To support our podcast and get every show ad-free, including subscriber-only shows, subscribe to The Athletic. Our listeners get 40% off the annual subscription. Start your free trial now at: theathletic.com/vancast. If you are already a subscriber, thank you for your support--please tell a friend.

To support our podcast and get every show ad-free, including subscriber-only shows, subscribe to The Athletic. Our listeners get 40% off the annual subscription. Start your free trial now at: theathletic.com/vancast. If you are already a subscriber, thank you for your support--please tell a friend.

To support our podcast and get every show ad-free, including subscriber-only shows, subscribe to The Athletic. Our listeners get 40% off the annual subscription. Start your free trial now at: theathletic.com/vancast. If you are already a subscriber, thank you for your support--please tell a friend.

To support our podcast and get every show ad-free, including subscriber-only shows, subscribe to The Athletic. Our listeners get 40% off the annual subscription. Start your free trial now at: theathletic.com/vancast. If you are already a subscriber, thank you for your support--please tell a friend.

To support our podcast and get every show ad-free, including subscriber-only shows, subscribe to The Athletic. Our listeners get 40% off the annual subscription. Start your free trial now at: theathletic.com/vancast. If you are already a subscriber, thank you for your support--please tell a friend.

To support our podcast and get every show ad-free, including subscriber-only shows, subscribe to The Athletic. Our listeners get 40% off the annual subscription. Start your free trial now at: theathletic.com/vancast. If you are already a subscriber, thank you for your support--please tell a friend.

To support our podcast and get every show ad-free, including subscriber-only shows, subscribe to The Athletic. Our listeners get 40% off the annual subscription. Start your free trial now at: theathletic.com/vancast. If you are already a subscriber, thank you for your support--please tell a friend.

To support our podcast and get every show ad-free, including subscriber-only shows, subscribe to The Athletic. Our listeners get 40% off the annual subscription. Start your free trial now at: theathletic.com/[showURL]. If you are already a subscriber, thank you for your support--please tell a friend.