good and really spoke to me. And I was like, and then you saw, help me see layers of it that I hadn't seen before. And so I know you do your homework. I know you know what you're talking about. Because my education luckily gave me enough information to be able to identify that.

So I'm really, really grateful for that. Grateful for all the things that you've taught me so far, what you've keyed me into, what I should be aware of,. How to understand the culture a little bit better. Postmodernism was just a nut I couldn't crack for so long. I would read books on it. I would try to, I would try to read the guys, try and, it's so hard.

So I'm so grateful for some handholding where stuff like that is concerned. I mentioned to you before we got on, we've got three levels in our academy. That third level is, a very high level introduction to just, there are these worldviews and these are some key things they teach, and postmodernism is in there. Anyway, so that's why I wanted to talk to you. That's why I wanted you on this podcast. That's why I think you're an important voice in the culture and hope that. All of the listeners to our show will get more involved in what you do. Read your books, watch your stuff.

Let's begin at the beginning, and talk about you before the storm began. I know you got this PhD. We were talking for a minute about some of the reasons that you didn't pursue all the way into academia and working there. But give us a little bit more about why did leave academia after that degree and why you were frustrated with what was going on in academia, and then segue into how you got started doing what you do now.

I know that there's article submissions. I've seen some, watched you talk about all of that stuff. And I bet a lot of our listeners don't know about that. So tell us that story.

This story can be very long. My, history doesn't make sense except when you've lived it and then it all makes sense.

It just was the natural thing to do. Yeah. Like you said, I got a PhD in math.

Yeah.

I finished that in 2010. I have a bachelor's degree in physics. My master's is in math in between. And so I introduced that. So I was in college effectively from fall of 1997 until spring of 2010. Mm-hmm. Which is a long time to be in college.

And all of it was either physics, which is a hard, pure science. Yeah. Or mathematics, which is like in some sense even more rarefied in some sense. And I bring that up because the timeframe ending in 20 10, 97 to 2010, and then the subject matter. I just want people to understand like I did not deal with woke in college.

Like I get that it was probably happening in the humanities departments. Sure. I know it was happening in the education departments and I was too busy looking down my nose at every other department regardless, because every physicist looks down at every other department, including mathematicians and every mathematician looks down at every other department, including physicists.

And the only people who look down on both math and physics are philosophers and possibly engineers who think nobody's practical. I had no exposure.. A lot of people go to college and so they know, you have to take all these classes, then you have your major, they don't know what grad school's like a lot of times, unless they've been, your entire school is your major.

There is no other class. Like, people talk to me all the time. Oh wow. When were you at ut? And I tell 'em the years and they're like, wow, did you know so and so in the history department? I'm like, that's not in the math building.

Yeah.

I literally only went to other buildings when for some reason there wasn't enough room in the math building to have the class.

Yeah.

That was a math class anyway.

Yeah.

That's the only reason I ever left the building. My entire University of Tennessee experience could really be summarized as being one building. So, I say that because it's all immersive. Woke wasn't a thing. So a lot of people think, wow, James, I get this.

I sometimes, I just don't try to correct people. It's just not worth it.

Yeah.

But people are like, James saw the woke coming early. No, I didn't. I just saw university bureaucracy is what I saw. Yeah. I saw the softening of standards to keep students in and paying tuition and I didn't wanna be a part of it.

I had the faculty meetings where they were instructing us in the classes below a certain level that are not, within a math major or a science major. Just pass people find ways, give 'em extra credit, make it easier. Do whatever you have to do. At one point they, they said that if you wanna fail more than one student, you need to be able to justify why.

Come bring evidence to the dean. And I was like,

that's no scoring little league.

Yeah, and I get it because it was like

everyone gets a trophy.

It was for the math class that only people who will do zero more math ever in anything they do. It's that class. Yeah. But it's so it doesn't, it's it's literally like the university just waving the white flag and saying, we know it's pointless to make you study math when you're not gonna do it.

But I objected to this kind of on a principled level. Like I had to learn US history, which I didn't have that much. I'm glad I learned it now, but at the time, 18, 19 years old, I'm like, I'm a physics major. Why the hell do I have to learn history? I don't wanna learn that. I had to suffer through that.

I had to do you can suck it up and pass math class kids. You're getting a college degree, right? Yeah. You can show some mathematical reasoning. You should be able to, it should need something, add fractions or something. Yeah. And so anyways, it was a bureaucracy and this. This tendency I didn't know the, what it was at the time, but it was before I started taking on the woke stuff that I realized it was that the guiding principle of the university had become student retention.

The goal was just to keep paying customers in the door, and I was. Sickened by this, and I didn't want to continue. As we were talking about before we started, my family was such that my step kids were about to start high school when I graduated, and it would've been like, Hey, kids who wants to get dragged all over the country, to go to a bunch of different high schools because I have to do postdocs.

Yeah. And nobody wants that. And that was a little bit more to tip me over the edge. So I left the university after I finished my PhD. I didn't look back. I, to this day, people sometimes ask me if I would consider being a teacher in a institution again. And I'm like, Nope. Absolutely not.

The bureaucracy's a disaster. The whole system is corrupt. I don't want, it's not corrupt in some like dirty political corruption way necessarily. It's just gross. I don't want any part of this. Yeah. Like this, if the university is not geared toward basically making like academic ninjas. Like I'm not interested like I want high level stuff here.

I think I have these controversial opinions that our society lied to our young people. Most people should not go to college. They should have done other things. It was not the guarantor of a good job. Yeah. We ended up with this. It sometimes, was it Peter Turchin? Is that his name? Who called it Elite Overproduction?

We have all these basically uppity people who got degrees who can't go work like a normal job now 'cause they're too good for that. But they're not actually skilled to fit anywhere in the economy either. The, they have a useless skill like gender studies or they have a, an oversaturated skill like veterinary medicine.

Which nothing wrong with veterinary medicine, especially if you wanna work on large animals, but currently, last I heard, vet schools are producing 11 times more vets than the economy can absorb.

Oh, wow. So

you can just imagine what the problem is there. Right. And there's all kinds of interesting conversations we could have about, should academic advising at university, should they be on the hook?

What are good ways to put them on the hook for mis advising students into bad sectors of the economy, basically. But that's a different discussion. I decided to get outta this. At any rate, yeah. So I leave the university and I had to figure out something to do. Yeah. And my wife was a massage therapist.

This is a weird story, James. You were a massage therapist from 2010 to 2020 of all things with a PhD in math. Yes. Yep. I was, and there are actually, it's like my story doesn't make any sense unless you lived it. I can say my wife was a massage therapist, which is true. And encouraged me to join the business with her and take some of her overflow and then build my own clientele and we'd have something going on and I could work, here with her in the studio or whatever.

Cool. That's a thing. But I had some lead over production there. I'm like, I have a PhD. Like what? Massage. Cool. Yeah. What?

Yeah.

But for the fact that I used to be a fighter I still can, but I used to like actually get in like rings and fight. Right? Oh, wow. I trained martial arts for a long time.

Uhhuh, I used to fight in like real competitions and things. And one day I was at, when I was in my early twenties, I was at, so, before the PhD? Yeah. I was at, the dojo or whatever training, and I hurt my back. Really bad. Like my back went all the way out as they say. Wow. And this sets up this cycle of like doomsday, you get it back, in alignment or whatever.

You start training again. Yep. You hurt it again three, four times a year.

Yeah.

Sometimes it gets in like a lot worse, whatever. So I had this long-term chronic back pain and kind of disability that actually was pulling, I was functionally able, I'm not claiming I was disabled or anything, but practicing martial arts at a high level, continuing to do competitive martial arts was out like that wasn't real anymore. And it's like I just had this stupid back pain. As it turns out, while I was doing my PhD, I happened to be out at the park, out on a walk and I ran into a guy, there's a stupid story, but he thought I was my brother.

They had gone to school together, blah, blah, blah. And he was a chiropractor Uhhuh. And he could tell by my posture that my back hurt. But he thought he was this, guy he was friends with in high school, even though it's mistaken identity by brother. We got talking. I'm like, no, I'm his brother. We hung out.

Anyway, a little bit, chatted for a bit. He's I can tell your back hurts. You want me to fix it? And he did a massage to me, not twist and crack my back. And I was like, weird. And he's you need to go buy this book. It's called the Trigger Point Therapy Workbook. By Claire and Amber Davies. It's in his third edition.

People ask me every time I tell the story, where's the book? Well, I told you the whole title. You can go look it up and it's on Amazon uhhuh and massage yourself according to where it says to poke. And you now know what it, you now know what it feels like, and I'll help you here and there if you have time, or we have time or whatever, and we'll straighten you out.

And a few months later, I'd figured it out and I'd worked out a technique and had fixed my own back. Wow. So I get outta this back pain that had been plaguing me for most of a decade. My life is vastly improved.

I have this skill, which I actually do, to family members and friends and things. No, no money involved.

'cause it is illegal. And so I already had this background in helping people and helping myself. And I had this technique that I knew was rare within the massage market because I'd been in massage therapist who couldn't do it. Yeah. And even after I learned it, there was like stuff, it's hard to reach and I'm like, can you do this?

And I'm like on the table telling the massage therapist how to massage me correctly to make the thing work. And I'm like, no, seriously, just put your elbow there and hold it no harder. And it's this is frustrating. Why don't I just take my wife's advice and do this? Mm-hmm. So I did that for 10 years.

Yeah.

And while I'm doing that, I'm academically bored. I have some free time. It is a busy job, but your fingers can only handle so much.

Mm-hmm.

So you're not like at the desk 60 hours a week or something.

Right, right.

So I start writing and getting involved in discussion forums and. Things online.

People were wrong on the internet. One thing leads to another. I learned that radical feminists are a particular branch of wrong on the internet. I start fighting with them, they're terrible. I start reading their academic literature to understand what in the heck they're talking about, because I had no idea how they can just be calling everybody a sexist and saying, misogyny is the enforcer of sexism.

What the hell does that mean?

Yeah, yeah.

And that's Kate Mann, if you wonder who that is. She's the, she wrote a book called Down Girl. No, like weird sexual undertones there about misogyny being the enforcer of systemic sexism. And I'm like, alright, so I'm reading all this and I'm finally kinda getting my head around it.

I'm friends with this guy Peter Boghossian. We've written a bunch of stuff together at this point, and some of it is literally about all this kind of woke stuff at that point, which was poisoning everything we were dealing with. Killing.

So you're publishing articles online, you mean?

Yeah, just like that's what's happening.

Time magazine, scientific Americans.

I see, Uhhuh

here and there. We had the big ambition to get into the Atlantic or the New York Times.

Oh, cool.

I think we eventually, actually he and I put out a book together later and we actually did get an essay in the New York Times as a result of it.

I forgot about that. So anyways we never got the Atlantic though, and now it's whack, so that's okay. But that. We were just doing that and everything was toxic as hell because of these feminists. And Pete worked at Portland State University, which is maybe not ground zero, but ground like 0.001 or something for woke.

It's like really close to as bad as it can get. They got rated on the top 10 worst schools for free speech. And so Pete went to the president of the university and said, did you know that we're on the top 10 list for worse schools? And the president's reply was who wrote the list? Because sometimes those are lists you want to be on.

Yeah.

Like totally politicized, Yeah, it was crazy. Yeah. And it's a civil rights group called Fire, the Foundation for Individual Rights and Education that had made the list. It's pretty unbiased in that assessment. It's just straight civil liberties. Yeah. And so anyways we decided to take this on as you intimated.

What we decided to do was write a bunch of academic hoax articles. That's called the grievance studies affair. That was my big introduction into public life.

Mm-hmm.

We wrote 21, actually, if you count the trial balloon, we wrote 20 primarily articles, journal, academic, peer reviewed journal articles for

Were you just trying to go as far as were you just gonna keep going until you were found out, or did you have this number you were trying to get to?

No, we were going to write novel papers for one year. Oh, from when we started. Okay. And then we were going to see the papers that we wrote through and then that was that. Okay. And so as the, that was the original plan,

right

Which you formula formulated in August of 2017. And so the last novel paper we wrote was in June of 2018.

Mm-hmm.

Then we stopped in June because number one, we hit 20 number two, things were getting complicated, papers were getting published. It was in the news, like stuff's happening. We're trying to keep up with literally like 14 papers or 12 papers or something, or are active at this point. It's getting to be outta control.

So we decided 20 was the number, 10 months is enough, and we stopped.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

But the goal was one year to write from August to August, come up with new ideas.. And then see them through, which can take another year, but. We ended up getting caught all of that attention. Some of the papers got, one of the papers in particular, which is the infamous one about dog humping at dog parks being an indicator for rape culture.

They're all funny as it turns out. That paper was so absurd. Eventually the Wall Street Journal started digging into it and we were caught. Basically. Yeah, it was like we had to send in. Like driver's licenses to prove that we were the fake name, that we used to write the paper.

And so we weren't gonna do that.

And so we had to just figure out how to get outta this thing, as best as possible.

So they know that they're fake, but they aren't sure who you are yet?

No, no. They thought the paper was real and then the Wall Street Journal thought the paper was fake or something's wrong like that. The identity, like nobody could find the identity of the alleged author.

Right. Right, right.

And so the academic journal in this case, which was called Gender, place and Culture, which was the leading journal in feminist geography, contacted us and said basically these right-wing trolls won't leave us alone. Please just prove your identity so we can clear this up.

Because that's their demanding proof of your identity and I'm not who you think I am.

Yeah. This isn't what you think it is.

Helen Wilson. So actually it's funny, I talked to the lady from the Wall Street Journal, her name's Jillian k Melcher. And so I got on the phone with her. I think she still writes there.

I don't know. But um. I got on the phone with her and so she hears my voice and I was like, this is Helen Wilson. And she's are you trans? I was like, no, this is a lot more interesting than that.. And off we go, having our dialogue, that thing comes out in the midst of this. So I realized this woke stuff's not stupid and it's not funny that it's actually scary.

Like I was like, the wheels are coming off the bus of society with this.

Yeah. Yeah.

In fact, I concluded that woke in the universities represented and I got in so much trouble for this phrasing. I still get in trouble for this phrasing, but I'm still gonna say it again because I stand by it.

Woke in the universities represents the seed, and I say that with emphasis, the seed. Of a genocide. And I say it with emphasis because if you say the seed of a genocide, people hear genocide. I didn't say it is a genocide. I said it is the seed, which if it finds soil and it sprouts and it's nourished and it grows and it finally bears fruit is a genocide.

It is the seed of a genocide. And

but there's no question that woke is intentionally turning people against each other. I don't think that's a,

there was in 2018.

Yeah. I don't think it's ridiculous to say that. That's where it could go., Did we not all watch Rwanda for heaven's sake.

Like we know.

Nobody believed a word of it in 2018.

That's you're intentionally turning people against each other. You're intentionally not intentionally creating contention. You're intentionally creating hate. Like you're the belief you want people to not like each other. You want people to distance themselves from others.

Like it was.

That's what I saw.

Yeah, that's what,

but the belief in 2018 was not that, the belief was this is a bunch of college people being college people and the real world will straighten 'em out. Leave it alone.. And I was like, no, it's not. This is a big, big, big problem coming. So I bravely.

The reason it can't be that is because it's coming from the leadership.

It can't be college people doing college stuff if the, if they believe that the authorities are with them. That's the difference is when if the authorities are with us, then this is legit and they'll bring it into their adult life and expect people to mold themselves to it.

Which was called the long March for the institutions.

And that's what they were doing. Yeah. And not in 2018, nobody believed that. Peter and I were considered quite wild.. I finally have this conversation with a guy, a doctor in 2019. Peter was there too. And we're talking to this guy who's fascinated by what we've been doing, and he's the first person we ever heard say, it finally hit me one day that you know, the belief that they're gonna go out into the real world and the real world's gonna straighten them out.

And it suddenly hit me, no, they're gonna go out and change the real world.

Yeah.

And that's exactly what their goal was. It's, they say their goal is. So I asked my wife in January of 2018 if I could quit my job as a massage therapist. Eventually when it got to be too much and dedicate all of my effort and resources to fighting woke by figuring the role that I selected for myself.

I'm not like. I'm not showing up to a lot of policy fights. I have been to school board meetings, but I'm not like the guy that's, I'm not running like a protest or, community organizing.. I decided that I have a skill in reading this, understanding it, making sense of it, and communicating that to people.

So I decided that I was gonna step into this, the role of Rosetta Stone for woke, and that's what I can do. I can help other people decode this. so a lot of people think that my discussions at a high level, that the podcast is hard. What I mostly do is read primary sources to people and tell 'em what they mean.. But the fact is. I always saw myself as if I'm gonna be the Rosetta Stone, I've gotta put the cookies on the fourth shelf and I've gotta put not the very top shelf, but the one right below it, and I've gotta bring a ladder. And so that's what I try to do. So I, people are like, James dumb it down.

I'm like, Nope. Your job, I bring the ladder, the cookies are there. You get the cookies, you distribute them. That's the way that I've envisioned my role. That's what I've sought to do. I think I do it well. When I try to dumb it down, I have to ask Grok for help. I'm not very good at it.

Yeah. Yeah,

Grok actually does an okay job with it, but then I take the thing grok gives me and then I edit it and make it harder again, so it's correct.

And there's just something wrong with me. The math in me, I don't know. And at any rate,

I think that the obstacle a lot of the time isn't so much that you can't explain the concepts. I think a big part of the barrier for most people is just the language. Like math is a different language.

Yeah.

It's a different language.

This is a different language.

And there's a lot of concepts and a lot of definitions and a lot of words that people just,

thousands.

Yeah, they just,

thousands

don't. And so they're, it's real. It's really, it can feel like, or sound like speaking a different language and you have to get in there and acquaint yourself with that and be able to and again, like I said, I had a little bit of a leg up maybe on other people to a point, simply because I was lucky enough to submerse myself in some of that education.

But I think that's very,

I'll give you a taste of this. That's very helpful.

And you have to use that language. You can't, not you have to use it. You have. What are you gonna do? You know?

So like in postmodernism, which you mentioned, which is a very mysterious and complicated thing. they focus on this kind of a thing called discourses. By the way, that's part of the reason I named my company New Discourses.

I didn't make that connection.

At any rate, the discourses what are discourses? Well, in general, it's how things are talked about, how people talk about things and what they're talking about, but they mean something more specific.

And I had, I'm about to do something very dangerous. I'm about to try to use words to describe a complicated picture, which never goes well. And I do not have the picture to share with you because I don't remember where I saw it. But I had watched this YouTube video some years ago, and it was describing discourses.. And it basically looked like a big, complicated mathematical graph, like a spider web graph. Okay. Except in three dimensions and big and complicated, in every dot represents a word. And every line between the dots represents how that word relates to other words. And it was all just. You know?

And it wasn't a real map of language.. It was just a pictorial representation of what, of an idea they were trying to communicate. Dog would have a line that goes to cat under the idea of that they're animals or whatever, right? So that it was like thousands of dots.

It was very complicated, spectrally looking thing.

Yeah.

And what it showed was the exact, the dots with all the lines. Then it said that set of lines is the discourses, or the discourse. That's how things are talked about. And all the things you can talk about are the words and the connections between them are the discourse.

Then the video, they got rid of those lines and kept all the same dots. And you could tell that's what they did. And then they just put new lines and they're like, that's a different discourse. So the point that I wanna make is,. When you say it's a different language, it's actually a different discourse.

They're using a lot of specialist terminology, but they're also using a lot of your regular words.

Yes.

With different connections. Yes. Between the words.

Yes.

So that when you hear the words, you don't realize they fully mean something different.

Yes. Yes. And you think you know what they mean and you actually don't.

And then when their conclusions are so confusing to you, then you feel like you're just an idiot, because why doesn't it make sense to you?

And so what the difference is, and it took me a long time to figure this out, and I can actually say it succinctly now, but what I did first, what I did to understand that language was, believe it or not, I just started writing a dictionary of it.

It's. Partly done, there's like 200 entries that I finished and like 500 that I haven't done on new discourses. I call it translations from the Wokes. And I just created in Social Justice encyclopedia where I just went through their words and tried to explain to other people what they must mean by that word.

And what I boiled down from this, first of all, it's how I really got my head around how they think was by decoding as many other words as possible. And so like in our normal use of language, the discourses are actually defined by something, which is that the words are supposed to refer to things in reality.

So the idea is that the words correspond to real things. And the relations between the words are defined by real relationships between the words.

Yeah.

That is not how they order their discourses. It took me so long to figure this out. The North Star for us is reality.

Yeah.

The North Star for them.

Is political power. So all of their words have to be understood in how they create relations of power between. them, if you have two dots that are connected, that dot that's connected, or the line that's connected them defines a power relationship.

Yeah.

In some way or another. So every single word has to somehow have an explanation that boils down to their convoluted ideas of systemic power.

And until I figured that out, it was literally, it's like trying to learn Korean where you can't read their alphabet.

Wow.

And isn't that the same reason why you make so many connections, draw so many straight lines back to Marxism for the same reason that's the same because they've got the same ultimate goal in mind.

That's, that connection, that political power is what's driving it, is what makes them all similar and what draws a line to them back to Marxism.

Yeah. That in every single possible trail of citations. the other thing that I did was I started reading this stuff, I was trying to figure out feminism, then we were trying to write the grievance papers and then I was trying to make sense of this to communicate it.

And it's like peeling an onion in a sense.. And it's just instead of reading the history of this particular branch of philosophy from the beginning and moving forward, oh, here's John Jacque Russo, and here's what Kant did with him, and here's what Hegel did with that. Now we get to Marx through Feuerbach.

Instead of that, I started on the other end, I started at the end I started in, pop articles in Cosmopolitan,

Uhhuh.

And then it's who's the feminist they referenced, what did she say? Who did she cite?. Oh, we are, now we're back to Fuko. Here's all these postmodernists.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

But somehow there's this other piece that I can't find and the citation trail gets a little bit wacky, but they all talk about Marx here and there, but they seem to be against Marx. And then somehow, actually my friend Michael Fallon, I was with him and I'm talking about, I was just postmodernism and postmodernism at the time.

Yeah.

Back in 2019. We were in a hotel together in Orlando and he said you need to read Repressive Tolerance by Herbert Marusa. And I'm like, never heard of it. Not relevant. Is it postmodern? No. Not relevant. In fact, it's critical theory, which we had been convinced by a critical theorist that understood postmodernism, who was helping us understand it at the time that critical theory wasn't relevant, which is completely wrong.

, I don't know if it was a lie or just a complete distortion. I can work out arguments for both.

Yeah.

As to how he could have made this argument, honestly. Or not. But at any rate, Mike sends me a link to repressive tolerance. I end up going to my room and just sitting there a little early in the hotel, don't have anything to do, start reading It. takes about an hour and a half to read the thing all the way top to bottom for yourself. It's not easy.

Yeah.

And I'm reading it and I'm like, holy crap. This is like everything. But then we're busy for the rest of the trip, like two, three days.. And on the flight home, I read all of it. I actually get to the bottom.

And the bottom is where he is takes the mask off. It's this is gonna require censorship and prec censorship and violence is on the table and all. I'm like, holy moly, and I was like, we live in this guy's world. This is the world they created. And all of a sudden I knew that critical theory was relevant.

And the second I knew critical theory was relevant. That's neo Marxism. Yeah. Therefore marxisms on the table. And then I had this weird humiliating moment because up to that point I had been arguing against Jordan Peterson's. Characterization of it as being postmodern neo Marxism.

And I was like, that's a lot of words. And I was against the neo-Marxist element. Then I read Marcuse and I'm like, it's neo Marxism that's using postmodern tools. It's postmodern neo Marxism

crap. You know? And it's like Jordan was right.

Mm-hmm.

And, but he wasn't getting through to me, but he was right.

So at any rate, I was able to go back and listen to Jordan again with a new set of ears and a new set of eyes and started to piece it together. But once you find them, it's a straight line to Marx.. There's no avoiding it.. And then you can start to see the marx, the postmodernists hid it better, but you can see the marx all through how they think.

And these newer people, it's all kinds of, all over the place there.

Yeah.

But they do this citation game where they won't cite the like really bad guy. They don't want you to know they worked with. They use all of his ideas, they just attribute it to somebody else who also used their ideas. There's this weird citation game.

It's like they know they're hiding their tracks sometimes.. And it takes somebody like Paulo Frady, who I, dove into heavily for education.. For me to really open my eyes and be like, this guy's sighting, like Stalin

wow.

All the way out. What's going on?

Wow.

No, these guys are just commies and, they've just changed their shirts.

It's otherwise, they're literally just communists. And now what we saw on the news the other day, just to draw a metaphor, that Xi Jinping changed his shirt back. So he took off his business suit and put on the frog collar Mao military suit for his meeting that he had with Putin and Kim Jong-un the other day.

Oh, I did not know that.

Mm-hmm. The world noticed.

Okay. Just as a sideline, as a quick question, then we'll get back to the mainline questions. This is just my own bit of curiosity. So would you say that critical race theory has developed into what we might call its own worldview? Or would you say it's like a tool set that can get layered on other approaches?

Both. Is it. It's both.

Oh, okay. Okay.

It's both, but, I thought you were gonna ask me a different question. I was anticipating your question. I was like, is it that or is it Marxism? And I'm like, but it's just derivative to Marxism., It's literally Marxism. Just reconceptualized.. But it is its own worldview, right? So you have a massive social system. I'm think of white supremacy that pervades everything that was created by white people.. And the point was, in order to elevate themselves as a race and to subjugate other people as a race, which gets. Codified by a woman named Cheryl Harris, for example, in 93, she wrote a paper called Whiteness as Property, and she explains that whiteness was established by white people for the purposes of white supremacy, et cetera, as a form of private property that only white people have or can extend to others like Irish or Germans or Jews or whoever they wish.

Yeah.

Or even to model minorities like Asians or so whatever, but never to black people and never to the fully indigenous.. Right?. And but she conceives of it actually as a form of what Karl Marxs in the Communist manifesto calls bourgeois private property. She even says that it's a form of bourgeois private property, which the Communist manifesto is abundantly clear that the he says communism can be summarized in a single sentence, abolished private property,

all private property.

After he says that by private property, he means bourgeois private property.

Yep. Yep.

By which he means capital.

Yes.

So it means your own private property that you are able to and allowed to go invest. In other words, you can take your pile of money to go make a bigger pile of money and, that's what's gotta go away., I was like,

. I was like, wow. It's just the same worldview, but instead of the evil hand of capitalism and the bourgeois values that uphold it.. We now have the evil specter of white supremacy and the, the values of whiteness, which are just western hegemonic values.

They're just literally the regular

because it's telling you what to believe and what's right and wrong and what your values need to be and how

that's right.

Life

and who the,

it's a whole

who the angels and who the demons are.

It's yes.

It's a fully, in the psychological terminology,

what the purpose of life is

a fully split world of view.. It's, there's anti-racist and there's racist. That's it. So there the people who are dedicated to a communist revolution against the racist regime that exists today. And then there are a racial communist revolution. And then there are the people who wish to preserve the status quo, who are all racists.

And so there's no in between. They explicitly tell you there's no not racist.

Yeah.

And so

Oh yeah. Oh yeah.

It's a total worldview.

Oh yeah.

But it's also a package of tools that you can pick up, which is called racial critique or racial consciousness raising that you can then use in specialized circumstances layered into other things.

And one of the things I loved that Jordan Peterson cleared up for me too, is that when you adopt one of these other worldviews too, what you're really doing is putting yourself in this position of moral superiority and you get to look down on everybody else because you have it all figured out. I loved how you laid that out in this education book in terms of, there's, the people that know and the people that don't know. It's that same kind of

Yeah, no of racist versus anti-racist,

knower versus

we're the enlightened, those not allowed to know, and you're the idiots and so we need to enlighten you and we're on top.

And postmodernism works the same way.

They're the people who assign themselves the power to define what the discourses look like, what meaning actually is. And then there are all the people who have different meanings who aren't recognized because, they're kept outside of the power structure.

It's just language games.

It's the same thing. Yeah, that's right. It's just the same pattern over and over again. It's dis just disappointingly not creative.

That's true actually.

How, this is a question for you. Yeah. How savvy with your audience can I use gnostic terminology and not lose people? Because some people might get this and some people might not.

But if it's just gonna lose everybody, there's not a lot of point in taking this little digression. It's very short though.

You could try it.

Okay, so very brief summary of gnosticism that will satisfy nobody. Gnosticism is a ancient heretical belief that the God of the creator of the world is actually a demon that's called the demi urge, which comes from the Greek degos, which means builder.

And so he's not the real God. There's a real high God behind that. So we're actually trapped in a prison in our own existence in the world that was created by a demonic force called the demi urge. And we can wake up to the truth that there's a real higher God beyond the God that everybody thinks is God, the God of this world.. Okay. So that's the idea. When you get into various schools of thought within the gnostic thinking structure, you have these kind of lesser demons, under the demi urge called Archons

Uhhuh.

Okay. So what's happened with the whole Marxist philosophy as we talked about at the Dallas workshop you came to

is that it's all socio agnostic rather than there being a spiritual realm that's split into this, high god, that's all good versus the demon that we all perceive that builds the world that we live in. It's not spiritual any longer now. It's social. So there are social high gods that we have that are beyond our access, but then there's a social demon God that's built out the systems of power that we all live within.

So each of those systems of power is like an Archon. And so systemic racism is an Archon, so critical race theory is addressing one of the Archons of the gnostic.

Mm-hmm.

That's one way to think about it.

Yeah. Could you say within that framework that it was something like

that the, the misogyny or the patriarchy. Would that be, within the framework that you're talking about? That's like an Archon that's something that's controlling us.. That's the devil. God,

that's exactly right.

Okay. So that's what you mean. So that's an establishment that we can't get outside of that's controlling us.

That's the devil.

Yeah. But the Archons are like, they're like,

and the patriarchy is controlling everything we get to do.. We have to fight it. And so CRTs our tool, so we're gonna fight this. And it's established as the reality. The patriarchy is a real thing. Like we can prove it.

Here's our proofs. Let's use this really, this really terrible, but, they say helpful tool of CRT or whatever it is mm-hmm. To fight against the Archons.

That's right. So it, yeah. It's like the demi urge overall is like. The evil builder, god of the systems of the world..

But the Archons. Are like his emissaries. Yeah. They work in specific domains. There's theon that might govern the wind and there's theon that might govern the waters or whatever else. Or that governs the human heart or whatever it happens to be. And so each of these systemic power dynamics, classism, racism, sexism, patriarchy, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, is like one of those like lesser.

Beings in this. Grand gnostic prison that we all live in.. But that's why they all act like we've been imprisoned in some world., We didn't want, we don't wanna live in, and they freak out, like their rights and freedoms are being taken away from them.

Yeah.

When the, all that's happening is literally they're not being expanded into places that are not even rights or freedoms.

It's mind blowing to listen to because when you listen for very long, not even very long you start to realize that, that, for people who are really entrenched in this. They really believe that like somebody somewhere had the skills, the ability, the resources the forward thinking enough to have intentionally built this whole thing like that.

People really did sit in their dark corners and figure out how to build this patriarchy and that it's intentionally attacking them. It's crazy. And then they, one of the things that we talk about our, Academy a lot is victim mentality., When I look at any one of these I don't know, whether you frame it as woke or critical race theory or whatever, what they're trying to do is draw everyone into that drama triangle. They wanna position the world as if it's all persecutor and victims and rescuers and they wanna position all of us as victims and be the rescuers and the whole model is broken because that whole drama doesn't work.

It, everybody wants to be the victim. Everybody's just piling on top to be the victim.. And that's why, you do that in your home, everybody's fighting. 'cause everybody wants to be the one that doesn't have to take responsibility and doesn't have to change things. And there's the big, bad whatever out there.

And to me it's like it at a very personal level, it's so dangerous because it causes people to evade personal responsibility. I feel like at its root, that's a lot of, how it deconstructs the human deconstructs the family is. When you really embrace it and you really become part of it.

You don't. You don't have to change as a person. You don't have to own your crap. You don't have to ask people, tell 'em you're sorry. You don't have to forgive 'em. You don't have to show up different, you don't have to do your job. You just get to complain.. And moan and gripe.

I'll just tell you, not to make it still weird, but this is the gnostic thing, right?

So the gnostic thing is that the idea is that we're actually perfectly spiritual beings. In fact, we're identical with God. We're not separated from this high God, but that we're all imprisoned in this material, crappy, fallen, fake world.. And so what actually enlightens you knowing your true spiritual nature as an imprisoned creature who's been flung into the world to use the Heger term for it?

Yeah.

What awakens you to that is suffering, you're suffering, that you're not expressing yourself as you truly should be, as a fully liberated being, which means a full, integrated part of God. Again, that suffering in the world, which makes you hate the world, becomes the currency. So this is why it's the same exact mentality.

Everything you just described just is exactly the results of that applied to social dynamics instead of to a high spiritual, cult. Literally a spiritual cult. Yeah. And this is why it's such a profound spiritual sickness that it causes in people is because they are enacting spiritual sickness through social means, not realizing that they're engaging in this fundamental spiritual disease. Where you've now inverted

Yeah.

The order of spirituality.. In your own

right is wrong

and glorious belief that you in fact are continuous with the most high.

That you have the answers and that you're gonna rescue the world. And

They don't get it. They have false consciousness, they think everything's real, not fallen in crappy, in an image and a,

yeah.

Mundane and not spiritual. They don't get it. You have to wake 'em up. They have to be woke.

Yeah. It's crazy. I did a YouTube channel and I used to do book reviews and one time I did a communist manifesto book review. And, my particular copy had a really nice introduction and then that introduction, he talked about what I believe to be the truth, that you can look at Marxism as a religion and that it has many of the tenets of a traditional religion.

It gives you a purpose in life. It tells you who you are. It tells you what you're supposed to devote your life to. It tells you what's right and wrong. And he says it also invokes the same kind of religious fervor, the kind of fervor and passion that has been traditionally evoked with, a God relationship.

And I got so much crap, so many people making comments. You're such an idiot. You don't have a clue what you're talking about. Why don't you study real Marxism? Why don't all this kind of stuff. I just still blown away by the fact that did, I guess some people maybe it took and it, they agreed, but I still can't believe how many people were just so averse to that, to looking at it that way.

'cause that made absolute sense to me.

Yeah. People flip out about it, but it's. The word religion has to be used with some caution here because do you consider heretical cults religions?. But they certainly get adhered to with religious fervor and under a judicial definition of religion for like establishment clause purposes.

It meets the definition, which is, by the way,

just read wild swans.. And you'll see exactly what it felt like, what the stupid meetings and the confessions and the, anyway,

that's right. So I don't think that's crazy, but I don't know where it goes. But I can't look at it other than not just as religious in its orientation, but specifically as a recreation of gnostic cults, which gets me in all kinds of trouble.

I was getting made fun on the internet for this today. I get made fun of almost every day for this.

But otherwise, why eradicate all other religions in the first place? Because you are trying to tap into the same emotions that religions are and you're competing with them, so you have to.

That's why, they're always, as soon as communism really takes hold. Anyway, that's a whole other We're getting off. Yeah.

It's a whole thing, but it's a hundred percent right.

Okay. Let me ask you a couple, that's just for my own curiosity.. Okay. So, here's a big question.

You now have been at this long enough that you have gotten a lot of grief. So my question is, why do you keep doing it?

Yeah, one does wonder that sometimes, no, actually I'm very blessed to get to hear somebody else give the answer that you knows the right answer.

So then you know what the answer is and you can just say this guy said this.. And you don't have to think of your own 'cause he said it.. And so I was at an event, I don't know if you've heard of the film that I helped produce a couple years ago called Beneath Sheep's Clothing.

I heard you mentioned it, but I've not seen it.

Yeah. It's pretty good. I'll say, it's a good film. Yeah. And I think it had a pretty good. It made a pretty good splash last year when we put it out. But this would've been about a year earlier and I was out in Utah at a fundraiser to try to raise some of the initial, production cost money for the film and which turned out to be a successful fundraiser is very good.

Nice.

But, one of the other guys who was helping, who helped organize this fundraiser and, put the event on and all this had just suffered a close family friend dying. And their funeral was that day, earlier in the same day as the event.

So we had this event planned and then somebody dies and then he has to go to a funeral in the afternoon. And then at 5:30 we have a barbecue and an event.., I mean, he is a great guy. He wasn't on his normal emotional level, is what I would phrase this as. He wasn't like wild or weird or broken down or anything.

But as you can imagine, he's got a different perspective he brings to the table.. So he stands up and he ends up having this kind of like emotional moment where he says what he wants to say about the film and why it's important. But you can tell he took what would've been like 15 minutes of remarks and shrunk it to three.

And then he was like, my friend just died and it had me thinking all day and basically, why should you support this film? The reason you should support this film is the same thing I was thinking about. And it was a little awkward, but what he said was, I was thinking, why do I do this?

Yeah.

And he is as soon as I asked myself, he's talking about how he's driving in the car back from the funeral. Why do I do this? Why am I in this fight? Why do I get up every day? And he gets his own grief, right? Why do I do this? And so he's immediately came to my mind, my kids.

Right. I do it for my kids. Yeah. 'cause they're the next generation.. And then he thought, no, it can't be that. It's too selfish. It's too small, actually.. And then he was like, I do it for everybody's kids for the whole next generation. And then he thought, no, I care about that, but I don't care enough about that.

You know?. It's it's too abstract in a way.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

And so then he is I do it for my family. And he had the same kind of roadblock. I do it for my myself. And that wasn't right. And he finally said that he, I don't remember. He had this whole progression of things.

It went on for a little bit, but then he finally says, it finally came to me. It struck me that I do this because I know in every bit of my heart that if I didn't do this. I wouldn't be able to look myself in the mirror in the morning when I wake up. Every bit of my soul tells me every single day I have to do this.

So I get asked this question a lot. Why do you put up with the trouble? Why do you put up with the fighting? Why do you put up with the doxing, the smearing, the slander, the harassment, the bullying, the every other thing, cancellations from every which way?

Yeah.

And then just keep going. And the dumb answer is, I don't know how not to, and I don't mean that in a stupid way.

Yeah.

I don't know how to live with myself if this isn't what I'm doing.

Yeah.

I could just go get like a normal job and just enjoy my life. I've got a great place to live. I, have a comfortable life. I have a great family. Like I could just move on.. And then it's no, I couldn't because every single day I am gonna think about this stuff.. Be still working out the ideas, I'm probably gonna end up doing the reading again, and then I'm gonna get pulled back into it. 'cause I gotta tell somebody about what I read holy crap. And so I do it because I have to like, and I don't know why I have to, I just have to, I couldn't live with myself if I wasn't.

And when you have that feeling, trouble coming your way doesn't matter that much. It's okay, so what? It's just part of the process, it's not fun or pleasant. Like I have better and worse moments, but at no point is there time to pack up and do something else.

Mm-hmm.

The only time that I have any doubt of that kind whatsoever is when I wonder if the work that I'm doing is effective. At which point it's not should I quit, it's. Should I completely retool and figure out how to be effective and just basically not put anything out until I figure that out. And like that's just a matter of pragmatics though. That's not a, it's not a fundamental deviation from actually doing the thing. And then I realized I've got a limited set of talents here and I've got a highly refined capacity to do what I'm doing, and I don't see it anywhere else, honestly, except in a very small places and a small number of people.

And so I better just kinda keep going and doing what I'm doing.. And, we'll see where the chips fall.

Yeah. And at this point, the more that you know the better. Resource you are, the more connections you can create for people and the more you can help them make sense of, and I know you contribute, when there's been lawsuits and other things like that.

It's not just your books and your writing and your events, but there's a lot of that. Yeah,

I've done a lot of stuff.

Yeah. Done a lot of stuff. Before we finish up, I wanna touch on something that head a little bit different direction for a minute, because. I got turned on through Locke 20 years ago.

He introduced me to the natural law. I felt cheated 'cause I never got it in school.

Mm-hmm.

And then I started making connections to, oh it's in our declaration and oh, it's been talked about forever. And so that's the lens through which I work with women, that there are things that are objectively true.

They are always true. They're true for everyone. There are things that are written on our heart. That's one way to talk about it. And the thing that you say a lot, that I quote a lot is that reality is what you bump up against when your beliefs are wrong or some variation on that theme.

And then when we were at this event, your ending presentation was a lot about what truth is and why it matters and how, we get back to that. Can you just talk just for a minute to whoever might. Be listening about why you believe that there's objective truth, and what you mean by this reality is what you bump up against when your belief is wrong.

And why? Why all of that matters. Why you, why that's part of what you champion.

It's just what the deepest philosophical question in the world. Okay, cool.

Yeah, you're welcome.

Yeah. No, why is reality, right? That's like the philosophical question.

But why do you even, we have just talked about worldviews that even reject reality.

I mean I'm saying I guess didn't used to be a choice to believe in it, but it is today. And so for you, why. Why do those things matter? Why do you talk about things in that way? What is truth to you? What is reality to you?

Sure. What I don't want to do is turn this into a long discussion about the philosophy of science, of why I think that realism is the correct philosophical position.

Realism being the belief that reality exists external to us and is objective to each of us.. A very simple explanation that doesn't satisfy everybody, but it satisfies a lot of people.. Is that, let's say that I set up a just a thought experiment. I set up a room and there's nothing in the room, but a chair and a table and something on the table.

What does something is, does not matter. Okay. And now a hundred people randomly selected from whatever walks of life you want, I don't care what walks of life.. You could even have a dog among the list to the degree that the dog is capable of doing things as a dog.

Sure.

And we put them one after another to go into the room.

And pretend they have a pad of paper and a pencil besides the object and it's write down what's on the table. And then they come out and the door's closed. Nobody can see inside. Nobody knows what was, we get the paper, we have all 100 people go, including we can even video how the dog interacts with the thing on the table.

If it doesn't, I can imagine it's set up so the dog might sniff it or whatever. Right, the thing is, every single one of them to within some range of error or tolerance would describe the same thing.

Yeah.

Right.. So they would therefore perceive the same thing?

Yeah.

And it wouldn't matter if we picked this random sample or that random sample, and it wouldn't matter if, we were using other tools like different kinds of, maybe we scan the room with light, which is photons.

Maybe we scan the room with electrons, maybe we scan the room with, protons or neutrons or any of these other kind of part. Doesn't matter how we do it, we're going to get a bunch of descriptions or whatever of the thing that all have consilience, they all line up in some way or another. And the simplest, in my opinion, explanation for how that's possible is that we actually live in a world where things are real and they're outside of our imaginations, they're outside of our heads.

We can get into complicated things like, no, we're a brain and a vat. But then you have to explain how you, your whole world is your brain and your vat. And somehow every other person who has as much will to do whatever it is that they want to or would still manages to perceive the thing the same way that you perceive it.

So it's just a lot easier to just cut the Bs as. Mr. T once said he gave, he made a series of funny videos back in the day. Him giving basic advice and one of them was Mr. T on public speaking and he's cut out the jibber jabber. Say what you got to say. That's all reality is real, is just cutting out the jibber jabber,.

It's saying what you got to say, that's all. So that does take a modicum of faith to believe that reality's real and that we're perceiving an external reality.. But because of the fact that every single external observer given a simple enough task to observe something will give conciliatory answers to one another. It's just way easier. To assume that reality's real.

Mm-hmm.

And you know this, again, without getting into a long description of the philosophy of science or even possibly why human beings have sense apparatuses and why they work the way that they do, why they have fidelity, blah, blah, blah.

All that's a fun and exciting exploration. We could go down those roads. I have things to say, but the point is, we would all basically agree on the features of reality pretty closely, which is pretty hard to explain unless it's just actually there.

Yeah.

And okay. So once we decide that reality's actually there truth becomes this.

Thing that somehow represents that which is in reality. In other words, I subscribe to what philosophers call the correspondence theory of truth. Those ideas that correspond faithfully to reality are true.

Yeah.

Does that mean that we know them accurately? No. Does it mean that our ideas are not ideas, but are actually real?

No, our ideas are still ideas, but when they accurately describe reality to a Fair enough, degree.. I talked about these things in the workshop.. I talked about the big four operational criteria by which we can judge a model of reality,. Does it have predictive power?

Does have explanatory power.

Yeah. I love that.

Is it parsimonious?. No extra assumptions, blah, blah, blah.

Yeah.

Whatever they are, because, I have to write those ones down. But. Because we can then, make a judgment about the reality and say that well, probably the thing is real.

And what is true about the thing is that, which corresponds to what, everybody, not most people, everybody would, if their sense faculties are working.. Within reasonable tolerance would conclude about it. Including even, you know, animals and other things. If I put a plant on the table and a snail in the room, you're never gonna see the snail, flying or something.

It's, if it's crawling on the plant, it's always gonna be on the plant. So it's even it's sense of touch is connected to the object really physically being there.

Yeah.

It's like, it's not just floating near it or something.. So that's just the best explanation.. So for me, truth then is what corresponds to reality.

Yeah.

With reality being something that's out there.. This also takes a drop of faith, but then it's what do you do with the fact? This is a deep philosophical question. Like I said, this is an important question in the philosophy of science.. And epistemology.. But what do you do with the fact that okay, you said the thing on the table is a plant.

Right. But you could call it a different name. You could specify what kind of plant it is. You could play this stupid game, like tree is tree in English and it's arable in Spanish. Sure. Like you could do, why does that. Word or the idea that word represents. How do you know that's what's real?

It's easier to deal with that with like fundamental particles. If you look, 'cause they're not a lot going on with them, but if you have a proton and you fire it at a thing, you can describe its behavior fantastically. You can tell exactly what it's, you can guess it's momentum. You can tell how fast it's going.

You can do all kinds of things about it, right?. You can see how it scatters and you can be very precise. You can do a lot of stuff.. Very accurately. How do you know it's actually a proton? You don't there's some object that we agree to call or phenomenon actually. Maybe physical phenomenon.

We agree to call a proton.. And it definitely exhibits these behaviors that can be explained by these properties. So that's called a model. So there's an entire school of thought. It was created by Stephen Hawking and his. A colleague, Leonard Mlodinow, and he wrote about it in a book called The Grand Design, if you wanna read it for yourself, called Model Dependent Realism.

Mm-hmm.

I had the good luck one time of running into Leonard Mlodinow himself. Ah. And the Caltech physicist, and I talked to him about model dependent realism.. And he was like why don't you explain to me what you think it is? And I explained to him what I think it is, and he is that's a better explanation than I would've given.

I think you understand it. I believe in this. This is a lot to say.. What I mean is I believe there's reality. I believe the best we can do is create models of reality. Those models have a degree of accuracy and correspondence.. And at that level, you can compare them one to the other, but it doesn't matter if the actual contents of the model are.

Literally true that a proton is literally a proton instead of some phenomenon that happens to exactly act the way the thing we describe in this model as a proton. That doesn't matter. It's irrelevant. And that's basically the idea. Okay? So once you get to that point, you can agree that reality exists.

That reality has certain principles that reality behaves in certain ways. So there's all of physical truth just falls out of that. The reality is out there, it's discernible.. It's not always easy. We can apply reason, logic, inference, deduction.. All these logical tools to try to figure out what the data are telling us.

When we do experiments, we can rule out certain explanations. We can posit other explanations out at the fringes. Like in cosmology there's 30 explanations 'cause nobody knows which one's. For sure. Yet. And they're competing with one another.

Yeah.

But what about things like moral truth level.

That's what I was gonna say. Yeah. How do you That was human experience. Yeah.

There are different ways to do this. One way is the natural law way, which is the direction I'm gonna take in away that you might not expect. The other way is the religious way, which in my opinion is fine, but also a shortcut.

Which is to say, that the law is written on every human heart.. And so in better language, honestly, what we have is general revelation to work things out in special revelation to help us do it.

Yeah.

And that's, in my opinion, a shortcut if we try to take that off the table to get the harder answer.. My answer usually starts with this very weird sentence that I end up saying to a lot of people who never seem to understand what I'm talking about. I even said it in the back of the room to a guy at the workshop in Dallas. Is that human beings are abounded set. How do I know that?

Because if we have our room that I was just describing and there's a person in the room

mm-hmm.

You're gonna know it's a person. If there's a chimpanzee in the room, instead, you wouldn't think it's a person.

Mm-hmm.

If there was a banana, you wouldn't think it's a person.. If it's a rock, you wouldn't think it's a person.

So there's only so many states in which matter, if we wanna be purely materialist about it can exist and that still be human. In other words, humanity is a bounded set.

Yeah.

Which. For whatever reasons be that evolution, be that creation, be that whatever the explanation for how we got here and how we are, whatever it is.

Yeah.

It's got ends. It only goes so far and then you're not that anymore.

There's something else. Okay. So we are some kind of a social species. We live not just in small bands, but in small bands that band together into larger bands.

Mm-hmm.

Into communities, into even nations. And beyond, we have this very complicated, in the technical word for it is ultra sociality.

We are for whatever reason, an ultra social animal that has all these different properties. We have, our own brands of, we have needs, food, water, sleep, shelter, so on.

Mm-hmm.

We have. For whatever set of reasons in our sociality, a sense of fairness. We have a desire to, do well in the world.. We have actually capacity for cooperation.. Because we have the capacity for cooperation. We have the capacity to get cheated, therefore, we develop high intelligence to make sure that we can work with each other without getting cheated by each other. There are lots of reasons to believe that if you buy the evolutionary hypothesis, that's why humans are primarily so smart.

Mm-hmm.

Was so that we can figure out how to work together and not get cheated by free riders. That would, that would basically be parasites on your tribe or your community.

Sure.

So you have to figure out what people's intentions are with what they're doing and why they're doing it, whatever that all, whatever the causes of all of that.. Maybe we're just created and that's the situation. Maybe we evolve this way, whatever the cause is.

Yeah.

That's defines a wide set of parameters.

Yeah.

By which we have to interact with each other and there are better and worse answers.. I'm not saying there are perfect answers. There are better and worse answers.. For how we're going to do that. We call that morality. Better answers are considered moral. And you can say moral in a local sense, like Islam has its set of values.

Mm-hmm.

And then Christianity has a set of values. And western liberalism. Regardless of religion has a set of values.. But at the same time, there's still the fact that human societies, you can measure how well are they flourishing.. How productive are they can, how much are they developing?

You have enough information to look back,

can they feed everybody? Do they have to kill people they don't know how to deal with?

There are some pretty basic things and then there's some pretty sophisticated and complicated things where you can measure and say. Which of these sets of values actually promotes flourishing better?

Yeah.

And I know that some people are gonna recognize that this is a spinoff of Sam Harris's argument in the moral landscape.

Mm-hmm.

Which people have accused of being kind of moral relativist. But what I think is that there might be multiple answers to what good morality is, but because humans are a bounded set, most of the right answers for most people, most of the time are going to overlap. Now, what does that mean for a culture that has completely different values and it's functioning, but maybe at a lower level?

Can you just say, take, some backwards tribe in Pakistan of, angry Muslims and transform them into liberal loving, western Christians. The answer is no, because it's really hard to change the way that people understand the world as a communist learned, you can't just change in one generation how people think about the world.

. How communities share and transmit knowledge, it has nothing to do with race, but has a ton to do with culture. Is that we share and transmit knowledge in different ways for different purposes. And tend to have very sticky cultural underpinnings that. It's like the weird conservative thing.

This is what we've done and it works and there might be something that works better, but by God, we're not messing up to find out. But the short answer is that there are moral truths because there are only so many. There might be more than one, but there are only so many good answers to these questions.

And it is very likely that there are actually optimal answers to these questions.. And I think the United States is one of these, this is what the point of my lecture was in some senses that the United States proves out that the principles of, voluntary exchange with safeguarded private property rights unlock abundance, prosperity, and wealth.

Period.. It doesn't matter who you're talking about, it doesn't matter where they're from.. This is a universal principle. So the, a value set that honors the ability to engage in voluntary exchange of secured private property. Is going to produce greater abundance, wealth and prosperity for the people who engage in it.

Mm-hmm.

And it's just a fundamental. Fact, like another fact of human nature is that at the end of the day, as communal and ultra social and whatever, highfalutin and stuff, we are, we're also self-interested.

Yes.

Like number one is still number one. And you can say I'm religious. God is number one.

We know what we, you don't have to play word games with me. We all know what, looking out for number one means.. And it means you're taking care of yourself first.. And we're all self-interested. So what this weird system we have of, voluntary exchange and secured private property.

What allows me to do is to have a self-interested motive to help a stranger. If you have, I use the example of hammers. So if you have a loose nail on your house and I don't have, I don't care. It's not my problem. You need something to drive in that nail.. If I happen to be good at buying hammers, I don't have to know you.

I don't have to care about you. I don't have to care about your wall. I don't have to care about what you're doing about, I don't care about your problem, but you'll give me $20 for a hammer and I care about $20.. So now I am investing my time and resources to create the object that you need so that you can solve your problem without even knowing you or your problem or caring about it.

So all of a sudden, self-interest becomes mutual interest.

Yes.

It solves that problem. And so this kind of a system fits with our if you're Christian, you'll say, fallen human nature, where we're looking out for number one instead of number one.

Mm-hmm.

Right? And so these are, again, I can, I did this in New Zealand, actually, this is very similar.

Talk to that portion of the presentation I gave in Dallas.

Mm-hmm.

And I had the wherewithal in New Zealand, which I did not have in Dallas. After six lectures and being exhausted, but in, New Zealand, I had the wherewithal in front of this crowd to say all these principles about basically what amounts to free enterprise.

And why they produce wealth and abundance. And at the end was like, and obviously they have this huge issue with the racial issue with the Maori and the Pacifica and all of the different peoples. And I was like, and notice that what I just said is true for every single person. I didn't have to mention that it's more true for white people or Maori people or any race.

It doesn't matter.. It doesn't matter. So the fact that there are universally true things that produce greater abundance, flourishing and so on means that there must be some. Objective moral truths. The problem is that some values are socially constructed.. Sometimes for legitimate reasons, derivative to real stuff, and sometimes for completely arbitrary reasons.

Which is why I also think a principle of free inquiry allows you to say does that tradition that we have here really work?

Or is it just something we do because we do it?. Does it really work? And that requires free inquiry. 'cause otherwise, the second you say, what about this tradition, somebody cuts your head off because now you're a threat to the tribe.

So the second you have free inquiry, what you can do is you have, one of the big four operational criteria was optimal flexibility. Was the ability to abandon a bad idea. In favor of a better idea.

Yeah.

And if you have free inquiry, you can then say I don't know about this tradition. Then you can have a debate about it with violence not on the table, and discuss what is this real?

Is this actually, is there something better we could do? Can we do an experiment and find out, kind of test both of them ab test this and see what happens? And you can start to find better solutions to ways that you deal with, building the complex problem of how do you build and run and manage a society.

Yeah.

And history in some sense is this weird collection of, uncontrolled, unregulated experiments.. And how this is done. You have countries that have all these principles and they decide they're gonna have, I don't know, a great society program instituted by President Johnson.

Everything gets worse and you say, that was a mistake. We shouldn't do that anymore.

Yeah. Yeah. Wow. That's. So well said.

In other words, human nature exists that's the short version.

Yeah. Yeah. And we ignore it or go against it at our peril. That's really like

the hard part for it is that there are genuinely places for wiggle room within human nature.

Sure.

There are perfectly acceptable different ways to cut your hair. And style your hair.

Yes.

From one culture to another, and it literally doesn't matter.

Yeah. One of the things that I love to quote is from democracy in America. In the preface Tocqueville, it's like a letter to the French.

It's Hey I've written this book for you. Here's what I want you to think about., I can't give you the whole paragraph, but basically he says the idea is, what they're doing is working pretty well. And I really think we ought to follow the American model.

And he says, but we need to follow her principles, not the specifics of her laws, basically. And that kind of speaks to what you're saying here, that there are things, there are fundamental principles that made America work. And that's what Tocqueville recognized that France needed right at, mid 18 hundreds.

That's definitely what they needed. And if they were to embrace those, but do it the French way, 'cause you can do it the French Way and that's, that's what he understood. We can still be us.

Mm-hmm.

But those are objective, human, moral, societal, governmental truths, principles, however you wanna talk about them, that will just create flourishing if we'll just get behind them it, infuse them into our systems in whatever way we possibly can.

Yeah, it's that variation or variability on themes erected off of core universal and fundamental principles is actually at the basis for why I think things in the moral universe are true beyond obviously physical truths.. Which we had to waste time because we live in postmodernity now.

So somebody has to say that reality's not real. And how do you know? And what do you mean by real? What does is mean? How are we gonna rearrange our discourses so that I win The argument is what postmodernism is really about.

And that's for me where I feel like individual expression really comes in play.

Different cultures. We can have all of that individuality and we can have, culturally or individually or whatever as a society, we can be who we are, we can be the French, we can be the whatever. But we're not gonna thrive unless we accept that there are certain proper ways to bring about human flourishing and we've gotta get behind them.

Yeah. Human nature exists.

Yeah.

Also the physical world exists, or another way to say human.

And it's crazy that we have to defend that the hundred and fifty years ago. We wouldn't even have this conversation. It would've been what are you even talking about? Why are you even defending?

That's so common sense. Yeah. Okay, last question for you.

The reason is because academics didn't defend their turf properly and now we're all living in their I know their nightmare.

I know. There's this great, you know who Robert Hutchins and Mor Adler and all of them were University of Chicago, all that stuff.. There's this really great phrase in Robert Hutchins book he's looking back on the time when he was debating Dewey and all of that stuff was going on, and he says, at the time I really thought we were doing a good job. I really thought we were making headway. I really thought we were preserving the liberal tradition.

And I realize now that I was just a stopper in the bathtub. And it's a discouraging, it's sad actually, that, and it's hard not to feel that way sometimes. It's hard not to feel discouraged about where things are and to feel so small and to feel so insignificant, especially for all of us of us that aren't nearly as brilliant as you.

I would love to end by, and I don't know if maybe you need to think about this for a minute or whatever, but what could you say? What would you choose to say? To parents today, what is there 1, 2, 3 things that, this would be my recommendation for you. Whether it be something they could read, something they could watch, something they could do.

My answer is always educate yourself. Educate yourself. That's, we've got an academy. It's encourage our women to be lifelong learners. Try to point 'em to good resources. You've, you've been in this quite a lot, you have a very deep understanding of a lot of what's happening culturally.

So what advice would you give to the parents that are listening?

Without hesitation, the first thing to say is what you're doing matters. What you are doing actually matters. Especially as parents, you're raising the next generation.. So what you do for good matters and what you do for ill matters.

Where you decide to be lazy matters. Where you decide to be diligent matters, it makes a difference. There's this principle in the Moms for Liberty group of being joyful warriors. Not that they're the only people who ever thought of it, but obviously they've made it a big part of their brand.

And the one of the founders at the time who, she's moved on now is Tiffany Justice. And she said that she's a mother, right? She's I have four kids.

Yeah.

I don't wanna be angry all the time. I don't want them to lose their mother to my political advocacy. I need to be present for them. I need to be a smile on my face.

In a good mood, I can't be angry and miserable and frustrated all the time. So what you're doing matters. Your children are watching, your community is watching, your children are watching. So how you engage matters that you are, for you guys, lifelong learners matters. And in fact, that's related to that is, Zu and Art of War says, and I don't butcher it, but the gist is if you know your enemy and you know yourself, you don't need to fear any battle. If you only know yourself, but you don't know your enemy, for every battle you win, you'll also lose one. And then he says, if neither your enemy nor yourself. Then he basically says, you're gonna succumb in every battle.

You're gonna get your butt handed to you, right?. Lifelong learning, I think is actually key, but let's focus it. You need to know your enemy. And you need to know yourself. So what's your enemy? This the stuff that's coming in trying to disturb your way of life, and what is your self, it's your way of life.

So that means, who are we as a people that you know, politically, culturally, economically. You have to know those foundations. You have to, teach your children, those foundations. You have to increase in your understanding by teaching your children those foundations and engaging in them.

Who are we spiritually? If you're a person of faith, that's very important part of who you are and a very important part of who you're teaching your children to be.. The raising, educating, and discipling of children are the three kind of things that are usually brought up as the core functions of parents.

And so you need to be engaged in that, but that means you need to understand it. So, if you want to be on the. Avant garde of making a difference. You need to know who you are.. Politically, economically, socially. You need to understand the tenets of your country, the tenets of your faith.

The tenets of the long tradition in which of prosperity that we're all embedded. There's a lot to know about yourself that we've been able to take on cruise control for a lot of time. A lot of homeschool parents are not, but other parents, a lot of everybody is just taking it on cruise control.

Yeah. So there's a lot of fun stuff to do and know yourself and then knowing your enemy, like it depends on how you want to engage in the battle. Right. You have to prepare your kids for the road that they're going to walk one way or the other.. You can't go out and change the road.

Not much. You can change it a little, like your advocacy does matter. It can make a difference, but for the most part, you've gotta prepare your kids to walk the road. They're in this. Like we were just laughing about we live in this stupid postmodern world where these stupid arguments about what words mean, and if reality's real come up where everything's like race and gender all the time.

Yeah,

I know. You don't wanna engage with, that's not part of you want your kids to have a normal childhood. Sorry, that ship sailed. You have to engage them. We're very fortunate you could say, I just want my kid to have a normal childhood. Let's go back 400 years.

And I think there shouldn't be famines. No. You have to teach your kids to be ready for the famine when it comes. And it turns out right now what you have to teach your kids to be ready for is political warfare and brainwashing. Unfortunately.. But at least they're not as likely. Who knows what could happen if it goes bad to have to weather a famine, right?

So you have to prepare your kids for the road, which means you also have to learn. if All you wanna do is just tend to your own garden, your own children. You still have to learn some of the stuff.. But if you want to engage in advocacy, if you want to try to go be a part of a group that's making a difference, if you want to get involved at the local level in politics or just if you just want to have even like a Bible study that's culturally informed or a civics study,. It's, imagine the exact same thing as a Bible study, except you're doing like the Declaration of Independence.. PS by the way, a lot of people are surprised when they hear this. You can do that. It's allowed, right? It's like the idea of getting together and studying

called the book club goes all the way back to Benjamin Franklin.

Change the world with the book club..

All of that stuff. You have to enrich and understand if you wanna do that well, you have to be able to enrich and understand in comparison to the world that we actually live in.

Yeah. Which means unfortunately, you gotta learn some woke crap. So I, as you said educate. So you know, you matter. You need to get educated. A lot of kind of broad principles, like the goal of this thing is to make you despair, to make you want to quit. How do you not, you can't.

So how do you do? You can't quit for your kids, let 'em watch you quit. Yeah. That's great, mom.. So what do you do? Whether it's faith in your religious faith in God, whether it's faith in your country, whether it's faith in, just the principles that your family or the tradition.

Like you need that and you need to renew it, and you need to intentionally take measures to renew that. In other words, it's keep yourself healthy so that you can mentally, emotionally,. Physically, spiritually.. So that you can nourish others.. Is a really big thing.. There, there's lots more stuff, that could be said. I literally, I think I told you before we started, I am literally writing a book about this and there's 70 things. Oh, excited. And I don't wanna just start rattling them all off.

Mm-hmm.

And I could tell you the title, but I don't have one yet, so I don't know what the title of the book is.. I can't tease you with it enough. We haven't got that far.. We're just gonna write it first.. And there's principles in there love the truth, always do the right thing, even when there's consequences actually. Especially when there's consequences,

I also have very practical advice if you wanna be useful in the public policy or community. In that legalist way, learn to read legislation.

Yeah.

Learn to read woke, like we said, it's another language, another set of discourses.. You can't peel apart the document your kid's school sent home, unless you can read for keywords and buzzwords and decode what they mean.

So learn to read it and do the reading. But yeah, mostly my advice is just general and generic. Your kids are number one, you need to take care of them, and you need to remember that what you do matters. It doesn't matter how small you are.. Right. So I give this, talk.

Sometimes it's this really inspiring thing I say, people cry. It's exciting. So nobody is gonna crying. But one of my favorite scenes, and this is dorky, but one of my favorite scenes in Lord are the rings. Is when the tree people just went and, spoilers are coming. So the tree people just got really mad and went and destroyed the evil fortress of Orthanc.

. Right. And Isengard. So they couldn't destroy Orthanc actually, but they destroyed Isengard. So the tree people just did their thing. And then the wizard Gandalf is explaining what happened. And what happened was that these two hobbit characters, Merry and Pippin get captured by the bad orcs and dragged off and they escape into the forest in a dramatic scene.

And then they meet the tree people and they tell the tree people what's going on in the world. The tree people get pissed off and they go to destroy this thing. And so Gandalf's trying to relate this to other people and he says, I, in his very Gandalf way, I think the coming of Merry and Pippin to Fangorn Forest was like the loosening of two stones that fell in avalanche.

Wow.

And so I tell people, you don't have to be Gandalf. You can be just somebody who's kicked a small stone that hits another stone that the next thing you know, the side of the mountain's coming down. And I could probably sit here and different times, different talks. I come up with different people and I just start rattling off everyday normal people.

People whose names I don't even know in a lot of cases, who were the catalysts that triggered somebody to get involved, who became a really big deal, who made a gigantic difference. So even if you don't end up being the guy going to do the thing, or the mom going to, change the world, that conversation that you have at lunch might put an idea in somebody's head.

I give an example, I use a lot here is Billboard Chris. And everybody thinks, okay, so he was just a dad and now he does this thing in worldwide activism. He's made a huge dent in the gender ideology and transgender thing. Helped parents all over the world, but it's not billboard. Chris, who's the small stone billboard, Chris was at lunch with somebody who told him about puberty blockers, which he had never heard about before.. So somebody just had the courage or the gall or whatever to mention puberty blockers in Vancouver in front. I think in Vancouver, that's where he lives. In front of Chris. Chris is shocked by these two words next to each other, goes home, looks 'em up, finds out what they are, freaks out, starts his advocacy.

So the person, the unnamed person who happened to just be talking and mention that started an avalanche.

Yeah.

That's being a small stone. And I can't encourage you to realize how important that is. The bottom line there is that you, you need to be telling the truth as much as you can all the time.

. 'Cause when you tell the truth, you put truth into the world. And you don't know what that truth is gonna go do now that it's loose in the world.. And a truth, as I said in Dallas has the power to level any error. That it touches. That's the power of a truth. The example I gave is a very fun example where, imagine we have three really smart people in the room up on the stage, and we say, how wide is the room?

And they all give their guesses and they argue and one, different guesses and why they're Right. And their big important philosophers or whatever.. And all their argument doesn't get us any closer to the truth until the janitor walks in the back with a tape measure and then all of a sudden their reputations are on the line because they've all just made an ass of themselves defending their answer that's about to get showed out by the least of these pulling the tape measure and seeing how big the room really is.. Because the fact is it doesn't matter who they are. It doesn't matter what their state or stature is. It doesn't matter how much of an expert or how wholly or how politically important or how fantastic they are, how nice a guy they are, how good an arguer they are, how many people in the room they convinced by consensus that they're right.

It doesn't matter any of that. Once the actual measurement comes, once the truth shows up. Everybody who's right is vindicated and everybody who's wrong is shown to be an error.

And so when you put a truth out into the world about anything, you don't know where that truth's gonna go. It might not go far.

If you put 10,000 truths in the world, one of 'em might make it a pretty good distance.. And that truth will eventually through somebody else or through you or whatever, encounter an error that it levels and now you've cleaned up some error in the world.. So tell normal people and parents, especially a lot, to realize that it doesn't matter if you think you're just a regular mom or just small character and you're never gonna play a big role.

It's like you don't have to. And in fact, nobody's too small.

To make a difference.. Just. What do you do? You take care of your kids, you raise 'em. You tell the truth. You get involved where you can,. Just very basic stuff and it actually adds up. That's the idea of the American principle of self-governance.

If we're all taking care of our own stuff and taking care in a way where it ends up bleeding over through trade or exchange with our neighbors, then everything rises.

Yeah. That's beautiful.

It's the same principle.

Yeah. That's beautiful. So well said. There's something I was thinking about that came from you and a few other sources, and I started to understand over the last couple years that it really hit me that we are all responsible for our culture.

Our culture is creating the future, and what you're saying is that every single person that adds positively to that culture nurtures it. We're either nurturing a good culture or a bad culture. We're either paving the way for things to be better or for things to be worse. And, that's another reason why every single person matters, because they're part of the greater culture and they're responsible to it to try to nurture it, try to make it healthier.

And that's why it's so important that wherever you stand.

That's right. And

You just stand for whatever that is, even when it seems so tiny because you know what's right. And so you stand there and then there's enough of a standing and before you know it, the culture isn't quite as sick as. It was

That's right. And your kids are watching.

Yes. And what you do matters way more than what you say. So walk the walk.

Yeah. They'll notice a mismatch. Yep. They're smarter than they let on.

Yep. Yep. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much for being here. I've learned a lot again from you, learn from you every time I interact.

I'm so grateful for all the things that you shared with our audience that can go out and bless their lives. Hope everyone will pay attention to especially your newest book coming out that we don't know when it'll come out, but it'll be for us. And so we're excited. And anything else catch James at new discourses.

I think it's just new discourses.com, isn't it?

Yep.

And all kinds of resources. You're letting out podcasts, like just all the time and so many, the books and I don't know what other events you do, but. Check him out and we'll leave a bunch of links. Is there anything else? Is there other ways that I haven't mentioned that people can find you or engage with you or learn from you?

The people that wanna find me on social media it's a bit of a wild ride. I'm a wild creature on social media, but I got described as a talk one time as a knife fighter on social media...

Do you wanna watch the fight?

I try to be good, but. I'm

lose your patience sometimes?.

I have. No, not so much patience. I just, I have boundaries and, I will give as I get.. And I know that the biblical thing is, do not answer evil with evil, but bless. But man, there is nothing in there that says, do not answer a smart ass with something. Smart ass.. And so unfortunately it's a little wild.

It's not for everybody's taste, I hope it's for yours. But I am at Conceptual James, which is also a spelling test, by the way.. And I'm everywhere except Facebook. You can't find me on Facebook.. Facebook banned me for life and has not un banned me.. And I didn't like it anyway, so that was great.. I celebrated the day they kicked me off.

Okay. So at Conceptual James, we will link that as well. We'll link the website and the podcast and all the other resources. But it's been such a pleasure, such a treat. I just can't thank you enough. And thanks everyone for listening. We will see you next time.

Get Your 3 FREE Chapters of the Audiobook version of The Mission Driven Life: Discover and Fulfill Your Unique Contribution to the World: https://www.themissiondrivenmom.com/

The first in a series of upcoming podcasts answering questions “All About Life Mission,” this first installment begins at the beginning.

If you’ve ever wondered what life mission is, this podcast gives you a perspective you may have never considered. Once you understand life mission in this way, it will be so much easier to see why life mission is so transformational—for you, for your family, for your community and beyond!

Stay tuned for upcoming episodes answering more life mission questions such as:

    1.    How does mission driven living work?
    2.    Who are mission driven people?
    3.    How can life mission help me solve my persistent problems?
    4.    Does everyone have a life mission?
    5.    Is life mission the same as life purpose?
    6.    How can life mission help my family?

And many more…

_____________________

Podcast Transcript (AI generated)

Welcome back to the podcast. I'm Audrey Rindlisbacher, the founder of the Mission Driven Mom and the author of The Mission Driven Life. If you haven’t yet, head over to themissiondrivenmom.com to get your free copy of the first three chapters of The Mission Driven Life: Discover and Fulfill Your Unique Contribution to the World.

Make sure to grab those chapters, which will introduce you to the Seven Laws of Life Mission. They provide the backstory of the book and guide you on how to live a more mission-driven life, fulfilling your unique contribution to the world. Thank you for joining me today. 😊

If you're new to the podcast, consider going back to the beginning. In addition to listening to recent episodes, explore our series on the seven laws and various mission-driven stories. This will give you a comprehensive understanding of what we discuss and how it relates to principles and those seven laws.

Today, we’ll talk a bit about what life mission is. I want to do a series of episodes addressing the various questions we receive at the Mission Driven Mom about Life Mission. We’ve noted down many of them, and you can look forward to these episodes in the weeks and months ahead, answering your questions about life mission—why it matters, how to discover it, what the seven laws are, and more.

Let's begin at the beginning and discuss what Life Mission is. The best way to describe this to you is to imagine you live in a kingdom with the best king you can imagine. He is attentive, knows and loves his people, does what’s right and just, and always seeks improvement for his kingdom.

You, living in this kingdom, feel like an average person with limited resources and unclear talents. Yet, you hold a desire to be useful. You love this king and wish to help him in any way possible. Despite feeling you have little to offer, you approach the king with a willing heart, ready to do whatever he asks because you trust him completely and know he loves the people.

What would this good king do if someone approached him with such willingness? He would accept their help, regardless of self-perceived limitations, finding a role for them. Whether it’s delivering messages, taking dictation, or something else, he would use their abilities.

Moreover, seeing this eagerness and willingness, the king would help them grow and develop to be even more useful. Starting with something small, he would match their abilities with the kingdom's needs, gradually increasing responsibilities as trust and capability grow.

This dynamic allows both the king and the subject to thrive. The king accomplishes tasks with willing participants, and the subjects develop through their missions, understanding the bigger picture that only the king sees.

When embarking on any task, even the smallest, the king ensures you are prepared and equipped with everything needed—be it keys, seals, or messages. You may not receive everything right away, but with trust, you will find what you need along the way. 🌟

As you perform tasks with dedication, you grow closer to the king, gaining more responsibilities and developing a deeper relationship rooted in mutual trust. You discover your potential and talents, which the king helps to nurture for greater challenges.

This partnership with the king, who knows the realm’s needs, enriches your life with meaning and purpose. You become more like him, surrounded by others who share your dedication to making the world better. Together, you avoid self-doubt and embrace growth, focusing on improving yourself, your family, and your community with God’s guidance.

Life Mission is about recognizing God as the ultimate authority, allowing him to guide you in his plan, and understanding that your willingness and trust are what truly matter. In this partnership, you rise to your potential, discovering more about yourself and achieving more than you ever could alone.

Sometimes, people struggle with the concept of Life Mission, thinking it might feel mundane or inconsequential. However, as C.S. Lewis noted, even after his conversion, his life looked much the same, but now he did everything to the glory of God, changing everything.

Now, with God’s guidance, you have a roadmap—the Seven Laws of Life Mission—to prepare yourself and partner with him. These laws, practiced by great men and women, show us how to live a mission-driven life, enriching our lives and those we serve.

In essence, Life Mission is an errand given by God to serve others, representing him and striving to act as he would. Through this service, we and those we serve grow, enriching our lives deeply.

It's important to know what Life Mission is not. It’s not self-serving or deceptive, but rather a true submission to God and truth. It’s not about accolades but about making a genuine contribution, trusting the king’s vision, and understanding that mission outcomes exceed expectations.

As Dr. Frankl explained, don’t aim at success. Instead, dedicate yourself to a cause greater than yourself, allowing success to ensue naturally.

The pursuit of success or happiness is not direct. Instead, these come as byproducts of dedicating oneself to a cause greater than oneself. The same principle applies to Life Mission. It's not something to be directly pursued, but something that naturally unfolds as you prepare and submit to the Seven Laws of Life Mission, aligning yourself with God's plan.

By embracing the Seven Laws—loving God, loving yourself, loving truth, and loving humanity—you create a foundation for a mission-driven life. You become attuned to the callings already present in your life, recognizing that roles such as a parent or a leader at work are parts of your Life Mission. The key is to approach these roles with the mindset of service, letting God guide your actions. 🙏

Life Mission isn't restricted to a particular type of work. It is defined by the spirit in which you perform your work and who it is done for. By allowing God to lead, you transform everyday tasks into meaningful contributions, enriching not only your life but also the lives of those around you.

Here's a brief summary of what Life Mission is not:

Ultimately, true Life Mission requires submission to God and a willingness to embrace his guidance, trusting that the tasks he gives—no matter how small—serve a greater purpose. Through this, you discover your potential and contribute meaningfully to the world.

At the Mission Driven Mom, we believe in this transformative process. We've witnessed over 600 women complete Level 1, with many continuing through the program to graduation. These women are now making a positive impact in the world, using their gifts and talents guided by a higher purpose.

Thank you so much for joining me today. I hope this insight into Life Mission inspires you to explore your unique contributions. I look forward to seeing you next time!

Get your FREE Audiobook copy of The Mission Driven Life: Discover and Fulfill Your Unique Contribution to the World: https://www.themissiondrivenmom.com/

If you've spent much time in the self-help world, you know that pretty much everyone says that what you need to do if you want to be successful is to write affirmations. Yet, the practical application of that --when you really try to write and use affirmations in your real life--often does not work at all. 

In fact, in many cases, using affirmations can actually make things worse!

In this episode, Audrey explains why affirmations don't work, and exactly how they can lower your self-image and increase your discouragement...sometimes leading to giving up altogether.

That's why Audrey offers you the BEST alternative possible--a tool that actually works, gives you confidence, increases your motivation, and inspires you to change!

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PODCAST TRANSCRIPT (AI Generated)

Welcome back to the Mission Driven Mom podcast. I’m Audrey Rindlisbacher, author of The Mission Driven Life and founder of the Mission Driven Mom.

Today I want to explain why you do not want to use affirmations. I know everybody is saying they’re a great idea. Maybe you’ve tried them yourself, or maybe you know someone who feels like they’ve had a little bit of success with them. But in reality, affirmations often make things worse—and there are very important reasons why that’s the case.

Instead of affirmations, I’m going to share a skill you can use instead—something that’s powerful, practical, and easy to learn. In the Mission Driven Mom Academy, we dive deep into this skill. We run workshops, practice together, and study reading selections that help you really develop the habit and get good at it. But even just listening today, you’ll be able to understand the basics and start using it.

So let’s begin by talking about why affirmations aren’t helpful.

Imagine for a moment that you’re not at the weight you want to be. You want to be thinner, fitter, and healthier. So you decide to try affirmations. Everyone says you should write down your goal in the present tense—as if it’s already true. So you write something like: I am fit. I am healthy. I am thin.

But here’s the problem. Robert Fritz put it perfectly: “Affirmations are automatic compensations for inadequacies you suspect you have.”

In other words, the very reason you’re writing the affirmation is because you already believe you’re inadequate in that area. You think something’s wrong with you, and the affirmation is supposed to help convince you that you can be different. On the surface, that sounds positive—you want to believe you can change. But in reality, affirmations don’t create a “better self.”

And this is one of the big reasons self-help strategies often fall short. Affirmations don’t actually work the way people think they do.

Here’s what really happens. When you repeat an affirmation like, I am thin. I am fit, your brain immediately knows it isn’t true. It recognizes the lie. You aren’t thin and fit right now. You aren’t rich right now. You don’t have the perfect marriage right now. Whatever it is you’re affirming, your mind knows it’s false.

So what gets triggered? A constant reminder of the opposite. If you need to say, I am thin, your brain says, Well, clearly I’m not—that’s why I need the affirmation in the first place. If you need to say, I am rich, your brain says, No, I’m poor—that’s why I’m repeating this.

Inadvertently, affirmations reinforce the exact inadequacies you’re trying to overcome. Every day you tell yourself, I am this thing, while your brain responds, No, you’re not. And over time, instead of building confidence, you actually feel worse about yourself.

Two, three, four weeks into repeating affirmations, you’re still not thin, healthy, or fit. You’ve been lying to yourself, and the gap between where you are and where you want to be just keeps growing. That gap compounds day by day, and the worse you feel about yourself, the more like a failure you seem to become.

This is why affirmations so often backfire. People will try them, maybe even create a vision board with pictures of the person they want to be—but all it really does is remind them of what they’re not.

Then what happens? People try to follow a workout plan or some kind of system, but as time goes by, they feel worse about themselves. A month passes, and they’re still not healthy, fit, or thin. So they give up. They throw their hands in the air and say, Forget it. It’s never going to work. I can’t do it.

And that’s the sad part. Essentially, what they’ve done is spend a month affirming to themselves that they are not that thing. Sure enough, they’re not—and telling themselves that they are hasn’t changed anything. So they give up. Sometimes they give up altogether—not just on affirmations, but on the goal itself. They stop even trying to be healthy, fit, or whatever it was they wanted to become.

Robert Fritz explains that this “compensation tactic” of using affirmations only reinforces the gap between your desired ideal and your current reality. And here’s why: goals already create tension.

That’s what makes personal growth so hard. You have to hold the tension between who you are right now and who you want to become. And when you set a goal, that difference becomes even more obvious. The gap feels starker, more uncomfortable. Then, if you add affirmations on top of that—I am this thing right now—your brain knows it’s not true, and the tension only grows stronger.

Now, some people will argue, Well, if you keep saying it, eventually you’ll brainwash yourself. Your brain will start to believe it, and then you’ll figure out how to accomplish it. And sure, there are cases where people persevere and eventually reach their goal. I’m not saying affirmations have never worked for anyone. But for most people, most of the time, if you’ve tried it at all, you know the truth: nothing really changes, and often you just end up feeling worse.

Fritz also points out that motivation tells the whole story. Here you have a person who feels inadequate—not good enough, not organized enough, not rich enough—and is trying to prove to themselves that they’re the opposite. But deep down, they still feel inadequate.

And think about it: what does it even mean to say, I am thin, fit, and healthy? How do you measure that? How do you know when you’ve arrived? Every day the affirmation just reminds you again that you’re not there yet.

Even worse, as Fritz observes, a weak self-image often leads to harsh self-criticism. Instead of lifting yourself up, you put more pressure on yourself. You criticize yourself more intensely.

Now, let me tell you—this is something I’ve seen again and again in the hundreds of women I’ve worked with. Many of them believe that if they stop focusing on their weaknesses, they won’t be able to change. I’ve had countless women say to me, If I don’t think about what’s wrong with me, how will I ever improve?

But in the Academy, we take a completely different approach. Our entire framework is built on strengths. That’s why, in Level One, we have you take six, seven, sometimes eight different assessments and evaluations—because we want you to have supreme knowledge of yourself. We want you to see how amazing you are.

When you begin working from a perspective of strength—believing in your gifts and leaning into them—you naturally start to grow. And as you engage in real work—whether in yourself, your home, or your community—your weaknesses will show up. Of course they will. But now, you’ll have the motivation to deal with them. You’ll either learn new skills, seek help, or partner with others whose strengths complement your weaknesses.

And here’s the difference: it all comes from a place of confidence and self-knowledge. That’s why weaknesses don’t shut you down anymore. Instead of stopping you, they become opportunities to stretch, collaborate, and grow.

I can’t tell you how many women have told me, If I don’t focus on what’s wrong with me, I’ll never get better. And I always say—it’s just not true. If you live and work from your strengths, your weaknesses will reveal themselves naturally. And when they do, you’ll have more motivation than ever to address them and keep moving forward.

When you know that you’re awesome…when you know your strengths are needed…when you know you’re making a difference and that what you’re doing is working—then you can figure things out. You can go out and get the education you need, the skills, the tools, the principles that will help you get stronger in those weaker areas.

But when you start from a place of weakness, it damages how you feel about yourself. You’re already feeling inadequate, and then you layer affirmations on top—reminding yourself every day of what you’re not. That’s a recipe for disaster. Of course you’re going to feel like a failure.

I was at an event recently where we were asked to write little bios for a networking app. A young attorney—married, with a couple of beautiful kids—reached out to me. He had read just a few sentences on our website describing common pain points and desires. He said, You’ve described my wife to a T. He told me, She loves our children, she loves me, she loves God. We have a good marriage. And yet…she doesn’t even want to get out of bed in the morning.

My heart just broke for her. I thought, I get it. I’ve been there. And most likely, she’s telling herself all day long about the ways she’s not good enough, the ways she’s not showing up. She doesn’t realize how brilliant she is. She doesn’t know how to solve problems with principles. She hasn’t identified her strengths through assessments. She hasn’t used even one of the dozen powerful tools I discovered over years of study—tools I built into the Academy to help women heal and grow.

So many women believe the way forward is to focus on their weaknesses. Then they try affirmations, and end up feeling even worse. They think, Everyone says this should work. What’s wrong with me? Why can’t I just set a goal, do my affirmations, and have it all come together?

But I’m here to say: No. That’s the wrong lens.

You need a completely different approach—a lens of strengths and principles. The truth is, there’s nothing wrong with you. You are not broken. You’ve just been given the wrong information. You’ve never been shown how principles can help you, how truth can set you free, or how working from your strengths can actually create lasting growth. That’s what we do at the Mission Driven Mom.

Robert Fritz explains that once affirmations fail, people often turn on themselves. He says the purpose of this self-attack is “deterrence”—the hope that, with enough warning and self-incrimination, you’ll be more careful about living up to your ideal next time.

Sound familiar? Women tell me this all the time. I shouldn’t be so hard on myself, they say. But then they beat themselves up anyway. I did it for years, so I know exactly how it feels. You’re trying everything people say will work, but it doesn’t—and now you’re criticizing yourself for criticizing yourself.

And it often gets worse when you seek outside help. Maybe you hire a life coach, go to therapy, or sign up for an online course. One of my students told me she had tried all of that—therapy, books, online programs. None of it worked. It was only through the Mission Driven Mom Academy—learning empowering principles, identifying her strengths, leading herself, and deepening her relationship with God—that she finally healed from childhood trauma. Today she feels grounded, fulfilled, purposeful, and confident.

Why? Because the other tools weren’t addressing the real issue. Affirmations, self-admonishment, even well-meaning “help” can all reinforce the same painful cycle: I’m not who I want to be. I try to change. I feel worse. Now I’m even more convinced I’m broken.

Robert Fritz says it this way: The more help the person gets, the less likely they are to be helped—because the help often reinforces the original conflict. Instead of closing the gap between who you are and who you want to be, it widens it. Every attempt to fix it only deepens the discouragement.

And that’s why I’m urging you to stay away from affirmations. They can actually make things worse. I’d hate for you to pour your heart into them, only to end up more discouraged than when you began.

So really, honestly, mothers and women—you should not be doing affirmations. You should be doing something else instead. Because otherwise, you end up on this helpless, hopeless hamster wheel. You’re running and running, trying to be your best, trying to do good, trying to find the help and answers you need. You’re trying to believe you’re good enough, trying to be confident—yet you never seem to arrive.

And the longer this goes on, the more you feel like you’re failing. You aren’t reaching your ideals—ideals that may not even be realistic in the first place. So you start to feel like a failure in your own life, and the discouragement and depression just deepen. It’s a lose-lose-lose situation.

But here’s the truth: you are so much better than this. Your life can be so different.

I promised you that every week on this podcast we would explore the Seven Laws of Life Mission:

And today, we’re diving deeply into the foundation: loving God and loving yourself.

Caring for yourself properly is one of the most misunderstood concepts in the world today. I could spend all day talking about how people get it wrong. And I know that’s true, because we’ve helped hundreds of women transform their lives through the Mission Driven Mom. Our program changes you from the inside out, because it gives you a new lens for seeing yourself and the world. Once that lens is in place, you can never go back to the way you used to see things.

So let’s talk about some principles of self-care—the principles underneath the law of loving yourself—and what they have to do with affirmations.

Here’s the first one: you and I believe what we tell ourselves.

I’ve shared this story many times, but let me briefly tell it again in case you haven’t heard it. Years ago, I was struggling in many areas of life—my marriage, my home, even my health and finances. Then I was introduced to classical liberal education. I studied the greats. I learned about natural law and first principles. And I started searching for the principles that could set me free.

Each step of the way, I applied those principles, and they changed me. That doesn’t mean my problems magically disappeared. But I became different. I showed up differently. And that meant the problems no longer stopped my growth.

During that time, I attended a women’s class. The teacher randomly handed out roses to a dozen women. Then she asked those women to come up, place their rose in a vase at the front of the room, and share one good thing about themselves.

One by one, women went up. And one by one, they said something self-deprecating. I’m good at eating chocolate. I’m good at sleeping in. I’m good at yelling at my kids. I’m good at having a messy house. Out of twelve women, only the very last one said anything remotely kind about herself.

At first, people chuckled. But by the end, my heart was broken. I couldn’t believe that these women—women I knew to be incredible, amazing human beings—would speak that way about themselves.

And here’s why it hit me so hard: we believe what we tell ourselves. What we say about ourselves, about others, about the world—over time, it sinks in. It becomes part of what we believe.

The problem with affirmations is that they’re lies we’re trying to convince ourselves are true. That creates incongruity. It sets up a mental battle, a war within ourselves. It’s unpleasant. It’s discouraging. And it doesn’t work.

And when we talk this way to others—when we repeat self-deprecating lines out loud—we just reinforce the negative image and feel worse.

So here’s another principle I want you to understand before I give you a powerful tool that will change everything. At first, this tool may seem subtle. You may think, Well, isn’t that just like affirmations? But I promise—it is night-and-day different. And the results it produces are radically different.

The second principle is this: our negative feelings and thoughts are not caused by our circumstances. They’re caused by what we tell ourselves about our circumstances.

That’s such a key truth. When we understand that what we tell ourselves tends to become what we believe—unless it’s a lie, in which case we end up at war with ourselves—then we can see how powerful our self-talk really is. Our feelings don’t come from the outside world; they come from the way we interpret and describe our world to ourselves.

So if you’re having a lot of feelings you don’t want—stress, discouragement, frustration—those feelings are being caused by your thoughts and words. Most people don’t make this connection. They go out into the world, complain about their circumstances, talk badly about themselves, and then wonder why they don’t feel happy or excited for life.

The problem is, it feels so real. The dishes aren’t done. Your husband was rude last night. Your kids aren’t listening. Those may be facts, but they’re not the whole truth.

This brings me to the tool I want to share with you today: Telling Yourself the Truth.

It’s so powerful. Even when there are undeniable facts in your life, you may think you’re simply “telling the truth” when you talk about them. But often you’re only telling half-truths. You’re stuck in the facts without seeing the bigger reality. That’s why affirmations fail—they’re lies dressed up as truth. But half-truths also fail, because they limit you.

The truth—whole truth—always liberates. It always sets you free.

So what you need to do is start telling yourself the whole truth.

Before I share some examples, let me pause for just a moment. If this concept is resonating with you—if you want real mentoring, practice, and accountability to master this skill—consider joining our Academy. That’s where we do deep dives into principles like this one.

And if you’re enjoying the podcast, please take a minute to leave a review, subscribe, and share it with a friend. That helps others find us, and it helps us grow. If you’re new here, you can also go back and listen from the beginning. We’ve reordered episodes so you can walk through the Seven Laws of Life Mission step by step, hear inspiring mission-driven stories, and get grounded in the principles that will set you free.

Okay—back to truth-telling.

Here’s an example I know many women can relate to: being overweight.

Example 1: Weight

An affirmation might sound like this: I’m thin, healthy, and fit. But immediately, your brain rejects it. Because your brain wants to believe you. It wants to trust that you’re an honest, integrous person. And when you say something that clearly isn’t true, your brain fights back: No you’re not. That inner war creates resistance and discouragement.

Truth statements, however, feel completely different. When you tell yourself the truth, your brain relaxes. It agrees. It gets on board. And natural motivation follows.

Here are some truth statements you could say if you genuinely feel overweight but want to be healthy and fit:

Do you hear the difference? Every single one of those is true. And because they’re true, your brain says, Yes—that’s right. And as you repeat them, they empower you. They excite you. They point you toward what’s possible.

That’s the power of telling yourself the truth.

It doesn’t speak to what is not. It speaks to what can be. That moves you forward and motivates you to take action. You might start with something as simple as: “I can learn what it means to have a healthy body. I can do that. I’m going to start today. And God will help me.”

Pretty soon, you’re engaging with ideas and materials that inspire you. Notice, too, that the affirmation “I am thin, healthy, and fit” has no action attached. It communicates nothing.

At The Mission-Driven Mom, we teach what we call actionable principles—truths that are true for everyone, all the time, and framed in such a way that natural actions logically follow. When you tell yourself the truth, you’re making actionable statements.

For example: “I want to have a healthier body.” That’s motivating. It’s energizing. Instead of saying, “I’m so sick. Look at my belly. I hate how I look,” or lying to yourself with, “I’m thin and healthy and fit,” you could simply say, “I want to be healthier. I’m working on that.”

That’s forward-looking. It’s optimistic. It’s intentional. It’s true. And because your mind and body know it’s true, they align with it. The more you tell yourself true statements, the more momentum you gain. Motivation snowballs.

This reminds me of a book I once read about weight loss. The author described a skill she called “Monkey Bars.” She said, “If you’re not where you want to be in some area of your life, just tell yourself the next monkey bar belief.” And the first one is always: “I want this thing.” That one shift removes all the negativity of self-deprecation and the falsehood of affirmations.

Looping back—the reason these truth statements work is because you instantly believe yourself. You respect yourself for telling the truth. You feel real motivation to move forward. You focus on what’s good and right about you and your circumstances. Your mind starts solving problems instead of fighting lies. And your self-confidence naturally grows.

Let me give you a few more examples.

Example 2: Children’s choices
If your children are making choices you don’t like, affirmations might sound like: “I’m okay with what they’re doing”—but that’s not true. And because it’s not true, it only discourages you more.

Instead, here are some empowering truth statements:

These are true, actionable, and deeply empowering.

Example 3: Career dissatisfaction
You might be tempted to say: “I love my job,” or “I have a thriving business.” But if that’s not your reality, your brain rejects it.

Instead, you could say:

These truth statements move you forward. They free you from discouragement.

When you practice truth statements, you’ll feel the difference. You’ll feel liberated from self-deprecating thoughts, freed from affirmations that create inner conflict, and empowered to live with integrity.

Remember: you are not a victim of your emotions. You will never find peace if you constantly put yourself down. But you are in control of your own happiness.

I’ve seen hundreds of women in our Academy completely transform their lives just by mastering this one skill. Affirmations won’t get you there. Truth will.

So if you’re in a circumstance you don’t like, if you’re stuck in negative emotions, resist the urge to put yourself down—or to prop yourself up with empty affirmations. Instead, tell yourself the truth. Tell yourself what’s real, what’s possible, and what you can do today.

That’s how you build a life you love. A life that’s beautiful, noble, and worthy of you.

Because the truth always sets you free.

Thank you so much for joining me today. It’s been a joy to talk through these principles with you. I hope they uplift, inspire, and ennoble you—and give you the tools you need to move forward if you’re stuck.

If you haven’t yet downloaded your free audiobook copy of The Mission-Driven Life: Discover and Fulfill Your Unique Contribution to the World, head over to themissiondrivenmom.com and grab it today. I don’t know how much longer it will be free, so make sure to do that soon.

I’ll see you next time.

Get Your FREE Audiobook of The Mission Driven Life: Discover and Fulfill Your Unique Contribution to the World: https://www.themissiondrivenmom.com/

It was such a joy to learn about the life and work of William Penn! The sacrifices he made to hold true to his conscience and faith are awe-inspiring. His famous words, spoken when he was facing life imprisonment for not recanting his defense of the Quaker faith, demonstrate his incredible character and courage: 

“Thou must tell my father, whom I know will ask thee these words, that my prison shall be my grave before I will budge a jot, for I owe my conscience to no mortal man. I have no need to fear—God will make amends for all.”

Having spent his younger years defending his faith, he spent his later years defending his colony--Pennsylvania. When, by a miracle, he was granted the largest tract of land ever given to a citizen, his only thought was to create a haven of religious tolerance, liberty and self-government for people of all races, cultures and faiths. It is humbly to learn about the pain he went through to establish those laws and keep them in force until the American revolution. 

In this mission driven story, you'll not only be humbled by the works and life of William Penn, you'll see the 7 Laws of Life Mission in action in the life a great man--and be inspired to work on preparing for you own God-given life missions. 

Check out other Mission Driven Stories here: https://www.themissiondrivenmom.com/podcasts/the-mission-driven-mom-podcast

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PODCAST TRANSCRIPT (AI Transcript)

  Alright, welcome back to the podcast! I'm Audrey Rindlisbacher, author of The Mission-Driven Life and founder of The Mission-Driven Mom. I’m so glad you’re here with me today. We’re going to do something fun—we’ll be talking about William Penn in a mission-driven story. We’ll get to him in just a minute.

If you’re new to the show, go right ahead and keep listening to recent episodes. But you might want to go back to the beginning of this series. In those early episodes, I go in-depth on the Seven Laws of Life Mission and why we do what we do here. That background might give you a better foundation and a deeper grasp of what we’re about.

Of course, you’ll also want to head over to themissiondrivenmom.com and grab your free copy of the audiobook The Mission-Driven Life. In it, I take an in-depth look at the Seven Laws of Life Mission, how the Ten Boom family lived them, and how they can completely transform your life—helping you discover and fulfill your own unique contributions to the world. I don’t know how much longer that audiobook will be free, so make sure to grab it while you can.

Now, before we jump into William Penn, let me answer a question I get a lot: Why do I share these mission-driven stories in the first place?

There are several reasons. First, they help you gain better insight into the Seven Laws. Seeing these laws lived out by great men and women makes them easier to understand.

Second, these stories prove the effectiveness of the laws. They show that those who had the most positive impact in the world consistently lived by them. As leaders in their homes, communities, and sometimes even nations, they always returned to those foundational principles.

The more mission-driven stories we hear, the more faith we gain in the laws’ ability to give us a solid foundation and set us firmly on the path of mission. And we’re reminded that, just like these men and women—who often had their own struggles when they were young—we too can grow into something greater.

And third, these stories are simply inspiring. Spending time with some of the best people who have ever lived allows their goodness and nobility to rub off on us. Their examples put our own lives and sacrifices in better context when we see what others have endured for truth and goodness.

I’ve said this often, but after reading The Hiding Place for the first time, I would climb into bed every night genuinely grateful that I wasn’t in a concentration camp like Corrie and Betsy ten Boom. Their example humbled me, made me grateful, and kept them top of mind—because I wanted to be like them.

One of the things I point out in my book is that the Ten Booms were my idols. I really wanted to become like them. And as I read Corrie’s other books, I realized they weren’t always the incredible people I first imagined. They were good and wholesome, yes, but they also had a lot of struggles to overcome—just like I do, and just like you probably do.

Maybe you have struggles in your marriage, with your finances, with your health, or with your confidence. Maybe you’re not sure what your gifts and talents are, or you don’t know what next steps to take. Maybe you’re just struggling to get out of bed in the morning because life doesn’t feel exciting and you long for a deeper purpose.

Those are exactly the kinds of challenges we address here at The Mission-Driven Mom—on this podcast, in my book The Mission-Driven Life, and especially in the Academy, where we walk you step by step from survival mode into thriving, growing, and developing into your best self.

So with that in mind, let’s dive into William Penn.

Now, I knew he was the founder of Pennsylvania, but honestly, I didn’t know much more than that. As I learned about him, I discovered his life is an incredible story.

He was born in 1644 in England, and if you know anything about England in the 1600s, it was not a pretty time. There was almost constant religious persecution. As leadership shifted—through Cromwell, kings, and sudden deaths—the dominant religious affiliation would change. Whatever religion the leader supported was favored, and everyone else was persecuted. Leaders would promise tolerance, but those promises were quickly broken.

This is the environment William grew up in. When he was three years old, he contracted smallpox. It nearly killed him, but he survived. The illness left him bald for much of his childhood, so he wore wigs. Thankfully, as an adult, his hair grew back.

By the time William was four, Cromwell had taken power, executed King Charles, and unleashed major social unrest. He sent troops to Ireland to suppress resistance and began expanding his control there—really tragic events.

Meanwhile, William’s father was a high-ranking naval general. By the time William was small, his father was second in command of the Royal Navy. Because of his service, the king granted him an estate, Macroom Castle in Ireland, along with the surrounding lands. You can still find pictures of it online—it’s pretty incredible.

So William grew up in a well-known family. His father was connected to the king, they were financially comfortable, and they even collected rents from their estate.

As a boy, William was sent to Chigwell School, a few miles from home. He started around age five and would run to school each day. Classes began at 6 a.m.—can you imagine? These little kids had incredibly long days. William studied catechism and prayers, and then subjects like Greek, English literature, English grammar, Latin, spelling, and moral training, well into the afternoon.

But William was a smart kid, and that served him well. School wasn’t particularly difficult for him, and his intelligence would be a blessing throughout his life.

As he grew a little older—around nine, ten, eleven years old—Cromwell sent William’s father on a mission. Admiral Penn didn’t carry it out the way Cromwell wanted, and when he returned, Cromwell threw him into the Tower of London for a time. Eventually, Cromwell couldn’t find legitimate charges to hold him on, so he had to release him. But the experience deeply disgraced Admiral Penn and his family.

Wanting a fresh start, Admiral Penn took his family to their estate in Ireland when William was about eleven. He brought many of his people with him, got the estate organized, and set about running it. Because William’s father believed there wasn’t a school good enough nearby, William didn’t attend school for the next four years. Instead, he worked alongside his father, helping manage the estate and doing what they called “man’s work.”

But William didn’t like how his father treated people. Admiral Penn was a hard, rough man. He had gone to sea as a boy—probably around eight or nine years old—had his own ship by seventeen, and spent much of his life at war. So what happened next truly shocked William.

One day, while they were in Ireland, word came of a Quaker preacher passing through. The Quaker movement was still relatively new, founded by George Fox only a few decades earlier, and it was spreading slowly across England and beyond. William was stunned to hear his father say, “If you see him, tell him I welcome him here. He may hold a meeting in our home if he wishes. There’s plenty of food and room for him. We shouldn’t judge him. I’ve been judged unfairly myself, and I won’t judge others.”

So the preacher, Thomas Loe, came to their home, shared a sermon, and it was so beautiful and moving that it brought William to tears. When he looked over at his father—this stern, battle-hardened man—he saw him crying too. It was the only time William ever saw his father cry.

Here’s a taste of what Thomas Loe preached to them, taken from one of his tracts:

“True religion is not a matter of outward observances. Rather, it takes place within the heart. It is not rooted in past events in a far-off land, but in the true inner light that shone then and continues to shine today. Men must follow this inner light until it illuminates their hearts and they experience closeness with God. No priest or clergyman can mediate this. Each man, in the quiet of his heart, must come to his own reckoning with God. For the scriptures tell us that man looks on the outward appearance, but God looks at the heart.”

That message stayed with William. Though the family didn’t convert, he remembered the experience fondly. It made him think more deeply about his spiritual life, his relationship with God, and the kind of man he wanted to become.

After four years in Ireland, Cromwell and his son both died, and the country sought to restore the monarchy. They invited Prince Charles back, made him promise certain reforms, and crowned him king. Of course, Charles broke his promises soon after—no surprise there.

But because Admiral Penn had done so much for Charles’s father before his execution, the new king knighted Admiral Penn, raising the family to nobility. William and his father also had close ties to James, Charles’s brother, which would prove significant later in William’s life.

When William was fifteen or sixteen, the family returned to England, and he was sent off to Oxford. He was delighted. But Oxford, like much of England, had been a battleground during the upheavals. When Cromwell had taken power, he installed a Puritan headmaster, and the Puritans eliminated sports, group activities, and other traditions. When Charles regained the throne, leadership shifted again, creating more tension.

At one point, William saw fellow students beat a Quaker for his beliefs. Having had his own beautiful encounter with Quakers, he was disturbed and chose to distance himself from the mainstream students. Instead, he befriended Puritans and even visited Dr. John Owen, a respected Puritan thinker. At Owen’s home, William engaged in deep discussions about religion, philosophy, and government—the very things stirring in his heart and mind.

But his refusal to conform caused trouble. He resisted wearing certain required religious garments and skipped daily services. After repeated warnings, he was expelled.

When he returned home, his father was outraged. He beat William severely, and it took him time to heal. William’s parents then consulted and decided to send him abroad. It was fashionable for wealthy young men to tour Europe, so at eighteen William set out with letters of introduction to influential figures.

He met leading men of the time, developed a taste for fine clothing, learned French, and had an “okay” experience. But he longed for the deep discussions he’d had at Oxford and with Thomas Loe.

The highlight of his trip was meeting Moses Amyraut, a famous French theologian. William enrolled at the Protestant Academy in Saumur, where Amyraut taught. For nearly a year he studied, grew, and engaged in profound conversations under Amyraut’s mentorship. But then Amyraut died unexpectedly, and by spring, with school out, William decided it was time to return home.

Now, though, he was different. He had gained strong, logical reasons for following his conscience. And based on his experiences—with Quakers, Puritans, Protestants, and especially his mentor Amyraut—William made a personal promise: from then on, he would always follow his conscience.

Like I’ve said in past podcasts, almost everyone I’ve ever studied who truly did great good in the world made this same commitment—to follow their conscience. It’s that important.

William’s father knew how much he loved discussion and ideas. So when William returned home, Admiral Penn wondered what to do with him. He decided to have him study law at Lincoln’s Inn. William spent about a year there, until he was around twenty.

And then—the plague broke out. This was the terrible London plague. We don’t know the exact numbers, but it wiped out a huge portion of the city’s population. At times, up to 6,000 people a week were dying. Officials couldn’t keep up. In some cases, they would board up houses where the plague was present, sealing families inside without access to food or water. Some died of starvation rather than the plague itself. Each day, workers knocked on doors and dragged out the dead. It was horrific.

Naturally, schools closed, and William returned home. Their family, living outside the city, was spared. But during this time, something made a deep impression on William: the Quakers’ response to the plague. At great personal risk, they went house to house bringing food, even to families locked inside. They helped remove bodies, they cared for the sick. They faced not only the risk of death by plague but also public mockery and persecution. Yet they kept going, doing good.

Reflecting on this, William remembered what his mentor Moses Amyraut had taught him: piety alone isn’t enough. True morality demands that a man take responsibility for his brother. And that’s exactly what he saw the Quakers doing.

By now, William was twenty-one. His father realized William could legally represent him, so he sent him back to Ireland to manage the family estate. William didn’t get along well with his father, so he was glad to go. While he was there, the Great Fire of London swept through the city. The fire raged for days, destroying up to two-thirds of the buildings. Ironically, it also ended the plague.

Meanwhile in Ireland, William was looking for a good tailor—he still loved fine clothing—and wandered into a small shop run by a plainly dressed woman. They struck up a conversation, and she mentioned she was a Quaker. William told her he had once heard a Quaker preacher named Thomas Loe. At first she didn’t believe him, but when he recalled specific things Loe had taught, she realized he was telling the truth. She invited him to a secret Quaker meeting, since persecution in Ireland forced them underground. And she told him that Thomas Loe himself would be preaching.

William eagerly went. Hearing Loe again moved him to tears, touching the deepest parts of his heart. By this point, with all he had been learning, he was ready to hear Loe’s message: obey conscience, be true to the light of Christ within, and live your religion through your daily life.

He stayed late into the night speaking with Loe, who emphasized that real faith is love, peace, and following the light of conscience illuminated by Jesus Christ. Not long afterward, William attended another meeting. Suddenly, a soldier burst in, determined to arrest everyone.

William, not yet a declared Quaker, was outraged. He was strong and furious at the interruption. He grabbed the soldier and dragged him toward the staircase, ready to throw him down. But the Quakers begged him to stop. “We are pacifists. This is not how we live. Please, let him go.” So William released him, and the man fled.

The soldier soon returned with reinforcements, and everyone was arrested. In court, the judge was startled to see William Penn—son of Admiral Penn, heir to a noble family—among the prisoners. He told William he could go free.

But William faced a moment of conscience. He declared openly, “I am a Quaker too.” And with that, he stayed with his friends and went to prison with them. His legal training proved invaluable, as he pressed the authorities to state under what law they were being held. Eventually, he won their release.

This became a pattern: his education and sharp legal mind would serve the Quakers again and again.

When his father learned William had declared himself a Quaker, he was livid. He demanded William return home. William did—but he brought another Quaker with him, partly as protection. He feared his father might beat him again, and William, now a strong man, didn’t want to fight back or dishonor him.

The next day, father and son rode together to an inn. In a private upstairs room, Admiral Penn confronted him: “What you’re doing is ridiculous. You’re disgracing me. If you continue, not even I—with all my influence—will be able to protect you. You will lose your life, and I will lose my career for raising such a son.”

William refused to budge. His father then said he would pray that God would make William stop being a Quaker. William pleaded, “Don’t say that prayer!” But the conversation was interrupted and left unresolved.

Over time, Admiral Penn pressed him again and again: “You must give this up. You can’t be a Quaker and be my son.” But William held firm. Finally, his father threw him out of the house and threatened to disinherit him.

At twenty-four years old, William Penn was homeless and penniless. He took refuge with the Quakers—and it was there, spending time in their community, that he realized something powerful.

He realized that their founder, George Fox, was a really eloquent speaker, but he’d never had much of an education. As a result, he wasn’t a very strong writer. William decided it would be his role to defend the faith in writing. So he began publishing essays and pamphlets, using an underground printer to get them out.

Eventually, he was caught and imprisoned. He was locked in a room alone, with no visitors or books, and told that unless he recanted, he would spend the rest of his life in prison. We know what he said during that time because his words were written down. His father was petitioning for his release, but the condition was clear: William had to renounce his beliefs. His response, at just 24 years old, is astounding. He said:

“Thou must tell my father, whom I know will ask thee these words, that my prison shall be my grave before I will budge a jot, for I owe my conscience to no mortal man. I have no need to fear—God will make amends for all.”

At that point, he was fully prepared to die for his faith and his conscience.

A little while later, he was allowed pen and paper. Using only his memory, he wrote powerfully. One author noted that in a single work he quoted 64 different thinkers—from Socrates to Martin Luther—and cited over 400 passages from the Bible. In another essay on Quaker beliefs, he wrote No Cross, No Crown, promising himself he would find a way to smuggle it out of the Tower of London. You can still find that work today—it’s available online.

William wrote many essays during his life. Eventually, he was released—not because of a change of heart, but because it reflected badly on his father, a knighted nobleman, to have his son languishing in prison. The condition of his release was that his father would be responsible for him for one year.

And what did his father do? He sent him back to Ireland to manage the estate again.

On the way, William stayed with a Quaker family, where he met his future wife. She was remarkable—educated, intelligent, and deeply faithful. Not many women, even among the upper class, were educated at that time, but she was. They quickly formed a strong connection and fell deeply in love, though they didn’t marry for another three or four years.

While in Ireland, William threw himself into both managing the estate and helping Quakers, especially those imprisoned for their beliefs. He appealed to wealthy, influential people for funds and urged them to use their influence to free the prisoners. Eventually, with the estate running smoothly, William returned to England.

Not long after, he led a prayer meeting on a street corner. That bold, public act got him arrested once again. William would go to prison many times during his life, but this particular trial had an especially fascinating outcome.

When asked to plead guilty or not guilty, he first asked whether he would have a fair trial. Assured that he would, he agreed. In court, he proved that he had broken no law. The judge, determined to punish him for his faith, instructed the jury to find him guilty. But the jury refused.

Frustrated, the judge sent both William and his friend—along with the entire jury—to prison overnight. The next day, he demanded a different verdict. The jury returned with essentially the same finding: William Penn was not guilty. This cycle repeated several times. Finally, the judge fined them heavily and imprisoned them until the fine was paid.

Eventually, William’s father paid his fine, and William was released. Soon after, he was summoned to his father’s deathbed. Meanwhile, the jurors who had stood their ground later sued the judge for obstructing justice—and won. That case set an important precedent in England: juries must be independent, and judges could not force their verdicts.

At his father’s bedside, William was surprised by his final words. His father said:

“Let nothing in this world tempt you to wrong your conscience. I charge you, do nothing against your conscience. So will you keep peace at home, which will be a feast to you in a day of trouble.”

Despite earlier threats, William’s father had not removed him from the will. Upon his death, William inherited the family estate and became instantly wealthy.

Yet his wealth, noble standing, and friendships—even with men like James, Duke of York—were not enough to keep him out of prison. Just five months after his father’s death, William was again arrested for leading a Quaker meeting and sentenced to six months. At least this time he knew when his release would come.

The prison conditions were harsh, but William found comfort in the fellowship of his fellow prisoners. He also found his pen again. Out of that imprisonment came perhaps his greatest work: The Great Case for Liberty of Conscience. This pamphlet would leave an incredible legacy—one that still affects you and me today.

Written in 1670, when William was only 26 years old, it laid out arguments for why forcing religious conformity is destructive. Let me share some of his key points:

Penn concluded that coercion undermines everything: the honor of God, the power of Christianity, the authority of scripture, the principles of reason and natural law, the well-being of government and society, and the wisdom of both ancient and modern thinkers.

One historian called Penn’s tract “the completest exposition of the theory of toleration at the time.”

As a side note: during this period, William Penn met John Locke while touring Europe, and he was also friends with John Bunyan, who wrote Pilgrim’s Progress while imprisoned around the same time.

In 1672, William married Gulielma Springett. He hoped his life would grow more peaceful, but it was not to be. Their first baby girl died at just seven weeks old. In fact, William and his two wives would have 13 children between them, but 11 of those children died during his lifetime.

His life was filled with loss and trial. Yet, even amid grief, William and Gulielma’s love for each other endured. With some financial independence, he poured himself into his mission: helping the Quakers with his resources, legal training, education, eloquence, and pen. He even traveled abroad for months at a time to defend them.

But eventually, his financial advisor warned him that his funds were running low—and William was forced to scale back.

Instead of stopping that work, he chose to live in a more modest home so he could continue serving the Quakers. Now, of course, at this time all the civil unrest and religious persecution was happening in England. I won’t get into all of that—you can look it up—but it was pretty miserable. From one day to the next, someone might be in power who didn’t like what you believed.

Whether you were Catholic, Protestant, Quaker, or Puritan, there was always somebody in charge who opposed at least one of those groups. And that meant you were in trouble. William Penn was just done with it. He was sick of it.

He decided that if he could get his own tract of land in America—if the king would grant it—he could finally have a place of religious freedom. What he really wanted was to create a refuge in America for his fellow Quakers and for anyone else suffering persecution.

That became his dream: I’ve been fighting here for years. Let’s just go build a safe place where we can live together in peace.

And then something miraculous happened. He petitioned the king for land between Maryland and New Jersey, and to his utter shock—and everyone else’s—the king granted it. Partly to repay an old debt to William’s father, the king gave him the largest charter of land ever: 45,000 square miles. That’s almost 29 million acres, making Penn the largest private landholder in the world.

We don’t know exactly why the king did it—maybe to clear the debt, maybe because he trusted Penn’s intentions—but whatever the reason, it was truly miraculous. That land, of course, became Pennsylvania.

Now, there are three key things William Penn did immediately after receiving this land grant—which, by the way, was given to him within just a few days, almost overnight. He had already been thinking about this for a long time. He called it his “Holy Experiment.” For him, it was 100% driven by his love for God and his desire to provide greater freedom for as many people as possible. With that pure intention, God blessed him with such a vast tract of land where he could live out this dream—a blessing to countless others.

First, he needed to name it. Penn wanted to call it Sylvania—which means “forest”—because the area was heavily wooded. But King Charles insisted that Penn’s name be included. That wasn’t the Quaker way; Penn didn’t want to name anything after himself. Finally, the king convinced him by saying he should name it after his father, Sir William Penn. And so, reluctantly, he agreed. To Penn, it was in honor of his father, and the colony became Pennsylvania.

He was given full freedom to do whatever he wanted with the land. The crown trusted him completely. He was only 36 years old at the time. Isn’t that incredible? He would live another 30-plus years, and while Pennsylvania became a tremendous blessing to the world, for Penn himself it was also a source of great trial and struggle. He spent the rest of his life fighting to bring his vision for Pennsylvania to fruition.

The first thing he did after receiving the charter was write three letters. This alone speaks volumes about his character and intentions.

The first was to Robert Turner, an old Quaker friend. He wrote:

“It is a clear and just thing, and my God has given it to me through many difficulties. I believe He will bless it and make it the seed of a nation. I shall have a tender care for the government, that it will be well laid at the start.”

His vision was clear: Pennsylvania would be founded on fair laws and become the seed of a nation—which, of course, it was. His foresight is incredible.

The second letter was to the roughly one thousand people already living in Pennsylvania. He wrote:

“My friends, I hope you will not be troubled by this change. You are now fixed at the mercy of no governor who comes only to make his fortune. You shall be governed by laws of your own making and live free, and, if you will, as a sober and industrious people. I shall not usurp the right of any or oppress his person. God has furnished me with a better resolution and given me the grace to keep it.”

In other words, God had touched him, instilling in him a desire to serve selflessly. His only goal was to be a good governor and to make the people as free and prosperous as possible.

The third letter was to the Native Americans in the area. He began:

“My friends, there is one great God and Power who made the world and all things in it, to whom you and I and all people owe our being and well-being, and to whom you and I must one day give an account for all we have done in the world.”

He went on to say that he wanted to enjoy Pennsylvania with their love and consent, so that they might always live together as neighbors and friends. He wrote:

“What would the great God say to us if we devour and destroy one another, when He has made us to live soberly and kindly together in the world? I am very aware of the unkindness and injustice that have too often been shown toward you by those who sought to profit from you, rather than be examples of justice and goodness. I am not such a man. I have great love and regard for you, and I desire to gain your friendship through a kind, just, and peaceable life. The people I send are of the same mind. I shall shortly come to see you myself, at which time we may more freely confer.”

And true to his word, when Penn finally arrived in Pennsylvania, one of the first things he did was meet with the Native Americans. He worked hard to learn their difficult language so he could speak with them directly. He paid them for land the king had granted him if they claimed it, and then he laid the foundations for Philadelphia. He named it “Philadelphia,” meaning “brotherly love,” because that was his vision for the city.

Not long after, however, disputes arose. The governor of Maryland claimed that part of Philadelphia belonged to him. The charters conflicted in their boundary descriptions, so Penn had to fight the matter in English courts. This became his first major legal battle for Pennsylvania, and it kept him in England for several years.

When he eventually returned and later left Pennsylvania again, the Native Americans gave him this beautiful tribute:

“Besides that he paid us for our lands, which no governor ever did before, we hope the great king of the English will be good and kind to him and his children. We have confidence that we and our children will be well treated and encouraged to live among the Christians, according to the agreement we have solemnly made—as long as the sun and moon endure, with one head, one mouth, and one heart. We could say much of his good counsel and instructions, which he often gave us—to live sober and virtuous lives as the best way to please the great God and be happy here and forever. But let this suffice to the great king and his wise men, in love to our good friend and brother William Penn.”

They truly admired and respected him, recognizing him as a just and honorable man.

Because of the laws he established and the way he treated the Native Americans, Philadelphia flourished. People of a dozen different faiths lived together in peace and harmony. They walked side by side in the streets without conflict. It is no coincidence that Philadelphia became the seat of government in early America—the place where the Continental Congress met, where the Constitution was written, and where the greatest freedoms first took root.

Later, while back in England, Penn experienced the greatest betrayal of his life. Robert, the man he had entrusted with his financial affairs decades earlier, died. Not long after, Robert’s widow approached Penn, waving a contract he had forgotten about.

Years earlier, when Penn was fighting for Pennsylvania and feared losing it, Robert had convinced him to sign the colony over to him unconditionally. The plan was that if Penn lost it, Robert could hold it safely and return it later. If not, they would tear up the agreement. Trusting Robert completely, Penn had signed. And then the battle dragged on for years…

And because the battle dragged on for so long, William forgot about the contract. Robert never mentioned it again. But when Robert wrote his will, he kept the contract and left it to his wife. She was not a kind woman, and she came to William Penn lording it over him, saying, “Look, I own Pennsylvania now. You’ll have to pay me 11,000 pounds for it, or I’ll keep it and become the governor myself.”

Penn was devastated. He excused her from the room and broke down in tears. He wept because he was tired of constantly fighting for Pennsylvania. He wept because it was once again under threat. He wept because this woman was actually threatening to take over as governor. And, of course, he didn’t have 11,000 pounds to pay her. But most of all, he wept because of the great betrayal—discovering that his dear friend and fellow Quaker, whom he had trusted completely, had deceived him all along.

As Penn’s advisors combed through Robert’s financial records—many of which were incomplete or missing—they discovered that Robert had been cheating him for years. He had written himself contracts, taken parcels of land, and essentially stolen from Penn all along.

So began many more years of struggle as Penn fought Robert’s widow for Pennsylvania. Eventually, he cleared the matter and the colony was restored to him, but not without enormous heartache and difficulty.

During this period, his wife died, leaving him with two surviving children. Believing they needed a mother, he remarried. His second wife bore several more children, though many of them also died young. By this time Penn was in his sixties, weary from decades of battles. All he wanted was to return to Pennsylvania and rest.

He even considered handing the colony back to Parliament so he could simply live there in peace. His only condition was that they preserve the laws he had put in place. Parliament refused, saying they would govern the land however they wished. So, Penn refused to give it up and moved back to his estate outside Philadelphia—about 20 or 30 miles away. It was beautiful, a true sanctuary for his family.

But not long after returning, he suffered his first stroke. He recovered fairly quickly, but within a few years he had more strokes that left him debilitated. Eventually, he could no longer read, write, or care for himself. He died from these complications in Pennsylvania.

And here’s something fascinating: because of his stroke, the paperwork transferring Pennsylvania back to the Crown was never completed. The Penn family retained official ownership of Pennsylvania until the Revolutionary War, when all royal charters were dissolved.

It’s remarkable, really. You wouldn’t expect a stroke to be a blessing, but God used even that. Despite the betrayal and constant battles, Penn remained pure in heart, without greed or selfish ambition. Because of his character, Pennsylvania stayed under his family’s control. That meant the laws he had established remained in force until the Revolution—keeping Pennsylvania one of the freest places in the world.

In 1751, a bell was hung in the Pennsylvania State House in Philadelphia to commemorate the 50th anniversary of Penn’s Charter of Privileges, written in 1701. The inscription read: “Proclaim liberty throughout the land unto all the inhabitants thereof.” In 1776, that same bell—the Liberty Bell—rang out at the signing of the Declaration of Independence, proclaiming liberty to all who heard it.

Although William Penn spent only a small portion of his life in Pennsylvania, his influence there was profound. When delegates gathered in Philadelphia in 1787 to draft the Constitution, Penn’s ideals—liberty, justice, fairness, and tolerance—guided much of their thinking. Thomas Jefferson even called William Penn “the greatest lawgiver the world has produced.”

Penn’s “Holy Experiment” had a lasting impact on American religious freedom. Pennsylvania became one of the most religiously tolerant places in the world at the time. His progressive ideas directly influenced the framers of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, embedding religious liberty into the foundation of American law.

Penn wrote in his Charter of Privileges that “no people can be truly happy, though under the greatest enjoyment of civil liberties, if deprived of the freedom of their consciences.” He believed good government could never coerce faith or require conformity, but must respect individual beliefs. That conviction made Pennsylvania prosperous and peaceful, and its influence spread far beyond—throughout America and the world.

The principles he lived and championed truly changed history. You and I owe much of the freedom we enjoy today to this mission-driven man.

And if you’re familiar with the Seven Laws of Life Mission, you probably noticed them woven throughout his story. Let’s recap to see how Penn embodied each of them:

Through all of this, William Penn truly lived a mission-driven life—and his legacy of liberty continues to bless us today.

And he heard the call when he was at Oxford, wanting to befriend others and live according to his conscience. He heard the call when he began writing tracts—even in prison. He heard the call when he was given the opportunity to be freed, but declared, “No, I am a Quaker.” He heard the call every time the Quakers needed his help—whether as their attorney, as their champion speaking to wealthy patrons, or even to the king or his brother. Whatever was needed, William Penn responded.

He heard the call to be a husband. He heard the call to be a father. And then came the greatest call of all: “Here are 45,000 acres. You are the richest landholder in the world. What will you do with this incredible gift?”

William Penn called it his “Holy Experiment.” He consecrated it to God and gave it to the people who lived there. He never pursued wealth for himself—he only tried to collect rent to fund a functioning government and to put laws in place that protected religious freedom and self-governance.

Even though he longed to simply rest at his beautiful Pennsylvania home, where he had built a modest house and garden, he spent most of his life fighting for the people he loved. He embodied true servant leadership. And his courage was unmatched—whether declaring, “This tower, this prison will be my grave,” rather than deny his faith, or defending liberty again and again.

The Seven Laws of Life Mission shine clearly through his life. They are always present in those who leave a profoundly positive impact on their families, their communities, and the world. People like William Penn don’t betray others or step on them to get ahead. Instead, they choose the higher path, and their sacrifices ripple outward for generations.

The reverberations of William Penn’s sacrifices—over his 68 or 70 years on earth—still echo today. You and I continue to reap the benefits of his defense of conscience, the laws he established, and the unity he sought for America.

📍 I love sharing his story with you. I hope it inspires you. I hope it stirs in you a greater desire to pursue your own life mission with intention and courage. Discover your unique gifts, lay them at the feet of God, and let Him partner with you to fulfill your purpose—so you can bless your family, your community, and the world beyond.

Thank you so much for being here today. If you’d like to understand these Seven Laws of Life Mission in a deeper way, and see them lived out in the Ten Boom family, go get The Mission Driven Life audiobook for free. And of course, keep listening to more mission-driven stories right here on this podcast.

Thank you again for joining me and for staying all the way through. I’ll see you next time.

Grab Your FREE Audiobook Copy of The Mission Driven Life: Discover and Fulfill Your Unique Contribution to the World: https://www.themissiondrivenmom.com/.

Unfortunately none of us were given the skills for discovering and living true principles in our education! That lack is wreaking havoc in our lives because we don't always know how to discern what is true. Even worse, we don't have the principles we need that can free us from the persistant problems we face. 

In this episode Audrey spend a few minutes in the great classic The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn, demonstrating how a simple tool of the 5 Types of Questions can put us on the path to discovering and living truth. 

Join her to gain one simple skill that will uplevel your reading forever!

Listen to "The Battle Within: Your Two Consciences at War" here: https://www.themissiondrivenmom.com/podcasts/the-mission-driven-mom-podcast/episodes/2149056424

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PODCAST TRANSCRIPT (AI Generated)

 Welcome back to the podcast! I’m Audrey Rindlisbacher, author of The Mission-Driven Life: Discover and Fulfill Your Unique Contribution to the World, and founder of The Mission-Driven Mom and the MDM Academy. I’m so glad you could join me today.

We’re going to talk for a few minutes about how to find principles as we read—using The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn as our text.

These are vital, critical life skills. This is something we specialize in at the MDM Academy, and it aligns with the Third Law of Life Mission: Love Truth. Align Your Life with Principles.

Here’s a little summary of that law:

You have a conviction that God governs the world through natural laws and principles. You understand the nature of principles and can identify them wherever they are found—regardless of who is delivering the information, how they deliver it, or the form in which it’s delivered. You are a devoted truth-seeker who endeavors to find and live according to true principles. You teach principles in your home and work toward their application in every area of your life.

That’s what it means to align your life with principles.

Here are the three principles under the Law of Loving Truth:

That’s what we’ll be talking about today. I’m going to introduce you to a little bit of the method we use to do this and then break down a portion of Huckleberry Finn for you.

If you’re new to the show, you’ll definitely want to keep listening to new episodes, but I’d highly encourage you to go back to the beginning. We’ve reordered the podcast so it becomes a journey—walking you through the different concepts and the detailed episodes on the Seven Laws and many of their principles. That will help you get up to speed.

You’ll also hear lots of mission-driven stories about great men and women whose influence in the world was decidedly positive. It’ll be a really fun journey for you.

And if you haven’t already done so, please head over to themissiondrivenmom.com and grab your free copy of the book The Mission-Driven Life: Discover and Fulfill Your Unique Contribution to the World. We’ve recorded the most updated version of that book, and we’d love for you to become acquainted with the Seven Laws for free. If you’d like a hard copy, you can also order one there—it’s about $17.

So again, thank you for being here today. We’re diving into Law Three, and we’re going to talk about The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn.

I’ll give you a little bit of backstory in case you’ve never read this great classic. It is hilarious and highly entertaining. If you’ve got LibriVox—an app that provides free audiobooks in the public domain—the reader for The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn is phenomenal. LibriVox is spelled L-I-B-R-I-V-O-X. I highly recommend you get that app if you don’t have it; there are lots of good books there.

The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn is the follow-up to The Adventures of Tom Sawyer. In Tom Sawyer, Tom is the main character, with Huckleberry Finn as his sidekick.

Huck has been raised by an abusive, alcoholic father. He’s the poorest of the poor, often living outdoors, never having much of anything. In the climax of Tom Sawyer (and I hope this isn’t a spoiler—it’s a very old book!), Tom and Huck find treasure in a cave and become rich.

So Mark Twain followed up with The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn. It’s such an important book—maybe some of you read it in school. It captures that time and place perfectly. At the beginning, Twain notes that he worked very hard to make sure the dialects in the book are correct. That’s why the LibriVox reader is so good—he can read all those dialects authentically.

When we meet Huck again, he’s wealthy from the treasure, and Widow Douglas has taken him in—since, as usual, Huck’s father has disappeared. She wants to bring him up to be a proper man. She dresses him, puts him in a bed, sends him to school and to church—all the “civilized” things Huck has never known.

He doesn’t quite know what to do with himself, but he’s trying to get along. Early in the book, Huck complains about being civilized, but he’s also getting a little more comfortable with it. Then he has this conversation with the Widow, and I want to read it to you because it’s so fun and entertaining:

“She told me to pray every day and whatever I asked for, I would get it. But it warn’t so. I tried it once. I got a fish line, but no hooks. It warn’t any good to me without hooks. I tried for the hooks three or four times, but somehow I couldn’t make it work. By and by, one day I asked Miss Watson to try it for me, but she said I was a fool. She never told me why, and I couldn’t make it out no way.”

So Huck thinks prayer is for getting stuff. He prays for hooks, doesn’t get them, asks Miss Watson to pray for him, and she tells him he’s foolish—but never explains why.

“I sat down one time back in the woods and had a long think about it. I says to myself: if a body can get anything they pray for, why don’t Deacon Winn get back the money he lost on pork? Why can’t the Widow get back her silver snuffbox that was stole? Why can’t Miss Watson fat up? No, says I to myself, there ain’t nothing in it. I went and told the Widow about it, and she said the thing a body could get by praying for it was spiritual gifts. This was too many for me, but she told me what she meant—I must help other people, do everything I could for them, and never think about myself. This included Miss Watson, as I took it. I went out in the woods and turned it over in my mind a long time, but I couldn’t see no advantage about it—except for the other people. So at last I reckoned I wouldn’t worry about it anymore, but just let it go.”

Later Huck says:

“Sometimes the Widow would talk about Providence in a way to make a body’s mouth water. But maybe the next day, Miss Watson would take hold and knock it all down again. I judged I could see there was two Providences. And a poor chap would stand a considerable show with the Widow’s Providence. But if Miss Watson’s got him, there warn’t no help for him anymore.”

Here we have a boy with zero acquaintance with religion, trying to make sense of God. And what’s fascinating is—he’s interested. He’s watching people around him have spiritual experiences. He’s even going out into the woods to think and ponder. He really does care.

And I think sometimes people care a lot more than we give them credit for. Huck wasn’t given credit for his efforts, but he was genuinely trying.

This is exactly what we love to do in our programs—help people read, learn, look at life, current events, or literature, and distill truth from it.

So, let me show you briefly how I’d approach this text.

At the Academy, we teach five types of questions. They help us find principles, learn, and have rich discussions. Questions are a powerful tool we don’t use enough.

The first type is a knowledge question: What’s going on here?

We’ve just answered that—Huck is trying to understand prayer and God, but he’s confused.

Then we move to why questions: Why is this happening? Why is the Widow trying to civilize Huck? Why is he resisting? Why is she teaching him about God? Why is he pondering it?

Those “why” questions open up deeper truths.

The tragedy of our public school system is that it often stops at the first type of question—knowledge. Once students can repeat the facts, we assume they understand. But true understanding, connection, and application only come by climbing deeper—layer after layer—through thoughtful questioning.

I don’t have time in this short podcast to go through all five types or to answer all these questions. But if I were teaching this in a group, with my kids, or in the MDM Academy, that’s exactly what we’d do. We’d ask why—and one answer might be: the Widow knows the blessing God could be in Huck’s life.

And why does Huck care? Because there’s something inside him that sees the value in it and is curious about it. I believe that’s because we are children of God, and so we naturally desire to know Him.

All of this could lead us into a beautiful discussion about why this is happening at all. And that takes us to the next layer of questioning—the one I want to focus on today—which is: What’s the truth here? What’s the underlying principle in this story?

Now, what we want to do—and this is something we practice constantly in the Academy and in our programs—is identify the first principles.

First principles are part of natural law. They are ideas and concepts that are true for everyone, everywhere, all the time. They’re things we intuitively know. For example:

Natural rights like these are actually where we start with our students when we’re teaching about truth and how to live as truth-seekers. Because they’re so innate and universally understood, they’re a perfect starting point for learning how to identify and live by true principles.

And I would argue that one of those first principles we all intuitively know is that there is a higher being—something beyond this world and beyond ourselves.

There are many reasons I believe this, but one powerful reason is this: throughout the history of the world, and even today, over 90% of people believe in God or a higher power. That’s way too significant a number across the entire human race to dismiss. It’s not reasonable to say that all of those people, across time and culture, are just ignorant or foolish.

Even those who say they don’t believe in God often define themselves in relation to the God they claim doesn’t exist—which, in itself, is very telling.

So I would say: a first principle here is simply that there is a God, and we intuitively know this deep inside.

Because of that truth, the Widow Douglas is trying to teach Huck about God in ways that she hopes will help him live more effectively.

Now, another really key first principle in Huck’s story—which no one seems to be teaching him—is that his earthly father may be a mess, but he has a Heavenly Father who is good. Huck’s biological father is abusive and absent. But the reality that there is a God, that He is Huck’s Father, and that He loves him—that could change everything for Huck. Those truths could ground his life and give him the foundation he desperately needs.

Instead, what Huck is being taught are practices—like going to church, reading scripture, or praying—without the underlying first principles. And that’s the problem.

Prayer, for instance, is actually a first principle of worship. If there is a God, then we should worship Him. And prayer is one way we do that. But if Huck doesn’t know why prayer matters—if he doesn’t know who God is, that God is his Father, and that God loves him—then prayer will seem meaningless.

First principles always tell us why. Why we do what we do. Why something matters.

That’s what Huck is missing.

And yet, notice when the Widow talks to him about Providence—about God—he says it “makes a body’s mouth water.” Why? Because Huck wants those things to be true. It inspires him. It brings what we would call the Spirit into his heart.

So he thinks, “Wow, this God sounds really good. I’d love to know Him.”

But then someone else comes along and confuses the issue. And because Huck hasn’t been grounded in first principles, he doesn’t know how to make sense of it all.

That’s why Huck goes out into the woods to think about it—but he can’t make any sense of it.

Once we’ve identified some first principles in any situation we’re trying to discern—whether it’s a current event, who to vote for, or how to handle something differently with our child—those principles help us understand why. They give us clarity about what truly governs the situation.

In Huck Finn’s case, the first principle is that he needs to understand there is a loving Father in Heaven who wants to have a relationship with him. If Huck grasped that truth, it could give him the motivation to pray and to keep trying to build that relationship. Prayer is one of the means to do that.

But all of the advice Huck gets about prayer is muddled and confusing.

When I’ve taught these concepts before—whether in a class, a workshop, or a speaking event—I’ll often pause and ask the audience: If you were in this situation with Huckleberry Finn, what would you say to him? How would you resolve his concerns?

We write those responses on the board, or reflect them back in discussion. And here’s what usually happens: most of what people suggest are applications.

Now, this is something we emphasize a lot in the Academy: there are three levels—first principles, principles, and applications.

I introduce this framework briefly in The Mission-Driven Life, and I dive much deeper in my upcoming book How Truth Makes You Free (part one is already with my editor!). Of course, if you join the MDM Academy, we’ll walk you through this step by step.

But here’s the point: what people typically tell Huck are applications.

Applications are personal. For example, the way I pray and the way you pray probably look very different. We’re doing the same general activity, but the details vary widely. Do we pray out loud or silently? Do we use scripture in our prayers? Do we pray alone or with others? Do we pray for a long time or a short time? Do we sing our prayers, write them down, or simply think them?

There are a million possible applications.

Prayer itself is a principle. It’s true for everyone, all the time, and it flows naturally from the first principle that God exists and we should build a relationship with Him.

But the way we personally practice prayer—that’s the application.

Now here’s something really important: true principles aren’t usually intuitively obvious the way first principles are. First principles are innate—we just know them. But principles often need to be taught, discovered, or sought out.

That’s why so much of what we do at The Mission-Driven Mom, in my books, and in our programs is to help people become truth-seekers.

We want you to know why you do what you do—the first principles. Then we teach you how to uncover the principles that govern that area of life. And once you know those, you can create your own applications that fit your unique circumstances.

This process works in every area of life. There are principles of health and wellness, principles of organization, principles of business, principles of marriage—every area is governed by true principles. Whatever problem you’re facing, you can overcome it by identifying the principles in play and then creating applications that work for you.

A really good example of this is Jesus’s prayer.

When Jesus prayed, His prayer was short, simple, and powerful—because it was essentially a list of principles. It’s a model.

He shows us:

Jesus says, “After this manner, therefore pray ye.” Notice He doesn’t say, “Repeat this exact prayer.” There’s nothing wrong with reciting it, but His intent was to give us a framework—an outline of principles of prayer.

It begins: “Our Father which art in heaven.” — Start by addressing God directly: “I want to talk with You. I want to build a relationship with You.”

“Hallowed be Thy name.” — Offer worship. Immediately establish the relationship: He is God, you are not. You honor and revere Him.

“Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.” — Acknowledge His will above your own. Commit to obeying Him. Recognize that He makes the rules, not you, and that our task is to bring His will to earth, just as it’s already done in heaven.

That’s the structure—the list of principles. It’s not about reciting words; it’s about understanding and applying the principles of prayer.

“Give us this day our daily bread.” So you ask for the basic things that you need to survive, and also those things that will enrich your life.

Then you forgive: “Forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.” This is actually a principle. We go into a lot of depth on the principle of forgiveness in the Academy.

Jesus and other great leaders throughout history have taught extensively about the importance of forgiveness for our mental, emotional, and spiritual health. Forgiveness is absolutely vital. It’s life-giving—it’s like breathing air. Resentment is the great killer of our souls, and forgiveness is the great nurturer.

So this is a key element: we will be forgiven, but only as we forgive. Our forgiveness is vital to our own emotional and mental health. And then we’re asking for His forgiveness. We’re saying, in essence, “We’re willing to forgive others if You’re willing to forgive us,” because we understand that’s a conditional principle.

So we repent, ask for forgiveness, clean ourselves up, and then make ourselves right with our brothers and sisters here on earth by forgiving them as well.

These are all pieces of a quality prayer. These are all principles of prayer.

“Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.” We don’t want to do what’s wrong; we want to do what’s right. Help us avoid whatever is evil.

And then again, we give glory and power up to God at the end: “For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, forever. Amen.” That worshipful close again establishes the proper relationship. We know that we owe everything to Him. We know that He’s in charge—not us. We are His servants, His children, and so we want to do things His way.

The problem for Huckleberry Finn is that the people around him are doing in his day what people today still do.

Maybe if he had spent more time with a pastor—or maybe part of what the widow did for him—when it got really good and Huck was willing to ponder about it, those were the moments when she was teaching those first principles. Principles that had the light of truth in them, principles that would have illuminated Huck’s heart and mind. Truth lights us on fire because we recognize it when we hear it.

That got him interested enough to try the experiment. But for Huck, the application of prayer was limited—he only understood prayer as a way to “get stuff.”

There’s only one line in this entire list of prayer principles that Jesus lays out for us that’s about getting anything. And even then, it’s not about wealth or possessions. Huck didn’t understand the many other principles that could have helped him.

This is such a helpful construction. It’s a very good example of how, like Huck, we get caught up in our own problems. We have a certain lens through which we see the world. We can’t see beyond it. We don’t understand. We haven’t taken the time to get at the “why,” to understand the first principles we’re trying to align with, and then to see what principles might flow from them.

There are many other principles of establishing a relationship with God besides prayer—but the principles of prayer are vital. Huck needed to understand them as such and then be given the freedom to live out prayer, to apply these principles in any way, to any situation, at any time, through practice.

We talk about practicing principles a lot. In the Academy we say: uncover and write actionable principles—principles that can be practiced. That’s what’s most helpful. And then ask: how can we practice them?

As you go through the Academy, you also learn application tools—principles for applying principles.

This is such a good example of how we often get caught up in our problems and can’t figure out how to solve them, because we don’t yet have the tools. Like Huck, we spin our wheels. We get frustrated. Sometimes we throw our hands up in the air and give up. Sometimes we decide this is just our lot in life. Sometimes we rebel against our circumstances and do something radically different, hoping it will make life feel different.

But the real answer lies in the struggle itself. That struggle is happening in our lives because there’s something critical we need to learn.

We can see this clearly with Huck. We want him to have a relationship with his Father in Heaven. It would be such a boon, such a support, such a comfort, because he doesn’t have a healthy earthly father. But he’s blocked from forming that relationship—blocked by his own ignorance of first principles, and by the lack of proper teaching around him.

Now, a really good podcast to listen to in conjunction with this one is the recent episode on the Two Consciences. If you pair those together—and also look up other episodes on principles (just go to themissiondrivenmom.com, click on “Podcasts,” and type “principles” in the search bar)—you’ll find a lot more depth.

Stephen Covey taught that living according to principles is the foundation upon which lasting success and happiness is built. We must be truth seekers, and we must also have the skills and tools to do that.

In the past, when classical liberal arts education was mainstream, people had more tools. That’s why when you read older documents—or the writings of those who lived 150+ years ago, especially in the West—you see words like natural law, first principles, truth, duty, virtue, and character.

These were all wrapped up in an approach to life and to problems that was incredibly liberating. Classical liberal arts education is literally the root of liberty. It’s an education to make you free. The truth can—and will—make you and me free, if we know how to recognize it, articulate it, and apply it properly.

That’s at the heart of everything I’m about, and everything we’re doing here. I’ve seen these ideas revolutionize and transform the lives of hundreds of students. I’ve seen them help thousands of others who’ve read The Mission-Driven Life.

And I want that for you. That’s why I thought this little demonstration from Huck Finn would be so helpful.

Later in the story, Huck’s inability to connect with God and pray becomes a roadblock when he faces another moral dilemma. As I talk about in the Two Consciences podcast, there’s a battle in his heart between the social conscience and the divine conscience.

He thinks, because of what he’s been taught in the South, that slavery is right and that he ought to return his friend Jim to his slaveholder. He wrestles with this, and without prayer, without connection to God, without understanding his divine conscience, the struggle is very real for him.

In the end, Huck is our hero because he chooses to follow his true divine conscience instead of what society is telling him. He chooses to protect Jim. That’s so endearing and so beautiful.

There’s so much in that book to notice, but for now, I hope you can see how even one simple tool—like asking the five types of questions—can help us become better discerners, better truth seekers, and better at laying our lives on a foundation of true principles.

That’s what we want to empower you to do.

I hope this little window into living by principles—and the value and power of first principles—was enlightening for you today.

Thank you so much for joining me. Don’t forget to get your free copy of The Mission-Driven Life: Discover and Fulfill Your Unique Contribution to the World at themissiondrivenmom.com.

Thank you for being here—and I’ll see you next time.