Cece Xie is a lawyer, writer, and content creator who became wildly popular on social media while working as an associate at a big law firm. She joins Ben & Nathan to talk about her upcoming book. They discuss why law schools push students toward big law and what it takes to climb the law firm hierarchy.

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0:00 - Introducing Cece Xie - Ben and Nathan welcome Cece to the show and ask what she’s been up to after leaving her job in big law last year.

8:22 - Cece’s Book - Cece shares some details about her upcoming book: part memoir, part exposé of big law culture.

17:56 - The Big Law Pipeline - Cece describes the mutualistic relationship between law schools and big law recruiting. She warns listeners that career services offices don't have students’ best interests at heart. And neither do law firms.

27:48 - Thriving in Big Law - The skills that make you a good junior associate won’t help you make partner. Cece explains why business development is crucial to advancing your career in big law.

38:38 - Big Law Compensation - Cece breaks down the reality of big law compensation and explains why it’s less stable than many people think.

42:45 - Making Connections - Knowing the law gets you only so far in big law. Cece shares how a successful lawyer forms strategic connections within the firm’s hierarchy. She encourages listeners to schedule face time with lawyers to explore different practice areas.

55:11 - No More Ctrl+F - Starting with the August test, the LSAT will prohibit the use of keyboard commands, including Ctrl+F. Test takers will now have the option to use a search bar in the test interface. Nathan and Ben still don’t recommend using the search function.

Perfect accuracy on LSAT Reading Comprehension is within your reach. LSAT Demon teacher Chris Murphy joins Nathan to help listeners maximize their potential in RC. Chris and Nathan describe what confidence looks like in RC and why it’s crucial to success. They also praise the shift to online education, consider possible downsides to retaking the LSAT, and assess a Pearls vs. Turds candidate about leaving answer choices open.

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0:00 - August LSAT Pretest Pump-Up - Chris and Nathan invite August test takers to LSAT Demon’s Pretest Pump-Up on August 9. Come meet fellow test takers and get last-minute tips from LSAT Demon teachers. All you need to join is an LSAT Demon Free account.

3:27 - Online Law School - An anonymous listener worries that attending an online law school could hurt their networking opportunities. The guys explain why the opposite might actually be true. Nathan maintains that the future of law school and the legal profession is online.

31:48 - Building Confidence - An anonymous LSAT Demon student struggles to commit to answer choices in Reading Comprehension, frequently double-checking answer choices they’ve already eliminated. Nathan and Chris suggest how Anonymous can find some RC swagger.

47:14 - Perfect Accuracy in RC - Listener Joe has yet to achieve perfect accuracy on RC passages despite slowing down. Chris and Nathan remind Joe that slowing down is not enough. Start predicting answers, and embrace the idea that on Reading Comprehension, they’re all Must Be Trues.

57:12 - Downside to Retaking? - Is there ever a downside to retaking? Some listeners question Nathan and Ben’s recent advice about whether to retake a 174. Nathan reiterates that as long as law schools only care about your highest scores, there’s really only upside to retaking.

1:33:43 - Pearls vs. Turds - Chris and Nathan assess a student’s advice on not eliminating answer choices too quickly.

Diagramming in Logical Reasoning is time-consuming, confusing, and error-prone. Ben and Nathan advocate an intuitive approach to Logical Reasoning that promotes real understanding and long-term growth. In this week’s episode, the guys warn listeners of the perils of LR diagrams and demonstrate a commonsense alternative. Later, they recommend an ASAP approach to reviewing mistakes, discourage school list disclosures on applications, and advise students not to skip “hard” questions in timed sections.

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1:53 - Meditation - A listener praises LSAT Demon’s guided meditations and reminds fellow students to breathe.

3:31 - Don’t Diagram in LR - “It’s painful, boring, difficult, and confusing.” Nathan and Ben explain why they don’t diagram in Logical Reasoning. They demonstrate a more intuitive approach using an example from PrepTest J.

37:59 - Review Immediately - An anonymous LSAT Demon student struggles to explain their mistakes when reviewing questions they drilled hours earlier. Ben and Nathan insist on reviewing mistakes right away—especially in drilling.

45:24 - Where to Start? - Listener Aidan asks if he should master his strongest section before moving on to the other two. Nathan and Ben instruct Aidan to study all three sections from the start.

50:26 - Disclosing Your School List - Some law schools ask you to disclose the full list of schools to which you’re applying. The guys recommend that applicants leave this question blank if it’s optional. Your answer won’t help you, and it might hurt you.

55:35 - “Stated” Questions in RC - An anonymous Ask Button correspondent bemoans how long it takes them to answer Stated questions in Reading Comprehension. Ben and Nathan diagnose Anonymous’s problem: reading the passage too quickly.

1:08:26 - ChatGPT for Applications - In last week’s episode, LSAC’s Kyle McEntee suggested that some law schools will start asking applicants whether they used AI in the creation of their applications. Listener Fran asks why anyone would disclose this information if the schools can’t determine it on their own. Nathan and Ben discourage using ChatGPT for law school applications in the first place.

1:13:25 - Don’t Skip Questions - Skipping the hard questions isn’t just a bad strategy—it might not even be possible. The guys dismiss question-skipping as an unhelpful gimmick that stymies real progress.

1:18:00 - Soft Factors - Listener Noah asks whether his work experience will give him a leg up on other applicants with similar hard stats. Ben and Nathan advise Noah not to use strong softs as an excuse to slack off on the LSAT.

1:26:04 - Income-Driven Repayment - Listener Justin suggests a new consideration for the guys’ discussion about President Biden’s student loan debt forgiveness plan. Nathan and Ben are unswayed.

LSAC’s Kyle McEntee rejoins the pod to share info about LSAC’s resources for law school applicants. Kyle and the guys also discuss the recent Supreme Court ruling on affirmative action, the difficulty of fixing the problem of student loan debt, and law schools’ responses to applicants’ use of AI.

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0:57 - Admission Unmasked - Kyle introduces Admission Unmasked, a free program of live events and on-demand learning modules designed to help applicants navigate the law school admission process.

7:27 - Supreme Court Decision - Kyle shares his perspective on how the Supreme Court’s ruling on affirmative action will impact law school admissions: applicants shouldn’t let it affect where they apply.

11:01 - LSAC’s Mission - Kyle discusses LSAC’s mission to advance justice in the legal system and explains why the LSAT is a tool for equity in law school admissions. He points future law students to LSAC’s Ultimate Law School Prep course.

14:10 - Law School Forums - Kyle welcomes listeners to attend an upcoming LSAC Law School Forum. These forums give applicants a chance to meet directly with law school representatives and ask questions.

18:50 - Student Loan Debt - Kyle weighs in on the problem of law schools’ outrageous tuitions and argues that admissions officers share students’ concerns. Nathan and Ben emphasize the need for federal student loan reform—Kyle worries that capping student loans could hurt access and equity in college admissions.

34:09 - AI for Applications - Kyle urges caution to applicants using generative AI tools like ChatGPT. Law schools are still determining their policies regarding AI, and some schools may ask students whether they used AI to prepare their application materials.

45:17 - August LSAT Registration - Kyle provides an update on August LSAT registration. The registration system experienced some early glitches, but all tools are now back online and working.

53:22 - Income-Driven Repayment -

Ben and Nathan react to an article from Reason magazine claiming that President Biden’s new income-driven repayment plan will probably drive tuitions even higher. The guys expound on the perils of debt and warn applicants not to listen to advice that comes directly from law schools.

Freakonomics Radio, Ep. 377: The $1.5 Trillion Question: How to Fix Student-Loan Debt?

Beginning with the August LSAT, certain key words like “except” will be presented in lowercase bold rather than ALL CAPS. On this week’s episode, Ben and Nathan react to the change and give a crash course on how to approach these types of questions. The guys also discuss another perspective on affirmative action in college admissions, celebrate LSAT Demon students’ successes on the June LSAT, and implore listeners to turn off the clock while taking timed practice tests.

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1:45 - Affirmative Action - The guys discuss a New York Times opinion piece about the shortcomings of affirmative action for most college students.

25:06 - Changes to “Except” Questions - Nathan and Ben explain why they like the change to the presentation of “except” questions on the LSAT. They then share some tips on how to approach these types of questions.

40:26 - June LSAT Score Release - Listeners share their success stories from the June LSAT.

43:31 - Turn Off the Clock - Listener Ikey blames his inconsistency in RC for his disappointing score on the June LSAT. Ben and Nathan remind Ikey that it’s okay not to finish the section. Ikey should turn off the clock and commit to solving every question that he attempts.

50:31 - Ignore Game Types - Listener Steven’s habit of skipping “circle” games in his prep came back to haunt him on the June LSAT. Nathan and Ben encourage Steven to ignore game types and treat every logic game as a solvable puzzle.

57:58 - Full Rides and Stipends - Listener Parker asks for help assessing whether his local law school awards stipends in addition to full-tuition scholarships. The guys dig into the ABA 509 data, but they implore Parker to apply broadly and not to bank on a great offer from a single school.

1:12:39 - Don’t Skip Questions - Listener Angelica was taught to skip certain games and question types. Ben and Nathan reject this approach. They advise Angelica to answer the questions in order and not to worry about “pacing” strategies.

1:24:51 - Personal Statement Topic - Listener Jane worries that her law firm work experience is too generic to write about in her personal statement. Nathan and Ben assure Jane that “generic” isn’t a problem for law schools, who are in the business of producing Big Law worker bees.

1:31:13 - 3+3 Programs - The guys warn listeners against 3+3 programs that lock you into law school after only three years of undergrad.

1:37:39 - School Visits - Ben and Nathan advise listener Caleb to delay his law school visits until after he’s received his scholarship offers.

1:47:28 - Patent Law - Listener Jay asks whether it’s worth it to take some science classes as a step toward working in patent law. Nathan and Ben suggest that Jay instead find work in a law office to gauge his actual interest in legal practice.

Understanding the difference between necessary and sufficient is necessary—but not sufficient—for success on the LSAT. This week, Nathan and Ben illustrate the difference using some morbid examples of their own invention and a less gory one from PrepTest 65. Later, the guys examine a study that suggests that 76% of legal jobs are at risk of automation by AI. They weigh a listener’s chances of reaching the T14 with a 3.0 GPA. And they encourage applicants to treat their personal statement like a Tinder profile.

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4:41 - Sufficient vs. Necessary - Ben and Nathan evaluate an LSAT Demon student’s method of distinguishing sufficient conditions from necessary conditions.

12:13 - Example: Sufficient vs. Necessary - To illustrate sufficient and necessary conditions in action, Nathan and Ben attempt a Logical Reasoning question from PrepTest 65. Try the question for yourself here. Then listen to Ben and Nathan’s explanation.

25:01 - Slow Down to Speed Up - Listener Henry strives to focus on accuracy over speed. But his long-term goal of scoring in the 170s may be sabotaging his approach. The guys encourage Henry to slow down and focus on one question at a time.

33:18 - AI Replacing Lawyers? - Ben and Nathan examine a Yahoo! Finance article about the legal industry’s significant exposure to automation through AI tools like ChatGPT.

38:03 - T14 with a 3.0? - Listener Cassandra wonders whether her URM status could help her into a T14 school despite her mediocre GPA. The guys suspect that it will, but they question the importance of attending a T14 and advise Cassandra to apply broadly.

47:25 - How to Start Studying - Nathan and Ben direct a new student to their One-Hour LSAT study schedule for guidance on how to start studying. They explain why students benefit from taking timed sections in addition to drilling untimed questions from the beginning of their study.

58:10 - Applicants Without GPAs - Ben and Nathan suggest that an applicant’s LSAT score is even more important when that applicant lacks a traditional GPA.

1:01:10 - Create FOMO - The guys advise an anonymous listener to treat their personal statement like a Tinder profile: omit anything negative and stick to the stuff that’ll leave law schools with FOMO.

1:06:20 - Grade Point Median? - Nathan and Ben counsel listener Mike not to use an unconventional statistic in his GPA addendum.

1:11:31 - Student Loans and Tuition Hikes - The guys discuss a Washington Post opinion piece that examines how student loan programs have inflated college tuition.

Ben and Nathan weigh in on the Supreme Court’s ruling in Students for Fair Admissions v. Harvard, which bans the consideration of race as a specific factor in college admissions. The guys discuss what this might mean for future law school applicants. Read the Supreme Court’s opinion here.

To succeed in LSAT Logical Reasoning, you must learn to identify conclusions. On this week’s podcast, Ben and Nathan respond to Ask Button questions from students who struggled to distinguish conclusions from premises. The guys suggest three ways to find the main conclusion of an argument. Later, Ben and Nathan discuss how to apply Reading Comprehension skills to Logical Reasoning. They evaluate some dubious strategies for comparative passages in RC. And they answer a grab bag of admissions-related questions.

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0:56 - Identifying Conclusions and Premises -

Nathan and Ben demonstrate how to identify argument parts on two practice questions:

The guys discuss why it’s dangerous to rely on keywords alone and suggest three ways to spot conclusions in Logical Reasoning.

41:16 - Good at RC, Bad at LR - Reading Comprehension has always come naturally to listener Zachary, but he struggles with Logical Reasoning. Ben and Nathan suspect that Zachary isn’t reading arguments carefully enough. They encourage Zachary to find ways to treat LR like RC.

48:23 - Comparative Passages - The guys shoot down some bad strategies for comparative passages in Reading Comprehension.

55:50 - Make Time for the LSAT - Listener Chance asks for study tips for students whose busy schedules allow them to listen to lessons only while driving. Nathan and Ben remind Chance that some of his competitors find time to study consistently despite keeping even busier schedules. One high-quality hour a day is all you need.

1:01:59 - LSAC GPA vs. Transcript GPA - Ben and Nathan explain the difference between the GPA on your transcript and the GPA that LSAC reports to law schools.

1:04:10 - Legal Woes in Personal Statements - Nathan and Ben discourage an anonymous listener from writing about their past arrest in their personal statement. They advise Anonymous to relegate the topic to a character and fitness addendum and to treat their personal statement as their sales pitch.

1:11:14 - LOR Access Waiver - The guys advise listener Christian to waive his right to access his letters of recommendation. They warn Christian that if he feels the need to review his LORs, then he’s requesting them from the wrong people.

1:13:20 - From Lassos to Law School - Listener Jake asks whether law schools will appreciate his work history as a professional cowboy. Ben and Nathan discuss how Jake can make the most of his personal brand on his applications, but they remind him that soft factors are ultimately less important than LSAT and GPA.

LSAT Demon teacher Matt DuMont takes a break from bar prep to join Ben and Nathan for a deep dive into his law school experience. Matt shares insights into what future law students can expect and how they can set themselves up for success. Later, the guys break down the real-world benefits of LSAT prep, discuss whether applicants should care about school rankings, and consider the merits of a new alternative to the LSAT.

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2:10 - Matt’s Road to Maryland - Matt just graduated from the University of Maryland School of Law near the top of his class. Today, he turns back the clock to share his law school application journey and discuss how he ended up at the University of Maryland.

11:33 - The Matthew Effect - The Matthew Effect is the tendency for those with advantage to accrue even more advantage over time. Matt turned down higher-ranked schools to attend the University of Maryland on a full-ride scholarship. He explains the advantages of attending a school that invested in him, including having a leg up on his competition for top jobs. Graduating debt-free means he can pursue his public interest goals without the pressure of paying off student loans.

28:38 - Tips for Law School -

Matt answers a bevy of questions from listener Mike about law school, including how much reading to expect each week, which classes to take after 1L, how to maintain mental health, and more.

49:32 - Real World Benefits of LSAT Prep -

Listener Ryan describes how studying LSAT Logical Reasoning helped him tackle a big project at work. Matt confirms that the LSAT helps to prepare you for law school and legal practice.

55:30 - Does School Rank Matter? - Does it really matter where you attend law school as long as you earn your JD? The guys discuss job outcomes that students can expect from differently ranked schools and opine on when it’s useless to compare school ranks. They double down on their advice to choose the best law school you can attend for free.

1:03:18 - A New Admissions Test - An anonymous listener asks Ben and Nathan to weigh in on JD-Next, the new ABA-approved admissions test launched by the University of Arizona. The guys don’t see it replacing the LSAT any time soon.

As the fall semester approaches, incoming 1Ls may wonder how to prepare themselves for law school. On this week’s episode, Nathan and Ben are joined by Angela Vorpahl, creator of the Law School Master Plan. Angela lays out what new law students should (and shouldn’t) do to build the skills they’ll need throughout law school.

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0:00 - Testing Limits - Beginning with the August 2023 LSAT, test takers will no longer be restricted to three attempts per application cycle. You can take the LSAT up to five times in five years and seven times in a lifetime. Read LSAC’s policy on repeating the test here.

6:30 - What You Won’t Learn in Law School - Not only does law school not teach you what it takes to succeed in legal practice, it doesn’t teach you what it takes to succeed in law school. Angela Vorphal started her YouTube channel and consulting business to address that knowledge gap. She joins the guys to discuss why it’s crucial to go into law school with a plan to approach your study efficiently and with a focus on what really matters.

23:48 - How to Prepare for Law School - Angela explains why incoming law students should focus on strategies to hone their approach to law school rather than try to learn the substantive law on their own. Angela also shares some career development tasks that 1Ls can tackle to get a leg up on the competition.

52:53 - Application Timing - How late is too late to apply? Ben and Nathan double down on their advice to apply early. They implore students to decouple their LSAT study from any application timeline.