Laura Murray

Laura Murray joins Kay Daigle to discuss her book Becoming a Person of Welcome: The Spiritual Practice of Hospitality. She increases our understanding of what hospitality is, suggesting that it is more about relationships than spaces. Perhaps you’ve never felt comfortable with hosting others in your home. You may not have a space that’s conducive to what you’ve considered hospitality. Laura’s wise counsel and suggestions based on her own experiences will open your mind to new ways to practice Christian hospitality.

This episode is available on video as well.

00:21 Introductions

Kay >> Welcome to the Beyond Ordinary Women Podcast. I’m Kay Daigle. I’m your host today. And today we are talking with our guest, Laura Murray. Welcome, Laura.

Laura >> Thanks for having me.

Kay >> Oh, we’re so excited that you’re here. Laura is a pastor. She is an author. She’s a spiritual director. She is the Director of Spiritual Engagement and Innovation at Fuller Seminary’s Center for Spiritual Formation. That’s kind of a long title.

Laura >> It is long.

Kay >> She is a retreat creator. And we’ll mention that at the end as well, that she just has been doing many things. She has a lot of experience in the church and as a spiritual director. And so we’re just delighted that you were able to be with us.

You can find out more about Laura on our website. If you just go to the top menu and go to About Us and look at the Video/Podcast Contributors, and we will have more information about Laura and how you can get in touch with her.

So we are talking today from your book Becoming a Person of Welcome: The Spiritual Practice of Hospitality. And I have to say that I was just really interested in that title when I saw it online somewhere that your book was going to be coming out and the spiritual practice of hospitality just really intrigued me as I read about that.

And so tell us a little bit about it. We’re not talking about just hospitality where are you having people over to your house,

Laura >> Right.

Kay >> This encompasses way beyond that, and I’m sure you picked that up as we go through. We’re not going to tell you how to set your table. We’re not going to tell you how to manage your menu or anything like that. We’re going to talk about spiritual hospitality.

So, Laura, just tell us where this idea of writing about hospitality begin.

Laura >> Yeah, thanks for that question. And I was talking to somebody about this the other day, said, why did you decide to write on hospitality? And I thought, I think it found me. I didn’t go searching for it. It found me. I was in the middle of my doctoral studies and the pandemic hit and shelter in place hit.

And I didn’t necessarily have a context for my studies. When you’re doing a doctoral study, you have to have a context. And I had just stepped away from a role of pastoral ministry in a church and I found myself really struggling in my relationship with God because those anchors weren’t there anymore. Like the anchors of worship or the anchors of gathering together, those things weren’t there anymore.

So I thought, if I’m struggling being with God, maybe others are struggling being with God. So I designed a space called Digital Silent Retreats, where we came online on Zoom, and we met together just a few people off of my very small email list and invited them to come onto Zoom. We met together, and then I sent them off for an hour and a half and solitude and silence with spiritual practices on retreat with God.

And then we came back in that last hour. We shared how God met us, what happened during that time. And we kept on doing this. And as this ministry, this experiment, turned into ministry kept going, I thought, “What are the pillars? What is holding up this ministry?” And one of the three pillars was hospitality.

And I thought, “This is interesting. It really, I need to welcome people in the Zoom space and have them feel welcome and connect with God and connect with others. They’re all strangers. What in the world?”

And so I went into a further study into hospitality and scripture as a part of my doctoral studies. So I did a whole independent study that researched that.

And then I started to see that hospitality wasn’t only a place, but that it was a posture. It was something within us that we take with us wherever we go: whether it’s on a Zoom screen, holding a retreat for people who are trying to find their way forward in this shelter in place, or whether it was later, you know, to the grocery store or whether it was to a home or a school.

But that welcome was this inner posture that I could take with me and create these little places of welcome or big places of welcome for someone where they felt connected with another person. They felt seen they felt like they could be themselves. They felt like they could learn. And so when I think about studying you know, writing about hospitality, it ended up finding me.

And then, Kay, what happened is I started to see it everywhere. I started to see the opportunities for it everywhere. I started to see it in my family of origin upbringing, how hospitality was offered. I saw it in leadership. And then I saw the pains of hospitality where there was rejection and where there were places that I thought were welcoming but then weren’t all of a sudden.

And so this just went into a deeper dove for myself, for the ministry, and then ended up writing, writing the book. So that was a really long story, back story to how I ended up in this space.

Kay >> Yeah, but it’s a great story. It certainly explains things, how you came up with this.

Well, how do you how do you differentiate that kind of hospitality that we normally think of from the hospitality that you found in Scripture as you began to study more about hospitality?

Laura >> You know, we all start with a definition of what hospitality is because hospitality is experienced. It’s not just a definition on the page. It’s something you have felt. It’s something you’ve been a part of.

So some cultures would say coming into a home that’s beautiful and prepared and thought of and welcomed in and food, which is all part of hospitality. Some would say it’s a communal event where we go out and we have a picnic and we invite the whole neighborhood and we’re out there at the park and we’re enjoying one another. And anybody’s welcome to join.

So we all have a definition of hospitality that is rooted in our experience of it. And so we all start there. Yet, I think for all of us it’s been limited to whatever our culture is or whatever we’ve practiced.

And so the biblical definition of hospitality invites us to see that hospitality is deep care, that hospitality does the work of repair and restoration, that hospitality and welcome looks for those who are on the margin. And it intentionally provides for people who are on the margin. We see that in the Old Testament, as the Israelites were told to take care of the foreigner and the widow and the stranger. And so we see that outward looking and that provision, provision in that generosity.

And then in the life of Jesus, we see this movement towards people. So this leaving of his home with God to enter our world and to be in our world.

So hospitality moves out of the places where we’re comfortable, the places that we can control and manage, which those are all great things to hold those spaces. And we’re responsible for those spaces. But to move towards the other for the sake of them and for the sake of their care, for the sake of what they need where they are. Not what they need in order to come to us, but what they need where they are.

And so it extends beyond walls and extends beyond comfort zones. And what it does is it provides security, care, freedom, all those things for the one who receives it.

Kay >> Yeah, I love that, that we carry that posture of hospitality with us and it makes us look at people differently. It makes us see them in ways that we would not normally see them if we’re just thinking of ourselves busy with our own families and our own stuff. But if we began to carry hospitality with us, I love that thought.

I love that I can internalize that. I can put that in my heart as I go to the grocery store, as I interact with other people.

Laura >> Kay, as you’re saying that I think like it. In some ways, it takes the pressure off because often we think about hospitality of you know, is my house clean? Is there enough food?

Like there is so much pressure of perfection and performance and presentation that sometimes we have defined hospitality as like who do we need to be?

How do we need it? And there’s just so much pressure. And it’s really focused on ourselves. So the invitation of the posture is to be so transformed by Jesus so have welcomed Jesus into us. That we welcome him in us. That we are so transformed that when we walk out its—we’re carrying us and Jesus is being carried through us, you know. That you don’t have to worry about the food, the temperature, you know, just all the things we worry about.

You actually just can be present to the person in front of you. And it can be just a few moments. It doesn’t have to be huge and magnificent, although those are wonderful. It can really take the pressure off of loving one somebody freely without some of the demands we put on ourselves that we have.

Kay >> Yeah. I think back to when I was women’s minister in a church and actually couple of churches, this sort of the same thing—that we would have something sometimes it was an event sometimes it was a Bible study, a MOPS group that they had a culture of such huge decorations and food that it was really ridiculous.

And, you know, I felt that they were misplacing their attention to all this stuff, and they were working so, so hard. A lot of pressure was on everybody.

In one church, we had had this dinner before I ever was the Women’s Minister, a dinner, and I mean, the elaborate decorations for the tables for the table host were—I mean, most of them were beautiful. But for those of us who aren’t really gifted in that area, it was a huge weight on us as to what am I going to do with my table.

And when I was in another church, we did the same thing, but it was not to that extent.

But it just can make it hard to be hospitable when you’re so burdened with all these things that really aren’t—you can be you can be not hospitable at the table. Because you’re so burdened with what, you know, the decorations look like and how are you doing. You know, and you’re focused on yourself, just as you said.

So I love that idea that we take hospitality with us and we’re not—we just need to quit performing.

Don’t worry a little bit. We need to consider the other people and some kind of balance there between having. Yes, you want to make sure you have enough food, but you don’t have to make all of it yourself. You can buy things. You can you know, you can ease some of that pressure off yourself.

So the kind of hospitality you’re talking about, is this for everybody to practice? Because I know that Peter mentions a gift of hospitality or seems to be talking about a gift of hospitality. So is this only for the people who have that gift?

Laura >> No, I think it’s for both. There are definitely people who have whether the gifts or just called to be able to serve in that way. And I think a reminder, too, for me, as I understand spiritual gifts, is that spiritual gifts are gifts of the spirit that are meant for the community. So it’s to serve another.

So it’s beautiful for those who have the gift of hospitality.

Yet what we have done is said, “Oh, I’m not gifted in that or and it’s a comparison. It’s not like honoring them like, “Okay, yes, they have the gift of hospitality.” And then it’s like I don’t do anything. That’s not the case. It’s a both and. And so I don’t want to diminish those who have that gift and are called to do that in these really important ways, in the ways that they’re called to do it. Absolutely.

And at the same time, we’re called to do it as well, that we’re called to show hospitality to one another to strangers. We’re called to live as Jesus did in that way. And so it’s a both and. So I think it’s an invitation to have it be a spiritual practice, that it’s something we grow in, that something we develop, it’s something that God does in us that we can offer to others.

But I would just say maybe sometimes we have used that definitive definition of hospitality and then said, “That’s for the person that’s gifted in it or that’s for the person who has resources or that’s for the person who can create those tablescapes or the food.” But it’s something that all of us all of us can do.

Kay >> Absolutely.

So let’s talk about you as the leader now for a little bit, because I know that a lot of what we do at BOW is to prepare women for leadership. And as a leader, as a staff member, you have led other people. How did the experiences that you have had help those of us as leaders?

What can you say to us? How can you help us be hospitable and welcoming as leaders?

Laura >> It’s a great question. And as I was thinking and praying about our conversation today, as I imagine they’re already doing a lot. I imagine they’re already being hospitable. I imagine they’re already being intentional. They’re already moving towards those who are on the outside. So as leaders, I just want to say you’re probably already doing the work.

And so just an encouragement for that in regards to the work that is being done in your contexts.

The one place I would say (and this is my also my spiritual director hat being put on as well as a shepherd’s heart) is that we often in leadership or look to serve the other, which is good, but we get it imbalanced with receiving the gifts that God has for us, receiving the joys that God has for us, receiving the healing God has for us, receiving the rest that God has for us.

So I think in this work there is definitely the external work that we do and yet there is a lot of internal transformation that needs to happen in us to continue to sustain the work in a good way, in a healthy way.

And so for me, one story I talk about in the book, it’s a phrase I use I call it the pastoral pivot and that as leaders, you know, we’re there to serve. So if somebody asks us how we’re doing and, and we’ll kind of say a general thing and then we’ll turn around, how are you doing? And we just serve them. We just operate.

And yet there are sometimes people who know us really well, and they’ll ask, “How are you doing?” And we won’t let them see. We won’t let them well, we’ll do the pastoral pivot and we’ll focus that back on them again.

There’s nothing wrong with serving, but we lose the ability to receive from others. We lose the ability to receive the gifts of other people for us. We lose the ability to receive that from God.

And something that actually just I’ve been working through the past few years and just a couple of months ago, God was reminding me of the Scripture in the story of the fish and loaves and the little boy and how the little boy we talk about, Okay, offering our fish and loaves and Jesus taking it and multiplying it, the disciples distributing it.

And I just remember God reminding me and saying, “By the way, that little boy was fed too. That little boy also was nourished. It wasn’t only sacrifice that he offered up. He also was taken care of. And so I think for us as leaders to believe God is taking care of us where we neglect or reject his care. Where we said, “No, I’ve got this God.” Or even to people around us say, “Nope, I got it!” You know?

And so I think for us as leaders is paying attention to where we weary, to the places that we are wounded, even the little micro tears that add up over time.

And then I would say the other piece is where are we welcoming friendships and the joy that people bring and delight and those things that can be really healing and beautiful?

So back in Scripture, in the Old Testament, God said to remember the stranger, but remember that you were strangers, that you actually needed me. So I think remembering that we actually need and then receiving it.

Kay >> I think those are really good words for leaders. It really is very hard to accept somebody else’s care for you sometimes because you do feel like this role is I’m supposed to be serving them. I’m supposed to serve. And instead of realizing that you need their gift of hospitality, they’re welcoming of you. They’re caring for you, all those kind of things.

So I really do love that. And you talk about receiving welcome. Are there any particular practices for women in leadership that you think allow them to receive God’s hand hospitality. Is there anything you would suggest that they do beyond what you just talked about?

Laura >> I think all the, any of the practices are good. And the reason why I say that—any of the spiritual practices are good, as long as you are receiving the gifts that God has for you in them. So this the spiritual practice of study is good. But if all you’re doing with your study is offering it to others, then maybe think about what God is offering you in this study.

The spiritual practice of prayer. If you’re only form of prayer is intercession for others, then maybe consider how you can receive prayer. If it’s receiving not only the intercession of others, but receiving God’s Word. So if it’s meditating on Scripture and asking God to give you a prayer, asking God to speak to you.

So when we think about the spiritual practices they do bring about fruit, they do bring about something, but it’s not our job to bring it about.

And so when you engage with study, prayer, worship, those are some of the classics, right? You know, intercessory prayer, Bible study and corporate worship. And in the book I talked about I talk about some kind of nontraditional practices in there. And so a practice of suspending judgment right the moment that judgment comes into your mind and you want to go running with that, like how do you stop it?

Talk about confession that the role of confession and saying I have limitations that I cannot do these things and those limitations are not a place of shame, but of being human. And so how do we confess to God we have been over functioning or we have been trying to save this and it’s not ours to save.

Where have we picked up a cross that you never asked us to pick up? And so there’s confession in those things. And again, the practices are to connect us with the heart of God. The practices are for our relationship with God. It’s for freedom and joy and delight and transformation. And so I think somebody taking their practices, they already do.

And even seeing them in that view is the first step or it can be a great first step.

And I think also some of these other practices that go a little deeper of confession, of practicing non-judgment, of receiving from others, and in entrusting God with the fruit that comes from them for you. And here’s the shift that I would invite to—is that you would see yourself as a guest rather than the host.

Because when we’re the guest, we don’t have control. When we’re the guest, we’re at the mercy of what’s offered to us. When we’re the guest, we’re far more vulnerable.

And so if you went to any of your spiritual practices as the guest of God, and that God is the first host, I wonder what would happen just in regards to healing, being met, and cared for and learning to receive, learning to be the guest.

Kay >> I love that. I think that that that is a really memorable help to people when you put it that way.

Just as going out with a posture of hospitality everywhere you go. I think those two ideas are things that probably everybody out there can hang on to those attitudes that you go into life realizing you’re God’s guest. You think of yourself as a guest and also to just look for how to be hospitable to everyone around you and make that part of your life. I love that in the book.

I did want to mention how the book is set up. Laura has written a chapter about a certain aspect of hospitality, and then she has a specific spiritual practice for you at the end of that chapter that fits with what she’s just said. That’s very helpful. I went through a number of them, actually spent the time doing it, but I kind of ran out of time because we were going to talk today, and didn’t get to actually practice some of the spiritual practices that you mentioned in there.

But I plan to go back and do that.

Laura >> Well, Kay. I mean, I’ll just go ahead and say the book is not a fast read. I mean, you could read it fast if you wanted, but the book is meant to invite you into deeper practice, transformation. And so in some ways, it’s a guide, it’s a guidebook, it’s a spiritual practice guidebook for you. And I would say just really encouraged to do it with others. That’s the other thing I would say in all of this.

I’ve been thinking the whole time, okay, remind them to do this with others. Like do this in community, take this on. Try this and go, “Oh, that’s what this was like,” or “This was awkward” Or “I did this,” or “Oh, that was so beautiful.”

And just sharing those, really testimony and stories of what your experience was like and reflecting on it with others only deepens the transformation, that communal aspect of doing this with others. I would highly recommend, and take your time. I mean, there may be something there—may be a chapter or a practice or a phrase that like—you’re just going to sit on this. Like there’s a scripture that is just going to sit in you for a month. And just let it sit there. Let it percolate, let it grow.

And I was just reminded of this. I am not a gardener in the literal sense of the word. Now spiritually and in that I do think I do cultivate soil in places and in that. But physically like, no. But we have this huge flower bed in our front yard and a few years ago, someone told me about a place you’re like, oh, you can get native plants. They’re better, you know?

Now, currently, the first two rows have changed in so many different ways. But the back row has been what is called Turk’s Caps, and they’re supposed to be these big, beautiful bushes that in the summer just come out with big green leaves.

And often they have these little tiny red buds and they’re beautiful, or I have pink ones, too. So I have three red and two pink on the outside. Okay, so I just I plant.

I planted these four years ago. They’ve survived two ice storms. They’ve lived in the soil and they have done nothing. I mean, I go to gardeners, you’re like, oh, they should be full and robust by year two.

Like they’re not year three. They’re like the tiniest fraction. There’s maybe ten leaves that they burst out with. I go and I help down in another part of the city and they have Turk’s Caps that are just exploding. And I’m going, What is going on? It’s driving me crazy, and I just want to dig them up and get rid of them, like just replant, start again.

And one of the gardeners like, don’t, don’t do it. Just, just leave them there. They’re growing their roots. And I just thought, “These are taking forever. And our garden looks horrible.”

And then this year they’re starting to burst. And I have never been so proud of these Turk’s Caps that are coming out. And all I did was, well, I mean, water, make sure they had sun. I mean, I and I’ve been waiting I’ve been waiting for the fruit I’ve been waiting for the beauty. I’ve been waiting, and it’s been so frustrating. And I just.

And you’re tempted to dig it up. You’re tempted to let it go. And stop trying. But then year four, right when it was supposed to happen in year two. And here these Turk’s Caps. And every time I walk by them, I’m like, “There’s a new bud.”

There is a new, you know, I send pictures to my friends. “Look at my Turk’s Caps.” I mean, it’s silly.

But there’s this just this beauty and this joy that comes whether you’re in a hard season in leadership, even if you’re weary or you’ve got some wounds, just allowing the Lord to tend to those. Allowing the Lord to meet you, allowing the Lord to minister to you.

So you may be in a season of that. Just keep on letting the Lord minister to you, you know. And there will be joy. There was joy in the little growth that was happening. And now there’s great joy.

And so I share that to say with some of these spiritual practices, they sink down really deep and they’re developing really deep roots.

You just can’t see it for a while. So my encouragement is to stay with them, even if they’re not producing something right away. So I just felt compelled to share that story and celebrate my Turk’s Caps with you guys.

Kay >> Well, I think that’s wonderful, and I know that that will really speak to many people out there, whether they’re leaders or not. Because you can’t always see the fruit immediately—that God is working, God is working when you come to him and practice that.

Well, thank you so much for this. It’s been great.

Again, her book is Becoming a Person of Welcome, and I hope that you will purchase the book and go through it as she said: take your time; meditate; do the spiritual practices; maybe do it with a friend. If you’re a leader, with another leader. It doesn’t have to be somebody in your church context. It can be another leader somewhere else. I’ve found that to be very important for me when I was on church staff that I had friends in other churches and church staffs there. So they understood a lot about what I was going through and what they understood what they were going through as well.

And it was really a help. So I think that community part is really important.

In fact, this year, Laura, I am taking you through a number of circumstances and conversations I’m now sort of the leader of a group that we’re reading through the Bible in two years together, and I had never done that before. And it’s just been such a blessing that we’re sharing what we’re seeing, we’re sharing what God’s doing.

It’s just made a big difference in all the times that I’ve read through the Bible on my own.

Laura >> Yeah. Yeah.

Kay >> Right. So I really appreciate what you’re saying about community.

Tell us just a little bit more about your digital silent retreats for people who would be interested in that.

Laura >> Sure. So these are retreats that we hold two Saturdays each month except for July. Take a little break. But we hold them two Saturdays and they’re about 3 hours. And so you come on to Zoom, we send you a link. We send you a retreat guide. You come on to Zoom and you meet other people. You have hosts and facilitators, and we welcome and we start you off on your retreat with a spiritual practice.

And then we send you off with the retreat guide that we have provided for you to print out. And you go on your own in solitude and silence for about an hour and a half with the retreat guide again, you go at your pace. You don’t have to do the whole guide. So it’s time for you and the Lord.

And then you come back after about an hour and a half, and then the last 45 minutes or an hour, there’s a facilitated discussion and a listening of what happened and how God met you. You get to share whatever you would like, and you also get to hear the stories of others and how God met them on their retreat time. And then we, you know, pray and bless and send you out. So it’s 3 hours on a Saturday morning.

And I will say I started it with the goal or not the goal with the felt need of we need these anchoring time of solitude and silence with God, which is really needed. Then I found out that last hour of communal conversation and sharing was really gold. That was really beautiful.

And you just got to hear real life from other people. You got to hear how God was meeting them. And it was just such an encouragement for one another. And I think we need those encouragements. We need to know that God is active in other people’s lives and our own.

And so you can go to the website. It’s DigitalSilentRetreats.com and sign up.

We put them up month by month with a theme and we’d love for you to join or send me an email, ask questions about it.

Kay >> I’ve been on several silent retreats with a friend. For awhile she was doing like a little half day retreat, probably similar time frame to your what you’re talking about. And we would go together somewhere. And then I went with her on a couple that were two night retreats, silent retreats. And with very similar format—that we would go off and be on our own, that we would come back together and have conversations.

So I highly recommend those. They’re really, really helpful. Really helpful to a Christian to really spend time with the Lord in silence, but to have a little bit of direction in that really makes it richer somehow also having the other people around you.

Laura >> Yeah. Silence can be daunting, you know, so to have a guide there who’s guiding you through it a little bit is really helpful.

Kay >> It really does make a difference. Well, thank you. Again, I’d like to mention some other resources. Laura, do you have any other resources you would recommend to people.

Laura >> If you could go to my website and sign up for a newsletter you’ll get resources through there. There is a resource for Jesus as being the hospitable leader on there that you can download. If you have a specific question or you’re thinking about a specific context, feel free to send me an email.

I have retreat guides as well. And that is another thing. I have PDFs like I can share. It’s like low, low cost. I mean, it’s like $2 a use for a guide. If you want to use those for your ministry. I have those as well. And so I’m just really some practical resources for you as you continue to grow in your faith.

Kay >> That’s great. That’s great. And we’ll put your contact information on our website so that people can also find it there. We also have some other resources on our website that might be helpful under leadership development. Look at under You As a Leader. You can find some other videos and podcasts that we have done talking about spiritual practices and other things that leaders deal with.

We also have a section on Godly Living that has some items that you might be interested in. So I would just encourage you to go to BeyondOrdinaryWomen.org, and just browse our resources for other things that you might find helpful.

So Laura, I’m excited about your book, and so I appreciate your taking the time to be with us today.

Laura >> Yeah, thanks for having me, Kay.

Kay >> Oh, you’re so welcome. And we’ll see you all next time.