If AI is doing all the work — the writing, the research, the analysis — what happens to the people who are supposed to decide whether the work is any good?
Steve Cummins calls it the validator problem. And it’s not theoretical. It’s playing out right now in every marketing team handing a junior marketer an AI tool on day one and calling it onboarding.
In Part 2 of their conversation, Steve and Tim dig into the question that keeps Steve up at night: how do you build real marketing expertise when AI is doing the work you used to learn from? The answer isn’t what most people expect. It’s not about tools or frameworks. It’s about curiosity. And it turns out that’s much harder to teach than anyone wants to admit.
They also get into what actually changes a founder’s mind about focus, why the fractional marketing model is becoming essential for growth companies, and why simple still works even when the technology around it has gotten infinitely more complicated.
What You’ll Learn in This Episode
The validator problem. What is the validator problem? Why does it keep Steve up at night? And, most importantly, what does it mean for every marketing team hiring junior talent right now?The Foundation Capital workforce study. Four roles AI will need, and why one of them is already a problem.How do you become a good validator if you’ve never done the work yourself?Why curiosity is the single most important hiring attribute in an AI world. And why it’s almost impossible to teach.Hire for attitude, train for skill. What that actually means in practice.Why hiring only from within your industry is a mistake. What Tim’s experience in hospitality proves about starting with industry focus.The five whys and other frameworks. Build critical thinking regardless of which AI tool is dominant.What actually changes a founder’s mind about focus, tailored by personality typeThe fractional marketing model. What it is, what it isn’t, and why Steve avoids the "fractional CMO" labelOne final takeaway: Pick three things and do them wellThe Validator Problem
Foundation Capital identified four roles AI will need in the workforce: C-suite accountability, architects (who build the AI processes), relationship people (effectively salespeople), and validators. Those are the people who take AI output, iterate with it, check it, and validate it.
Steve’s concern: how do you get to be a good validator if you’ve never done the work yourself? The graphic designers and art directors who are genuinely good at their craft only got there by doing the grunt work and working their way up. Same with lots of other roles. If AI removes that learning layer, the risk isn’t replacement. Instead, it’s a tendency toward mediocrity, where validators who are "okay" at their job validate "okay" output, and nobody ever gets better.
Steve’s three-part answer:
Be critical while you work, not after. Don’t let the AI run in a black box and deliver output to you. Interrogate it as it works. Claude will show you its reasoning process. Read it and learn from it.Run your own experiments. Start doing things you don’t fully know how to do yet. You won’t be great at it. That’s the point. That’s how you learn what good looks like.Ask the right questions as a manager. Middle managers who push their teams to explain their reasoning, "why did you set it up that way, what context did you give it, what questions did you ask?”, are the ones who will develop genuine validators rather than AI button-pressers.The Fractional Marketing Model — And Why Steve Avoids "Fractional CMO"
Most growth companies need marketing strategy much earlier than they can afford a full-time marketing leader. That’s the gap the fractional model fills. Not just a consultant who writes a report and throws it over the fence, but someone embedded with the company a day or two each week, driven by their success, who knows the people and can bring a higher level of strategic thinking than a seed or Series A startup could otherwise access.
Steve’s issue with "fractional CMO" as a label: most small growth companies don’t need a CMO. A CMO deals with the board and investors. What they need is someone who can do the planning and roll their sleeves up. And too many people on LinkedIn calling themselves fractional CMOs have never even been a VP of marketing, let alone a CMO… or are simply doing consulting while they wait for a full-time job, which is a different thing entirely.
The real value of the fractional model is continuity. Being part of a team’s growth process over time, not just dropping in with an ICP, a couple of recommendations, and then moving on.
Resources Mentioned
Co-Intelligence: Living and Working with AI by Ethan MollickRange by David EpsteinSteve Cummins on LinkedInThe Marketing Mix Newsletter on SubstackSolent StrategiesRelated Episodes
Steve Cummins: You Have to Start on Rented Land. Here’s What to Build While You’re There. — Part 1 of 2 (Episode 503)Google Didn’t Kill Blogging. It Killed Borrowed Brand Equity. (Episode 502)The AI Winners Didn’t Pivot. They Prepared. — Digital Reset Foundations (Episode 501)The Complete Roadmap for Owning Your Customer — Part 3 of 3 (Episode 500)Who Really Owns Your Customer? — Part 2 of 3 (Episode 499)The Real Cost When You Don’t Own Your Customer — Part 1 of 3 (Episode 498)Google Search Hit an All-Time High… And It’s Costing You (Digital Reset 495)The Long Game: What 15 Years of Digital Marketing Teaches Us About AI (Digital Reset Episode 489)Buy the Book — Digital Reset: Driving Marketing and Customer Acquisition Beyond Big Tech
Tim Peter has written a new book called Digital Reset: Driving Marketing Beyond Big Tech. You can learn more about it here on the site. Or buy your copy on Amazon.com today.
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Watch Tim Peter and Steve Cummins on the validator problem, why curiosity is the most important hiring attribute in an AI world, and why simple marketing still works, even when the technology has gotten infinitely more complicated.
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Transcript: Steve Cummins: If AI Is Doing All the Work, Are You Building Skills or a House of Cards? — Part 2 of 2 (Episode 504)
Last week, Steve Cummins and I talked about where the owned channel argument breaks down, how a marketing team of one actually uses AI day-to-day, and why you might have to start on rented land, but also need to be deliberate about what you build while you’re there.
This week, Steve and I get into something I’ve been thinking about for a long time and something that Steve calls the validator problem. Here it is in the simplest terms I can put it in. You know, if AI is doing more and more of the actual work, the writing, the research, the analysis, what happens to the people who are supposed to evaluate whether the work is any good? How do they build their skills?
This is not just about theory. This is playing out right now in every marketing team hiring a junior marketer and handing them an AI tool on day one. Steve has strong views on what that means for the people coming up in their careers, for their leaders, and for what curiosity actually means as a hiring attribute this year and down the road.
This is part two of my interview with Steve Cummins. I’m Tim Peter. This is the Digital Reset Podcast. Let’s dive in.
Probably the most misunderstood part of my book — and there’s probably something in this to the way I put it together — is, you know, I talk about Big Tech gatekeepers and how gatekeepers gonna gate and things like that. And I think people hear that and think it means you shouldn’t work with Google or you shouldn’t work with Meta or you shouldn’t work with LinkedIn or whatever the case is. And the subtitle of the book says "Beyond Big Tech," right? It doesn’t mean instead of Big Tech, right? Of course you’re gonna show up on Google. Of course you’re going to show up on the social media channels that are appropriate to your audience and your business and the like. That is a given. It is what do you do in addition to that that allows you to grow a customer base over the longer term…
Yeah, it’s, it’s table stakes, right?
It’s table stakes, 100%, yeah.
It’d be great if you could exist without them, but obviously they’re going to be a big part of business for — and that’s the first thing you gotta establish.
The other frustration I have when I first talk to founders — nearly every time, you know, I say, "What have you done for marketing?" They say, "Well, we did some Google Ads, but it didn’t really work out," right? Um, and I think because Google Ads is, once you’ve got a website and all that, Google Ads is the next easiest and the next — of course — um, but as with all these things, there’s a skill to it. You have to invest a decent amount of money to make it worthwhile. You have to have focus and all that. But it’s sort of like a bingo card when I’m talking to a founder for the first time. It’s like, at what point is he gonna bring up Google Ads?
I wanna go back to your point about wearing different hats and especially earlier in your career, ’cause I wanna dive into this in just a second. Um, I love to tell the story about when I started my career. I actually worked for Charles Schwab during the dot-com boom. That’s a story I’ve told people for years. But one of the things I loved about the job was because it was the dot-com boom and because I was early in my career — you know, much like you were talking about, the advice you give about AI this month versus two months ago versus two months from now might change — the early days of the internet, the early days of the web, the early days of digital was a very similar thing. And what I loved about my experience at Schwab more than anything else was every three months there was a new opportunity to learn and grow, right? There was an opportunity to do something different, and it helped me a lot in my career.
It has helped me a lot in my career, that in those early days, you know, something new would come up and it’s like, "We’re gonna talk about search." And I’d go, "Oh, I wanna do that." And then, you know, they were like, "We’re gonna talk about email marketing." And I was like, "Oh, I wanna do that. Oh, we’re gonna talk about…" And I’m like, "I wanna do…" You know, just raising your hand. And I was probably the second or third worst at everything in the company, right? Like, you know, ’cause there were people who were really good at one specific thing. But because I was the second or third or fourth person at all of those things, I could backfill anybody. And it made me very employable over the course of my career ’cause I can go, "Oh, wait a second, I actually know something about this. Oh, I know something about this." Obviously, you tend to get more specialized at a middle part of your career. But for sure, it was definitely something that worked to my advantage, I think.
Um, so to this point of people early in their career — and I know this is something that is very, very near and dear to your heart at the moment — you know, you wrote that the validator problem keeps you up at night, right? How do people build expertise, um, early in their career specifically if AI is doing all the work?
Uh, I think about this one all the time, you know. But if you’re a one-person team using AI to cover channels that they don’t fully understand, are they building capabilities? Are they building for their long-term growth? Or are they building a house of cards?
Yeah. So it’s been rattling around in my head for a while. I was in a session, they were talking about this study that had been put together by Foundation Capital, and there was a lot about the future workforce, but they identified four roles that they thought were gonna be needed, right? So first is the C-suite or chief accountability officer, to give direction and talk to the investors and all that. The architects, so how to build out these processes and build out these AI agents. Relationship people, so salespeople effectively, and then validators. So the idea that you’re running all these agents, you get output from them, and then these validators are the ones that take that, iterate with it, check it, validate it effectively.
Sort of the QA people, the quality assurance.
Yeah, absolutely. That’s probably not the right term, but functionally they’re the quality assurance.
My concern — I have a lot of concerns with that, but one of my big concerns is how do you get to be a good validator if you’ve never done the work yourself, right? It’s worried me for years ’cause I work with a lot of graphic designers, art directors. Some very good ones, but they only get to be good by doing the grunt work and the junior work and working their way up. So if we’re now taking out that level of experience, how do you ever get to be good? And then my fear with that is, well, then you just tend towards mediocrity because all of the validators are gonna be okay at their job, so they’re gonna validate okay stuff. So that was the theory behind it.
Um, so I think there’s a few things that you can do. One is when you’re using these AI tools, be very critical about them, right? So don’t set it up to do something and then let it do its thing in a black box and then deliver it to you. While you’re doing it, interrogate the AI, right? I’ll go back to, uh, to your potential sponsor, Anthropic. Um, you have to expand it in most cases, but it will tell you the process that it’s going through to do something, right? So you can look at that and learn from it.
You can run your own experiments. Before AI, if you can remember such a time, I always used to be a fan of — I don’t know what I’m doing, but I’m gonna start anyway. I won’t be great at it. I guess this is your third and fourth best argument, right? I’m gonna learn as I do it, and it would then lead me to one of two things. Ideally, if I’m in a growth company, once I’ve done the basics and set up — let’s say it’s search — I can then hire somebody in to actually take it over and do it better. But I’ve learned more about it. I know who I need to hire. I’ve kind of set it up and kind of modeled the behavior for that person to come in. The other way that it helped me — I would come and hire somebody like you, Tim, which I have done in the past, to come and help me with SEO. But I know enough to talk to you knowledgeably about it, make sure that I’m bringing in the right person, and then have a good conversation about it, right? So how do we get people to that level?
And it’s curiosity. I hate to say this because that’s an undefinable thing, and I don’t know how you train people to do it. Um, you gotta be curious. You can’t put something into a black box, take out the answer, and go, "Okay, move on." Um, I think when I’ve managed people or mentored people, you get people to that point just by asking a lot of questions, right? Like, "Why did you do that? How did you do that? Did you think about doing this?" And you build that up. So I think a lot of it’s gonna be driven by, for as long as they exist, middle managers, to make sure that it’s not just "the machine has given me this answer," but, well, "why did you set it up that way? You know, what context, what questions did you give it?" And for certain things, I think you’re gonna be looking for people that have an interest in their own lives, right? So somebody’s an artist in their spare time? Well, they’re probably gonna be a good validator for graphic design. But the medals are gonna go to those who are curious and those who are willing to play around and dig into the details.
Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense. I think that’s right. You know, I picked this up a long time ago — this probably was Schwab, actually, where they always talked about you hire for attitude and you train for skill, right? You look for people who have the right kinds of attitudes of "I wanna learn. I wanna grow. I wanna find out new things." Um, and that has served obviously me well in my career, but also me well in finding people who were like-minded — not in the sense of a homogeneity of thought, but in the sense of having people who also shared certain values and certain kinds of approaches to things.
I think that makes a ton of sense. It drives me nuts. I’ve worked for a number of companies that only want to hire people from within the industry, basically — particularly in sales. An awful lot in sales. I’ve always been of the mindset, find me a good salesperson and I can teach them the ins and outs of the industry any day over someone who’s been selling the same stuff for a different company for the last 10 years. But it’s a mindset. I think a lot of people who have only been in one industry just assume that there is some unique magic about it. I think actually the opposite is true. Bringing in outside views is a lot healthier for sure.
When I first moved into the hotel industry, you know, having come from first working in recording studios and then working for Charles Schwab, when I first moved into the hotel industry, I actually encountered a fair bit of that — both from people in the company who were like, "Well, you couldn’t know this. You don’t know anything about the hotel industry." And also when I wanted to hire people to bring in who I knew had specific skills in the early days of digital — with nothing but love and respect for many of the people I worked with — the hotel industry as a whole in hospitality were terrible at internet. I mean, they just were really, really… and genuinely, you know, there’s a reason why the Expedias of the world and the Booking.coms of the world and people like that got so big was because that’s what they actually focused on. Whereas the hotel industry, that wasn’t what they did, right? They just weren’t tech savvy as companies.
The other thing I would encourage people to do all the time — and it sounds like you do the same thing — is look to frameworks that encourage critical thinking. You know, I’m a big fan of the five whys, right? You know, why did this thing happen. Why did it happen? Okay, well, why did that happen? Well, why did that happen, right? And you just keep going deeper till you find a lever you can pull, until you really understand it.
Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense. I think that’s right. And those frameworks are valid whatever you’re working on. Um, so yeah, getting into that mindset.
The other thing I talk about a lot is books, right? Which is not an exciting area for a lot of people. I used to, in my interviews, when I was interviewing people, I used to always ask them, "Tell me about a good book that you’ve read?" And I gave up because the number of people where I’d get the deer in the headlights, and then they’d start telling me about a blog that they’d read or something. But I actually think books are having a little bit of a resurgence. The trick with that is a lot of these books can get outdated pretty quickly. So look for ones that are more about a framework or process. Um, a book that you and I, I think both like is by Ethan Mollick — he wrote it think three years ago now. He didn’t write about AI as it was at that moment. He wrote about the concepts behind it and how we should be thinking about it. Uh, I think there’s something in there about treating it like an alien. Still valid, right? So searching for those kinds of books that are about the frameworks and the mindsets — I think that’s another smart way to keep up with things.
Yeah, I apologize for the aside. I don’t wanna take what little time we have left for this, but just real quick — the mistake I made with the first draft of the book was it was much more about "how" as opposed to "how to think," right? Because literally I would write a chapter and an hour later some news story would break and I’d be like, "Well, there goes that chapter in the trash," right? Like, it just took me a long time to figure out, oh, I get how you actually write a book that actually has some potential staying power.
I’m told the second book is much easier, Tim, so you’ll be fine.
I’m so sorry. I had a minor stroke there. I’ll be fine though. Um, all right.
I think we’ve kind of covered this a little bit, but, you know, we’ve both watched either well-funded companies or frankly companies that wish they were better funded try to spread their bets across every channel and call it a strategy. You know, what is the conversation that actually changes a founder or a CEO or the head of marketing — what changes their mind about focus, right? What drives the moment that matters in the room?
Yeah, I think a lot of it depends on the personality of that founder, CEO, VP, whatever it may be. So a lot of the founders I work with are product people, right? They are engineers, developers, or what have you. So in those cases, the conversation is, "Well, think about a product. Do you develop every feature you want in parallel at the same time? Or do you build a roadmap and you prioritize based on urgency, customer request," whatever it may be. So that might resonate with them. It’s like, "Oh yeah, you’re right. We shouldn’t be trying to do TikTok and Twitter and LinkedIn ads and events and podcasts." So that can hit sometimes.
Um, if it’s someone with more of a sales background, you know, "How did you get your first five customers? Was it by going and talking to everybody you’d ever met?" No. It was by identifying the specific group of people that are likely to buy and then targeting in on that. So I think you have to appeal to whatever their background is.
Now, if it’s a VP of marketing, CMO, whatever, it’s a little tougher. I think you have to understand why they feel as though they need to do everything, and it could be because of pressure from the top. It could be because they have not stopped and thought about what are they truly trying to achieve and who are their customers, right? So, you know, as marketers, we always talk about the ICP, right? The ideal customer profile. I tend to be dismissive of a lot of marketing theory because in startups you gotta move quick and you can’t spend a whole lot of time doing strategy. But the ICP makes a lot of sense ’cause it saves you an awful lot of time, both in targeting who you’re speaking to and where you’re spending your money. So I would always start out with that.
And it may be that for a head of marketing who’s all over the place, they haven’t done that or in a lot of cases I find they haven’t been allowed to do that. And sometimes coming in as a consultant from the outside, you are enabled to do that. You can say the thing that needs to be said. I think a lot of small companies used to just be so focused on the tactics, and they are now realizing you do have to have, albeit a thin layer of strategy or planning at the top, because marketing is so diverse now, right? And the other thing is, if it’s somebody that’s, funny you — you just talk about money. Like, where do you want to spend those resources? If you’re gonna give X amount of money and you want to have impact, you gotta tell me which of these three things we go spend it on. So I always bring it back to the three things. Let me do three things really well, and then we’ll worry about the other 20 things on your list.
Well, you know what I love about that story, Steve? It demonstrates why you are a great marketer. It demonstrates why I wanted you on the show, honestly — is that you’re modeling the very behavior you talk about as a marketer. You’re meeting the person you’re talking to where they are. You’re speaking in their language. You’re framing the problem in a way that resonates in their own language, right? Which is what we’re supposed to do as marketers and sometimes accomplish.
Well, and I think it helps. I started out as an engineer, right? I did not start out as a marketer. I worked for a GM once, and he would constantly point out that he was the only one in the room that had a marketing degree. I have an engineering degree, right? Um, but it does give you a different perspective, right? I mean, it helps me working with tech companies because I can grasp the technology fairly quickly, but I think it does also help that I haven’t always thought like a marketer, right? So it does make it a little bit easier to sort of put yourself in different frames.
Steve, one of the things I genuinely enjoy about our conversations is we could talk forever, frankly. And every time we talk, it’s like, why don’t we do this more often?
100%. So, to that point, what haven’t we talked about? What haven’t I asked you that you wished I had?
Well, I thought we might talk about AEO or GEO or whatever — having said that, not sure I want to talk about it because it is this minefield, and you are way more knowledgeable on it than I am. So I’m not gonna ask you to talk about that.
The one thing that I am seeing, which maybe others aren’t, is that there is a shift in expectations for marketing. And I think part of it is because of AI. I think part of it is just a general higher level awareness of what marketing is and what marketing can do. But, you know, what it’s meant for me is most of my career was running corporate teams. You know, I ran marketing at a division of Panasonic for a while. I’ve done it with smaller startup companies. But what I’ve realized is a lot of companies need marketing and marketing strategy much earlier than they can typically afford to do it.
Typically, companies would get into that — well, at some point I’m gonna be able to hire a director of marketing, VP of whatever, right? But oftentimes it was too late. Like, you need to start building that awareness much sooner than they were able to do.
Um, so this new model — a lot of people call it fractional CMO. I don’t like that phrase, um, for a couple of reasons. But this idea of being able to hire somebody on a part-time basis — so typically, when I work with companies, it’s a day a week. So what it means is I’m not there as a consultant, you know, writing a report and throwing it over the fence — I’m embedded with a company. I’m driven by their success. I know what’s going on. I know the people. And I can bring in that higher level of thinking than typically a startup — you know, a seed or even Series A startup — isn’t able to do. But I’m also not really a pure strategist, right? I can do the strategy, I can put together a plan, but I also am somebody that wants to execute on it, right?
Um, so that model, I think, is really helpful for growth companies. The way I often phrase it is, it’s for companies that know they need to do more with marketing, but don’t really know where to start. And if you hire a junior marketer, they are gonna tell you to do whatever the thing is that they know how to do, right? When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
So I think it’s an interesting shift. It’s somewhat self-serving ’cause it’s what I’ve chosen to do. But one of the reasons I chose to do it is I have a low boredom threshold. I like to be involved in a lot of different things. And I’ve always got excited at this early stage of growth. I think it’s great to be able to help companies at that level of growth hopefully sort of get off the launchpad quicker.
Just quickly on my thing about fractional CMO — I don’t like it for a couple of reasons. One is most companies, at least smaller growth companies, they do not need a CMO. A CMO is all about strategy, dealing with the board, dealing with investors, whatever it may be. What they need is a director, or whatever — somebody who can do the planning and roll their sleeves up.
The other thing that drives me absolutely crazy, Tim, and this is LinkedIn again — the number of people I see on there that say they’re a fractional CMO, and oftentimes it’s one of two things. One, they’ve never been a CMO, never even been a VP of marketing, right? But, you know, they did a bit of marketing. And the other thing that drives me nuts is they’re actually not a fractional CMO. They’re somebody who is looking for a job, wants some consulting between times. I have no problem with that, but part of the value of a fractional CMO is you can be there through the growth curve of somebody, and if you’re looking for a job as well, you know, you’re not gonna be able to do that. As soon as you find a job, you’re gonna move on. Again, if you want to do consulting, have at it. But I truly believe the fractional marketing approach is about becoming part of a team and being a part of their growth process — and not just dropping in saying, "Oh, here’s your ICP. Here’s a couple of things you should be doing," and then moving on.
I love the rant. I agree with the rant 100%. I think you know my favorite clients are the clients that have been long-term engagements. My oldest client — one of the reasons, not one of the reasons, but a reason that I talk about hotels so often is my oldest client is a group of hotels. They’ve been a client literally since a week before I opened the door. 15 years now, right? Um, and it’s exactly that.
And it’s funny you tell the story about people who are just doing this while they’re waiting for a job. I literally had somebody ask me in the earliest stages of starting consulting — "Well, the reason we’re not sure we want to hire you is you’re just doing this till you get a real job, right?" And I was like, "No, I actually did this on purpose. This is what I wanted to do." But it took a little bit of time to convince people that that was actually intentional and not just doing this until a better gig comes along. I’m like, "No, this is the better gig."
And it’s tough. I mean, I still — I’ve been doing this three, four years now, and I still get the question from people. It’s like, "But if they offered you a full-time job, you’d take it, right?" "No. This is what I wanna do. This is what I enjoy doing." And there’s risks. There’s risks with everything, right? But no, this is what I chose to do. Um, and the other side I’ll say is it’s a tough job market out there, so in no way am I saying anything against anyone doing what they need to do. It’s the terminology and the approach is all I’m talking about.
No, that makes perfect sense. That makes perfect sense.
So I’ve got three — these are quick questions, we’ll wrap up here. But, uh, you know, first, just based on what you talked about — Steve, I think you know I’m a big fan of your work. I’m a big fan of what you do. I’m a big fan of the way you think about this, and I know you’re of great help and service to the clients you work with and the like. So I wanna help you actually find more people who are looking for that. Where can people learn more about you and all the great work you do?
Well, that’s very kind of you, Tim. Um, despite what I’ve said about LinkedIn, LinkedIn is still the "find me." Um, and I was one of those early adopters. My LinkedIn handle is actually just my name. It’s not SteveCummins73X12. It’s actually just Steve Cummins.
Um, the other thing I would say is — you said some nice things about my newsletter. It goes out every two weeks, talking primarily about B2B marketing. There’s been a lot of AI stuff in there recently, but I typically sort of tell a story about something that I’ve been dealing with, um, and then I also include what I’ve been reading this week, so I put a link out to something that I think is interesting for people. So it’s a Substack newsletter — if you just go to Substack, search either for my name or The Marketing Mix, which is the name of the newsletter. If you subscribe for that, I would be thrilled, and you’ll get a letter from me every two weeks.
Perfect. Perfect. And there will be links to all of those in the show notes, both on the website and on YouTube. But I love that it’s called The Marketing Mix because you’re also a bit of a mixologist. You’re somebody who really enjoys cocktails. So what’s your go-to recommendation for folks to enjoy during the summer for a cocktail?
I do. So I should have said, the last thing on every one of my newsletters is a cocktail that I’ve either enjoyed or am recommending. Um, and there’s a marketing tip for you. The reason I put it in there is to give people an excuse to open the newsletter every week. And the number of people I run into that say, "Oh, you know, I saw your cocktail this week;” I don’t know if they’ve read the rest of it, but they always scroll down to the bottom.
Um, so, you know, summer cocktail, something called a Hugo Spritz, ’cause it’s very refreshing. It’s low alcohol. Um, so it’s basically prosecco, it’s elderflower liqueur — the St-Germain stuff you see in these funky bottles — a little bit of soda water, some mint if you’ve got it. Um, really nice and refreshing. My other go-to cocktail — I have a lot of go-to cocktails — since I suspect a lot of people who listen to this may be road warriors as well, my travel cocktail, which is also refreshing, nobody can screw this up and you can get it on pretty much any airline, is scotch and ginger ale.
Because, you know, you can’t screw it up. It’s pretty light, and that’s my go-to. When I get on a plane, that’s my mental thing of relaxing. If I get one of those then I’m good.
I do a bourbon and ginger, but yeah, it’s… you’re never gonna go wrong, right?
Well, Steve, this has been just… first of all, it’s always a delight getting to catch up with you. It’s always a joy to chat. I’m glad we’re able to share it with folks this time around. But we’ve talked about a lot of things today. You know, if there was just one takeaway from today’s discussion that you’d like the audience to hear, what would that be?
Yeah. I would say most of the stuff that you are reading about marketing and what you should be doing is intended for companies that have teams of five or 10 marketing people, right? And there are so many marketers out there that are a team of one, and they’re gonna feel as though, "Oh, I gotta be doing all of this," right? So the first thing to remember is a lot of these people have colleagues either side of them that are taking care of the blocking and tackling, which is you know, you’re also having to do.
Um, and then allied with that is this whole idea of just pick three things. Just pick three things and do them well. It’s not to say you don’t do any of the other stuff, but block out your calendar, make sure every week you’re doing something on those three things and building momentum and moving it forward. Marketing does not have to be as complicated as people think it is. You can make it very complicated, but the basics — like putting a cocktail recipe at the end of my newsletter — the basics still work. The technology around it’s gotten more complicated, but you know, just keep it simple. At least start simple.
What a great place to wrap up. Steve Cummins, it is again a joy to get to spend some time with you. Thank you so much for your time and for a great conversation, and we’ll chat soon.
Always a pleasure. Thank you, Tim.
If you want even more from Steve — and you should — you can find him in the same two places as last week. The Marketing Mix newsletter goes out every two weeks on Substack. Search Steve Cummins or The Marketing Mix, or you’ll find the link in the show notes. And yes, there’s a cocktail recommendation at the end of every issue, which based on the conversation Steve and I had today, I can confirm is really well-informed. If you want to work with Steve directly, you can find him on LinkedIn or at Solent Strategies. All the links, as always, are in the show notes.
This interview wraps up what I think has been a really solid stretch of episodes for the show. Uh, we started with the gatekeeper problem in episode 498. We worked through the roadmap in episodes 499 and 500, took a look at the historical view in episode 501, and validated it with Daniel Stanica’s research in episode 502. Now Steve has given us the practitioner’s view of what it all means for the people actually running marketing teams right now. Fun stuff for me, hopefully super useful for you.
I’ll be back next week with another episode. In the meantime, if you know a marketing leader who’s wrestling with what AI means for their team, send them this conversation — both parts of it. They’ll thank you for it.
You can find the show notes for today’s episode at timpeter.com/podcasts.
And if you’re ready to go deeper on building a brand that customers will ask for by name, my book, "Digital Reset: Driving Marketing and Customer Acquisition Beyond Big Tech," is the roadmap you need. You’ll find it on amazon.com and bookshop.org, and the links, of course, in the show notes.
Thank you so much for listening today and every week. I genuinely appreciate all of your support, and I would not do this show without you. Until next time, please be well, be safe, and as always, be excellent to each other. I’ll see you soon.
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The Brief: Get the weekly email that turns these strategic ideas into actionable demand. Subscribe to The Digital Reset BriefThe Book: Master the framework with Digital Reset: Driving Marketing and Customer Acquisition Beyond Big Tech. Buy the BookThe Experience: Need a bespoke digital strategy for your hotel, resort, SaaS firm, or financial services firm? Tim Peter & Associates can help you. Work with Tim The post Steve Cummins: If AI Is Doing All the Work, Are You Building Skills or a House of Cards? — Part 2 of 2 (Digital Reset Episode 504) appeared first on Tim Peter & Associates.