Zach Pandl joins us for an investing masterclass on how to allocate to privacy in the age of AI. He breaks down how Grayscale converted its nine-year-old Zcash trust into an ETF, following the same playbook that took its Bitcoin trust public, and explains why rising AI-powered surveillance is the real catalyst driving renewed interest in financial privacy.

He also details the Ironwood upgrade's quantum resistance improvements, his ZEC targets, and why he's so bullish on the future of privacy related tokens.

Zach Pandl is the Head of Research at Grayscale, a leading digital assets asset manager known for pioneering trust-to-ETF conversions across Bitcoin, Ethereum, and now Zcash.

The Rollup is where the leaders of digital assets and finance converge. Live from the financial capital of the world.

Timestamps:

00:00 Intro

04:41 Cross-Chain Reach Via NEAR Intents

09:50 The Real Catalyst For Zcash

12:05 Ironwood And Quantum Resistance Upgrades

14:52 ZEC Trust To ETF Migration Mechanics

20:35 100% Of Fees Reinvested

Guest Socials:

Zach Pandl X: https://x.com/LowBeta

Grayscale X: https://x.com/grayscale

Grayscale Website: https://www.grayscale.com/

Partners:

If you run concentrated liquidity positions you know the grind. Price moves, you're out of range, you're rebalancing at, like, 3am. 1inch Aqua lets you take a different approach. You can stack multiple positions on the same token balance instead of babysitting a dozen pools, and your tokens never leave your wallet. Your liquidity stays awake, so you can catch up on your sleep. Check it out at https://1inch.com/aqua

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Dinari - Over 230 1:1 backed tokenized stocks, ETFs & more with dividends. US-based SEC transfer agent. Available on 5+ chains & via API. https://dinari.com/

---

Space and Time is providing verifiable data infrastructure for onchain finance. A decentralized database, blockchain indexer, and ZK coprocessor in one, giving DeFi protocols,stablecoins, and tokenized assets accurate, provable data.

---

Relay is the fastest and most reliable way to swap any token on any chain. Learn more here: https://relay.link/bridge

---

Zama is an open source cryptography company that builds state-of-the-art Fully Homomorphic Encryption (FHE) solutions for blockchain.

Learn more here: https://www.zama.org/

---

𝗪𝗲 𝘁𝗿𝘆 𝗼𝘂𝗿 𝗯𝗲𝘀𝘁 𝘁𝗼 𝗽𝗿𝗼𝗱𝘂𝗰𝗲 𝗵𝗶𝗴𝗵-𝗾𝘂𝗮𝗹𝗶𝘁𝘆, 𝗻𝗼𝗻-𝗯𝗶𝗮𝘀𝗲𝗱, 𝗲𝗱𝘂𝗰𝗮𝘁𝗶𝗼𝗻𝗮𝗹 𝗰𝗼𝗻𝘁𝗲𝗻𝘁 𝗳𝗼𝗿 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝗱𝗶𝗴𝗶𝘁𝗮𝗹 𝗮𝘀𝘀𝗲𝘁𝘀 𝗲𝗰𝗼𝘀𝘆𝘀𝘁𝗲𝗺. 𝗦𝘂𝗽𝗽𝗼𝗿𝘁 𝘂𝘀 𝗯𝘆 𝗰𝗹𝗶𝗰𝗸𝗶𝗻𝗴 𝗮𝗻𝘆 𝗼𝗳 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝗹𝗶𝗻𝗸𝘀 𝗯𝗲𝗹𝗼𝘄 𝗳𝗼𝗿 𝗳𝗿𝗲𝗲 𝗿𝗲𝘀𝗼𝘂𝗿𝗰𝗲𝘀:

Website: https://therollup.co/

Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/1P6ZeYd...

Podcast: https://therollup.co/category/podcast

Follow us on X: https://www.x.com/therollupco

Follow Rob on X: https://x.com/robbieklages

Follow Andy on X: https://x.com/andyyy

Join our TG group: https://t.me/+TsM1CRpWFgk1NGZh

The Rollup Disclosures: https://goodidea.ventures

𝗗𝗜𝗦𝗖𝗟𝗔𝗜𝗠𝗘𝗥: 𝘐𝘯𝘷𝘦𝘴𝘵𝘪𝘯𝘨 𝘪𝘯 𝘤𝘳𝘺𝘱𝘵𝘰𝘤𝘶𝘳𝘳𝘦𝘯𝘤𝘺 𝘢𝘯𝘥 𝘋𝘦𝘍𝘪 𝘱𝘭𝘢𝘵𝘧𝘰𝘳𝘮𝘴 𝘤𝘰𝘮𝘦𝘴 𝘸𝘪𝘵𝘩 𝘪𝘯𝘩𝘦𝘳𝘦𝘯𝘵 𝘳𝘪𝘴𝘬𝘴 𝘪𝘯𝘤𝘭𝘶𝘥𝘪𝘯𝘨 𝘵𝘦𝘤𝘩𝘯𝘪𝘤𝘢𝘭 𝘳𝘪𝘴𝘬, 𝘩𝘶𝘮𝘢𝘯 𝘦𝘳𝘳𝘰𝘳, 𝘱𝘭𝘢𝘵𝘧𝘰𝘳𝘮 𝘧𝘢𝘪𝘭𝘶𝘳𝘦 𝘢𝘯𝘥 𝘮𝘰𝘳𝘦. 𝘈𝘵 𝘤𝘦𝘳𝘵𝘢𝘪𝘯 𝘱𝘰𝘪𝘯𝘵𝘴 𝘵𝘩𝘳𝘰𝘶𝘨𝘩𝘰𝘶𝘵 𝘵𝘩𝘪𝘴 𝘤𝘩𝘢𝘯𝘯𝘦𝘭, 𝘸𝘦 𝘮𝘢𝘺 𝘦𝘢𝘳𝘯 𝘢 𝘤𝘰𝘮𝘮𝘪𝘴𝘴𝘪𝘰𝘯 𝘰𝘳 𝘧𝘦𝘦 𝘢𝘴 𝘢 𝘴𝘱𝘰𝘯𝘴𝘰𝘳𝘴𝘩𝘪𝘱, 𝘪𝘧 𝘵𝘩𝘪𝘴 𝘪𝘴 𝘵𝘩𝘦 𝘤𝘢𝘴𝘦 𝘸𝘦 𝘸𝘪𝘭𝘭 𝘢𝘭𝘸𝘢𝘺𝘴 𝘮𝘢𝘬𝘦 𝘴𝘶𝘳𝘦 𝘪𝘵 𝘪𝘴 𝘤𝘭𝘦𝘢𝘳. 𝘞𝘦 𝘢𝘳𝘦 𝘴𝘵𝘳𝘪𝘤𝘵𝘭𝘺 𝘢𝘯 𝘦𝘥𝘶𝘤𝘢𝘵𝘪𝘰𝘯𝘢𝘭 𝘤𝘰𝘯𝘵𝘦𝘯𝘵 𝘱𝘭𝘢𝘵𝘧𝘰𝘳𝘮, 𝘯𝘰𝘵𝘩𝘪𝘯𝘨 𝘸𝘦 𝘰𝘧𝘧𝘦𝘳 𝘪𝘴 𝘧𝘪𝘯𝘢𝘯𝘤𝘪𝘢𝘭 𝘢𝘥𝘷𝘪𝘤𝘦. 𝘞𝘦 𝘢𝘳𝘦 𝘯𝘰𝘵 𝘱𝘳𝘰𝘧𝘦𝘴𝘴𝘪𝘰𝘯𝘢𝘭𝘴 𝘰𝘳 𝘭𝘪𝘤𝘦𝘯𝘴𝘦𝘥 𝘢𝘥𝘷𝘪𝘴𝘰𝘳𝘴.

Alex Cutler breaks down how Coinbase's partnership with Aerodrome turned cbBTC into the top-traded Bitcoin venue onchain within a week, and explains why he believes the same playbook is about to repeat with tokenized equities at a $100 trillion addressable market. He also unpacks Coinbase's thesis that 10% of global GDP could move onchain within five years, and why he thinks true beneficial ownership structures represent a "leapfrog moment" over earlier synthetic tokenized stock attempts.

Alex Cutler is the Co-Founder of Aerodrome and CEO of Dromos Labs, the team behind the leading decentralized exchange on Base and a primary venue for trading tokenized equities.

The Rollup is where the leaders of digital assets and finance converge. Live from the financial capital of the world.

Timestamps:

00:00 Intro

09:22 Coinbase's Wrapped Bitcoin Playbook

13:43 The Revenue Meta Thesis

17:21 10% Of Global GDP Onchain

24:03 Real Ownership Vs Synthetic Tokens

26:04 Coinbase's Leapfrog Moment Explained

Guest Socials:

Alex Cutler X: https://x.com/wagmiAlexander

Aerodrome X: https://x.com/AerodromeFi

Aerodrome Website: https://aerodrome.finance/

Partners:

If you run concentrated liquidity positions you know the grind. Price moves, you're out of range, you're rebalancing at, like, 3am. 1inch Aqua lets you take a different approach. You can stack multiple positions on the same token balance instead of babysitting a dozen pools, and your tokens never leave your wallet. Your liquidity stays awake, so you can catch up on your sleep. Check it out at https://1inch.com/aqua

---

Dinari - Over 230 1:1 backed tokenized stocks, ETFs & more with dividends. US-based SEC transfer agent. Available on 5+ chains & via API. https://dinari.com/

---

Space and Time is providing verifiable data infrastructure for onchain finance. A decentralized database, blockchain indexer, and ZK coprocessor in one, giving DeFi protocols,stablecoins, and tokenized assets accurate, provable data.

---

Relay is the fastest and most reliable way to swap any token on any chain. Learn more here: https://relay.link/bridge

---

Zama is an open source cryptography company that builds state-of-the-art Fully Homomorphic Encryption (FHE) solutions for blockchain.

Learn more here: https://www.zama.org/

---

𝗪𝗲 𝘁𝗿𝘆 𝗼𝘂𝗿 𝗯𝗲𝘀𝘁 𝘁𝗼 𝗽𝗿𝗼𝗱𝘂𝗰𝗲 𝗵𝗶𝗴𝗵-𝗾𝘂𝗮𝗹𝗶𝘁𝘆, 𝗻𝗼𝗻-𝗯𝗶𝗮𝘀𝗲𝗱, 𝗲𝗱𝘂𝗰𝗮𝘁𝗶𝗼𝗻𝗮𝗹 𝗰𝗼𝗻𝘁𝗲𝗻𝘁 𝗳𝗼𝗿 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝗱𝗶𝗴𝗶𝘁𝗮𝗹 𝗮𝘀𝘀𝗲𝘁𝘀 𝗲𝗰𝗼𝘀𝘆𝘀𝘁𝗲𝗺. 𝗦𝘂𝗽𝗽𝗼𝗿𝘁 𝘂𝘀 𝗯𝘆 𝗰𝗹𝗶𝗰𝗸𝗶𝗻𝗴 𝗮𝗻𝘆 𝗼𝗳 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝗹𝗶𝗻𝗸𝘀 𝗯𝗲𝗹𝗼𝘄 𝗳𝗼𝗿 𝗳𝗿𝗲𝗲 𝗿𝗲𝘀𝗼𝘂𝗿𝗰𝗲𝘀:

Website: https://therollup.co/

Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/1P6ZeYd...

Podcast: https://therollup.co/category/podcast

Follow us on X: https://www.x.com/therollupco

Follow Rob on X: https://x.com/robbieklages

Follow Andy on X: https://x.com/andyyy

Join our TG group: https://t.me/+TsM1CRpWFgk1NGZh

The Rollup Disclosures: https://goodidea.ventures

.

𝗗𝗜𝗦𝗖𝗟𝗔𝗜𝗠𝗘𝗥: 𝘐𝘯𝘷𝘦𝘴𝘵𝘪𝘯𝘨 𝘪𝘯 𝘤𝘳𝘺𝘱𝘵𝘰𝘤𝘶𝘳𝘳𝘦𝘯𝘤𝘺 𝘢𝘯𝘥 𝘋𝘦𝘍𝘪 𝘱𝘭𝘢𝘵𝘧𝘰𝘳𝘮𝘴 𝘤𝘰𝘮𝘦𝘴 𝘸𝘪𝘵𝘩 𝘪𝘯𝘩𝘦𝘳𝘦𝘯𝘵 𝘳𝘪𝘴𝘬𝘴 𝘪𝘯𝘤𝘭𝘶𝘥𝘪𝘯𝘨 𝘵𝘦𝘤𝘩𝘯𝘪𝘤𝘢𝘭 𝘳𝘪𝘴𝘬, 𝘩𝘶𝘮𝘢𝘯 𝘦𝘳𝘳𝘰𝘳, 𝘱𝘭𝘢𝘵𝘧𝘰𝘳𝘮 𝘧𝘢𝘪𝘭𝘶𝘳𝘦 𝘢𝘯𝘥 𝘮𝘰𝘳𝘦. 𝘈𝘵 𝘤𝘦𝘳𝘵𝘢𝘪𝘯 𝘱𝘰𝘪𝘯𝘵𝘴 𝘵𝘩𝘳𝘰𝘶𝘨𝘩𝘰𝘶𝘵 𝘵𝘩𝘪𝘴 𝘤𝘩𝘢𝘯𝘯𝘦𝘭, 𝘸𝘦 𝘮𝘢𝘺 𝘦𝘢𝘳𝘯 𝘢 𝘤𝘰𝘮𝘮𝘪𝘴𝘴𝘪𝘰𝘯 𝘰𝘳 𝘧𝘦𝘦 𝘢𝘴 𝘢 𝘴𝘱𝘰𝘯𝘴𝘰𝘳𝘴𝘩𝘪𝘱, 𝘪𝘧 𝘵𝘩𝘪𝘴 𝘪𝘴 𝘵𝘩𝘦 𝘤𝘢𝘴𝘦 𝘸𝘦 𝘸𝘪𝘭𝘭 𝘢𝘭𝘸𝘢𝘺𝘴 𝘮𝘢𝘬𝘦 𝘴𝘶𝘳𝘦 𝘪𝘵 𝘪𝘴 𝘤𝘭𝘦𝘢𝘳. 𝘞𝘦 𝘢𝘳𝘦 𝘴𝘵𝘳𝘪𝘤𝘵𝘭𝘺 𝘢𝘯 𝘦𝘥𝘶𝘤𝘢𝘵𝘪𝘰𝘯𝘢𝘭 𝘤𝘰𝘯𝘵𝘦𝘯𝘵 𝘱𝘭𝘢𝘵𝘧𝘰𝘳𝘮, 𝘯𝘰𝘵𝘩𝘪𝘯𝘨 𝘸𝘦 𝘰𝘧𝘧𝘦𝘳 𝘪𝘴 𝘧𝘪𝘯𝘢𝘯𝘤𝘪𝘢𝘭 𝘢𝘥𝘷𝘪𝘤𝘦. 𝘞𝘦 𝘢𝘳𝘦 𝘯𝘰𝘵 𝘱𝘳𝘰𝘧𝘦𝘴𝘴𝘪𝘰𝘯𝘢𝘭𝘴 𝘰𝘳 𝘭𝘪𝘤𝘦𝘯𝘴𝘦𝘥 𝘢𝘥𝘷𝘪𝘴𝘰𝘳𝘴.

Circle's new agentic finance wizard Shafu Elfouly joins us to unpack why he's betting his career on the acceleration of agentic finance. He breaks down x402, the 30-year-old unused HTTP payment status code that stablecoins finally activated, letting AI agents pay for API access with one unified wallet instead of juggling dozens of subscriptions and API keys. He also takes us through Circle's full agent stack offering a glimpse into the future where anyone can deploy an agent with instant USDC payment access, and more.

Shafu Elfouly is a Staff Software Engineer at Circle, working on x402 and the infrastructure powering agentic commerce with USDC.

The Rollup is where the leaders of digital assets and finance converge. Live from the financial capital of the world.

Timestamps:

00:00 Intro

01:47 HTTP & x402 Payments Explained

03:32 Agents Will Spend Billions Online

05:05 99.9% Of Agentic Finance Is USDC

08:42 Integration Takes One Hour To Deploy

10:33 Circle Agent Stack Explained

12:09 Supply Side Is The Bottleneck Now

14:24 Everyone Will Have An Agentic

16:24 Circle & Anthropic Story

18:05 Open Standard Vs Closed Platforms

20:03 AOL Vs Open Internet

22:25 Millions of Agent Transfers Are Happening

24:32 Restaurant Reservations Via Agents

Partners:

If you run concentrated liquidity positions you know the grind. Price moves, you're out of range, you're rebalancing at, like, 3am. 1inch Aqua lets you take a different approach. You can stack multiple positions on the same token balance instead of babysitting a dozen pools, and your tokens never leave your wallet. Your liquidity stays awake, so you can catch up on your sleep. Check it out at https://1inch.com/aqua

---

Dinari - Over 230 1:1 backed tokenized stocks, ETFs & more with dividends. US-based SEC transfer agent. Available on 5+ chains & via API. https://dinari.com/

---

Space and Time is providing verifiable data infrastructure for onchain finance. A decentralized database, blockchain indexer, and ZK coprocessor in one, giving DeFi protocols,stablecoins, and tokenized assets accurate, provable data.

---

Relay is the fastest and most reliable way to swap any token on any chain. Learn more here: https://relay.link/bridge

---

Zama is an open source cryptography company that builds state-of-the-art Fully Homomorphic Encryption (FHE) solutions for blockchain.

Learn more here: https://www.zama.org/

---

𝗪𝗲 𝘁𝗿𝘆 𝗼𝘂𝗿 𝗯𝗲𝘀𝘁 𝘁𝗼 𝗽𝗿𝗼𝗱𝘂𝗰𝗲 𝗵𝗶𝗴𝗵-𝗾𝘂𝗮𝗹𝗶𝘁𝘆, 𝗻𝗼𝗻-𝗯𝗶𝗮𝘀𝗲𝗱, 𝗲𝗱𝘂𝗰𝗮𝘁𝗶𝗼𝗻𝗮𝗹 𝗰𝗼𝗻𝘁𝗲𝗻𝘁 𝗳𝗼𝗿 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝗱𝗶𝗴𝗶𝘁𝗮𝗹 𝗮𝘀𝘀𝗲𝘁𝘀 𝗲𝗰𝗼𝘀𝘆𝘀𝘁𝗲𝗺. 𝗦𝘂𝗽𝗽𝗼𝗿𝘁 𝘂𝘀 𝗯𝘆 𝗰𝗹𝗶𝗰𝗸𝗶𝗻𝗴 𝗮𝗻𝘆 𝗼𝗳 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝗹𝗶𝗻𝗸𝘀 𝗯𝗲𝗹𝗼𝘄 𝗳𝗼𝗿 𝗳𝗿𝗲𝗲 𝗿𝗲𝘀𝗼𝘂𝗿𝗰𝗲𝘀:

Website: https://therollup.co/

Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/1P6ZeYd...

Podcast: https://therollup.co/category/podcast

Follow us on X: https://www.x.com/therollupco

Follow Rob on X: https://x.com/robbieklages

Follow Andy on X: https://x.com/andyyy

Join our TG group: https://t.me/+TsM1CRpWFgk1NGZh

The Rollup Disclosures: https://goodidea.ventures

𝗗𝗜𝗦𝗖𝗟𝗔𝗜𝗠𝗘𝗥: 𝘐𝘯𝘷𝘦𝘴𝘵𝘪𝘯𝘨 𝘪𝘯 𝘤𝘳𝘺𝘱𝘵𝘰𝘤𝘶𝘳𝘳𝘦𝘯𝘤𝘺 𝘢𝘯𝘥 𝘋𝘦𝘍𝘪 𝘱𝘭𝘢𝘵𝘧𝘰𝘳𝘮𝘴 𝘤𝘰𝘮𝘦𝘴 𝘸𝘪𝘵𝘩 𝘪𝘯𝘩𝘦𝘳𝘦𝘯𝘵 𝘳𝘪𝘴𝘬𝘴 𝘪𝘯𝘤𝘭𝘶𝘥𝘪𝘯𝘨 𝘵𝘦𝘤𝘩𝘯𝘪𝘤𝘢𝘭 𝘳𝘪𝘴𝘬, 𝘩𝘶𝘮𝘢𝘯 𝘦𝘳𝘳𝘰𝘳, 𝘱𝘭𝘢𝘵𝘧𝘰𝘳𝘮 𝘧𝘢𝘪𝘭𝘶𝘳𝘦 𝘢𝘯𝘥 𝘮𝘰𝘳𝘦. 𝘈𝘵 𝘤𝘦𝘳𝘵𝘢𝘪𝘯 𝘱𝘰𝘪𝘯𝘵𝘴 𝘵𝘩𝘳𝘰𝘶𝘨𝘩𝘰𝘶𝘵 𝘵𝘩𝘪𝘴 𝘤𝘩𝘢𝘯𝘯𝘦𝘭, 𝘸𝘦 𝘮𝘢𝘺 𝘦𝘢𝘳𝘯 𝘢 𝘤𝘰𝘮𝘮𝘪𝘴𝘴𝘪𝘰𝘯 𝘰𝘳 𝘧𝘦𝘦 𝘢𝘴 𝘢 𝘴𝘱𝘰𝘯𝘴𝘰𝘳𝘴𝘩𝘪𝘱, 𝘪𝘧 𝘵𝘩𝘪𝘴 𝘪𝘴 𝘵𝘩𝘦 𝘤𝘢𝘴𝘦 𝘸𝘦 𝘸𝘪𝘭𝘭 𝘢𝘭𝘸𝘢𝘺𝘴 𝘮𝘢𝘬𝘦 𝘴𝘶𝘳𝘦 𝘪𝘵 𝘪𝘴 𝘤𝘭𝘦𝘢𝘳. 𝘞𝘦 𝘢𝘳𝘦 𝘴𝘵𝘳𝘪𝘤𝘵𝘭𝘺 𝘢𝘯 𝘦𝘥𝘶𝘤𝘢𝘵𝘪𝘰𝘯𝘢𝘭 𝘤𝘰𝘯𝘵𝘦𝘯𝘵 𝘱𝘭𝘢𝘵𝘧𝘰𝘳𝘮, 𝘯𝘰𝘵𝘩𝘪𝘯𝘨 𝘸𝘦 𝘰𝘧𝘧𝘦𝘳 𝘪𝘴 𝘧𝘪𝘯𝘢𝘯𝘤𝘪𝘢𝘭 𝘢𝘥𝘷𝘪𝘤𝘦. 𝘞𝘦 𝘢𝘳𝘦 𝘯𝘰𝘵 𝘱𝘳𝘰𝘧𝘦𝘴𝘴𝘪𝘰𝘯𝘢𝘭𝘴 𝘰𝘳 𝘭𝘪𝘤𝘦𝘯𝘴𝘦𝘥 𝘢𝘥𝘷𝘪𝘴𝘰𝘳𝘴.

ARKInvest Digital Asset team Raye Hadi and Lorenzo Valente join us for a state of digital assets special. We debate whether token buybacks actually create value or if the correlation with top performers is just circular logic. They also tackle the trillion dollar question: whether Solana and Ethereum even need to capture fee revenue if they're hosting trillions in assets, and why Hyperliquid's app-layer monetization model might be the smarter blueprint than base-layer fees.

Raye Hadi is a Research Associate in Digital Assets at ARK Invest. Lorenzo Valente is the Director of Research at ARK Invest, a leading investment firm known for its research on disruptive innovation including digital assets.

The Rollup is where the leaders of digital assets and finance converge. Live from the financial capital of the world.

Timestamps:

00:00 Intro

02:52 Perps, Tokenization, Stablecoins, Vaults

07:21 Crypto Equities Vs Tokens Debate

16:03 Regulatory Path Dependency Debate

17:06 Buybacks Correlate With Revenue

19:27 Are Buybacks Actually Stupid

28:12 Do L1s Even Need Revenue

30:11 Does Solana Need To Make Money

30:54 Hyperliquid Internalizes Stablecoin Yield

38:56 Sizing The Meme Coin Market

41:06 Debating Zcash's Place In The Barbell

46:44 Why Privacy And Self Custody Matter

Guest Socials:

Lorenzo Valente X: https://x.com/LorenzoARK

Raye Hadi X: https://x.com/rhadiARK

ARK Invest X: https://x.com/ARKinvest

ARK Invest Website: https://www.ark-invest.com/

Partners:

If you run concentrated liquidity positions you know the grind. Price moves, you're out of range, you're rebalancing at, like, 3am. 1inch Aqua lets you take a different approach. You can stack multiple positions on the same token balance instead of babysitting a dozen pools, and your tokens never leave your wallet. Your liquidity stays awake, so you can catch up on your sleep. Check it out at https://1inch.com/aqua

---

Dinari - Over 230 1:1 backed tokenized stocks, ETFs & more with dividends. US-based SEC transfer agent. Available on 5+ chains & via API. https://dinari.com/

---

Space and Time is providing verifiable data infrastructure for onchain finance. A decentralized database, blockchain indexer, and ZK coprocessor in one, giving DeFi protocols,stablecoins, and tokenized assets accurate, provable data.

---

Relay is the fastest and most reliable way to swap any token on any chain. Learn more here: https://relay.link/bridge

---

Zama is an open source cryptography company that builds state-of-the-art Fully Homomorphic Encryption (FHE) solutions for blockchain.

Learn more here: https://www.zama.org/

---

𝗪𝗲 𝘁𝗿𝘆 𝗼𝘂𝗿 𝗯𝗲𝘀𝘁 𝘁𝗼 𝗽𝗿𝗼𝗱𝘂𝗰𝗲 𝗵𝗶𝗴𝗵-𝗾𝘂𝗮𝗹𝗶𝘁𝘆, 𝗻𝗼𝗻-𝗯𝗶𝗮𝘀𝗲𝗱, 𝗲𝗱𝘂𝗰𝗮𝘁𝗶𝗼𝗻𝗮𝗹 𝗰𝗼𝗻𝘁𝗲𝗻𝘁. 𝗦𝘂𝗽𝗽𝗼𝗿𝘁 𝘂𝘀 𝗯𝘆 𝗰𝗹𝗶𝗰𝗸𝗶𝗻𝗴 𝗮𝗻𝘆 𝗼𝗳 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝗹𝗶𝗻𝗸𝘀 𝗯𝗲𝗹𝗼𝘄:

Website: https://therollup.co/

Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/1P6ZeYd...

Podcast: https://therollup.co/category/podcast

Follow us on X: https://www.x.com/therollupco

Follow Rob on X: https://x.com/robbieklages

Follow Andy on X: https://x.com/andyyy

Join our TG group: https://t.me/+TsM1CRpWFgk1NGZh

The Rollup Disclosures: https://goodidea.ventures

𝗗𝗜𝗦𝗖𝗟𝗔𝗜𝗠𝗘𝗥: 𝘐𝘯𝘷𝘦𝘴𝘵𝘪𝘯𝘨 𝘪𝘯 𝘤𝘳𝘺𝘱𝘵𝘰𝘤𝘶𝘳𝘳𝘦𝘯𝘤𝘺 𝘢𝘯𝘥 𝘋𝘦𝘍𝘪 𝘱𝘭𝘢𝘵𝘧𝘰𝘳𝘮𝘴 𝘤𝘰𝘮𝘦𝘴 𝘸𝘪𝘵𝘩 𝘪𝘯𝘩𝘦𝘳𝘦𝘯𝘵 𝘳𝘪𝘴𝘬𝘴 𝘪𝘯𝘤𝘭𝘶𝘥𝘪𝘯𝘨 𝘵𝘦𝘤𝘩𝘯𝘪𝘤𝘢𝘭 𝘳𝘪𝘴𝘬, 𝘩𝘶𝘮𝘢𝘯 𝘦𝘳𝘳𝘰𝘳, 𝘱𝘭𝘢𝘵𝘧𝘰𝘳𝘮 𝘧𝘢𝘪𝘭𝘶𝘳𝘦 𝘢𝘯𝘥 𝘮𝘰𝘳𝘦. 𝘈𝘵 𝘤𝘦𝘳𝘵𝘢𝘪𝘯 𝘱𝘰𝘪𝘯𝘵𝘴 𝘵𝘩𝘳𝘰𝘶𝘨𝘩𝘰𝘶𝘵 𝘵𝘩𝘪𝘴 𝘤𝘩𝘢𝘯𝘯𝘦𝘭, 𝘸𝘦 𝘮𝘢𝘺 𝘦𝘢𝘳𝘯 𝘢 𝘤𝘰𝘮𝘮𝘪𝘴𝘴𝘪𝘰𝘯 𝘰𝘳 𝘧𝘦𝘦 𝘢𝘴 𝘢 𝘴𝘱𝘰𝘯𝘴𝘰𝘳𝘴𝘩𝘪𝘱, 𝘪𝘧 𝘵𝘩𝘪𝘴 𝘪𝘴 𝘵𝘩𝘦 𝘤𝘢𝘴𝘦 𝘸𝘦 𝘸𝘪𝘭𝘭 𝘢𝘭𝘸𝘢𝘺𝘴 𝘮𝘢𝘬𝘦 𝘴𝘶𝘳𝘦 𝘪𝘵 𝘪𝘴 𝘤𝘭𝘦𝘢𝘳. 𝘞𝘦 𝘢𝘳𝘦 𝘴𝘵𝘳𝘪𝘤𝘵𝘭𝘺 𝘢𝘯 𝘦𝘥𝘶𝘤𝘢𝘵𝘪𝘰𝘯𝘢𝘭 𝘤𝘰𝘯𝘵𝘦𝘯𝘵 𝘱𝘭𝘢𝘵𝘧𝘰𝘳𝘮, 𝘯𝘰𝘵𝘩𝘪𝘯𝘨 𝘸𝘦 𝘰𝘧𝘧𝘦𝘳 𝘪𝘴 𝘧𝘪𝘯𝘢𝘯𝘤𝘪𝘢𝘭 𝘢𝘥𝘷𝘪𝘤𝘦. 𝘞𝘦 𝘢𝘳𝘦 𝘯𝘰𝘵 𝘱𝘳𝘰𝘧𝘦𝘴𝘴𝘪𝘰𝘯𝘢𝘭𝘴 𝘰𝘳 𝘭𝘪𝘤𝘦𝘯𝘴𝘦𝘥 𝘢𝘥𝘷𝘪𝘴𝘰𝘳𝘴.

Mert Mumtaz and Dev, the Osmosis founder now leading Zcash scaling at Valor Group, join us to explain the massive developments in Zcash as of late.

The two of them break down how over 90% of Zcash's supply migrated out of the Orchard pool following the Ironwood upgrade, addressing the vulnerability fears that spread across the community. They also unpack the upcoming Tachyon upgrade's post-quantum vision, and exactly how Zcash will get there.

Mert Mumtaz is the CEO of Helius, a leading Solana infrastructure provider.

Dev is the Founder of Osmosis and now leads Valor Group, a company dedicated to scaling Zcash.

The Rollup is where the leaders of digital assets and finance converge. Live from the financial capital of the world.

Timestamps:

00:00 Intro

04:13 90% Of Zcash Migrated From Orchard Pool

07:27 What Actually Happened?

10:03 Formal Verification Explained

14:07 Zcash Is Still Early

19:56 ZK Explainer

22:53 Quantum Resistance Claims

25:16 One Big Upgrade Coming

31:02 Will Bitcoin Be Ready For Quantum?

Guest Socials:

Mert X: https://x.com/mert

Helius X: https://x.com/Helius

Helius Website: https://www.helius.dev/

Dev X: https://x.com/zkDragon

Osmosis X: https://x.com/osmosis

Osmosis Website: https://osmosis.zone/

Partners:

If you run concentrated liquidity positions you know the grind. Price moves, you're out of range, you're rebalancing at, like, 3am. 1inch Aqua lets you take a different approach. You can stack multiple positions on the same token balance instead of babysitting a dozen pools, and your tokens never leave your wallet. Your liquidity stays awake, so you can catch up on your sleep. Check it out at https://1inch.com/aqua

---

Dinari - Over 230 1:1 backed tokenized stocks, ETFs & more with dividends. US-based SEC transfer agent. Available on 5+ chains & via API. https://dinari.com/

---

Space and Time is providing verifiable data infrastructure for onchain finance. A decentralized database, blockchain indexer, and ZK coprocessor in one, giving DeFi protocols,stablecoins, and tokenized assets accurate, provable data.

---

Relay is the fastest and most reliable way to swap any token on any chain. Learn more here: https://relay.link/bridge

---

Zama is an open source cryptography company that builds state-of-the-art Fully Homomorphic Encryption (FHE) solutions for blockchain.

Learn more here: https://www.zama.org/

---

𝗪𝗲 𝘁𝗿𝘆 𝗼𝘂𝗿 𝗯𝗲𝘀𝘁 𝘁𝗼 𝗽𝗿𝗼𝗱𝘂𝗰𝗲 𝗵𝗶𝗴𝗵-𝗾𝘂𝗮𝗹𝗶𝘁𝘆, 𝗻𝗼𝗻-𝗯𝗶𝗮𝘀𝗲𝗱, 𝗲𝗱𝘂𝗰𝗮𝘁𝗶𝗼𝗻𝗮𝗹 𝗰𝗼𝗻𝘁𝗲𝗻𝘁 𝗳𝗼𝗿 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝗱𝗶𝗴𝗶𝘁𝗮𝗹 𝗮𝘀𝘀𝗲𝘁𝘀 𝗲𝗰𝗼𝘀𝘆𝘀𝘁𝗲𝗺. 𝗦𝘂𝗽𝗽𝗼𝗿𝘁 𝘂𝘀 𝗯𝘆 𝗰𝗹𝗶𝗰𝗸𝗶𝗻𝗴 𝗮𝗻𝘆 𝗼𝗳 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝗹𝗶𝗻𝗸𝘀 𝗯𝗲𝗹𝗼𝘄 𝗳𝗼𝗿 𝗳𝗿𝗲𝗲 𝗿𝗲𝘀𝗼𝘂𝗿𝗰𝗲𝘀:

Website: https://therollup.co/

Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/1P6ZeYd...

Podcast: https://therollup.co/category/podcast

Follow us on X: https://www.x.com/therollupco

Follow Rob on X: https://x.com/robbieklages

Follow Andy on X: https://x.com/andyyy

Join our TG group: https://t.me/+TsM1CRpWFgk1NGZh

The Rollup Disclosures: https://goodidea.ventures

𝗗𝗜𝗦𝗖𝗟𝗔𝗜𝗠𝗘𝗥: 𝘐𝘯𝘷𝘦𝘴𝘵𝘪𝘯𝘨 𝘪𝘯 𝘤𝘳𝘺𝘱𝘵𝘰𝘤𝘶𝘳𝘳𝘦𝘯𝘤𝘺 𝘢𝘯𝘥 𝘋𝘦𝘍𝘪 𝘱𝘭𝘢𝘵𝘧𝘰𝘳𝘮𝘴 𝘤𝘰𝘮𝘦𝘴 𝘸𝘪𝘵𝘩 𝘪𝘯𝘩𝘦𝘳𝘦𝘯𝘵 𝘳𝘪𝘴𝘬𝘴 𝘪𝘯𝘤𝘭𝘶𝘥𝘪𝘯𝘨 𝘵𝘦𝘤𝘩𝘯𝘪𝘤𝘢𝘭 𝘳𝘪𝘴𝘬, 𝘩𝘶𝘮𝘢𝘯 𝘦𝘳𝘳𝘰𝘳, 𝘱𝘭𝘢𝘵𝘧𝘰𝘳𝘮 𝘧𝘢𝘪𝘭𝘶𝘳𝘦 𝘢𝘯𝘥 𝘮𝘰𝘳𝘦. 𝘈𝘵 𝘤𝘦𝘳𝘵𝘢𝘪𝘯 𝘱𝘰𝘪𝘯𝘵𝘴 𝘵𝘩𝘳𝘰𝘶𝘨𝘩𝘰𝘶𝘵 𝘵𝘩𝘪𝘴 𝘤𝘩𝘢𝘯𝘯𝘦𝘭, 𝘸𝘦 𝘮𝘢𝘺 𝘦𝘢𝘳𝘯 𝘢 𝘤𝘰𝘮𝘮𝘪𝘴𝘴𝘪𝘰𝘯 𝘰𝘳 𝘧𝘦𝘦 𝘢𝘴 𝘢 𝘴𝘱𝘰𝘯𝘴𝘰𝘳𝘴𝘩𝘪𝘱, 𝘪𝘧 𝘵𝘩𝘪𝘴 𝘪𝘴 𝘵𝘩𝘦 𝘤𝘢𝘴𝘦 𝘸𝘦 𝘸𝘪𝘭𝘭 𝘢𝘭𝘸𝘢𝘺𝘴 𝘮𝘢𝘬𝘦 𝘴𝘶𝘳𝘦 𝘪𝘵 𝘪𝘴 𝘤𝘭𝘦𝘢𝘳. 𝘞𝘦 𝘢𝘳𝘦 𝘴𝘵𝘳𝘪𝘤𝘵𝘭𝘺 𝘢𝘯 𝘦𝘥𝘶𝘤𝘢𝘵𝘪𝘰𝘯𝘢𝘭 𝘤𝘰𝘯𝘵𝘦𝘯𝘵 𝘱𝘭𝘢𝘵𝘧𝘰𝘳𝘮, 𝘯𝘰𝘵𝘩𝘪𝘯𝘨 𝘸𝘦 𝘰𝘧𝘧𝘦𝘳 𝘪𝘴 𝘧𝘪𝘯𝘢𝘯𝘤𝘪𝘢𝘭 𝘢𝘥𝘷𝘪𝘤𝘦. 𝘞𝘦 𝘢𝘳𝘦 𝘯𝘰𝘵 𝘱𝘳𝘰𝘧𝘦𝘴𝘴𝘪𝘰𝘯𝘢𝘭𝘴 𝘰𝘳 𝘭𝘪𝘤𝘦𝘯𝘴𝘦𝘥 𝘢𝘥𝘷𝘪𝘴𝘰𝘳𝘴.

Rain Co-Founder Charles Yoo-Naut joins us for a look underneath the exploding neobank sector, which has exploded from $5m/month to $250m+/month in crypto-card volume in less than a year.

He breaks down how Rain went from a stablecoin-backed card issuer for crypto-native DAOs to a platform powering over 200 card programs, including a landmark partnership with Western Union and more.

Charles Yoo-Naut is the Co-Founder and CTO of Rain, a stablecoin-backed card issuing platform that powers programs for Western Union and 200+ other partners.

The Rollup is where the leaders of digital assets and finance converge. Live from the financial capital of the world.

Timestamps:

00:00 Intro

02:52 Stablecoins Spent Instantly On Visa

04:09 Built For Underbanked Digital Asset Teams

05:16 200 Programs Now Powered By Rain

09:44 Rain Powers Western Union Cards

12:27 How Rain Makes Money

15:00 Stablecoin Spend Data Revealed

18:00 Genius Act Impact On Rain

21:00 Compliance Licensing Takes Years

24:00 You Cannot Vibe Code Rain

28:23 Co-Founder Dynamic Explained

30:31 Building With AI From Day One

Guest Socials:

Charles Yoo-Naut X: https://x.com/cnaut

Rain X: https://x.com/raincards

Rain Website: https://www.rain.xyz/

Partners:

If you run concentrated liquidity positions you know the grind. Price moves, you're out of range, you're rebalancing at, like, 3am. 1inch Aqua lets you take a different approach. You can stack multiple positions on the same token balance instead of babysitting a dozen pools, and your tokens never leave your wallet. Your liquidity stays awake, so you can catch up on your sleep. Check it out at https://1inch.com/aqua

---

Dinari - Over 230 1:1 backed tokenized stocks, ETFs & more with dividends. US-based SEC transfer agent. Available on 5+ chains & via API. https://dinari.com/

---

Space and Time is providing verifiable data infrastructure for onchain finance. A decentralized database, blockchain indexer, and ZK coprocessor in one, giving DeFi protocols,stablecoins, and tokenized assets accurate, provable data.

Learn more here: https://www.spaceandtime.io/

---

Relay is the fastest and most reliable way to swap any token on any chain. Learn more here: https://relay.link/bridge

---

Zama is an open source cryptography company that builds state-of-the-art Fully Homomorphic Encryption (FHE) solutions for blockchain.

Learn more here: https://www.zama.org/

---

𝗪𝗲 𝘁𝗿𝘆 𝗼𝘂𝗿 𝗯𝗲𝘀𝘁 𝘁𝗼 𝗽𝗿𝗼𝗱𝘂𝗰𝗲 𝗵𝗶𝗴𝗵-𝗾𝘂𝗮𝗹𝗶𝘁𝘆, 𝗻𝗼𝗻-𝗯𝗶𝗮𝘀𝗲𝗱, 𝗲𝗱𝘂𝗰𝗮𝘁𝗶𝗼𝗻𝗮𝗹 𝗰𝗼𝗻𝘁𝗲𝗻𝘁 𝗳𝗼𝗿 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝗱𝗶𝗴𝗶𝘁𝗮𝗹 𝗮𝘀𝘀𝗲𝘁𝘀 𝗲𝗰𝗼𝘀𝘆𝘀𝘁𝗲𝗺. 𝗦𝘂𝗽𝗽𝗼𝗿𝘁 𝘂𝘀 𝗯𝘆 𝗰𝗹𝗶𝗰𝗸𝗶𝗻𝗴 𝗮𝗻𝘆 𝗼𝗳 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝗹𝗶𝗻𝗸𝘀 𝗯𝗲𝗹𝗼𝘄 𝗳𝗼𝗿 𝗳𝗿𝗲𝗲 𝗿𝗲𝘀𝗼𝘂𝗿𝗰𝗲𝘀:

Website: https://therollup.co/

Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/1P6ZeYd...

Podcast: https://therollup.co/category/podcast

Follow us on X: https://www.x.com/therollupco

Follow Rob on X: https://x.com/robbieklages

Follow Andy on X: https://x.com/andyyy

Join our TG group: https://t.me/+TsM1CRpWFgk1NGZh

The Rollup Disclosures: https://goodidea.ventures

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.

.

𝗗𝗜𝗦𝗖𝗟𝗔𝗜𝗠𝗘𝗥: 𝘐𝘯𝘷𝘦𝘴𝘵𝘪𝘯𝘨 𝘪𝘯 𝘤𝘳𝘺𝘱𝘵𝘰𝘤𝘶𝘳𝘳𝘦𝘯𝘤𝘺 𝘢𝘯𝘥 𝘋𝘦𝘍𝘪 𝘱𝘭𝘢𝘵𝘧𝘰𝘳𝘮𝘴 𝘤𝘰𝘮𝘦𝘴 𝘸𝘪𝘵𝘩 𝘪𝘯𝘩𝘦𝘳𝘦𝘯𝘵 𝘳𝘪𝘴𝘬𝘴 𝘪𝘯𝘤𝘭𝘶𝘥𝘪𝘯𝘨 𝘵𝘦𝘤𝘩𝘯𝘪𝘤𝘢𝘭 𝘳𝘪𝘴𝘬, 𝘩𝘶𝘮𝘢𝘯 𝘦𝘳𝘳𝘰𝘳, 𝘱𝘭𝘢𝘵𝘧𝘰𝘳𝘮 𝘧𝘢𝘪𝘭𝘶𝘳𝘦 𝘢𝘯𝘥 𝘮𝘰𝘳𝘦. 𝘈𝘵 𝘤𝘦𝘳𝘵𝘢𝘪𝘯 𝘱𝘰𝘪𝘯𝘵𝘴 𝘵𝘩𝘳𝘰𝘶𝘨𝘩𝘰𝘶𝘵 𝘵𝘩𝘪𝘴 𝘤𝘩𝘢𝘯𝘯𝘦𝘭, 𝘸𝘦 𝘮𝘢𝘺 𝘦𝘢𝘳𝘯 𝘢 𝘤𝘰𝘮𝘮𝘪𝘴𝘴𝘪𝘰𝘯 𝘰𝘳 𝘧𝘦𝘦 𝘢𝘴 𝘢 𝘴𝘱𝘰𝘯𝘴𝘰𝘳𝘴𝘩𝘪𝘱, 𝘪𝘧 𝘵𝘩𝘪𝘴 𝘪𝘴 𝘵𝘩𝘦 𝘤𝘢𝘴𝘦 𝘸𝘦 𝘸𝘪𝘭𝘭 𝘢𝘭𝘸𝘢𝘺𝘴 𝘮𝘢𝘬𝘦 𝘴𝘶𝘳𝘦 𝘪𝘵 𝘪𝘴 𝘤𝘭𝘦𝘢𝘳. 𝘞𝘦 𝘢𝘳𝘦 𝘴𝘵𝘳𝘪𝘤𝘵𝘭𝘺 𝘢𝘯 𝘦𝘥𝘶𝘤𝘢𝘵𝘪𝘰𝘯𝘢𝘭 𝘤𝘰𝘯𝘵𝘦𝘯𝘵 𝘱𝘭𝘢𝘵𝘧𝘰𝘳𝘮, 𝘯𝘰𝘵𝘩𝘪𝘯𝘨 𝘸𝘦 𝘰𝘧𝘧𝘦𝘳 𝘪𝘴 𝘧𝘪𝘯𝘢𝘯𝘤𝘪𝘢𝘭 𝘢𝘥𝘷𝘪𝘤𝘦. 𝘞𝘦 𝘢𝘳𝘦 𝘯𝘰𝘵 𝘱𝘳𝘰𝘧𝘦𝘴𝘴𝘪𝘰𝘯𝘢𝘭𝘴 𝘰𝘳 𝘭𝘪𝘤𝘦𝘯𝘴𝘦𝘥 𝘢𝘥𝘷𝘪𝘴𝘰𝘳𝘴.

How this was made

Robbie and Andy debate Morpho founder Paul Frambot's controversial take that token buybacks are "shooting yourself in the foot" versus the market's clear reward for programmatic buybacks from Hyperliquid, Lighter, and Pump. They break down Luca Prosperi's corporate finance framework for when buybacks make sense based on market conditions and return on equity, and make the case that too many projects launched tokens before they had a business generating enough revenue to justify one.

The Rollup is where the leaders of digital assets and finance converge. Live from the financial capital of the world.

Timestamps:

00:00 Intro

02:56 Only 5% Of Tokens Qualify

06:16 If You Need Growth, Skip The Token

08:40 Lighter, Hyperliquid, Pump Lead Performance

13:54 Programmable Vs Arbitrary Buybacks

19:23 Applying This To The Rollup Itself

22:45 Too Many Tokens Launched Too Early

Partners:

If you run concentrated liquidity positions you know the grind. Price moves, you're out of range, you're rebalancing at, like, 3am. 1inch Aqua lets you take a different approach. You can stack multiple positions on the same token balance instead of babysitting a dozen pools, and your tokens never leave your wallet. Your liquidity stays awake, so you can catch up on your sleep. Check it out at https://1inch.com/aqua

---

Dinari - Over 230 1:1 backed tokenized stocks, ETFs & more with dividends. US-based SEC transfer agent. Available on 5+ chains & via API. https://dinari.com/

---

Space and Time is providing verifiable data infrastructure for onchain finance. A decentralized database, blockchain indexer, and ZK coprocessor in one, giving DeFi protocols,stablecoins, and tokenized assets accurate, provable data.

Learn more here: https://www.spaceandtime.io/

---

Relay is the fastest and most reliable way to swap any token on any chain. Learn more here: https://relay.link/bridge

---

Zama is an open source cryptography company that builds state-of-the-art Fully Homomorphic Encryption (FHE) solutions for blockchain.

Learn more here: https://www.zama.org/

---

𝗪𝗲 𝘁𝗿𝘆 𝗼𝘂𝗿 𝗯𝗲𝘀𝘁 𝘁𝗼 𝗽𝗿𝗼𝗱𝘂𝗰𝗲 𝗵𝗶𝗴𝗵-𝗾𝘂𝗮𝗹𝗶𝘁𝘆, 𝗻𝗼𝗻-𝗯𝗶𝗮𝘀𝗲𝗱, 𝗲𝗱𝘂𝗰𝗮𝘁𝗶𝗼𝗻𝗮𝗹 𝗰𝗼𝗻𝘁𝗲𝗻𝘁 𝗳𝗼𝗿 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝗱𝗶𝗴𝗶𝘁𝗮𝗹 𝗮𝘀𝘀𝗲𝘁𝘀 𝗲𝗰𝗼𝘀𝘆𝘀𝘁𝗲𝗺. 𝗦𝘂𝗽𝗽𝗼𝗿𝘁 𝘂𝘀 𝗯𝘆 𝗰𝗹𝗶𝗰𝗸𝗶𝗻𝗴 𝗮𝗻𝘆 𝗼𝗳 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝗹𝗶𝗻𝗸𝘀 𝗯𝗲𝗹𝗼𝘄 𝗳𝗼𝗿 𝗳𝗿𝗲𝗲 𝗿𝗲𝘀𝗼𝘂𝗿𝗰𝗲𝘀:

Website: https://therollup.co/

Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/1P6ZeYd...

Podcast: https://therollup.co/category/podcast

Follow us on X: https://www.x.com/therollupco

Follow Rob on X: https://x.com/robbieklages

Follow Andy on X: https://x.com/andyyy

Join our TG group: https://t.me/+TsM1CRpWFgk1NGZh

The Rollup Disclosures: https://goodidea.ventures

𝗗𝗜𝗦𝗖𝗟𝗔𝗜𝗠𝗘𝗥: 𝘐𝘯𝘷𝘦𝘴𝘵𝘪𝘯𝘨 𝘪𝘯 𝘤𝘳𝘺𝘱𝘵𝘰𝘤𝘶𝘳𝘳𝘦𝘯𝘤𝘺 𝘢𝘯𝘥 𝘋𝘦𝘍𝘪 𝘱𝘭𝘢𝘵𝘧𝘰𝘳𝘮𝘴 𝘤𝘰𝘮𝘦𝘴 𝘸𝘪𝘵𝘩 𝘪𝘯𝘩𝘦𝘳𝘦𝘯𝘵 𝘳𝘪𝘴𝘬𝘴 𝘪𝘯𝘤𝘭𝘶𝘥𝘪𝘯𝘨 𝘵𝘦𝘤𝘩𝘯𝘪𝘤𝘢𝘭 𝘳𝘪𝘴𝘬, 𝘩𝘶𝘮𝘢𝘯 𝘦𝘳𝘳𝘰𝘳, 𝘱𝘭𝘢𝘵𝘧𝘰𝘳𝘮 𝘧𝘢𝘪𝘭𝘶𝘳𝘦 𝘢𝘯𝘥 𝘮𝘰𝘳𝘦. 𝘈𝘵 𝘤𝘦𝘳𝘵𝘢𝘪𝘯 𝘱𝘰𝘪𝘯𝘵𝘴 𝘵𝘩𝘳𝘰𝘶𝘨𝘩𝘰𝘶𝘵 𝘵𝘩𝘪𝘴 𝘤𝘩𝘢𝘯𝘯𝘦𝘭, 𝘸𝘦 𝘮𝘢𝘺 𝘦𝘢𝘳𝘯 𝘢 𝘤𝘰𝘮𝘮𝘪𝘴𝘴𝘪𝘰𝘯 𝘰𝘳 𝘧𝘦𝘦 𝘢𝘴 𝘢 𝘴𝘱𝘰𝘯𝘴𝘰𝘳𝘴𝘩𝘪𝘱, 𝘪𝘧 𝘵𝘩𝘪𝘴 𝘪𝘴 𝘵𝘩𝘦 𝘤𝘢𝘴𝘦 𝘸𝘦 𝘸𝘪𝘭𝘭 𝘢𝘭𝘸𝘢𝘺𝘴 𝘮𝘢𝘬𝘦 𝘴𝘶𝘳𝘦 𝘪𝘵 𝘪𝘴 𝘤𝘭𝘦𝘢𝘳. 𝘞𝘦 𝘢𝘳𝘦 𝘴𝘵𝘳𝘪𝘤𝘵𝘭𝘺 𝘢𝘯 𝘦𝘥𝘶𝘤𝘢𝘵𝘪𝘰𝘯𝘢𝘭 𝘤𝘰𝘯𝘵𝘦𝘯𝘵 𝘱𝘭𝘢𝘵𝘧𝘰𝘳𝘮, 𝘯𝘰𝘵𝘩𝘪𝘯𝘨 𝘸𝘦 𝘰𝘧𝘧𝘦𝘳 𝘪𝘴 𝘧𝘪𝘯𝘢𝘯𝘤𝘪𝘢𝘭 𝘢𝘥𝘷𝘪𝘤𝘦. 𝘞𝘦 𝘢𝘳𝘦 𝘯𝘰𝘵 𝘱𝘳𝘰𝘧𝘦𝘴𝘴𝘪𝘰𝘯𝘢𝘭𝘴 𝘰𝘳 𝘭𝘪𝘤𝘦𝘯𝘴𝘦𝘥 𝘢𝘥𝘷𝘪𝘴𝘰𝘳𝘴.

Joseph Chalom and Kean Gilbert break down why SharpLink staked $200 million in ETH through Lido, making the case that unlike Bitcoin, Ethereum is a natively productive asset that treasury companies have a duty to put to work. They unpack why a proposal to cut Ethereum's staking issuance would undermine the risk-free rate anchoring DeFi lending and push institutions toward competitors like Solana, and explain why native yield is becoming the standard institutional playbook for ETH exposure.

Joseph Chalom is the CEO of SharpLink, one of the largest corporate treasury holders of Ethereum. Kean Gilbert is the Head of Institutional Relations at Lido, the largest liquid staking protocol on Ethereum.

The Rollup is where the leaders of digital assets and finance converge. Live from the financial capital of the world.

Timestamps:

00:00 Intro

05:41 Making ETH Fully Productive

08:39 Ethereum's Issuance Reduction Proposal

11:00 Why A Third Of ETH Stays Onchain

14:01 Rise Of Institutional Staking Products

19:19 Revenue And Token Value

23:50 Fidelity Adds Ethereum Staking

28:41 Permanent Capital Beats Trumps All

Guest Socials:

Joseph Chalom X: https://x.com/joechalom

Sharplink X: https://x.com/Sharplink

Sharplink Website: https://www.sharplink.com/

Kean Gilbert X: https://x.com/Kean_Gilbert

Lido X: https://x.com/LidoFinance

Lido Website: https://lido.fi/

Partners:

If you run concentrated liquidity positions you know the grind. Price moves, you're out of range, you're rebalancing at, like, 3am. 1inch Aqua lets you take a different approach. You can stack multiple positions on the same token balance instead of babysitting a dozen pools, and your tokens never leave your wallet. Your liquidity stays awake, so you can catch up on your sleep. Check it out at https://1inch.com/aqua

---

Dinari - Over 230 1:1 backed tokenized stocks, ETFs & more with dividends. US-based SEC transfer agent. Available on 5+ chains & via API. https://dinari.com/

---

Space and Time is providing verifiable data infrastructure for onchain finance. A decentralized database, blockchain indexer, and ZK coprocessor in one, giving DeFi protocols,stablecoins, and tokenized assets accurate, provable data.

More here: https://www.spaceandtime.io/

---

Relay is the fastest and most reliable way to swap any token on any chain. More here: https://relay.link/bridge

---

Zama is an open source cryptography company that builds state-of-the-art Fully Homomorphic Encryption (FHE) solutions for blockchain.

More here: https://www.zama.org/

---

𝗪𝗲 𝘁𝗿𝘆 𝗼𝘂𝗿 𝗯𝗲𝘀𝘁 𝘁𝗼 𝗽𝗿𝗼𝗱𝘂𝗰𝗲 𝗵𝗶𝗴𝗵-𝗾𝘂𝗮𝗹𝗶𝘁𝘆, 𝗻𝗼𝗻-𝗯𝗶𝗮𝘀𝗲𝗱, 𝗲𝗱𝘂𝗰𝗮𝘁𝗶𝗼𝗻𝗮𝗹 𝗰𝗼𝗻𝘁𝗲𝗻𝘁 𝗳𝗼𝗿 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝗱𝗶𝗴𝗶𝘁𝗮𝗹 𝗮𝘀𝘀𝗲𝘁𝘀 𝗲𝗰𝗼𝘀𝘆𝘀𝘁𝗲𝗺. 𝗦𝘂𝗽𝗽𝗼𝗿𝘁 𝘂𝘀 𝗯𝘆 𝗰𝗹𝗶𝗰𝗸𝗶𝗻𝗴 𝗮𝗻𝘆 𝗼𝗳 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝗹𝗶𝗻𝗸𝘀 𝗯𝗲𝗹𝗼𝘄 𝗳𝗼𝗿 𝗳𝗿𝗲𝗲 𝗿𝗲𝘀𝗼𝘂𝗿𝗰𝗲𝘀:

Website: https://therollup.co/

Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/1P6ZeYd...

Podcast: https://therollup.co/category/podcast

Follow us on X: https://www.x.com/therollupco

Follow Rob on X: https://x.com/robbieklages

Follow Andy on X: https://x.com/andyyy

Join our TG group: https://t.me/+TsM1CRpWFgk1NGZh

The Rollup Disclosures: https://goodidea.ventures

𝗗𝗜𝗦𝗖𝗟𝗔𝗜𝗠𝗘𝗥: 𝘐𝘯𝘷𝘦𝘴𝘵𝘪𝘯𝘨 𝘪𝘯 𝘤𝘳𝘺𝘱𝘵𝘰𝘤𝘶𝘳𝘳𝘦𝘯𝘤𝘺 𝘢𝘯𝘥 𝘋𝘦𝘍𝘪 𝘱𝘭𝘢𝘵𝘧𝘰𝘳𝘮𝘴 𝘤𝘰𝘮𝘦𝘴 𝘸𝘪𝘵𝘩 𝘪𝘯𝘩𝘦𝘳𝘦𝘯𝘵 𝘳𝘪𝘴𝘬𝘴 𝘪𝘯𝘤𝘭𝘶𝘥𝘪𝘯𝘨 𝘵𝘦𝘤𝘩𝘯𝘪𝘤𝘢𝘭 𝘳𝘪𝘴𝘬, 𝘩𝘶𝘮𝘢𝘯 𝘦𝘳𝘳𝘰𝘳, 𝘱𝘭𝘢𝘵𝘧𝘰𝘳𝘮 𝘧𝘢𝘪𝘭𝘶𝘳𝘦 𝘢𝘯𝘥 𝘮𝘰𝘳𝘦. 𝘈𝘵 𝘤𝘦𝘳𝘵𝘢𝘪𝘯 𝘱𝘰𝘪𝘯𝘵𝘴 𝘵𝘩𝘳𝘰𝘶𝘨𝘩𝘰𝘶𝘵 𝘵𝘩𝘪𝘴 𝘤𝘩𝘢𝘯𝘯𝘦𝘭, 𝘸𝘦 𝘮𝘢𝘺 𝘦𝘢𝘳𝘯 𝘢 𝘤𝘰𝘮𝘮𝘪𝘴𝘴𝘪𝘰𝘯 𝘰𝘳 𝘧𝘦𝘦 𝘢𝘴 𝘢 𝘴𝘱𝘰𝘯𝘴𝘰𝘳𝘴𝘩𝘪𝘱, 𝘪𝘧 𝘵𝘩𝘪𝘴 𝘪𝘴 𝘵𝘩𝘦 𝘤𝘢𝘴𝘦 𝘸𝘦 𝘸𝘪𝘭𝘭 𝘢𝘭𝘸𝘢𝘺𝘴 𝘮𝘢𝘬𝘦 𝘴𝘶𝘳𝘦 𝘪𝘵 𝘪𝘴 𝘤𝘭𝘦𝘢𝘳. 𝘞𝘦 𝘢𝘳𝘦 𝘴𝘵𝘳𝘪𝘤𝘵𝘭𝘺 𝘢𝘯 𝘦𝘥𝘶𝘤𝘢𝘵𝘪𝘰𝘯𝘢𝘭 𝘤𝘰𝘯𝘵𝘦𝘯𝘵 𝘱𝘭𝘢𝘵𝘧𝘰𝘳𝘮, 𝘯𝘰𝘵𝘩𝘪𝘯𝘨 𝘸𝘦 𝘰𝘧𝘧𝘦𝘳 𝘪𝘴 𝘧𝘪𝘯𝘢𝘯𝘤𝘪𝘢𝘭 𝘢𝘥𝘷𝘪𝘤𝘦. 𝘞𝘦 𝘢𝘳𝘦 𝘯𝘰𝘵 𝘱𝘳𝘰𝘧𝘦𝘴𝘴𝘪𝘰𝘯𝘢𝘭𝘴 𝘰𝘳 𝘭𝘪𝘤𝘦𝘯𝘴𝘦𝘥 𝘢𝘥𝘷𝘪𝘴𝘰𝘳𝘴.

Daryl Xu joins us to explain the biggest shift happening in AI. He introduces B3 IQ, a platform that lets anyone rent-to-own AI compute instead of relying on centralized API providers, and makes the case that using decentralized inference has a hidden cost most people overlook: your proprietary data. He also explains why inference demand keeps climbing even as GPU prices depreciate slower than expected.

Daryl Xu is the Co-Founder and CEO of NPC Labs, a core contributor to the B3 ecosystem and creator of B3 IQ, an AI compute ownership platform.

The Rollup is where the leaders of digital assets and finance converge. Live from the financial capital of the world.

Timestamps:

00:00 Intro

04:28 The Compute Ownership Thesis

09:53 B3's Evolution Into AI

13:34 Own Your GPU, Own Your Data

18:40 How GPU Owners Earn From AI

22:34 Live Demo Of The Platform

27:48 Who Are The Compute Customers?

32:05 Why Inference Demand Keeps Growing

Guest Socials:

Daryl Xu X: https://x.com/darylX24

B3 Labs X: https://x.com/b3labs

B3 Labs Website: https://b3labs.org/

Partners:

If you run concentrated liquidity positions you know the grind. Price moves, you're out of range, you're rebalancing at, like, 3am. 1inch Aqua lets you take a different approach. You can stack multiple positions on the same token balance instead of babysitting a dozen pools, and your tokens never leave your wallet. Your liquidity stays awake, so you can catch up on your sleep. Check it out at https://1inch.com/aqua

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Dinari - Over 230 1:1 backed tokenized stocks, ETFs & more with dividends. US-based SEC transfer agent. Available on 5+ chains & via API. https://dinari.com/

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Space and Time is providing verifiable data infrastructure for onchain finance. A decentralized database, blockchain indexer, and ZK coprocessor in one, giving DeFi protocols,stablecoins, and tokenized assets accurate, provable data.

Learn more here: https://www.spaceandtime.io/

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Relay is the fastest and most reliable way to swap any token on any chain. Learn more here: https://relay.link/bridge

---

Zama is an open source cryptography company that builds state-of-the-art Fully Homomorphic Encryption (FHE) solutions for blockchain.

Learn more here: https://www.zama.org/

---

𝗪𝗲 𝘁𝗿𝘆 𝗼𝘂𝗿 𝗯𝗲𝘀𝘁 𝘁𝗼 𝗽𝗿𝗼𝗱𝘂𝗰𝗲 𝗵𝗶𝗴𝗵-𝗾𝘂𝗮𝗹𝗶𝘁𝘆, 𝗻𝗼𝗻-𝗯𝗶𝗮𝘀𝗲𝗱, 𝗲𝗱𝘂𝗰𝗮𝘁𝗶𝗼𝗻𝗮𝗹 𝗰𝗼𝗻𝘁𝗲𝗻𝘁 𝗳𝗼𝗿 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝗱𝗶𝗴𝗶𝘁𝗮𝗹 𝗮𝘀𝘀𝗲𝘁𝘀 𝗲𝗰𝗼𝘀𝘆𝘀𝘁𝗲𝗺. 𝗦𝘂𝗽𝗽𝗼𝗿𝘁 𝘂𝘀 𝗯𝘆 𝗰𝗹𝗶𝗰𝗸𝗶𝗻𝗴 𝗮𝗻𝘆 𝗼𝗳 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝗹𝗶𝗻𝗸𝘀 𝗯𝗲𝗹𝗼𝘄 𝗳𝗼𝗿 𝗳𝗿𝗲𝗲 𝗿𝗲𝘀𝗼𝘂𝗿𝗰𝗲𝘀:

Website: https://therollup.co/

Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/1P6ZeYd...

Podcast: https://therollup.co/category/podcast

Follow us on X: https://www.x.com/therollupco

Follow Rob on X: https://x.com/robbieklages

Follow Andy on X: https://x.com/andyyy

Join our TG group: https://t.me/+TsM1CRpWFgk1NGZh

The Rollup Disclosures: https://goodidea.ventures

𝗗𝗜𝗦𝗖𝗟𝗔𝗜𝗠𝗘𝗥: 𝘐𝘯𝘷𝘦𝘴𝘵𝘪𝘯𝘨 𝘪𝘯 𝘤𝘳𝘺𝘱𝘵𝘰𝘤𝘶𝘳𝘳𝘦𝘯𝘤𝘺 𝘢𝘯𝘥 𝘋𝘦𝘍𝘪 𝘱𝘭𝘢𝘵𝘧𝘰𝘳𝘮𝘴 𝘤𝘰𝘮𝘦𝘴 𝘸𝘪𝘵𝘩 𝘪𝘯𝘩𝘦𝘳𝘦𝘯𝘵 𝘳𝘪𝘴𝘬𝘴 𝘪𝘯𝘤𝘭𝘶𝘥𝘪𝘯𝘨 𝘵𝘦𝘤𝘩𝘯𝘪𝘤𝘢𝘭 𝘳𝘪𝘴𝘬, 𝘩𝘶𝘮𝘢𝘯 𝘦𝘳𝘳𝘰𝘳, 𝘱𝘭𝘢𝘵𝘧𝘰𝘳𝘮 𝘧𝘢𝘪𝘭𝘶𝘳𝘦 𝘢𝘯𝘥 𝘮𝘰𝘳𝘦. 𝘈𝘵 𝘤𝘦𝘳𝘵𝘢𝘪𝘯 𝘱𝘰𝘪𝘯𝘵𝘴 𝘵𝘩𝘳𝘰𝘶𝘨𝘩𝘰𝘶𝘵 𝘵𝘩𝘪𝘴 𝘤𝘩𝘢𝘯𝘯𝘦𝘭, 𝘸𝘦 𝘮𝘢𝘺 𝘦𝘢𝘳𝘯 𝘢 𝘤𝘰𝘮𝘮𝘪𝘴𝘴𝘪𝘰𝘯 𝘰𝘳 𝘧𝘦𝘦 𝘢𝘴 𝘢 𝘴𝘱𝘰𝘯𝘴𝘰𝘳𝘴𝘩𝘪𝘱, 𝘪𝘧 𝘵𝘩𝘪𝘴 𝘪𝘴 𝘵𝘩𝘦 𝘤𝘢𝘴𝘦 𝘸𝘦 𝘸𝘪𝘭𝘭 𝘢𝘭𝘸𝘢𝘺𝘴 𝘮𝘢𝘬𝘦 𝘴𝘶𝘳𝘦 𝘪𝘵 𝘪𝘴 𝘤𝘭𝘦𝘢𝘳. 𝘞𝘦 𝘢𝘳𝘦 𝘴𝘵𝘳𝘪𝘤𝘵𝘭𝘺 𝘢𝘯 𝘦𝘥𝘶𝘤𝘢𝘵𝘪𝘰𝘯𝘢𝘭 𝘤𝘰𝘯𝘵𝘦𝘯𝘵 𝘱𝘭𝘢𝘵𝘧𝘰𝘳𝘮, 𝘯𝘰𝘵𝘩𝘪𝘯𝘨 𝘸𝘦 𝘰𝘧𝘧𝘦𝘳 𝘪𝘴 𝘧𝘪𝘯𝘢𝘯𝘤𝘪𝘢𝘭 𝘢𝘥𝘷𝘪𝘤𝘦. 𝘞𝘦 𝘢𝘳𝘦 𝘯𝘰𝘵 𝘱𝘳𝘰𝘧𝘦𝘴𝘴𝘪𝘰𝘯𝘢𝘭𝘴 𝘰𝘳 𝘭𝘪𝘤𝘦𝘯𝘴𝘦𝘥 𝘢𝘥𝘷𝘪𝘴𝘰𝘳𝘴.

Bitwise's CIO Matt Hougan and Head of Research Ryan Rasmussen break down why institutional ETF investors kept buying through the summer's 50% drawdowns and explain why they expect the next bull market to look a lot different than previous ones. They also make the case that ETF flows are expanding, what institutional allocators really want to buy, and the long-term forecasts for top digital assets.

Matt Hougan is the Chief Investment Officer at Bitwise, and Ryan Rasmussen is the Head of Research at Bitwise, one of the largest digital assets asset managers with a suite of digital asset ETFs spanning Bitcoin, Ethereum, Solana, and beyond.

The Rollup is where the leaders of digital assets and finance converge. Live from the financial capital of the world.

Timestamps:

00:00 Intro

01:00 Market Structure Shifting

03:01 Is The Four Year Cycle Compressing?

08:07 Positive ETF Flows Since July 1st

13:55 Why Institutions Buy Majors, Not Apps (Yet)

15:21 Digital Asset Natives See A Different Opportunity

18:05 Bitcoin Starting To Trade Like Gold

20:42 Institutions Are Getting Sophisticated Now

30:59 Hyperliquid & Zcash Bull Thesis

37:04 Memes Aren't Sustainable

Guest Socials:

Matt Hougan X: https://x.com/Matt_Hougan

Ryan Rasmussen: https://x.com/RasterlyRock

Bitwise X: https://x.com/Bitwise

Bitwise Website: https://bitwiseinvestments.com/

Partners:

If you run concentrated liquidity positions you know the grind. Price moves, you're out of range, you're rebalancing at, like, 3am. 1inch Aqua lets you take a different approach. You can stack multiple positions on the same token balance instead of babysitting a dozen pools, and your tokens never leave your wallet. Your liquidity stays awake, so you can catch up on your sleep. Check it out at https://1inch.com/aqua

---

Dinari - Over 230 1:1 backed tokenized stocks, ETFs & more with dividends. US-based SEC transfer agent. Available on 5+ chains & via API. https://dinari.com/

---

Space and Time is providing verifiable data infrastructure for onchain finance. A decentralized database, blockchain indexer, and ZK coprocessor in one, giving DeFi protocols,stablecoins, and tokenized assets accurate, provable data.

---

Relay is the fastest and most reliable way to swap any token on any chain. Learn more here: https://relay.link/bridge

---

Zama is an open source cryptography company that builds state-of-the-art Fully Homomorphic Encryption (FHE) solutions for blockchain.

Learn more here: https://www.zama.org/

---

𝗪𝗲 𝘁𝗿𝘆 𝗼𝘂𝗿 𝗯𝗲𝘀𝘁 𝘁𝗼 𝗽𝗿𝗼𝗱𝘂𝗰𝗲 𝗵𝗶𝗴𝗵-𝗾𝘂𝗮𝗹𝗶𝘁𝘆, 𝗻𝗼𝗻-𝗯𝗶𝗮𝘀𝗲𝗱, 𝗲𝗱𝘂𝗰𝗮𝘁𝗶𝗼𝗻𝗮𝗹 𝗰𝗼𝗻𝘁𝗲𝗻𝘁 𝗳𝗼𝗿 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝗱𝗶𝗴𝗶𝘁𝗮𝗹 𝗮𝘀𝘀𝗲𝘁𝘀 𝗲𝗰𝗼𝘀𝘆𝘀𝘁𝗲𝗺. 𝗦𝘂𝗽𝗽𝗼𝗿𝘁 𝘂𝘀 𝗯𝘆 𝗰𝗹𝗶𝗰𝗸𝗶𝗻𝗴 𝗮𝗻𝘆 𝗼𝗳 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝗹𝗶𝗻𝗸𝘀 𝗯𝗲𝗹𝗼𝘄 𝗳𝗼𝗿 𝗳𝗿𝗲𝗲 𝗿𝗲𝘀𝗼𝘂𝗿𝗰𝗲𝘀:

Website: https://therollup.co/

Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/1P6ZeYd...

Podcast: https://therollup.co/category/podcast

Follow us on X: https://www.x.com/therollupco

Follow Rob on X: https://x.com/robbieklages

Follow Andy on X: https://x.com/andyyy

Join our TG group: https://t.me/+TsM1CRpWFgk1NGZh

The Rollup Disclosures: https://goodidea.ventures

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𝗗𝗜𝗦𝗖𝗟𝗔𝗜𝗠𝗘𝗥: 𝘐𝘯𝘷𝘦𝘴𝘵𝘪𝘯𝘨 𝘪𝘯 𝘤𝘳𝘺𝘱𝘵𝘰𝘤𝘶𝘳𝘳𝘦𝘯𝘤𝘺 𝘢𝘯𝘥 𝘋𝘦𝘍𝘪 𝘱𝘭𝘢𝘵𝘧𝘰𝘳𝘮𝘴 𝘤𝘰𝘮𝘦𝘴 𝘸𝘪𝘵𝘩 𝘪𝘯𝘩𝘦𝘳𝘦𝘯𝘵 𝘳𝘪𝘴𝘬𝘴 𝘪𝘯𝘤𝘭𝘶𝘥𝘪𝘯𝘨 𝘵𝘦𝘤𝘩𝘯𝘪𝘤𝘢𝘭 𝘳𝘪𝘴𝘬, 𝘩𝘶𝘮𝘢𝘯 𝘦𝘳𝘳𝘰𝘳, 𝘱𝘭𝘢𝘵𝘧𝘰𝘳𝘮 𝘧𝘢𝘪𝘭𝘶𝘳𝘦 𝘢𝘯𝘥 𝘮𝘰𝘳𝘦. 𝘈𝘵 𝘤𝘦𝘳𝘵𝘢𝘪𝘯 𝘱𝘰𝘪𝘯𝘵𝘴 𝘵𝘩𝘳𝘰𝘶𝘨𝘩𝘰𝘶𝘵 𝘵𝘩𝘪𝘴 𝘤𝘩𝘢𝘯𝘯𝘦𝘭, 𝘸𝘦 𝘮𝘢𝘺 𝘦𝘢𝘳𝘯 𝘢 𝘤𝘰𝘮𝘮𝘪𝘴𝘴𝘪𝘰𝘯 𝘰𝘳 𝘧𝘦𝘦 𝘢𝘴 𝘢 𝘴𝘱𝘰𝘯𝘴𝘰𝘳𝘴𝘩𝘪𝘱, 𝘪𝘧 𝘵𝘩𝘪𝘴 𝘪𝘴 𝘵𝘩𝘦 𝘤𝘢𝘴𝘦 𝘸𝘦 𝘸𝘪𝘭𝘭 𝘢𝘭𝘸𝘢𝘺𝘴 𝘮𝘢𝘬𝘦 𝘴𝘶𝘳𝘦 𝘪𝘵 𝘪𝘴 𝘤𝘭𝘦𝘢𝘳. 𝘞𝘦 𝘢𝘳𝘦 𝘴𝘵𝘳𝘪𝘤𝘵𝘭𝘺 𝘢𝘯 𝘦𝘥𝘶𝘤𝘢𝘵𝘪𝘰𝘯𝘢𝘭 𝘤𝘰𝘯𝘵𝘦𝘯𝘵 𝘱𝘭𝘢𝘵𝘧𝘰𝘳𝘮, 𝘯𝘰𝘵𝘩𝘪𝘯𝘨 𝘸𝘦 𝘰𝘧𝘧𝘦𝘳 𝘪𝘴 𝘧𝘪𝘯𝘢𝘯𝘤𝘪𝘢𝘭 𝘢𝘥𝘷𝘪𝘤𝘦. 𝘞𝘦 𝘢𝘳𝘦 𝘯𝘰𝘵 𝘱𝘳𝘰𝘧𝘦𝘴𝘴𝘪𝘰𝘯𝘢𝘭𝘴 𝘰𝘳 𝘭𝘪𝘤𝘦𝘯𝘴𝘦𝘥 𝘢𝘥𝘷𝘪𝘴𝘰𝘳𝘴.